# messages

type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:03:15
content:
  I was gokng with rucio's group, we had it public, though it was in the evening. 19:00 EST on weekdays IIRC. Time negotiation can be a bit of a difficulty.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:04:01
content:
  I don't remember the weekend times because that's when my bukld group was meeting for our projects XD


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:13:52
content:
  They do. I don't think we can rush it though. At least not without giving up the ground-up organizational aspects I personally am invested in. I do recognize that's my particular interest, but I do think that there needs to be a project that provides that for the health of the 'metaverse' ecosystem.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:25:18
content:
  Community driven development, moderation, etc. with the specific freedoms of self-hosting preserved. Like, ideally, anyone should be able to spin up their own servers and moderate them how they'd see fit (not where we are now, at least not in a user friendly way).


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:26:52
content:
  (We /can/ technically host an entirely 'off grid' neos session, but not without handling discovery out of band.)


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:29:10
content:
  yeah I know thats the elephant in the room. and afaik it's already proven to be fine to have parallel crowds in the game. Currently there's furries and japanese


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:30:36
content:
  so I dunno, if "secondlife moms" or Horizon boomers became a group in Neos I dont see that being an issue either


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:31:25
content:
  The language barrier there is the primary thing. They've got to be mostly self-sufficient. I do think that's a good model long term though.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:32:23
content:
  yeah, so its like the groups couldnt be anymore culturally divided so to speak, but it works very well


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:34:42
content:
  I feel this too, and the effects of popular western rhetoric harming them with NCR too. Where they dont have this anticrypto zeitgeist and might not understand that voices in the community were calling for them to have their purchases rendered useless under their very noses


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:35:46
content:
  Not really. I just think it's natural to recognize that various social groups are going to have differing social norms. I'd like to see that recognized structurally. A general network TOS is fine, i guess, but i think it's important to give communities the tools for self-moderation. Any monolithic community management strategy is going to fail my sniff test if it's the only strategy.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:38:07
content:
  The only way you get that kind of consideration IMO is by soliciting active participation from the community in their own affairs. Otherwise it's a bit of an armchair exercise.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:40:11
edit_date: 2022-05-12 10:40:59
content:
  well you said it.. But so should Neos development be somewhat directed by the community? and then what is the "community" because according to them it isn't me. And if its lead by the loudest voices do they get to vote away my principles for what I want Neos to be?


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:48:48
content:
  Honestly IMO it's not currently there. I'd much rather see NEOS as an open source project long term. I am concerned by the potential of exactly what you are describing. At the moment we are dependant on one network of services. Community isn't a monolithic concept, and I'd rather see that reflected in how things are structured. At the moment the best I can do is try and get the hodgepodge of our community management at a more representative ratio, but I'd really, really prefer we didn't have the power imbalance that the single service provider model has.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:48:54
content:
  I guess the vague point I'm making is Neos gets the luxury of saying it's all these things that it isn't yet, and at times doesn't seem to be heading toward.. and that community development really just means Froox and his friends (which I guess is fine enough as they were there first) which is a vague distinction that doesnt seem to mean anything, specially when the community grows


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:51:41
content:
  The biggest thing there right now for me is that the majority of the staff are community members and are still in active conversation and beholden therein. As the organization scales that will likely not be enough.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:52:38
edit_date: 2022-05-12 10:53:36
content:
  yeah I dont want to see that power balance either.. which is why I don't really agree with the SecondLife model they seem to want to take.. and that decision seems to be based off the "community's" desire to... avoid a subsection of the community...


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:53:59
content:
  I honestly just think it's because that's what they are used to. My specific hill isn't that hill though so *shrug*


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:56:23
content:
  Maybe alittle, but I think we both know why they want to go that route. Its to avoid crypto. And to avoid crypto, they say, is to avoid certain outsiders from coming in and getting the luxury of making decisions


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:57:04
content:
  so like... the community gets to excise members of the community they dont like so what even is the community in this "community development"


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 11:09:30
content:
  I don't know, honestly. There are definitely loud people who don't like 'crypto' the end. I can only speak to my own concerns, and those are more in avoiding a massive influx of the wider internet culture. Not 'normies' but more the terminally online culture of Twitter, 4chan, Tumblr, etc. Turf wars suck, but they especially suck when they aren't even over your turf :P That is my specific interest in keeping a 'Neos culture' even though I recognize it's not desirable to have a monolithic community. I view a lot of those platforms as toxic and the behaviors required to exist in them as maladaptive, having a distinction that those are not the norms used in this space is important to me.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 11:16:12
content:
  There are plenty of 'normies' that use neos as an educational product. I get the feeling that XYZ groups are hostile to 'normies' but uh. We are used in trade demo contexts as well as education. Not to mention the Meta Movie project. Have you had the opportunity to participate in the Meta movie project?


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 13:52:41
content:
  Well that didn't take long to prove my previous arguments... so basically, Neos is basically a terrible place for everyone because of its own creation system? Users (non creators) simply cannot tolerate, by your definition, any complexity, even if it doesn't effect them? I mean, that is possible.
  Even with the UI system being another concern (no one is going to argue that), you still seem fixated on a particular culture, when to even use Neos... what you described is non-exclusive.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 14:06:00
content:
  here are the hurdles as I can see them:
  1) UI intuitiveness isn't the best. Most other systems that do well have good labeling and assistance measures like tooltips. Of course, this also would be difficult to get going, due to the many translations Neos has, so adding additional help layers also means adding additional translations. In addition, creating a unified UI library is always a struggle, since you have to accomidate for everything the older system could already do, but also do it in a way more can recognize.
  2) While it is fair to point out that Neos offers financial incentive, it also must acknowledge that VRC already HAS financial incentive, albeit indirectly. Most resources on VRC that are purchased come from Gumroad, Booth, maybe a Patreon and maybe an itch.io page. All these services allow easy ability to purchase and receive earnings. If NCR has any hope of being successful, THAT is what it is competing with. If the process is more complicated, creators will simply not bother. (This has happenned before on the previous platform I worked for, and it is a MAJOR reason the platform failed.)
  3) In addition, Neos itself, despite any financial standpoint, must compete with delivery of content. Jump on VRC, and you'll find people putting up with Unity SDK's mega download, the constant changing VRC SDKs, and the importing process that previously involved importing several libraries and shader packages. In otherwords, people had to jump through a lot of hoops just to access the content. However, this content is already packaged and prepared by the creator. This is where Neos begins to crumble, since there are no ways to package and deliver content in a similar way. If Neos is to do well, it has to compete with the setup process for a traditional VRChat creation process. If it's too complicated for creators or is a hassle to deliver content, they will stick with VRChat and Chillout. If users getting their purchases requires them to drag floating hands and having no advertised features working right away, they'll ask for a refund.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 14:09:38
content:
  TLDR:
  1) UI is going to be a pain to fix, but is indeed an issue.
  2) VRChat already has financial incentives, so you have to compete with what already exists and do better.
  3) You also have to compete with content delivery and content preparation that VRC already has. Too complicated to bring in and deliver to paying customers, and content creators won't bother. Too difficult to bring in and inability to access advertised features, and buyers will demand refunds.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 14:43:27
content:
  You /can/ package things for neos. The two methods I've seen are: 1) linking to a public folder or 2) packaging the bjson description of the object, though this is a bit more technically involved (though a mod exists to simplify it)


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 14:53:34
content:
  Yeah. Neos is great, but now I’m not sure about Neos future unless they solve their founders problems, get big money from VC and hire great designers and engineers.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 14:54:03
content:
  1) No... it's a hurdle, but it's one of the hurdles. Language binding is a fickle thing, but ensuring functional matching to older systems, or recomposing them for a newer system, is where things get tricky. Some buttons in Neos has odd functions that feel exclusive to themself (like the New Folder button also acting as an export/save function)


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 14:54:55
content:
  The rhetorical nuance would be acknowledged if it wasn't so blatantly speculative and counter to my experience.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 14:58:55
content:
  2) To succeed, it will have to be as simple as possible. Each step involved is a hurdle that creators and buyers will have to deal with. My previous employer was ETH based, and the complaints on getting in, with JUST ETH, was something I had to listen to every day. This was back in 2017-2018, when it was still in the being praised phase.
  Right now, I can spin up a Gumroad page, link my PayPal, and I'm done. People can pay with PayPal or direct credit and have their item in seconds. PayPal creation time is minimal and many people have an account.
  THAT is your competing purchase loop.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:05:54
content:
  because how a user gets their item matters, and that starts with getting the payment started. For other services, there are no additional steps. Neos and SL both have in-game currencies. In SL, you buy L$ on the LindeX Exchange, which can be done with PayPal. You can then spend the L$ right away. Selling L$ on the exchange gives you USD credits, which can be processed via Tilia. Tilia then offers a 1099-K for tax purposes.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:06:26
content:
  Neos requires an ETH wallet be setup and have a balance. This can be from an exchange that offers wallet services, or even PayPal, but in all of them, you have to buy it first. Once purchased, you then put it into a given address when you sign in, which is then processed... eventually. I don't know if it's still manually done or not. Anyway, take the NCR you get and buy something.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:10:33
content:
  Cashing out is the same ordeal but backwards and can be easy to mess up. I know because I have messed it up, and my background is from a blockchain based metaverse engine. Idealy, you request the NCR balance to be sent to a wallet that is already linked with some kind of exchange. If you don't, you run into a weird issue where you need ETH to pay gas fees to move the NCR... or basically money to use money. Take the NCR and sell it on the exchange. For tax reasons, we'll just say that the age and value of the NCR is upon being received. The exchange should hopefully notate this as well. I'm also going to assume you can just exchange NCR for USDC, which can then be converted to USD. Get it to PayPal or your financial output of choice. Now you have money.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:14:46
content:
  Ask any VRChat creator if that is somehow ideal, and they'll question if you have a mental problem. So if you want to bring in VRC content creators, you have to beat a payment cycle that is literally "Link PayPal and sit back" or "Link PayPal and sell internet money on an easy to use exchange with no BS inbetween" (in the case of SL/Tilia).
  Unless the intention is to not deal with VRChat's market at all, WHICH is possible and could work out, but you have to pick which you want. If you want to praise VRChat's success and claim competition, realize what makes it succeed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:25:13
content:
  Right now, Neos doesn't have an automated content delivery system yet, which is why I left it out. That has different hurdles, but none of them are payment related and was out of the scope. To be fair, if NCR is streamlined and made to be easy, that'd actually be fine and no one is really complaining about that. If anything, the complaints are about how right now it's complicated, which is why it isn't viewed to be ideal.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:30:15
content:
  As for the over analyising... that was my job on the previous platform. I took down customer complaints, bug reports, and safety concerns all the time, even off duty. Someone turned their wallet file into dust due to reinstalling the client? I'd be the next Elon Musk if I was given overtime payment on handling those. Someone can't get a world running? Documented and usually helped out. Marketplace problem? Investigated and notated. Take everything and present it to the big boys in the virtual meetings.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:31:55
content:
  Heck, even after being let go, the team often had no choice but to request that I'd help out with an issue, since server operation and technical support was my strong point. This is why I had a rather high balance in their cryptocurrency on the day they shutdown.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:33:15
content:
  I did some dev work, but I wasn't paid for that. I was only paid as a support and engagement associate. Part Walmart Greeter, part GeekSquad. Constant live support that was provided in-world for new and old users alike.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:36:07
content:
  Spent roughly 4-8 hours a day sitting in front of a virtual desk or standing at a starting area to help out new users, who often hadn't even tried VR before, so being versed with every headset was a priority. During low times, I wrote utility scripts that focused on user engagement and experience improvements, often based on the tickets I documented and noted during my sign-off summaries.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:39:02
content:
  I did mostly bug fixing and addressed feature concerns on behalf of community requests. Some issues were solvable via scripting in JS or required hard level coding via C++. Sometimes this also involved cleaning other people's code to comply with the established ESLINT rules of the project.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:40:40
content:
  The project was open source, so there were community developers and contributors (where I technically fell into place, despite my support role) and then there were the core developer and engineering team.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:42:41
content:
  A major benefit to being support was that I had access to speaking with the core team directly, so any code that I submittted I could get prioritized for review, and also help identify other community contributors who's fixes either needed tweaking (90% of the time ESLint related) or was ready for testing and I could run said tests, document the results, and supply them to the team. I also could view bug tickets and link the code as supplied solutions.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 15:50:28
content:
  (Though the irony is I wrote most of the support tools, to the point where even after I was no longer on the support team, because I hosted the files, they were still using them. I didn't really complain, because I optimized the snot out of them, so they used next to no bandwidth and ran well. So I lost maybe a penny in bandwidth per month. Oh well.)


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:14:22
content:
  I'm curious on if a VRchat avatar edited in Unity is functional for NEOS vr.  the model 'should' work but it's not been tested in VRchat since the dumb 'Visitor' role stuff :\


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:15:11
content:
  If the avatar is a commercially purchased avatar from say GumRoad or Booth, and assuming it doesn't rely on complex shader functions, then it should work fine.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:16:19
content:
  Any issues during the import might be, at best, related to naming on the skeleton of the model. This is the larger culprit that people run into issues with.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:17:00
content:
  The other is just issues with animation controllers that the avatar might rely on, such as gesture control for unique animations, if that is a selling point that you want to see also exist when brought into Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:19:27
content:
  Generally speaking, if you brought it into Unity and Unity could easily humanoid it, then it should work fine within Neos. Any animations you created within Unity will have to be remade for Neos, but for base functionality, you won't have to worry about that


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:50:59
content:
  Very true. There will usually be mentors online if you need some help. You can also post in the discord's help channel or here if you run into problems.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:57:38
content:
  probably won't be able to ask tonight.  Yay D&D (Which would be fun to have in VR) so i'll be on tomorrow


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 16:58:46
content:
  I'm actually working on some D&D in vr stuff. Though there is already a pretty good d&d world called DelVR.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 17:28:40
content:
  I'll stick my neck out and say quoting ugandan action movies while dressed as a misshapen knuckles isn't racist imo


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 17:48:27
content:
  https://kotaku.com/racist-jokes-keep-showing-up-in-overwatch-league-broadc-1822376195
  https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/ugandan-knuckles-meme-overwatch/
  https://gizmodo.com/does-razer-know-it-posted-a-racist-meme-1822485212

  Long story short: It is a dog whistle now.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:28:38
content:
  I mean, I work on personal projects outside of my company time. Nothing wrong with that, and can't see anything wrong if someone spun up a seperate patreon just to fund offshoot things that aren't officially part of a main system.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:29:35
content:
  "I don't have any specific project right now that I can talk about and I can't make any promises, but if you'd like to support my personal efforts and help me fight for what I believe, I'll appreciate every cent and pour it into my and my team's efforts where I can."

  Very strange wording for a personal project Patreon, considering recent events


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:39:53
content:
  but yeah... good luck finding another team. You have to have people who can build outside of the Unity system... or just start from scratch.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:40:34
content:
  if you need a baseline, I can recommend an engine, and it's even open source and had crypto support from the beginning. Might need to patch some security concerns but...


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:42:43
content:
  it's okay... seen this before when the previous platform died off. "Oh, we can still save it, just upvote and fight the haters, they don't know anything. Find new team members, we'll even code for free..."


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:43:20
content:
  Do you guys like have little meetings before you all come in here at literally the same time and plan out your gaslighting or do you guys just wing it because you're so good at it?


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:47:21
content:
  bringing up gaslighting... is gaslighting... it's a never winning cycle... it just boils down to whoever doesn't care the soonest


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:48:40
content:
  being realistic is gaslighting, being on planet earth is gas lighting, looking outside... I mean, we can be here all day


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:49:14
content:
  (Actually, that'd be kind of neat to figure a way to take a 360 camera and send its data as a skybox)


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:50:38
content:
  You literally pretending not to know what an echo chamber was or what quarantining a channel meant in the context of a conversation regarding toxic behavior.  Which no one believes for a second.  Only an idiot, or someone living under a  rock wouldn't know what those meant.  Hence the gaslighting.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:53:07
content:
  https://images.app.goo.gl/RvB7vBcQjkQriWrY7

  You literally use every single one of these techniques for gaslighting almost every day on here.  Anytime any one tries to discuss anything.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:57:34
content:
  Okay so i have a genuine question.

  I always see messages saying the devs being replaced would be the best, but what if karel was replaced? i know for a fact there are people that could do his part leagues better, and actually be  professional and good for the project. You really never seen how unprofessionally he's handled things?


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:58:44
content:
  I can see the benefits for both Karl and Froox to hire other people to be CEO and CTO respectively while they remain board members


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 20:59:08
content:
  Frankly the best situation would be the entire company being bought out and everyone getting replaced.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:00:59
content:
  Because c-level positions are replaced all the time.   Karl would still be a board member and so would Froox as long as they have the equity


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:02:03
content:
  And I would be happy if someone more capable replaced Froox as CTO. He is more of a project lead anyway


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:02:22
content:
  sadly, that describes... pretty much all platforms at this point. Remember, everyone else is still in alpha/early access as well... with most things in the "when we get to it" responses for various things. I mean, it took VRC a whole year to actually make due on their promise of new features for their VRC+ program... just in time for people to reconsider renewing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:04:49
content:
  Rec Room is geared towards activities.. not a metaverse... granted, it has come a long way, espceially with user content creation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:05:18
content:
  in that case, Neos is a completed product because it functionally works, as would the defunct High Fidelity VR and all its forks


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:07:22
content:
  I'll have to poke Rec Room again. It was pretty barebones before, but I do remember hearing about how well it's pulling itself off, especially with user content


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:07:29
content:
  I'm not kidding. Just give the entire project to a team that will take advantage of the potential here.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:08:12
content:
  how is VRC not bleeding money? The amount they receive from VRC+ is not enough to cover basic hosting fees, let alone bandwidth requirements for everyone's 100MB waifus


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:09:48
content:
  I think you use language like bleed to try an paint a company spending their development capital on development as a negative when it's literally what start ups do and Neos should be doing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:12:14
content:
  someone want to explain server hosting? Like the thing I specialized in back on HiFI? Servers are not cheap, especially with VRC's scope. VRC has no real income that is effectively paying for its expenses. VRC+ isn't enough, at least when public hopping and observing who has and has not gotten it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:12:38
content:
  yeah, and you know what investors want? Look around this chat.

  They want returns at some point. It aint' a free for all


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:32:15
content:
  fair, but I still fondly remember the staff meeting I was in when they were shutting down, before Microsoft stepped in. It was all about how to best assist people transitioning over to other platforms, since AltSpace was used mostly as a pure social environment. We had to brainstorm many ideas on things they would perhaps want, such as improvements to nearby local search


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:32:37
content:
  How about WE ALL take chill pills stop bitching, stop gaslighting each other and stop all cringey ass back and fourth.  Like I legitimately want to have discussions in here even when there are opposing viewpoints.    But everytime I try to I get pulled in and end up being a dick too and I'm tired of it


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:35:09
content:
  oh boy... that recentering thing I do fondly remember being fickle, before the acquisition and after (I had to attend an event there onbehalf of the VR company, mostly to gather ideas and hear the discussion)


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:37:41
content:
  The CTO starting a personal Patreon for his side projects is interesting.    And no we don't only talk about NCR we talk about plenty of things.  Like what can be done or should be done to improve the current situation or what can be done to improve Neos or keep new users interested


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:39:27
content:
  I've literally never talked about NCR without talking about the Neos platform.  Because increasing integrity and viability in the platform is directly related to the coin value


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:43:51
content:
  actually... weird question: would the buyback be considerred acquiring capital? So... wouldn't that just reset the capital's age, since at one point it was sold out and is now being baught again, assuming tax speak on a general team?


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:44:03
content:
  The Crypto holding are in CR.   Perhaps you should put a pin in calling for people to put pressure on Karel until you are aware of the specifics


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:47:47
content:
  ....could holding and processing just be separately handled? I mean, people set up holding locations outside of their normal living area all the time, and this is the digital age so... pulling a digital asset and requesting an action I'd assume wouldn't care if you were in the UK, CR, or one of Elon Musk's satelites


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:50:43
content:
  alright, well that answers that part. So whereever holding is done, has to also be where processing goes... makes sense and is simple


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:53:30
content:
  As far as I understand it there is a holding company that is in the CR, while the company that owns that holding company is in the UK.   But don't quote me on that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 21:55:48
content:
  It also shows that the CEO and company itself has faith in its own product.  If youview an ICO like an IPO like you all should then it is no different than any company buying back its stock.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 22:00:05
content:
  If I thought the buy backs were a bad sign and and bad for Neos I wouldn't be bothering trying to actively bring users onto the platform and onboarding them for a basic user experience like I have for the past couple months.   WHich is why I am so critical of the UI/UX issues because its definitely an uphill battle


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 22:00:45
edit_date: 2022-05-13 22:07:45
content:
  anyway I won't be able to respond quickly for the rest of the day, any of you feel free to PM otehrwise


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 22:32:43
content:
  Happens all the time. Apple, Sony, even Exxon and BP have all been doing buybacks recently. People who aren't finance savvy see it as wasting money but it's just transferring capital back into your own company because you believe it's going to do well. It's a bullish signal.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 22:36:52
content:
  Im no crypto nerd, but neos isnt doing well, and the buybacks took up a majority of the funding provided by crypto. Thats my issue with buybacks.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 22:38:19
content:
  I think Karel is thinking more long-term. If (and when) there is a resolution or some sort of forward momentum, going from 30 cents to $10 again has a much higher potential growth rate for the capital he's holding vs keeping it in ETH, which might 5x at best in the same time period.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 22:39:09
content:
  not to mention... companines buy back their stocks, yes... but stocks can fluxuate in value and that's understandable. But stocks aren't a currency, and that's what NCR is... it's Neos's currency... so seeing uncertain changes like this only makes people more uneasy. Say it's building confidence in the company internally all you want, but when the general public's viewpoints don't match up, especially those actively on the platform... a lack of communication, especially how buybacks will help out should that be true, isn't doing so well


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 22:39:52
content:
  Hard to tell. Right now feels like short term attempts to keep price up, but who really knows. We had million dollar buybacks when price was dropping originally


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:37:52
content:
  you do realize for the vast majority of its time Neos wasnt peofitable and couldnt, as in it was impossible, pay a salary to anyone? And the devs turnes against him the moment NCR secured the funding for the project.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:44:21
content:
  Maybe? Sure. But they'd have to agree to some pretty terrible terms and honestly I think the community would have hated him anyway if he implimented anything crypto related.

  But the issue is more that Karel has ALREADY spent years of his life working on this project, despite vast attempts to discredit him and pretend he hasn't and thats not fair.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:45:37
content:
  the truth is: the two parties absolutely could set things aside and get along, establish terms for one another and repair their greivences, but the constant smearing and toxic complaining from the community will not allow that


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:50:09
content:
  and what's going on isn't exactly gaslighting, its both sides trying to engage in character assassination


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:51:11
content:
  the most egregious gaslighting, imo, was the attempts and trying to get the community to think a third party NCR was anything except a death sentence for it


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:52:12
content:
  and sadly many tried very hard to push that belief onto others in bad faith, knowing themselves that it was trying to peddle financial suicide.


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:52:51
content:
  Actions like that from the community should atleast be apologized for if things are ever to come together


type: message
date: 2022-05-13 23:59:50
content:
  I don't know about the buybacks either, its the one thing I think should be talked about imo. If we didn't have the noise of constant character assassination going on then maybe we all could have had a genuine conversation about it and asked Karel to explain his logic and give our input..  But no one can stop insulting or being accusatory for a moment to even do that


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:01:58
content:
  When everyone is suddenly shouting you down out of nowhere, hating your guts, mocking your appearance, praying for your misfortune, how the hell are you supposed to have a conversation with that kind of mob, or even work toward repairing your behavior or leverage input to make better business decisions?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:04:50
content:
  Obviously buybacks at certain levels were mistakes, but that needs to be accepted with certain knowledge that the team ans community were jointly attacking NCR within their own community. Also that I dont think people predicted the winds of the market to change just yet, which slashed values by great degrees in short order


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:06:13
content:
  It is simple. All of the neos funding is worthless unless NCR succedes. That's the point of the buybacks. It is a very clever, if not a little dickish play.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:07:25
content:
  I mean, that's my headcannon too. I think that anger syndromes can take over a group's discourse and force people down a path. Its very obviously illustrated within the discord community


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:07:42
content:
  There is no evidence to suggest there was anything wrong with Karel and Frooxius's relationship until the ICO became successful.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:09:15
content:
  and the grievences that were cited werent between them, but between Karel and others like Geenz and Nex. Or so thats what we know so far. And many of those grievences are probably very legit, but not something impossible to work through.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:12:22
content:
  well he's treated me rudely too, so I can definitely imagine a situation where he's escalated tensions


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:14:25
content:
  thats what my imagination tells me, but its easy to let your imagination go alittle wild when the situation is so unfair imo


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:16:06
content:
  Like every other minor issie has been blown up, I can see things having snowballed and now egos are at play and fueling a push to out someone without concerns to who it hurts.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:16:48
edit_date: 2022-05-14 00:17:46
content:
  Maybe at best we can look at this ugly, painful period as a neccessary moment internally leading to understanding and concrete terms for everyone


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:17:33
edit_date: 2022-05-14 00:17:56
content:
  Organizational transparency can't be an afterthought. IMO Karel failed to communicate his strategy for positioning the project clearly and lost the faith of the stakeholders resulting in divestment. The team then publicly distanced themselves from Karel for their stated reasons, which resulted in further divestment. Then the market crashed. The intervening narratives that arose are just ripples and personal justifications.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:24:01
content:
  it's really convenient to point out the inexperienced business decisions made, but ignore that all of that capital was created to begin with, and ignore his role in creating it


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:25:26
content:
  There was a time when a spotlight on Karel was fair but I think we moved past it months ago and we're just accepting a destructive cycle


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 00:52:01
edit_date: 2022-05-14 01:54:36
content:
  There are many kinds of capital. Some capital is used up in the process of production. Some capital is durable and will last throughout the process. The implication you seem to be positing here is that we should look at the eth and other assets and see a metric of success. But mere accumulation is not the goal. It can in fact be counterproductive.

  If you manage to raise 20 million USD in capital for your pizza business and decide to reinvest it in cheese, dough and sauce, but only have one oven... Are we really ignoring your hustle when we question the distribution of funds? 

  By all means compensate Karel for the time and effort they've put into the project. But if none of the other members of the project will work with him and he's bringing 'inexperienced business decisions' to the table. Like... I'm proud of him for buying all that cheese?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 01:09:27
content:
  Maybe there would be a point if the team was admittedly fighting the concept of new hires, and that the moment they got all that new cheddar, the drama didn't start and an anti-dairy fad was allowed to use the community as a venting ground to attack the new customers


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 01:10:28
content:
  the characterizations haven't helped to get people to understand a nuanced situation... they've only made things worse


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 01:12:59
content:
  The core issue is really seems like it's "should Karel be booted from the company" and we can ask that question in good faith and attempts to rush in and push an angle are all that's happened


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 01:14:09
content:
  Maybe tell me what you think, all things considered, had Karel crossed a grave line and his contributions to the project be outweighed by whatever it is he did, and should he be exiled from the project he spent years on? that's a legit question


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 01:16:01
edit_date: 2022-05-14 01:17:21
content:
  And how does that measure up to the fates of the holders caught in the crossfire? (or honestly, why did they EVER need to be pushed into the crossfire I have no idea other than pure malice against those supporting Karel or an oppertunistic attempt to go with the current fad and go anti-crypto in hopes certain people will like it).


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 01:28:50
content:
  I don't like the developments as they stand, it is causing chaos, but what the heck are you expecting here? 16 people who also contributed to the project don't like the direction, feel like they are unappreciated, and don't feel like they are being given a voice. Karel is a part of Neos, Karel's vision shaped it's journey. So did froox, raith, geenz, outsider, coffee, veer, probableprime, shifty, canadian git, chroma, nex, ryuvi, theo, lacy, dante and rue. So like, honestly... that's my metric. I'm not going to deny the history of the project. I'm not going to pretend it's a situation that can't be complicated by the corporate veil and the messy nature of ICOs.

  But the project is in consensus as to it's direction by any reasonable metric. I respect that. I will also respect the right of those who felt swindled by the events to argue that and seek compensation. What I won't argue or understand is the notion that any single contributor to the project has a claim strong enough to somehow delegitimate an N-1 consensus.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 01:42:16
content:
  Youre perhaps one of the few voices that actually presents it like this in a fair way, but even you seem to not want to acknowledge the depth of character assassination that's been utilized against Karel in the background, and the many incentives people have to out him that have nothing to do with the quality of his work and more to do with personal feelings. And as much of an inconvenience it is that he has that strong of a claim, the opposite is just as unfair when all of those people you mention are Froox's friends. And the notion that all of Froox's handpicked friends agrees with him means I shouldn't question the details of the falling out?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:06:21
content:
  The only relevant people listed are Karel and Froox.  You may not like to hear it but the company doesn't belong to anyone else you listed.

  It was their choice to volunteer their contributions.  Sorry but the real world doesn't work that way.   If everyone was properly contracted this wouldn't be an issue.  And it was Froox's job to do that.   If there was no funding to do that beforehand, then It was still on Froox to ensure that everyone knew they were volunteering their contributions.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:09:17
content:
  I don't honestly know Karel well enough to comment on his character, and I don't like the fact that this is going to haunt everyone involved because of the permanency of the internet. These people are people, and they should be able to have a falling out without the world watching but here we are in the awkward period of social development where technology has outpaced our norms. Just like we saw in this, ten years down the road you bet someone is going to dig this up entirely discounting the growth that could have happened in the meantime.

  But I view it as immaterial to the question of project governance. I don't see the extraordinarily strong claim. Not through the inconvenience of it's existence, but because it has yet to be argued as anything other than an assertion. I understand how the 'office politics' can shake out to the contributing members siding with froox, by all means we can question the process especially as it relates to establishing bylaws but we would have to be starting from the assumption that the team's interest in the project is not legitimate. This is extremely uncharitable. 

  I am not discounting Karel's legitimate interest in the project when I run my moral calculus. I don't think there is a compelling reason to be uncharitable to either party.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:27:26
content:
  You are arguing the technicalities of law. Insofar as that goes, management is in deadlock and the organization is effectively dead. Cool. That's how things work in the real world, alright, sure, where does that get us? Equitable settlement in corporate dissolution?

  Certainty not a continuing project. I can defer to this vision of future events, assuming that the game of chicken plays out and neither flinch. In which case... why stick around? I am invested in the project and it's future. I am interested in the question of how it moves forward and in acknowledging the legitimacy of my own interest in the future of Neos, I ask what is a fair way to move forward.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:53:41
content:
  It seems like the attitude is that compromise is weakness, so we should double down on character attacks, double down on seething over the situation, and build up, brick by brick, this story that actions are irredeemable.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:55:38
content:
  and this is a conversation I'm only really seeing here. If I peek over to Discordland, its an obsessive echochamber and I've seen like maybe 3 at most outsiders try to say there is another way of looking at this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:56:30
content:
  so we're only allowed to say that here, and I dont think things are healthy over there where its all about a bad man


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:58:30
content:
  Like, the voices here that I find myself arguing with, I see them just go over to the discord and say we here are the crazy ones


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 02:59:35
content:
  never once have I seen it questioned that maybe this fued can be diffused, or maybe there are differences that can be looked past or transformed into fairness


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 03:01:58
edit_date: 2022-05-14 03:35:28
content:
  it is the same as with the woke left - once they've characterized their opponents as irredeemable, there really can't be a compromise. the issues has come down to one of morals and principles - and to be principled is unwavering.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 03:52:10
edit_date: 2022-05-14 05:04:54
content:
  I can understand this feeling, given how people discuss the situation. I just don't feel like it's my place to assert my own interests in the team's evaluation of their work conditions. Like, the results of those negotiations IMO can be taken as a corporate action, and if the company acts in a way that gives us grievance, then I think it's legitimate for us to seek damages. 

  But it feels wrong for us to second guess their own tolerances or experience when it comes to the line they've publicly drawn. I think we have legitimate interest in terms of our relationship with the company. I don't think we have legitimate interest in questioning their evaluation of their own workplace experience. I do recognize that's a personal line, but I do think it's consistent with my goal of treating people as ends not means.

  That being said, I do think it is legitimate to criticize their public actions. I just balk at the moral complexity of navigating that criticism in the context of abuse allegations, gaslighting allegations, blackmail allegations and the other emotionally driven narratives currently being thrown around. I am not a detective. I am also aware of my bias of familiarity on this point. I'd /prefer/ to not speak on this point but I will likely end up speaking up in defense of my friends because I mean... It sucks to see people yelling at people I like?

  Realistically no one is going to convince me my friends are bad enough people that they don't have to be conscientious of their criticism, however much I hedge against my bias. Best I can do is acknowledge that respectful or even pointed criticism is legitimate and resign myself to engaging such in good faith if I can't just let it lie.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 03:55:15
edit_date: 2022-05-14 08:21:57
content:
  If there's anything I've learned from my time interacting with the furry community in Second Life over the past 15 years, it's that furries - and particularly furry coders have an incredibly inflated and unwarranted sense of self-importance to the point of it being a god complex. They see people like Karel as a hurdle between them and their conquest for power on the internet and will stop at nothing to discredit and remove him. 

  It's no coincidence that all of this started happening almost directly after Karel embraced his role as CEO and presented the 2022 roadmap. They've never respected him or seen him as anything more than a bean counter, and that mindset is the same thing driving them to make insane claims like "Froox really owns Neos." The current furry contingent walking off of the project would be the best thing to ever happen to Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:02:56
edit_date: 2022-05-14 08:37:27
content:
  will you please stop being a broken record and shut up about the furry fandom that you somehow are a mystical expert at. No one cares but the less noise we have, the better everyone's hearing will be


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:08:15
edit_date: 2022-05-16 05:09:14
content:
  Flame Soulis is neck deep in the furry coder cabal with the rest of them and isn't here here for rational conversation - he's here to convince you that Karel is bad and Froox is good along with most of the people with cartoon animal avatars in the member list.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:08:15
content:
  hell, I don't have personal issues with Karel. When I had trouble with a transaction, he was rather active in helping with it. Heck, we even got to talk about my previous employer because he visited their HQ during its operation. It was refreshing because I was a remote worker, so I never got to visit it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:09:20
edit_date: 2022-05-14 08:37:51
content:
  if anything, you literally just proved most of our points that you are actively just hating on people for one aspect.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:11:32
edit_date: 2022-05-16 05:09:03
content:
  You can sugar coat however you'd like, the underlying motivation and agenda of the Discord echo chamber is removing Karel.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:13:59
content:
  ahuh... okay so then... why would I need to sugarcoat facts? Karel visited my previous employer's HQ, hung out with the CEO and dev team, and it even influenced some final statements during the project's shutdown. I had and still have no ill will against my previous engagement with the company, so I have nothing to gain to bring up that mentioning, other than to solidify that I don't have any vendetta against a singular person.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:14:15
content:
  much like...crypto being one aspect that the discord community hated on ruthlessly? lol just completely blind to the hypocrisy


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:16:09
content:
  that's not entirely true. Indeed, the public reception of it is not high. Many companies, including most (but not all) compeitors have made public pledges to not be involved with crypto currencies, leading to outcries against those who are still in support. Given the constant comparisons, when VRC did announce their pledge, this lead to a small raid in the discord about Neos being a terrible system due to its involvement. So people being upset over something that is resulting in negative press isn't a logical leap.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:22:04
edit_date: 2022-05-16 05:11:17
content:
  This corporate anti-crypto virtue signaling trend is a product of the far left social justice movement which is shilling the lie that crypto is killing the planet and that decentralized finance is evil. In the future when most of the world's financial networks are blockchain-driven, we'll look back and cringe at things like "anti-crypto pledges."


