# messages

type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:42:40
content:
  If froox decides to rebuild from the ground up, I'm going to ditch "neos" in favor of whatever ends up being made


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:43:59
content:
  Yup. More or less same here. That or I'll just go to a platform with basically equal building functions, and just spin up a Neos flavored UI remix for things like the inspector and what not.


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:44:32
content:
  I came here for frooxs creation.
  That too, but nothing like that exists as of yet. I'm waiting... But...


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:45:37
content:
  Overte is the closest with similar freedoms. It's been getting refined over a long period of time, and I've been curious to see how things have progressed


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:50:43
content:
  Yea, seams nice. I have not seen it yet but i feel like what made neos so exceptional was the way you could drag&drop everything in.


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:54:08
content:
  Agreed. Neos's focus on easier user creation is a major criteria. I'm not sure Overte solved those at all... though it might also be that no one has asked for a solution.
  A large hurdle is that there is no cloud storage from what I understand... so it'd have to operate in a sort of Mastodon approach


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:54:40
content:
  And that you are able to actually work on every detail of the game while being inside of it. Modify the avatar of a new player or yourself, show off some video, pictures, models you work on


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:56:03
content:
  yeah. Asset viewing in the Overte engine I recall was doable, but avatars are handled as their own entity type entirely, rather than as an in-world object, so it isn't possible at the same level. However, attachments, could technically work


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 19:59:08
content:
  I haven't dabbled with the newer systems, but I know the core engine is open source and customizable... so it's just a case of finding ways to recreate certain features. For example, if pasting a YouTube URL, having something recreate the process of making a media player recreation


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 20:00:31
content:
  I mean from what i see you have really good and easy control of the stuff that runs and a nice debug and content access of any kind... but people already think neos is complicated


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 20:02:00
content:
  yeah. In a sense, it'd need a Linux Mint coat of paint to remedy some issues... or at least aspire to get as close as you can with SteamOS (the current one, not the... older one...)


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 21:44:50
content:
  At this point, the feature distances are only different by accessibility, with Neos holding the highest accessibility by far to the advanced features.


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 23:05:02
content:
  Funny, considering many people find neos very difficult to get into, mostly because of all the tools and items and behaviour with cloud storage and lazy loading and rigging an avatar... ^^


type: message
date: 2023-04-17 23:47:00
content:
  Those people also never actually had to set up an avatar ever. They just used prefabs or public avatars from "totally legit" sources.


type: message
date: 2023-04-18 08:24:02
edit_date: 2023-04-18 13:48:18
content:
  well said, not sure if you seem fine with that as others seem not. I mean it was sold to users with the very intent of fluxuating in value, but people seem to after-the-fact expect it to be as stable as a US dollar here... except tbh its really just the go-to lazy argument against it

  When I first got my ncr part of the fun was its fluxuating value, I kind of found that appealing, where you give it to someone and hey, who knows it might be worth more tomorrow. 

  Froox himself said to think pf it as an investment in Neos future. Those were his words. I think it should still be considered as such and treated as Neos own native currency. Not sure why some find that such a hostile concept


type: message
date: 2023-04-20 19:07:40
content:
  I mean, its probably total overkill for this usecase, but a youtube downloader is also part of jdownloader 2


type: message
date: 2023-04-23 07:25:01
content:
  already here less than 12 hours, and already the moon phrases come out... It's so hard to know if people are legit serious, are indeed that mindless, or just another aimless bot clicking on 'join X group' and somehow the Neos website has been added to some roster list of 'known places to suck money from'


type: message
date: 2023-04-23 07:28:39
content:
  Not helped by the fact that I'm still running into people claiming this "gem's" only luster is in the perceived situational joke it has become. Still, I march on...


type: message
date: 2023-04-23 07:34:33
content:
  welp, that's one way to turn the situation around... going from "This sucks" to "This is holarious" is the kind of emotional whiplash I needed tonight


type: message
date: 2023-04-23 09:42:37
content:
  Seriously, as much as I don't like VRChat, but going on about fandoms within a platform in a derogatory manor isn't exactly setting the best example, especially with how sensitive this group's discussions are with the blame game. Let's try NOT to fuel that fire, please?


type: message
date: 2023-04-25 07:41:55
content:
  There is functionality missing on the website, that is currently only accessible inside of Neos itself


type: message
date: 2023-04-25 07:49:03
content:
  much of the site is in shambles. The maintainers don't honestly care, yet will gladly put up a show and dance of "Yes we do!" the musical with about as much of an effect of one: just a happy feeling and no solutions to current problems


type: message
date: 2023-04-25 16:26:16
edit_date: 2023-04-26 03:05:33
content:
  I am a member of the MEXC listing team, faster to provide you with a faster listing process and lower listing fees.


type: message
date: 2023-04-27 21:54:35
content:
  I enjoy necromancy as much as the next person: Consider the interesting reality that the merging of cyberspace and real space within the AR paradigm represents. In litteralizing hyper-reality we also drive the shrinking of the world similar to the invention of air travel. As geographical barriers fall, it seems inevitable that ideology will drive social selection.

  I've been re-reading Too Like the Lightning and I am once again contemplating the notion that fan culture can map onto the idea of the bash'. Though with unfortunately far less explicit discussion of Enlightenment philosophers. One wonders: do the social dynamics of virtual communities in the now give us a glimpse of how things might shake out when we go through yet another mainstream travel or telepresense revolution?


type: message
date: 2023-04-28 21:22:55
content:
  Unless someone's nice to me: then I want it to go up so I can buy their NCR and give them a better deal


type: message
date: 2023-04-29 00:36:23
content:
  Heya! So, I'm trying to log into my Neos account but I forgot my password but there's no forgot password link. I still have my original email from when I verified my email tho


type: message
date: 2023-04-30 23:20:48
edit_date: 2023-04-30 23:21:13
content:
  @malooniac is there any plan to fix the certificate on api.neos.com as it does error  525 handshake fail but the old api that’s api.neos.com redirects from still works neosvr-api.com/api/sessions

  Just enquiring for information


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 11:50:09
edit_date: 2023-05-01 15:51:29
content:
  Hi @LinkaIndustries  Generating a certificate for this subdomain is a little complicated and since it would require time and resources, we don’t currently plan on updating it. Hope that clears it for you.☺️


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 13:04:49
content:
  I have to say that i have to be on Lucaedr's side in this. To configurate an automated certificate generation... everyone gets that done. I don't see why this would be an issue. The programmer team that could not access this, build a workaround in the software they could access. So this is inability or being lazy. I don't think this should be an issue.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 13:06:07
content:
  Thanks for some clarification on the issue, since the cert is was about to expire as it stands anyways. And uses a broad *.Neos.com cert validating any subdomain but only has the main TLS cert ending in 12 days  the issue seems to be cert is there chain cert 1 and 2 but missing root certificate. 

  So when the main one runs out for Neos.com in 12 days will that be renewed ?


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 13:12:27
content:
  should one worry about their data snapping out of existence? at least if it is no longer able to be accessed, that would effectively be the same as 'gone'


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 13:55:54
edit_date: 2023-05-01 14:01:42
content:
  12 days is really low. Businesses usually renew a certificate long before it is that close to expiration


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 14:44:13
content:
  Programmer team does have access, the generation is done in Azure backend. They just didnt bother to renew it.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 14:46:44
content:
  Well, if thats the case you have to do wonder why they would take the more complicated way, seams strange, but as i don't know the whole story i guess i have to wait for that answer until it is given.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 14:52:11
edit_date: 2023-05-01 16:24:40
content:
  Out of spite and to manufacture a problem to blame it on me as usual. Not surprising or something to meditate upon.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 14:54:50
content:
  I see. Well if true, its petty. I guess its one way to force the issue in some way, in the end its just a question of time before it collapses after so much time of total standstill. I really hope that something will move soon, maybe in a better way then that.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 14:59:38
content:
  Yes, you are actually right, that is pretty much what it is. I definitly would prefer a different thing happening, but after so much time, it might be just the only resonable solution.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 15:02:22
content:
  The thing i have learned in the IT field over the year... a system that at least works to a point, even if its slow, prone to failure, unstable, inconvenient and time consuming... it is not changed


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 15:04:59
content:
  I don't like this kind of problem solving, but i think Karel is exhausted from all that infighting. There is a child on the way and the programming team is sabotaging if what he says is true. BUT it doesn't look like he has his own programming team or an actual plan to continue that project (sorry karel, i mean a plan that actually goes forward and makes progress)


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 16:26:45
content:
  Karel  is still responsible for minting NCR, right? Some people didn't receive NCR when minting. How can they contact him? Is he a scammer?


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 17:33:46
content:
  Or does it mean that the cloud files get deleted? But local storage mod exists so I guess I have to save things there now


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 18:25:58
content:
  It means the linked references will no longer be secured, specifically for https and other secured communications in a very oversimplified way


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 18:27:25
content:
  So the website, for example, will be dead, if only due to modern browsers frowning upon http communication and usually throw warnings


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 18:37:02
content:
  Yup. This also means the only official site NCR is mentioned on, including hosting the white paper, will also be gone.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 18:43:27
content:
  Oh well, no more moon, only dead certificates and a person paying for servers no one can access anymore.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 23:00:33
content:
  Is there already a neos replacement that allows you to do the same things in it that I don't know of


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 23:02:04
content:
  depends on what features you are wanting.
  If you just want basic socializing, ChillOut or VRChat.
  If you want to keep developement in-world, Overte or Vircadia.
  This is assuming the function of VR being included, natively.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 23:02:53
content:
  There is Somnium but... I haven't tried it, despite it being part of the Virtual Reality Blockchain Alliance.


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 23:05:00
edit_date: 2023-05-17 18:09:50
content:
  It's actively maintaned by a dedicated group of people, and the source code can be downloaded at anytime. They also pledged to never go down the crypto route, despite its pedigree


type: message
date: 2023-05-01 23:06:06
content:
  I 'think' Vircadia went down the crypto route, but they have the bonus of having a webbased rendering system


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 12:41:18
content:
  lets just assume,
  after the dev team is in charge and the project got bankrupt within 5 years, who will be the last one to stand?


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 13:13:01
content:
  not our problem
  two years is a long time, if that was a solution it would be happening, at least a year ago


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:26:46
content:
  also... why is that that 99% of the time there's an explosion of messages here, it's filled to the brim with constant 3 word messages.
  There is shift enter on PC... and I think mobile just accepts the return as 'new line' without submitting unless typing with an actual keyboard


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:32:34
content:
  anyway, here are my 5 cents on the matter (which is worth just about a single NCR at this point):
  People seem to forget that the main NeosVR Patreon's value has been going downhill for... a long while, ever since all this drama started. Personal patreons were created, but they're just that: personal, often without a full productive goal. The thing is, the NeosVR Patreon is... just that: The NeosVR Patreon. Despite that is who receives the funding at this time, it isn't the Karel Patreon.

  Should things be resolved, It'd be a safe guess that ownership of that Patreon would shift over to the new CEO for financial management, given that it is a Patreon for the organization, not the individual (but the money has to go somewhere). It'd be questionable if ETH acceptance would remain depending on further outcomes.


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:41:15
content:
  I don't think froox as a ceo is a good idea. Its like me being ceo. There are developers that can be both obviously, but i have yet to met a good one that is. Realitity being that being a CEO is so much different from being a dev and has a completly different  group of people that do it. But i think there are a lot of CEO's that would fit the bill. To say "none can be found" is a lie. It just needs to be someone who does it as a job^^


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:44:44
content:
  My point being... you can buy a CEO... as in someone who just knows what he is doing. Doesn't need to be a visionary neesesarily


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:45:43
content:
  But neos can't just be made by a group of random programmers. Neos was made as a vision of a person and for all the help that we can give froox with programming parts he wants, noone can make the product "just like that"


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:48:43
content:
  Yea... i am with that. At this point it doesn't even mather even more how it goes forward. If it breaks, it breaks. Perhaps that would finally break the stale mate and make the different people free to finally go forward with their life and projects


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:52:04
content:
  Hey, people are unique. There are people that maybe can do both, i just never met them. But i can tell you what programmers have in common that are good in my opinion. They are concentrated on a single problem at a cost of "less important" things. They don't care that much for money, but the challenge, the idea. They are fine in a closed room for month, communication with team, banks, doing boring things every month? Nope


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:53:18
content:
  The thing is: is the fact the 'CEO' position of Neos being the management of finances a choice? In otherwords, could anyone else be able to manage the finances that is already part of the team?


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:53:58
content:
  The real infight isn't about finances, even if it looks like that on the surface. Its about the ownership of the code


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:54:14
content:
  Froox sees it all as his child, he doesn't care "who owns" the code, its his vision, his heart blood


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:55:53
content:
  But its a product that has nearly no worth as a product. Without froox that very product is just a big, horrible pile of code.


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 18:57:13
content:
  What baffles me is why liquidation hasn't been put on the table...
  Just put the code, as it stands, as the version both parties get. As both parties are entitled to 50% of the company, just saying both own the code as it stands means neither party really gets more than the other.


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 19:01:36
content:
  So yea, in my opinion it boils down to this. I don't think karel is wrong saying that the code is company property, but that also means that froox isn't patching new things in, because that would be like paying in the shared bank account with your EX


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 19:05:44
content:
  Hey, i can only speculate. I have absolute no real inside. But if i was froox i would have used that time to do a rewrite of the neos code. In the end neos ISN'T text in files. Its the knowledge behind it


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 19:06:18
content:
  And i met him multiple time in neos in the last years (as a guest in his worlds, nothing more). So he is active


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 19:08:29
content:
  Well, i never met him ingame, but neos is big. Froox was definltly online in a public world yesterday ;)


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 19:27:56
content:
  No, it's people. Plural. Froox and Karel both have 50% of the company. Karel says only he can appoint the new CEO, but... that's not really true. It'd require Froox to also agree, since without the last 50%, the vote would be at an impasse.


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 19:30:59
content:
  and FFS, that means it gets even MORE depressing... both parties do not hold the same thing of importance. Karel wants a CEO to replace his duties and also uphold his stance with NCR. Froox just wants to keep development going, and while I can't speak on his behalf, considering all the stuff that has unfolded, including attempting to put Neos into a market it wasn't ready for, fairly certain NCR upkeep isn't on the table due to negative association.


type: message
date: 2023-05-04 19:31:27
content:
  In otherwords... we might have several impasses that all require different solutions, but must all share the same quality to pass all of them.


type: message
date: 2023-05-05 18:29:24
content:
  Welcome! If you're looking for a discussions/support related to the Neos game, I recommend joining the Neos discord at https://discord.gg/NeosVR


type: message
date: 2023-05-05 21:55:31
content:
  Neos' hardware support is always changing if youd like to see a device supported drop it on our GitHub as a feature request. Thank you


type: message
date: 2023-05-05 21:58:40
content:
  Dunno, Probably not is my guess? Neos isn't a blockchain/web3 based game and that seems to be the target for that console. Specs for it don't appear to be available nor does it sound like a functional prototype is ready yet. I don't see any mention of VR titles. From some digging it does seem some amount feasible given it is running some flavor of Linux and will have some Nvidia GPU in it


type: message
date: 2023-05-05 22:01:33
content:
  I mean, the Linux build is somewhat stable, but one issue would be that the VR functions are based on the Oculus SDK and the SteamVR SDKs. If Polium One doesn't comply to either, then it doesn't matter who owns Neos: it needs to at least conform to some OpenVR standard.


type: message
date: 2023-05-07 23:54:58
content:
  ~$60 million worth of Eth was already dumped on buy backs, I kinda have little faith in it getting any better. Unless your goal is to make a quick sell, which, fair play I guess xP


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:04:10
content:
  I think froox should get the majority percentage so we get updates again and CEO be appointed for the finances and everything


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:07:11
edit_date: 2023-05-19 09:59:56
content:
  Why should I give my share of the company I founded to someone who is blackmailing me and holding users hostage, not gonna happen. Frooxius should continue developing NeosVR client as I am continuing to run the cloud or hand over or open source its code.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:08:57
content:
  Next Whitepaper update coming soon will include monetary awards for Froox and/or other devs to stimulate further development and get them funded.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:10:47
edit_date: 2023-05-09 15:10:48
content:
  Frooxius is still Global Admin of the cloud I’m Billing Admin however the contract overall is to Solirax who is paying for it


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:11:43
content:
  Frooxius failed to renew certificates and switched to domains not using our Cloudflare aubscription that saved us a lot of money


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:14:51
content:
  Have you asked Froox to restore Cloudflare services? Based on the bills you shared, Solirax is further into the red and that can't be sustainable


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:18:20
content:
  Again I’m not in control of what domains NeosVR uses as Frooxius says that the code is his personal ownership and not the companies for some totally bizzare reason


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:22:12
content:
  You own bank account and developer owns code? Should be fixed. Developer should have 50 50 bank account money


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:24:59
content:
  For one the cert renewal process on this domain should clearly be automatic, second the person who uses the endpoint should do it


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:33:35
content:
  Dosn't change how munch is being made. It would not be constant spike up going up and up. It would be recahced eventually ND would go back to normal which dosn't seem to be what is being implied here


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:36:24
content:
  No gratitude from noone, many people got CDFT cashed nice money all on Neos Team and zero grwtitude only blqckmail


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:49:16
edit_date: 2023-05-09 15:52:32
content:
  Why is it so difficult to finally get one side pay out the other or split the code. Wishful thinking aside, cooperation will obviously not happen again and neos loses traction every day because of this standoff. I understand that both sides feel entitled to it, but why is it so difficult to finally accept that this is not working? I don't understand why this is still a thing after literally years..


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:50:34
content:
  I do understand both sides in this but none of you both have anything from this standoff. You both could do so much more then waiting for something that not happen, in my humble opinion


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:51:53
content:
  In what world would this happen? In the world where karel trusts froox and froox trusts karel to run his business again?


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:54:33
content:
  But really, i don't want to sound overbearing... but isn't there a way to get the ball rolling? This is pretty much just a bandaid on a unset break of a bone


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:56:19
content:
  I love Neos, but its a name. I am sure froox would be ok doing without it, making a new project. And with you splitting you could make it open source and try to make what is called Neos into what you invisioned?


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:58:34
edit_date: 2023-05-09 15:58:46
content:
  Are you sure? If both would consent to dividing up that code in a prioritary and open source and going seperate ways in terms of project? I am pretty sure that would work and maybe one of the project fails at some point, but it gives it a chance to evolve?