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:23:01
content:
  so then stop saying VRChat is a competitor. If they are indeed so far away on the spectrum and that their decisions are political... then why compete in their market? It's clearly their own.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:23:03
content:
  Tizzy, you post the same thing at least weekly. I dont think its a surprise you get on peoples nerves when you do that, especially when what you say is either a generalization or just untrue. Its tiresome and everytime it feels like you are here to stir people up. All this "anti crypto" when there are furry holders here just trying to discuss how things will end up.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:24:44
content:
  Tizzy, how can you say this expecting it to be read as anything other than hyperbole? This isn't even a question of the 'furry coders'. Losing the whole of the project's technical talent, product knowledgebase, community relations team, quality assurance team, moderation staff and a significant portion of its active playerbase is mildly put a crippling prospect even if we hope and pray for a better faster stronger rebuild. 

  You're in full combat mode, and every time I see you you seem deeper and deeper into a McCarthyistic fervor. Like, banging on the war drum and seeing red. How is that going to help navigate the fallout? Like, you are using all the language of the modern culture war bullshit unironically.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:26:26
content:
  just as some of you wanted to have a simple conversation on the subject with evidence to back the claims, the same was there. In most cases here, there have been no evidence of proper support or where the systems worked. It'd be great if we did have a better alternative, and if crypto is that, then why is it subjective to such heavy market changes and has been on a decline in popularity recently? When we did ask about why that is, we were told that we didn't know anything and began praising a digital coin like a religious entity.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:27:02
content:
  the crypto community literally had to leave and form its own telegram because of how toxic it was in the discord, and y'all chase us in here regardless, and now try to accuse of mccarthyistic fervor...just fucking lol


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:29:06
content:
  you haven't answered the question and only are making it more to the point on why there were issues. Some crypto people did have valid explanations and were given more respect as a result. Then there were people who couldn't help buy say that the 'natives of the platform' wouldn't ever understand, as if we weren't allowed to know. Considering we were on the system first, actively work with it, and have the decisions of now effecting the future of what we work on... we have every meaningful point to ask questions and raise concerns


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:30:46
content:
  if anything, I raise a poitn I brought up then and still hold now: if everyone on the patreon and/or invested via NCR purchases, had actually signed in and given a single hour to the platform, it would have most likely tipped the scales against VRChat and everyone else in the form of concurrent users.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:30:55
content:
  sure, there were reasonable conversations in the discord, i was part of many of them. what's your point? the overall toxicity was undeniable.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:33:34
content:
  Going to be honest: I do not like drama, but I will say this.

  The discord did get pretty freaking toxic, which I kind of don't like that it happened but, well, the internet everyone.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:37:30
content:
  Many people who were on the platform and actively using it found many of the newer people from the influx of crypto based investors to be equally... not so much 'toxic' as it was preachy and attempting to push ideas and agendas that felt against what the project was originally steering for. This made the decline of users go up with people leaving, along with the other issues coming in again from other changes with competitors and their stances on crypto, creating more divides. People were upset in both directions at each other, since each others's offering felt in conflict with the other.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:44:50
edit_date: 2022-05-14 04:49:28
content:
  I'll just say this: look at how the discord community characterized Karel. And Reactant once he left. And Tizzy... and yes, also the "crypto bro" community in general as well. It is to not just criticize, but to demonize and in complete bad faith. 

  There's a pattern to it. Many of us in here see it for what it is and are sick of it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:50:13
content:
  Reactant was a different case from most others. Part of it was shock, because some people actually got into Neos because of them. Their videos showing the full 11 point body tracking, eye tracking, and face tracking during a time when next to no one had such was very impressive and a major talking point. I can't comment further about them personally, because I only ever met them once, but was just jaw dropped on how well it all worked. Hearing about what occured felt like a betrayal in a way, even though I didn't have any direct investments other than why I have 13 trackers all charging at the moment.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:52:11
edit_date: 2022-05-14 04:52:21
content:
  To be honest both sides make satires and such too, again just the reality of the internet. You can't stop it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 04:54:34
edit_date: 2022-05-14 04:56:31
content:
  Not talking about satire my dude. Discord was stating AS FACT that Karel was enslaving Froox, locking him inside, that he should be jailed for "faking" a signature, etc. I won't bother digging up the ugly stuff that has been said about Reactant and Tizzy. And of course the toxic bullshit that drove all of us crypto folk in here.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 05:30:50
content:
  I don't want to criticize '<group>' actions. It's reductive and unproductive. My criticisms, if I need to give them, should be specific. Been through this before, and us vs them crap just results in people justifying bad behavior with whataboutism.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:34:36
content:
  they're like... kids. Young teens or something. Atleast I hope. but it was silly and probably the best laugh I had since watching this drama


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:36:45
content:
  Did VRC really "pledge" anything? All I saw was that they stated they have no plans. They didn't do some silly itch.io plea for attention


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:37:46
content:
  But I know the anti-crypto movement is like, basically an affinity group and will not just believe anything anti you tell them immediately with no verification, but will spin things a certain way


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:40:48
content:
  and I dont think it's so much that its been on a decline recently as so far as it experienced a massive push into public discourse that no one really asked for. Like for some natives of this market, we're used to and accepting of the various tides and volatility, as we've lived through atleast a few extensive multi-year drawdowns, but..


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:41:17
content:
  that was one of the many points of VRC+'s subscription. The idea was that 'the people would fund updates and new features' with some being VRC+ exclusive. This was also combined with already offered additions such as increased favorite slots and thumbnail support.

  However, during the time after the initial offering was done, which was a discount... nothing occured after it. That is, until people's early subscriptions were just about to expire, when suddenly a new feature set came out...


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:42:12
content:
  Recently it became a hot contentious topic and so we've had to find ourselves being defensive and also getting exhausted with arguments that some thing are novel gotchas, but that had been hashed out like back in 2012 on the bitcoin talk forums... so annoying all around for everyone involved


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:46:37
content:
  I didn't understand. Did at one point they talk about doing a blockchain thing and then backtracked on it?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:48:19
content:
  not at all. In fact, there was actually public concern about it, since some of the discussions were about market integration, mostly to capitalize on Patreon model systems. That's when another wave of concern occured, and hence the public response that eventually was made.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:50:48
content:
  no. It was treated as a subscription/donation system. They kept having to emphasize it being optional and not mandatory... despite the fact that using it basically could allow you to upload on day 1 since it augments your trust values a bit


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:51:56
content:
  reminds me of when Gabe Newell had a pretty measured response on nft and blockchain games and why they werent on Steam, and I agreed with it, but headlines were like "newell condemns NFTs as scams"


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:53:50
content:
  What problems have been solved in the internal consultation? I think you should come out and talk about it. Is it necessary for us to stay here? Karel


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 08:53:52
content:
  more or less akin to how my old CEO handled similar topics: basically advertised and supported NFT systems before their popularity along with his blockchain system (which... honestly was done in a smart way), despite now having a 180 approach... and the video of him explaining all the above still on the youtube channel publically


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:20:56
edit_date: 2022-05-14 16:26:31
content:
  Guys I have a really serious Idea...


  So with all that is going on between Karel and the other Devs... We need to be able to make our voices heard in a way that both Karel and the Devs will listen to.

  We should form something like a CoOrdinating Committee, as a mixture of Patrons, NCR holders, NCR non-holders with an interest in the ways the technology could be applied, and sympathisers who understand how this has affected us and our wellbeing, and directly impacted our lives...

  With some more cohesion, and our own governance token, we could more effectively represent ourselves and our interests without throwing fuel on the unempathetic sentiment towards NCR holders within the louder parts of the community.

  This would NOT be to attempt to interfere in business which is strictly between Karel and the other Devs, that is Company Affairs, but it would give us a voice with a strong Community backing to appeal directly to both Parties and present to them our Ideas on what should be the Future of NCR and how it is handled. 

  I am able to create the Governance token myself, but, initially it is not going to be a tradeable asset, just a basic framework to begin with where the coin can be created and distributed.

  Also to begin with, everyone is going to simply get a flat 100 tokens for simply being willing to participate. Only charge would be the transaction fee on the Solana chain. 

  We can decide on how we want to manage the finer points like distribution of the token once that is handled.

  The Representative will be tasked with contacting the Devs, and as a Community, we can together sign an initial Petition to signal to both Karel and the Devs that we would like our Voices to be heard in unison through this method.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:28:56
content:
  Cost you less than a penny for the chance to participate in a Community lead Governance system that coordinates our most agreed on Opinions and presents them to the Neos Leadership.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:34:15
content:
  I'd cover the transaction fee myself but I have no idea just how many people are going to want tokens. How about I cover the first 1,000 people? Waive the fee.

  DISCLAIMER: I'm telling you right now up-front, again, that to begin with you are not going to be able to sell the tokens. Not a monetised asset.

  However that's not to say, and also not to guaruntee, that you won't be able to trade them in the future, since we could just decide to monetise the token, and since it would be ours and not an asset of the Neos team, we can just do that if that's what we want but it has to derive its value from somewhere for that to happen so we would have to come up with a plan, like a minting strategy, and finding ways to build a loose association with NCR, which could be anything, could be designed to make NCR holders whole by giving them a say relative to their NCR


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:35:58
content:
  If you have been in this community for long you would know just how vocal I am about all the ways we could solve the problems that have been presented to us and salvage the value of NCR


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:37:45
content:
  All I am saying is we need to coordinate ourselves and form a decentralised structure with a mouthpiece through which to speak to the team.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:41:01
content:
  Also, if you know anything about the way Corporations work, and Tokenomics, Psychology, and the Economy in general you'd know for a fact that my suggestions are sound and would help Karel and the rest of the Team. 

  What exactly is the issue with trying to unify our voices as Patrons and NCR holders?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:42:34
content:
  Inflammatory and dismissive comments with no productive value to achieve the desired goal and salvage something from this catastrophic situation we are in.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:43:44
content:
  I draw Aliens. Who cares. I am interested in the future of Neos and NCR and I have my neck out in NCR to motivate me to make that happen.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 12:59:34
content:
  we could always just make a telegram group of our own and pin polls in there, though a governance token has the added benefit of validation and consensus, plus it would actively discourage the anti-crypto part of the community from participating in our own group voting and proposition structure which would be there to represent the interests of us, the ones who have been hurt financially and our sympathisers, not represent the toxic anti-crypto sentiment drowning out our voices enough already.

  But anything that keeps track of common consensus in the non-anticrypto and neutral parts of the community works.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:09:17
edit_date: 2022-05-15 16:19:40
content:
  Let me note that wanting anti-crypto people out of it, is because this is primarily meant to represent our own voice and let ourselves be heard when it comes to matters of NCR. 

  Right now the anti-crypto voice is the loudest, and the only one the devs can hear. So we need to work together to coordinate ourselves and represent the views from within our own community.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:10:47
edit_date: 2022-05-15 16:19:43
content:
  And the anti-crypto voice is hurting our financial wellbeing. The equivalent of calling up someone's boss and convincing them to stop paying you. It's not nice and it hurts.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:11:20
content:
  nevermind that creating a token to govern some committee to 'submit' ideas for a different token seems pointless and wasteful. The only purpose of it seems to be to systematically remove those who may have a different opinion in the first place by excluding out those who don't wish to participate in crypto in general and those who don't want to participate in your crypto. the subset of subsets remaining who use such a system I would think would share enough in common to not need some governing token. If you really want to separate out something for polling where you have more control over the population you are polling, you can create a separate group for it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:15:31
edit_date: 2022-05-14 13:16:49
content:
  My biggest reason for blockchain specifically is actually because I think blockchain is cool and I know how to code a basic token on Solana and have been looking for an excuse :V

  Maybe the telegram group Idea is best, but I assure you I was not trying to scam anyone. It's just that it would cost me exactly $0.00025 USD of Solana to send the token I could make to a person's wallet.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:19:53
content:
  even without any scam intent. seems like an unnecessary layer that just removes value from itself by using it


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:21:17
content:
  If I were out to scam people, I'd not be asking only that they pay Solana's fee (less than 1 penny) for sending tokens between wallets :V

  It was not intended to have monetary value though. I've been playing with the idea of governance tokens that are removed from being trade assets and used exclusively for governance and are issued based on non-monetary factors like for example how long it has been since you created your Neos account.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:21:27
content:
  If you really want to form some more focused group or committee. make a new group to chat in. that gives you some moderation power, polling, focused discussion..


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:24:04
content:
  it introduces however little or much barrier to entry as you want as a bonus depending on how you invite people into it


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:24:21
content:
  (side note because that sounds bad, the issue tokens based on time things and other similar ideas if applied here would be voted on first. So would be based on what people want. But now I think about it, long time users would get drowned out by newer users)


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:29:25
content:
  But I dont think its would achieve much. It feels like itd be the same ramblings we have here, except with voting to see whos right.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:30:52
content:
  I don't think it would be too much different than the ramblings here either but that shifts moderation and topics to them instead of the group as a whole and the admins


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:31:41
content:
  Ramblings can be very productive. And I think it would achieve much as it, at the very least, gets our voices heard in a structured and collated way instead of the disparate cries and ramblings beings through around into the aether and drowned out by the cries of people who don't care about how it is hurting us.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:34:10
content:
  Also can't pin messages, so the only message that ever gets pinned is Karel's statement, which is important, but non-conductive to discussion meant to unify our voices and decide what we want to pitch to Karel, Froox and the Devs


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:35:41
edit_date: 2022-05-14 13:35:48
content:
  Id just say, good luck keeping interest. I think even if you gained a big audience, in the current community status, itll have polarizing votes and then people will just drop it altogether.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:37:39
content:
  That's why I wanted to try to keep the group strictly about representing our section of the community which is under-represented right now, so, trying to keep the toxic atmosphere of the current community status against eachother out.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:42:19
content:
  Okay I must be a bit confused because you were including users of all kinds, but it sounds like you are leaning more towards a crypto holders representation, is that right?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:44:37
content:
  Yes, leaning more towards, but really just anyone who is not, explicitly, anti-crypto.

  Integrating with and relating to the non-toxic wider community is still very important,


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 13:58:17
edit_date: 2022-05-14 13:59:46
content:
  Not sure what you are envisioning as the representation mechanism. It's probably more expedient to create a feedback campaign or patreon priority issue voting bloc. The current feedback form is: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeL4HmESO0AnKm30G2GWb8n8aTZ87rRXNoHAzWTuZZCSRSxlw/viewform


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:02:31
content:
  NFT are really just a receipt. Or rather a hyperlink. They don't actually solve any of the copyright or ownership issues that arise from digital content, since actual copyright law already addressed them.  Even as DRM NFTs are not very useful.  As far as showing ownership of a digital asset on a single platform.  A decentralized leader gives no advantage over a traditional database.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:07:02
content:
  yeah... if you need an example of why NFT objects in a metaverse don't really work all that well if relied on as the only protection, I'd say look at High Fidelity, who used a Proof of Providence system (basically NFTs), and it was badly protected, and the excuse given was that protecting everything is impossible, so they didn't bother.

  It's a weird thing: to make it work, you'd have to 100% enforce it, and then use techniques to keep the linked data anonymous, but for developers, having this be the case means that they can't make dynamic systems very easily, if at all. Things like model URL changing would not be possible, and it'd create issues where modifying the content could change how the NFT itself is considerred protected.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:08:26
content:
  NFT protections really rely on the contract. And the protections themselves are handled through copyright law


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:09:13
content:
  Fun fact those monkey yacht club images are not copyrighted because they are generated by a computer.  It's really funny


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:10:30
content:
  $400 a month is a trivial amount for corporation that just raised millions.  It's called the cost of doing business and can be written off as a business expense.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:12:41
content:
  that's.... not going to work. Content on most marketted user content systems have an inbetween system that handle things that would normally involve a court room before it gets to that point. You'd have to have the system itself be the govener in a sense, because the moment anyone can just read its data and copy it, they can equally reupload it as a new NFT, or not at all if the system allows for it.

  Not to mention, you run into weird problems that the NFT people haven't throught about. If a market was based on it, can an NFT have a copy limit? If I buy a 3D voxel NFT (I've seen a few) of a tree, can I plant this tree multiple times, or do I have to own multiple NFTs per tree? What if I go to another place and then spawn out said NFT? What should occur to the older one that was previously in another world?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:13:22
content:
  I say this because I already went through this and had to discuss these concerns back when this was a thing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:13:57
content:
  Also, just saying it again: we already have the GitHub, and it's free: https://github.com/Neos-Metaverse/NeosPublic/issues


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:18:02
content:
  Let me run by a very simple example: I create a tree. It's a neat tree. I publish this tree on the market. You buy the tree, you can use the tree. I'll just say it's an NFT for the sake of convience. Someone finds out how to get the tree's model extracted and copies it. It becomes a new NFT, since the system only allows for them. THey could decide to sell it, or not, but regardless, it's not an authentic original Soulis Tree.

  By that definition, I should have a lawyer on standby and money to shove their way when somone does this, because copyright. Unless DMCA can apply, in which it takes a YouTube approach, but that also has a similar abuse system that... is already on YouTube. You could let whoever governs the NFT system to then handle it... but as far as I'm aware, isn't that kind of defeating the point behind them then?


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:20:51
content:
  Don't get me wrong: no system is perfect. But if you want to draw in creators, you need something that actually offers protection on some systematic level... but you also have to keep in mind on people developing complex systems.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:21:17
content:
  Let me bring up a even simpler example: I already said they are useless and serve no function.   Also the digital millennium copyright act is driven by copyright law.   What are you even talking about


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:25:03
content:
  with DMCA, I can only base its effects... despite not having a full grasp of what it can fully do. I don't know how hosting services have to acknowledge and operate by to keep in compliance, but from the markets I have dealt with, usually this means items being delisted. However, I don't know if DMCA also applies to non-sold items or not. Like, if someone again duplicates something but doesn't sell it... I don't know if that is under the same umbrella. I just know there are reporting tools and the like, but that's it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:30:47
content:
  The entire purpose of the DMCA is to exactly govern what a hosting service is legally compelled to do.  And what they are legally held liable for.   YouTube for example could not exist without the DMCA because under traditional copyright law, they would be held legally liable alongside the uploading for hosting copyrighted content.   If you don't have full grasp of something you shouldn't be posting an opinion on it so matter-of-fact-ly.   Also oddly enough the DMCA also specifically covers boat hull designs.  Fun fact.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:32:31
content:
  It was new copyright legislation that needed to be codified and internationally recognized through the WIPO treaty so it was just tacked onto the DMCA


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:34:27
edit_date: 2022-05-16 09:27:20
content:
  I can't remember off the top of my head where and when but there is a public health law dealing with sewage management and waste disposal that also bans elephants from being marched through a downtown/mainstreet area


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:35:37
content:
  there are a large number of weird laws in similar situations, be it on a local county/district level or state level.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 15:51:35
content:
  The fact is NFT are a solution to a non-existent problem.   And are more a reciept of sale than anything else.  Legal Eagle does an excellent layman explanation on them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 16:06:44
content:
  Interesting idea. I would highly suggest though that you find a level headed volunteer sympathetic to the other side to have as a moderator in order to keep the discourse civil. Someone who is in with the larger neos community but is not anti crypto.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 17:20:08
content:
  ...We. Already. Have. The. GitHub. Any concerns, bugs, feature requests, tweaks, and request of additional documentation are there. It costs nothing, is already used by virtually everyone, and is a function for Patrons to vote for their highest concerned issue.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 17:25:42
content:
  Hell, and I can't even believe I'm saying this, but if you really want to level things out, you could even request a feature where, if you don't want to be on Patreon and still want to invest, that you can spend an NCR token to vote if you are not a Patron.

  You already can spend NCR on storage space, so having voting functions and using the token as a means of almost literally putting your money where your mouth is isn't a stretch, but at least then you are not introducing more complicated systems and we already know NCR transactions with system functions work fine.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 18:15:02
content:
  The Patreon should be dropped.  And services migrated to a more efficient vendor that doesn't take 12% of off the top.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 18:33:49
content:
  Not sure if there is another vendor that would work. Only other one I know of is boosty and librepay, the latter working... If you want to throw teirs out the window and the former I know not enough to really make a statement other than that it was easy to use as a non-creator


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 18:34:54
content:
  I mean, don't get me wrong, an alternative would mean that even the crypto crowd could then have equal opportunities to that of users that are on Patreon as a possibility, and improving availability is always a good thing


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 18:43:00
content:
  There are users that are neither crypto or Patreon people there is and will be a contingent of people who don't pay anything.   Users are still users.     And there are plenty of vendors for small businesses and none of them take anywhere near 12% of a transaction.   Patreon is and always has been a scam.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 19:07:05
content:
  have you looked in a mirror lately?

  Admitively, GitHub isn't exactly a glamor site, but neither are most developer environments (Seriously, the less we talk about FogBugz, Jira, phpMyAdmin, and most internal company built solutions, the better). However, it just works, and the team even setup a helpful wizard system when creating an issue.

  It isn't Canny, but it also doesn't cost anything to use and is more widely adopted... everywhere. Heck, non-technical friends of mine were able to figure it out without me having to really explain anything.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 19:08:09
content:
  Not to mention, if Neos does go the open source route... guess where it most likely will be and where most bug tickets will be reported...


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 19:09:16
content:
  and yes, I know about BitBucket and GitLab, if that is being brought up. All of them aren't too bad.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 21:46:02
content:
  Fair... though in most cases, Jira is usually used for bug tracking purposes on technical projects.

  I understand the importance about improving general usability, and it seems that the only reason Canny isn't really recommended is due to its price point. With a quick Google search, there seems to be an open source alternative... which I mean, I'd hope so, since Canny isn't exactly rocket science.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 21:46:51
content:
  and if it can be tied with Neos's sign in system... then yeah: could totally make it work. Might be awhile to get it bridging, and GitHub users can reference the alt system and vice versa.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 21:48:00
content:
  Only issue would be that the priority voting system would need an overhaul, since it's geared towards GitHub, but I guess you could also just have technical people find issues on the 'canny' system to group and organize more a more refined way there for voting until then.


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 21:49:01
content:
  heck, would be kind of neat to have the bot also respond back with updates to voted things, so if something changes while you are in-world, you can still get notified about it


type: message
date: 2022-05-14 21:50:59
content:
  So yeah... LogChimp or if someone can find something else without increasing expenses (other than bandwidth, because that's unavoidable) could work out if there is interest and people are willing to tweak it for Neos's accounts, unless that is already a thing in it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-15 22:37:01
content:
  I think getting listed on new exchanges is good but I don't think we will see any rise in value until development starts up again


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 06:58:54
edit_date: 2022-05-16 10:06:18
content:
  If Frooxius genuinely wanted to discourage the idea that his new patreon was separate from the Neos project he would make a conscious effort to address that - but instead thanks people for transferring their pledge from the "other patreon." Unless he and the entire volunteer team plan on staging a mass walk-off and starting a new project from scratch I don't see that panning out. The intellectual property rights of the Neos codebase still arguably belongs to Solirax LTD and not Frooxius as an individual, and accepting money for anything related to Neos as an individual could put him into a precarious legal situation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 07:21:05
content:
  technically speaking i don't think froox is doing anything unlawful, but this certainly throws cold water on the idea of any kind of settlement or resolution being forthcoming


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 07:21:16
content:
  Meh, most of the people advertising it have said it doesn't have to do with helping neos. It's more about helping Froox...


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 09:45:45
edit_date: 2022-05-16 10:09:56
content:
  Good day!

  Neos Credits has been approved for the listing on CoinMooner https://coinmooner.com/coin/20478🚀

  Feel free to share it with your community to get more votes and attention! 🔥

  Have a wonderful day everyone! :) 🙌


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 10:09:32
content:
  Hey great news all Neos Credits mods and members! CoinMooner just listed Neos Credits! 🥳 
   
  If you need upvotes, you can visit us online or TG channel. Good luck! ❤️


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 10:37:41
content:
  As it's been pointed out, it sounds like there won't be compromises or a settling of differences now


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 10:44:44
content:
  " I have also transferred my payment from >THE OTHER PATREON, in hopes that it helps the team more."

  Frooxius: Thank you! I appreciate the support!


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 10:51:22
content:
  its clear what the users comment refers to and its clear he is puiling people away form the Neos Patreon


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 10:53:31
content:
  You guys don't understand that in litigtation you just need to present a strong case, you don't need to catch the person red handed, and this pretty fucking strong.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 10:58:39
content:
  I'm not surprised a lot of the discord mods come in here and try to do damage control, its super weird


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:03:11
content:
  And the comments are all about moving their funding form the other patreon (i.ie the neos patreon) and support for the team


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:03:27
content:
  regardless, froox has not told anyone to stop one patreon to support his? Like if you supported the neos patreon expecting to be supporting froox and found out it wasn't, seems reasonable to locate a person's personal patreon


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:04:30
content:
  It's the fact that he isn't actively telling people that this patreon isn't in support for Neos and is thanking the ones that do so.  Doesn't matter if its generic


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:04:40
content:
  if his patreon existed from the start, would it be different if people moved which one they support?


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:05:05
content:
  You're getting upset because Froox set up a personal patron? Uh... huh. Well, cool i guess, sorry it affects you so much.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:07:55
content:
  everytime someone says something negative or in speculation theis fucking brigade of discourd mods rolls up in here and the gaslighting begins


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:09:56
content:
  I don't explicitly state every single project I have ever worked or am currently working on. on my patreon?


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:10:40
content:
  If I worked for facebook. and they put me on leave or didn't have work. is my patreon now taking something away from them because users are supporting me directly?


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:11:09
content:
  If I was in situation where I was involved in a company with millions of dolalrs on the line that would eventually lead to litigation if arbitration failed I would be smart enough to tell people on my patreon that it doesn't fund the that project.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:12:47
content:
  part of the point I'm attempting to make is someone saying "I don't like what X company is doing to you or not doing for you, I'd rather support you directly than them"


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:13:31
content:
  I don't have any specific project right now that I can talk about and I can't make any promises, but if you'd like to support my personal efforts and»»»>help me fight for what I believe,««« I'll appreciate every cent and pour it into my and my team's efforts where I can.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:15:45
content:
  It doesn't matter what your personal interpretation is.  The fact of the matter is that it CAN BE ARGUED during litigation.   You are acting like I fired shots an made an accusation


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:16:50
content:
  You're not clearing anything up your just missing the point (or ignoring purposefully) to gas light like you guys always do any time people try to have discussion.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:19:17
content:
  Anything can be argued, but I believe it'd be a hard sell to say that they are attempting to take something away from a different patreon. They aren't saying that anywhere? They stated it is a personal patreon. Not really something you could hold against froox for users on their own volition choosing to not support one patreon and support a different one, regardless of reason


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:24:52
content:
  "You are acting like I fired shots an made an accusation"..  Seems like you were the one doing this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 11:27:38
content:
  >.> <.< https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslight
  to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stability


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 12:00:37
content:
  well the one time I do think there was actual gaslighting was when people here were actively trying to convince people that the third party ncr wouldn't be that bad. That was some actual gaslighting but that seems to have stopped because it's finally seen as futile to try to push it now.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 12:01:54
content:
  But I'm still sore over that period, and the banded effort of some to try to push that onto people while knowing it was financial suicide


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 12:12:42
content:
  A difference of opinion is not gaslighting. Arguing is not gaslighting. Arguing, then insisting the argument never happened so that the other person starts to question if they are just imagining things is gaslighting.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 12:15:05
edit_date: 2022-05-16 12:15:30
content:
  whatever it is then when you get a group together and try to convince them something that's clearly obvious to be not true


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 14:47:12
content:
  Yes secretly plotting, everydayallday, just to come reply to you about something youve said inaccurately. Youre always trying to create the next rumor about furries, so its not surprising when people jump on the post.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 14:48:34
content:
  I'm going to be honest. I gave into the siren call of people being wrong on the internet while monitoring for new user questions :<


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 14:51:15
content:
  Not creating this one specifically, but you certainly push them. But the rumor I speak is that you say Geenz might be money greedy on this new patreon which is just false by basic research.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 15:10:46
content:
  Most speculation carried out here has to do with NCR, Karel, or something else Neos related. You on the other hand are speculate on a personal level. Investigating Firr's profile(s) in depth just to poke at him and call him a troll, saying Geenz is greedy by experience, making Froox out to be a false victim because he made a Patreon, etc.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 15:13:38
edit_date: 2022-05-16 15:13:44
content:
  I did not say that was speculation. But you say they are a troll, and point back to that to make it justified


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:19:05
content:
  and the rest I wish you spent atleast even a tenth of the effort you do responding to him here toward toning back some of the ugly smearing going on in thr discord


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:23:31
content:
  People on the discord were literally complaining about no new Karel drama. No posts on social media to complain about or mine for fake controversies


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:25:50
content:
  And I know what I'm saying is landing on deaf ears anyway, I doubt any of you really wants things to come together


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:27:05
content:
  most of us take it as meaning that settling or coming to terms might be off the table now between the cofounders


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:28:10
content:
  well I want to believe that too. My take is: if this was just about Karel and Froox, it would be resolved. It's about Froox's friends, and also the community is a buffer that vindicates this destructivr cycle we have ongoing


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:31:33
content:
  I'm not so sure, I have my own theories and I think community played atleast some role in escalating these tensions for sure. I also thing the distinction between certain community members and "the team" is very thin or hardly existent


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:34:46
content:
  and the way the responsibilities are divided means that for some god awful reason the team decided that normal NCR holders needed to be dragged into the crossfire


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:35:43
content:
  well probably not, I'm not sure. In the months leading up to all of this and during, the community was on fire though


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:40:44
content:
  I guess so. My experience has usually been people asking if they should get it or whatever, but never this angle that its a moral wrong that should be attacked


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:42:15
content:
  its not really at a point of being a "no thanks" to being this quasi right wing thing or something in online discourse


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:43:06
content:
  yeah, I mean I think the youngeer crowd (like furries) hate that they cant get a cheap gpu and also theres maybe some degree of jealousy or anxiety involved


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:44:15
content:
  but whatever I dont reallly want to force it on anyone, just want to merely be allowed to exist and keep using it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 17:47:38
content:
  every teen is a gamer now and a PC one at that. gaming isnt this niche anymore and everyone wants these easy to scalp things


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 18:31:30
content:
  Crypto isn't to blame for the chip shortage, however the specific demands of mining have exacerbated the supply chain issues. So much is this the case that Nvidia is getting in hot water for misrepresenting their bottom line wrt crypto vs mass market sales to their investors.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 18:35:17
content:
  They are mostly trending down (to their msrp) due to the new Gen being close to be released. Soo... yeah that were always the case.


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 18:36:03
content:
  I hope the new gen will be affordable, I do need more power for VR and what comes after Valve Index >_>"


type: message
date: 2022-05-16 21:35:47
content:
  we'll see. maybe they'll try to generate buzz around eth classic or something else gpu oriented or they'll sell their rigs


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 13:06:53
content:
  Forking the coin is a terrible idea. They should take CZ’s advice and burn the insane token supply to try and add value for the existing holders who lost everything.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 18:46:37
edit_date: 2022-05-18 02:03:09
content:
  Are things carrying on? I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but no-one is keeping on eye on critical Neos infrastructure like the relay which keeps either breaking or going down completely, which turns the ability to join sessions into a game of Russian roulette. It's been an absolute nightmare keeping the MetaMovie project going with the Neos network in such a barely usable state.

  And promotion? Why in gods name would you promote a platform that isn't being developed anymore, isn't getting anything fixed and, as mentioned above, has critical network infrastructure issues. What's worse is the continual passing the buck. The GitHub gets ignored, the "team" on the Neos livestream plead ignorance... so WHO is responsible for keeping things ticking over at this point?

  The website is literally the least of anyone's worries at this stage.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 19:04:52
content:
  I can vouch at the relay systems are not doing very well. Found this out the hard way when I updated my network with Enterprise hardware.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 19:05:44
content:
  Though, curious: would using force port on the headless clients resolve the LNL transfer issues similar to when using the steam system?


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 19:30:26
content:
  Nope, Neos (wrongly) tries to use the relay before connecting directly, resulting in the connection (silently) failing if the relay is broken. Or, in some cases, it'll connect, the person will sound and look like a broken mess and they'll end up ejected from the session shortly afterwards.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 19:30:56
content:
  It's another bug that never got fixed which is now even more of an issue as the infra slowly falls apart.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 19:56:25
content:
  the lnl direct would contain the IP and Port of the headless and clients would directly connect, no NAT punching, no relay


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 19:59:14
content:
  alright, that's what I thought, but if Enverex's concern is to be taken into account, it seems to be random if that works or doesn't. I did have this occur the previous night with a headless, but I haven't tested it on my own setup yet


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:04:46
content:
  That's what I've had to make for the staff and actors to get into the sessions reliably. But obviously that doesn't work well trying to wrangle customers in as it means someone needs to get to them to give them a card, they can't just accept an invitation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:05:37
content:
  Remember that the customers here are normally not technically literate at all, so adding steps and random failure chance is very bad.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:07:21
content:
  It likely was. Things are much more stable now that we're basically making everyone use the emergency access cards, but obviously it's a lot more of a faff trying to get people that aren't familiar with Neos or VR, those cards, to then try and get in.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:09:08
content:
  The bigger concern is that no-one seems to be monitoring this relay or give a shit about the state it's in. There's also only one in the US somewhere and given how badly Neos handles latency, it means if anyone in Eastern Europe or further east gets pushed through it, it'll be an absolute mess even if it was working properly.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:10:58
content:
  I mean he has a point. If the dev team didn't want the platform to die, you'd think they'd still at least maintain it. Is the plan for them to kill Neos at this point?


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:12:19
content:
  I get complete non-answers on the live stream from all the members of the dev team. The GitHub gets ignored completely. Karel doesn't respond. Andrea doesn't respond. So... what is there left?


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:14:32
content:
  I've already personally gone back to VRChat completely. I am, however, responsible for the MetaMovie project in a professional capacity and they cannot move platforms, hence my hammering on at the team for resolutions to these issues.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:15:52
content:
  Cop-out. You think the legal issues disallow them from fixing existing infrastructure? They already stated they are on strike, that's not them being blocked from acting due to legal issues.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:24:17
content:
  To anyone else that did extensive dev work inside Neos, were you sent an "experimental" export tool for exporting content back out of Neos?


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:30:19
content:
  I've been trying to export my own content out of Neos for some time and the official export tool in-program is... a train wreck and doesn't work most of the time to the point where often when it fails, it requires a full restart of Neos to unbreak itself. It's infuriating. I've not tried this ExportX as I'm not sure I trust it,


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:31:22
content:
  I mean, you could just decompile or just view the source code, assuming that the code is on GitHub or whatever. But I get what you mean either way.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:35:04
content:
  I'm trying to export my cinema. Doing it in one go failed, so I tried room by room, that also fails in almost every case in various different ways, often with a complete subsystem crash and internal stacktrace, leaving Neos a dead man walking.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 20:36:15
content:
  It's not on GitHub, it's precompiled, it appears to be an official tool but I'll ignore it's existence for now as I'm not sure it would export things in tact anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:03:32
content:
  I experimented a little with that bjson exporter, but it's not going to be super useful in your case. It'll return a json discription of the scene with a bunch of cloud urls.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:06:49
content:
  You might conceivably be able to use it to download the meshx and other assets if you have no other way to get them, though to my knowledge meshx isn't publicly documented. >.>


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:08:20
content:
  I can download objects one by one in game anyway. I need to download entire areas though, this is a full, populated world. Doing individual objects is unfeasible and wouldn't result in keeping anything in place anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:14:32
content:
  ...wasn't there also talk about the pro neos license changing or something less than a week ago? No details, just that it was going to be redone as something new?


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:18:23
content:
  It's feasible that someone could write you a tool for this, but I don't think it exists yet. You could talk to runtime about it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:19:47
content:
  It was sold listing features that didn't and still don't exist and there's been talk of discontinuing it (I assume because it's being sold illegally, given that it is advertising features that don't exist).


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:21:21
content:
  https://t.me/c/1314262393/19248
  "Not planned at this time, one universal subscription with increased storage and other perks to succeed both Pro and Patreon is planned long term."


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:30:14
content:
  That explains why Ive been joining sessions and being kicked immediately after, and same with others, and having to rejoin a few times


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:31:22
edit_date: 2022-05-18 05:54:59
content:
  The worst part is asking the Friday live stream team which included at least 4 members of the team. Their response? "Oh, seems fine for me" and that's it. Amazing, well done guys.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:31:51
content:
  I can't tell whether it's stupidity, ignorance or incompetence at this point. None of which are good.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:32:32
content:
  I'm just stick of the lack of professionalism of the team and the fact that those of us that have invested so much in the platform are just being left hanging like this. Angry beyond words.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:33:29
content:
  like, an alternative headless mode where you can just spin it up as an unofficial relay, add it to your own access list, and use that instead


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:38:35
content:
  ....I mean... weird idea: what if the relays are working, but some of the bills on certain ones were forgotten to be paid, and that's why we're seeing a high failure rate?


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:40:31
content:
  I'd assume there's a 'master' relay who then just says "Go here" to distribute the load, but was it ever checked if the system knows when a relay gets knocked out?


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:40:56
content:
  That could also be a thing, we don't fully know why the relays are having issues right now and assuming it has to do with the dev team specifically is just kinda pointing fingers


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:41:51
content:
  I'd say the dev team saying "seems fine for me" is a bad thing but if they currently aren't working, they're probably not willing to investigate it directly, and haven't noticed any issues themselves


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:41:59
content:
  The cloud infrastructure could use some work. It's not particularly robust in the basic architecture at the moment.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:42:24
content:
  ...could just press more heat on the situation? I mean, I definately know the issue is present, and my network is now extra sensitive due to my pfSense install


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:54:21
content:
  That's the unfixed bug I was talking about which historically has been annoying, but only delayed connections slightly. Now when the relay is misbehaving, it causes complete failures instead. Fixing these things should have been a priority years ago.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 21:55:09
content:
  It's why if you're in the EU or further out, even when it's not misbehaving, you *really* don't want to get routed through it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-17 23:41:34
content:
  just relaying the response from the moderation team that it's been brought up and will be looked into, so that's good. Maybe the LNL relay needs a cookie


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 00:21:45
edit_date: 2022-05-18 00:24:05
content:
  Karel is ghosting again. What did you do today as a CEO? Is there anything you do except buyback and twitter?


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 03:54:03
content:
  Unfortunately that was after I'd gone to bed. But this isn't a one off, it's happened before multiple times, it keeps happening and they keep blowing it off. What did they say this  time?


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 10:12:04
content:
  But I can't get in touch,because I'm not in contact.
  But if i want to show your project informations on my platform(www.unimeta.pro)for free,please let me know if you re interested.Karel Andrea


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:02:04
content:
  To me? Depends how much louder I can be alone. 

  But to an entire group with a signed petition? Kinda hard to ignore. 

  Not suggesting I be the representative, but there does need to be a representative. 

  If it were me I happen to be very loud, good at getting noticed, when I want to be noticed, and I work for a startup tech company that hasn't really gone anywhere yet but will soon enough... With a boss who is even louder and willing to help me network.

  Dunno if that's representative material, but I can at least get the representative noticed by very loudly giving the signal "HEY LOOK AT THIS PETITION!"


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:11:44
content:
  And what we need to organise is our voice in making the developers and karel see how badly some of us have been hurt, see the damage that occurs to people's lives when a crypto project people believed in, a security (white paper disclaimers do not make it not a security) that people expected to mean something... Goes belly up and dies. 

  We need to make sure that we are represented fairly and we can make a strong point as to why we (those affected and sympathisers) think that NCR needs to be fairly deployed (by Karel of course, not by the Devs) as the primary transaction infrastructure for Neos that it was advertised to us as. 

  Not some 3rd party proprietary system that no one uses because the alternative is better.

  NCR itself needs to be made better. Many options for that. Could move to a different chain or just wrap the token for the big issue of the fact that it's Ethereum which is bad for the environment in its current form and has such high transaction fees no one will want to use it unless something is done.

  Then there is the issue of functionality. Use case. Something that can be used to a far greater extent than it is speculated on. 

  That's its own thing and we should put forward ideas and vote on them.

  But basically, by this point, they are already too deep in this to back out and we are too deep in this for them to back out.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:20:33
content:
  Just look at what happened to Terra and it's Coins.

  Some people took their own lives over that. 

  People expect that anyone who invests in something knows the risks and only invests what they are prepared to lose and if they didn't, well too bad, screw them right? Like it's their fault they lost years worth of savings or years worth of hard earned accumulated gains from navigating the volatile warzone of investing. 

  Have some empathy.

  People die when things like this happen, because the hurt can be really bad.

  Nobody expected an irresponsible twitter battle to break out between Karel and the Devs... Nobody expected the Devs after advertising the token for something which has not been achieved yet... To turn around and say it's not their problem, and that it never was, despite all that was said about it before this all happened. Now quietly sitting behind a hate mob further pushing people to the edge where life is at risk.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:25:39
content:
  Even while using NCR in game, plenty of people sold it to others and received payment with paypal or similar service


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:26:57
content:
  There is just not an ingame or 'sane' way for most people to get fiat currency out of NCR used in game


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:27:09
content:
  That's an issue but the main thing here is that NCR continue to be the main means of transaction. Which means when the marketplace happens, which will be where all the Neos Economy is going to aggregate along with the Job System... It has to be NCR being used. Any other solution is going to render the token useless and void the expectations that were set in their advertising of the token, all the things they told us about the Marketplace.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:27:55
content:
  in a more ideal state, the estimate shown in game should be within a fairly small margin of what you can actually receive out of it


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:30:28
content:
  For example, Solana has transaction fees less than 1 cent transaction fees, and is very eco friendly, and easy to use. As for stellar Lumens well if you have the right services you don't even need to sell that, I have bought groceries with it before.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:31:36
content:
  which leads people to either use an external payment processor/service or just trade NCR ingame back and forth without ever intending to remove it as there aren't any fees for in game transactions to other players


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:33:07
content:
  It shouldn't be THAT hard to migrate it off to a different chain. 

  If Karel is doing all those buy backs could he not just mint a new token and give it to all NCR holders 1:1 in exchange, instead of of buying it with other currencies?


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:34:03
content:
  In the case of a marketplace existing, It would also be not out of the question to potentially see just multiple payment options. some of which 'external' but supported more directly


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:38:40
content:
  They are adding the marketplace and the transaction system needs to be NCR, natively, built in. 

  If a different system is built in people won't even have to do their transactions outside of Neos. They can just do it right there meaning even less people using NCR.

  That is what matters most to me right now, the other stuff does matter, you are making valid points, these will need to be addressed....

  But this is about principals. This is about betrayal, deceit, and disinterest in the lives impacted by this fueled by blind hate.

  People kill themselves over massive crypto losses like this. Plenty of people in there probably hanging on by a thread while a hate charged community acts like they deserve the financial destruction caused and trying to villify and in general just be highly toxic because apparently technology enthusiasts don't deserve the wealth and livelihood sucked right out of many. Many of whom just have an innocent, curious, awe-filled love of new technologies that have the power to change the world for what they believe is a brighter future regardless of whether or not it actually is a brighter future. It's what they believed in.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:41:59
content:
  Multiple payment options can only happen once NCR investors, holders and enthusiasts have been made whole.

  You can do that by implimenting it and making a slow and smooth transition to a better option.

  Or they can violate the social contract beyond the whitepaper that has been written through years of development, showcases, discussions on the future and talk of what is to come. To name a few examples.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:43:48
content:
  They have already committed and I really would like to avoid mentioning the implications of what throwing those who bought the "Scam" they participated in the peddling of for quite some time are.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:45:45
content:
  It wasn't a scam, Karel would not have poured so much into the liquidity pool (which probably should have first gone to the developers but that's another issue) during this time if it was. But what is happening is that people have been scammed by this token, which Karel intended to follow through with, but the Devs are the ones invalidating the expectations that Solirax set.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:48:35
content:
  Ok.

  For the reference, I am not taking sides in or participating in the whole Karel vs Froox thing here at all.

  I have no right to participate in a drama that is between them.

  What I and other NCR holders are owed, what we have the right to, is a prominent and established role in determining what is to be the fate of NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:55:33
content:
  It is a security, with an ownership contract, held in wallets that give us the custody, and expectations fostered by not just Karel but other members of the Team in regards to what we were sold represents for the Future. 

  Essentially they have committed to this to the point that they cannot back out.

  Either they make it the sole transaction system to be used in the launch of the Marketplace and Jobs system and keep it that way (And if that is what they do I strongly recommend changing to a different blockchain that is environmentally friendly and cheap to use)

  Or they make it the sole transaction system and slowly phase it out as a new system is introduced gently in a way that does not upset the market but gives it plenty of chances to self migrate.

  OR they do whatever they want and compensate NCR holders in some way so as to make them whole.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 11:56:18
content:
  Abandoning it and replacing it is a very severe violation of the trust that was established between the Devs and the Community.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 13:37:44
edit_date: 2022-05-18 15:38:20
content:
  This is just a gibberish pipe dream. Of course they can ignore it, theyved ignored everyone else. It would take them literally zero effort to ignore a petition or anything else you intend to do. You're writing as though you're petitioning to some government entity, not a barely functional group of randoms. Adding some crypto vote thing would make this even more of a laughing stock too, it's literally the last thing anyone needs right now.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 15:29:45
content:
  Honestly, to add to this, this is something most projects fail to understand. Adding more steps to anything just increases the likelihood of user dissatisfaction. We don't need a blockchain text storage in place of a feedback system, because compared to literally everything else, that is adding more hoops than should ever be needed to type a message. If its more complicated than an email, it's most likely not going to be received well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 15:34:47
content:
  Even with my counter argument with GitHub, it is a technical system. If adding a Canny-like system to the equation would improve things, and is manageable by the team that works with their workflow, considering that there are free alternatives, I don't see anything wrong with that


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 15:41:01
edit_date: 2022-05-18 17:23:30
content:
  That was clearly hyperbole by friends of Froox, otherwise the police should have been involved. They were all so close to him for years, if he was really locked in a basement, why didnt anyone contact the authorities? The more I hear from these people, the more it sounds like some rabid fanfic to drum up support.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 16:49:30
content:
  Right, so kidnapping, or at best imprisonment. Why didn't Froox or any of his orbiters contact the authorities?


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 16:50:11
edit_date: 2022-05-18 18:18:20
content:
  Unless, you know, it's not really how it sounds and it's being framed for purposes of making Karel look worse.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 16:52:52
content:
  I think someone clarified in the discord that those types of two-way locks are commonplace in czech and that froox didn't have the new key because he never really left the house and didn't even know locks had been changed. the most important piece they omit of course is that froox was never actually prevented from leaving.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 16:58:13
content:
  People jumped on it, definitely. Though holy crap I would not want to have to go through that. It would absolutely spike my anxiety and I have no idea how the heck people deal with having those kind of locks.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 16:59:28
edit_date: 2022-05-19 20:06:22
content:
  Ah, so a completely innocent incident framed as a hit piece, got it. I'd expect no less from the people I know spend time glued to the game at this point.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 17:29:39
content:
  They had a shared key that Karel forgot to take out of his pocket. He literally opened the door immediately when Frooxius told him the door was locked.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 17:44:21
content:
  They were saving money by sharing a workspace. This is ordinary for a startup situation. It is the most classic first chapter of a successful startup that you see over and over.

   Frooxius did not want to have to deal with money. He explicitly explained in his own blog that this was an intentional collaborative setup. He positioned himself so that all he would have to worry about was development and Karel would take care of the rest. This included running the business, housework, cooking, and cleaning.

  He was literally Fooxius's God damn nanny for multiple years with the intention of clearing the way so Frooxious could develop. The moment the project found financial success Frooxious stabbed Karel in the back.


type: message
date: 2022-05-18 17:48:48
content:
  The extent to which the discord community and the volunteers stretch and mold vague statement by Frooxious is infuriating.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 02:30:09
content:
  We are quite limited in how we can resolve this at the moment because our new hosting doesn't support the old .html extension so we had to be somewhat creative with the 404 page (apparently the team is not willing to change the link for the account confirmation). Essentially we had to accommodate the fact that this page will be displayed to users that are creating a new account and also serving as generic 404 error page. This is not an ideal solution, of course, but at least it provides some feedback to the new user for now.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 03:09:56
edit_date: 2022-05-19 03:27:57
content:
  And nobody has “run away”.
  Just because things are quiet on the outside doesn’t mean that nothing is happening.☺️

  We will get you up to speed when meaningful updates are available.😊
  The negotiation process continues in a meantime and both parties are trying to find a good outcome but the situation remains delicate so we simply refrain from releasing any information for now.

  I have been in contact with several people in Neos, discussing options of cooperation in order to keep things moving in this transition time and while there is largely a sentiment of people sticking to their cause, I feel for those who’s livelihoods have been disrupted and I would hope that the team can have that in the forefront of their mind as well.

  I’m available in Neos to discuss things in a proactive manner and work with anyone who understands that we need to remain civil and objective about the situation in order to start minimising the toll this is taking on people.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 07:23:56
content:
  I'm... sorry, but that's a terrible excuse. You can just take an HTML page and rename it to php extension and it will run just fine. I'm not as versed with ASP/ASP.NET, but I'd assume roughly the same thing. Even then, the verification page IS an HTML document... so clearly the site can very much support traditional web files.

  If someone can just verify by purposefully 404ing themselves, that is a massive security issue.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:00:48
content:
  What Waz said, this is a "my first website" style builder for tech illiterate people and is very rigid in what it can do. It lets you make a website in 5 minutes, but you're locked into it being "on rails" as far as how it works goes. It's also why it looks *identical* to a bunch of crypto websites (which also makes it look very scammy, unfortunately).


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:27:41
content:
  So... They have the site running on their own server or off a service site that hosts the kit? If it's their own server, then that sounds like a downgrade if the kit suddenly reduces what the web hosting engine is allowed to do


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:29:36
content:
  I mean, from what I understand, the account management system is sort of its own thing. If they are doing email validations, it should be going through that, not the main site. Especially since it is its own subdomain


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:30:04
content:
  Almost certainly hosted with Webflow as a self-contained thing. If you notice, accounts and such all point to a subdomain, they don't use neos.com directly.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:31:59
content:
  I guess that then goes back to what I just said regarding that, the account system in the main site are two different entities , yet are somehow using one to validate the other. That's a very messy setup and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some security concern with that, especially on a plain vanilla HTML page


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:32:59
content:
  What do you mean "one to validate the other"? The main site is just a dummy show site, it has no authentication and does nothing special. All functional Neos systems are on subdomains.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:34:45
content:
  I'd have to create another account to test it, but from what I understand from what I just read above, when you use the validation link in the verification email, apparently it makes the 404 page appear instead of a direct verification page. This is why the verify email web page is a link. This also means that technically speaking, nothing is actually validated on the HTML page unless there is some JS tom foolery


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:36:18
content:
  Unless, the validation link goes to a verification page, which then attempts to redirect to a page that now no longer exists, resulting in the 404. If that's the case, then that is a rather poor way of handling ( or I guess I should say not handling) corrections to the redirect


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:37:10
content:
  It's the latter, it goes to a validation system which then forwards you back to a page that doesn't exist.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 08:39:07
content:
  I mean, I used to use WordPress and despite the weird processing it did, I was still able to make my own folders and pages that were not processed by WordPress itself. A template is only a template after all , but I digress


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 13:16:46
content:
  The issue is the tool they are using just doesn't support uris with file extensions, so the final confirmation page 404s.
  https://university.webflow.com/lesson/page-urls
  They just need to update that confirmation uri on the account creation form to one of the 'slugs' webflow does support.

  But uh... I have no idea why you'd tether yourself to this site building tool when you know your end application needs tight integration with an existing custom codebase. At the very least we're going to have inconsistent styling.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 13:44:00
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:25:03
content:
  But the existing devs are on strike and not talking to him, so essentially they don't exist at this point, as far as the business is concerned.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 13:52:04
content:
  It's now been 7 months, clearly there's no negotiation happening. It's going to end up going the hard legal route, if that isn't already what's happening.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 13:54:13
content:
  A new website and trailer were promised ages ago, maybe he just got sick of the old one and did this, who knows. All I've heard about the trailer that seemed to be in development for forever was that Nex kept sabotaging it so that his own video would remain front and center on Steam and that's the main reason he was fired.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 13:56:03
content:
  What, trying to salvage the dream that the team (yes, the whole team, not just Karel) sold to the userbase, before some choice comments by Froox tanked the value and lost people literally tens of millions of dollars?


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:00:19
content:
  He was the one who was supposed to be working on it with other people. If it takes you nearly 2 years to make a trailer, it's either sabotage or gross incompetence. Which is it?


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:01:17
edit_date: 2022-05-19 20:24:21
content:
  That's not even remotely close to being the only reason, given that lots of people with large investments were piping up as to why they were dumping when the public quarrels kept getting posted in Discord.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:02:22
content:
  I gave up on anything getting done long ago. Probably around the 2 month mark, at this point, 7 months in, I'm happy to tell people to never ever work with anyone even remotely associated with this project ever again because my god, this is a fucking train wreck of epic proportions.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:03:47
content:
  I'm not shouting, not sure why you claim I am. I came here to see if Karel or Andrea were responsive.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:04:52
content:
  There is no place for feedback Cyro, Froox and his armour of many orbiters exist in their own little protected space that no-one can get to anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:05:47
content:
  No Cyro, I still have a lot of stuff trapped in this platform, so I'm going to continue to complain until either I feel better, or something happens.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:06:25
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:33:08
content:
  You're certainly not helping are you, but I guess you need something to do when your nose isn't buried up Froox's asshole.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:09:51
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:14:38
content:
  I am angry beyond words at the team, not Karel specifically, but all of the team. None of this needed to happen, everything could have been resolved without it turning into this mess, but here we are. People have lost a lot of time and money, the platform will likely die making all of the effort people have put into making content for it also worthless. All my NCR? Worthless. All the assets I paid for to make content? Worthless. Everything I made inside Neos? Trapped there as the shitty export process doesn't work and it won't get fixed. All the money I've spent running systems for Neos? Pointless. The 2000+ hours I spent making content for the eventual userbase that would have come? Never going to happen. I literally cannot even type how unimaginably wound up I am at everyone involved in this project.]


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:10:52
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:15:18
content:
  Ask what Froox's team want? "It's not about the money" so what fucking is it about? Oh, all the arguments sound like they're arguments about money. So it IS about the money, but all you'll say is "it's not about the money"? WHAT?! Fucking... Argh.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:15:08
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:44:48
content:
  You know the best part? I'm struggling with housing at the moment, NCR when it finally grew enough was going to be my ticket out of a rent trap, but I needed the value to stabilise for a bit for accounting and tax reasons. It went from being worth enough for me to finally get somewhere, to being virtually worthless after all the shit slinging. Life changing amounts evaporated in days because autistic idiots that can't function in a normal society couldn't act like NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS for just one brief period in their fucking life.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:18:21
content:
  I wasn't "relying on crypto for a house". I've been scraping by and this would have been some actual usable capital. It wasn't like I had a downpayment due.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:19:31
content:
  Bruh, I don't use simple web services. If I want a website, I spin up a Linux machine or container, setup LEMP, and tweak the config for more performance. Pretty sure I know web servers, but the more I hear about the limits of this webflow junk, the more pathetic this gets.
  Neos is supposed to be a technical marvel, and its website reflects none of that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:19:51
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:38:48
content:
  Anyway, I'm well aware that lack of empathy comes with autism so I'm not expecting anything good from this conversation. I'm going to bail now because you're all just pissing me off more. So unless you're about to tell me you're going to find the Neos team, tie them to fucking chairs and hold them at gun point until they actually come to an agreement right now, I'm out.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:21:19
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:46:32
content:
  You know Neos is just known as "that game filled with autists and furries that have been banned from everywhere else" at this point? That's Neos' legacy. That's what it's going to die as, the "last stop" for people that literally don't fit anywhere else.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:22:31
content:
  Because you've never felt like you had your own opinion, you and the other people that orbit around Froox just seemed to be some sort of cult hivemind, it was always creepy as fuck.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:23:45
content:
  The fact you're so focused on just the currency system and not the fact that the real issue lies in the platform itself clearly shows what priorities you have.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:27:37
content:
  I'd agree with you if this was day one, but as it's not and "Keep an eye on the announcements channel SMILEY FACE" is all you get from the team now and people who are glued to Neos act like everything is going to be fine despite it not being and shun anyone that thinks otherwise, I really don't care what they think.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:29:21
content:
  It's the way the team do it, as if something's about to happen. Don't tell someone to "keep an eye on a channel" when you damnwell know fuck all is happening. It's disrespectful and gives people false hope.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:30:29
content:
  Froox is going to get absolutely wrecked due to his Patreon if this has gone to legal. "It's not to pay for Neos stuff WINK" will unsurprisingly not hold up under legal scrutiny.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:32:14
content:
  Doesn't matter, they have their assigned positions. Joint ownership just relates to shares and sale of the business.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:32:39
content:
  You are correct regarding tax though, they're going to get taxed on... 40M+ and pay for it with... what?


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:33:56
content:
  He was trying to salvage the value, while Froox' comments tanked it. They both fucked up. The fact that people still act like Froox is some perfect martyr is infuriating in itself.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:36:08
content:
  Remember, Froox didn't want anything to do with the money, he only wanted to code. Isn't that the thing people keep saying?


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:36:42
content:
  "NCR was all Karel's idea, Froox never wanted it!" OK, so why should Froox get any say in what happens to the money raised from NCR if that's true?


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:37:21
content:
  Ah, so when Karel does something bad, it's Karel's fault. But when Karel does something good, it's the Company.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:40:26
content:
  I may not use official terms and what not, but I have actively worked with these systems. Hell, I worked with them enough to often improve the services of other people during the early VR days when all content wasn't hosted in some cloud storage.

  But whatever.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:42:19
content:
  If you seriously think that sex on VRchat and other platforms do not happen, then holy shit, do I have news for you...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:43:41
edit_date: 2022-05-19 14:55:32
content:
  It does, but it's not all it's known for. Neos has a rep of being dgen already due to the lack of "normies" and now it's haemorrhaging users, it's just going to get worse.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:47:19
content:
  The team and mods basically never play anything other than Neos and their perception of other platforms are normally laughably incorrect and outright maliciously wrong.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:49:03
content:
  Nope, it'll be a tax nightmare, so I'm just leaving it in my Neos account to rot, as a reminder to never support these people ever again. I'm honestly still more salty at the 2500+ hours I put into making content than that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:49:44
content:
  If I didn't know better, I'd say that the Neos content exporter doesn't work properly as a way to force people to stay on the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:50:24
content:
  Oh, you have no fucking clue how taxes work then. It's worse in that case: it's a full on positive, and do I have news fo ryou when you have 100% gain on capital.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:51:21
content:
  I'm in the process of trying to move everything from Neos to VRC but as the exporter is a worthless piece of shit and hasn't been fixed, like the other 1600 open GitHub issues, my stuff is being held hostage.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:51:23
content:
  I didn't put money in either except through the Patreon. I didn't shove X ETH into the system because coming from my previous employment, screw Ethereum


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 14:57:06
content:
  oh, do I have pose as a tax person now? Let me tell you something: it wasn't a full 100%, but that's because I had to manually do my crypto taxes this year, all because of my 2014 wallet I recovered. If I didn't consult an expert and get it resolved, I'd owe 10k, all because I didn't know the original values, acquired dates, and due to the value based on the highest peak.

  Taxes for crypto can be a nightmare unless you observe everything and keep proper notes on it. So selling NCR and the crazy train ride it has to take before it becomes actual tangable money? Each step is its own tax entry, complete with date mangement, value at the time of sale and acquisition. THere are tools for it, but after my own experience, it can't calculate jack.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:02:41
content:
  have you looked in a mirror? Most anyone would be frustrated by people like yourself, furry or not. It's called being a normal person.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:06:53
content:
  Neos has only negative reputation from anyone I've ever spoken to outside of Neos that hasn't already tried it. Ironically the ones that have tried it have an almost worse and well cemented view on it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:10:58
content:
  Chillout sold itself as a "better performing" VRC competitor. Once VRC's performance improved and they added more features, Chillout had little reason to exist. The few benefits it had over VRC didn't make it worth the jump given where everyone already was.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:12:50
content:
  None of the issues have really been addressed. The UIX/UX is still horrendous, doing anything like importing an avatar and getting things working is still confusing as hell and full of bugs, terrible performance with more than a few users, VLC crashes, etc.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:13:14
content:
  VRC has literally MILLIONS of monthly users, at this point it'll have people of every type using it. Are you holding the entire userbase responsible for the actions of literally one or two random people?


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:16:34
content:
  To add, when HiFi shutdown, people were more focused on trying to raise its user scores by 'upvoting against the trolls' over actually solving the issues, and back then, it was open source, so instead of waiting on the team to add features, people could have added it themselves. People are VERY protective of their main platforms.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:19:01
content:
  For me, it's mostly controls or audio with the people I've dealt with. They are glad they can tweak the controls, but it's complaint #2... with #1 being the UI everytime (since you need to deal with it to fix #2). Audio though... HiFi had this issue as well, where the default world settings are trash.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:22:17
content:
  Karel said that he's paying people but they are refusing, and remember, as the team kept saying "It's not about the money"...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:22:41
edit_date: 2022-05-19 15:23:04
content:
  quite a similar statement to the most popular review back on HiFi: 
  "It has potential." 
   
  And that's all it has. 
  Check back in a decade.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:24:30
content:
  That was my issue with Neos. I hate it in it's current state, building in it is PAINFUL compared to Unity but I stuck around and built content for WHAT IT COULD BE. The slow development was painful but it felt like eventually things would get better. That's why development stopping was even worse than just "no new features" given that I was around for "future Neos" not "current Neos". Then of course you have the fact that Neos will continue to lose ground to other platforms while they deny this under the delusion that "but Neos isn't competing with VRChat!".


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:26:01
content:
  not to pour fuel on the fire, but I have a sneaking feeling you might like the source review then: https://steamcommunity.com/id/wunkay/recommended/390540/


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:26:42
content:
  just don't end up like them... they got so burned out from everything, they flat out quit doing content creation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:28:04
content:
  I've only just stared making things again. I was so burnt out after knowing that the Neos setup was worthless that I questioned if I would ever bother trying to make anything again. So it's safe to say I am burnt out.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:32:04
content:
  The shark had indeed been jumped by that point. And yes, it was a shit poll and a shit way of doing it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:33:53
content:
  I'd actually wager that did the most damage out of all current events. That one actually lead to a heavier downward spiral on both NCR value and user concurrency, as well as overall opinion both in and out of Neos. The discord user count did skyrocket... but for the wrong reasons.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:42:11
content:
  More disingenuous bullshit on Twitter. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/976872372575543326/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:47:15
content:
  Resolving a legal dispute is not "development". See this conversation right now, this is the cult nonsense I was referring to. No normal person would be defending that position like this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:48:39
content:
  ...to be fair, things like the LNL relay issue, which can actually prevent the platform from functioning, might require actual attention... I dunno, just run updates on the server and reboot it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:49:37
content:
  The Neos team either don't care about the relay or don't know how to fix it. That's one thing that's made me realise Neos is in no way usable as a business platform either, the devs show lack of care bordering on contempt for the users when it comes to critical breakages like that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:50:08
content:
  The QC team have no power over the relay, they just do some diagnostics from the outside to confirm if it's broken when I poke them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:51:05
content:
  It was, but from what I've been slowly hearing, it's been one of those 'overtime' issues that started much further back and has been more of an issue now. I didn't really get hit by it until I upgraded my network hardware, but now that I have and am impacted by it, I can see the issues more broadly and often


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 15:54:58
content:
  That's what I've had to do for the MetaMovie, I've literally had to make people direct access cards for them to get in with, which is a real fucking nightmare when we're trying to get non-technical paying customers in who aren't familiar with VR, nevermind Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:03:04
content:
  Ok, so for what other reason do they not fix the relay (or at least be professional and at least add some fucking monitoring so you know it's having issues rather than relying on your userbase to start reporting that everything is broken) or fix the broken LNL stack so that it doesn't fuck up and try literally the last resort first...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:05:02
content:
  Clearly you've got no idea what you're talking about because you said the QC were looking into it. They've been spotting when it's down for the best part of a year now, but they A) aren't in control of the server and B) Can't fix the code. So the QC team won't be able to do anything.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:05:55
content:
  You mean open a GitHub? The same GitHub which has now been completely ignored by the team since last year and any issues raised there now are completely ignored? INCLUDING THIS ONE.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:06:30
content:
  Cyro just stop, it's clear you're going to say any shit to pretend the team are doing things, but we can see from actual literal interaction that they are not.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:12:03
content:
  But you're working on them. The roadmap however is not being worked on and thus it's existence is moot.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:13:09
content:
  Right, but telling people *now* that things are on the roadmap, without them knowing that no-one is actually *doing anything* is highly misleading.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:20:12
content:
  "Community workaround" are not suitable for a professional business environment. Especially when you're talking to, quite often, complete luddites.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:21:29
content:
  Given the thousands of hours, thousands of £s and god knows what else, I think I'm appropriately angry.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:23:44
content:
  Also the fact that Neos Pro was a lie. The majority of that advertised functionality didn't and still doesn't exist. We were going to move off to a locally hosted content shard because the reliability of the Neos infrastructure is in question, but it turns out, none of what they claim actually exists.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:25:47
content:
  I came here because my previous platform shutdown, and I not only sunk thousands of hours of time into it, along with upkeep on server costs for my own worlds and user utility scripts, but also the thousands of hours pouring over the source code to resolve issues, especially when the introduction of 'new features' that were negatively received needed fixing because "adding options was too hard."


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:32:35
content:
  No it wasn't. Froox was just working on whatever he felt like most of the time. The marketplace was the next main feature on the road map more then a year ago and they did not even begin to start on the long list of items they claimed would be needed before the marketplace could be worked on.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 16:32:42
edit_date: 2022-05-19 17:21:19
content:
  The frustration that Enverex feels is entirely justified and he has verbalized what a lot of us are feeling about the situation. In the team's arrogance of believing they could remove Karel and NCR, they have inadvertently killed the future of Neos in the process along with tens of millions of dollars in investor value that could have made Neos a viable competitor to social VR platforms like Horizon and VRChat.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:17:19
content:
  yeah... his concern is over the inability to migrate their work due to a broken exporter, which is due to other outstanding issues, that pre-date the recent events...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:20:50
content:
  you can export individual assets, but there is also a mass exporter that keeps everything organized via JSON, which stores position, rotation, scale, etc. The issue is the mass exporter's asset system is not fully working, as just part of the issue


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:24:47
content:
  Did you even bother to read the backchat? He literally said that NCR was his ticket out of a rent trap but watched life-changing amounts of money evaporate after the barrage of negative announcements from Frooxius. This isn't just about some exporter. Typical furry gaslighting.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:26:53
content:
  ....Tizzy, you clearly didn't read any of it except what you want to read. We're not dismissing the NCR value going down and creating additional hardships, but that wasn't the primary concern at all. It's just a primary concern to YOU. They wanted a fix to the LNL issue because it's been ongoing and has impacted the ability for his managed project to function. In attempts to move to another platform to keep the project functional, the exporter is not functioning either.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:28:12
content:
  so the singular exporter is also acting up? I haven't had issues with it on standard imported stuff, but I have had wonky things happen to baked content.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:29:49
edit_date: 2022-05-19 17:30:17
content:
  I tried exporting 3 different rooms (trying the world as a whole seemed like a bad idea). The first room exported OK. The second room exported a few textures and that was it, no mesh, most of the textures missing - Neos was also silently broken at this point, trying to export anything again would cause Neos to just try the failed export again, more "under the hood" brokenness hidden from the user - had to restart Neos to unbreak it at this stage. The third room I couldn't even get that far, it would just ask me what I wanted to export it as and provide several nonsensical options.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:31:43
content:
  hmm.... and each room is in the same world? That's strange... and I'm going to assume, in terms of how the world was built, the first world was made first? That's even weirder, since you can't say it's age of the content being an issue...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:32:05
content:
  Isnt what you doing here the exact description of gaslighting here?  The lifechanging ncr Dumping took place long before any posts from Froox.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:32:41
content:
  Frooxes posts definitely nailed the coffin there, at least from what I remember of the prices at the time.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:33:42
content:
  oh, it's pretty neat. Images and textures I know the exporter usually shines. Heck, videos even worked.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:35:09
content:
  That would basically render it useless. It's designed for exporting things out of Neos, i.e. this exact scenario.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:37:07
content:
  This is what happens when I try and export the hallway. Complete nonsense. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/976901195685826601/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:40:02
content:
  if you live in the US, you absolutely need to pay in USD. I could try payingn with my Korean Won, but the most I'll get is a funny look and "Where is that from?"


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:40:04
content:
  But yes, this was my complaint. Literally none of my friends play Neos anymore, so the idea was to try and salvage what I've done so far, at least world wise and port it. But it doesn't look like it's going to be possible.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:42:57
content:
  ah okay... was about to say, could use HiFi's JSON exporter to migrate the data that way. It doesn't do models, but the URLs are preserved and could be WGETed with a reader


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:46:12
content:
  Here's another great example of the exporter working well. https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/958670/156892937-af919a02-b432-4686-9fcc-173c283a6b3f.png


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:48:16
content:
  that's so strange.... I wonder if it's due to how the information is packed into the models, like a static texture component


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:49:42
content:
  I'm grabbing the top slot of a room and exporting it that way. It's worked successfully for one single room, all the rest either give me insane dialogues like this, or they start to export and fail silently.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:50:32
content:
  Take your moronic, incoherent ramblings elsewhere. Injecting yourself into conversations that you've apparently spent zero time looking into isn't helpful.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:51:34
content:
  Quite possibly, if that's enabled by default. I remember someone asking for that to not be a thing and the team's response was "Why not? It's fine being on there..."