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 15:59:40
content:
  I am happy you think so. So froox doesn't want that i take it? Hmm... i had the impression he cares more about his project then neos as a name


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:00:39
content:
  What do the incentives mean is it for like creating a new dev team or for existing dev team to update neos because only froox can do that


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:01:22
content:
  Froox and Karel pretty much own half of the code as far as i am aware. Froox thinks is his because he pretty much made it and obviously it would be really difficult to continue any develop with that code without him. Karel sees the code as a product of the company... what is pretty much also true, but it is pretty much worth way more for the one programming it


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:02:26
content:
  In terms of usefulness, thats why code is often given in exchanges to the one that made it (if it comes to payouts). Doesn't mean that they don't posess it at the same size or part


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:03:24
content:
  In the end, both want to go different ways with the code and its a total impass between open source and prioritary


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:04:11
content:
  It doesn't mather what he is to the company, he is also owner. Its not that complicated, he owns half of the company and half of the code from that standpoint


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:04:37
content:
  i like not seeing my projects as children, mostly because the mental idea of "giving birth to code" is something i will inevitably try to visualize and that hurts to think about


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:06:36
content:
  Both of them have given heartblood in different way and i think none of them want to lose what they created


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:11:29
content:
  If froox takes the money, it changes everything for neos. Doesn't have to be bad. At this point i am even happy if any kind of split happens, seriously. I am pretty sure that even starting from scratch froox will build something awesome again and neos can continue on. But to be blunt, i still hope froox can continue to develop neos in some form.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:12:29
content:
  Oh important question please Karel. You say you to leave company before. Is this still your idea? Or you to change your mind on this subject. Please and thank you


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:14:02
content:
  The thing about this is, its unlikely that there will be a CEO coming in into a company that is at a total standstill and standoff with no visible future... it might have a future if it continues but thats like this hen and egg problem, isn't it


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:15:25
content:
  You know I’m not the one who started throwing public tantrums on Twitter, I’m not sure what else Frooxius thought would happen other than hurting the company


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:17:36
content:
  Agreed. We had things working in a peaceful manner. The API is restored. Progress has been made, and an attempt to restore trust is in progress.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:18:03
content:
  Easton, you are probably not even wrong, but if thats all this boils down to, it would have been fixed long ago


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:18:04
content:
  Easton I’ll say this once just don’t continue that topic we are trying to have a peaceful discussion to talk calmly about the product and the future of the platform


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:19:12
edit_date: 2023-05-10 01:15:09
content:
  Thank you Easton. I know you mean well, but you also often a bit of a jerk... i mean that in the nicest way ;)


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:20:44
content:
  I identify as a human male called Karel, a name that I very much like and that has a long tradition in my family


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:21:22
edit_date: 2023-05-09 16:21:36
content:
  This is obviously not about people playing their feeling of being an anthropomorphic animal. You would not go to the indians and say that they are insane of feeling their animal spirit guiding them. I am sure we can keep on track with the actual issues despite our different feelings^^


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:21:40
content:
  Ok back onto topic of future of the platform the api endpoint is working again already Did some requests to it  and my code is working so all good


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:23:47
content:
  Well, i mean if one side would have 51% they would have majority and lead the future of neos while the other side still takes the cake of whatever success that entails, but also any loss


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:25:08
edit_date: 2023-05-10 01:17:39
content:
  Yea, thats the thing with it, it means loss of control and as far as Karel is concerned, he is concerned (correct me if not) that frooxes team would run down the project into the ground


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:26:02
content:
  So while Froox is not giving up his share because it would mean loss of the code in some way, Karel does not for fear of losing the project, investment and anything connected to it really


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:27:57
content:
  Ok just curious since the filing states 26 march 2023 to convert to equity or a repay so thanks for clarification


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:28:36
content:
  Its not wrong alex, its more that it will not happen because it is against what both parties are after


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:30:13
content:
  Was talking about the old Solirax LTD page 10 creditors total exemptions full amount 2022 since there’s no up to date filings


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:34:01
content:
  But seriously, isn't there an incentive of both sides to actually split the company/code? I understand its difficult but, whats the incentive of any side to keep the status quo right now?


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:34:42
edit_date: 2023-05-09 16:35:14
content:
  Also what’s your opinions on snapshotting the chain and updating the contract code keeping balances and such and history and moving over to a new contract so we can update to contract code since there are some slight issues. And it’s a bit old version of solidity ?


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:36:29
edit_date: 2023-05-09 16:38:20
content:
  I like this speaking to community. Maybe could be done once a week set time. Get moderator active deleting trolls and answer questions.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:43:06
content:
  Well, i hope for great news concerning the coming announcement. I am not sure how this stalemate ends, but i do hope soon.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:44:21
edit_date: 2023-05-09 16:44:38
content:
  It is nice that we have people from all around the world here, but please stick to english for the chat. Most people here don't speak english as their native language. They still try


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:46:43
content:
  Noone really knows that, as much as we don't know how the owners will solve their stale mate in the end. I think we all would not be here if we would not hope they finally find a solution. As such, noone knows what will happen with the coin^^


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:50:50
content:
  Bear in mind the uses in-world are... different. It's a bit like a checking balance than actually having the coins themselves. In some regards, there are two different tokens backed by one. Any expenses that occur in-world (storage fees) are sent back to the treasury to account for associated service fees.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:51:35
content:
  Karel if talks is a thing you want to do with community. Here telegram is good. But lots of coins do discord or twitter spaces. All very good platform to use.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:52:21
content:
  Neos has a discord, but i think Karel prefers this one because the moderator of Discord are of Frooxes team


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 16:53:25
content:
  When new white paper drops twitter space, discord or telegram text chat communication will be very helpful for community


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 17:20:12
content:
  This stale mate isn't exactly about 300k (in my opinion). Its about froox not wanting to continue to give his code into a project he doesn't feel he owns. Its like having a bank account with your ex and continue using it


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 17:23:04
content:
  Well, i mean its frooxes decission i guess, who knows his reasons. I have my own theory that could be totally right or wrong, but in the end its at least a sign of some movement.


type: message
date: 2023-05-09 17:35:06
content:
  There was an attempt, but the issue was finding people who would accept ETH as a payment for work on a serious platform proposition. Needless to say, it didn't work, which was pointed out quite awhile ago


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:05:35
content:
  Wow, that's funny. I just got sent an email regarding some NCR that I attempted to withdraw, but the receiving system wasn't able to handle tokens. So looks like I can get my 230 tokens back after almost 3 years...
  yay?


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:09:59
content:
  Eh, it was 3 years ago as an extraction from the in-game wallet, not a big deal. Just interesting the exchange finally came up with a recovery solution after all this time.
  But thanks for the prompt response and I still give my thanks for attempting to fix the issue those 3 years ago.


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:12:50
content:
  Neos Wallets are part of Neos Accounts which have a recovery option if you forgot the password you can request a link to be emailed to you that lets you set a new password.


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:18:04
content:
  uh... that wasn't the issue. TLDR: Roughly 3 years ago, post bHaptics event, I withdrew 230 NCR in an attempt to use the in-game balance to effectively buy merchandise related to the event (namely, the arm haptics (which I can recommend)). The transfer out of Neos went fine, but the destination was to a non-token friendly wallet, namely the exchanges (which was my bad).
  Anyway, all functions within Neos were running fine. It was just the exchange's issue. Thanks to Karel, many options were recommended to the exchange to help remedy the issue, to no avail... until roughly 3 hours ago, in where the exchange noted the option to finally use some recovery tools.


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:35:23
content:
  I remember a few cases like that. With Ethereum blockchain there is no central authority. It’s decentralized technology meaning noone can reverse a transaction which is fundamentally a great thing. The NCR is at the exchange wallet and they have to recover it. It’s a standard Ethereum token so it shouldnt be that hard. What exchange was it?


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:40:58
content:
  Try their asset recovery page https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/trading-and-funding/sending-or-receiving-cryptocurrency/lost-assets I think they added it recently


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:43:58
edit_date: 2023-05-11 06:47:48
content:
  BTW Coinbase wants to list NCR on their platform, have told us we have to be open source and properly decentralized first though which we totally should be for the token to do well


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 06:53:12
content:
  If we are not properly decentralized NCR could be mislabeled as securities in the US meaning a major problem for an exchange doing business in the US such as Coinbase so very understandable


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 07:10:25
content:
  yeah. I was notified roughly a few hours ago about the tool's launch and observing the transaction, including all details. I'll be trying it out later


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 17:48:48
content:
  Karel, on my note of snapshotting the chain and moving to a new contract would u stay on main-net or using a layer 2 solution like polygon to reduce fees ?  If you go this route

  And  about staking if it was implemented  what would be  minimum stake time and would it be Proof of stake or delegated proof of stake etc.

  Just some questions I have been wondering


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 17:51:27
content:
  Well it’s the only way to update the contract’s code sadly and snapshotting moves all transaction history blocks and everything you just remove the old one from swap platforms it would retain the same info


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 17:55:08
content:
  What you propose is taking a snapshot of all major bank accounts that people have, forgetting about any money that is cash or otherwise not on a major bank account and making a new random currency that is now... crown corks


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 17:57:08
content:
  Its not a moving but a copy. You expect people would then use the copy instead of the original because it has better featurs or better rules, but you are not aware of it being just what it is... a copy


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 17:57:09
content:
  It’s a suggestion not a proposition and I want Karels thoughts on it not to actually do it. Since currently the contract has flaws and in its current state not expandable such as if you wanted to add staking or other functions


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 17:58:59
content:
  Right, ok. I think thats the worst idea i ever heard but i am not karel, so yes, i just wanted to point that out. Lets see what karel thinks.


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 18:01:42
content:
  My considerations are based on security flaws and how out dated. The old one is and how it was constructed and I know what your saying to me and sure I know most will hate the thought I’m just curious of his opinions since the currency is in a low state as it is


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 18:04:06
content:
  To  be blunt, the currency is based on the state of Neos and the peoples believe in its future. Its been 1,5 years and there is absolut no movement in any direction that would make us the least confident that this project continues to evolve. As much as this is a great piece of engineering, vision and project as a whole, its stuck until the two owners finally rip off the bandaid and break up the company


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 19:08:53
edit_date: 2023-05-12 01:05:46
content:
  I think it's wild how differently people look at Neos. This chat is a weird blast of perspective because in here neos basically just exists in the group consciousness as a crypto investment vehicle, and that's how it's discussed; meanwhile I've basically incorporated Neos into my life as an important social platform and productivity outlet and don't ever really think about Neos in terms of money or finances. Two very very different sides of the neos sphere.


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 19:35:07
content:
  It's complicated, but the most overly summarized of viewing the situation is due to that divide. However, it is isn't really the reason.
  The only reason you see the crypto discussions here is due to your observation, but not all parties are fully onboard and generally opt out or burn the tokens upon receipt.


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 21:13:37
content:
  it is not something i think about at all aside from the effect it has had on the platform, for better or for (much) worse


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 21:14:48
edit_date: 2023-05-11 21:21:16
content:
  I have no problem at all with the crypto currency, i like the idea a lot. But if its blocking the progress of Neos, its the opposite what it was made for


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 21:22:48
content:
  To make this perfectly clear, i don't think it does. I think of NCR as a side project that is still somewhat running and has no major bearing on the success of Neos in the end. Its the other way around. If neos fails, NCR dies too.


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 21:24:58
edit_date: 2023-05-15 09:09:59
content:
  That's more or less how I see it as well: NCR is just a part of Neos, but it's not critical to its operations.
  Remove NCR, and much of Neos doesn't change.
  Remove Logix, and people will lose their minds.
  Remove ease of asset imports, and people will riot.
  Remove VR support, and people will just claim "Second Life Clone"


type: message
date: 2023-05-11 21:27:28
edit_date: 2023-05-12 15:20:51
content:
  That's why I just don't care much for NCR: it isn't ready to become a part of the foundation, since the rest of the foundation is still unfinished. It's okay to still build with it, but this isn't 2017, and people's opinions are not much the same as they were prior. What could have been a strong foundation of change was quickly turned into something not many wish to associate with, and unlike previously, people are voting with their time and wallet.


type: message
date: 2023-05-12 20:44:22
content:
  That was one part of the cause with the whole situation: the unannounced poll to burn the remaining by sending it to null. Not even the people who WERE in Neos were notified until someone used the Neos Bot to notify users regarding the situation


type: message
date: 2023-05-12 20:45:06
content:
  The poll also used Discord's "poll" system so... a free platform that anyone can join and cast a vote and- Oh look, everyone who wants to swing a market has joined the Discord.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:37:02
content:
  NCR is a part of Neos and until Neos owners split up the company, nothing will really move. Thats pretty much it.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:37:36
edit_date: 2023-05-15 21:38:46
content:
  Think about it like a married couple and both have a joined bank account (thats Neos). But they want to divorce.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:38:19
content:
  Until they finally have someone deciding how to split that up, none of them would be stupid enough to pay into that bank account.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:41:31
edit_date: 2023-05-19 10:04:24
content:
  Splitting a company is higly non standard way of exiting a company that requires consensus of all parties and remaining parts having viability. Certainly not happening for Neos. Moronic idea. A company is not like a martige at all its a separate legal intity to any physical entity. One exits a company by selling his or her share. Thats pretty much it.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:42:04
content:
  Well, i understand that. But if one of you two would have want/have the money to buy it, it would have already happend


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:44:27
content:
  Also did not happen. So every month neos is getting worth less and the community losing hope that this project continues one day until neos gets replaced by something equal or better. Doesn't sound like that good of a solution to me


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:47:45
content:
  Hey, i don't blame you for everything, don't blame froox for everything. Doesn't mather really in the end does it. In the end you both keep grabbing on onto something that is guarantied to fail until it does. I don't mean that in a mean way... its just what it boils down to


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:50:33
content:
  I think you both could do such great things. You have such unique experiences and made something such powerful and unique. And now... well... that talent goes to waste, isn't it. I don't want to overstep... just kind of be a mirror here


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:50:36
edit_date: 2023-05-19 10:04:43
content:
  My team has actually a very good plan that has very solid chance of success. Not sure at all what Frooxius’ plan is other than hurting users and Neos. I understand your lack of fairh very much untiĺ solid performance. I guess we agree to disagree for now.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:53:05
content:
  You mean what you can create? As far as i remember you brought in a lot of experience with VR hardware and accessability at the start. I might be wrong, but its one thing that pretty much every piece of vr software is lacking


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:54:27
content:
  Or do you mean what you can do in terms of moving forward? Well its a bandaid in any case. If it would be me i would rip it off at that point. I really think you should split up the code in two projects and work with two teams


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:55:19
content:
  Yea, it is, kind of your knowledge with that might be invaluable to a company working on that already. But i also think of the software side in this and usability.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:57:42
content:
  Well i mean from the perspective of a company, it would be in the best interest... but if its not working, perhaps its just the people that are involved. You know froox is difficult and its less about not wanting what the CEO wants as it is specificly about you


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:58:32
content:
  Another CEO might be a solution, i mean you pretty much could choose one, might work better that way as well, you already sort of hinted that?


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 21:59:26
content:
  From the perspective of the company a former employee and founder is unwilling to share code for software that belongs to the company. Not sure what the company can do.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 22:00:40
content:
  True, true. So it comes down to what the company stands for. Its unable to act, the software is inaccessable, the project impossible to develop (from my point of view)


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 22:02:25
content:
  Company is not a spiritual being standing for things its a legal entity that is required to work for its costumers and owners. Do a service and earn money.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 22:03:21
content:
  Yes, yes, i mean just... a company that can't act, isn't unable to use its product or even make decissions, isn't a working company, isn't it


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 22:05:26
content:
  Right, well i don't want to make a discussion about "no it isn't" if i have no deep insight. It just feels from the outside that the last 2 years sort are lost to this project. But if you both don't rip of the band aid, well it will fail or go to the first person that actually develops a new version of neos^^


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 22:05:37
content:
  The general interface paradigm seems to have solidified enough for some serious work in UI at least. I'm pretty sure we are working twords a data glove interface with the current controller paradigm serving as a stop gap, but most of what we end up developing in 6dof land is going to end up transferring. I don't think we're going to see any fundimentaly game changing advances in hardware any time soon. Just incremental improvements.

  Got to experiment more with the UX. I see that as a major benefit of Neos at the moment. Really rapid prototyping with robust handling of 3d and volumetric media formats.


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 22:06:04
content:
  There are pros and cons for both but I would say announcing later with more robust things to show for has mich more pros then early


type: message
date: 2023-05-15 22:07:25
content:
  Concept and future feature list must be provided to understand 2.0 project future roadmap, to decide.


type: message
date: 2023-05-16 07:31:39
content:
  How exactly would you split it up anyhow? What would you say would be the "two projects" if something like that were to happen?


type: message
date: 2023-05-16 07:47:41
content:
  One open, one closed source, one Karel and one Froox... (and their team) and see what happens basicly


type: message
date: 2023-05-19 12:30:37
edit_date: 2023-05-19 18:17:29
content:
  No change. Karel say he hire new developers, but also say no developers accept ETH, so no new developers


type: message
date: 2023-05-19 12:35:28
content:
  Maybe the clearest way to see it. No sane business man or ceo wants the job (it seams) and that pretty much lines up with the expectation that financially there is no reason to continue the infight.


type: message
date: 2023-05-19 18:48:07
content:
  I'm really thankful the new shiny thing is Large Language Models :P We actually have the opportunity to do plumbing work now without all this ridiculous hype.


type: message
date: 2023-05-20 15:59:38
edit_date: 2023-05-20 15:59:56
content:
  Yes, patrons get tokens since years and as such i have enough to pay for storage for the next 100 years i think


type: message
date: 2023-05-20 17:37:26
content:
  Chilling at a Starbucks, something I thought I'd never say. Sadly all the improvement commits for my gamepad_reader for NeosVR are on my main PC, but I can make due even then and resolve the conflict later.


type: message
date: 2023-05-20 17:55:00
edit_date: 2023-05-20 23:50:22
content:
  Yeah. It'd be amazing if there was some way to reduce the latency, but for outside viewing, it works alright, though desyncing is common. That part I wish there was a way to at least test that so I can offer users the option to automatically refresh the stream to catch up if it's behind by say 8s or so


type: message
date: 2023-05-20 19:09:14
content:
  yeah. I'm using an EVGA capture card, which has the OBS preview at no latency, but the RTMP NGINX setup is always resulting in 2s, even on a remote server OR local. I'm convinced the client has a 2000ms buffer or something


type: message
date: 2023-05-20 19:18:14
content:
  yeah. More of an excuse to eventually get my old HiFi server hooked up with my new laptop, since I basically use it as a VPN server at this point


type: message
date: 2023-05-20 19:29:04
content:
  on a side note, I've released the gamepad reader script for Neos onto Github: https://github.com/FlameSoulis/gamepad_reader


type: message
date: 2023-05-20 19:55:26
content:
  I have an in-world dynamic core setup that should make tinkering with it all fairly simple. Otherwise, it's just a CSV of axis and btns in two seperate results for easier processing


type: message
date: 2023-05-21 00:00:06
content:
  While I haven't tested it, it should work on even a Steel Battallion Controller. The system asks for all available axis and buttons of the controller and forwards them. Granted, it will not state much more than that and I might revise the system to allow 'reporting' like first time message being able to say "name,SN30 Pro"


type: message
date: 2023-05-21 17:48:06
content:
  From Insider:
  - Apple must do what no other tech company has done: make the metaverse cool.
  - The iPhone maker is widely expected to debut its mixed-reality headset next month.
  - The company's making a risky move as the tech world retreats from the metaverse and fixates on AI.

  The world doesn't know a cool metaverse exists. Neos.


type: message
date: 2023-05-21 17:51:35
edit_date: 2023-05-21 18:58:02
content:
  I still dont think any true metaverse exists, but Neos as a VR application is pretty damn cool.
  Reallly interested in what Apple produces, so long as they don't try to butt in with their own standalone quest-like store.


type: message
date: 2023-05-21 20:45:53
edit_date: 2023-05-21 21:35:06
content:
  Buy the texture gun (but probably different name as "gun" would get cancelled) for 2.99 in the appstore, give us all your data, because we are the good ones and shill an additional  monthly salary on us every 2 years for a tiny bit higher resolution. What a fun Metaverse to live in 🍎


type: message
date: 2023-05-21 20:54:19
edit_date: 2023-05-21 21:34:13
content:
  Neos.
  https://varjo.com/press-release/varjo-and-machinemd-revolutionize-the-diagnosis-of-brain-disorders-with-a-vr-based-eye-tracking-solution/


type: message
date: 2023-05-21 20:54:30
edit_date: 2023-05-21 20:56:44
content:
  "Varjo, the leader in professional-grade VR/XR hardware and software, today announced its partnership with machineMD, a Swiss medical device company, for the development of Neos, an innovative diagnostic device being developed for the early diagnosis of brain disorders."


type: message
date: 2023-05-21 22:55:53
content:
  Basically, the group is using the name, be it due to not aware or with whatever reason can be composed.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 09:50:32
content:
  Neos has not been updated for more than two years, and has been in dispute with the team. I wonder whether neos technology is still at the forefront of the industry？


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 09:52:26
edit_date: 2023-05-22 10:31:51
content:
  I'm relatively still new to Neos, and I've been involved in VR for quite some time now. Building in Neos has been one of the greatest creative endeavors ever by a significant margin.