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:52:21
content:
  And as there's no hierarchy searching or splitting or anything in Neos, it's going to be virtually impossible to find all this :(


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:55:45
content:
  Me: I want to export the entire hallway.
  Neos: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/976905998214246400/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:56:24
content:
  There's like 15000 slots below this and I don't remember ever bringing in an "eating sound" so this is going to be a nightmare.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:58:23
content:
  Quite possibly, that's another nightmare in Neos, random stuff screwing with your worlds. Pair that with no version control and it's a recipe for disaster.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:59:17
content:
  This world takes around 20 minutes to save in Neos, it's horrible. There's a ticket open from 2019 to make the JSON/serialiser better to fix it, but you know...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 17:59:33
content:
  hmm... and during production of the shows, are assets dragged in? I know it sounds silly, but I'm wondering if junk data is making a mess of htings


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 18:00:07
content:
  I would guess if that "eating sound" came from a random user, it should be quite high up in the hierarchy


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 18:00:43
content:
  Users get reparented into a lot of different places here due to culling, so they won't be in the usual location.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 18:01:20
content:
  I mean, I get the frustratoin: Wunkay was part of the Fumbleland project back on HiFi, hence his large review and how simple issues to normal users are massive in a production situation. I haven't been in that position for years, but I understand how frustrating it is, especially given the situation


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 18:04:13
content:
  That was another thing that wound me up with the Neos community, was how they either pretended issues didn't exist, or downplayed everything. Yeah, you may not have these issues when you're fucking each other in private worlds or building the game's 50th fart gun, but when you start building at scale and doing things seriously, Neos *really* falls apart , both from the bugs, lack of basic building functionality or just general limitations which people kinda pretend don't exist.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 18:04:55
content:
  Trying to use Neos after using Unity is like Paint to Photoshop. Neos is missing so much absolutely basic functionality that you'd expect to be there from day 1.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 18:09:02
content:
  I mean... argument withstanding, most anything compared to a major game engine is always going to pale by comparison. Unity is VRChat and Chillouts and... basically the backbone behind many critical projects, and has the budget and development team to boot. Not to mention, it has to compete against Unreal and other engines, and it has a rather helpful community to boot (Seriously, some forum posts really show how good that is).


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 18:37:31
content:
  Uki has managed to get some component interaction in logix, though it's ref hacking. We've used it to modify components across whole scenes, and specifically to strip unnecessary components from imported textures. It may be able to remove those components. I do know that the plugin APi would allow you to do this as well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 19:40:38
content:
  I'd very much like to know more about this tool, all I've been familiar with is exporting all the meshes collectively from a world build as a single fbx or dae file.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 19:56:58
content:
  When I brought up the canny I was basically using it as an example of a better platform to use over a hub for layman users.   Canny or something canny like (there are better alternatives) would go miles beyond what the GitHub would provide communication wise for the community at large in the future, while the GitHub can also be used to facilitate communication with more tech savvy users who are capable of providing detailed big reports and are a bit more knowledgeable with how things work under the hood.  Both have their advantages and using them to their advantages would ensure a much smoother experience for the community and people dealing with tickets.   Also probably beneficial to have staff whose sole priority is dealing with those tickets and providing reports to the devs.  Devs shouldn't dealing dealing directly with it


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 19:58:07
content:
  The main issue with Canny was just the price, but after some simple Googling... there are not only free alternatives, but even open source ones that seem to do a decent job


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:00:26
content:
  As far as I'm concerned it's he/ said they said / hearsay.   Also how do you get locked inside an apartment and not make a stink about it for a long period of time.  That makes no sense


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:03:50
content:
  So basically Karel gave Froox food and board while they were working on a start up they both had equal equity in, yeah the kidnapping and imprisonment stuff sounds like hogwash


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:05:46
content:
  "hey did the locks get changed I have not tried to leave in days because I'm always at the computer I'm going to need a key".  If anything this sounds like Karel just had a brain fart on setting and Froox is could have easily remedies it by going yo you forgot to give me a key


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:12:05
content:
  Agreed, I would also like to take this opportunity to formally apologize for some people in  of my more heated comments recently.  Tensions are high.  Anyone feel free to add me in world to discuss things


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:14:07
content:
  We'd like component access, definitely. Though it's dependent on logix collections. Which is my current priority issue XD


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:14:42
content:
  I on boarded 6 people about a week ago and it was very much a process of me having to tell them to check their email.  After that everything was fine


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:16:19
content:
  It is really annoying to have to deal with the lack of common data structures. I've managed to get around it, but it's always inefficient hacks.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:16:58
content:
  The team shouldn't have input especially if they are going to have employees.   They can have opinions and give it when appropriate but it feels like this whole thing is more them wanting to make overreaching decisions.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:17:08
content:
  Lack of graphs is also why Neos' particle system is missing a lot of the basic functionality that the Unity native basic one has.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:18:47
content:
  There are a few collection editor plugins, but I haven't messed with them. Gareth made a decent particle editor from what I understand.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:18:49
content:
  it's logix. It is mostly based on electrical engineering but is also pushed as a programming language. Any list based system within it just doesn't work. I just don't refer to them as collections. It's just that simple.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:21:02
content:
  As I understood it, he was to edit the trailer and someone else was going to shoot/direct and decide the content of it


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:21:22
content:
  yes, as are lists, vectors, and the like... I get that. I just haven't had to deal with more proper terminology in awhile. I'm 90% self taught and got enough done to graduate with my degree


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:22:19
content:
  So Nex contacted me and said "I would refrain from spreading rumors about me, I was not fired due to the trailer and did no form of "sabotage" on my own work for a year and a half, that's kinda ridiculous" which is all good and fine. But it doesn't answer one question. Why the fuck has it taken over a year and a half and still have no usable product at the end of it? A year and a half, for a TRAILER.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:24:04
content:
  This is an unhinged rant based solely on personal opinion on my book.  It's his money and he can dump if he wants but having money and lots of it doesn't mean he is right


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:25:40
content:
  People around this industry are already well aware, and very much in this mindset of not hiring the current devs for social VR projects or VR adjacent stuff.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:25:42
content:
  ....isn't there there only the two trailers, now that I think about it? the older one from the belt area and then the recent one for the site only? On the steam page, there's just the older one... after the Twitch livestream one


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:27:53
content:
  This is literally almost all you do though.  @RealEnverex is using the chat to talk about what's happening right now, much like most of us.   What's the point?  People want to have conversations about it


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:34:56
content:
  You know people have opinions off Twitter and discord right? This is very much the reputation it has now


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:35:38
content:
  why can't there be relays for major geographical locations? I mean, depending on the vendor, it shouldn't be that complicated.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:37:25
content:
  This is especially problematic when you remember how well Neos handles high latency, or rather, how it doesn't. Which means that anyone too far from the relay (or the combined range of the client and the host from the relay) would result in the session being unusable for that user anyway due to queued packets.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:37:54
content:
  hmm.... yeah, so spinning up additional servers until that is fixed would make things... more complicated


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:38:42
content:
  At the moment I think the LNL relay is a bit of a mess. I don't think it's set up to do load blalencing of any sort.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:40:04
content:
  I mean, I already finished up a network monitoring script to keep an eye on my primary servers and APs, so I can't imagine how hard it'd be to just run ping tests for the most effective one... or just ask the user to pick one in settings like a few game titles do


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:41:39
content:
  Hotake coming in.   Maybe Neos should rely less on peer-to-peer and more on hosted servers.   I understand the reasons why it went peer to peer but that just throw a limitations on what the platform can be ultimately used for.  Not saying stop peer to peer, but having other options for just visiting already published content would not hurt


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:43:04
content:
  That isn't too hard of an ask, honestly. I mean, just have a daily restart at X time every day where for 5 minutes, the relay needs a nap. Maybe an extended down time to run some updates, check some settings.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:44:32
content:
  That's why I've always kept a headless server up. I can't host more than 4 people without the session dying as I only have 5Mb upstream. Though my friend has a 100Mb full duplex line and his sessions still die at 6 users so... yeah :(


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:44:54
content:
  I havn't done much networking code tbh. state management between multiple endpoints might be difficult for NAT punch-through.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:45:02
content:
  It normally takes them a week to fix it AFTER being notified that it's broken. I'm not sure what excuse could be used here...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:46:00
content:
  it's not that bad. I had to write up one from scratch when I was with HiFi because everything was manually compiled. Biggest annoyance was managing the io of the service, but it was a fun learning experience


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:48:19
content:
  It seems like it's the inefficency of the rendering thread. Hopefully more modern versions of mono thread more effectively, i know the headless client is using a slightly more modern version and that apparently makes up a large portion of the difference.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:48:59
content:
  The dying being network dying, not CPU dying. Or rather everyone starts to queue uncontrollably and voice dies.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:49:22
content:
  I do know strict NAT was a rather large issue on the previous platform. Part of it was definately due to the assignment-clients just picking a port at random and punching through without a care as a means of improving user setup... which makes sense on the Windows version, but for the Linux ones... kind of unneeded. Even then, there was nothing allowing more organized handling of the ports on deployment other than a startup script every time. At least the headless-client has forcePort per world config


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:50:01
content:
  CPU wise - Headless still shits itself over 20 users (give or take, depending on single thread performance of the server CPU), each time someone joins, the whole server will lock up and then have to play catchup with everyone.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:51:44
content:
  Really? I've never managed to saturate my line. Like, I'll definately start queing, but I just assumed it was the complexity of the networking model.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:52:55
content:
  I know with the MetaMovie server when I was monitoring, we were hitting 60Mb/s constantly and spiking up to 100Mb occasionally with around 20 users.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:54:35
content:
  I've got gigabit symetrical for the most part. I do start queuing at 12 users on a self-hosted session. No problems on the headless we run up to 25 or so.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 20:56:33
content:
  Yeah, network wise 30+ users is fine on gig. You'll be hitting single thread limits of how Neos is designed though, but it won't always be immediately apparent. Neos WILL be locking up every time someone joins at that point, at least on the host itself before it catches up.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:04:54
content:
  Huh, that explains why my cinema doesn't seem to really impact from joins anywhere near as badly as normal sessions. Everywhere gets culled for the headless user technically as they aren't present in any zones.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:06:45
content:
  Just inject something with the avatar builder and once it is injected, the user can be culled from headless


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:06:58
content:
  Interesting, they *are* culled (at least as far as the headless is concerned) at spawn for my cinema and no-one is getting voided.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:10:44
content:
  But yeah, that explains why my cinema always felt like there was a lot less people there than there was. I'd often still be at full FPS with 20 people in other rooms.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:18:46
content:
  For anyone curious, that "eating sound" was an item left over from the MMC celebration items outside of one of the cinema screens for themed events...


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:33:54
content:
  Yeah and to your average potential Neos user anyone new to social VR or VR in general  Everything you guys are discussing is beyond them. Especially for people that just want to build something for people to use and appreciate.   I know several real world DJs who would be interested in throwing events in Neos but would want to be able to host upwards of at least 50 people without issue


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:34:39
content:
  Yup, most people don't know their actual usable upstream speed and thus how many people they could host, etc.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:35:06
content:
  Also no Neos world is hosting 50 people unless you want constant lockups and single digit framerates.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:38:34
content:
  VRCs cap is based on users with much lower end hardware though. I've been in 60+ user sessions before in VRC (without any avatars hidden) and I still get 40-60fps.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:42:03
content:
  What they recommend and what can be done are two different things.   I attend events in VRC upwards of 100 people with little to no issues


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:43:35
content:
  Yeah but people can still get in a few seconds before the cap starts booting people to a new instance


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:44:35
content:
  Sounds like a personal issue.  The point is Neos can't handle that kind of event.  Stop focusing on what VRC is or isn't capable of.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:56:02
content:
  wow 8 hours personal drama  yet no word to progress for $NCR  just sound loud children all day  700 message no new things very tiresome 🥱


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 21:58:56
content:
  If you're waiting for news, you're both in the wrong place and going to remain very disappointed for some time.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:05:56
content:
  works fine, but for the love of god, do not take a group photo with everyone and say "Cheese" all at the same time. The voice system hates it and results in awkward silence until it restarts


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:33:00
content:
  Have to set it to 50% resolution scale for it to run alright in the hub world with just me there

  And then it has this stupid bug that's always been a thing with Virtual Desktop on the quest 2 where if you tab to your desktop and then go back to the game, it starts lagging way worse.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:34:12
content:
  Neos meanwhile I can run at 150% resolution scale without lagging until i get into bigger worlds/sessions


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:35:56
content:
  Also I put $600 into NCR because I believe in neos, I don't even have $600 to my name or a job anymore right now

  But Im not angry with the devs or anything for this. I believe things take time. It sucks that I lost what, to me, was alot of money

  But
  Neos I believe in as a whole


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:37:47
content:
  But idk I've been very put off due to performance issues where it like.. Kinda makes me sick to use cuz it's just flipping back and forth between frames


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:37:54
content:
  I'd make sure you fix the default AA first as you're likely running out of memory bandwidth, as VRC is more GPU VRAM heavy than Neos due to the additional textures.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:42:15
content:
  having to restart the game every two minutes is annoying, i get annoyed whenever neos crashes once in a blue moon


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 22:47:50
content:
  with SSW
  but it only ever happens with vrchat, not neos, so whatever is going on there is not a VD issue seemingly


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 23:28:55
content:
  I've spent ages in public lately and in the past, no crashing for a long, long time. Though I do still have the particle limiter on.


type: message
date: 2022-05-19 23:33:08
content:
  Attempt 17 at exporting my content... https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/976990898527281152/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-05-20 01:59:59
content:
  that's.... very weird, and I say that as someone who owns an Index and a Quest, and has the biggest oppertunity for the system to mess up


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 01:04:02
content:
  well, try to keep in mind there was no reason you as a holder needed to be thrown under the bus like that. To try to kick Karel out the devs attacked their own token that ppl like us bought, pulling us into the crossfire for no reason. And yeah to some of us $600 is a significant amount, in a time when some can barely make ends meet, it can take months to save up that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 01:04:50
content:
  I think though within this community we're surrounded by people in the tech field who are, generally, pretty well off and don't feel or understand the financial mayhem they caused people's lives


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 01:05:13
content:
  $600 is a huge amount for me as well, but crypto isnt really always gonna go up, I put into it because I believed in neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 01:07:32
content:
  I bought in too because I genuinely liked the game. When I complained about the way things were attacked, I was treated and accused of just caring about profit or something, which was puzzling


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 07:01:53
content:
  Yeah.. It does suck that I lost the money but at the same time, I do really still wanna see neos succeed
  I'm more saddened by the development halt for now since neos is a platform I like investing time in, and creating stuff for.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 09:22:53
content:
  They want all the benefits of the the company and control over it, but none of the responsibilities that go along with that, which just boggles my mind.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 09:25:08
content:
  When I point that out, I just get vague arguments about their workplace environment and how they should have complete control of it, but none of that excuses their wreckless behavior or their stated goal to screw over their holders and see them as a burden


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 09:42:14
content:
  pretty obvious the line of thinking the team has, which is to get everyone on board with feeling okay to screw over those involved with the mint.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 09:45:59
content:
  I m not . I dont play neos, I m just investor but if you ask me Do you want money anyway from ncr I definitely say No because I want to see neos success and earn money. I dont want money like from Terra like gamble.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 09:52:38
content:
  Like if all you cared about was returns, NCR was always a bad play when the metaverse hype died out. If you were holding past that that you either gave a damn about the game or you were just a bad trader.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 09:53:39
content:
  That is right, but people who like me just wait for good news for reconciliation they shows their support that is what we do.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:22:06
content:
  and others. Afaik. But there's this attitude that the company and product should belong to them with no obligation to those who put their money where their mouth is and backed Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:22:45
content:
  in Geenz's words... "crypto attracted the wrong kinds of people"... since when? did it attract them 4 years ago?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:24:18
content:
  His statements show no deeper thought about the unfair circumstances he wrought onto everyone, just divisive langauge to serve one purpose: to make the community feel it is morally good to scam the NCR holders.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:26:11
content:
  They already have their community onboard with that. It's an environment where everyone wants to see the holders have harm done to them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:29:01
content:
  He also says those who dont agree with him solely want to protect their investment, further labeling all of us here as just either greedy or fearful, ignoring that many of us actually believed in the game. A large number of us.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:30:38
content:
  And his words about metaverse being more than ape jpegs is just trying to sweep away opinions that for a metaverse to really be free, it can't be a corporate fiefdom where one entity controlls all the commerce ala SecondLife. And should be ablw to flow freely between games and across boarders... something that the current token can succeed at.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:32:16
content:
  If you don't want to take care of the holders, whom the company has been selling to for over 4 years.... then leave the company.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:33:25
content:
  How can you argue that you should have both? Complete control of the company and also none of the pledges?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:43:23
edit_date: 2022-05-21 14:00:25
content:
  Digitally certifying in-world asset ownership is actually a stronger use case of NFTs - not to mention aligns with the long-term decentralized ethos that the whitepaper originally envisioned for Neos. Pushing back against NCR was always a power play against Karel and they leveraged the negative sentiment against crypto in the furry community as a catalyst to expedite that. A lot of the volunteers were heavily invested, profited from NCR, and likely contributed to the sudden price drop in December as a coordinated selloff. This was never about crypto. This is the end result of a long-term plan to remove Karel and take control of the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:50:44
content:
  We wouldn't even be in this deadlock situation at the moment if the developers didn't get the smooth brain idea to go on strike and demonize Karel. We'd have almost 7 months of updates and forward momentum, and would be half way through the 2022 roadmap.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:52:04
content:
  I know for a fact that the team members were selling off their holdings in December and also telling their friends to follow suit - some of who were heavily invested whales.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:53:38
edit_date: 2022-05-21 11:53:59
content:
  Ah, those pesky devs and their insistence to be treated with human decency :< putting us behind schedule with their refusal to continue to work for free for a for profit entity.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 11:58:26
content:
  Playing the poor perpetual victim is eye-rollingly cliché standard furry operating procedure. You have a boss, you take orders from your boss - and sometimes the things he orders aren't always going to align with what you want to do. This is how the real world works. This all comes down to the devs not wanting to take orders from Karel because he chose somebody else to design the website and Froox got butthurt over it. I was at the board of directors meeting watching the entire scenario play out in real time.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:04:17
content:
  1. They were apprehensive about Andrea joining as COO and saw her involvement as Karel's way of keeping them accountable for their work.
  2. They were upset about the website developer being a 3rd party that wasn't in their furry clique. 
  3. They were upset that Karel presented a roadmap of long-term 2022 goals. I clearly remember one of the team members at the board meeting saying they were "scared" about Karel's goals and then tried to shape this "Karel is a bad" person narrative to the public - because instead of being reasonable and working with him, they defaulted to canceling him in true furry twitter fashion.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:05:50
content:
  And that's when all of the insane claims like "Karel locked Froox in the house and forced him to code" tabloid level character assassination trash pieces started rolling out.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:08:47
edit_date: 2022-05-21 16:55:09
content:
  When almost every single person aboard the anti-Karel hate train has a cartoon animal avatar it's hard to argue that it's not a furry problem. I've been very involved in the fandom for years and know how these things work. I guarantee you we would not be in this situation if Karel was a furry and involved in the BLFC ERP circle.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:13:05
content:
  Karel isn't the one refusing to work. This is 100% the result of a coordinated walk-off because "Karel bad Froox good."


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:14:40
content:
  1. Existing proprietary codebase is forked and Karel forms a new team using the existing IP and remaining ICO funds.
  2. Both sides agree to open source the existing codebase and develop parallel open projects with Karel's continuing to support NCR.
  3. One side buys out the other side.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:20:05
content:
  You really don't get it. This situation is beyond repair and nothing will likely be done on the other end until Karel is out - which isn't happening.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:21:14
content:
  Oh that ship has already sailed. It's very much us vs them at this point as evidenced by the fact that the furries drove everybody out of Discord and we literally had to create a new chat server.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:24:33
content:
  To be fair, her narrative is more 'furries are a leftist social justice clique who are woke mobbing Karel'.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:26:13
content:
  They've certainly done no favors to the image of the Neos project. Even if Frooxius wins, the optics of Neos is irreparably damaged in the social VR spheres to the point where it will likely never gain traction outside of a very small niche - likely the existing userbase.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:32:56
content:
  And this is exactly the crux of the matter. It's a conflict of motivations. Solirax is a profit-driven business and Neos is the product. A lot of the existing users and developers that I talk with see Neos as this small sandbox tinkering platform without a business model - because capitalism bad. For a business to grow, the product needs to scale to the point of profitability and that's going to inevitably incite an in-world cultural shift that the early homesteaders don't want to see.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:33:16
content:
  I fail to see a single thing wrong with neos promoting grass roots efforts within its player base to take care of its direction and development. I find it absurd that a genuine commitment to community inclusion within the organization is being bandied about as a criticism.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:36:08
content:
  VRChat has 50,000+ concurrent users and they are still relying on series D venture capital to survive as a company - even with their VRC+ business model.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:40:08
content:
  this picture is utter bullshit and you're full of it for sharing it. To attribute the March 4 drop to Karel has long been disproven. Stop peddling utter lies. They may fly over on your discord but not here.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:41:31
edit_date: 2022-05-21 13:37:21
content:
  To say VRC has different goals from Neos is, in my opinion, a cope. It is to say that the failure to compete or grow is a choice when really its not.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:42:52
content:
  And I'm not as concerned about short term numbers as I am about being forwaed thinking, but I'd argue Neos is neither right now


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:42:58
edit_date: 2022-05-21 17:01:31
content:
  Pushing back against growth is a big reason why Neos has such a low user retention rate. I hear it constantly from users in-world that they don't want "normies" on the platform and the current userbase very much reflects that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:43:48
content:
  I'm sick of the word "normie" at this point, especially when I feel like its the most normie of people out there using the word.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:44:04
content:
  I personally enjoy talking to and working with anyone on the platform who's passionate about creation, that's why I use Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:46:13
content:
  I feel your honest by that, but I've observed that there's a degree of snobbishness about what types are "real" creators. And I likw creators flourishing, but non creators being alot of value. And I don't think large numbers of creators without enough peoole to enjoy those things is somehow magically valuable, you know?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:47:12
content:
  I understand but there's a passion and love just in the act of creation and having a place to talk to people who feel the same way is a rare thing I've cherished having


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:47:40
content:
  I get that, but it seems some of the immediate decisions contradict that future vision. And yes, I mean namely the standing against decentralization and wanting to go down a central secondlife path.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:48:00
content:
  I'm not very good at most of what you do in Neos but Ive been improving a lot with the help of so many people


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:48:46
content:
  Regardless of what happens from here, I'll still cherish all the positivity I've experienced on my end thusfar


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:48:47
content:
  I see, but I feel there's this slight unspoken vibe that that feeling needs to come at the exclusion of certain things (like non-creators of socialites) when I don't think that's the case


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:49:34
content:
  They roll out the red carpet for new users who are furries. Human avatar new users typically get ignored by the usual suspects staring at 15 Logix and inspector windows.  😂


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:50:16
content:
  I just.. don't understand this sentiment. It seems more about control than providing creators the tools to define their own spaces.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:51:31
content:
  Even the idea that new users should be greeted by the longtime natives as a part of the games design feels, imo, abit about control and ego that freedom. Just my thoughts currently.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:52:02
content:
  But also I haven't been seeking anything outside of creator spaces so I can't speak on that end fully


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:55:17
content:
  yeah I'm fine with that. I'm just wanting us to question if why we're pushing back against growth is for reasons other than to be knee jerk against those who are calling for it?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:56:35
edit_date: 2022-05-21 12:58:31
content:
  Because it feels like the idea that Neos should be small and unprofitable is either a cope, or its a counter sentiment to all of the voices here saying we need to grow or have a better experience.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:57:04
content:
  I am concerned about certain groups, constant harassment got me out of Public worlda on VRC, but we have our spaces in Neos so that's not really a problem


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:58:16
content:
  What is that? Like, is it something we're pulling out of our rears? And reading Geenz can someone tell me plainly what is the "vision" that Karel had that runs counter to this ethos?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:58:44
content:
  In an ideal world I would love more people to talk to, I adore speaking to people and hearing about what people are passionate about.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 12:58:50
content:
  Because people tell me that Karel had a cpnflicting vision for Neos and I'm supposed to just fill in the blanks with capitalism and crypto bad or whatever.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:00:37
content:
  We’re kinda in a limbo state right now. Will be good to get clarity after the legal stuff is sorted. The reality for Froox&team will kick in once that happens and they’ll have to decide if they want to continue working on Neos or leave. There are plenty of exceptional devs out there who would love to work on such a cool project that is well funded. Would be a shame to see Froox go but Neos can still thrive without him and his friends.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:03:14
content:
  I want Froox involved. I even want Geenz involved. But for some non-reasons that has to come at a great sacrifice of NCR holders (and spoiler, it doesn't actually, just the devs are too lazy to hire a crypto native or are too bitter to) and also at the expense of a long and ugly chsracter assassination campaign.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:04:32
content:
  So when it comes to that, Id rather he just walk away and be hurt himself then for him to benefit greatly on the sacrifice of so many other's wellbeing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:05:29
edit_date: 2022-05-21 13:06:31
content:
  Obviously it would be great to have Froox involved. All I’m saying is that it’s out of our control and even if Froox leaves, Neos is in a great position and will be able to hire many other great devs. It may actually be a better direction overall as development will get more streamlined


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:07:12
content:
  Actually until there’s legal clarity it is probably off the table. So will have to wait some months before that happens


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:09:11
content:
  Andrea's hiring is largely unrelated i imagine but I bet it was a slight factor (the hiring of someone new without their approval and before some of them got hired)


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:10:14
content:
  just seems like a rushed decision. I think Karel genuinely wants everyone to get back together and set their differences aside


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:11:33
content:
  Like I said Neos is in a limbo state right now. Once there’s legal clarity, you can almost certainly expect devs to be hired and onboarded. Whether that happens with or without Froox is another question, but I don’t think it matters either way.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:13:49
content:
  Neos has at least $4M in reserves which is a lot for a startup. They probably have at least $2M in fiat too that we can’t see (based on historic withdrawals from the mint address). Thats at least $6M in total, which could pay for a top tier dev + marketing team for several years


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:14:15
content:
  I can't comment on Karel's vision outside my own assumptions. He never really did any Q&A over it. But I have never really felt that he made the commitment to having Neos be a truly first-class space when it came to the stated whitepaper ambitions as a place to work in. He definitely wasn't eating his own dogfood.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:15:44
content:
  There's also the opportunity cost of losing 7 months of development when the rest of the industry is moving forward with building social VR.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:16:34
content:
  So they just say "his vision doesnt align with ours" and rely on their community to imply whatever thr fuck they want about it. But never EVER anything concrete.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:16:39
content:
  Bring in the CEO. Doesn't he communicate with investors? Stop clicking "like" on Tesla Twitter and communicate with investors


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:16:52
content:
  Reality will kick in when there’s legal clarity. Then they have to decide if they want to stick around or leave


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:17:16
edit_date: 2022-05-21 13:17:28
content:
  I can barely stay awake haha, but I just want to say I hope everything ends up okay, I've loved Neos so far and everyone I've met in it


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:17:48
edit_date: 2022-05-21 13:18:02
content:
  and we pretend we want a better metaverse, but we just let peers like Horizon grow. I think there's a failure there, even a moral one


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:18:49
content:
  I know what they published in the whitepaper and I know their public statements, but that hardly is the same as how I know the rest of the team's vision. There is a qualifiable difference between hearing someone argue their perspective in a dialog and reading essentially marketing copy.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:20:14
content:
  I guess you heard the guy talk and youre a good judge of character. So you must know bad apples and can see throigh the BS. Sure.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:24:45
edit_date: 2022-05-21 13:25:51
content:
  Orc, when in our engagement have I struck you as someone who does not make a genuine effort at due diligence before drawing a conclusion? I am slightly upset at this dig.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:28:40
content:
  If you're reasonable, then atleast see the situation for what it is: a character smear campaign where everyone else has incomplete knowledge and are being told what to think


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:33:12
edit_date: 2022-05-21 17:10:12
content:
  Just read @tizzers messages. Explains well what happened and the psychology. Unfortunately the ones attacking Karel are not self aware enough to see it for what it is and have deluded themselves into believing Karel (the co-founder of Neos btw) is evil


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 13:47:07
edit_date: 2022-05-21 17:11:31
content:
  The mentors are a clique in themselves and something of a meme outside of Neos staff, moderators and other mentors (hell, including some mentors). It's a group of people who spend a laughably tiny amount of time helping new users but want that badge of "I'm special" compared to non-mentors. Watching calls for mentors go continually unanswered all the time while they spent all their time in private worlds was laughable. Not to mention being who were outright malicious as far as user experience goes (e.g. JoshFluffy) being brought on as mentors without even going through normal channels.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:06:50
edit_date: 2022-05-21 14:11:20
content:
  Rhetoric sways doxa, it's the sea we exist in. Navigating hyperbole, and people taking that hyperbole at face value. I don't contribute malice, which I feel is implied by 'smear campaign', to anyone. It's a messy situation, and I dislike that it's become a bunch of personal attacks.

  I likewise dislike that i have to wade in a sea of disinformation and serious accusations. How the heck am I supposed to take claims of worker abuse by a CEO? There is a unanimous strike. I don't have the information required to verify the veracity of the claim, but it doesn't make sense to sweep that under the rug given the power relation.

  Yeah, people are jumping on band wagons for the wrong reasons. Yes, people are hyperbolically exaggerating events. This is political in the pure and simple, and I am not saying that as an attempt to belittle or distance myself from it. The ends here are about power, who has that power, how that power is used, structured and if it is being abused.

  In the end, I have major issues with how Neos was structured, not the least being the blatantly illegal and IMO immoral arrangement of a for profit company using volunteer labor for its core services. The landscape my specific position exists in is real, and I do think that people could show more caution in what they say. But what of it? What substantive objection does it raise to the criticism?

  I will join you in mourning the loss of civility in discourse, but I will not see that being used as a tactic to undermine one position or the other. The merits of a position are argued on their own. They may be complex, they may even intersect with decorum and civility. But it is useless and tiring to trudge out 'well, that side has a bunch of reactive elements'. Such is the state of the modern web. Everyone has hyper-reactive elements. It was like this five years ago when Angela Nagle wrote Kill all Normies and the dynamics still echo today.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:18:50
content:
  Its not so much that these things happen or the discourse is just utter garbage, but I'm questioning where we're going from here. And I don't neccessarily believe all this means there wasn't a responsibility or failure to rain in the discourse and make it more toxic from those who are holding all the chips.

  It's also not about one person, the CEO, but it's worse than that. its extended to people within the community (such as everyone here who has their convos openly recorded in hopes it can be used against them). And it's used to label some groups as morally OK to fuck over when they inevitably seek to wash their hands of us. Or to rail people into thinking that when all of these users get discarded that it's OK because they supported the bad guy.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:24:14
edit_date: 2022-05-21 17:12:32
content:
  The sentiment that the helpers and moderators are an exclusive club of friends is more widespread then you think. I know quite a few people who feel that way.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:31:12
content:
  You act like I don't keep an eye on who is where. I don't *personally* need to talk to them or interact with them at all.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:38:38
content:
  I typically consider your judgement above others, but I don't see how it can be just accepted when it didn't have to be this bad, and I don't see why the crypto holders needed to be pitted against those agaonst it, or other disingenuous statements that are usually false or misleading, right from the devs.

  And if they can behave that way and pit the community against each other in such a way, and in such short order build up an character smear campaign, why should I believe all the vague accusations of abuse when they are a part of that very campaign?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:42:42
content:
  Just because its unanimous really just tells me what we already know, that theyre Froox's friends and they'll stand by him. I've already had one dev tell me they have no problems with Karel, that the problem is with others... but they signed the statement all the same


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:45:43
content:
  I don't want to be in the position of arguing against the accusations, but if it needs to boil down to that justifying all pf this, then they have to be questioned hard.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 14:55:54
content:
  I'd suggest suspending judgment on those points if the specific power arrangement doesn't concern you. 

  I am specifically concerned about how Karel has acted in his role as CEO, including his public statements that will affect the hireability of employees he fired (a really blaringly obvious sign of a hostile work environment if not legally actionable in its own right). I will readily acknowledge that I am holding the corporate officers of the company to a higher standard. I am not thrilled with Froox either, I understand why he ended up breaking silence to give context for events leading up to the situation, but it has resulted in no small amount of existential anxiety on my part and the inevitable game of telephone.

  The situation was handled poorly as a mater of corporate governance, and it was caused by a failure of corporate governance to adequately establish bylaws to cover the internal conflict in direction and stakeholder representation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:05:30
content:
  My concerns have mostly been focused on the fate of the holders really (or as Geenz would put it, just being "concerned with my investment") because they're being needlessly thrown into the mix and I still can't discern why. And its decisions like that that show to me some underdeveloped ability to care for those outside your circle. And if I'm to make an assumption, it'd be that that was involved in this ugly split.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:07:49
content:
  And then their specifics always change when needed, from Its not about money, but then again it is about pay. And it's about Karel's vision being the wrong one, but who knows what that means. Apparently its in the whitepaper. Or its about bad business decisions? but also ignoring that he raised a large amount of capital or in Froox's own words, NCR saved Neos years ago. And now its about things thst happened -after- the split, or so it seems.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:09:20
content:
  and concerning future hirability, I question if Karel's said anything as bad as whats been leveraged against him nonstop by his former colleagues and community


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:12:08
content:
  In an unfair situation your concern seems to be the worker's rights and mine seems to be with the holders being treated fairly, which I dunnonif that says something about our background perspectives or not


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:16:01
edit_date: 2022-05-21 15:16:28
content:
  My honest opinion is that they never should have done an ICO. I used to think it was at least an innovative way to avoid VC influence, but it really didn't. It just ended up providing an underregulated venue to extract value out of people who felt like they were contributing to the future of the project. I don't fundamentally disagree with the perspective that current NCR holders got played, but I don't put that at Karel or the Team's feet other than the fact that I think NCR as the small capitalization deflationary currency that was also for some reason an investment in the future of the platform was doomed from conception.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:18:57
content:
  I do think they owe something to those who are left holding the bag. I just honestly don't know what form that obligation should or can take.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:19:02
content:
  Fine but why? Why do you think that, over just accepting that the implimentation would suffer in the event of both a cofounder splitup and also a big political anti-crypto wave?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:21:06
content:
  Its really easy and often done to just say things like doomed from conception when there's actual reasons. And usually within the community that's said to imply that to fix the problem is hopeless.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:26:04
content:
  Deflationary currency on it's own doesn't make much sense to me in a modern context. Even when I was looking at NCR strictly as the utility tken it seems to have been originally intended I figured it would eventually get replaced for the day to day transactions between players. I figured it would be a slow process though, and honestly if it wasn't deflationary I would have probably been very enthusiastically on board. I am a sucker for the idea of setting up "fuck you <The Man>, it stays up' distributed systems.

  But then it got muddled up in the idea of it being a speculative investment (probably because of the lack of immediate utility) and once that happened I didn't have much faith in it going anywhere i really wanted to be. But damn was that headrush disorienting on the way up.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:27:20
content:
  They could start by accepting it as a responsibility and not just default to pointing a finger at Karel. Like, if NCR was sold for years by thr company, they should honor ans build with it. If they don't want that responsibility, then why should they get the company and product?


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:34:17
content:
  I mean I just see it as what it is. Its a utility token, and all the other stuff you and I project on it is not really what it is. If being deflationary or rather having a limited supply just really, as I see it, lets ot exist alongside real world currencies in a trusted way.

  And since its not tied to anything, it was always going to be speculated on, and speculation is not bad. Like I ca. specilate on any currency.. and those who speculated on Neos early should be rewarded, like why not? The issue seems to be people's emotions. related to the big price swings


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:35:08
edit_date: 2022-05-21 15:35:28
content:
  I don't think the remuneration makes sense as a structural element of their strategy going forward, personally. If they determine it failed as a strategy then they should be able to pursue other strategies to find one that works,. A long term settlement or a buy back makes sense. Specific damages that were caused need to be addressed and the parties so damaged made whole. If this does not happen voluntarily, I will personally join a class to seek justice.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 15:52:33
content:
  I like doge. Unironically, dogecoin even with its unsophisticated fixed yearly supply allotment is funny and neat and subversive. I am still on the fence about pow, but I remember its context, and as a structural criticism of bitcoin it more than proved its point.

  The gold standard is a really bad basis for a currency for pretty much anyone who isn't a bank, and it exacerbates wealth stratification. I will never understand why people keep trying to recreate those dynamics now that we live in a world that is moving closer and closer to the automation of labor. Digital money is a real innovation, trustless networks are a real innovation, the gold standard is sliding backwards to the days of robber barons.

  What wasted potential :<


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 17:59:39
content:
  In a weird way, I do miss the older doge. Back then, it was less about the coin itself and more about almost creating a universal tipping service. It was never about profits and some interesting projects came from it, all of which also helped make learning about cryptocurrencies easier. Heck, it got me into Linux coding at the time when I recompiled cgminer to use the Raspberry Pi's GPU. It was funny, stupid, but also educational. I was tipped 500 DOGE when I got it working, and I tipped that back to someone else for a funny video.

  Sure, it was nice that the value skyrocketed, and in some sense, the generosity of the community was almost rewarded in a sense. It was a different time, perhaps even a better one.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 18:46:45
content:
  and there in lies one of the many concerns people had when the surge of crypto people came in: what was once just a "It's there, but it's a byproduct of an older time" became a "Oh, so now everything we do just has a price tag." Coupled with the public perception, it brought much concern.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 18:52:05
content:
  Previously, NCR had no actual function. So much so, there are no API calls for it for security reasons. It was just there back when many projects were throwing in some type of crypto relation like it was a game of buzzword adlib. It was intended to have purpose eventually, but when the systems were in place to make it useful, such as commerce functions.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 18:53:07
content:
  in a sense, NCR was a bit like Doge: it was there, may eventually have value, but overall it was just funny money. I still remember when people would just exchange it with each other freely along with the testing currency, KFC.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 18:56:05
content:
  Instead, your attitude is what has some concerned: pure profitability of a platform rather than longevity and functional form. It's easy to just make profits off of something, but harder to make it successful. I technically profited off of the failure of a previous crypto platform, both with employment benefits and left over coins. However, the platform, needless to say, was a failure, and I lost whatever time I invested in it as a result.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 19:00:35
content:
  ...that being said, despite the negative perception of the systems itself, I am looking forward to BTC Pizza Day. I already sold my BTC and I have no interest in the recovery process for what is held with the Mt Gox claim, but I still feel the spirit will work if I swap it for some spare Doge I still have.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 19:04:04
content:
  unfounded? While some parts are exagerated, the public perception outside of Neos itself requires not much to find out about. The constant waves from the 'competitor's userbase' constant protest because of its inclusions isn't unfounded.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 19:06:25
content:
  and I can't say the same with the other crypto system because it was a stablecoin based off of principles from LindeX. As for its proof of providence system... I would say it was an early NFT system, but it never got to the phase where you could transfer them from user to user in any form.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 19:23:07
content:
  I never did strip it of context. I'm looking at it in face value. If you are an investor, then viewing how the platform will perform will be a major factor. In this case, it isn't just the fact other platforms have denounced crypto involvement, but that the successful ones also have a user base who equally agree with those sentiments.

  Systems that then added services were then met with heavy backlash, and Neos was no exception when a "major competitor" made their claim against it (who, last I checked, wasn't a competitor, but whatever this group wants to say seems to go). Their userbase made their voices known, and people outside their userbase also agreed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 19:24:02
content:
  In short, the very thing being invested into limits the scope of users the platform will draw, and a good majority of those users are also the creators. Without them, you have no market. Without that, you have a terrible product in which was invested into.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 19:25:32
content:
  I've already been burned by that once with the thousands of hours I paid into another platform, and it didn't have the burden of the current negative crypto viewpoints at play. It didn't attract creators of any kind, despite heavy money drops from larger investors, and the system came crashing down, with even the open source project's code repo being pulled.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 22:58:56
content:
  That only really works when people know how any of it works. For a very long time, there was no documentation and no-one knew how a lot of stuff worked. It was... difficult.


type: message
date: 2022-05-21 23:09:05
content:
  My understanding is that Geenz and Prime believe they could continue the project at this point. However, it would be a major setback.


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 09:10:27
content:
  I've mentioned being in the furry fandom multiple times over in here before, which gives me a lot of insight as to how the groupthink in that culture works. At the end of the day I'm an investor and professional before I'm a furry and my opinions will continue to reflect that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 09:12:16
content:
  I've seen how quickly furries will turn on their own when people step out of line of the narrative dictated by the oppressed popufur of the week.


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 09:14:54
edit_date: 2022-05-22 09:49:43
content:
  The furry fandom also has a long history of fabricating lies about people who they don't like and they are now doing that to Karel.


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 11:50:48
content:
  I feel you, guess I'm willing to see where ot goes. I also like pow for its fairness, really sad that it has the flaw of scaling up way too fast

  tbh I don't really even think any currency should last forever, they imo serve transient purposes and this is a chance to see them evolve or new ones come according to whatever people are valuing at the time (seems thats fixed supply currently). IMO its cool where we all get to choose several of the internet's native currencies and if one is disfunctional I could see it being rotated out of. I'm not an economy nut though and don't know of examples to point to where a fixed money supply made commerce skewed. I'm sure there's some example out there. But I don't know if they really even apply to what we have now


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 12:01:11
content:
  and when I got it set up, which was this monster thing I made, his comment was "mm yeah id let that fuck me"


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 12:13:48
content:
  my real mentor experience was like, just wanting to get away to figure things out on my own, just felt like I was wasting someone's time


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 15:17:13
content:
  thats a hoot coming from someone in a discord whered youd be falling all over each other to believe anything that supports your destructive rumor mill.


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 20:42:34
content:
  Kind of funny that the buyback is only available to people with crypto wallets and not the people who actually use NEOS, who have their balances on their accounts.


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 22:10:21
content:
  Maybe whats unfortunate is there isn't an automates way to withdraw from ingame, but that would require the devs actually caring about the token enough to impliment something like that


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 22:10:55
content:
  but by their own words they don't care about it and just want the holders to fuck off in a ditch somewhere


type: message
date: 2022-05-22 23:50:20
content:
  I wonder what you think everyone's reaction would be if Karel hired someone with crypto experiwnce to code something like that into Neos. I wonder what you think the community's reaction would be.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 02:11:06
content:
  AFAIK Geenz was programming something for it but it kept going wrong so he fell back to doing it manually.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 02:20:30
content:
  I mean, most projects still in development with financial support usually don't automate it due to vulnerability concerns as things develop further.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:35:38
content:
  I don't know if its a passiveaggressive response or trying to make a statement but I feel the opinion that Karel should've just done it because "its his baby" or like why couldn't someone easily learn to code to do it are just bunk


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:37:15
content:
  Don't you see that being a potential security nightmare? I said maybe he should have hired a crypto native to do it


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:38:02
content:
  And I don't think he ever got the chance to, because as soon as he talked about hires things started ripping themselves apart.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:38:55
content:
  and why even automate it except for that people seem to be complaining that Karel had to do and check them by hand.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:40:09
content:
  and that became a stressing point because as far back as December there was concern of a coordinated sell off, and even back then there were complaints that it wasn't automated.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:41:10
content:
  How about doing rather a semi-automation, where transactions are analysed and if they are proper, presented for manual authorization


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:42:42
content:
  However the issue would be to have a proper history of past transactions (which is possible) and have them properly linked together (which is a tedious manual task, that makes it difficult to add automation at this time) so the program knows which transactions need processing


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:43:07
content:
  I guess thats fine, but I don't know if they don't already have something like that, and if NCR was ever to scale then it'd need to be addressed eventually


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:43:33
content:
  Ohh it does? I thought it was a completely manual task of checking something like etherscan and work with an excel sheet


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:45:03
content:
  I think semi-manual is fine for now but it's alot of work, and around the NCR craze I hear it backed the system up to requiring weeks of work or something.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:46:53
content:
  it did become an issue though, back in December, concerning disagreements and perceived threats of a selloff


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 11:59:33
content:
  I also resent the revision of history with the whole "its 100% Karel's thing" as if thats how this shit works or as of others weren't on board with it earlier.


type: message
date: 2022-05-23 12:01:03
edit_date: 2022-05-23 14:28:58
content:
  I understand that's the narrative you NEED to push, because it is neccessary when you want to purport that abandoning the holders is a reasonable thing to do, but it doesn't really add up


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:26:49
content:
  Some constructive thoughts now that things have cooled down after a lot of drama:

  - During the FUD / furry attack, smart money has been accumulating NCR at these super low prices
  - 10's of millions of NCR has been taken out of circulation from buybacks, resulting in a very scarce supply of NCR
  - Although the ETAs have been optimistic, Karel has followed through on his promises (continuing buybacks, new website, updated whitepaper) so it's clear the commitment to making NCR work is there
  - Staking is on the roadmap and will arrive soon

  IMO (not financial advice) NCR looks great right now. We could see a move up to $2 like we saw on the last bullrun. Will likely happen when there is legal clarity around the IP situation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:31:12
content:
  It's somewhat dependent on the IP situation, however taking into account all the factors I mentioned NCR looks pretty good here


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:39:16
edit_date: 2022-05-24 20:33:20
content:
  They've made this into an us vs them situation and I don't really see any realistic possibility of an amiable resolution at this point. I still believe Karel will need to take exclusive control of the company and the platform if we are to see forward momentum for NCR. The above screenshot is the mentality that we are dealing with from the other side, and they will stop at nothing to rid Neos of Karel and NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:42:15
content:
  Hmm yeah, I think they are overly pessimistic about NCR. The buybacks would've worked quite well but the timing was terrible - the team turned against NCR and sold off a lot  a lot. That, combined with the end of a bull run and a general market downturn made the buybacks ineffective.

  I estimate the "effective circulating supply" of NCR to be ~10M now after all the buybacks, meaning at current prices the MC is ~$3M which is tiny. I suspect buybacks will become much more effective.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:45:23
content:
  I also don't feel its fair that you generalize the community as usual Tizzy. Are their individuals looking to see NCR fall? Yes. Is that the mentality of the community overall? Personally I don't think so, as many people have issue with Karel's handling of the platform rather than NCR itself.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:49:32
edit_date: 2022-05-24 15:50:04
content:
  At this point I have to agree. If Karel does this, there may be an initial exodus of furries from the platform, but it may well be what's needed for Neos (and NCR) to move forward


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:50:26
edit_date: 2022-05-24 15:50:56
content:
  You can try and mental gymnastics your way around it all you want. At the end of the day Karel represents NCR and a lot of us bought in as an investment in Karel himself. You can't have one without the other, and by removing Karel you remove the credibility of NCR. The furries know this and they are sinking the value of the token with "I'm so oppressed" sob stories in the official announcements channel in an attempt to remove the CEO because "Karel bad."


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 15:54:33
content:
  Not really mental gymnastics as much as it is an opinion/perspective. No one denies that Karel represents NCR, and I wish that this had not been the case. I would have much preferred more decentralized control of the currency and I think my own investments would have been better off that way. But what you say about the announcements channel is wrong, no one made a sob story, and no one said Karel was bad. It was just disagreement.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:01:30
edit_date: 2022-05-24 16:01:58
content:
  From what I understand most of the assets are now owned by Solirax CoreDev s.r.o. and not the UK-based LTD that Frooxius owns 42.5% of. It looks like Froox doesn't even hold a stake in the CZ entity, meaning that Karel could have the final say in all of this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:20:30
content:
  Frooxius himself has stated that he does not own any part of CoreDev and that he had only invoiced it on 4 occasions.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:21:27
content:
  – Solirax LTD is inactive, majority of the VC funds were moved to Solirax CoreDev s.r.o.
  – I am not employed by Solirax CoreDev s.r.o. (and I do not own this company), but I did send total of 4 invoices in the past, each for 1848 USD and 80 hours of work, for development of small standalone demos for events


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:24:00
content:
  what I'm worried about is that I don't see any indication that that isn't the sentiment of the current developers either. It has been like this since way back in November iirc. 

  The implication is supposed to be "oh those are just the anti-crypto people. They don't reflect our opinions, we are neutral" but in reality it's the cohorts that seem to be voicing their opinions in lieu of them, and when arguments heat up the goldnames step in and defend them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:24:55
content:
  With methods like these NCR has been being attacked as far back as December or earlier by the people it is supposed to be helping, which made it impossible to actually use it to help them


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:27:55
content:
  This is a short term problem. Karel has plans to develop the market place and make Neos more decentralised


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:28:58
content:
  These things happened before the strike and led to the strike. That was kind of the issue, everyone is on board with a marketplace, but Karel didnt seem to be making moves to push decentralization


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:29:11
edit_date: 2022-05-24 16:29:58
content:
  A lot of the developers were actually pro-NCR up until the Karel Bad signal was given in early December, which is why I continue to believe they aren't anti-NCR so much as using NCR as a way to minimize Karel's involvement. A lot of furries are anti-crypto from an ideological standpoint and I think the developers were leveraging this for their own takeover agenda.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:31:24
edit_date: 2022-05-24 16:31:44
content:
  "Neos Decentralized" is a whole section of the whitepaper. Quite sure Karel wants to move Neos in this direction. Quite hard to do when the dev team are on strike


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:32:35
content:
  I understand this, but this situation started occuring when Karel made decisions with little consultation of team members, more specifically Froox. This puts more power over NCR in Karel's hands


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:33:58
content:
  Why shouldn't people be allowed to speculate on it? What you really mean is that "outsiders" started to buy it. People have been speculating on it for 4 years and only now its a problem. But what I really think is that you don't really know what speculation means and have bunk ideas about value and markets.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:34:57
content:
  Again this is propaganda spread by the anti-Karel crew. Froox insisted on focusing only on development of Neos itself and letting Karel handle the business decisions. In his own words: https://ryanschultz.com/2022/03/17/the-neosvr-investigation-part-1-when-karel-hulec-met-tomas-mariancik-the-early-days-of-neos/


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:35:33
content:
  its because thats the face of the group that is treating then u fairly. You guys could be anything and they'd come to conclusions, unfair or not, about you based on that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:37:49
content:
  Not propaganda and Im part of no crew. I know Karel was to handle  business decision, but obviously this changed and they started conflicting. Business side only means so much until project goals start changing


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:38:23
content:
  I was there during the hype. It was like 3 furries to wach cryptobro while furries were shouting them down in a slow chat


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:40:32
content:
  There is a dizzying amount of intellectually bunk ideas about how markets determine value in this chat


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:44:08
edit_date: 2022-05-24 16:56:52
content:
  What Neos needed to do was have Devs say "looks, NCR is a part of Neos. You don't have to use it, but just stop attacking each other. NCR is going to stay" But instead you wanted to do the fun thing and imply that "well maybe... if you all complain and fight hard enough... we might consider removing it!" which is exaclty what you and the devs did.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:47:38
content:
  NCR blew up at the hight of an anti-crypto wave that chronically online types would eventually get tired of as we all knew that... But instead of just respecting thr people who put their money into Neos FOR ANY REASON, they were craven and wanted to attack the outsiders


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:48:58
content:
  and the way you all try to apply moral weight to reasons people bought NCR like "you speculated" etc etc is just another form of this intellectually bunk garbage you all have convinced yourself of


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:49:38
edit_date: 2022-05-24 16:52:56
content:
  Reactant wasn't wrong about what he stated when he left. I've been in the furry ERP Discords servers. I've been to the private instances. I know how much the gold names, moderators, and mentors fraternize with the furry users - and the nepotism is real. Literally every anti-Karel user in this chat is some Rex or Avali or whatever furry avatar. I think using furries as a colloquialism to encapsulate the anti-Karel side is completely apropos. The vast majority of them are.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:49:50
content:
  You and no one there seems to respect a free market, and fine, just leave it the hell alone instead of trying to apply your college sophomore socialist theories to everything


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:51:24
content:
  kindly fuck off. we've been interacting in this chat well without you and you're coming in acting like you know the users and our motives.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:53:10
content:
  we've been talking for months, just go back to discord. I have the smallest of pittances of NCR that I've had for a year and my motive is to not let people get away with a blatant scam


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:53:40
content:
  Go back to the discord and cry there. Or log in Neos and get your bad dragon out and start coping that way.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 16:55:40
content:
  Oh no im a Rexouium, terrifying. 

  Reactant was wrong about a lot of things, called upon older non furry-users disrespectfully, lied about bans. But enough of him, we're over that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:00:01
content:
  More lies spread by people. One of the team themselves said the monthly cost for Neos infrastructure was close to $10k a month, which is what the Patreon is paying for, but no, let's just claim Karel is pocketing it instead and the platform is magically running off fairy dust instead. The irony would be that if enough people cancelled and moved to Froox's Patreon that they could no-longer cover costs, you just KNOW they would blame Karel, despite the fact it would be self-sabotage.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:00:21
content:
  You mean that ONE guy, literally months ago? Who isn't here anymore? https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/024/036/material.jpg


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:01:17
content:
  Somehow Patreon was supposed to pay for upkeep while also paying a full silicon valley salary to the 14 or so volunteer devs. Damn all that embezzled money


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:01:28
content:
  The sentiment you were replying to was brought up quite often on the official Discord, that they didn't want it to grow beyond the cosy little community that it is/was.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:04:04
content:
  The funding of the servers is no problem anymore with the ico money, I mean the ico made 60 million $ in eth right and it is so liquid like Karel claims it.
  So it can run for the next 500 years without patreon.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:04:07
edit_date: 2022-05-24 17:05:30
content:
  My god, $8000 for 80 hours of work. I've put over 2000 hours into making content for Neos at this point. Don't I feel like a rube for walking away with nothing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:04:54
edit_date: 2022-05-24 17:08:37
content:
  Unfortunately a lot of that money had to go on buybacks when the "crypto bad" side of the team did everything in their power to sabotage their own platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:06:03
content:
  He was trying to salvage it before it crashed into the ground, which unfortunately a lot of the team and community were trying hard to do, while watching with glee and rubbing their hands together as they enjoyed people's suffering.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:07:58
content:
  That's demonstrably not true and I wish I had recordings. There were literally groups of people trying their best to fuck with it. And hell, look at the NCR channel chats, there were so many people doing everything they could to make everyone paranoid about it and get it removed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:08:27
content:
  Yes, when a currency is tied to interest, not to a physical thing, that's what primarily affects the value.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:09:40
content:
  when they started attacking the company's own funders, it became a requirement. And the right thing to do.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:10:40
content:
  Sure, just cover your eyes and scream "I don't see anyhting!". There's absolutely ZERO chance that you were in the Neos Discord and didn't see this happening for WEEKS.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:10:58
content:
  The devs made an actual thread for the community to brainstorm ways to remove NCR, and the devs were openly listening to it and agreeing


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 17:12:01
edit_date: 2022-05-24 17:12:33
content:
  Like just ignore the Adroit person,they'll crawl back to the discord eventually. I dont feel like having this rehashed argument for the 500th time


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 19:39:24
content:
  She's not denying it though. It's the core team having done it and then be hypocritical about it which is the real crime


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 19:47:13
content:
  Those are not likely them then, this likely happened earlier. I'll have to find the images I have laying around somewhere, it showed some of the team extracting from in-game.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:08:42
content:
  The selloff and the price isn't really the concern. If some people made money then I'm glad for them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:10:08
edit_date: 2022-05-24 21:43:58
content:
  The only time it's interesting is with team members imo, who had NCR, sold it and then took public stances against it


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:13:50
content:
  That and the community tries to scrub away the inconvenient fact that NCR existed and was being sold to people sonce 2018...


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:15:14
content:
  And we're to pretend those NCR sales didn't help Neos stay afloat. We're supposed to just nod and go "oh ok" when they try to explain away that Froox himself said Neos would be dead years ago if not for NCR


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:15:49
edit_date: 2022-05-24 20:19:50
content:
  But oh no, it's "Karel's baby" and "we don't have responsibility to ncr holders, that's all Karel's thing."


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:17:44
content:
  I'd like to actually agree with them. True, its not their responsibility and if they don't want to work for a company that is involved with crypto or has a  responsibility to align its interests with the "wrong crowd" (Geenz's words) then... leave the startup?


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:22:12
edit_date: 2022-05-24 20:33:15
content:
  A lot of furries get involved with the fandom because they don’t socially fit in anywhere else and are looking for a sense of belonging. Some of them have aspergers syndrome or autism, or are just awkward / nerdy and have been bullied. The fandom is very cult-like in that it draws people in and offers them that sense of belonging, and then punishes those who don’t fall in line with the groupthink by threatening to banish them from participating. 

  I joined because my hobby outside of VR is cosplay and sewing - and for me furry has always been an extension of that more than a social thing. In real life I have my own social circles that I've developed working in the film and interactive industry for over 20 years and have no problem stepping back and removing myself from the narratives painted by the furries. At the end of the day I’m an investor and a business woman before I’m a furry and I feel no pressure to fall in line with them.

  I’m also old and have been around the fandom since the mid to late 90s with a very first hand perspective on how the group dynamic works. What’s happening with Neos right now is very typical of furry projects - which I think is important for the investors to understand. As much as the furries try and push back at the generalizations, it’s very much a factor and it’s not the first time I’ve seen something like this happen.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:26:36
edit_date: 2022-05-24 20:27:28
content:
  I have nothing against furries or people who identify as funny animals for fun or who ERP or whatever, but it's just that in recent years it feels like they've become one of the most combative groups online now, always trying to post the tired old "L+ratio" or whatever zingers, always trying to witchhunt, always seemingly in a mood for drama or to have a go at anyone behind the veil of being a fluffy animal or something


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:31:32
edit_date: 2022-05-24 20:32:18
content:
  Well I look at issues and it seems like most comment sections are fulled with usually an army of  furries with marxist tags on their bio and an axe to grind. Its not inherently furry its just I guess its just signs of an always-online youth who is addicted to escapism and whos brains are addled in the pasttime of group complaining


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:33:41
edit_date: 2022-05-24 22:26:53
content:
  I think at the end of the day that's what a lot of this comes down to. It's the clashing of Socialism vs Crypto Capitalism.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:36:35
content:
  I suppose so, thats succinct enough.. I don't particularly care what's someone flavor of politics are and I don't see myself as someone who couldn't get along with either group, it's just like.. It keeps being that having beliefs arent enough, we must be always forcing ours onto everyone else


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:37:46
content:
  And other intellectually bunk takes that really boil down to trying to force everyone into the same belief pattern


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:38:56
content:
  worst yet I see alot of the anti NCR discourse devolving into simping for fiat currencies and arguing Neos shouldn't have decentralized princibles but should be a corporate fiefdom by design


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:40:22
edit_date: 2022-05-24 20:42:35
content:
  fine, but no one is required to use NCR... so what was the issue? It was the NEED of chronically online youths to push their values onto others


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:42:06
content:
  I don't fault someone for believing in socialism or whatever, I really don't, but I do feel that this debacle was exasperated by ideologicsl clashes


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 20:46:31
content:
  Frooxius basically built a cult of personality around himself over the past several years who in turned gassed him up into believing he was being oppressed by Karel and are now pushing him to take over the platform because they see him as the rightful fuzzy king. Unfortunately for them that’s not how things work outside of the furry reality distortion field. It might work for a con leadership team or a Second Life group, but you can’t cancel somebody out of 50% legal ownership.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 21:40:06
content:
  Yeah, while I don't know who truly profited on ncr (except for myself), those who argued that it should never have existed are arguing in bad faith.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 21:44:36
content:
  I guess we'll all see what happens when the alleged legal proceedings finish. I'm perfectly fine being a spectator sitting in the middle of all this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 21:46:52
content:
  Tizzy, please note that advocating antisemitic conspiracy theories is against the neos usage guidelines.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 22:09:16
content:
  My point being that the root of disagreements like we are currently in can a lot of times be traced back to a clashing of ideologies, and it’s clear that the left-leaning ideology of the furry fandom is clashing with the capitalist right-leaning ideology of the cryptosphere.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 22:15:18
edit_date: 2022-05-24 22:20:37
content:
  Several months ago I made a post on Twitter suggesting different ways that fursuit makers can optimize their workflow and increase their production volume using off-the-shelf technology. The response I received was over 1000 people unfollowing me and a backlash of hate from the fandom. Furries are violently anti-capitalist and Karel/NCR represents capitalizing on a space they see as their socialist utopian furry treehouse. That’s why we are in this situation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 22:21:40
content:
  Yeah the basis for my argument was that multiple pricepoints can exist in the market and not everything has to be a $10,000 handmade bespoke product. As you said it's all slightly off-topic, but sort of paints a picture of the furry ethos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 23:43:51
edit_date: 2022-05-24 23:48:17
content:
  The discord/furries have a complete inability to acknowledge any criticism or wrongdoing by Froox and the dev team. They would rather re-write history, making any discussion with them pointless at this point. Their only purpose in being here is to "fact check" conversation and push this alternate reality they have convinced themselves of. 

  E.g., denying that Froox and dev team were involved with promoting NCR for years as evidenced by the whitepaper and other public statements including in discord and reddit; insisting that the discord was "fair" and welcoming of all groups when it was anything but, ignoring the fact that the entire crypto community was driven to its own telegram channel; accusing the crypto community of "speculation" into facts while at the same time they openly accused Karel of enslaving Froox and locking him in the house with ZERO evidence; saying that there was no coordinated sell-off when on-chain transactions of old wallets show consistent selling by insiders around time of the work strike and after Karel did his staking poll; acting as if the third-party API integration was a legitimate and fair offer to Karel and NCR holders instead of the death blow that it actually would be; stating that they have nothing against NCR holders when multiple insiders and key community members have had chats exposed basically wishing NCR goes to zero; morally justifying people losing thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars because it was "speculation" and their own fault, ignoring the fact that the price drop itself was caused by the work strike, insiders selling, and ongoing dispute, all while many insiders made money; the team saying it's "not about money" but constantly bringing up the fact that Karel underpaid Froox and devs, also while ignoring that Neos was a startup and there were barely any funds until the boom late last year, and that Karel said he was willing to pay outstanding invoices (which was refused), renegotiate contracts, and even setup a US entity for Froox to hire his own dev team....


type: message
date: 2022-05-24 23:46:05
content:
  then people like Cyro insult us even further by trying to say we are overusing or don't understand the term "gaslighting"


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:16:18
edit_date: 2022-05-25 00:21:00
content:
  well said, and as far back as November they stoked divisive flames in the community. Instead of telling people to accept that NCR exists and they don't have to use it (just use the damn Steam client), they communicated to the community that if they fought and complained loud and hard enough that they might consider removing NCR, going as far as to have multiple threads about how to remove NCR from the game (almost as of they were out of ideas on how to handle the situation)


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:17:34
content:
  Then after all of that their attitude is to blame crypto natives as the wrong crowd and their bullshit to be their fault.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:18:52
content:
  "we dont want to deal with them anymore" and "wrong crowd" being their exact words, igboring that they made this pit fight environment


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:19:36
content:
  Opening up and encouraging discussion of killing NCR is insane in the context that they had been selling it to people for FOUR YEARS


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:20:15
content:
  This isnt kindergarten, you can't just all point to Karel and hope everyone believes he's the problem child


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:22:04
edit_date: 2022-05-25 00:22:39
content:
  I was there lurking at how it was back in November/December.. for every 1 confused crypto jackoff there was 3 furry avatars trying to slam on him


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:27:16
content:
  again... how crypto was viewed even 5 years ago is vastly different from now. Whereas before it was actually viewed as a potential saver and upgrade to online transactions eventually got to where it is now... where most gaming centric groups usually don't view it as a good thing anymore due to mining using a large amount of power (the card shortages withstanding as its own thing, but honestly, most cards sold for mining were better than the graphical counterparts anyway so... mute point).


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:28:02
content:
  So... yeah, for the past 4 years, it wasn't really an issue and even within the past amount of time, it wasn't quite as bad because it wasn't given the spotlight treatment...


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:30:49
content:
  Basically youre saying the Neos masses are reactionary drones who follow outrage trends and we should only do things that twitter mobs would approve of


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:31:02
content:
  the issue now is that because it is getting the spotlight treatment is where massive changes are occurring. Removal from Steam, heavy negativity responses from potential users due to the crypto relations, and general distrust usually are the suspects when it comes to that subject by itself.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:31:57
content:
  it isn't just the twitter culture. It's kind of the general culture of people who do VR and gaming... which is the general target audience for platforms like VRChat and the like, who is often compared to everyone else including Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:33:35
content:
  again, before it all skyrocktetted, it wasn't an issue because... well, it was kind of not worth anything and could be ignored. Then it's value went up, attention went up, and the potential people who were even considering joining Neos gave up and voiced their concerns, drawing more negative attention. While you could say it also drew in a different audience, this hasn't really altered the concurrency numbers


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:34:45
content:
  In fact, the only times Neos's concurrency numbers did rise was when VRChat had connection issues... so people tried other platforms. Even then, not even a solid percentage of active users even tried Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:35:35
content:
  And crypto natives are investing heavily in virtual spaces right now, so it seems kind of myopic to imply that the people who matter are all anti-crypto or whatever the point is


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:37:16
content:
  Everythig you say just sounds like this shamefully craven viewpoint that Neos needs to bend over for whatever "current trend" is


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:37:16
content:
  but the question is... are those people in Neos right now? People who are here, in the telegram, all 344 members... how many have actually logged in or even aspired to do so? Same goes with patreon or even discord members. I get world times are different, but concurrency numbers shouldn't be this low with all things considerred.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:38:05
content:
  most projects during the 5-6 years ago... pretty much added crypto to their systems, even if it didn't make sense for it


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:39:32
edit_date: 2022-05-25 00:39:41
content:
  Kulza you rarely have a point worth responding to, but I'll respond to tell you that we are talking and I'm sorry you don't like that?


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:40:07
content:
  well, Orc did raise an interesting point regarding why a component to a system wasn't problematic until now, and it did deserve a bit of a look into. It can help explain things and potentially help the platform by understanding why things have occurred as they have.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:41:15
content:
  and the TLDR of it is... because it wasn't the primary focus. But now that it is being pushed as such, it's causing problems. That's how something for so long can be not an issue but change suddenly in recent times


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:42:41
content:
  that isn't to dismiss the other issues Neos has... which has been preached enough times in any chat channel you look at...


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:44:36
content:
  Youre explaining what we kind of already know. NCR was being sold for years, and the moment there was an uncomfortable season relating to it, or it actually gained value, it became a problem... Which says to me that either the devs never intended NCR to ever have any value (or they arrogantly thought they could predict when and how much) or that they are just spineless and will always try to chase after twitter-borne trends


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:46:45
content:
  Maybe there's reason to think about it, but after 4 years of collecting funds for something, to try to dump that responsibility at the first sign of inconvenience shows no commitment to the company and those who put their financial faith in it and I question why they should have the right to kick out their cofounder


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:48:11
content:
  and also you ignore the people within your own community that use NCR or crypto. People who have built NFT art galleries, or Japanese users who made KFC casinos or KFC mining minigames that we may have one day hopes would be usable with NCR?


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:49:09
content:
  Like, no instead the reactionary angry crowd needs to be stoked... as of they'll never get over this stuff. as if they can't already FULLY ignore it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:51:22
content:
  I can't speak on the dev team's behalf, but at least back when I was part of a project that was blockchain based, it wasn't that big of a deal back then. If anything, it was kind of exciting. After the project shutdown, that's when the rather unusual rise of anti-crypto started... though that was also when the pandemic started as well so... take it as you will.

  However, when the CEO was then hired into another position, people did criticize previous involvement with the project and its crypto backbone. Even when it didn't fully work out, wasn't even active, and even when they had more or less denounced the currency aspects, people were still quick to point that out.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:52:20
content:
  Also, monopoly money is more fun to play with than actual money. Sure, there are KFC casinos, but the value of KFC is... nothing. It's just testing funny money. It's name and coin insignia should be evidence enough of that


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:56:14
content:
  Hell, I wanted the previous platform I worked with to succeed, even after my contract expired. I dragged creators I had contacts with to try and work with the systems, and other systems aside, it didn't quite work out. I hadn't even heard of Neos at the time, despite it existing in parallel. I'm not blaming the crypto side of it, because honestly it wasn't the full issue, and was very early. We now have SuperBowl commercials all about buying and selling crypto with so much as a free gmail account, but back then with the wallet files and all that... people were just not ready for it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:57:12
content:
  again, if I had a dollar for every time someone flushed their wallet file down the virtual toilet due to not doing proper backup steps... Well, I'd have easily doubled my earnings from there


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 00:58:56
content:
  I'm mostly curious on the aging aspect of the tokens... like, if someone buys some NCR now, then does a buyback 3 months from now... is the age based the buyback or the original purchase?


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:01:50
content:
  mostly that. I mean, within that timeframe, it'd be short, but I guess it's a case of acquired date and whoever pays the taxes. I dunno, the transfer thing hurts my head with how it was explained by my expert


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:02:19
content:
  thankfully, all mine were long term, and I did my acquiring at the same time so... I only had to worry about one date


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:03:57
content:
  AFAIK Each transaction has a date, and you have to keep track of the specific dates for the amount in each transaction. When you've held 100 examplecoins for a year, then you can sell those 100 examplecoins at the long term investment tax rate.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:04:08
content:
  aren't they just all ETH smart contracts? So would it just be based on whoever set it up, be it a legal entity or an individual?


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:07:59
content:
  uhuh... never claimed to be an expert of crypto systems. I just worked with a platform that used it but I'm more versed with traditional blockchains. ETH is... weird, so having something setup that does exactly that... not too hard of a guess


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:15:16
content:
  To be fair, the technical aspects of blockchains have very little to do with the lingo of finance.  If I didn't have that weird H&R contract in my past I'd likely not get half of the current cryptosphere regardless of my early participation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:18:57
content:
  *shrug* true, though i tend to be a bit more forgiving of vocabulary imitation. it's a pretty common communication strategy in the groups I'm used to dealing with.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:33:54
content:
  To give NCR some credit... it is closed loop, as in you can buy NCR with ETH and turn NCR back into ETH. The money you buy it with also is its own output. HFC didn't work that way, and it was a major critique during its operation: you could only buy HFC with ETH, but cashed out in USD (not USDC). This means to buy HFC, you had to become versed with crypto currencies... but to cash out, you just needed PayPal.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:36:11
content:
  So people who were VERY big on crypto (and it was... I want to say, maybe 50% of the concurrent userbase at the time) couldn't really keep their money within the chain in someway because cashing out of the platform was in USD... which defeats the point. Likewise, people who wanted to buy HFC couldn't because they weren't versed enough with how cryptocurrencies worked back then (again, RIP all the countless wallet files lost when reinstalling the client).