  Each day, I discover something new that the developers have thought of to include in the engine and its wonderful.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 10:20:54
content:
  Why did I care about neos in the first place? Just because I feel that this project is so great, now the whole world is pursuing the meta-universe is the future. I hope that such a great project as neos will be a member of the future meta-universe world. Because the project has been stalled for more than two years, worried about being overtaken by other peers in technology, then this great project is really a pity.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 10:35:19
content:
  Facebook pretty tried to create a space, but by being Facebook, limiting dev tools, being years behind in tech and option of expression + harshe rules and ideas about making it financial viable... failed


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 10:38:38
edit_date: 2023-05-22 10:39:02
content:
  Apple is trying, but apple is known for limiting development options, environment, users and expression. Compatible only to their own software, connectors, system, rules,... they will never create a environment space or playground.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 10:40:37
edit_date: 2023-05-22 10:41:39
content:
  I mean just look at everything else they made. Its clear that their products aim at the top 10% that only want to own this products to show they have money. Not because they expecially good or useful.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 10:52:10
content:
  Its like buying a stylish, multicolored, glowing hammer that only works on special designed nails and nothing else.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 14:18:03
content:
  Neos has officially been abandoned, and they've all left. Only pain and loss remain. Many people will go bankrupt after putting all their trust in the Neos Metaverse platform. Frooxius and the Neos team have quietly established their own company called Yellow Dog Man Studios s.r.o.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 14:19:51
edit_date: 2023-05-22 14:44:29
content:
  you talk about people who bought ncr like it is the only worthy part of neos, what about its userbase?


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 14:29:29
content:
  Karel & @malooniac still lying to the community & NCR holders: "We work diligently behind the scenes" .Then, it all got out of control. Oh well. So embarrassing.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 14:52:43
edit_date: 2023-05-25 00:58:29
content:
  also just to note  this company has no relation to neos at all aside some of the members on the site it does not mean this site will have any involvement with neos


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:05:32
edit_date: 2023-05-25 07:02:03
content:
  Frooxius is the main dev of Neos & Yellow Dog Man Studios. Does this really not matter????? His mishaps in Neos will persist no matter where he goes. Reputation, credibility, and professionalism???


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:10:02
content:
  It just means that froox is doing what he should have done at the start. There is no surprise in this of any kind. Yes there is still the war going on about neos code, but froox can't act as a company without being in charge of any company (even having 50% of the other company still means he can't do any decissions on his own)


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:14:16
content:
  the need to have a company as an acting body means there is expected to be some product and employees under its umbrella, it is very good


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:14:52
content:
  this could even go as far as the yellow dog man studios buying elements or all of neos for its product or buying its name


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:21:19
content:
  Big picture this makes totally sense. Froox could no longer add code to neos over the last year(s) and is still online every day. Meaning most likely was not doing something totally different. Reasonable to assum he did the same thing he did the last 10 years, as in developing neos or something extremly similar


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:22:06
content:
  As such he needs a company for his product sooner or later, as there is no way he can merge that with a company.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:26:58
edit_date: 2023-05-23 00:39:34
content:
  Yeah thats what I thought as well, was asking what is he going to incorporate as so Neos can make a deal with the new entity get it capital to kick start things. Got no reaponse.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:28:39
content:
  Hmm, well i wouldn't know, its just how i see it. And i realize he "could" have added the code, but then again, if he feels he doesn't own the particular code he adds to, he obviously can't in the sense that he will not probably.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:29:11
content:
  Or it could be a FUD. Prior to Apple's launch of the VR/AR/MR glasses for Metaverse development, this demonstrates their readiness to build their own Metaverse platform. I'm also quite certain that there will be a lot of FUD about the Metaverse for all markets.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:30:35
edit_date: 2023-05-23 00:39:52
content:
  If one is co-founder its expected to be also co-owner. Waking up one day and wanting other people out is weird behavior.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:33:25
content:
  I realize that, thats why i corrected the way i said it. What i mean is.. the divorce papers are not filled and both parties have still a joined account but noone pays into it for obviously reasons


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:35:35
edit_date: 2023-05-23 00:40:00
content:
  For the millionth time this is not a divorce its a company and that is very different. A company is a separate legal entity. A marriage is not.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:36:32
content:
  Karel, would you like to announce something to everyone? What are your plans for the future? Are you willing to give up everything or continue to accompany and develop Neos according to your vision?


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:40:49
edit_date: 2023-05-23 00:40:11
content:
  As I said earlier we are finishing new Neos Whitepaper that contains plans going forward. Will announce when it and other related things are ready.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:46:09
content:
  I can complete the whitepaper within 1 day because I can't fulfill the commitments in the whitepaper. Karel, have you fulfilled the commitments in the previous version of the whitepaper?


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:51:43
content:
  The conversations and discussions by Karel are all stored and fully documented on Discord. I still don't understand why they dislike you so muc


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:57:15
edit_date: 2023-05-23 00:40:17
content:
  I’m used to being harassed for years nothing new under the sun. I’m not sure the strategy is working.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:58:18
edit_date: 2023-05-22 20:53:50
content:
  I don't think that has anything to do with harassing. While it happens, this is just information. I would not make so much of that.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 15:58:26
edit_date: 2023-05-22 20:54:29
content:
  if we are talking about the ones i post they aint really for notifying or reporting more of just cataloging and so people know whats going on i dont mean any harm since not everyone has telegram
  not everyone in neos is even in the discord


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 16:06:28
edit_date: 2023-05-22 20:55:50
content:
  Through the discussions on Discord about Karel's statements, I feel like everyone there truly hates him. They even want to harm him if they were to encounter him in person. It's insane. This is the harassment he has to endure, and it feels terrifying. Karel, please leave the Discord community and don't pay attention to them. If you don't do that, you will be under tremendous pressure that could drive you insane


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 16:09:45
content:
  I think you overreacting. Yes the team of froox disliked karel, thats why people speak of the whole situation as a divorce (well at least i did, didn't i). As far as the situation goes its not as much bad blood as it is broken trust. Trust is important in a partnership, expecially if both own 50%. Fast forward two years it was not solved, so something has to happen.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 16:16:16
content:
  This seems to be big threat if all team member now work for new company? Current CEO and CTO but no devs for metaverse...


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 16:21:10
content:
  New white paper should include new team under CEO. These are not good news. Mr Karel need to show new team soon. NCR start mint is .06 USD and current is .08


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 19:10:23
content:
  it does.. they screencap everything he says mostly i. hopes they can find some sort of legal gotcha. I mean its pretty obvious they even say it


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 19:13:40
edit_date: 2023-05-22 21:02:44
content:
  hi newfriend, that's fine and all but I come from the reality where I've observed everyone's behavior for the past two years and the gross things they've said


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 19:17:26
content:
  I just know the original reason there were bots etc set up to snapshot and archive the telegram wasn't to see what was being said here so much as the intent was explicitely said to be to hope to find something liable to use... basically a different kind of stalking and harassing


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 19:22:27
content:
  I just popped in for the first time in months to ask if anyone knew if the apple headset would have eyetracking


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 19:45:27
edit_date: 2023-05-22 20:15:44
content:
  Your observations on people's behavior do not make you an authority to inform anyone of other people's intents if they haven't been explicitly stated by the people you're talking about. And unless you have specific people with specific expressed intent in mind, what you're doing is painting a generalized picture in very broad strokes of a very large group of people who all might feel differently from eachother (in this case, the entire neos discord server). Even if you think it's "pretty obvious" why people might do things, it may not represent the whole picture. I sometimes take screenshots of conversations I think are interesting and important, or may serve to add context or information to a discussion, and I've never in my life considered trying to legally gotcha anyone. Sometimes it helps to see from multiple perspectives. I have no doubt there's been harassment towards both sides from uninvolved onlookers, as there always is in these situations. I'm also sure that screenshots have been used to that effect from both sides, just as I'm sure they've been used in some discussions to try and facilitate more peaceful and balanced perspectives as well. It's a very nuanced situation, and it's a bummer all around. Pointing fingers and demonizing big groups or even individuals from either side is an annoying and unproductive thing to do.


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 19:52:54
edit_date: 2023-05-22 21:09:46
content:
  hey guys, again I come from reality where I'm not trying to gaslight people into thinking there wasn't years of harassment, due or undue, toward karel in the discord and publicly on twitter


type: message
date: 2023-05-22 21:57:39
content:
  Not to mention so many members of the team, be it the in-world moderation group or even the people who help with training, have also been banned from this channel in large numbers, which means their ability to help new users when asked questions, especially ones pertaining to information only available here.


type: message
date: 2023-05-23 00:28:18
edit_date: 2023-05-23 00:29:35
content:
  What is the reason you want to reach out to the devs? Just questions about the game/token or a business inquiry?


type: message
date: 2023-05-23 00:49:06
content:
  Did you have another question? I feel I answered the previous one sufficiently with where that type of inquiry is handled.


type: message
date: 2023-05-23 00:51:40
content:
  I don't know what you want me to do? If you want to make a 'business offer' you should probably contact the business directly. The method for doing that is email.


type: message
date: 2023-05-23 06:57:07
content:
  Yeah I got permanently banned on neos. VR for so-called impersonation of staff when I am a mentor and training and sexual harassment which I did not do and I tried going to the link that it says to go to for moderation and it says this page no longer exists


type: message
date: 2023-05-23 10:16:27
content:
  Orc it's not!


  I do this all the time even with private chats it's to help others who might have discord and not telegram


type: message
date: 2023-05-23 12:00:12
content:
  And this discussion was going like this for years without any progress?... I mean its not much, but neosvr has still some funding from patreon. Same with froox patreon. Sorry, but from my perspective it seems more like living with money without doing anything... I may be wrong and will LOVE to be corrected


type: message
date: 2023-05-23 12:10:37
content:
  And thats the problem. Theres nothing from both sides. Only weird "secrets" going under the roof, hidden from everyones eyes. If it was a question of surviving and having to bring the product forward to earn money - it would be a different story (maybe), but for now, even without progress, theres still money, funding, etc. -> that just reinforces bad decisions.


type: message
date: 2023-05-24 01:48:51
content:
  Even then, code isn't too helpful without people who understand it, and figuring out how the entirety of the systems work (remember, the client is not the only moving part) will take a very long while.


type: message
date: 2023-05-24 04:04:51
content:
  I tried to appeal the band and no one responded. The person who got me banned said that I was impersonating a neos staff member when I was a mentor in training and they also said that I was doing sexual harassment when I wasn't. They're also using a vore mod in public incidences


type: message
date: 2023-05-24 04:14:35
edit_date: 2023-05-24 04:14:51
content:
  No one from the moderation team is going to discuss the details of a moderation decision in public. You will only get a response through the appeals form, and that can take a while depending on their workload. If you believe someone is violating the neos guidelines, you can use the same form ( moderation.neos.com ) to report the details of the incident, the people involved/the people that witnessed it as well as the session it occured in.


type: message
date: 2023-05-24 04:15:13
content:
  As previously mentioned you need to submit a ban appeal at moderation.neos.com we have no record of your message on there.

  If you create an appeal and would like to check its status please privately message me the ticket number which you'll get from moderation.neos.com.


type: message
date: 2023-05-24 21:17:52
edit_date: 2023-05-25 00:12:41
content:
  there's not really any "negotiating" like it used to be implied. At best, sides are working to subvert each other


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 00:19:03
content:
  Progress without current ceo? First update and some structure. Minimum is better than current NCR website and two years of nothing


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 00:21:34
content:
  Karel say before he hire seperate developers, but no update. No progress. No social. No blog. No hope. No change. No future.

  No responsibility, blame others

  Disappointment


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 01:07:57
content:
  This chat really do be like 80% a pit of people popping in just to repeat complaints about the state of things. Ya hate to see it.


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 01:28:21
content:
  I cant speak for everyone of course, but some of us are just users that want this type of platform to succeed and everyone has a right to be frustrated about the whole situation


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:04:54
content:
  Oh, yea. Its not actually that slow. Compared to the delivery network of other VR-Games it is one of the fastest i ever see (just have to look at the transfer rates of VrChat for example to realize that)


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:05:25
content:
  The reason its so fast is that it uses and expensiv cloud delivery network that is excessive in cost. But the reason why it still feels slow is


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:06:04
content:
  The assets are way to big and the user use way to much uncompressed textures while the game doesn't reinforce any better compression or limits the size of assets


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:08:16
edit_date: 2023-05-25 15:08:24
content:
  Well I mean some days its more abysmal than usual as well, sometimes weeks and still a lot of the time im getting 700kbps


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:10:12
content:
  So i am not suprised over loading times of 3 minutes, even considering it COULD do that with my connection in about 20 seconds


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:11:44
content:
  I mean 10m+ times tbh. The movie world I can see, but it happened in a couple fairly optimized homeworlds as well


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:12:45
content:
  I mean, it could be everything. Have you considered that the disk that the assets are cached to might be an old physical disk?


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 15:23:09
edit_date: 2023-05-25 15:23:42
content:
  Thats fine. Its just something that happens to some people. If silent failures on worlds loading happen or it takes incredible long its the go-to solution to see if there is memory left to download the assets and if the disk is nearly full (may slow down a lot)


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 17:37:46
content:
  Yeah: that factor should be adjusted in the future. Like, we can see how many assets we're getting and all, but I think we should see how many are cloud-based and local-based since cloud-based transfers are usually far faster than the local ones, since not everyone runs their worlds like commercial servers.


type: message
date: 2023-05-25 17:38:31
content:
  Otherwise, it gives a false illusion that Neos is the most sluggish system out there... when it's because the world someone was visiting was hosted on dial-up.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 03:10:41
content:
  I can only find like one company named Mate that has any software relations as their primary company focus... and pretty sure Neos wouldn't be within their interest


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 08:38:39
content:
  Meta would probably try to acquire other social vr platforms to destroy them so that their horizon can bloom.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 08:40:42
content:
  or just acquire for patent farming... assuming Neos has resulted in any patents pending and/or published


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 08:55:54
edit_date: 2023-05-28 13:54:29
content:
  I mean, look at Tilia's Unity Plug-In announcement and VRC's denouncement of crypto being also pretty close to eachother... but that was a long time ago...
  Though.... they did announce trying to use a finance system so.... maybe not so crazy to spot everything converging...
  Though Tilia isn't with Meta...


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 08:57:01
content:
  (That will be interesting to see how that goes, since VRC+, if I recall, cannot be purchased on the Oculus store, and MUST be done via Steam or whatever. I'm surprised Oculus/Meta hasn't thrown a fit about that, since it's basically bypassing their finance system...)


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 09:01:35
content:
  I feel like someone already did. Kinda. They invested so much that they have a huge say now to how vrchat continues its development. I mean whats the other reason for them to bring out EAC update?


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 09:12:09
content:
  Also question about Crypto stuff. Why does neos directly had to have something to do with Crypto? There almost no implementation of it that works for masses. I mean, Second Life (kinda) has this system of ingame currency, but how many people are actually playin SL? In fact, for the most users its the opposite of attractive when they join a platform and see everything cost money. That was at least the case for SL. Its a very niche thing that suits only few people.
  For Neos though... I get that as a business it should also have a group that focuses on earning money etc. But is Crypto really the best option here? You know, VRChat got huge Investments because they just did an awesome job of bringing people together. Vrchat is even kinda a whole assosiation for the vr. Many people bought VR headsets literally for VRChat. They didnt have crypto.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 09:13:34
content:
  I can only imagine how popular and successful neos could be only if it focused on other parts. Like damn its a freacking Engine AND social platform at the same time.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 09:20:42
content:
  Needs some polish with UI (at least the stuff that werent updated yet like inventory window or inspector). It needs a bit of a separation between normal social part and the development part. So that user who just wants to play would not be blasted with tons of tools into his face, but at the same time so that you can switch into dev mode and start creating.

  Its maybe a year/two worth of updates and then bringing a project back on its feet. Youtubers will catch on, like omg, gears started turning. Give interviews to some guys, pay some youtubers to check out neos. Bring out a Quest 2 / Pico 4 version of neos out tp reach a bigger audience.

  And then make a subscription plan for like 8.99€ for more storage and other cool things.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 09:21:18
content:
  Like, I know it cant be done immediately, but if those things were the goals for neos... Just how different could everything be?


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 14:59:44
content:
  thats to stop double charging if using the subscription method since how its working with storage its just safer to do it start every month


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 15:55:06
content:
  Okay... This one is pretty simple: back in the earlier times of VR, crypto didn't have a bad reputation. If anything, it was a common buzzword that a tech product pretty much was obligated to add. For Neos, the idea was it was an alternative way to assist with funding, but with a reward given in NCR. This token could, at the end of development, be used to help kickstart the in-world market.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 15:57:29
content:
  Although I dont remember any VR devs to implement Crypto into their game. Maybe Neos wanted to be the first one. Didn't go well, but why try to force it still?


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 15:59:04
content:
  As for the money thing, don't kid yourself: VRChat is crazy expensive if you think about it. You want an avatar in Second Life? 1000L$ is about $4 that goes DIRECTLY to the creator. VRC and otherwise? Due to no in-world systems, creators have to sell as full art assets, which costs 5x more on average.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:00:00
content:
  It was VERY common. However, most of the platforms from the era died out, crypto assisted or otherwise


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:02:41
content:
  If the money goes directly from user to user. If the goal is to make money from this... weird decision. If the goal was to make the process of buying/selling ingame assets - then it sounds great, but the game itself should be sorta finished first before even thinking about this kind of stuff


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:03:32
content:
  but from messages of Karel it seems like the idea behind it was not simply to make it easier for people to buy/sell assets ingame


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:05:05
content:
  Well, the issue is that there's not much of a complete system for it, since it wasn't finished. There's an API for the testing currency, but that's about it. Again, the idea was that by backing on Patreon or via ETH, you would get a currency to be used on completion. The only function at this time is storage boosting, but that is handled internally and doesn't reflect any public APIs.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:06:33
content:
  to be honest it was more down to users to impliment stuff you could do a lot with the tip jar event node and some http nodes but eh, no one really used it beside some jp arcade but that used the KFC not ncr


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:09:50
content:
  As for fluctuations in value... Yeah, you pretty much spotted what people figured out; because of the fact that one day, 100 NCR could be one value and the next a totally different one, people were less inclined to buy things with their tokens on most other systems. Instead, you just have people hoarding and not contributing to the market. This is why when it comes to a functioning system, the L$ is the system most compare to, since it doesn't have that issue (the value can fluctuate, but it is far slower)


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:12:49
content:
  That, and buying and selling it is a million times easier to deal with. Need L$ now? Clears with Paypal in seconds. Need to sell L$? Takes about a day or two to get cleared for verification on withdrawal to PayPal.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:14:59
content:
  Making it easy to access and use is why SL is still going strong. At least on its own funding, which more than what can be said for VRC, who still needs investment charity.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:22:51
content:
  VRChat has a hell of a base to build on. If they would decide to make something like assets market etc. - it has a huge chance to be successful. They can even allow themselves stuff like EAC update that goes against community.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:29:52
content:
  But, no matter what the community says, how many complaints or support there is, how many youtubers make videos about it, how many people try to get patreon to support the project, its like trying to go through a wall.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 16:35:36
content:
  It would be really awesome if there was any way/chance for a normal user to push this process forward. Like, I genuinely have a question -"What we do to help?"


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:16:16
content:
  as in like a community goal thing?
  I mean, nothing wrong with that, but it's all complicated. Neos is pretty adaptive, compared to everyone else (wonder why Neos has lasted so long with almost zero updates?).


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:18:21
content:
  Opinion: The thing is, it's a bit like going from a Mac to PC: People who use PCs tend to scoff at the simplicity of a Mac... but people can't say Macs don't look good. Neos is in a similar pickle; You have more you CAN do on it, but with it, comes more controls (behold, a SECOND mouse button being standard), but it also comes with a slight learnign curve. Thing is, a bit like a Mac, so many people suggest going to VRC because funny means and simple, like how Macs in the early days were given often to schools for nothing, so early on, people use Macs, learn Macs, graduate, then when it comes for a computer... it's a Mac.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:21:50
content:
  I mean, look at Twitter, Facebook, and other companies stuck with controversies that people continue to use despite what is going on: the services provided are what they are, and the alternatives, despite often offering more, don't really get used. Asking people to go from VRC to Neos isn't straight forward as simply saying "Yeah, all that? It just works. No mods." People don't listen to logical reasoning with that kind of stuff.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:26:58
content:
  For small projects its important to listen to users while trying to direct them into the right direction. I mean, learning Unity is also very hard, but I dont see people complaining much about it.

  We all know the major complaints about neos. (None of them being the lack of crypto btw)

  Its UI
  Its poor optimization
  Its difficulty of use
  And of course lack of updates.

  Those are the biggest yet I've heard from literally almost everyone who tries neos for the first time


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:28:23
content:
  If you want my analysis, it's the following: Neos isn't as popular because people don't think what a normal user actually is or what they want. I would be seriously curious on how many people in VRChat even upload an avatar, let alone created anything. Sure, VRC is taughted as "A place where you can be anything or do anything," but how many people ACTUALLY do any of that?  Creative power sounds great on paper, but in execution? "It looks cool, sounds cool, but I'm not a software engineer."
  People want as little resistance to getting what they want. Loading a site is typing GOOGLE into a bar, not typing 172.253.115.106. People want to drag a unitypackage and have their avatar just work... not drag things in. Sure, for creators, avatar creation in Neos just blows VRC out of the water in some regards... but then you are asking creators to deal with a system that, API wise, could allow distrobution to people who buy on Gumroad or whatever... but now they have to dev on TWO separate systems.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:29:46
content:
  The overall experience isn't quite the same. Software on a Mac and PC is like a world in VRC and Neos: both can look and operate the same, but the overall systems you use them in aren't.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:31:03
content:
  UI (well, nothing too advanced, just needs polish, try to separate advanced stuff from normal social part)

  Optimization... Hard. (But something that can be done is for example to bring baking in, or Unity SDK so people CAN bake proberly, to stop using real time lights. Etc etc.)

  Difficulty of Use (As I've said before I think a good idea could be just to separate the social vr and dev part. So that people who just want to enjoy social part wont be blasted with complicated dev tools etc)

  Lack of updates (Literally start working on project and stop lying)


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:33:55
content:
  Regarding dev stuff... the thing is... that's equally complicated.
  You have to understand Neos's culture, or what's left of it (which you will hardly see here): Creation is almost its own language for people. I can bring in photos of something I made IRL, or a funny video to show everyone. Those are all part of Neos's dev tools to some extent.
  However, I can see more towards another thing that meets a bit in the middle, which is a cultural shift to just ask the people to avoid using the dev tool and inspectors all the time. That's a tall order, since some systems do rely on it for doing other stuff.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:35:17
content:
  As for the other parts, like say movement options being in the radial menu... that's also up to world builders to form some kind of agreement, as the ball is entirely in their park. Teleport locomotion, for example, is often absent due to how much it can break things, yet is considerred an important thing for VR users who suffer from motionsickness.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:38:15
edit_date: 2023-05-28 17:38:32
content:
  Maybe its the first impression, just how many information is thrown into your face right from the beginning


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:39:03
content:
  That I can concur and agree with. I mean, VRChat's tutorial, if you really look it over... is kind of terrible. Neos's does explain everything.... but it EXPLAINS EVERYTHING


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:39:06
content:
  Maybe it needs a user rank system, so that new commers first focus on experiencing the worlds, the game, not start working on an extremely hard avatar right away


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:39:39
edit_date: 2023-05-28 17:40:52
content:
  I think it also has to do with available content and accessibility to it. VRChat has many worlds with hundreds of avatars while Neos has a couple worlds with under 50 avatars. Also not having a structure similar to unity packages, it takes a good amount of dedication to setup a custom avatar in neos and that kills it for a lot of people


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:40:36
edit_date: 2023-05-28 17:40:47
content:
  Unity takes some dedication too, but people already know what they are getting into with VRC. Neos is an experiment in comparison.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:41:23
content:
  Yeah that. Also the worlds tab in the menu in neos is... i dunno why, but it feels more complicated. Maybe like a starting location shouldnt be a 20 min tutorial right away, but maybe like a corridor with rooms that show examples on whats possible in neos


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:41:38
edit_date: 2023-05-28 17:42:13
content:
  Additionally, creators already did the hard part. For many people, it's 'drag package in,' 'change pretty sliders,' 'upload,' 'done.'


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:41:54
content:
  We have A LOT of worlds and probably needs even more organization, or clarity. Not sure how to go about that


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:43:00
content:
  I mean yes, but maybe next time find someone who maybe learned a few things about the menu and knows how to make a good and intuitive menu? xD


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:43:44
content:
  Creating a custom session requires so many god damn clicks like even when I know how - I loose myself in that menu


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:46:12
content:
  I think it boils down to this: Neos needs ONE UI language... not 50 million.
  Let's be real: in the current UI system, each system feels like a school assignment. The New Folder button in the Inventory? Also the Save to Inventory option if you drag an item over it.
  Buttons and everything should have a new UI library that EVERYTHING can agree with, and a layout that is ENFORCED. The settings page is my biggest point, where it COULD be saved if a UI system was made where options were added organically to group boxes that expand as needed, so less work is needed to tweak things, since the larger part was already done.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:50:46
content:
  You can send anything over the messaging system: remember what I said about 'hidden' features or buttons having multiple purposes? Same thing. The green button next to the voice record can be used to send assets, including pictures


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:52:13
content:
  the home and local sessions, dunno why the gotta be in the Everything tab, like, it makes it confusing, because it mixes the worlds im in with the worlds I would potentially want to join.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:55:05
content:
  yeah. The other thing is that VRChat is organized in Worlds -> Sessions, whereas Neos goes straight to Sessions. Additionally, Headless servers also count, so even if you had just sessions... you'd also have those show up, adding to clutter


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 17:55:48
content:
  The problem is that Worlds in VRC are published as is: Neos could have a person's saved version of a published version, thus having a new ID, so you can't really organize that way either.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 18:00:01
content:
  Im gonna list of all tabs that make no sense why they are in the worlds tab.

  Everything(Why call it everything?, weird naming, The first should be the tab with sessions with most users, and going from a server with most users to less), Featured(featured what?), Published Worlds(isnt featured tab for that?), Headless Sessions(does it matter what session it is?), MMC23(what is even that? (in the eyes of new user)), Social (Isnt everything already social?), Art (ehh...?), Shuffle(I mean, this one is not that bad, but the naming could be different).


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 18:00:34
content:
  Active Sessions should be sessions that you are actually in, not overall active sessions. That's what "everything" should be for


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 18:13:51
content:
  that's a bit unfair to compare that way: Steam Overlay operates on its own system and is literally the system that handles SteamVR, so it is always running the best.


type: message
date: 2023-05-28 18:23:17
content:
  Additionally, the Steam Overlay doesn't operate with tough UI systems. Using apps in Neos uses a setup that allows touch screen like systems to work where available. This means scrolling in Chrome/Firefox results in a far smoother experience.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 01:24:31
content:
  well, that's the other thing: Virtual Desktop or whatever else app you can use is not the same as the environment app in use, so controls conflict. Using the Desktop viewer in Neos is free, and you won't accidently click around on things you didn't want because of it


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 06:35:12
edit_date: 2023-05-29 06:41:20
content:
  There is not, You can search this channel for some commentary from Karel who has promised a new whitepaper soon. Thank you.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 10:28:20
content:
  Why is that whitepaper so important anyway? Isnt it literally just an information paper of goals of the company etc.? Kinda useless at this state of Neos honestly


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 11:16:57
content:
  i really wish it had the same input method as other desktop viewers though, the neos one doesn't really have a mouse cursor which is a bit of a pain
  bonus points if it could also have ui access without needing to run neos as administrator ;3


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 11:22:02
content:
  I can control the virtual desktop out of neos with my vr controls. Also i never have started neos as administrator


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 11:23:11
content:
  right, but if you want to control stuff like uac or anything that launched as admin then neos can't by default


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 11:24:21
content:
  its actually also exactly what UAC is about. Limit applications that remote control things that are potentially dangerous


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 17:52:31
content:
  I'm not really interested in the popularity contest aspect of platform building. VR is an emerging computing form factor which remains highly experimental with a very niche userbase. VRChat is a social vr platform, Neos is a VR platform that can support social VR. Emacs and Microsoft word are both text editors, but I'm really not about to suggest that Emacs needs to chase microsoft word. I just don't see the point in abandoning 99% of the toolkit for name recognition.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 17:59:00
content:
  Well... You arent maybe. But it doesnt come alone, there are of course problems with being popular, but also good things... Like money


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 18:12:08
content:
  In the early days of desktop computing, a quite famous happenstance was that the freeware version of DOOM became more popular than Microsoft Windows. Generally, gaming was and remains the widest driver of computing equipment adoption. At the moment Social VR is the killer app for VR hardware, but that's not where this process ends. Neos is positioned uniquely to explore the space that comes next, and that's where it's opportunities lie. The integration of educational tools such as the circuit simulator, rapid integration with new VR hardware, rapid development of proof of concept vr applications, effortless architectural previsualization, effortless import of medical imaging formats.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 18:26:45
content:
  Chasing VRchat is a fool's errand. They are much better capitalized. But Neos isn't a better VRchat. It's a platform that happens to be able to support a better vrchat. While VRchat can not be beat on it's own terms as a consumer platform, Neos is unmatched as a professional tool for navigating 3D data formats and simulations in vr. That's the strength to leverage. To be quite honest, the social Vr aspect of Neos is best viewed as marketing, even if it is a more capable product than VRChat it is not where Neos is going to be able to disrupt.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 18:28:44
content:
  I think the reason for a large majority of the anxiety is just the expectations of what Neos once was and how it's basically gone.

  Doom may have been on more PCs than Windows itself, but also recall that Microsoft basically created a team to make DOOM also work in Windows as a means to get sales. The thing is, we're starting to see that, where VRC is taking plenty of Meta's money (Namely, an addition of a feature "exclusive" to a headset from a specific company doesn't magically appear, only works for that headset, and the company selling the headset doesn't magically have a sale in less than 24 hours afterwards). What gap of 'bleeding edge' that Neos once had is basically gone. Neos isn't a niche anymore; it's slowly just being one with the standard of even VRChat, so the comparisons that were previously less justified are now anything but.

  Yes, you can build VRC in Neos. WIth some plugins to do UI swapping or whatever, you could pull that off. Once cannot encompass the other, but is the opposite the other way around. The thing is that the effects of having Neos once be a leader in "That cool new VR feature" is now becoming no more, and we're all starting to feel the effects of it.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 18:37:09
edit_date: 2023-05-29 18:37:46
content:
  Neos is still the most capable vr toolkit out there right now in terms of pick up and run with it integrations. It's frustrating to not see it being developed or leveraged, but it's still just not a VRchat competitor and never really was. Nor is VRchat a Neos competitor. Neos' competition to me, is Nvidia's Omniverse. We're definitely sleeping on an opportunity, but VRChat was never a threat.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 19:00:29
content:
  The thing is... in retrospect, while true, the MS/Doom comparison still rings a bit true in another way: even if not competition, it IS something that is hurdling the fact that people aren't coming over. Let's be real: Omniverse, S@box, Somnium, whoever the heck: even if they aren't direct competitors or are, the general public pretty much looks at everyone and goes "VRC Clone." Say all you want how it isn't competition, how it isn't the same thing...

  When people pretty much use VRC  as the comparison point, it's basically something you have to keep in mind at all times. Yes, this doesn't ring true for games and what not, but the similarities for Neos and everyone else against that... the argument is just trying to narrow down who to focus on, when the end goal is still the same.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 19:06:43
content:
  The comparison was and stays with "VRChat" + "Unity" 😂 Whatever developers are trying to make, nobody can force a big "proper" explanation of what something is or isnt


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 19:40:31
content:
  The end goal is, for me, to identify and develop useful abstractions to push HCI forward into its next paradigm. Vrchat isn't really talked about outside the social vr circles. Or if it is, it is as a meme. There isn't a general public opinion about specific vr applications. Anyone discussing VR in any length is a hobbyist in a niche technology. As it stands that discussion (e.g. the popularization of vr, arguments by market share, market appeal, etc.)  is wholly dominated by Meta in particular and their constructed public.

  I don't find that a useful or desirable perspective unless we want to create Meta's metaverse.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 20:04:16
content:
  Did you know Microsoft Bob was all vector graphics? It was annoyingly future proof in ways I can't belive never got put into windows.


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 20:06:24
content:
  We still don't have resolution independent scaling 100% sorted in pretty much any major modern operating system. And there is Bob back in the 90s being a laughing stock and entirely resolution independent :P


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 20:13:27
content:
  Social VR is a  buzzword TBH. It always was weird to me. It would be like calling an MMORPG a "Social Computer Application."


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 20:15:20
content:
  Social... Well it just means its focused on social interaction. Not particularly on gameplay of the game


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 20:22:33
content:
  social vr is entirely a Metaism IMO. There is some truth to some of the observations about the impact of vr with regards to socialization, but I think it has more to do with the desire to associate it with social networks and hammer home that Brand Recognition.

  Consider that there are game-forward experiences in both Neos and VRChat. Even experiences that are intended to be single player, just because of the convenience of the toolkit. Or how about the distinction between party games and social deduction games?


type: message
date: 2023-05-29 20:36:57
content:
  I think Matthew Ball probably had the right idea. He called these sort of applications Integrated Virtual World Platforms.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 10:35:20
content:
  Latest Announcements are in pinned messages here and posted in the #announcement channel in discord which is the main source for news for Neos


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 10:43:57
content:
  I don't think they've announced enough on what VR runtimes it'll be using or what it'll support yet.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 10:45:13
edit_date: 2023-06-02 10:47:30
content:
  You can read the previous conversations had in this chat. It shows everything you need/want to know regarding updates and neos


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 13:28:20
content:
  Hello ADMIN 
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  Best regards,


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 13:34:55
content:
  You can contact hello@neos.com for business inquiries, offers and discussion. This isn't really the place to offer your help in that manner


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 14:10:38
content:
  Yeah, those details aren't entirely known. Though recently iOS's webkit project had had WebXR apis implemented. I'm excited to see what hall they intend to do.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 15:37:50
content:
  That might actually be a death knell to Apple's headset; pre-existing games might not be able to be ported due to graphical API differences.
  Of course, this also means any titles made for the headset also might end up as exclusives, or take a million years to be done, like NMS.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 17:25:36
content:
  Do you know a single apple product that is built on open standards, affordable and aims to deliver to wide range of users and usecases? Like a marker killer headset? I dislike Facebook but that was one thing they did deliver. Apple? Never


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 17:39:16
edit_date: 2023-06-02 19:03:42
content:
  I expect that they will deliver a high res, super color accurate headset with every sensor that you can push into it, stylish designed to say "look i have money" that only works in its own "apple open vr" environment (joke writes itself) with an integrated app-shop and compatible to exactly nothing else. A toy that cost 3000$ or more for 600$ of hardware that will bring some apple users that lived behind the moon to VR, but only to the VR experiences that are expecially designed for "them". And obviously that is where its going to die a year later.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 18:03:00
edit_date: 2023-06-02 18:04:52
content:
  Without the EU forcing them to do that or use USB in their mobile devices, nothing like this would have even happend in the first place. And they still try to get out of it by making USB-Chargers with identify-chips so that the devices can tell if you use a charger by apple. "U no apply? I don't work! Help! Oppression!"

  Meanwhile the rest of the device economy: "Sure, 5W charger is fine, but it will be way faster if you connect me to a charger that was made in the last 10 years. 65W? I sure, now it will go faster. 100W? I am sorry my battery can't charge that fast, can we talk about 65W? Great! Yea i do not care from what country or company you come, glad we can talk in USB protocols about that!"


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 19:49:55
content:
  Doesn't it only have one, though? 1 USB C Thunderbolt and the headphone jack? Getting off topic, but it has been awhile since I've even touched an Apple product so... *shrugs*


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 19:50:16
content:
  Connects wirelessly over the most amazing Bluetooth upgrade you've ever seen that nobody else anywhere ever is allowed to use


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:04:55
content:
  I think airpods specifically use some kind of crazy proprietary modified Bluetooth that has better bandwidth? Or something?


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:05:39
content:
  Nah, it's all bog standard. the datastreams cap out at like 50 MBps. The airpods just use aac though.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:06:11
content:
  The 'true wireless' earbuds mostly are limited by the space constraints for their electronics rather than the protocol though.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:07:09
content:
  All of them absolutely suck if you want to get microphone input though. For whatever reason they've never bothered adding a high quality microphone input mode on pretty much any Bluetooth headset.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:08:35
content:
  The pros have a good sound signature. I mean, their engineering is good, but they are all dealing with pretty massive limitations.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:11:24
content:
  And it's not like they are in any way repairable. But, to be fair, I've been using this set of Soundcore liberty 2 pros for like 5 years so, depending on how you treat the batteries they can have a decent useable life. It just really grates on me, given I have headphones from the 70s that still work great but now that we've gotten rid of the basic I/O they require even the high end consumer headphones now all have rapidly depricating electronics in them.


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:14:32
content:
  We live in a world where you've got to bring your own amp-dac to the table no mater how you cut it. So you get to choose between a conveniant, portable formfactor wasting a whole lot of money for not great sound quality, or you get a BTR-5 from FiiO and end up replicating the wired headphone experience on your fancy new smartphone :P


type: message
date: 2023-06-02 20:42:27
content:
  That being said, the USB to Audio adapters have been fairly decent for my phone and laptop. It does suck having to carry another cable, but eh...


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 12:40:15
edit_date: 2023-06-03 12:40:18
content:
  for me iv found that using AutoEQ(via Wavelet on Andriod) does help sound a lot for wired and wireless


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 16:26:09
edit_date: 2023-06-03 16:26:14
content:
  So Apple would probably develop a kind of proprietary protocol over WiFi-Direct to connect those wireless headphones


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 19:54:27
content:
  The big question is more in the kinds of codecs Bluetooth peripherals support (adds licencing costs) and in the quality of the AMP/DACs you can fit in the space (engineering constraints)


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 19:56:43
content:
  thankfully, that's been changing usually for the better overtime. If anything, to me, latency is the biggest thing I'd love to see reduced further, but for simple, casual use, a recent pair of "5.0" noise canceling headphones has become my new favorite traveling over the ears for my daily driving laptop


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 19:58:27
content:
  yeah. Plus, if I absolutely need no latency... my headphones do offer wired operation (would have been cooler if it was over the USB C, but eh...)


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 20:00:31
content:
  Long battery life for the true wireless headphones nessesitate ultra sensitive drivers, which need a super low noise floor in the amplification circit, which in turn needs to be well isolated from the digital mode circuitry, and all of that becomes exponentially harder the less space you are working with.