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:38:01
content:
  this was also coupled with limited withdraws, which became a problem when contests were held with thousands of USD in HFC was involved, since the top prize earnings exceeded the monthly limit.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 01:40:08
content:
  I don't recall there being a limit on buying HFC... but that did always bug me, even to this day: considering all the ETH they DID buy in HFC exchanges... I know not everyone cashed out (hell, I know prize winners who didn't cash out their prizes, so RIP prize money). This was all back in 2017-2019, when the platform was in operation... the earliest ETH purchases would, I assume, still be in the company's possession... which nowadays... has to be worth a seriously high amount.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 11:39:57
content:
  Thanks for the heads up. 🙂 I don't think it's a bot/spam, it's someone who has just changed their username recently I believe:)


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 12:08:18
content:
  Pretty sure he grounds to fork it and work with a clone.

  He owns the same portion of the company as Froox.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 12:22:48
edit_date: 2022-05-25 12:25:28
content:
  I'm glad I caught you by the way. I noticed Karel has gone largely off the radar, I've been trying to get in contact with him and I've waited a few weeks now. I was wondering if you could please see if he could respond to me at some point in the near future, I would like to collaborate on bringing NCR back to life and go through some strategies to keep it relevant if certain scenarios were to play out, improving its use cases and functionality within Neos.

  Also would very much like the opportunity to get some of my own solutions to other areas that could improve the user experience for people who are new to the platform implemented natively so that we can start seeing more user retention, and see what I can do about improving the way in which people see the platform.

  I currently work part time with a VR hardware startup, the boss is very passionate about Neos as an outlet for his creativity and so am I, so I think there is a lot we could achieve with a bit of cooperation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 12:30:21
edit_date: 2022-05-25 14:47:53
content:
  The thing that will defibrillate the value of the token will be a concrete resolution that creates forward momentum for Neos with both Karel and NCR included.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 16:15:55
content:
  Unfortunately this is what happens when startups devolve into a coder-driven technocracy with no regard for the other crucial positions that hold them accountable and make the entity function as a viable company. Without Karel Neos would not exist - something that Frooxius himself has stated multiple times in the past. I watched Karel and Andrea present the roadmap and start to lay the foundation for the future of Neos, and the furries across the table pushed back with no respect for his position as CEO.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 16:53:11
content:
  Andrea Do you want to do something about Max ? He literally just shills some random crypto in here almost every day and that's it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 19:52:23
edit_date: 2022-05-25 20:03:41
content:
  Never saw those funds for a second? I'd like him to prove that within 4 years of selling NCR to users that none of that money went to upkeeping the network


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 19:56:09
content:
  Also this dimwit likes to post about Karel as if he knows what his job was within Neos and downplay the work he sunk into it by trying to get the other dullards to believe that he's just a bean-counter and nothing more.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 19:58:32
content:
  When anyone who isn't being even slightly disingenuous has to admit that Karel as much as any of them had his sleeves rolled up working on managing Neos as well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:10:59
content:
  Millions of funds raised in 2021 huh? You make a fool of yourself, as it wasn't until the tail end of 2021 that NCR exploded in value and they actually had money


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:12:57
content:
  Millions in raised funds? Prior to the end of 2021? Literally none. This all happened within the space of literally several months.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:15:51
content:
  We MUST be at the height of the tech bubble because people are expecting fat Silicon Valley salaries for being a part of a start-up.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:16:14
content:
  The funny thing is that they would be plenty well taken care of for their past work if they didn't, you know ATTACK THEIR OWN FUNDERS


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:16:27
content:
  For a "work whenever you like" job, moderating a mostly self moderating platform. Nearly 2K a month for being a part time internet janitor and you call that BAD money?!


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:16:59
content:
  requesting an obvious spammer for an obviously ridiciolous coin... to basically stop spamming... is not a threat


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:18:42
content:
  our conversation is about the platform literally in the title of the group... about the currency... in the title... of the group...


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:19:33
content:
  The news is NCR is going to zero. Sell now everything while you still can and put it into pregnanteloncoin


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:19:36
content:
  the news is you wait 30 seconds for someone to type out a response. I mean, I can CTRL+C/V spam too, but I'm not an idiot


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:20:59
content:
  there aren't any immediate updates that have been sent out from official channels other than the pinned messages within this channel and any announcements formed within another discussion channel in Discord. Any other updates would be from the community or individuals who are holding the system's currency, be it in the system itself or outside via a wallet, or from general users who partake on the platform itself.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:22:58
content:
  you are copying and pasting a link for a coin called ELONCAT, within a telegram group for a VR platform that still has token-based currency system called NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:26:09
content:
  We may as well just forget about the channel until one of the moderators comes back, unfortunately I think that's literally just Andrea at this point.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:26:37
content:
  Andrea For the love of god, please have someone else moderate here too, unless you're going to be significantly more active.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:27:39
content:
  our conversation was about the platform and the functionality within it, in addition to addressing concerns and discussions regarding its parts or development. In a telegram group all about it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:28:20
content:
  the only irrelevant discussion is the links to a scam token for ELONCAT, before it gets old and dies off so we can start seeing ELONDOG, ELONSNAKE, and ELONELEPHANT to appear.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:31:01
content:
  I dont' care. This is the Neos telegram group. We only really discuss NCR and Neos related topics. Elon Musk, as far as I'm aware, hasn't tried Neos (would be neat if that were true), and I'm fairly confident that the ability to upload a coin name based on a famous individual wouldn't exactly scream out "trustworthy" in this given day and age, and especially here, where it is a safe assumption to consider that people at least have some basic knowledge of cryptocurrencies, and common sense to see when something isn't right.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:37:13
content:
  Neither. I'm not exactly for NCR, but I'm not against it strictly due to its cryptocurrency nature. The negative press around crypto, and thus causing relations to Neos, would be my primary argument and concern with the NCR, as systems and partnerships with exchanges could remedy complaints regarding trading and selling of NCR within Neos itself.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 20:38:55
content:
  That, and given past experiences, I cannot exactly go 100% against the system without basically calling the kettle black, given my past contracted employment


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 21:25:26
content:
  Part time, work at home, do your own hours moderation. $2k p/m wage. That's not crappy by any standards, anywhere, ever.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 22:46:55
content:
  if you are somehow implying Geenz and Froox are the same person... I'm not sure how you figure that...


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 22:48:40
content:
  except... Froox's patreon isn't directly related to Neos operations or development specific to its core systems. Can't help you beyond that


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 22:50:32
content:
  so... Geenz making a new rendering system and Froox doing... whatever they want to do... aren't exactly related to each other, unless Froox's next project funded from the Patreon is using Geenz's graphical engine. Even then, just because Geenz started a Patreon doesn't suddenly mean the reasoning behind why Froox started one. If that were the case, most of the other developers would have spun up their own side systems in a similar manor


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 22:55:09
content:
  I wouldn't be calling a kettle black based on past topics, but what one person does with their Patreon with its listed understanding that it isn't in direct relation to Neos development, that isn't really a scam. Scamming for money would be my Patreon tier in NeosVR, where  the request of "priority support" for headless operation was very delayed, in addition to other services part of that tier not really working.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 22:56:16
edit_date: 2022-05-25 22:58:00
content:
  oh, and with the LNL relays back then also acting up, bandwidth was definitely not prioritized... unless it's upgrading from a 28k modem to 56k as a form of 'priority'


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 23:45:19
content:
  So? What people do with their money is their problem, not yours. As far as I'm aware, if someone honestly wants to pay for that, then fine. Weirder things have been funded and with weaker reasons.


type: message
date: 2022-05-25 23:45:55
content:
  Not to mention, people will just vote with their wallets. If it does indeed turn out that the campaign isn't working out, people will leave. Pretty simple


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:24:29
content:
  if the previous videos are to be used as how the experience will be... I might as well reactivate my Second Life account and then press Shift F1 to dance.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:24:34
content:
  I thought that looked pretty good for Decentraland before I watched the video and realised it was a pre-render.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:25:07
content:
  You do understand the concept of what material is relevant to what location right? I wouldn't go to an F1 website and start posting about football. This is common sense, or at least should be.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:28:58
content:
  Decentraland is a wasteland filled with people buying up digital real estate with no one to rent/sell it too


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:31:59
content:
  Anyone who thinks digital real estate is a good idea has no idea how the current functioning metaverse works.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:31:59
content:
  isnt decentralland that place with that fucking weird coin that for some reason has a mouth or is there so many crypto metaverses that im mixing them up


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:33:18
content:
  Decentraland is a second life clone using Blockchain that doesn't understand it's about a decade late to that party


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:35:56
edit_date: 2022-05-26 00:36:45
content:
  so? when Philip attempted to make lightning strike twice with High Fidelity, it was funded by pretty much everyone including Linden Lab itself. That project was shutdown in 2020. Before then, it received more funding than Neos and VRChat combined, and you bet the investors aren't too happy.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:36:33
content:
  to be fair. taking risk is inherit in investing. maybe it will be good for them maybe not. Im not a investor so i cant give a informed opinion


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:37:41
content:
  To be fair, there is no such thing as digital scarcity.  When second life ran out of land guess what they did?   They made more.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:39:25
content:
  ...I worked for High Fidelity under contract; an open source, blockchain based metaverse... and a few furries worked for them. Get your facts straight.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 00:41:35
content:
  not gonna lie. when i do come in here i wonder if there are mods. specifically cause ive seen shit about Qanon Cabal and just people throwing insults


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 04:57:28
content:
  I honestly hope to see us move away from that ik library. it's apparently a major factor in the current inability to release the engine as open source.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 05:28:12
content:
  Mmm, no, I still hope to see us move away from the ik library :P There are other IK libraries that don't have fucky licensing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 05:54:42
content:
  regarding VRC's 11 point tracking... I like how it took a large canny response for people asking for chest tracking... like, why wasn't it even on the radar by default?


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 05:56:19
content:
  The beta claimed that they didn't want to add it. It was changed after the canny post got a large amount of traction, and the developers even asked why they should add it


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 05:56:58
content:
  I haven't been on VRC in awhile, but I did try out the new FBT beta package to see how it was, and that's why I knew about the canny post: because my usual setup is the full 11 point tracking


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 05:58:50
content:
  not really? They wanted to claim a massive improvement to the FBT system, but then fail to add what... oh, I don't know, virtually everyone else had? VRC was goign to go out with 10 point tracking and start their victory party... 100% unaware that all other platforms support 11 point.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 06:01:20
content:
  I focus wherever I damn well please. I mean, if that's the case, then everyone from SL must be wondering why I haven't signed in ages despite the database migration going on for my old group.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 12:14:33
content:
  I'm sure he can give us a little taste. Sounds like he has a good amount of proof. What would he legally be allowed to show that would not jeopardize a Cort case?


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 14:26:33
content:
  buying that much in one go is a strong move. perhaps this individual has high conviction on ncr going up. we'll find out soon i guess


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 14:47:50
content:
  Ncr is a great project the future of metaverse but i need someone here to explain me the statement whats happen ?


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 14:56:54
content:
  did i understand that correctly the ceo is currently negotiating a termination agreement with tomasz to kick him out?


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 15:24:00
content:
  It sounded  more like Karel is a Brickwall when talking to from the devs, barely responding to anything.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 17:04:58
content:
  Because the amount of people that want 11 point tracking is *infinitesimal* when viewing the whole userbase. It's "cool" for those that can use it, but those people are an incredibly tiny group, ergo it wasn't prioritised.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 17:32:17
content:
  ...that and also some Quest users do actually buy the basestations to enable trackers with the Quest for a fully wireless VR experience


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 18:04:33
content:
  Even my hardcore VR full-body friends had, at best, standard full body. No-one thought the cost of 11pt (and the hassle) was worth it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 18:11:49
content:
  I mean, he's not wrong. Literally everyone I know has gone back to VRC now. CVR lost their lead and Neos feels like a dead man walking, VRC on the other hand is making solid progress and is already a pretty strong platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 18:36:39
content:
  not to mention, back when people were only just getting their hands on the trackers, some people did ask for additional tracker support. The argument that some people had was that no one would ever bother investing more than $300 in additional hardware for such things, despite the fact that some people still use hacked together Kinects and the more recent rise of self-made full-body tracking solutions like SlimeVR


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 18:37:37
content:
  Hell, even Tundra ended up making CHEAPER trackers because of market demand, and they keep selling out! They even addressed the issue of having more than 3 trackers requiring more USB ports


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 18:38:06
content:
  and even more so that HTC is charging MORE for their trackers because the demand for them is so high, they absolutely could increase the cost


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 18:39:36
content:
  heck, let's not forget HTC STILL sells their Deluxe Audio Strap, despite discontinuing the Vive, because they know that people are making adapters for the Quest headsets. Not on point with trackers, but moreso with demand for additional hardware


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:22:24
content:
  The thing is, you don't sell a platform on just basic functions. The dancing crowd in VR have always been wanting better tracking support, and VRC wasn't delivering... but the modding side were. Most popular videos for the platform are showing off things that push the systems to the limit, and you aren't doing that with just standard 3 trackers.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:23:49
content:
  I'll admit that after the traditional 3, only elbows really adds the extra detail that is missing. Knee tracking is great if you are a dancer, but for casual use, it's not that special since leg IK is pretty good at this point. Chest tracking is more or less an additional corrector for the hips, and if you need videos on hip trackers going wild, you don't need to look too hard


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:24:54
content:
  but say no one wants to spend money on trackers. Well, a company answered that, and it's called Meta, and when Horizons got announced, the first major complaint was where was everyone's legs? It's still a joke even to this day, because the quest doesn't support native leg tracking as one of the major reasons why it wasn't added to their avatars


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:26:10
content:
  I mean, you don't need the latest graphics card or even a PC to access VRC, but people do get them anyway. Hell, you don't even need a VR headset... but people then spend the $250 and buy one anyway after they see the magic it offers.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:26:49
content:
  And super full body tracking, the glorious 11-point tracking... it's a hard sell, but for some people, it's as magical as when they decided to buy their first VR headset after seeing what people were doing


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:33:46
content:
  considering that FinalIK already could support it, and people were already modding it in... there not only was enough of a request that people just did it themselves, but the support was already in the engine itself


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:35:14
content:
  you seem to always go back to 'on launch' and seem to 100% dodge around the obvious thing against your argument: other people were so wanting that feature, they made their own god damn platform and even modded the client to add the support by tweaking a few things. When VRC announced '10 point tracking', that's only impressive... if everyone else already didn't go past that point already


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:37:38
content:
  so we should all just accept our 10 point tracking and eat our vegetables, and pretend that other locations just flat out have better tracking and because they aren't VRC, we should accept our bed bath and go fuck ourselves gift cards


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:38:29
content:
  yeah, you kind of are: you are saying that when VRC announced a major update to full body tracking, that we should just accept the 10point system THEY WERE ABOUT TO LAUNCH WITH


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:39:23
content:
  the dawn of the beta for the full body system update, and people were already going "Why doesn't it support 11 when everyone else does?"


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:44:29
content:
  again... assuming the beta was the official launch... but whatever. I'm sure doing better than your competition, as much of an uphill battle they have, is maybe a good idea as to not draw criticism. They were already called out when their one dev tried to pretend that interactable physical bones wasn't ever used on any other platform... when every other platform had it for YEARS. Same goes with 11p: trying to pretend that 10p is a major upgrade and the one that will only ever be needed... when everyone else has had 11p for YEARS as well... doesn't mean someone isn't going to notice


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:45:42
content:
  VRC's budget, and constant argument that it'll do fine because of all the investments, towers over everyone else... even with the scale of the platform in mind... the fact that they wanted to make a competing function... but not even meet all the way... yeah.... no.... that isn't how it works


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:47:11
content:
  honestly, I'm not sure why HTC hasn't just purchased them. If they ever stopped receiving investment money, it's going to be a horror show


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:48:05
content:
  well... then how do investors get returns on their investments... if VRC just continues to burn money in operation fees and no income?


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:50:07
content:
  I could have, but that's not something you ask during an interview. I know some events they do usually have charges to the people running those events, but I can't imagine the amount charged covers bandwidth fees and server uptime costs in full.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 19:51:02
content:
  hmm... though if that's the case... I guess vket would maybe be where a major chunk of money comes in, knowing that major companies dive into it every time...


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 21:32:46
content:
  The problem with this statement is you have zero ideas what VRchat spends on overhead or what the revenue generated by VRC+ actually is.  You're not basing it on anything


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 21:34:17
content:
  as a full reference, no, but I can speculate from when I used to be on prior and base expenses on knowledge from previous operations I've done in the past with server costs, and the numbers that are still presented.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 21:34:50
content:
  ...that and average avatar file sizes, which is shown in the avatar info panel when you select people


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 21:36:39
content:
  Actually... I can. That knowledge applies to pretty much everyone. Voice data still has to go somewhere, IK data has to be sent, and avatar packages still require hosting and downloading. Having knowledge on how to run a basic server for VR applications does help in knowing what to look for for estimating something like that


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 21:40:17
content:
  data is data. servers are servers. bandwidth is bandwidth. You can calculate it all the same, no matter the platform. Changes in platform only change where the data goes to. Neos is P2P, so none of it is on their end to worry about... unless it's the relay.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 21:44:28
content:
  I think the medical and dental is new. I can't really recall if it was part of the offerings back in 2019 or not. Interview process was fun though and I can recommend it


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 22:48:20
content:
  Karel holds the keys to the wallets. Whether or not Frooxius is legally entitled to any of it is the big question.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 22:49:54
content:
  With Froox’s anti-NCR announcements, I think Karel had a pretty strong case for claiming all of it if it ends up in court.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 22:52:49
content:
  If the predominant stance the dev team and Froox have been voicing is that they want nothing to do with NCR and painting  it as a separate project from Neos itself;  I can see that as a point of evidence in litigation to deny ownership of the ICO funds to Froox, the Patreon is another matter though.


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 22:54:42
content:
  Yeah, all the public declarations won't build a strong case for Froox or any of the dev team to make a claim on any part of the ICO


type: message
date: 2022-05-26 22:54:59
content:
  It's good to know that holding the keys to a wallet is not the same as actually legally owning the wallet


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 02:02:42
content:
  Eh. XD It's not all that irrational tbh. Get away from old technical debt, rearchitect with clearer vision of the challenges. Past me was bad at anticipating the future, current me would do well in reimplementation. Not to mention it would possibly generate good documentation >.> <.<


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 03:45:44
content:
  I have my work email open on an extra monitor to keep an eye on the workload for the holiday weekend


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:41:18
edit_date: 2022-05-28 07:22:15
content:
  Damn, I don't get what it is with the hatred towards furries, mentors, etc. Here.

  We should be focusing on the actual problems, not slapping labels on groups and hating them with a blanket.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:43:36
content:
  Just because someone is a "cryptobro" does not mean they're horrible and hate neos, not all of them are against neos, just becuase someone likes crypto or NCR doesn't make them bad

  And therefore, just because someone is a furry doesn't mean they are horrible and just want neos as a sex game, or hate any new people, hate crypto people, just want the game to not be capitalistic, etc.

  People wanna slap labels on furries while arguing against having a label slapped on themselves when it's the same thing


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:44:08
content:
  I applied to become a mentor recently to help people and introduce more to the game, no matter what background, no matter who they are, no matter if they have a hard time learning or pick it up really easily


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:46:19
edit_date: 2022-05-27 22:47:26
content:
  That's something I already try to do on neos anyways, and that's something I've enjoyed about the community is that I'm welcomed for that.

  I've had people I don't know at all come up to me and ask me for help and I just.. Help them if I can, because I think it's best to spread kindness.

  I don't care if you like crypto, I don't care if you hate Karel, whatever. What matters is the kind of person you are, and if you're kind, I don't see an issue.
  I think there's atleast a bunch of people in neos who share my sentiments.

  If we all sit here getting angry at eachother repeatedly it gets nowhere tbh.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:49:39
content:
  I've come to neos because the communities of other similar things were more toxic.

  VRChat is very exclusive in a lot of ways because people like to keep stuff hidden, people don't like to help eachother, etc.

  Tower Unite, which I partook in a ton, had a community that would try and attack any furries if they got popular, and there were a lot of messed up things behind the scenes, involving like, an actual pedophile, who was also a furry, having access to the moderation systems by using exploits to the game.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:52:05
edit_date: 2022-05-28 05:25:42
content:
  I feel this is something which is repeated a lot and just isn't true. "VRChat is very exclusive in a lot of ways because people like to keep stuff hidden, people don't like to help eachother, etc." There are literal repositories of prefabs and tools to help people make content for VRC which people have made and shared. The help channels for VRC are normally also very active and friendly, as are the creators Discords, of which I'm in several.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:53:02
content:
  I'm sorry but maybe you've had a better experience yourself, but when I've tried to partake in making vrchat content, as someone who's been in vrchat since 2017

  Being told that someone knows how to do something but telling me to figure it out myself is very discouraging


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:53:45
content:
  Things may have changed in the past year but I got sick of that rhetoric and that's kinda why I quit and moved to tower unite


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:53:58
content:
  So many people worked together, granted you could do less comparatively, no VR, but there was Co op building


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:54:40
content:
  Neos was introduced to me by a friend from tower unite

  Tower is not a furry game by far, and I didn't just make friends there because they were furries. In fact, many of the friends I made there weren't furries at all, but they were just nice people. I still talk to some of them.

  The conversation with my friend in tower was like
  They told me to try neos, I didn't want to cuz I couldnt afford getting my avatar ported

  And they told me that they'd do it for free, and that people in neos do that for free

  And I was kinda shocked at first, but now I enjoy porting people's avatars over for free, just to help people.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:57:23
content:
  I've had many bad experiences with vrchat sadly, granted I joined mostly public furry related worlds, but the fact of everyone grouping up into cliques and ignoring me when I try and partake kinda hurt.

  It felt like vrchat was only enjoyable if I had friends on, otherwise what was the point, meeting new people was hard

  And then in non furry public worlds, people tended to be against the fact I was a furry.

  And it's not like I have much to do or show, since I can't just start building stuff around others.

  The best times I've had are usually when fucking around/trolling a bit in vrchat, because atleast then people don't see me as some random furry who doesn't matter, and laugh along with it.
  But there's only so much of that I can do


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 22:58:02
content:
  Neos it atleast feels like people want to help, and want to make stuff together, and I feel more comfy in public worlds


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:07:53
content:
  I still stand by my general way of how I explain VRChat: it's a fantastic scene viewer with a built in multi-user system and VR support. When it comes to being able to view Unity created scenes, it works well, and learning Unity is readily available in many resources.

  Neos is more of a Unity editor with a multi-user system. This is why being able to help people in Neos is more of the core because the editor is where you do most of the magic. VRC is where you show published work, but Neos is where you can show the work in progress.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:11:12
content:
  I honestly agree with this. Vrchat does look better than neos in a lot of scenarios, and there is much more content. And cooler content, such as the whole jet set radio thing made, I enjoy that a lot. But alot of neos is being able to work with others, and that's something amazing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:12:08
content:
  Well yeah. That doesn't  hang the fact the non furry communities in vrchat that I've been around tend to just try and troll if you're a furry, or just insult you, push you away, whatever

  Or the whole block immediately if you're a furry type people


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:12:15
content:
  not really. It goes hand in hand. I used to do public hopping and sometimes you find cool places and people, and sometimes you find people who only prove that accessing online resources should require the equal of a driver's license.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:13:07
content:
  The people who made fun of me for being a furry would do it in a way where they're trying to laugh along with me, or try and make stupid jokes about furries with me, even if they weren't a fan of furries


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:13:31
content:
  And then neos, the public worlds, even the mostly furry ones, aren't nearly as clique-y as vrchat's that I've seen


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:14:43
content:
  I don't like to limit my range to furry communities, the only reason in vrchat I ended up doing that is because outside of furry communities people didn't really seem to like me


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:14:55
content:
  That's definitely not true, it's *incredibly* clique'y but you're likely there enough to be part of it or not notice.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:15:53
content:
  I think that makes more sense in another way. When I upload content to VRChat, you have to 'publish' the content into the system's storage. When a world is created or updated, it is also published. Finished works are desired in their system, or mostly complete ones.

  Neos is when you have the editor still open. It could be complete, but it also might not be. As a result, things look unfinished at times... because they are. It might also mean that people come in, see something unfinishsed someone is working on, but then duck out because of the 'unfinished' feeling of it all.

  There's people who watch hour long videos of people working on sculptures or various art projects. The uncut footages of intensive work. Some people just go to galleries to appreciate the finished work.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:16:21
content:
  With neos.. Yeah as of late I've gotten to know alot of people so I've made friends, but that's only as of late


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:16:42
content:
  Before then I still hung out in the public worlds, hosted my own, and people joined even if they didn't know me


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:19:26
content:
  That I do see a lot. Problem is I've done my best to keep my doors open in my worlds, but I'm usually doing boring work that isn't very entertaining. Fixing a program for websocket communications, adjusting the logix, fixing an avatar for someone... nothing with massive pizzazz.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:20:23
content:
  And due to the security, or lack thereof, working on a world with "the door open" so to speak is inviting disaster and given the lack of version control, it would be easy to lose days, weeks or even months of work.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:21:53
content:
  Eh fair... would be neat to have a git like system, especially for headless, where it'd be maybe a bit easier to add?


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:23:20
content:
  yeah. I do have my headless set in a container to auto-backup on its own, so in a way, I do have a history system... but it's hit and miss


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:25:48
content:
  The headless is barely functional and feels like it continues to run on sheer luck a lot of the time. Also if you use your headless to save, it'll often get stuck as it will conflict with itself.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:25:56
content:
  I don't think neos is perfect tbh
  And it most certainly isn't

  Building on neos is hell compared to tower unite, but I enjoy it more than vrchat, especially because I can test without having to wait for the build process,and I can do everything in the game, and with others.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:26:40
content:
  You don't need to wait for the build process in Unity. Play mode works for most cases and there's CyanTester for other testing now too for a full run.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:26:52
content:
  Because in the end that doesn't help anything, and if there were no furries, the game would still probably be in this mess
  If there was no crypto fans, this game would probably still be in this mess


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:27:52
content:
  I've seen things look fine in the play mode but then I build it and I need to redo because it didn't look right


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:28:21
content:
  Having my own vision occluded or something else going horribly wrong has been more of an issue trying to work on avatars in Neos and then losing progress from that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:30:07
content:
  Maybe its' just my experience from SL and having a flaky connection, but I'm used to having to work around those kind of issues with scripts and the like. Don't get me wrong, I wish I didn't have to but... saving often is something I just got used to... though having a proper backup system, well... we all do agree Neos could really use some kind of staging system or at least the options for it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:30:50
content:
  Most of the time if I wanna do something in unity I somehow end up screwing it up and having to start from scratch because otherwise my changes don't work


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:31:12
content:
  After doing that like ten or so times, and anytime I asked people for help people wanted money, I just gave up and.said I'd pay people to do what I want done.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:31:39
content:
  You say you picked it up more, but are you doing anything more than the absolute basics? I feel 99.9% in Neos aren't, because the tools are so incredibly basic and barebones and would drive most people insane trying to do anything complicated or extensive with them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:33:06
content:
  I'm used to both. I don't have the options to test avatars as well as I need to, namely with FBT stuff, but thankfully VRC did add the test publish function, which is usually enough for me to fiddle with things until they work right. It'd be neater to have a more direct link, though, as having to put an avatar on and off... when the client should just acknowledge the change in a test file... is kind of annoying


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:34:04
content:
  One thing I've noticed is that replacing models with like.. An extra material slot added or.. A blendshape modified in unity requires you to redo everything


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:35:15
content:
  Either that, or the people I've talked to were lying, which I also wouldn't put past them since the ones I'd asked were trying to get me to pay them to do the model stuff in unity themselves

  But yeah.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:37:34
content:
  Neos I've been able to do so much that I enjoy and am happy with
  Stuff I couldn't do in vrchat when I tried my best, because I got discouraged that everything kept messing up and asking for help with it just resulted in people linking tutorials or etc.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:38:04
content:
  And it's like.. Yes, I could do it.exactly as the tutorial says, but that's not what I have or what I want
  Or it doesn't work with what I already have


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:39:04
content:
  You just overwrite the existing model file, it requires zero work. In fact it's one of the major things I found was an annoyance in Neos. If I want to update my avatar model in Unity, I just save over the FBX and that's it, nothing else required. In Neos I have to redo the entire avatar from scratch.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:40:19
content:
  Unity it's apparently supposed to work, it just never has for me, with multiple models that were completely seperate


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:40:58
content:
  True, but in unity iirc modifying bones and saving over the fbx also always requires you to redo things (from what I've been told)


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:41:13
content:
  VRchat has it's own community in the whole prefabs thing. I've interfaced with them a bit, but I just hate the workflow of traditional game engines. I have a blast making stuff in Neos, even with complex dumb workarounds. The workflow is collaborative from the start and the whole toolchain is designed with that in mind.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:42:35
content:
  But yeah with neos, since I mostly just move a couple polygons, change blendshapes, or add a material slot, it works


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:50:44
content:
  I know you know better than this. You have at least a passing familiarity with software architecture. LogiX is not the interesting part of Neos, it is a consequence of the interesting part of neos, which is as ever the entity component model and the underlying network primitives.


type: message
date: 2022-05-27 23:57:38
edit_date: 2022-05-27 23:58:03
content:
  I genuinely think Logix needs a massive refactor. It feels like a combination of the worst parts of blueprint coding and actual coding, with the benefit that it exists in world space so scaling, location and visibility all also become issues.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 00:04:56
content:
  I mean, VRC has UdonSharp so you can use VRC's blueprint system OR write pure code, you can do whichever you prefer or even mix them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 00:07:49
edit_date: 2022-05-28 00:08:05
content:
  Sure, and I have to use a bunch of third party addons to fix major design issues with Neos. What's your point?


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 13:14:38
content:
  Can't spend even 10 minutes a day checking on something that they solely are responsible for. Doesn't bode well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 13:56:18
edit_date: 2022-05-28 16:09:05
content:
  I'm already in the Discord, you can't talk there without the usual army of zealots piling on, so I have no interest in that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 13:57:00
content:
  Though that does remind me, I need to leave the Discord, I got pulled in again by accident and being there just annoys me at this point. The cognitive dissonance is... yeah.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:13:44
edit_date: 2022-05-29 05:22:24
content:
  It's a shame most of those people in there are die-hard Frooxius sycophants who don't have a single shred of respect for Karel or the NCR holders. Trying to communicate in the Discord as a Karel supporter is usually met with a wall of screeching bad takes from the cartoon animal avatar mafia.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:20:00
content:
  Hmm I think you’re twisting things a bit here. If people say something supportive of Froox here they won’t get dogpiled.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:23:47
edit_date: 2022-05-29 05:23:55
content:
  I think Froox is a cool guy and a talented dev but to build Neos into something substantial requires more than that. Unfortunately Froox has acquired a cult following of furries that have made Neos a toxic environment for anyone outside of their cult.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:25:12
content:
  Just look at what happens if anyone tries to say anything positive about Karel (which is seen as against Froox).. it’s not inaccurate


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:29:43
content:
  Not at all. I have friends who are furries. However my experience so far has been bad with the ones who are fanatically anti-Karel, mostly furries.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:33:38
content:
  I think one of the other problems is unconstructive discussion on both sides....which have just led to community generalizations


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:34:30
content:
  We have crypto users that come to screw around and stir the spot, and then we have some furry users that just really hate crypto. And then suddenly both assume the other is toxic


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 18:53:30
content:
  Its because they dont know how reality work, polarization is a neccesity. You do not profit by letting others trample you into complacency


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 20:34:31
content:
  Lol if that was the case then almost everyone would be guilty of stealing…

  I think he more means the coordinated sell off / general FUD caused by the team


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 20:49:04
edit_date: 2022-05-28 20:49:30
content:
  The general mutinous taking over of the platform and blocking of progress, we don't have evidence of coordinated malicious sales but if it happened it only adds to the extent of it


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 20:58:32
content:
  This is again another thing people keep echoing, but is infact illegal, so he is probably NOT using company funds to attack the other devs legally.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:02:44
content:
  Let me reiterate: Company funds cannot be used to cover legal fees in disputes between shareholders of a company. So again, the "he's just using Solirax/Neos money for his legal representation" is almost certainly not true.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:04:05
content:
  Solrax Ltd which is the company under which they operated at the time is incorporated in the United Kingdom.


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:05:44
content:
  https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/insights/blogs/dispute-resolution-law-blog/company-money-should-not-be-used-to-pay-legal-costs-in-disputes-between-shareholders


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:06:30
content:
  "This case relates to proceedings brought under the Companies Act 2006 s.994 which provides at subsection (1):

  A member of a company may apply to the court by petition for an order under this Part on the ground—
  (a) that the company's affairs are being or have been conducted in a manner that is unfairly prejudicial to the interests of members generally or of some part of its members (including at least himself), or
  (b) that an actual or proposed act or omission of the company (including an act or omission on its behalf) is or would be so prejudicial."


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:08:12
content:
  I mean, the thing you linked just reiterates what I said... "The company is usually a nominal party to these sorts of claims, however the general rule is that it should not participate in, and its funds should not be used on disputes between shareholders, unless it is demonstrably necessary – say for giving disclosure of company documents"


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:19:38
edit_date: 2022-05-28 21:20:27
content:
  The NFT whales really like NCR lol...just found a wallet with 26 cryptopunks (~$4M) + a bunch of other NFTs. Only ERC20 holding...NCR. They've been quietly accumulating all the way from $1 to $0.30. https://zapper.fi/account/tokenangels.eth


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:21:41
edit_date: 2022-05-28 21:22:09
content:
  Another NFT whale with a lot of NCR (they bought much higher but have continued to HODL): https://zapper.fi/account/yfimaxi.eth


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:22:23
content:
  Might look back at this moment some time soon and realise how big an opportunity it was to get NCR at less than $1


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:23:40
content:
  Pretty crazy when you think the whole drop was caused by some team drama. Imagine what happens when that's resolved...Nothing fundamentally changed


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:33:12
content:
  Actually after all the buybacks, there isn't much NCR floating around. Also the team have sold off all their NCR so there's no threat of that anymore.. NCR is much more well distributed and decentralised now


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:35:28
content:
  That was the case before with the mint - at the end of the day, Karel/Solirax can do whatever they want to NCR so it will always be centralised in that sense. What I mean is the tokens that are in circulation are better distributed


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:42:22
content:
  ...actually, that does raise an interesting point: is there a dedicated wallet that is composed of the entire balance of NCR within Neos itself that is used for the transfers going out?