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 20:03:59
content:
  If you listen to any true wireless headphone, you'll notice there is a low background hiss right before and right after sound is played. That's because they are actually fully turning off the amplification circuit to disguise the relatively high noise floor. However, when media is playing, you can still detect it, though it's obviously harder to make out when there is noise present. You'd need a track with very high dynamic range.


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 20:06:37
content:
  Those sort of psychoacoustic tricks are necessary right now, and honestly, they probably are always going to be necessary just because you can't fully isolate the amplifier from the rf noise.


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 20:17:27
content:
  These are 100$ headphones whose whole gimmick is that they are only 30ms slower than 12$ IEMs you can plug directly into the Quest 2, no problem XD


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 20:24:15
content:
  The drivers used on those headphones are less than 2$ each, i guarantee. the miniaturization cost for the electronics and the marketing take up the primary budget. But there is literally no way that the chip they stick in such a small package is going to be more capable then even a 25 cent integrated DAC/AMP on the primary device. Which has to be there anyway to drive the internal speakers! :P


type: message
date: 2023-06-03 20:25:33
content:
  I mean, I remember when I had my Win98SE USB DAC (one of those super cheap cheapos from early ebay days) on my Vive... and it was somehow BETTER than whatever HTC provided... despite using the same audio interface (sans the mic, which was the real reason I used it)


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 19:18:26
content:
  not to mention, just because it has Unity support doesn't mean the other components will play nicely on a different architecture .


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 19:19:44
content:
  I mean, ask anyone about how the beta Quest build works and you'll receive a CVS receipt-sized list of disappointment if you think it's as easy as 'change platform to Y'


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 19:55:00
edit_date: 2023-06-05 19:57:55
content:
  well its a headset that runs apps all examples was buisness use No usecase of using computer for compute power or running 3d games mostly just AR there is no controllers


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 20:05:11
content:
  To be fair, working with AR screens is pretty nice, though I don't own an AR capable device just yet. I've only done demos


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 20:06:25
content:
  At low latency I can totally see it. Sometimes I'll use my mouse and keyboard with the steamvr overlay and even that's kinda neat even though it's bulky


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 20:07:22
content:
  Yeah. It's been on my debating list as an upgrade to my older Q1. The Q3 looks interesting, but I dislike the lack of eye tracking functions, which I feel is more important as a step forward for VR functionality


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 20:07:59
content:
  I mean, I do that a bit in Neos with floating displays in VR and my keyboard or controllers tracked in VR. So... Augmented Virtual Reality?


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 20:20:32
content:
  I know; just feels... strange to not slowly push eye tracking to a consumer level, especially with AR functions.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 20:26:07
edit_date: 2023-06-07 19:07:18
content:
  My current concern is if people are jumping into here hoping for an Apple update. If memory serves me well, there hasn't been a Mac build of Neos since... never? I know the DK2 had a Mac library, but I think that was discontinued once they went commercial with CV1.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 20:40:48
content:
  People jumping into here? Just to ask for an update? Surely you jest. Such a thing could never happen here


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:38:19
edit_date: 2023-06-05 23:35:08
content:
  There are two things that i took away from Apple's announcement: the first is that they are right, controllers suck. The second is they better have some distinctly magical hand tracking tech.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:39:05
content:
  In either case, it means that we probably should be putting a lot more thought into hadtracking in xr enviroments.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:39:42
content:
  the lack of an ability to interface with neos from a direct manipulation interface is actually a pretty serious weakness.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:40:55
content:
  And it supports open vr, so if the creator of the headset would care it would not be required for neos to do anything


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:41:52
content:
  But yes, yes, i know, apple never follows any open standards, that would cut into their ability to control the user base. I am just saying it would be possible.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:42:41
content:
  It does, i have tried it with 2 headsets where i can't even remember their names because it was so complicated


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:42:46
edit_date: 2023-06-05 22:43:07
content:
  The only thing I have in OpenXR support's favor is the existance of WebXR suipport in Ios's browser, but that's a jump.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:43:13
content:
  one from china and the other one from... a cheap bulk selling website without any marking of a company


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:45:27
content:
  well, it was already expected that apple would purposly not support any open standard, so they can "customize the user experience"


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:48:23
content:
  Doesn't pay for us to poopoo the headset just because. At the very least we know that Apple will be supporting WebXR, which is an open standard.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:50:29
content:
  Yes perhaps webXR can be missued and tricked into working for a native application, but any try pressing a function that isn't meant to be used for that into doing what you want, there is always a price


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:51:36
content:
  If there is no native support, this will always work less well then any other headset. There is no point in paying 4 times as much money if it works worse


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:53:59
content:
  Might not be the case in a year, but the value proposition is pretty clear. Apple is bringing apple silicon, and that has been consistently the category leader in performance.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:55:05
content:
  You can only hope so, i mean you pay the price of 3 full fledged computers for it. It will still not excel at that task because of the overhead. And more then that, frame rate and reaction time is more important for a VR headset then any other medium.


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 22:56:10
content:
  But yea, we will see if people get around the purposeful placed limitation to use the hardware they buy for what they actually need it for... what a joke


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 23:37:04
content:
  One big takeaway is their take on what to do with video calls. Their ability to quickly snapshot the user's face, then use the sensors to replicate the features is a massive milestone that even Meta could learn from


type: message
date: 2023-06-05 23:37:45
content:
  if there's one thing that I begrudging can say about Apple, it's that they're perfectionists, so whatever they have working, 9/10 it's pretty smooth in operation


type: message
date: 2023-06-11 06:41:40
content:
  knowing Apple, the performance for gaming will be disgustingly awful in whatever OS it ships with. and terrible drivers


type: message
date: 2023-06-11 09:43:43
content:
  why is that surprising? Rec Room with its pre-defined avatars and low res worlds is the perfect example if you don't have much resources to work with


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 02:55:55
content:
  Spacial computing is an interesting way to brand it. I'm not necessarily opposed, given that VR doens't have a huge amount of focus on transitioning traditional compute tasks into 3d. If that's their way of signaling a focus on the computing side of things I'm all for it. However, if it's a locked down platform akin to iOS then it's going to be a bit disingenuous IMO :P


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 17:22:25
content:
  charge up front and then on the first was what was being used before. looks like they changed it to the new subscription option with charge on the day they join then recurring on that day next month


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 17:24:14
content:
  Not to my knowledge, any existing patrons wouldn't really be affected by subscription billing either. It'd continue on the 1st of each month.


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 17:26:17
content:
  It also appears it isn't something you can undo when you switch to it as a Creator. (since you change when patrons are paying)


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 17:32:42
content:
  That doesn't appear to be the case anymore? Signed out I see "You’ll pay $12.00 monthly on the 12th."


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 17:33:51
content:
  To my knowledge it has just been the charge immediately and then monthly on the 1st. and at some point recently that was changed it seems


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 17:58:41
content:
  Not sure then? sounds more like a patreon bug if it is supposed to be on the subscription thing now?


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 18:01:10
content:
  I do agree that system is kinda dumb though because really no matter when you sign up on it you will always either need to wait the majority of a month for storage to be applied or be double charged in a short timespan.


type: message
date: 2023-06-12 18:53:41
content:
  Hi everyone, I’m Batis. A big fan of NeosVR. I was told I should come to the telegram to try reach out to the C-level team. Can anyone help me get in direct contact? I want to talk about a business opportunity and investing.


type: message
date: 2023-06-13 07:38:18
content:
  Hello  
  I am graphic designer ,my services include creating :
  New logo 
  Telegram Customized static sticker 
  Telegram Customized animated/moving sticker 
  Gif 
  Banner 
  And promotional videos 
   Kindly reply if my service is needed


type: message
date: 2023-06-13 17:33:09
content:
  Yup, and the site still says 48 hours. Is there anyone else who can either transfer NCR or get ahold of Karel ?


type: message
date: 2023-06-13 17:35:26
content:
  I mean Karel is often a bit unresponsive and we don't know what he is currently doing, but he will do it sooner or later. Kind of not what you want to hear in that case, but its the truth.


type: message
date: 2023-06-13 17:40:25
content:
  Yea sorry just super confused I totally didn't take any of this into consideration when I was transferring it, I'm just trying to buy more storage. World building get difficult when you can't save 😂


type: message
date: 2023-06-14 21:08:01
content:
  hi, can I ask for help here?

  trying to play on SteamVR Linux + Proton 8.0 with Index controllers, fingers move as expected, but the "grip" control does nothing; I can't pick up objects, scale or anything for some reason


type: message
date: 2023-06-14 21:31:18
content:
  you may get more help if you ask on the neosvr discord
  did you try checking legacy controller bindings and see if grip is bound?


type: message
date: 2023-06-15 06:13:40
content:
  it isn't... >->

  1.14 is still the only version without graphical glitches but it's ancient and has no overlay, although for the purpose of Neos, all versions are fully featured.

  that said, SteamVR is yet another project that Valve initially did well, but ruined over time


type: message
date: 2023-06-15 06:15:28
content:
  from limited testing though, despite near flawless performance of Proton in most cases, not all games work (embarrassingly, Half-Life: Alyx fails miserably)


type: message
date: 2023-06-15 18:24:59
content:
  I'm just annoyed when I get out of work, I have to update my dumb tome I made last night that summons AI Jesus's Twitch stream, since it just got restored.


type: message
date: 2023-06-18 14:01:55
edit_date: 2023-06-18 14:19:30
content:
  He's probably using the money for a fat juicy vacation rn, no white paper for this time being until he's back


type: message
date: 2023-06-19 11:29:01
content:
  At this point, I am expecting little from white paper.

  Maybe surprise with development restart or new ceo, otherwise, the situation is clear now.


type: message
date: 2023-06-20 06:58:12
content:
  I'm just busy planning for the more likely situations. All involve a lot of work. But I still develop new ideas and systems.


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 09:55:52
content:
  I kinda see it like the UAC Update from VRChat. There was/is no better alternative so that people can switch to other platform and if it was the case with Neos -> they would have kept updating it. But since theres probably an awesome alternative, that is being developed secretly -> they work silently on something new


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 09:55:57
content:
  but yes, considering the things that froox learned over the last 10 years and the small problems in many parts of the project, i bet on a re-developed project under froox


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 09:58:33
content:
  would solve pretty much all the problems. The code that is owned by the company that can't be taken, would no longer be relevant and froox has the rest of the developers under him, so...


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 09:59:10
content:
  to make it clear, i have absolut no insider knowledge, its just what i would do (from the perspective of another developer)


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 10:02:01
content:
  there was a lot of movement in the last month. New company for example. Lets just wait a bit more. Considering we waited years by now, i can wait another half a year to see what comes out of that.


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 10:03:27
content:
  Disappointment is a feeling I have as standard for it right now x3 Would love to be positively surprised tho


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 10:23:20
edit_date: 2023-06-21 10:23:33
content:
  It honestly feels like tabu for the current owners to touch anything Neos related. Froox is working on something else. Karel is building other businesses, etc. No one is touching Neos


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 10:25:50
content:
  Through theories and some data mining we speculate the creation of a new platform from Froox.

  Through social network of Karel we saw him creating his new business CyberTaxi and using the money invested in Neos for his private purposes.


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 10:27:04
content:
  None of them want to say anything regarding Neos or whats going to happen to it, neither do they say the reason why they cant/dont want to say it


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 10:51:46
edit_date: 2023-06-21 10:52:08
content:
  Thats not how it is. If noone is developing for neos (or very close to it) the programers would be no longer there since a long time ago, same for froox that is online every day in neos. Whatever they doing is very closely neos related.

  For why it is tabu for the owners to touch anything, this is because of the impass in ownership. I know that karel don't want to hear the wording i use... divorce... but it is literally what it comes out of. Programming for neos is kind of like paying into a joined bank account. That works fine until one of the parties or both want a divorce and have a fight around this joined bank account.

  As such, noone wants to pay into it anymore, as ownership is not clear.


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 10:53:32
content:
  So its less about not making money/programming stuff as in not releasing as a joined efford, because it is not any longer.


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 12:10:01
edit_date: 2023-06-21 14:23:43
content:
  to buy something, someone needs to sell something. If any one of the two owners would have sold even a single %, it would have been a tie-break and the sitation would have been solved years ago (thats an opinion)


type: message
date: 2023-06-21 21:57:20
content:
  Irony, since Karel already admitted to wanting out, which I'm guessing are their shares being on the table.


type: message
date: 2023-06-22 00:41:47
content:
  after a year, I'm doubtful that any investor really even cares. Even then, if that was the case, wouldn't that be from his 50% or would it be a margin that pulls from both ends as their own pool?


type: message
date: 2023-06-22 00:44:28
content:
  im just hoping that with whatever happens there will be a platform that offers the same freedom of Neos, even if its not Neos, i hope it is


type: message
date: 2023-06-24 17:56:52
content:
  I would love to propose a partnership with Swagga, a Metaverse play to earn server that I am a Collab manager for.

  I am the Collab/partnership manager for Swagga discord server, and with your permission, I would like to tell you more about them and post their social links.

  They have 66k followers on Twitter and 35k discord members


type: message
date: 2023-06-25 00:27:45
content:
  I'm still very confused with the business offerings. Like, do people who propose them even do their homework?
  "Hi, yes, I have a great idea: let's propose a partnership with another company who has had zero updates over the course of an entire year and is locked in a disagreement. It'll be great!"


type: message
date: 2023-06-25 01:55:13
content:
  I learned a word today. (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jeet if anyone else is confused)


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 17:07:25
content:
  any updates for ncr , as we could see bull market is starting slowly , i think
  should be good time
  to announce something , so we could start building NCR price 😀


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 17:13:48
content:
  staking and some other updates is much better than 2 years of silence .. i myself got big part of ncr in my pocket , still have some fools hope that it could get back at some point where it was before


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 17:14:46
content:
  The CTO said that the code is his personal property for some reason and didnt share with new devs, didnt open source as promised either


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 18:01:38
edit_date: 2023-06-27 18:02:18
content:
  Was it in the contract that the code would be a property of Solirax? Because if yes, then it's illegal to keep the code away from the Solirax


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:06:44
edit_date: 2023-06-30 21:21:43
content:
  I don't know how being open-source is some magic bullet. A project can only continue to thrive when it can stand on its own, but Neos is still in an incubator at this point,. Releasing the code for "the community" to improve upon will result in early splinters of versions that split the so-called community even further.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:09:40
content:
  Im just curious if this can be somehow ruled by law, so theres no weird communication with either party having another party to ask/beg for something


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:09:48
content:
  Open sourcing a project helps in that anyone can contribute and create Neos Cloud compatible clients. Right now noone is conteibuting. The data format is quite universal there is no need for fragmentation.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:12:02
content:
  Lol no I’m not starting a new company at this time, Cybertrucks are not even available at this time and probably won’t be in Europe at all (charging port housing too small to go from NACS to CCS, crash regulations incompatible)


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:12:58
content:
  Hmm... the issue would be enforcing it, as the Neos Cloud does allow various versions to still connect, but not communicate between eachother. While it may be linked by a central system, it'd be fragmented by experience. A kingdom of only kings, if you will.
  I am not saying it can't work if done right: Linden Lab has done this with Second Life, where the client is open source, but the server isn't. However, this was back when the major foundations were established and heavy rules were set about client experience differences.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:14:09
content:
  Why would it be fragmented? Most people would use the best fork and there would be so much more people if Neos got improved


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:14:52
content:
  Even the few moat popular branches would possibly have orders of magnitude more users that what we have now


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:16:03
edit_date: 2023-06-27 19:16:12
content:
  so sessions would operate similar to the plugin system now using the compatability hash to join same clients but different clients cant interop or as you call them forks or branches ??
  since if a field type doesnt exist on one client but on mine it does and they try to load it while im in the world they will crash.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:17:14
content:
  honestly wish for a similar system to gmod like u join a server and the client proactively downloads and loads it keeping interop between all types of servers


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:17:53
content:
  That'd... result in so many versions...
  Yes, on paper and by clear logic, people should gravitate to the most ideal choice. However, as seen in practice around the world... this is not the case.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:20:07
content:
  To be fair, what does it mather? It will not happen. If the two owner would find a solution togehter, it would have happend now years ago. Personally i think neos would die as an open source project, but i would love to be proven wrong by attempts to do that. But why do we talk about that now? Has something major changed? Or is it again wishful thinking?


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:20:08
content:
  Theres almost infinite amounts of operating systems and web browsers and most people are using one of two or three. Noone is arguing of close sourcing them so its less fragmented.. market. Let devs and users find what works best.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:21:52
content:
  Don’t see how. As long as Neos Cloud works it lives. On the contrary it would move forward improve and thrive.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:23:06
content:
  Yes but... web browsers all agree to talk on equal terms with HTTP and HTTPS. Neos isn't an established full protocol like HTTP, FTP, SSH, and so on, so even if the entirety of say the neosdb protocol was explained, it wouldn't matter too much.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:24:20
content:
  Neos Cloud Api would be published and developers would keep it compatible if they want to keep compatibility, don’t see how thats a problem


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:24:23
content:
  Know what? I said it again and again, it doesn't mather what i think. I would be so happy if any split of the project would finally happen, but it doesn't look like it. Froox wants his child to develop and thrive, but obviously want to choose the way and does and continue its development himself. I have seen no sign of another group that has interest in its development so far, but if it exist, it would only mather IF the code is made open source.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:26:27
content:
  A company is not a marriage and exiting a company is not a divorce, code isn’t a child these shortcuts are very misleading.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:26:37
content:
  This is a run-around on a theoretical solution that is not happening. If it would happen, why now and not years ago? And if nothing changed, how we even talk about it?


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:29:10
edit_date: 2023-06-27 19:29:24
content:
  It is obvious that the rift between you and froox is bigger than any chance of you working togehter, ever again. But any solution would need for an efford to make this project open source, probably a redevelopment of any part that is not up to par for open source (like all the nice parts of the code that technically needs to be licensed)


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:29:49
content:
  "if they want to" and... that's the problem: the moment it's optional... you can pretty much just split up the... what, 150 users or so?
  Say even if the userbase went up 10 fold: the moment you even have two 'popular' flavors, that's roughly 750 users per 'platform,' even on the same system of resources. It'd still a splinter compared to the others made worse with micro splinters.
  Neos isn't in the position just yet to have a split formed or made a possibility. In the future, when thriving? No issues, and it could absolutely improve innovation as anyone could hope.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:32:46
content:
  Its the reality of software development. You can't just remove every part you may need to license differently in most any case


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:33:34
content:
  You could publish it without and then either get the license or rewrite the part after whats the big deal?


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:33:40
content:
  Its literally like baking a cake and removing ingredients after. Nothing is that modular. It needs massiv redevelopment that has to be done by someone, and noone currently does.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:34:44
content:
  Well... I could see a 'super' decentralized build being a thing, given the theming and all that. Something that natively used IPFS or such I could see being a replacement.
  However, the larger issue is if other third party storage offerings were brought in, and such systems only work with those flavors. We do see this a bit with competing cloud services, and while APIs 'can' exist to bridge everything, it isn't an unknown issue. Not the most keen example, but more of the guidance towards the mindset, if you will.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:35:51
content:
  If one does look for problems you will find problems, I’m trying to look for solutions and open sourcing is a great one


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:37:36
content:
  So lets start at the first point. I suppose as you make this suggestion again, that something major changed. You two finally got lawyers involved and drafted a paper togehter where you decide on how to make this software open source or sell it to one of the parties?


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:39:04
content:
  hmm.... no. Being open source is no longer a selling point. It's more of just flavor text in the current market. It's basically become like how "the cloud" was the big, hip thing in the late 2000s.
  It can help, but it needs something to build off of other than itself. As to what that is... well, I'll admit I am not sure I could give a solid answer. I'd say look at reviews from users and go from there? UI element complaints, strange stability issues on some systems.

  Like: "Neos UI Overhaul and Establishing Source Under GPL" or whatever.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:43:05
edit_date: 2023-06-30 21:24:53
content:
  How do I put this: banking on the code just being available for anyone to edit, push, or fork, doesn't solve any of its issues. With too few users as is, on just the baseline system, even if 100% of all online users right now become C# coders overnight, it'd still change so little.
  I know the GitHub has an issue tracker that is still, even to this day, updated, but not everyone realistically is a developer.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:44:02
edit_date: 2023-06-27 19:44:17
content:
  It solves the issue of Neos devs not having Neos code. Outside of that it helps any third parties who want to help.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:49:28
content:
  Hmm... I guess I have the Red Hat situation on my mind, in addition to past ventures that were open source and heavily leaned on it as a selling point. Plus, without inquiring about such, I'm guessing many emails sent your way were also parties with an explicit interest in offering support should the availability be made possible.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 19:51:31
edit_date: 2023-06-27 19:52:10
content:
  No most of it were groups that needed features added (most of them pretty universal and useful everyone would appreciate) and were willing to invest resources in improving Neos


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:06:59
content:
  Do you think the Patreon model (not Patreon itself perse, but the paid storage model) could pay for the cloud or was that model not sufficient for funding Neos?


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:08:16
edit_date: 2023-06-28 00:01:03
content:
  Neos Store can contain anything that you can do in Neos - Avatars, Tools, Gangets, Worlds, Subscriptions, Tickets to Events, Services its almost limitless


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:09:53
content:
  A premium Neos Cloud subscription can certainly pay for Neos Cloud at some point, but I’d be sceptical of it making any profit


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:12:00
edit_date: 2023-06-27 20:12:17
content:
  Funding and profit are two very different things. I was just responding to someoone thinking Neos is making a profit not sure on what exactly.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:12:15
content:
  Hmm... something that concerns me is that the Neos Cloud services are currently only protected due to the obscurity of the protocols it uses. If it's open sourced, say today by an absolute miracle, wouldn't a revision be needed to ensure people's assets remain safe, especially with talks about the store systems?


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:16:25
content:
  Right, but that's the concerning issue: If someone has access to the cloud systems, granted with proper permissions and obviously a secure password to their account, what would stop someone from simply forking the equivalent of a site scraper?


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:16:46
edit_date: 2023-06-27 20:19:01
content:
  It's not all that obscure, in fact it's trivial. Currently the cloud cannot validate asset ownership or grant download rights for assets. Records are protected (to private/public/patreon/group access) which define the collection of assets that make up an item in your inventory or a world. To truly protect assets, some form of DRM would be needed to be able to grant licenses and protect downloaded assets.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:18:41
content:
  If someone has access to cloud systems it doesnt matter whether its open source or not. The api is pretty simple and you can listen to it already. Nothing changes


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:24:44
content:
  Gaining securities or utility tokens that you are obligated to use to support another token holders if their price falls and may use part of it to fund development is not a profit.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:31:46
content:
  Exactly and Eth mint is not revenue thus not profit.
  When developers have access to the code they should be developing. Many funds have been allocated with Community Developer Fund already.


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:34:22
content:
  do
  you have available funds left for some marketing or what ? you guys have such a project such a game you could easily be multi milionares


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:35:17
edit_date: 2023-06-28 01:02:15
content:
  We first have to get things together market after, it makes sense after having Neos Store to be able to generate a profit


type: message
date: 2023-06-27 20:51:04
content:
  remember frooxius is not the only person who works on the neos codebase, there are many who can and do contribute


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 03:26:47
edit_date: 2023-06-28 03:27:27
content:
  naaah nah, it's just one of the very human normal non crypto non scammers we get all the time in this chat


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 03:27:23
edit_date: 2023-06-28 03:27:52
content:
  What do you mean, bitcoin duplicator? How can such a name be a scam? I can tell you about how you can make 3000$ a month from home...


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 16:07:25
content:
  Deflection and claims of blackmail. Investors want update and information. Not a good look. Why in Dubai? Update?


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 18:57:46
edit_date: 2023-06-28 20:19:51
content:
  While Apple calls it a “spatial computing device” as an effort to differentiate itself from Meta/Oculus it very much is a VR headset with passtrough similar to Quest Pro and Quest 3. Minus controllers plus external display and hellishly heavy alloy body. It was too heavy on AirPods Max and will be even worse directly on users face.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:02:06
content:
  Meta/Mark is probably the biggest winner here as it makes VR headsets a legitimate category with Apple entrance making their lead so much more valuable and investments justified internally.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:05:16
content:
  I can agree with that, it certainly brings more legitimacy to their product by having at least some notable competition who's competing for some form of AR/XR


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:08:23
content:
  Maybe even the most notable, it is after all the largest company in the world and one of the most recognizable brands out there


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:10:02
content:
  But still, the $3500 price tag is a big pill to swallow, even for those who are already heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem. Time will tell on how well it sells


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:10:22
content:
  Totally, they don’t have a fraction of the games available on Meta headsets they don’t want any attention on that aspect of things


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:12:25
content:
  Hmm...
  Maybe the best benefit is if a Mac build was possible (which, considering Apple insists on not using a protocol anyone else uses, good luck with that), the fact that Neos has both a Desktop and VR mode, with the VR mode being able to interact with the user's desktop, perhaps could have some weird hybrid utilization of the spatial functions?


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:12:29
content:
  And considering it will probably become obsolete next year with other headsets coming out. Wouldn't be worth the buy


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:13:30
content:
  fair. I mean, we still have the mystical Deckard on the horizons, and who knows how that will play out, but will absolutely become a strong targetting point, considering the current userbase.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:13:32
content:
  The purpose is probably to start an ecosystem before its too late. i don’t think they will sell many either buy it will make devs do a compatible build or at least think about it just to be sure.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:15:48
content:
  Seems a lot like a defensive move to not let Meta rule it all that easily. Competition is good for users so very grateful for it even if I personally wouldn’t like to use it


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:15:50
content:
  Just waiting on Valve to say something. If the specs, features, and price is good, it will get more sales


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:17:13
content:
  Totally, if they could do an Apple Vision headset made of plastic instead of heavy alloy that would be amazing 😄


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:20:44
edit_date: 2023-06-28 19:21:05
content:
  I think their solution for that would be a charger plugged into the external battery, so you can charge while using it and then unplug it so that you can move around. I don't think you would be able to swap the battery in that case without powering It off


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:21:38
edit_date: 2023-07-11 07:02:05
content:
  Hopefully a Nofio approach would be nice as well (2 USB C ports, which can accept power externally or with an attached pack, but at no point loses power)


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:27:44
edit_date: 2023-06-28 19:28:12
content:
  They did showcase more than sitting down too. AR integrated work environment and hanging out with your family (which is a silly thing to wear a headset for). But yeah they seemed to like the idea of people sitting down to watch a movie on the headset


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:30:31
edit_date: 2023-06-28 19:30:53
content:
  Totally, the real time avatars could become quite a killer feature once they get even slightly more realistic. Especially for people who wear makeup looking their best all the time with zero effort will be ultra addictive.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:32:54
content:
  Maybe they will add arms and hands since they have the tracking for it. One thing Meta Horizons has over the Apple Vision avatars is that they have arms and even silly gestures


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:33:00
edit_date: 2023-06-28 19:34:29
content:
  It takes so much time/money to apply a high end one, you can scan it once and have it forever with no effort.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:38:32
content:
  However Meta has project Pixel Codec with comparably good realistic avatars, wouldn’t be surprised if they rolled out theirs first.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:47:33
content:
  The only issue is that it doesn't seem Apple is remotely interested in the OpenXR standard in the slightest, which means... of course, apps for Apple have to basically be exclusive to their system. That'll mean a lot of extra work just for compatibility if performing cross-platform.


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 19:48:57
content:
  Would expect some consolidation eventually but there certainly will be a wide choice of both mainstream and niche hardware long term as is with smartphones


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 20:06:30
content:
  I wonder how the current version of Neos would pass the apple app requirements even, as all functionality has to be included in the app and no code may be downloaded additionally for functionality


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 20:24:44
content:
  there would be if they actually competed.. it seems to me tbh that they are all in their own "reality"


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 20:27:05
edit_date: 2023-06-28 21:12:14
content:
  You cannot even release your own browser on iOS, partially because you'd have to run JavaScript. So you must use iOS browser component, which got the exception


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 22:15:23
content:
  there are apps which facilitate code though such as through "code blocks"
  used to build games although it is arguably with educational purpose


type: message
date: 2023-06-28 23:16:48
content:
  I mean all the functionality is there without additional downloads. Any other content is just preassembled from the stuff you already have I guess.


type: message
date: 2023-06-29 05:34:12
content:
  On the one hand, hating user freedom. On the other hand, needing to at least have the basics or they won't make as much money.


type: message
date: 2023-06-29 14:24:03
content:
  I’d say it’s less about hating freedom and more about making fat stacks but the outcome feels similar at times


type: message
date: 2023-06-29 14:37:04
content:
  I wonder if at any time everyone will be walking around with a headset on on a daily bases just like everyone is on their phone nowadays


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 06:14:03
content:
  Karel  transferred a large amount of NCR tokens to an unknown wallet address. This is a shady, non-transparent transaction


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 06:18:17
content:
  could be that someone actually extracted that amount? You know there are people in Neos who have NCR, right?


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 08:30:31
edit_date: 2023-07-01 16:04:49
content:
  Good catch Yajun, this is a transfer from our cold wallet where we store Neos Account Wallet funds including for our amazing Patrons to hot wallet that will be soon used for automated withdrawhals. I wouldnt say huge as its less than $50k worh of NCR but definitely notable. Of course also automated deposits and many other interesting updates coming at the same time.


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 08:39:55
edit_date: 2023-06-30 09:27:27
content:
  We're concerned that wallets holding over 500,000 NCR tokens could cause significant price fluctuations due to the low liquidity of NCR


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 13:05:16
edit_date: 2023-06-30 13:05:37
content:
  karel quick question do you plan to cleanup the A records of subdomains that are not being used on the *.neos.com for the sake of cleanliness ? since you have 5 subdomains that do nothing

  can be done in the cloudflare panel


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 17:44:26
content:
  Only if it's for "educational" or "development" tools. If you were to bundle a python interpreter into a random app apple would block it.


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 18:06:41
content:
  Yeah, probably. Let's assume that apple's principle motivation here is to prevent arbitrary code execution in environments where it is not expected.

  Let us not forget they are fine with Roblox too.


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 18:07:27
content:
  Well obviously it's because roblox are a big company and therefore rules don't apply to them as much


type: message
date: 2023-06-30 18:09:37
content:
  I generally don't like the iOS ecosystem, but I have a feeling they are going to be a bit desperate for someone to develop a killer app. I have a feeling they are going to be a bit more lenient until they find their stride.


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 03:15:02
edit_date: 2023-07-01 03:15:46
content:
  You can also just find him in-world. He's pretty chill to hang out with.
  Just uh... don't ask about 3D scans. You won't ever come back.


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 03:18:43
content:
  You can find contact methods on our wiki under contact us. 90% of inquiries don't require a contact with Froox. 

  We get business propositions in telegram and discord daily despite asking them to go to hello@neos.com

  So please follow our directions and email hello@neos.com


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 03:21:12
content:
  And IF you happen to meet froox on neos personally, it would be smart not to talk about business on your first meeting. It is very rude to do something to do something like this.


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 03:22:13
content:
  You can ask him how to get in touch for business at the very end and say good by if you insist doing it that way.


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 09:47:03
content:
  you probably already realized but i don't think most people care enough for something like this to happen
  then is it really "for the community" if almost no one wants it?


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 10:07:23
edit_date: 2023-07-01 16:16:24
content:
  It stopped being "for the community" a long time ago.

  Froox obviously doesn't want to patch into a code that he doesn't own and made it clear he doesn't want money for that, similar with the people around him. He just wants the sole ownership of the code.

  And we don't even know the developers that Karel has, we didn't get a chance to speak to any of them or see any results. There is no sign that any of the code will ever be open source at the moment and as long as there is no clear ownership,

  Karel would be stupid to patch into a code he doesn't own as well as Froox would. So i have no idea?


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 14:39:50
edit_date: 2023-07-01 14:41:52
content:
  Actually from what we know cheese production has been started around 7000 years ago. The earliest known written record is Sumerian. 
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cheese


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 16:09:07
content:
  neos is going to hell for now...
  but I see Karel is at least trustworthy business man.
  He's doing great with kids who lack business common sense lol


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 16:13:18
content:
  Well, lets just say that if froox would have the power to fire karel he would have done that already... or karel would have fired froox... as it stands, there is absolutly nothing moving, so it doesn't really mather


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 16:14:31
content:
  Yes, we do run-arounds again. Lets just say there is nothing anyone can do and all the theoretic development and grand plans are meaningless without the ownership of the code being cleared up


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 16:14:52
content:
  And thats not happening as long as both sides give no ground. So it has to come down to a redevelopment at some point.


type: message
date: 2023-07-01 16:14:52
content:
  I would love for someone who has education on this to share their opinion, since we dont have a clue


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 06:21:34
content:
  I am curious if any of the Patreon/NCR issues will get resolved? As NCR is not being credited to Patreon users currently


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 07:42:55
content:
  Patreons are billed when they subscribe, storage is reset to the absolute minimum. Patreons are then billed at the first of the next month, but they don't get the benefits. That's what I heard


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:36:29
edit_date: 2023-07-02 08:39:18
content:
  This is an option thats wasn’t available when I originally made the Patreon account and page, but is actually how things should be. Subscription billing means charging on the day of joining and then on the same day next month.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:38:08
content:
  If Patreon charges someone on joining and then again on the first if you didnt join on the first last month please contact Patreon for a refund. That is not how Subscription billing should work.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:38:24
content:
  Might be more an issue that someone will wait up to a full month before storage benefits are applied to their account.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:38:43
content:
  With this change we have to update our internal systems for tracking rewards. Thank.l you so much for the heads up. ❤️


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:39:47
content:
  This was their initial system to simplify patreon creator payouts. To my knowledge unless you make a new patreon page, this is specifically a one-way opt-in from the previous system.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:41:30
edit_date: 2023-07-02 08:42:45
content:
  Existing patrons before it was switched over will continue to be charged on the 1st as that is what the older system forced for everyone.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:43:17
edit_date: 2023-07-02 08:43:30
content:
  I’m glad they finally did it the right way so people can get rewards fast and not be charged too soon. The previous two options Monthly billing with no upfront and Monthly billing with upfront payment were both bad in different ways.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:45:13
content:
  They have some documentation for if it makes sense for a given project type to swap to it or to be on one of their other billing options. It doesn't makes sense for all project types and also depends on what and how any rewards are done.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:47:56
content:
  In case you are interested in that. https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/8779192853261#decide-subscription-billing


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:48:12
edit_date: 2023-07-02 08:48:29
content:
  We could try getting it switched back via support but since we have to rework these systems anyways it might be better to keep this better billing method and make it work better than before.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:50:18
edit_date: 2023-07-02 08:50:29
content:
  Best would be to stay on the new subscription method and work towards the rewards not being tied to the 1st of the month. Also fairly sure they can't/won't swap pages back to the old model.


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 08:52:21
edit_date: 2023-07-02 08:53:58
content:
  Trying to switch Patrons that joined on Subscription to Monthly seems quite hard with partial refunds or something like that


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 12:46:20
edit_date: 2023-07-02 12:48:45
content:
  https://imgur.com/a/vaipD1L

  Patreon does not issue refunds as its up to the creator to issue them, this is from Patreon support on this issue of the double charging


type: message
date: 2023-07-02 16:31:33
content:
  Yeah I'm basically just missing two months worth of Gunter Teir NCR... Which I was gonna use for my headless to have more storage lol


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 07:54:32
content:
  This is not how Subscription billing works, you get charged immidiately after joining and then on the same date next month, not on the first. That’s how “Monthly with upfront” used to work and we never used it for that reason. Only used “Monthly with no upfront” to not double charge.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 07:57:05
edit_date: 2023-07-03 12:34:05
content:
  If somebody got double charged it is purely a technical glitch on Patreon’s side. It’s possible the two payments could be closer than usual as the last may have been delayed but there cerainly shouldn’t be more. Please send me screen if this happened to you will bring it up with Patreon support.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 08:01:53
content:
  Please have an eye on Patreon Messages too, as this might effect a lot of new users and people who changed their tier.

  Patreons adwise is to contact the patreon owner over there.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 08:59:01
content:
  also, people have noted subscribing and not receiving benefits. They are in the patreon channels in discord, but no updates to their account in badge or balance


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 10:33:38
edit_date: 2023-07-03 13:06:28
content:
  As Karel said, apologies for issues you are experiencing and we are working on fixing it and on creating a better system all together, but in a meantime, if you think you have been double charged, please email your details, screenshots and Patreon nickname/email to hello@neos.com or DM me and we will promptly look into it. Thank you ☺️


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 10:54:49
edit_date: 2023-07-03 10:55:03
content:
  It probably should be announced in Discord or/and as a Patreon Notice to reach all affected People.

  This channel isnt really an official Channel to provide Info for everyone.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:11:43
edit_date: 2023-07-03 13:36:13
content:
  This is the official communication channel, Discord has been hijacked by a former contractor and cerainly isn’t an official channel. We’ll be removing it from our website during the next update. We’ll be sending email to everyone when the new system is up and running.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:18:55
content:
  That IS true Draconas, but isn't what it is about. For Karel, as in from that side of things, it is something out of his control.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:19:49
edit_date: 2023-07-03 23:37:27
content:
  A Discord channel being useful and a source of community support doesn’t make it official. That is up to the company. Right now it’s not controlled by Solirax hence not official.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:23:51
content:
  Doesn't make what Karel says untrue (to keep as neutral as possible here). Ingame is mostly in control of the developers and developing crew.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:25:39
edit_date: 2023-07-03 13:25:50
content:
  Cant argue with that I guess. Although to be fair it seemed like noone was doing anything. Not just one or the other side


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:26:59
content:
  Well, noone is doing anything because of the inpass with code ownership so... the only thing done right now is keeping the infrastructure running. Discord makes unofficial ingame support, Karel here makes official support for anything related to infrastructure


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:27:57
content:
  This split of workload is to keep neos "alive" in the sense of working. Noone wants to shake that tree (hopefully) but perhaps its required to finally make it break down..