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:43:00
content:
  I mean, if that's the case, a good percentage of it wouldn't be just to the company, but rather the treasury amount required to make the balances in-world have something to reflect


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:45:41
content:
  This is the main managed wallet afaik https://etherscan.io/address/0xf87725a4592ebfce1c83a8145cfd38c285228e27


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:46:16
content:
  alright, that's kind of what I figured, but wanted to check to ensure it wasn't done in some weird loophole kind of way


type: message
date: 2022-05-28 21:47:30
content:
  A lot of this might also be reserved funds from the CDF. So it would only be realised once we start minting again


type: message
date: 2022-05-29 00:07:21
edit_date: 2022-05-29 22:19:53
content:
  Even I will not stupe so low as to go into those severs there's a reason why I report them and leave them as soon as I do so


type: message
date: 2022-05-29 00:07:32
edit_date: 2022-05-29 00:07:48
content:
  I am very upset that this chat is how Neos is being officially represented on this platform. No moderation at all. Please get an actual community management strategy together or use the existing infrastructure. Even an auto moderation bot would catch this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-29 00:27:36
content:
  So how far along is your project? Can I create worlds there? Does it support HD video in worlds? Does it have a working inventory system?


type: message
date: 2022-05-29 10:04:20
content:
  Because you continually spam things that are nothing to do with Neos while shilling for other random crypto. The fact this isn't obvious to you basically gives away that you're either a troll, or lack even basic common sense.


type: message
date: 2022-05-29 19:44:00
edit_date: 2022-05-29 19:58:02
content:
  Somewhat. You can send NCR to other users and buy cloud storage space for your inventory.
  (Everyone gets 1GB free) You do not need NCR to play Neos.

  NCR can only be used in the standalone build which you can download for free here:
  https://assets.neos.com/install/NeosPublicSetup.exe

  Neos is also on Steam however the team was forced to remove the code for token functionality due to Valve's conditions. Otherwise Neos couldn't stay on Steam.
  https://store.steampowered.com/app/740250/Neos_VR/

  You can ofc exchange NCR on exchanges too.


type: message
date: 2022-05-29 20:09:43
content:
  Also worth noting that any storage purchased is usable in either version of the client. In addition, you can be gifted storage space by another user who is using the standalone client, and same vice versa.


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 08:20:47
content:
  if you hare something like an interactive thing like a booper, you can just 'parent' it to the nearest bone on your avatar that would be where you want it to be.
  You can do this by using the inspector on both the item (booper) and your avatar. Navigate to where your avatar's bone is (to be the parent of the item), and then grab drag the item's handle (the name of the item on the left side of its inspector) to the bone on your avatar. This will parent the item to your avatar's bone. 
  From there, you can move the item to more precisely where you want it. It should then move with your avatar without question


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 08:24:17
content:
  you 'can' inspect yourself more easily in VR, but either way in desktop mode or VR, it's easier to tinker with something that isn't yourself


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 21:48:22
edit_date: 2022-05-30 21:48:45
content:
  I mean, Neos has always had competition. It's always been competing with every other social VR platform like VRC. Sure, they don't work in the exact same way, but to claim they don't compete in the same space is just a bizarre denial.


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 21:50:41
content:
  When I build worlds, I can choose to do it in Neos, VRC, CVR, AltSpace, Sansar, etc. *How* the world gets built is largely irrelevant and comes down to preference or capability. The end result is what matters the most. And when people decide where to spend that evening socialising, the same thing comes up, which platform to use? You can just swap out any of the common VR social platforms. Just because there's differences does not make them completely non-competing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 22:06:49
content:
  Hot take: but Alt-space is kind of a direct competitor in the education and virtual space for work.  And has 6x the concurrent users


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 23:18:04
edit_date: 2022-05-30 23:19:24
content:
  I haven't checked any of AltSpace's interaction systems, but I do recall hearing something about weird html stuff, which I guess means you can use javascript to do extra things to it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 23:20:05
edit_date: 2022-05-30 23:20:23
content:
  AltSpace is more like the Teams version of VR communication systems, which is fitting given MS's ownership. That being said, it isn't hard to say that more people use Teams over other solutions like Mattermost


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 23:34:00
edit_date: 2022-05-30 23:49:00
content:
  oh, because someone wants to keep highlighting my comments, for anyone who hasn't done so already, AltSpace is requiring you link with a Microsoft account before 05/31 in order to continue using their system.


type: message
date: 2022-05-30 23:34:52
edit_date: 2022-05-30 23:49:04
content:
  this may be the Neos telegram, but figured that it was worth pointing out for anyone who peruses on multiple platforms


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 06:43:40
content:
  The main reason I'm building worlds in neos is because neos is so much more useful for the idea of story based roleplay stuff, larping kind of. Like..
  The fact that you can spawn items quickly, the fact that you can build stuff, add stuff onto avatars quickly and easily, EE_Items, etc.

  All that is super useful and something that isn't really replicated


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 06:53:11
edit_date: 2022-05-31 06:53:29
content:
  But for further, vrchat and neos are really the main ones with games and such

  Neos is the only one with these features of saving items and loading the.and such

  For instance, one thing vrchat doesn't have that I know of is persistent saving of things for worlds and such, if you play a game you can't play it, save, come back to it, etc.

  With.neos, you could save your data in an item, save the item, and spawn it out later and insert it somewhere. Kind of like how some arcade machines had.like.. Scorecards and stuff.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 07:40:57
content:
  it is worth pointing out VRChat did announce awhile back that they were working on a persistence system for worlds, along with individual player persistence. While some of the things mentioned in that twitch announcement did include things like the avatar dynamics system... their announcement was also that it'd be out by the summer... of 2021, along with groups and a creator economy... of which only one of these things are actually out, and it wasn't last year.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 07:42:42
content:
  however, object persistence and data persistence is a bit different. At this time, Neos is the only one with an active inventory system. This means items that are either avatar related, world related, or however, are storable and recallable. The moment that VRC adds a sharable objects system, even at an attachment only level, that will really spell doom and gloom.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 07:45:32
content:
  The only thing I can think of that is holding VRC back on such actions boils down to the Quest version, which accounts for a major percentage of its users. As a result, any inventory system added would have to account for Quest renditions of said objects, even though in all honesty, it'd save creators quite a bit of headache, and even VRC themselves some trouble as well, since items could be made as PC and Quest versions, akin to how avatars work.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 07:52:14
edit_date: 2022-07-22 22:54:33
content:
  anyway, while VRChat's system isn't quite the same, it shouldn't be ignored. Neos may have an economy function, but it doesn't have a direct integration within the system itself outside of storage purchases, and VRC has already announced wanting to add a subscription model for users to make use of. While you can save a world's state, creators in VRC have found ways to get around this and have created password like systems to store information. The only current leg up that Neos has is inventory management, but even a basic update to VRC's end will make the argument not mean much.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 08:00:54
edit_date: 2022-05-31 08:03:36
content:
  I just contribute to the discussions. There was previous commentary regarding the differences between Neos, VRC, and others, and the claims that the systems are different. While they are different, that isn't really an excuse for Neos to undermine VRC's lack of something as a pure positive, especially since some of that can be remedied.

  No questions are exactly needed in that relation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 08:06:10
edit_date: 2022-05-31 15:19:48
content:
  everything I say gets a react from you in a similar way. Not sure why the declaration was needed, but oh well


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 08:41:49
content:
  poetically ironic then that such remains rampant here, despite the commentary given to the Discord and the ironic name of its service.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:04:15
content:
  Avatar persistence has definitely been out for a while. Only thing that'd make it stronger is if there was some kind of 'baking' function for some blendshape properties, which could allow for even stronger optimization.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:04:50
content:
  since beside color options, once you have shape settings finished, you usually don't need to tweak certain ones anymore.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:11:45
content:
  Blendshapes don't really seem to have that huge cost like they do in Neos, at least not that I've noticed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:20:15
content:
  Think of it like a stored animation, it adds to the size of the avatar. Though shouldn't add to the rendering cost unless it's activated at all. So blendshapes at 0 still add to the filesize, but not to the rendering cost.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:45:51
content:
  To make matters even more complicated, there's the material/drawcall and additional mesh debate. For example, you can separate the head mesh from the body mesh, such that blendshapes for facial expressions and speech. Problem is that if the head is now separated, sometimes you might as well make it its own material, but that increases drawcalls. Likewise, that action technically creates an additional mesh, and depending on how well the engine handles things, this could create issues with object occlusion.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:47:35
content:
  In VRC's case, sometimes it handles this occlusion... badly. Even if you keep the entire avatar to 1 material, the head will vanish if a person's viewpoint has it only partially out of view. So the body is fine, but you get a corner of the vision situation with someone's head doing the Houdini


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:49:59
content:
  It's not common practice, but people who heavily focus on optimization tend to point that out. From what I understand, it boils down to, at least with Unity, the centerpoint of the mesh being the issue. A cheeky solution could be to hide a single vertex at the base to force the middlepoint to be about the same as the body.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:53:00
content:
  For Neos, the largest culprit isn't the mesh; it's the components within the avatars. A plain Jane avatar with no scripted functions will operate just fine. Once you add additional things to it, those components all have object information and are updated like bones on an avatar


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 17:54:23
content:
  So, every time you add logix or an additional node to an avatar, it's like adding another bone, and as you pointed out earlier, bone based systems eat up a lot of performance resources by comparison


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:00:28
content:
  well, there was talks about how to resolve that: Neos likes to sync everything that moves, including those components. The idea would have been to stop doing network updates on things that didn't change or can be more easily calculated by the individual. That'd also reduce some overhead since now you aren't telling the client something 'moved' when in actuality, it didn't persay


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:02:22
content:
  So... in another weird way: Neos's network system is also not very optimal, or moreso too aggressive with wanting to have everything properly updated. On the flipside, this does mean if you need to ensure everything is synced up, then Neos does a good job at it... albeit too good of a job


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:06:57
content:
  This is user error. They need to correct the bounding box on their avatar. It's only guestimated by default.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:08:43
content:
  The problem with Neos is people adding endless shit to their avatars and then there being no way to audit people's avatars or even block them. People memed about VRC performance but then further drove Neos' already struggling performance into the ground by using the worst avatars imaginable. The worst part is that it then ends up an all-or-nothing scenario, you either block all custom avatars in a world, or none of them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:12:51
content:
  100%. You can't block people or avatars. You can block people joining your session, but there's no "block" like VRC and no way to hide someone's avatar. You can mute people at least.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:16:45
content:
  It's become a real issue in the cinema because I want people to be able to use their own avatars, but so many people have such shit avatars that murder everyone's performance immediately and just don't care if you confront them about it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:17:31
content:
  Even better is that one of the people that was renowned for having an avatar that tanked everyone's performance and didn't care, was made into a mentor.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:18:25
edit_date: 2022-05-31 18:18:58
content:
  I am aware, I have my own and have implemented them. It doesn't stop load in issues, it doesn't stop VRAM usage and it is easily defeatable.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:19:05
content:
  Yeah, I had to actually check myself: you can ban people from worlds and sessions you run, but not actually hide like VRC. Heck, even HiFi didn't have this issue.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:20:11
content:
  Yeah, I had several people come to me saying "Can you fucking believe it, they made X a mentor?" which was... yeah, another worrying moment.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:20:45
content:
  I think part of why you can't really hide someone  is due to how Neos handles objects and avatars. At anytime, an object can become an avatar, so if you did 'block' someone, the objects associated with them or even not associated can still mirror what they are doing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:21:42
content:
  still, the lack of 'hide processed objects that belong to X' is kind of just silly. Somehow I thought a basic block function existed, but I stand corrected


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:21:45
edit_date: 2022-05-31 18:21:56
content:
  Neos just needs to disable all components under that user's root. Mesh renderers, colliders, audio, sound, etc.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:22:36
content:
  The other issue is that Neos doesn't really handle asset streaming or unloading, so hiding their avatar and disabling their renderers doesn't free up their VRAM usage.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:23:37
edit_date: 2022-05-31 18:23:41
content:
  What happens with interactions though? Blocked players will still be able to move objects, pull levers, shoot a gun in a multiplayer game, etc. I wonder how that interaction is networked and if thats a big issue for blocking functionality


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:23:43
content:
  I had to shelve a project because it required 36GB of VRAM, lol (8GB after lowering all textures to 1x1k) so until asset streaming becomes a thing, it's unusable.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:24:10
content:
  To fully do a proper garbage dump, you have to jump 2 sessions. The first one won't clean it in case you have people hopping over to your newer session. Anyone who wasn't in the one prior will be cleaned up. The second jump then correctly does it, because no one else was in the first jump.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:24:26
edit_date: 2022-05-31 18:25:15
content:
  Because Neos isn't well designed, unfortunately. In their defence, VRC didn't get it till a few years back either.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:24:27
content:
  Oh oof, then I guess I should delete a bunch of broken high poly items from my world then that I just disabled them and the mesh renderer


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:25:18
content:
  Basically the rule in Neos is this: If it exists in the world, it's downloaded and then loaded into RAM/VRAM. Regardless of it's state.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:26:39
content:
  The ONLY way around this is to swap the asset URLs on objects from null to the desired resource (or vice versa) when they are/aren't needed. This is obviously impractical at scale though as it's entirely manual to implement for EVERY SINGLE asset piece.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:27:07
content:
  It's still an issue to this day with VRC. I spoke to TCL about it during the last event back in March... and then he promptly crashed due to running out of memory


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:27:28
content:
  That's how my cinema functions, all heavy media (music, films, video, etc) is nulled when you're not in the respective zone, then swapped back to the relevant asset when you get close to it again.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:27:53
content:
  VRC has texture streaming now, but that won't help if he's somewhere that is simply too texture dense.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:28:41
edit_date: 2022-05-31 19:11:28
content:
  Also there's still a bug with SteamVR where if you keep swapping from VRC to SteamVR's overlay and back, it leaks VRAM.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:30:11
content:
  Swapping to the desktop and then swapping back, 90% of the time causes vrchat to drop to like 10fps unless I'm in the SteamVR menu


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:31:43
content:
  I know for some events, like the BLFC one, they did do a check at the entrance to ensure you weren't holding the entirety of Wikipedia in your avatar


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:34:42
content:
  Oh its not, but its one of the issues that people complain about, when someone joins and causes 2-3 seconds of freeze time


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:34:59
content:
  The downside of user based checks is that it means the user has *already* loaded their terrible avatar before the checks can take place.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:35:48
edit_date: 2022-05-31 18:36:54
content:
  I try to make users consider what they use by having their cloud avatar not load by default in the cinema, they first see a message asking them to use a decent avatar. So if they load in their shitbox of an avatar, I'll know it was a conscious choice to fuck everyone else, rather than an accident.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:39:17
content:
  I think a major culprit is also that some people who are on Neos may have come from SL. The thing with SL is laggy scripts only hurt the server. You can write a while loop doing the Fibonacci sequence, and that won't do jack to anyone's framerate or CPU resources.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:40:22
content:
  Yeah if I go to a world with that I usually just only use my default avatar tbh, which isn't too bad compared to most


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:40:25
content:
  but in Neos, from what I understand, some logix that runs is based on synced data. Things like FPS counters are based on the projected user's FPS information sent over. The text is then calculated and processed on the individual basis.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:40:41
content:
  I forget how many slots but I've been optimizing it more and such, and it's a custom avatar not like.. The Rex or smth


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:41:30
content:
  But if nobody's there except me and friends, I do have a way more unoptimized avatar I use sometimes, though like.. The reason it's unoptimized is cuz it's the spag kanga model and apparently that's just very unoptimized jsndjdksms


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:42:21
content:
  hell, I'm redoing the logix in my avatar from the ground up because I want it to run well and not use too many resources, on top of redoing the UV layout so that more detail is shown, even though it's a single material avatar


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:43:08
content:
  I have several friends that use it so I've poked around it a decent amount, it seems fine. It could depend on the textures you're using for that lag maybe...


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:44:40
content:
  Though I also saved a multitool onto the avatar

  I know I'm the worst xd

  But it's not my default avatar and I avoid using it if too laggy or if the world asks for such.


  but I've tested with just like.. The base model and my textures and it still takes a couple seconds to load. The multitool just makes it worse x3

  I forget how many slots the avatar has tho


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:44:59
content:
  and that does raise another concern: if you upload a texture, whatever format it was supplied with will be somewhat mirrored in Neos. Uploading TGAs w ill always result in a chonkier texture, even with the same compression models in use as a PNG version. The other issue is that people tend to just upload 4k nightmares and suddenly people wonder why GPUs are running out of VRAM so quickly


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:46:26
content:
  4k should not be an issue at all, it's almost the standard at this point. It's only an issue if you have a bunch of them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:55:19
content:
  Could have sworn I remember talking to someone about that, but I can test it in a bit. Doing some mower repairs atm


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:56:06
content:
  it boils down to that the file sizes were larger between the two, even if you adjust the compression stuff inside Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:56:07
content:
  They should produce identical results. Neos will store those away on the backend and then the asset server will issue you DXT1 or DXT3 (if it contains alpha channels) images in return.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:57:11
content:
  The only difference is that Neos always stores the original which counts towards your storage. So if you upload a 10Kb PNG and a 1GB TGA, they will actually take up that much space on your storage and there's *nothing* you can do about it, well, there didn't used to be.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:57:52
content:
  I pestered Froox and he made a texture optimisation tool, which will find all source assets referenced in the current scene that use an overly large base asset (e.g. TIFF, TGA, etc) and will then convert them to lossless WebP instead.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 18:59:54
content:
  Basically, on say VRC, I'll typically use crunch at like 50-75% on some textures, because they can artifact away, and I won't really care. Others, I'll usually run a bit higher to like 90% as my top limit


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:00:19
content:
  But you can't adjust the numbers in Neos... despite the fact the number is outright shown and locked at 100%


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:00:35
content:
  Unity is very misleading there, that % value is quality in terms of "how hard should I try" as opposed to "how bad should it look".


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:01:21
content:
  oh... so the real multiplier is the H/N/L, and the percentage is more or less the effort of the switch?


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:01:38
content:
  In short, you always want that value set to 100%, the trade off is that the compression stage can take a lot longer (decompression times aren't affected).


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:03:32
content:
  It can affect the size but only negligibly. If you want small files, set it to Low / 100%. Alternatively you can switch to the PC tab and set the compression format yourself, as that's basically what Low/Normal/High actually does, it just changes which format it uses which is why often it'll seem like it does nothing then suddenly drastically changes.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:04:00
content:
  Because it's not like changing a JPEG quality, it's literally changing to a much worse but smaller file format.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:05:02
content:
  ah... okay. Yeah, because trying to keep my avatar as small as possible is also another thing I usually pushed for, partly because I can't account for someone's internet connection being either fiber or DSL.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:06:23
content:
  That and when I get notified of someone walking around and their avatar size is as bigger than the Deus Ex demo.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:06:54
edit_date: 2022-05-31 19:07:05
content:
  It's why my original Dragon model was a pain in the ass, highly complex texture that if you tried to crunch at all would look horrific. Luckily my new one, all-in is only like 20MB.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:09:03
content:
  yeah. In VRC, my avatar is ~7MB as a single mat and full PBR. Neos has more chonk to it (~23MB with head text), but now that I know about the compression stuff more, I think I can get that lower


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:14:14
content:
  Not to flaunt the mentor team, of whom I understand are all doing it as part of a volunteer effort, but I have had cases where I've seen people get the mentor title, and my first response is "How?", not in question of their knowledge or intelligence, but rather their behavior and character


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:19:25
content:
  There are obviously people in the mentor program that genuinely want to help, but there's a lot there for the title and there's a lot who seem quite clueless and when I asked how people like that got in, the general answer seemed to be that the focus was more on being nice than having any idea what you're doing. lol.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:20:43
edit_date: 2022-05-31 19:21:02
content:
  I think I gained a genuine disdain for the mentor team when, combined with knowing that many do it just to have a semi-official Neos title, I had someone pass up my offer of help to fix something because I wasn't a mentor.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:20:53
content:
  Ah, have you tried chatting in dms then? ^w^
  That way you don't have to listen to other people talking, it's very helpful tbh


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:21:54
content:
  From that point onwards, it was a case of if someone wants help, I'll just tell them to look for mentors and that's that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:22:19
content:
  It is a conversation though ^w^
  It involves speaking with others in a group meant to be a discussion about neos, and in which case, mentors are a part of neos! ^w^


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:23:11
content:
  But yeah, that's stupid tbh.
  That's something I'd hate to deal with myself. People being kind is something I feel this game should be built around.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:23:29
edit_date: 2022-05-31 20:34:52
content:
  I like how they gave up on the mentor alert system because people just wouldn't answer the requests. That kinda highlighted the "they're here for the title" of a lot of them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:25:01
edit_date: 2022-05-31 19:25:17
content:
  It was relied upon by new users too often, and since mentor is low-level-volunteer-forced, it was unreliable to expect 24/7 support and people were left hanging


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:25:09
content:
  It's been so long since I've been out in Neos publicly that I can barely remember but I think the problematic mentor was JoshFluffy. I'd have to double check though.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:25:57
content:
  I'm in "maintenance mode" as far as Neos is concerned. I fix my existing content, keep the cinema running, work on / make sure MetaMovie works well and that's pretty much it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:26:48
content:
  If we got rid of mentors completely and had any questions needing to go to "professional" user support


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:27:44
content:
  The mentors were literally created to deal with new users running into roadblocks due to the bad tutorial and bad ui


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:27:50
content:
  Probably, and until those things are added, probably gonna still have mentors. The mentor system has existed since before the "better" tutorial was added.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:30:36
content:
  I swear, yall are seeing me as a furry and someone who's trying to be a mentor, and painting me as someone you hate immediately
  Even though I literally agreed with your opinion


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:32:28
content:
  And you had an.issue with my opinion there despite the fact that you do not wish for mentors to be first point of contact.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:35:06
content:
  Our opinions are not 100% opposite, you're just arguing against the points you're also rooting for, because I am a furry and applying to become a mentor. That's literally it lol


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:35:38
content:
  Idk if you realize but when people refuse to work together in any way shape or form, and refuse to discuss anything, things get nowhere fast.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:36:33
content:
  Personally I feel that it could be better served as a group of people who can.help with more complex things.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:39:44
content:
  I disagree with you personally.
  In my opinion, volunteer positions are very helpful in many ways. There are many places where volunteering to help is something that could even be required.

  For instance, moderation doesn't seem very easy to have as a paid position, and getting rid of moderation would be pretty bad.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:41:30
content:
  Unless neos becomes very very profitable, I don't think they could afford paying people to just play the game and hop around worlds and that's it. Development you can pay for the time spent developing the game, for instance.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:45:31
edit_date: 2022-05-31 19:45:50
content:
  No, I believe that managing mods as a paid position unless you eliminate alot of the user-facing aspects of the staff team is pretty impossible


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:51:51
content:
  I dunno, I'd disagree with that tbh
  I feel like the best way to develop some kinda platform is to be developing something you yourself can partake in, and not something that's just focused on profit and that's about it.

  The best way to create something that everyone can be happy with is mostly focusing on the community over profit, but still keeping profit in mind.

  For instance, there are ways to profit while still being a very community facing platform.

  Some of the biggest issues with something like tower unite are the fact they place themselves way above the community, for instance. And fixing things that are issues, can take years unless it'll lose them profit if they don't fix it.

  And even tower has unpaid volunteer moderators


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:52:26
edit_date: 2022-05-31 19:52:44
content:
  But towers moderators are way less community facing, very "professional" when they do face the community, only really respond through email, and just ignore most emails.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:54:07
content:
  When you try and put yourself away from the community, it ends up resulting in an unhappy community.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:55:34
content:
  Vrchat is mostly popular because it came at the right time to get lots of funding, plus it's still the only real competition..and they keep adding things, but there are still issues that need to be addressed that they just don't seem to address


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:56:46
content:
  Neos' main issues right now boil down to them not listening to the community at all seemingly, and now there's.this halt of development which is just making things worse.tbh

  They have issues themselves they need to fix


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:58:24
content:
  If you look at things like YouTube, Twitter, etc.

  Almost everything about the teams are not user-facing or community-facing, the only reason they're still so profitable is because they came at the right time,.and there is still no good competition at all, because making competition is hard and expensive.

  But if you look at the community, there are so many that are unhappy with the platforms, despite the fact they are profitable


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 19:59:40
content:
  Most of the time people get issues solved by getting community support and getting the community facing part to recognize them, which is hard, but most of those platforms are.not user-facing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:00:50
content:
  I think a staff team that is reachable by users, or atleast responsive, caring about the community, etc. Is a very needed thing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:03:54
content:
  True, but I feel that having dev teams interact with the community means getting a better understanding of people's issues


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:05:31
content:
  Because it's easy to not really recognize something as a problem if you don't actually see anyone caring about it except a couple people reporting it

  Because the amount of people who actually will submit a ticket and such is pretty small


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:05:59
content:
  I once got a bug in tower fixed finally by directly asking the creator when he joined a world to test something

  When he was gonna fix it


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:07:03
content:
  Yeah that's the issue, gaging the priority yourself is different from what the community may prioritize things as


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:07:31
content:
  But in a consumer facing situation, floating point errors make things a mess and make the game look buggy.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:23:27
content:
  Just coming back to... all this.

  I'm actually a bit shocked. Back in HiFi, this was par for the course. You hear the infamous ding and knew that you had to be in the new user area to provide support. Granted, we were paid for the position, but even if say a mentor was 'paid' with additional storage, part of the agreement to the mentor title should be the expectation of actually providing aid to new users on some agreed upon time or at least some minimal time per week or so.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:25:34
content:
  The fact that they'd get rid of the idea of a mentor alert system when the whole idea of mentors is helping new people right now is kind of a mess.
  Yeah not everyone can be on to provide but.. The amount there are, getting a notification, atleast one should be able to help probably


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:26:15
content:
  Volunteers are great and all, but there is also a reluctance to provide support that someone, who more or less is doing the same thing, is being paid for. There is helping out, which even post-employment, I still did, but if it's a case of something you'd expect to be supplied in say a new user experience or part of a technical aid that the team should be accounted for... eventually you just wave it off.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:27:15
content:
  Thats kind of annoying x.x
  I'd really like an alert system if I become a mentor so I cna know if people need help.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:27:41
content:
  That being said, there should be, IMO, a hierarchy to the mentor system. Some are the volunteers, who handle the grunt work, and the paid ones, who handle more technical support and hop around during times when no volunteers are around or signed in to provide help.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:29:16
content:
  This is also true.
   Imo they need a better new user experience and a better ux entirely, make it so mentors have to do less work, but can still help people when they need assistance


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:30:42
content:
  Mentors don't have to be the same type of mentor they are now, helping new people learn the very basics of playing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:31:15
content:
  Here's the thing: if I understand partially what was mostly going on earlier, the argument that direct developers should be fully onboard with any new user assistance program is a bit of a stretch and honestly something I'd dare say is a bad idea.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:32:44
content:
  The whole idea is that I think it's good that developers and moderators and stuff interact with and partake in the community.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:34:02
content:
  I do apologize that you did not bother to read what I said and.instead chose to argue with me about the things that we agreed on.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:34:51
content:
  I dunno, I think you just have a hard time understanding people stating things outright, but thats okay ^^


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:35:16
content:
  When I encountered an issue, as a paid support and engagement associate, I documented it in the Fogbugz system. I usually kept a new in Slack regarding that ticket, if I felt it was important enough for the next meeting. Only then would I raise the concern during that meeting, which was with the developers and 90% of the time the CEO. Sometimes the CEO would pop into the new user area, but rarely a developer.

  At no point, unless asked by Philip Rosedale himself, did I ever directly consult him with a bug. There's an order to how things move along. When I was no longer employed, I had to submit Github tickets, which in turn fueled Fogbug tickets, which then moved along as though I was still around.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:37:32
content:
  neither. Let go due to CA laws. In order to keep me hired, they'd need a facility in the state I lived in. The only people allowed to remain had to be in CA (the HQ), WA (the Annex location), or AZ (No clue to this day). 3 other members were let go in the same way


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:39:35
content:
  The Annex was a kind of VR not arcade? It was a building that had booths with Vives where you could jump and try things out. As far as I was aware, it was just for the platform itself and not say BeatSaber or whatever.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:41:21
content:
  that was the explanation given to me and 2 others. I didn't get to talk to the last one because it was hard to reach them due to some foreign exchange thing, which resulted in not being in the states period, despite originating from AZ


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:42:36
content:
  but I do know it involved living locations and those were the three states. Most of the team did come from AZ and CA.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:44:30
content:
  Whatever the full detail, it boiled down to that I was the only one in my state, and the cost of keeping me on board in addition to whatever additional mandate was needed wasn't worth it compared to the others. Other mentors were in IL if memory serves me well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:46:24
content:
  No hard feelings. Jazmin, the head of the support team, did ask me for assistance on some services still afterwards, since I wrote and hosted the support team app the team members used.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:47:27
content:
  eh... all support members were given HFC to hand out to new users when they got their wallet systems setup before the money tree became a thing, and I wasn't requested to return it so...


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:48:46
content:
  naw. the HFC was a stablecoin. 100 HFC to 1 USD. Dumb lifecycle, though. Purchased with ETH, sold as USD. Can't be swapped.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 20:49:56
content:
  and this was during the era where 80% of the people in HiFi were die-hard crypto fans... so trading ETH for HFC, but not being able to keep the crypto as crypto... when HiFi's systems were backboned by their own blockchain... very weird.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 23:24:32
content:
  The mentor ticket system is still being worked on. From what I understand they ran into issues with the initial deployment, the backend has been redesigned and we're in the process of working out the UI for the in-game facet. We got a lot of feedback about it being hard to split time between monitoring the discord and being in game so we wanted the basic ticket management to be something that was on platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 23:26:46
content:
  Yeah, I'd massively prefer that flow. The user should be initiating a mentor session. Helps to not have to navigate the weird ambiguity.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 23:34:02
content:
  That's actually one of the reasons I try to host the mentor library sessions rather than do MTC hops. It gets a reasonable amount of new user traffic, they join, I can do the whole 'hi welcome to the library, are you finding everything you need?' customer service mode rigermarole and get them set up or just let them interact in a chill session for a bit.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 23:38:58
content:
  I honestly just want better performance profiling tools in the engine. I will show people how to optimize but without giving them some metric to look at it all comes off as arbitrary rules or pedantic and esoteric rants.


type: message
date: 2022-05-31 23:41:38
content:
  There are also hidden things that are hard to notice when not running a headless and watching its cpu spike when joining with your own avatar.

  For example generating meshes for lightnings >_>
   They are still calculated when the seed changes, even when all the slots are disabled...


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 00:48:09
edit_date: 2022-06-01 00:58:29
content:
  1. I don't know what Tower Unite is or care about it, but I'm sure it's not relevant. 

  2. I understand you just became a mentor, therefore anyone expressing the objective fact, and yes it is objective fact, that the mentor program serves no practical purpose, is going to upset you.  So anything you say or opinion your have in defense of it, is invalid.  You're not an objective participant.  It's disingenuous. 

  3.  The community doesn't need special snowflakes with entitlement to help itself.  If you're in the community, then just help other when they ask.  You don't need a special badge or title to do that.  And all it does is inflate peoples people egos when in reality your just unpaid and the majority is UNSKILLED labor.

  4. You don't make people who are not under your employ the forward facing extension of your company. People who are not  vetted or trained.  It is a liability.  It's presented as "official"  and when one of you guys asks a new user if they are single or if they will send feet  pics or other degenerate bullshit.   You're hurting the platform.   You're making other users look bad and and leave.  

  When you start arguing with a new user because they don't want an avatar you try to give them, you are hurting the platform.   When you start following people instance to instance and mobbing them you're hurting the platform.  

  5.  No one is saying that Neos shouldn't be community oriented.  We are saying that mentors are not necessary because THERE IS A COMMUNITY.  This is not rocket science, why grasp the core concept is beyond me. 

  6. MENTORS ARE NOT MODERATORS.   Neos.  Doesn't need moderators.  Moderation is done by hosts.  People liable for their own instances.  Moderators should not be seen or heard. and they definitely should not be using their community accounts for official business.  They should also be paid and trained employees that can be fired at a whim, so they don't get drunk with power.   Period.

  7. Everything I have stated about mentors or moderators.  Is from objective professional analysis from people with more experience than you and I am going to assume alarger amount of experience in years then you have even been alive.  Both in the VR space and Social virtual world spaces.   So disagree all your want.  Having an opinion doesn't mean your opinion is not blatantly wrong.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 00:50:05
edit_date: 2022-06-01 00:58:36
content:
  And the reason Neos stopped development is because instead of hiring professionals and headhunting people they took on volunteer developers from the community who threw a temper tantrum.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 00:53:29
content:
  Neos continues it's slow player decline. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/850183380850180146/981359702405419058/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 00:55:41
content:
  Knowing how  Neos actually performs I would say that the vast bulk of those monthly numbers is people who have logged in for a couple hours and never returned.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 00:59:51
content:
  It's not all mentors obviously but there are enough creeps in with it that its better to just axe the whole thing


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:04:28
content:
  The funny part the majority of the user base fucking hates the mentors.  The East Asian communities are literally the majority of the player base


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:09:48
content:
  ... well, I'm not a mentor, nor do I really want to be one. I see the role as a case of needing to adhere to responsibility of the role and its requirements. Any changes to it, or moderation of the role itself... I wouldn't know, but equally speaking, I also haven't had much of an issue


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:11:44
content:
  well... alright, then since everyone else has more of an understanding of what is going on, who is in charge of the mentor system and considering the lack of action with the tickets, has it been brought up with the individual?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:12:42
content:
  Have you tried probably prime? He's one of the more... Brash team members, but very politely brash, if you know what I mean?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:13:43
content:
  That's more what I mean... if it was truly unorganized, then the mentor role would exist... everywhere, since anyone can claim the role. It has to obviously be appointed somehow and by someone...


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:13:45
content:
  Name them.  At this point that needs to be brought into the light.  Pedophilia isn't a fetish its monstrous and a fucking crime


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:14:42
content:
  Very politely, but beneath that politeness there's a more no-nonsense, "had enough of it, go" kind of attitude.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:16:24
content:
  That's not what organized means.  Mentors are assigned a roll, have no oversight, no repercussions, no training, and no quotas.  They are literally not organized.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:17:47
content:
  well, I get the role itself is not organized in what it is supposed to do, but I was more trying to find the higher up of their role, if you will. If the program is that much of an issue, and tickets are going unanswered, then addressing the one who appoints the mentors would be the next goal in my book


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:18:59
content:
  Because I think its anyone who has administrative powers can assign it.  So basically the dev team.  i.e. people who shouldn't even be involved in that program to begin with


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:19:20
content:
  Then go to probable prime. I don't think he's the type that will tolerate that. He's the "please kindly leave sir or I will have to call security" type :P


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:21:55
content:
  okay, now we're making progress. So, if any developer can assign the role, then yeah... that'd explain quite a lot about why the role is so out of control. In fact... I dare say that might explain why the tickets aren't being addressed: whoever is supposed to address mentor related tickets might not exist or people don't want to or remember who they assigned as the mentor. That could explain the situation a bit better


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:23:50
content:
  And to me it looks like something making an excuse for shitty people who should be taking it seriously


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:24:57
content:
  So we're like, digging up the archives of people who were thrown in a database who may or may not have changed over that time period, and then wanting to report them based on that information?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:25:06
content:
  Apparently there were f-lists involved, see if they have a link. I'd virus scan it first knowing him :V


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:25:44
content:
  All I asked was to name the person who is a mentor with pedophilia listed as a fetish in their profile


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:27:46
edit_date: 2022-06-01 01:32:10
content:
  1. I'm stating that tower unite, a similar type of game, is a mess and shares similarities with neos and other things

  2. I have not become a mentor yet, and it is not objective fact, it is a complete opinion.
  And I literally agreed with half of your opinion, clearly you did not read what I said. I stated that I think mentors should be for more complicated things, and as such, less easy to get into, and as such I probably wouldn't be a mentor, which would be fine. It is not being disingenuous, and I literally stated I probably would not be part of it. My defense of it does not involve me being a part of it.

  3. It has nothing to do with special snowflakes, and teaching people is not unskilled labor, but I definitely see what kind of person you are if you just throw those around as a way to supposedly disarm/ignore anything
  4. If mentors are asking new users for feet pics they shouldn't be mentors, plain and simple.

  And forcing them to take an avatar, creeping on them, etc, goes against mentor and neos guidelines. There are ways to report mentors that should be used. All of what you're saying is not part of being a mentor, it is reportable offences.

  5. I stated that it's good the devs partake in the community.

  6. Neos does need moderators. Moderation is done by hosts, but there are people who are malicious and/or bad people who can cause issues across the whole platform, letting them continue to just hop between worlds and let the people deal with it themselves is a bad idea.
  7. Everything you have stated is not an objective fact, and the fact that you are painting it as such obviously shows your ego is pretty high to think that everything you say is suddenly above everyone and everything else. But go off I guess.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:29:29
content:
  I dunno, if someone's going around scamming people, etc. I feel like there should be some kinda moderation


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:30:21
content:
  There is clearly a toxicity problem going on. Please try to focus on the common issue, and weed out some of the sources of viral toxicity. For that, you will need evidence. Without evidence, even if admins wanted to do something they can't unless you provide evidence kind of like how a court of justice works.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:30:42
content:
  Okay then where is your proof to back it up, the facts that moderators and mentors need to be removed and should never be in this sort of thing no matter what


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:30:44
content:
  speaking from experience, some type of global moderation helps big time... but equally speaking, I do also agree it shouldn't be force imposed.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:31:56
content:
  Saying it's a waste of time to back up your facts is just as bad as saying "believe me it's true because I said so".


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:32:17
content:
  I have better things to do, then troll in a fucking telegram.   You always say people trolling when they bring this stuff up.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:35:29
content:
  So then people who do know how to use it might like to think about forming some sort of watchdog group or something


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:35:35
content:
  Yeah keep trying to deflect from the discussion at hand about one of the mentors listing pedophilia on their f-list


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:36:37
edit_date: 2022-06-01 03:17:19
content:
  Or Neos can its shit together and hire news devs and actually build a professional Trust & Safety team


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:37:07
content:
  The moderation team and the mentor team operate independently, but if you belive a mentor has been acting in violation of the platform's ToS, please do submit a moderation ticket.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:37:23
content:
  Dude pay attention.  There is no one asnwer tickets because the mentor program is literally just an unorganized mess with no vetting


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:37:56
content:
  Yeah, I agree here. There's a way to report it, a system to do so, and if neos mentors are acting against TOS, then use the system.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:38:18
content:
  which was the point.  People are leaving the p[latform because of mentors in like their first session


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:41:47
content:
  Who me? I didn't do anything. It was the security software, if it was a false flag I guess you will have to take it up with the vetting team who confirmed the legitimacy of a black mark against your name.

  Got another account? Too bad. Logix knows its you.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:42:51
content:
  There is literally no avenue for people getting creeped on to take other than leaving the platform entirely


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:43:19
content:
  and the only reason the people I know even reported it is because I had to tell them where to go because I was the one who onboarded them


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:48:14
content:
  you want to be inivte people into neos and tell them to be sure to record incase a mentor tries to sexually harass them?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:48:36
content:
  I'm... so confused... not to mention, can't even non-mentors join into new user sessions and the fact that new users have to opt into allowing others to join in?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:48:44
content:
  I mean you and squiggle specifically as you seem to be having your own problems with mentors? So record it.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:50:24
edit_date: 2022-06-01 03:23:18
content:
  Perhaps you should read the last hour and a half of chat before we continue.  I on boarded like 20-25 people aver the past 3 months, after that while they were on their own at least half of them (being women) had creepy and inappropriate actions with mentors and one was cyber stalked to each new instance they went to.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:50:26
content:
  I don't think it's as common as yall think, but you can pretend to be a new user if you want to see what mentors do


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:51:09
content:
  I've brought around 15 people onto neos in the last few months, and no, they were not all furries. About half were, half weren't.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:52:22
content:
  the point was the women who sought out mentors were made uncomfortable enough to leave the platform indefinitely


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:52:30
content:
  That's where I'm rather baffled. If you are onboarding so many people and you know this is an issue... then why not join into the session as the people who you onboarded? If a mentor did cause a problem, you'd not only know who but your own presence would most heavily discourage such. If the mentor is that much of an issue... then your own account would only give more to the point.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:55:07
content:
  :< I'm sorry to hear that. If she feels able to do so, please encourage her to submit a moderation report with her experience. That's unacceptable.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:55:33
content:
  Because believe it or not after I bring people in and show them the ropes they might log in again without me and have questions


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:56:17
content:
  and its not just people I have have been trying to bring in, its people I ask in other platforms who say they will never make a neos account again after dealing with mentors.  either because they were being creepy or because they were just smug


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:56:32
content:
  They definitely can be cliquey.

  We are distracted here because no one understands what the other is saying.

  No one said anything about furries being the facilitators, this is about mentors. If you genuinely consider that this could potentially be a problem and you care please get back on topic.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:57:21
edit_date: 2022-06-01 01:59:41
content:
  I've dealt many times with furries being cliquey
  But also not just furries
  But also I just said it wasn't just furries to avoid this whole disagreement, yet it seems to be an issue anyways.

  My whole point is that this stuff honestly should be reported and dealt with, and that it isn't something that is as common as it's being made out to be, yet it still needs to be dealt with.
  But trying to say it's always an issue, or such a huge issue that it's most mentors is incorrect.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:58:23
edit_date: 2022-06-01 01:58:37
content:
  There was no disagreement. Don't create a disagreement pre-empetively where there is none please or you will often end up manifesting that disagreement by the act of trying to avoid it.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:58:35
content:
  because If i have to fight with the conversation going off rails again, I am just going to go spend my free time building


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 01:59:27
content:
  Sorry, from the way everything was being presented, it seemed that most of the situations were people who were going after the new user experience cases. I mean, I am not arguing that the change in the situation is any better, but I just want to better understand what is going on. I agree a reform on the mentor system would be a great idea, especially if a role was given to specifically head them, even if it's just a pre-existing person


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:00:13
content:
  oh I know of a few people who are still in neos who constatly have issues with mentors and who those mentors are, but its not my place to make reports on their behalf.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:00:34
content:
  Quite honestly the best thing at this point is to just replace mentors with AI. It's a shitty solution but until the devs do something there is not much you can do other than try to find your own solutions.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:00:55
content:
  That's what I was doing, I was mentioning that it isn't just furries that I was introducing to negate any accusation of a furry bias


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:03:22
content:
  I feel they should not just be a clique, but be genuine people who want to help
  I feel they should not be the only introduction to the game


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:04:58
content:
  You are not a mentor and help people, you're already doing that job just be helpful and your already doing better than 80% of the mentors


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:05:58
content:
  the problem with that is community knowledge is great... but it won't help out things like documentation. Not to mention, having a lack of official support can be rather discouraging for those who find more comfort knowing the information they are getting is as close to an actual source as possible


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:06:50
content:
  It's something I learned over the years. When it comes to social interaction and relationships, if you pre-empt a pitfall which may or may not happen, you can start acting like it is already happening, and when you act like something is already the case in a social situation, that tends to become the reality. I don't know why, I guess people can just sort of pick up on it and mirror it or something? Who knows. Whatever it is, it's subconscious, because I've had people who started acting different towards me because they feared a situation that wasn't happening, I kept trying to re-assure them but I ended up unwittingly being an actor in the creation of the reality they were experiencing in their head. It came out of their head and into real life.

  I've been on both ends though. Just try to read situations for what they are and take things as they come without acting a certain way just because they might happen. Sometimes a good idea, usually not a good idea.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:07:22
content:
  Well yes, but I think mentors should be helpful to be honest. And the good experience I had personally with mentors is part of what encouraged me to stick with neos.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:11:05
content:
  I'd become a mentor just to shift that percentile a bit but I really don't have time, I'm too busy and when there is something new I could be busy with I have to really balance my priorities. I'll jump on if someone needs help and I'm free but spending a lot of time on Neos instead of doing other things just because someone might need help that day maybe? I need a guaruntee that someone does need help .-.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:12:26
content:
  I will also say this... volunteer based or not, any official positions, including the mentor system, will have a tug and pull relation on the community. Some will not be impacted, some will treat you like a mall cop, and others will treat you like a looming villian. People blindly just getting the title sours the importance for those who should have it and take their role responsibly.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:19:08
content:
  Well I can say by this point it looks pretty clear to me that the team is pretty much obligated to not kill NCR


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:23:30
content:
  He hasn't said that, but I did some reading. Turns out under the SEC's guidelines, NCR is 100% a security therefore Neos in general has a responsibility to uphold to investors.

  The white paper saying it is not a security or an investment does not count here. Seen a few case studies where cryptocurrencies said they were not investments and were not securities but the SEC does not see it that way.

  SEC's guidelines overrule that type of disclaimer.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:25:54
content:
  This is not a bad thing at all in this case, it's actually a very good thing, provided the team does not turn around and use something else for what they said they would use NCR for.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:37:12
content:
  It is being sold to Americans, and the SEC generally has a pretty far reach when it comes to cryptocurrencies and if not, the ESMA could easily follow suit.

  But I'd rather not talk about the jurisdictions and such when it comes to the facts and the facts are, it is considered a security in the country that pretty much controls the entire global economy. So it is a security.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 02:58:24
content:
  Skimming a document from the ESMA, so far, looks like it may also qualify as a security and be able to enjoy the benefits afforded to such financial instruments. That makes for a healthy Neos Metaverse Economy.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 03:07:00
content:
  Yup, looser language, but same thing. It is likely that NCR is kept nice and snug under the padded protections of the mainstream economy when it comes to this type of financial instrument. Good news for NCR. 

  So with the right steps we can have a safe and secure decentralised digital economy spring up in Neos with the rise of the Marketplace. Unfortunately / fortunately, it looks like putting into place the proper framework to protect purchases and digital assets with proof of ownership and such, so a person can ensure their products are not stolen or ripped, may be a requirement in general, NCR or no NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 03:07:53
content:
  Dear Gods am I really going to suggest this...

  I hate myself but, perhaps NFTs could be a method of ensuring that a person is the respective owner of a purchased digital good...?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 03:11:53
content:
  Especially if as a creator you are limiting the license the Neos only, its better to just do it like second life did


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 03:13:24
content:
  Blockchain NFT's actually don't do anything other than really function as receipt and ownership isn't implied unless stated in the purchase contract.  Over 80% of people who "own" NFTs don't actually own anything because all they bought was a encrpted weblink


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 03:32:21
content:
  They add cost and aren't even legally recognised for this use, so they're basically worse than useless.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 03:35:15
content:
  CMO is paid, the moderators were also trying to wrangle to get paid, but that would have been the existing ones demanding pay, rather than bringing new ones in in professional positions.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 04:22:42
content:
  Gosh, I do hope NCR in the current state doesn't become the only currency of the marketplace and stuff

  Unless they give you a way to convert it to cash transferring it in game, or change to a different block chain.

  Right now, with the fact that etherium has high gas fees and all, it's kind of a mess to use for smaller transactions


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 04:30:56
content:
  But the fundamental idea of your NCR being NCR needs to stay the same. 

  The idea is that people do not lose value via abandonment. Moving it to something like QANX would be ideal IF their claim holds true that their security is post quantum level secure and able to resist quantum computers.

  It's the most future proof move and has many advantages over fiat in that, as quantum computers grow, I can just run some quantum code on a quantum cloud server and steal all your fiat. 

  A financial platform focused on quantum security is ideal because if they go that route, I believe they may end up running blockchain ON a quantum computer itself. Quantum cloud servers and quantum virtual machines are slightly a thing becoming more of a thing.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 04:31:50
content:
  It's the only way to ensure security. If I understood quantum code I could literally go right now and make an 8 qubit quantum computer go do quantum computer stuff from a regular desktop PC.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 14:18:05
content:
  There are several universities using Neos as an edtech/research tool, e.g. university of sydney, czech technical university. also popular at oxford university. siemens is a listed partner on the website too


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 19:16:13
edit_date: 2022-06-01 19:58:30
content:
  I'm not sure I can gather the will to enter this time, just feels like treading water on a dead platform and a waste of time :(


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 22:58:50
content:
  Well I like the discussions here and they seem generally open minded if not abit rude and unfiltered


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:00:15
content:
  maybe the unfiltered aspect is also... kind of a benefit? Like, you know you are getting the raw details rather than some summary or whatever


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:01:39
content:
  Andrea  Could you KINDLY do something about this asshole, or should we consider this telegram also abandoned?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:11:04
content:
  Pretty sure we can consider this telegram channel abandoned. They've been missing for... over a week at least.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:26:55
content:
  This is the team that we're supposed to trust with the future of the project? They literally can not even handle a sub 1k user telegram channel.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:29:40
content:
  I am here mostly just out of obligation so that new users have at least someone to direct them to actual resources. It is embarrassing that this channel is listed as an official contact method.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:30:20
content:
  At least most of us actually use the platform and don't constantly cry out about crappy and pathetic investment opportunities based on a celebrity


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:33:45
content:
  Lol. We are still here and we can still login just fine. Until an official announcement comes in proclaiming a shutdown, I will just do whatever


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:37:51
content:
  I don't feel great harping on max, as they are clearly ESL, but it's still embarrassing that they are still here.


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:44:12
edit_date: 2022-06-01 23:44:22
content:
  Do you want a wall of text about the political nuance between the queer and gay movements, or do you want to dunk on the gay furries?


type: message
date: 2022-06-01 23:49:56
content:
  It's funny how sexuality can be a thing where the body is secondary. I have noticed that too, quite a few ace people finding sexual interest but only within vr. I'm curious as to how much that intersects with body dysmorphia.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 01:47:27
edit_date: 2022-06-02 01:56:48
content:
  I think its there's all sorts of stunted sexual development out there being reevaluated or enabled through it


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 16:21:42
content:
  I'm surprised how common it is. I call myself gay but I feel like I belong more on some kinda asexual spectrum and the amount of people in vr who can relate to the way I feel about things is stunning.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:05:50
content:
  Not exactly. The Neos Patreon had a 3k dip on the payments, but Froox had that number long before then. If you compare the dates and earnings, the Neos Patreon lost far more than 3k


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:11:21
content:
  It's only charged at the start of each month. New ones show up immediately while "losses" only show up at the next billing cycle AFAIK.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:13:08
content:
  yeah. It'll be a few more days to see that get fixed up when people remember when their cards expired or whatever


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:16:07
content:
  but if past months are worth reviewing, it doesn't seem people have been fixing that, at least with Graphtreon as the source


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:18:58
content:
  Assuming the patterns repeat, since the launch of the other patreon, the lost amount is more around $5.7k and continuing, but it is just the dawn of a new month so we'll see if the curves decide to go upward for once or not


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:26:02
content:
  on May 17th, the Neos patreon had ~$22k flat, a difference of little over half the reported difference. I'm not 100% saying that all funds that were lost for one went to the other, because that would have occurred far earlier.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:28:40
content:
  don't get me wrong, the charts do point that's when a full curve DID occur, but the projected losses aren't exactly mirrored as the other's gain. Even the number of patrons didn't really mirror over either, once again more or less being ~50% (~1700 -> ~1600 by May 31, with the other patreon only having 200 members currently)


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:35:32
content:
  I'm wondering if they've already starting lowering tiers for various services because it runs like crap for me now, it's incredibly slow to download anything.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:36:15
content:
  I haven't noticed any speed issues, but I won't argue the backend could use some love that is losing its opportunity for it


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:39:20
content:
  It took like 20 seconds to load just the images in my inventory for a folder with like 15 things in it.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:40:56
content:
  Neos has been on a decline of 100 additional users per month at the start of a new one. This happened for April and May, with June being no exception.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:42:10
content:
  that's why I compared the amounts BEFORE the dip, and by that metric, it isn't 200 or even close. Froox also lost some users as well in a similar dip, albeit at a lower number due to a difference in scale


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:49:37
content:
  I mean, if you want to add the 100 members lost to your argument and correspond it to Froox, then merely the act of existing is apparently the direct cause of loss of users at the end of every month, so much so that 100 realize this and leave.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:50:54
content:
  but whatever. Not like we have graphics showing this pattern every single time and with basically all patreons


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 22:59:07
content:
  "are you really, really about to pretend 170 is not close to 200, and that $4796 is not close to $3710, froox's peak earnings? "

  Right about... there.


type: message
date: 2022-06-02 23:24:58
content:
  Then they have the audacity to complain about funding and buybacks when they are the reason for the decline


type: message
date: 2022-06-03 01:01:53
content:
  doing alright. Rewriting my YUR fitness bridge to be friendlier for Neos and other services, tested my new avatar that was re-proportioned for better full body tracking, and tested the newer face tracking blendshapes that were a test of patience


type: message
date: 2022-06-03 02:37:40
content:
  Once I have the core stuff done, I will have the github updated for it. Currently doing a python run, but I plan to rewrite it in either C# or C++. Might go C# but run tests to ensure it runs fine with mono.


type: message
date: 2022-06-03 02:38:36
content:
  YUR devs did mention an update to the system so... not sure if the system will continue to work, but by then, they stated they are planning an official OSC system, so at that point, a websocket bridge can be used for that


type: message
date: 2022-06-03 02:59:19
content:
  In all fairness, I only made my project due to their lack of allowing data sharing in the first place. If they add official support that still offers the same information, then I can't really complain


type: message
date: 2022-06-03 04:11:27
content:
  honestly, if there was an easy way to share a desktop screen in Neos... it'd be usable, but far from perfect. I mean, you can already share files with each other


type: message
date: 2022-06-03 04:16:01
content:
  Well, simply put, not sure my office machine could run Neos without having a stroke. That and compared to the others, who have multiple access methods such as from a browser or mobile phones, it'd be hard to even consider that in any setting.


type: message
date: 2022-06-03 14:05:48
edit_date: 2022-06-03 17:02:01
content:
  ⚡️@BscNewhusky
   Just launched ⚡️

  Reliving $SiHusk's Past (220k+)
  Using the Deployer Utility inu

  Super Low cap potential moonshot Here with lots of promo from Dev Eli Shane + Minion Help + Moderator Girl

  💩https://poocoin.app/tokens/0xa462ac73c9d5783756c97f40684dc369940e6cc6

  TG https://t.me/NewHusky


type: message
date: 2022-06-05 15:48:52
content:
  Odd that no-one, even on Twitter, has mentioned that both BLFC Twitch channels have been banned so they're not streaming anything.


type: message
date: 2022-06-06 12:31:47
content:
  Is Ludwig just Max under a different account? Same style nonsensical posts, same questionable English, etc.


type: message
date: 2022-06-08 18:07:32
content:
  I have only just been able to register and login to my NEOS account, but I have been a PATREON supporter since early this year JAN/FEB.  How can I get my account to register my support and be credited for the extra space etc.?


type: message
date: 2022-06-10 15:24:53
content:
  https://www.facebook.com/zuck/posts/pfbid02kQ9HSq1jSuWWQchS65NAmyqTrRsXXHjYej1QJ8R8pqkiGTJAxidqcenkWWHW19pUl


type: message
date: 2022-06-12 05:23:51
content:
  Only reason I'd hold remote interest in buying NCR is to extend or expand my storage capacity on the cheap


type: message
date: 2022-06-12 08:35:12
edit_date: 2022-06-13 18:01:36
content:
  I think there are a lot of positive things about having the in-world economic system structured around a decentralized ERC20 token. Unlike Second Life and proprietary walled garden microtransaction economies, NCR isn't tethered to a single user account and can be moved to outside wallets and cold storage. It also means that the value persists regardless of the state of the Neos platform itself. I've seen a lot of concern about the gas prices of ETH which is valid, but I think a lot of those issues can be overcome by using internal ledgers, L2s, and sidechains. Post-ICO I also think a lot of volatility can be curbed through strategic sells and buybacks which gives NCR an organic spread that it floats between but also offers a lot of stability for content creators.


type: message
date: 2022-06-13 19:57:55
content:
  NCR always holding strong in bear market. People will realise it's a safe place to put their money for the next bull market


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 00:52:37
content:
  agreed, it would have been fine to come out and say that. but now they've created a big mess and an unfortunate deadlock situation because of miscommunication


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 10:52:18
edit_date: 2022-06-14 11:17:41
content:
  I don't blame Karel for being sparse with communication. Until there is some kind of resolution and announcement there really isn't much to say, and there is a history of people using anything he says against him.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 13:59:10
content:
  done new web page = marketing
  managing ncr price 
  paying bills and taxes (Andrea is employeed as you know) 
  building strategy behind the scene


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 14:10:49
content:
  I have no idea what Karel is doing, but it's certainly not anything like leadership. It's a lot like empty posturing and corporate larping. But talk is cheap, I'll just keep doing what I can for the community.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 14:16:10
content:
  Ego tripping on his own supply, with no follow through on the projects he actually has sole management of. Uselessly fracturing the public image, this very chat is an apt metaphor. Spun up and unmaintained as the difficulty outstripped his apparent ability to organize.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 14:28:15
content:
  They are already doing their jobs. The services are still up. Support continues to be offered to those who use the platform. Critical security bugs are being patched. The organization, which is at this point entirely volunteer run, continues to provide for its users. It will continue to do that. The specific solidarity is obvious. Their jobs never were to do whatever Karel said, and now, they are taking steps to continue to do their jobs without Karel getting in the way.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 14:41:03
content:
  There have been multiple bug fix releases since the start of the work stoppage to address high impact issues for the current userbase (you can find this in the dev log channel). There were also patches pushed to help support community events (such as the MMC and community conventions). I expect we will see other such efforts coinciding with the upcoming Neos Festa 4 as they run into the inevitable requirements for consideration.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 16:42:53
edit_date: 2022-06-14 16:43:13
content:
  I'm also queer. Don't forget the insidious effects of the gay agenda on my ability for rational and independent thought. 🙄


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:27:49
content:
  "I am unimpressed by your inability to provide meaningful criticism and find your recourse to out group signifiers tiresome." Sorry, I know analogy can be a hard thing to process.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:35:08
content:
  It's so much of a joke, that when bHaptics finally released their video from a sponsored event they held last year, they don't even link to it.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:36:39
content:
  Neos would be fine without fur. At that time, Neos will be more developed than Meta (Facebook), VrChat


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:37:35
edit_date: 2022-06-14 17:39:29
content:
  eh... Meta, maybe, but it's hard to compare with VRC. The scope between the two are too different, even though its popularity shouldn't be ignored


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:41:00
edit_date: 2022-06-15 16:43:10
content:
  ...hate to break it to ya, but uh...
  Well, most of the stuff was made by furries, and most systems have been as well.
  Even then, one demographic doesn't really cause a direct hindrance, because if that was the case, VRC would be kind of fucked in that regard.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:42:21
content:
  Your rhetorical laziness is not a nuanced argument. You may have nuanced arguments, however 'lol self-important groupthink' is not that :P


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:42:40
content:
  not to mention, going back to a statement that might as well be on a 90s YakBak: "If everyone who is SOOOO invested into Neos actually signed in, even maybe half of the people here... the usercount would actually be near its highest point for the first time in awhile."


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:45:39
content:
  The Normies are definitly leaving this telegram group in about a day or an hour after seeing those conversations


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:47:34
content:
  Unmoderated hellscape that it is. I am sorely upset that this is how any part of Neos decides to represent itself.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:49:58
content:
  not to mention, most normal people don't care about the financial systems, let alone speculation of it. That's why if you are going to compare to VRC, maybe ask around the people who are on it... or just check its developer messages on the subject.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:51:06
content:
  that isn't to say the current system, again, is doomed to full failure, but one detraction of people staying, assuming a download from the website, is usually the discovery of how the system works and interest being lost heavily, particularly if they came from VRC to see how things worked


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:53:20
content:
  well... that and a tutorial focused on creator systems, and not about... actually using the platform


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:53:59
edit_date: 2022-06-14 17:54:15
content:
  It doesn't reflect well on Karel and Andrea to create this and then basically abandon it without a word.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 17:55:12
content:
  Ironically lack of clear communication has been an issue with every part of the Neos team for years, it's like some sort of curse at this point.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:06:01
content:
  We could benefit signifigently from an experienced pr and community management consultation, definitely. Without getting plugged in on twitter or discord it's hard to even know there are community events going on.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:09:23
content:
  can't really speak on their behalf, but the primary goal of a mentor is to... provide volunteered support? Being a spokesperson isn't exactly part of that.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:11:05
content:
  A major solution, for example, would just have the tutorial have a dynamic poster that checks if an image exists on the website storage (or text file with content). Then, if present, use that data to present the poster for an event going on. This way, new users can get direct information about something going on, without having to re-submit a world update every time.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:11:48
content:
  Such dynamic item could even be made an essential item, so that world builders or just regular users can get this information and place it within their worldscapes. No additional work needed.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:12:18
content:
  It is, though we do organize and hold workshop events, which we do announce in advance. However, those announcements require you to be plugged in on discord or twitter. I view this as a failure of the main website TBH, and I'd like to see an in-game solution for communicating events.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:14:53
content:
  So in other words, you are against creating self-managing concepts so that you can let a system work for you?


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:17:09
content:
  ahuh... so in short, when I give a small explanation on an idea, showing it is actually possible and could function, something that this group chat often tends to lack, it's somehow an issue, one of which you have to point out.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:17:54
content:
  One of the things I really like in VRchat is their curation of worlds by seasonal theme. Their seasonal contests get top billing right in the in-game UI. We have that in a limited sense with the MMC tab, but I'd really like to see that done in a more dynamic way that could increase discoverability.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:20:03
content:
  Hmm... could world spheres' destinations be adjusted via logix? If so, a basic arrangement system could be made to allow easier adjustment without having to do direct resubmission. I only bring up the 'systematic' solutions simply because of how long some updates tend to take, so having an easier "let the system" do it approach would be just a starting point, but also with less excuses involved


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:22:30
content:
  Yeah, they are just URIs. Wd could build something like this, but it would require everyone go and use it. Things that aren't built into the client are always going to have an uptake hurdle and prevent smooth first experiences.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:25:07
content:
  I can, in fact, give a new user a bunch of public folders of curated collections, but that doesn't help the people who aren't given that, nor the ones who prefer to explore on their own.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:25:21
content:
  hmm... yeah, thinking about it, the bHaptics event would have been smoother if it had its own tab thing or whatever. If the client could be made to support it, it'd be nice to have like a dedicated 'events' tab, not specifically on worlds, but its own thing. This way, you can adjust the content on it akin to how the facets work, creating almost like a webpage of sorts that can be customized just for the event.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:26:37
content:
  it was in regards to a discussion of accessibility functions within VR, started from a petition request to have Meta include information when a game has captions or other accessibility options available, some of which Steam already talks about.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:27:31
content:
  That's when things like the mute helper, one handed controls, and the like came into discussion with Neos. However, when asked where were they, I realized the Wiki itself doesn't have a dedicated space for such, so there was no link to pass along, only explainations


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:31:54
content:
  yeah.... especially when I found out thgat my boss, after the High Fidelity VR venture, landed a job with Owlchemy Labs as an Accessibility Product Manager. I was very impressed.


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:34:35
content:
  I would like to see an accessibility pass sooner than later. I'll tackle a wiki write up for the mute helper later today, even if it doesn't solve the discoverability issue entirely it's an official enough tool that i figure it should have one >.>


type: message
date: 2022-06-14 18:59:09
content:
  a big one that was previously absent on VRC even, until the last update, is still no vignette option for people who suffer from motionsickness. I know a handful of people who have avoided Neos and VRC in VR because of it, and only went to the latter because of its inclusion


type: message
date: 2022-06-15 22:40:26
edit_date: 2022-06-15 22:40:38
content:
  It's that board meeting, that is no longer happening, where Frooxius and Karel, the team discussed the progress and future and those invited were in the role of advisors at most


type: message
date: 2022-06-15 22:45:59
content:
  Doesn't LinkedIn allow you to just put more or less anything on the profile or do some companies require validation when someone attempts to make a reference?


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 00:51:18
content:
  If previous information is to be believed, they're now on the Board of Directors, due to an updated linked in. Along with an entire twitter thread of usual information that mostly everyone who knows what is going on was aware of, just brought out to the public


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 02:28:32
content:
  wasn't it you who was keeping tabs on people's information and what not? This chat is too much of a revolving door to keep pace on everything


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 04:46:02
edit_date: 2022-06-16 07:09:02
content:
  The devs are upset that I disagreed with removing the CEO and co-founder of Neos and they'll do anything to try and paint me as a bad person for that - including all of the typical character assassination tropes like being called a Nazi.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 05:17:24
edit_date: 2022-06-16 07:09:40
content:
  At some point we'll know what's going on with Neos and then we can move forward accordingly, but in the meantime let's not call people names!


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 12:15:58
edit_date: 2022-06-16 12:17:23
content:
  You've been using the language of the alt-right in just about every one of your diatribes as of recent. I am frankly unsurprised this happened, and unsurprised you are attempting to pin it on 'the devs'. 🙄

  You have an image problem. Turning that around is going to be hard, you have a lot of work to do and you're going to have to deprogram yourself from your conspiracy mindset to even begin it.

  I wish you luck.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:08:18
content:
  This is ironically the most fascist thing I have seen in here.  "Incorrect believes"  Something tells me most of you have zero clue what fascism actually is and are using it as a boogy man in some disgusting attempt to..I don't know?  Feel righteous?


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:08:48
content:
  People  that accuse people of randomly being alt right based on nothing are the worst kind of people.  1.  You're actually downplaying the very real danger and very real problem of white supremacy and fascism.  And basically crying wolf because someone hurt your feelings over the fact that into a fandom that is essentially a glorified chuckee cheese cosplay.  2. Just because someone mocks you, hurts your feelings or makes you feel bad doesn't make them a fascist or a Nazi.  As someone who has spent the better part of a decade working with organizations like the IDF as a volunteer and associates non-profit watchdog groups that deal  white supremacy and fascist radicalization on the internet, I can thoroughly say this entire debate I have seen no fascist rhetoric or alt-speak.   And honestly sources that really amount to nothing more than hearsay,


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:09:33
content:
  As someone who pretty much does not have a large extended family because of the actions of ACTUAL FASCISTs.  This behavior disgusts me


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:10:22
content:
  No one is trolling you, calm down.  And no you shopuld all be very upset with someone being doxxed even if you don't like them


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:14:22
content:
  Are you implying that I said that or contacted you in DM's? because I sure has hell did not, and if you falsly accuse me of that we can make it an actual legal matter.   And move forward with it.  Otherwise don't play that game with me.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:15:18
content:
  Well I had to speak up because people in here will literally take that as me doing in in the context


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:15:42
content:
  Okay gang let’s take it down a notch. We’ve all been pretty fired up and said a lot of inflammatory things myself included, but in the end it’s not really going to solve anything. I think it’s pretty clear that both sides have a very different idea of what Neos should be and it’s okay to agree to disagree. We’ll have answers one day and then we can figure things out from there.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:17:07
content:
  Obviously we don't because it was a non-issue, but if someone were to do doxx me or make false accusations you better believe its going to full legal battle.  I don't tolerate the secondlife drama stuff.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:18:20
content:
  I honestly don't care about the person that  reached out to you, and was not even talking about that.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:23:50
content:
  If it is confusing, jsut hand wave it away, because chances are its something absolutely stupid and illagoical anyway


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:25:44
edit_date: 2022-06-16 15:33:30
content:
  I’m pretty open about my real life identity so some random Twitter account pasting my page-1 google results and chat logs from a public telegram doesn’t bug me. I’ve had to deal with the worst that 4chan and kiwifarms have to offer with legitimate death threats in the past so somebody pasting my LinkedIn isn’t a big deal. Kind of a weird thing to do but nobody cares judging by the lack of engagement with those posts. 🙂


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:30:33
content:
  where do you think young white men get radicallized in to shooting up a black church? and 8chan is infamous for having child porn and zoophile boards.  And was birthed out of "gamergate" when it was banned from 4chan.  Like its literally a cesspool


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:31:47
content:
  I wouldn't go near that site unless I was on a secure VPN and actively doing work for a watchdog agency


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 14:48:18
edit_date: 2022-06-16 14:49:05
content:
  Karel 2 weeks since last online???? Holder need news. Anything!!! We have Nazi and furry now. Website and whitepaper did not raise price and all roadmap is abandon.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:47:05
content:
  weird. My junk server I slapped together had about 7 users and no one had any issues, and that was using a dual core and only 8GB of ram, and it wasn't even DDR4


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:49:18
content:
  no, it does, but I think you are exaggerating a bit. Half the people there had GTX970s (the "nvidia loves us" editions), and everyone was fine


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:50:43
content:
  if that's the case, pretty much the other social VR platforms are in equal hot water once you begin the approach to double digits in user count. That's just the case of user content often not being optimized


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:52:12
content:
  well, admitively, VRC does handle higher user counts better. Was at a 50 user world party and that's when things got really bad, and I can't even begin to think on how Neos would handle that without culling support


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:53:30
content:
  but when the user count is around 10 or so, the performance dip isn't as bad. Both sides will always boil down to the content in the scene, both the world and avatars, and most of the time, the avatars are the issue.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:54:10
content:
  Saying that as something who uses both a Valve Index and a Quest, both PC linked and standalone native


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:57:29
content:
  I agree VRC has some benefits, but Neos is also the only place where I had 144hz actually work. Part of it was due to older VRC builds not taking full advantage of multi-threaded operations, and admittedly, when Neos had people pulling out Logix chains, that made performance melt.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:58:06
content:
  that being said, if one were to consider where to host larger user counts in a single world, I won't even pretend Neos can compete


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 20:59:22
content:
  however, the scale of which performance does dip is only steeper to a point for Neos earlier than VRC, but for certain usercounts, like under 10, I haven't had much of an issue, nor have others I know. We mostly wear optimized avatars, so that's a possibility


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:02:56
content:
  I guess it depends on the system as well. My server was running Ubuntu 20.04, so maybe the lower OS overhead helped out a bit, despite the Linux operating of a headless server sometimes being janky


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:07:53
content:
  Despite how many younger people spin up their own Minecraft servers, I will agree that for Neos, headless operation isn't ideal for mass users, even if partnerships with hosting companies was made to help make them easier to spin up


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:08:03
content:
  (this was attempted with HiFi in partnership with Digital Ocean, but one can argue it wasn't supported very well and by that point, I was no longer onboard so the support team didnt' have their server guru anymore)


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:10:11
content:
  There was/is definite stockholm syndrome going on with performance on Neos. People will claim performance is "fine" for them, I'll check their FPS and they'll be at like 23fps. It's absurd.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:12:24
content:
  I'd normally agree, but whereever I want, people saw my previously terrible performance numbers and they were in the 20s or even 10s. However, some tweaking has made it so I can usually have about 30 FPS in a room with 15 or so users, assuming again that people aren't wearing an internal server within their own avatar


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:14:34
content:
  if that's the case, then VRChat is just as bad of a shithole, because while Neos is up and down, VRC is consistent, and that number for me has never been a good one


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:15:17
content:
  That being said, I am restrictedin my avatar, because when I finish whatever I am working on, I then have to make a Quest rendition, at least back when I was on VRC