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:33:04
content:
  Yes obviously. If he would not be, the problem would be finally solved. He would probably create a new project that is named different and is a new VR software and Neos would be ... getting new programmers or die. I don't know but i mean seriously. The situation exist because both Karel and Froox hold onto the sinking ship kind of ;)


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:33:21
edit_date: 2023-07-04 11:03:44
content:
  Ok this is how companies work - shareholders (owners) elect executives amd those executives hire employees and act on behalf of a company


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:34:43
edit_date: 2023-07-04 11:03:48
content:
  Shareholders can vote but obviously Froox doesn’t have enough votes and is rather stalling hoping for not sure what


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:37:53
edit_date: 2023-07-03 13:38:15
content:
  Great to hear Karel, i am hoping for the best for this project than. Yes if you want to take control of this project, it might be best to actual remove inofficial channels from the website and out of Neos ingame, so that we finally get the split that makes things go forward.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:38:38
edit_date: 2023-07-03 23:36:13
content:
  I am also very interested in the new project Froox creates and expect that most of the team will move to that project.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:41:34
content:
  Statements trying to induce fear, uncertainty or doubt regarding Neos or Neos Credits manipulating its price on exchanges


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:43:47
edit_date: 2023-07-03 13:44:08
content:
  I don't agree with Karel deleting comments and messages, but in the end it is his channel and he is the CEO of Neos. So lets just accept that for now and see what Froox has in the works ;)
  I will watch both projects with great interest.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:45:20
content:
  Is there a reason for the other owner to be so silent about the whole situation? Is it because he resigned and doesnt want or cant make statements on behalf of the company?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:46:43
edit_date: 2023-07-03 20:21:57
content:
  No it’s not. That is a personal theatric decision trying to induce some emotional response from the community. We’ve been over this many times.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:48:12
content:
  It’s a big undertaking that took a lot of time and effort to do especially in an environment where we get attacked daily.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:52:18
edit_date: 2023-07-03 13:52:43
content:
  I think its inevitable when theres a big(kinda big) community waiting for something they have been promised, but not delivered for some time. I think the solution would be to start slowly making official announcement on updates, on plans etc etc. Chatting here seems like a youtuber answering in the comment section


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:53:25
edit_date: 2023-07-03 13:53:57
content:
  Plenty of places to do that including the unofficial Discord channel. Not sure why this channel should be the place for that.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 13:54:10
content:
  I think best would be not a group where everyone can chat, but an announcements channel, with possibility to comment


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:00:28
content:
  https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09279564/officers - also isn't this out of date and needs it information updating


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:03:02
content:
  ah i saw that tweet once for a universe and then the url redirects to neos so was just curious thanks for the explination


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:04:48
content:
  If someone resigns from the company, its the responsibility of another director to tell companies house and also to keep the records updated


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:06:52
content:
  Well as a Neos Credits holder I would not like a CEO or a team that ignored FUD on their official channel.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:09:59
content:
  Statements trying to induce fear, uncertainty or doubt regarding Neos or Neos Credits manipulating its price on exchanges.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:10:48
edit_date: 2023-07-03 14:11:01
content:
  also karel question, whats your opinion on third partys such as myself making solidity contracts that use ncr as the utility token for said contract


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:12:24
edit_date: 2023-07-03 14:12:56
content:
  That would depend on what the contract does and how is it presented. Might be great and userul, might be damaging hard to say without any details.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:13:03
content:
  maybe write up some usage guidelines on it that others can adhere to might be a good idea i have nothing in mind was just curious


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:17:33
edit_date: 2023-07-03 14:17:54
content:
  It'll export everything, although they won't be directly usable as they don't include file extensions


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:22:29
edit_date: 2023-07-03 14:22:51
content:
  Ah it looks like there is a branch that figures out mime types and makes a file extension for it

  https://github.com/GuVAnj8Gv3RJ/NeosAccountDownloader/tree/feat/mime


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:23:01
content:
  If you really want to make a backup, just do it with the tool. The problem of extracting/converting can come later


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:24:52
content:
  You are able to export photos from in-game using either the context menu option to export neos photos or via the file browser although slower and not really suitable for large amounts of photos at a time.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:25:34
content:
  The thing is that if you export it with the tool, it will have all the information, but they will still be as neos requires them


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:25:35
content:
  If you use steam, it is also likely that steam already has saved many of your photos as steam screenshots


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:26:00
content:
  For example, an avatar will not be an FBX but a thing with hundrets of references to other neos files that you exported as well


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 14:37:59
edit_date: 2023-07-03 14:38:19
content:
  What's stupid is the price for them, like 20 bucks for a decent one, more if you want to add things to it like caramel sauce


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 17:51:42
content:
  I'd think so, but the fact that I tried to gift a friend storage 3 times without it deducting anything makes me a bit concerned


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 17:52:10
content:
  This is pure speculation... but NCR can't be received/send if you don't have a 2 factor on your account


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 17:55:02
content:
  but it could be that the target account needs 2 factor to actually use the NCR? Again, just guessing based on the security messures taken


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 18:52:57
edit_date: 2023-07-03 18:54:43
content:
  Good point, well, i am sure Karel has a big support team that will handle that request in a minute. Just be patient (:P)


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:16:23
content:
  I see you did a lot of changes of your subscription in May, changing tiers, deleting and resubscribing thats probably why the system got confused. The payment made on May 27 was refunded just now. Thank you so much for supporting Neos Cloud. ❤️


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:17:17
content:
  Totally everyone is going to get those when the new Neos Account Wallets are up and running. We are on it. 👍


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:18:24
content:
  Also some of the community are curious what an "Universe" is supposed to be? since the NeosHeadless has an "universe-id" field...


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:20:07
edit_date: 2023-07-03 19:20:52
content:
  That can be used for example for companies or schools that want to have only their own content visible, you could call that their “universe”. Sanju.co would probably use that content separator as well.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:21:49
content:
  I know I'm a little late. Isn't this a little sketchy? To prune a chat history of negative community commentary so your product only looks like a positive investment?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:24:03
edit_date: 2023-07-03 19:24:23
content:
  Its more what the word is actually implying. Usually all the worlds are in the same "universe" and you have all that nice bubbles that shows all the neos worlds. A universe id can filter that down to the worlds that down to worlds with that ID. Might be very useful if you have... a school... and don't want to mix up school worlds with public worlds


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:25:54
content:
  I am interested in the possibility of certain aspects of neos becoming open sourced (obviously not the ENTIRE project), would definately somewhat help the modding community as well as potentially allowing the community to fix bugs they have found, and if you choose the correct license for the source code, it wouldn't be difficult to keep legal ownership of your code


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:27:00
content:
  I am sure that if Karel gets/has sole control of the code he will do that... at least he said that. But perhaps we should not start the discussion again until things change and make this a possible reality


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:29:25
content:
  I was more in reference to the fact that the code that the community could contribute, would retain ownership by those who would own it


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:30:42
content:
  Depending on the rules the code is made public. There are different licensing ways and different ways to divide or prevent ownership. Kind of also a discussion if that really happens.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:38:02
content:
  Brand names and legal entities are often very different Yum! Brands runs KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:39:09
content:
  I'm still a little hung up on the message deleting. Redacting a public history is a big nono in my mind if the messages aren't actually obscene or anything. If the channel/group does not belong to you but to Solirax and Neos, are you deleting messages on behalf of an official Neos or Solirax policy somewhere? Or is it your own desire to protect NCR from FUD?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:40:34
content:
  I mean, i wouldn't do it, but its in his right. I disagree with what Karel is doing, but... i mean he is the CEO, right?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:42:04
edit_date: 2023-07-04 11:08:25
content:
  We are a company and we are free to set rules as we see is the best. I think we defined what FUD is. When there is crypto and trading involved it can’t be as relaxed.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:42:07
content:
  Is that so? Hmm... so under what rules is this chat even running? I mean i think local rules should apply?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:45:31
content:
  From a User/Consumer perspective, the best move in that regard is to create an new *official* discord


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:47:16
content:
  I mean more modding just comes with the territory of being community interactive. Plenty of people volunteer to mod for these things


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:48:39
content:
  Most companies running a social platform don’t have an official Discord as that is their competition 😄


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:50:16
content:
  Additional community interaction probably shouldn't be feared as a hinderance to a social platform's development though, it doesn't bode well.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:55:41
edit_date: 2023-07-03 19:56:10
content:
  The community is pissed off and wants for things to get better, for that a lot of work has to happen and thats our priority. Opening a new communication channel in that situation is as productive and fun as rubbing sand in your eyes.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 19:59:48
edit_date: 2023-07-03 20:41:58
content:
  I'd probably point at most companies running social platforms don't need to have as much of a presence on another social platform as they directly have their own(twitter/facebook/reddit) . I don't think social vr platforms(neos, vrchat)/ social games are exactly comparable and would much closer follow how a game related company would run things. Of which having a presence on one or several social platforms outside of their game is very common.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:07:13
edit_date: 2023-07-03 20:07:38
content:
  Personally I dont see a reason for it as it was, according to information I can find, created during the timeframe in which "NFT's" and "crypto-coins" were being mass produced like crazy because it was  a 'trend'


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:08:36
content:
  While I'd say that both in the context of neos makes some sense to have equal priority to integrate them together, I don't think that comparison lines up. the iPhone relies on the services around it to work as anything more than a phone with texting*. Neos doesn't lose major functionality from NCR


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:10:40
edit_date: 2023-07-04 11:09:28
content:
  There are multiple reasons. Probably the most important one is that a truly free metaverse needs a truly free payment system. That means optimally no central entity that would be the weak point and certainly no banks and payment processors that effectively censor the content on most of the web beyond state laws.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:10:41
content:
  There is also separation to a degree in the apple case where the full priority of the company could be either and it wouldn't change to much as they still have a full team dedicated to both either way


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:11:46
edit_date: 2023-07-03 20:12:08
content:
  Or at the very least be flexible to allow multiple payment options and conversions between them so any individual service isn't as important


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:11:51
content:
  Blockchain is decentralized and thus free and virtually unstoppable. Thats what Neos should be as well. Technology that could make it decentralized exists and should be worked towards.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:13:18
content:
  then in theory providing the means for users to make their own backend servers, and maybe even have them cross communicate, would be pretty good for the community and that goal


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:13:55
edit_date: 2023-07-04 11:09:55
content:
  Yea Neos being open source is I think very important, it can’t and shouldnt be controlled by one guy forever


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:15:19
content:
  Oh sorry, Solirax. Thats nice... so why is Solirax powerless to actually execute their decission then?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:16:32
content:
  Some amount of that already exists although limited to neos pro licensing for institutions and similar so they can run their own cloud for assets and such. I don't know fully on if that also includes logins or sharing between 'clouds'


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:18:25
content:
  You ahve said the person (if you are implying the same one I am thinking of) is both an employee, which means they are beneath you in the chain of command, and co-founder


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:20:28
content:
  Is there any updates on the current legal battle?? I heard rumors back when I first started playing Neos that there would be an update back in march but...


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:20:58
content:
  So i've been getting this error recently when trying to save anything - http://aka.ms/cosmosdb-error-429


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:23:49
content:
  i see the issue has been reported on the github, which looks like the cloud doesn't have enough request units, which would show its overloaded https://github.com/Neos-Metaverse/NeosPublic/issues/3914


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:27:40
content:
  Yea we cannot afford to grow our Cloud at this time. Patreon has been decreasing while costs have been increasing. Working on selling some crypto assets to be able to afford more resources. These things need a lot of funding and that has been problem for about 8 years now. Neos Credits saves Neos again as it did multiple times already. And then I get asked why blockhain. 😄


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:29:09
content:
  It feels more like its actually been downgraded, because there is no real upturn in users on the platform


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:30:32
edit_date: 2023-07-03 20:32:53
content:
  You could see about getting the backend capable of allowing users to donate their own hardware to storage and the like,


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:30:43
content:
  As you said finances are a problem, I can understand the RU's being lowered to help elevate the cost


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:32:18
content:
  That would be amazing to do in a secure encypted way. There are multiple decentralized projects capable of this tech and I would like for Neos to adopt on eof them very much. Have been talking about it since before co-founding Neos.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:40:16
edit_date: 2023-07-03 20:40:40
content:
  With moving to a different one being a matter of a few clicks and not a matter of losing most of your family as IRL.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:45:09
edit_date: 2023-07-03 20:45:22
content:
  I mean, a system hosting media files in the format neos saves would be simpel. Encrypting that is simple as well, since public key cryptography was invented. But there is the most important question. Are new programmers are already on board and working on anything related to neos?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:53:08
content:
  you can access ZeroNet, and it will connect to peer lists like how Torrent works, download the assets you want and seed it for others


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 20:53:42
content:
  Zeronet is effectively if the internet and bittorrent had a child, and hired Tor as the babysitter, is how i describe it


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:00:32
content:
  I recall that was attempted in the past. 3 platforms attempted it, but the issue is the downloading of the data is very slow. Granted, they relied on http gateways, since it was very early on, but even the primary entity hosted ones were... not good.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:01:07
content:
  Yeah, Zeronet works, is a tad bit slow because of alot of less people using it since the main dev left


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:01:34
content:
  yeah. The other issue is that'd remove streaming functions, unless the systems can coordinate byte order


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:04:08
content:
  but at that point, the concept of a central store would... also be meaningless. Even if it did all work, having the data still home in to a central system, as it stands for now, kind of ruins the point of itself if you can just have copies on other networks. People will just migrate to those systems, if allowed


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:07:52
edit_date: 2023-07-03 21:08:02
content:
  im actually curious for transparency's sake Karel , on average what is the monthly server costs? No need for specifics, just an ACTUAL number range that is close enough for the community to understand?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:11:05
content:
  Ah... no.. 10k€ is more realistic (shot in the dark sum) but as said, this could be reduced A LOT by just enforcing P2P for most resources


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:11:33
content:
  Granted, the results were from a very heavy month, during the EAC incident of a competitor's platform, resulting in an influx of potential new users.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:13:19
edit_date: 2023-07-03 21:15:55
content:
  It was ~21k€ and about as official as it gets as Karel shared an invoice here about it a while back. Although yes at a influx of users 5-7x normal


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:15:15
content:
  in fact, I'd dare say the influx of new assets was most likely the culprit. New users coming over, attempting to migrate their stuff. The month afterwards most likely have been less due to caching, assuming the influx of new users didn't change.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:16:18
content:
  Honestly, implementing an one year account data archive policy could be helpful, where it will compress the unused data until the user wants to reactivate their account


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:18:41
content:
  I could store my entire archival data of all my work, and it'd cost a couple dollars. But the moment I want to retrieve it? Time to break the piggy bank


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:23:35
content:
  Security policy enforcement at a very basic level. You can either do it yourself, or have them do it.


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:34:23
content:
  Wait to clear one thing up...Karel made mention earlier of someone resigning... Did they say that Froox resigned?


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:49:27
content:
  Companies house isn't up to date though which is strange. It's usually the remaining directors responsibility to update companies house. Source: hello I am a British person


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:52:15
content:
  I'm assuming such updates are not country exclusive, especially with ownership percentages at they are, it'd require much work either way to ensure it is handled correctly


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:55:54
content:
  also a TM01 isnt allowed to be filed by the outgoing or ex director  the process is a director resigns by submitting a letter of resignation then once thats done the standing director files a TM01


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 21:58:40
content:
  Also, aside from that, the form looks... really really easy? Like even my non-global corporate governance brain can figure it out


type: message
date: 2023-07-03 22:11:16
content:
  Generically most UK government stuff is trying to be nice and simple it often fails but the branding etc is usually friendly


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:18:09
content:
  Its not like he gives away his ownership. His employment status in his own company means absolutly nothing if he doesn't get income and has no control.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:20:04
content:
  There is a board in the sense of decission making. Its to small for an actual board, but thats kind of not the point


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:22:12
content:
  Its so small that ownership means part of the decission making as in "having half the decission of the board" ;)


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:23:21
edit_date: 2023-07-04 11:23:37
content:
  Again, the decission making for the products is the CEO, Karel, but the decissions for the company itself are 50/50 by ownership, so that didn't really change


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:24:21
content:
  If Froox resigned from board also, and there is only Karel on board member, Karel has 100% power over Solirax for some years (maybe 1~2)


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:25:38
content:
  Honestly, at this point it can't get worse. If one of them takes control, the other is forced to create a new product. But will not happen as noone wants to give it to the other respectively


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:27:28
content:
  The worst of all is that there is no legal battle we know of, so it comes down to one of the parties creating "something else" or lets say similar


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:30:06
content:
  Its all speculation. But IF that would be true, he obviously would make sure not to work for neos at the same time, because that could be a problem in an actual legal battle


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:32:15
content:
  Interesting to think about, obviously noone knows because we don't even know what and if they work on anything. (true for Karel too)


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:36:11
content:
  We... don't really know actually. If Froox was payed as an employee to program code? Maybe. If Froox was payed for his product? Seriously we don't know. AS far as i am aware it was never defined who owns what, its why a legal battle would actually have been required to clear that all up. But its not happening, so lets see whats next.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 11:39:22
content:
  If it would have been so clear, i would have expected Karel to go to court and sue on handing the code over. So there is only two possible answers for me. a) He is stupid b) He isn't sure he would win


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 15:09:18
content:
  Good morning!   I was wondering who I had to speak with after I have my patreon set up to be able to access the benefits.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 17:25:08
content:
  For storage. There is a guy in the discord on Patreon channel, for NCR, good luck, waiting on new system


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 18:10:33
content:
  The discord is inofficial, as far as Karel said yesterday. As such, official business, like patron, should be handled by the official support


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 18:12:21
content:
  Yes, but the staff is unpayed and unofficial, as such can't give more support as other common users. Patreon issues are an official issue that are under direct control of Karel and the support team of Karel.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 18:35:47
content:
  Its not. For technical questions and help, the inofficial discord is the best place to be. But Patreon has nothing to do with the inofficial Discord or support team. You have to ask Karel, because whatever the team can do is only a stop-gap-messure


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 18:43:40
content:
  yeah, that last notion was why I dropped Patreon support. That wasn't given at all. Additionally, Patreon links to apperently an unofficial communications channel, which is run by Karel so... make of it as you will?


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 18:46:10
edit_date: 2023-07-04 18:52:22
content:
  Is there an ETA on this info being updated? It's a bit misleading if it isn't accurate. The Patreon also suggests Discord as the way to communicate with the Neos team. (It says "us" but that's implicative)


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 18:53:35
edit_date: 2023-07-04 18:54:50
content:
  oh! Karel, on the topic of "decentralizing", why not decentralize the chain of command a little bit? Make it, dare I say, a democracy? You and the other one can put two ideas you both want to happen on the table, make a public post, NOT stating whos ideas are which to prevent public bias, and choose the top two actions and go with them until those milestones are completed?


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 18:55:38
content:
  Well.. I'm sure there are a few, but one immediate problem with that plan is that I think everyone would immediately know who wants to do what lol


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 19:34:44
content:
  Karel who now manages the official Neos moderation team? I believe that has been organized via the Neos Discord thus far via members of the Neos Team and some volunteer mods. But if the previous Neos Team members are now just "impostors" and no longer official then what of the old moderation system? What is the plan to handle currently active moderation tickets? What will happen to the current team of community moderators and their leadership structure? Do you have a plan for moderation moving forward?


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 19:36:36
content:
  The state of moderation also affects Mentors, as the Mentor program is overseen by Neos Moderation per the Neos wiki (assuming that's still an official source of info)


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:00:40
edit_date: 2023-07-04 20:05:42
content:
  Hu... well i assume they will be introduced to us soon. It would put the community at ease knowing that things are under control, a support team is being created and its not actually a shell company.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:04:48
content:
  It's important that we have updates on the state of Neos Moderation and its leadership as soon as possible as that is an actively important part of the general maintenence of the Neos platform.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:06:41
content:
  especially given the security concern that occured last week, and the only team members to respond were the now unofficial team members with a system analysis


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:07:34
content:
  I am looking at tailroot and thinking.. this was harmless, too easy to detect, what if it was a probe for something larger?


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:09:17
edit_date: 2023-07-04 20:12:16
content:
  Moderation, Mentorship, and Patreon rewards were until now handled by members of the Neos Team and volunteers working for them. But because of recent statements from Karel the current Neos Team has been effectively invalidated, which also by proxy invalidates and destabilizes a lot of the current Neos community infrastructure.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:10:04
content:
  Even if it was harmless it’s given food for thought to bad actors who could make it do so much worse.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:10:13
content:
  I can already brainstorm a few other concepts based on similar methods. If someone like me can figure out other ideas, I cannot fathom what someone who really knows their stuff can do.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:10:27
content:
  Well yea. I mean froox resigned, so obviously there now has to be a programming team and a support team added. Perhaps Karel could talk to the Mentors and Moderators to make them official or take even more Support on bord to fill that rolls.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:12:16
content:
  I mean, priority support is on the Patreon. I'm guessing there's going to be concierge for Patreon backers who help pay for the systems?


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:12:35
content:
  Well, so the company is unable to act for Neos. In that case he has to go to court i assume, if he really thinks he or the company owns that code. I don't know... but its important now, or the next "big thing" will simply just shutdown neos


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:14:26
content:
  It obviously is, but there seams to be no support here right now? I assum the moderator team is not yet available?


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:14:34
content:
  It will need to be clarified. This too will need to be clarified ASAP as people who are current financially invested Patrons are owed a service that is not defined or even reasonably attainable given the current state of things.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:15:25
content:
  Seems a bit silly to jump the gun and denounce the only support network before having your own setup..


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:17:08
content:
  Well, i always assum people know what they are doing. I don't assume Froox just gave up his position just because he felt like it, and i don't assume Karel to be stupid to jump the gun without a team or plan ready. I assume things will be fixed in a matter of days, considering how important they are right now.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:21:04
content:
  Honestly it shouldn’t be a couple of days thing. It should be a matter of replacing like for like. You can’t hang and dry people who are being double charged, or those who need support to just hang around and wait for the ‘Official’ sanctioned support to come online. The whole situation is just so silly. I’m sure there is method to the madness. 

  But after almost 2 years I don’t even know anymore.

  I see no problem with what the moderation staff were already doing. And there was no problem letting them clean up shop for 2 years apparently either, and now all of a sudden it’s this big issue.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:24:34
content:
  well, good luck i guess. I still hope that something is moving on the Neos front, as in the engine and software finally wake up and continue development, so that the community can finally breath easy again.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 20:30:30
content:
  I love Neos and the people that go there. And that’s why this never ending deadlock is tiresome. But it also makes me hope that sometime in the near future somehow and someday it’ll actually be done with and everyone can just go back to business.


type: message
date: 2023-07-04 22:38:37
content:
  I've been doing that for just shy of a year, and it's been fine. Granted, I have a lot of NCR to fallback on for extra storage if needed


type: message
date: 2023-07-05 08:07:08
content:
  @Karel Hi. I'm now trying to update neos wiki, but where are we find some patreon features, such as beta SDK / Quest Build. I only know in discord but you said discord will remove from website soon.


type: message
date: 2023-07-05 08:16:02
content:
  At this point in time most patreon rewards are distributed by the discord with the patreon integration, others like storage are applied directly.


type: message
date: 2023-07-05 08:30:38
edit_date: 2023-07-05 11:05:15
content:
  Yeah. but also karel cannot controllable in discord right now; in karel says. so until new discord or update something; like as neosvr patreon, it is good choice to temporary remove discord link.


type: message
date: 2023-07-05 08:35:09
edit_date: 2023-07-05 08:47:41
content:
  I'd argue to not change it until the website is updated to reflect that. So far and as far as I'm aware they've only said that here but haven't made any changes. Even then keeping reference and only mark as unofficial.


type: message
date: 2023-07-05 08:36:24
edit_date: 2023-07-05 11:05:42
content:
  Also to my knowledge karel can still do everything they've been able to before in the discord. I don't think they've been restricted from stuff they previously could do


type: message
date: 2023-07-05 21:14:56
content:
  Hi. I'm one of the mentor leads. We have had no contact from Karel or anyone associated with the new structure that seems to be being implied. 

  There doesn't appear to be a transition plan that involves the organization. That being said, we've just been continuing as usual because we are fundamentally a volunteer group with no additional privileges other than the fancy badge.


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 00:30:20
edit_date: 2023-07-06 00:30:31
content:
  I'm having an issue where the game keeps getting corrupted so, its act like a shadow ban after 10 seconds I'm unable to join on anyone once I leave the game and verify my files it says one will be corrupted.


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 00:31:44
content:
  it was doing it on windows 10 but I was able to join people few months later I upgrade to 11 and Im unable to join people also moved the files to a different drive with no luck.


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 00:58:28
content:
  Make sure your computer has enough storage space. I will usually get a database corruption error if the disk neos is using for database storage is out of space.


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 01:10:14
content:
  It can be a little confusing because the default folders can end up being in a smaller disk even if Neos itself is installed in a massive empty ssd.


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 02:37:16
content:
  Hey Karel, I've been having some trouble trying to purchase storage with my NCR that's in my account in-game. I just keep getting sent to the Neos Bot contact, and nothing happens.


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 02:38:20
content:
  I can also send you my game logs if you need them, but from a quick glance, I don't see any out of the ordinary errors (or at least any that have to do with NCR/storage)


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 05:11:01
edit_date: 2023-07-06 05:12:01
content:
  Hi Lex, glad it finally went through and sorry to hear that you were charged twice. If you can kindly DM me the details - the email address associated with your Neos account and relevant transaction screenshots, we can look at refunding you. Many thanks!


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 17:36:52
content:
  Hi Andrea, would I be able to send you a direct message if I needed help with something related to my account?


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 20:58:15
content:
  Hey I’m the dude from discord took me a week to figure out my password lol it’s been so long sense I last used telegram


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 21:47:53
content:
  Is this to affect the in-game UI elements? If so, are there any plans to release API notes so that people who have made facet tools can update their work?


type: message
date: 2023-07-06 22:03:16
content:
  I've always seen commercials for those services, but have been on the skeptical side. Curious how well it works out, especially if newer techniques were found.


type: message
date: 2023-07-07 03:09:42
content:
  LOoks like he us the owner of an website that tells you which crypto coins are the best for farming at the current moment


type: message
date: 2023-07-07 06:10:46
content:
  I mean... the in game engine already does view statistics on the value of NCR, and thus your balance, and crypto-enthusiasts created fully functional trackers that pulled market data and graphed in real time while experimenting with complex headless environments


type: message
date: 2023-07-07 12:44:18
content:
  oh boy what a can of worms also is universe id's even something default client can do thought that was a pro thing... wait nvm adding it to the neos config works


type: message
date: 2023-07-07 12:53:01
content:
  I mean, currency per universe is just a artficial limitation you can put into the game with any rules you see fit.


type: message
date: 2023-07-07 13:04:04
content:
  yea, i mean neos was always considered to be an open platform for everyone and everything. NCR is just the thank-you-token of neos


type: message
date: 2023-07-07 15:32:53
content:
  Only update seems to needing to bring it up, waiting for either Karel or Andrea to message you, or send an email and hope it stands out from business inquiries.


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 01:42:41
content:
  doing okay. Tinkering with a FreeBSD system, then going back in to wrap up some projects. Already updated a project for Neos


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:19:07
content:
  so im wondering what karel's official stance on users making their own backend servers is?  (my telegram isnt letting me @ them so if someone could?)
  This would aid in making it so neos, like crypto, is not reliant on an single server,


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:25:10
content:
  I can't tell you the stance of Karel (obviously)... but it was the stance of neos that changing asset sources, using it in closed network and offline was not only intended featur but also activly supported


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:26:56
content:
  Well my follow up question would've been about the likely hood of tools and/or resources being provided to allow us to make our own backend servers locally


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:29:54
content:
  so like, I could tell it to go to neos.api.merith.xyz, but I dont have an Neos API server there so nothin will happen


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:30:37
content:
  I am personally not sure, because i never tried. I mean its not intended function of neos, but obviously also not activly prevented. I am not sure if there is a replication of the api-server ready-to-go


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:33:22
content:
  Hence why I want Karel's opinion on the matter, because if we can get an official stance about it, people can create better "closed networks"


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:35:37
content:
  Or if someone wants to setup an NSFW server, they wouldn't have to worry as much about "private worlds", and weird jank for headless's


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:39:36
content:
  universe-id could be used instead of "tags", instead an domain, so like, for an personal universe for me, could be neos.merith.xyz and then it would automatically adjust the endpoints and such


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:40:24
content:
  By that you can keep the universes officially supported and losely connected, including those that would violate public neos rules


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:41:18
content:
  Yeah, there would be the default "official" universe, neos.com, and then there could be other universes under different domains, potentially with their own login systems


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:43:19
content:
  Some universes could be just tags, some using different asset server, logins, rules (school/university)


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:44:26
content:
  I think for simplicity sake, there could be "galaxies" and "universes"
  Galaxies would be what the tags are, 
  and Universes would be servers


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:45:50
content:
  that way it wouldn't be difficult to adjust the ingame code (if it is ever able to be updated due to the stalemate)


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:46:34
content:
  Universe id is by default already a list (or one) world(s). Basicly not on the worldlist of the neos universe


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:53:38
content:
  oh its letting me ping him
  Karel official stance on the previous converstation that took place?
  Do you approve of users making their own Backend Server's for neos? 
  And would you be willing to provide tools and/or resources to facilitate it?


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 03:54:31
content:
  would be neat if a system was established to allow federated operations, which could also ease pain on the poor LNL relay


type: message
date: 2023-07-08 13:17:11
content:
  Allowed, i assume... supportet would be the important thing to make a metaverse (yes now that word) of universes that have different rules but are still all accessable by a click (given Privileges)


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:09:39
content:
  We have already issued a refund to you on Monday as I have informed you in a dm thread you deleted for some reason.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:12:45
content:
  You should probably be handling those in DMs or via email instead of sharing peoples contact info and some of their payment history here.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:15:05
content:
  I have to share something because as always there is fud that we are not solving issues or what not.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:15:34
content:
  I’m not using telegram on this machine and wont for security reasons. I know how screenshoting works.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:18:29
edit_date: 2023-07-09 00:18:42
content:
  I have told you that we made the refund. It can certainly take some time for Patreon, your card company and yoir bank to process it.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:35:23
edit_date: 2023-07-09 10:38:03
content:
  This whole situation is caused intentionally by the same guy who also weaponized a large part of the community towards myself. Really two sides of the same coin.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:51:26
content:
  I'm no historian but I think the situation is a bit more complicated than "he caused all this". You're making him sound like an evil king leading an army against you. I think most of those people just read about the general situation and were in support of his side of things.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:53:40
edit_date: 2023-07-09 10:38:45
content:
  The situation really is quite simple. Guy co-founds a company and then decides that he wants to be in control alone.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:54:54
content:
  There was no point of even venting this publicly if weaponizing the cominity towards myself wouldnt be the goal.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:55:22
content:
  Well, venting is also done because people like talking to people. It can help some folks work through things.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:57:16
edit_date: 2023-07-09 10:39:22
content:
  The Discord has been hikacked by a former contractor, NCR thread gutted and things censored and manipulated. Certainly not going back to that.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 00:59:02
content:
  It does mean that the company has zero control over that discord and misinformation and fud is being spread and incentivized by the admins


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:00:58
content:
  Depends on how you look at it, I guess. Plenty of places in the Discord are just normal community discussion areas. Getting help and working on projects and the like. The admins also do a lot of general assistance unrelated to the goings-on.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:04:59
content:
  I don't think it's intentional. I think, unfortunately for discourse, it just happens that more people are against you than with you. It's definitely consequentially somewhat inhospitable; but I don't think it got that way through some kind of grand plan social engineering, just general discussion and normal collective opinion forming and agreement.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:05:34
edit_date: 2023-07-09 10:40:27
content:
  it's more the fact he doesn't like it because he can't remove someone who disagree's with things or says something he doesn't like


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:08:15
content:
  The inhospitability is a problem only exacerbated by your response of refusing to interact with the larger community in their preferred normal setting, or very socially at all, and instead remaining here where you are the sole lead and the communications are nearly all formal and money-ey. It cuts off a lot of the community from you in a way that they don't experience from the other leads.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:10:18
content:
  Understandable. I think harassment should be called out and handled administratively as well. Preferably as a community and a team though, rather than as the king of a castle.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:10:27
content:
  Being on there is the same as self torture. Just boundless hate even if I’m doing the best for Neos. Not even sure why anymore.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:12:58
edit_date: 2023-07-09 03:45:42
content:
  I would like to politely disagree with that, as most of the discord management, are actually members of the community


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:19:53
edit_date: 2023-07-09 03:46:35
content:
  Many people see the Discord server, the Neos Team, and the open discussion all as part of being a very important part of Neos. You say you're doing what's best for Neos, but the scope of what you consider Neos is radically different than what a lot of the Neos community considers Neos to be because you would rather (and are working to) delete or rewrite those things to suit your goals better. That sort of divide does not need anyone weaponizing it to cause problems between you and the community.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:21:13
content:
  May I have an official answer on my question from the otherday?
  Community made backend servers, are they allowed/approved of their existance?
  And if so, are you willing to provide resources to make it possible to easily deploy them?


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:21:39
content:
  Without anyone weaponizing the users would be glad there is someone working for Neos who got the money from investors to develop it in the first place and came ip with Pateeon and NCR that are paying for it even now.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:23:43
content:
  But with a lot of spare time on your hands and bad intentions you can certainly spend it to antagonize the community towards myself to try to get more control.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:24:34
edit_date: 2023-07-09 10:44:50
content:
  I always believed that people will look at the stuff I’m actually doing but it doesn’t seem so. A good story even when its fake seems to work better.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:26:46
content:
  Not that kind, im talking like the kind that is running on the Azure server, knowledge of how to set one up for say an closed network,


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:28:16
content:
  It would help with decentralization as users could, in theory, figure out how it all works, maybe improve it a bit, and make custom software for the backends to run nicer, could also, if done correctly and worked with the community, save server costs


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:29:50
content:
  where an "universe" is just the backend server, rather than a specific tag, and what is currently known as a universe, would be called a galaxy


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:30:36
content:
  Would help for separation of projects that might not explicitly be acceptable on the normal neos servers (such as an private NSFW universe for example)


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:34:02
content:
  But your official stance on it? would you allow it? and would you provide the tools to do so, or the information of how it works so users can do it?


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:36:21
content:
  My stance has been for a long time that it should be open source making it possible for anyone to manage their own flavor including the cloud.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 01:38:47
content:
  This reverse approach doesn’t make much sense to me at this point, will contemplate the positives and negatives.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 02:41:51
edit_date: 2023-07-09 03:52:59
content:
  The battle between the furry community and Karel continues.The drama unfolds with a new chapter. All discussions in this place seem to involve only furry friends and Karel.The kids are starting to get angry because of unverified statements from Karel


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 02:48:07
content:
  I don't know, but I feel if we're at the point of needing narration for this tale, we better secure a good voice actor XD


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 02:54:22
edit_date: 2023-07-09 03:02:06
content:
  The Neos team always portrays themselves as the victims in this situation. They claim to do everything for the Neos community. However, the reality is that they are weaponizing the community to eliminate Karel from Neos. The Neos team is part of the furry community, so they simply want to protect their furry friends from Karel. Other communities don't have any issue with Karel. Just like the nature of NCR has no connection to Neos unless users choose to use it. NCR also provides financial support for the expansion and development of the project. Neos users themselves have the right to refuse to use NCR, so why is NCR becoming a big issue?


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 03:13:33
content:
  anything to do with even a hint of FUD in relation to NCR, gets a user banned according to many people, and messages deleted


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 03:14:15
edit_date: 2023-07-09 03:14:26
content:
  so what I am seeing of the community's opinion, is that NCR is getting put on a pedastle while they are getting kicked to the dusty porch


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 03:52:47
edit_date: 2023-07-09 10:47:49
content:
  Because the game has been without a single feature update for nearly two years. If you were like us and actually played the game, you'd be in the same boat.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 03:56:02
edit_date: 2023-07-09 10:48:00
content:
  Some of the team members being part of the furry community holds as much importance as what type of socks they wear


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 04:31:18
edit_date: 2023-07-09 04:42:28
content:
  What happend here? Is it about furies again? Neat. Can everyone remember when Froox tried to push everyone non-furry out of neos? No? How about him telling Karel he is a no-fur and is no longer welcome? Not as well?

  Whats going on? Could it be that we have lots of strange and diverse communities in neos, because neos didn't write in their rules that lots of people get excluded for no reason?

  And perhaps that none of that groups have anything to do with the grand problems behind all this nonsens that happend?


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 04:48:39
content:
  id rather have a sock to protect my soft feet. instead of stepping on a floor that people from 1000 years ago touched


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 10:34:18
content:
  Does this "side" of the dev team have the source code for the game? And if not, couldn't an approach for continued development be building updates through the plugins feature of the neos client?
  Like Neos+, that community plugin adds ingame solutions for coingecko integration, stock prices, along with a ton of other things I would have expected in future Neos updates.
  It's just kind of disheartening having no updates for a couple years, and now that there is some activity it's unrelated to this company's flagship product.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 11:07:37
content:
  Can Karel or @malooniac please help me out with an issue. Friend of mine has run out of space. They subscribed to the patreon but it’s not updated their space. And I can’t gift them space with NCR anymore. They just started playing a few days ago and now they are completely sync-locked.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 11:51:22
content:
  >assume house floor is clean and dont wear socks
  >constantly stepping in kitchen gunk
  i think i should wear socks more


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 16:19:08
content:
  I understand that, but it would be nice if someone could set it manually for them as I believe that used to be done in the Discord community by folks that way also. As right now they can't do anything. And they have deleted items and worlds but it's not reflecting in their space quota.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 16:20:29
content:
  As far as i understand it, the, now inofficial, supporters on discord did this and could still do it, but obviously there is insecurity about if that would be ... lawful? ... because the inofficial status


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 16:21:54
edit_date: 2023-07-09 17:35:53
content:
  As such, this is something that should now be done by the support team of Karel, if we think about this in proper terms. Its just really hard to get a hold of them right now? We don't know about who is actually part of this team and how to get in contact with them, beside the mail-adress.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 16:26:07
content:
  I messaged the only two who are to my knowledge are publicly on that team in here, now I'm just waiting is all. I don't mind I just feel bad for Mantle my friend who is currently unable to play really.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 16:27:18
content:
  I can fully understand that and i am very confused by Karel pushing out the current support without replacing them with a reliable team right away. Seams very unproductive to me.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 18:30:39
content:
  Heya I was told this was the place to go to get an issue with my storage rental resolved.
  My intention was to rent 50GB for 24 months, twice so it would stack to 50GB for 4 years (since buying the same amount again stacks time not amount).
  4 times over about 2 hours I: Went through the process, did the 2FA, got redirected to the Neos bot account chat where there would usually be a message about my NCR amount payed and storage received, but there was nothing. Wouldn’t work. Then about 2 hours after that, it all went through at the same time, the first 2 attempts processed, and then the second 2 attempts failed due to insufficient NCR (which is fine, only wanted to buy it twice).

  Anyways, seemingly because it all got processed at once, it didn’t stack properly as intended, so I now have 100GB for 2 years rather than my intended 50GB for 4. Getting that corrected would be appreciated, thanks.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 18:46:57
content:
  You can always try hello@neos.com . The support of Karel and his team is a bit slow at the moment, as the old team has been removed. It might take a while.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 19:49:40
content:
  So, what you are saying is that the community that is being claimed as some hateful entity, is somehow adding more promised features than the new and improved team? It's almost like the community actually do care about the project and are willing to add features that go against the established narrative...


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 19:50:10
content:
  yeah, using @/insertnamehere (minus the slash) is how pings work. More or less the same in the unofficial Discord


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 21:32:14
content:
  They could try spawning some large (synced) items into their Local Home, saving their Local Home, and then deleting those items from their inventory to free up space so the sync goes through.


type: message
date: 2023-07-09 21:34:07
content:
  Additionally, there is a mod called LocalStorage that provides a local storage inventory that can help them store items until the storage is increased on the 1st of the Month


type: message
date: 2023-07-10 01:14:40
edit_date: 2023-07-10 12:40:21
content:
  Hi @AdiusKitty Leah! I am sorry about the issues your friend and others are currently experiencing. We're working on improving the system, as Karel mentioned earlier, so these things should not happen in the future. 
  As for your friend Mantle - I just saw their email that came in about an hour ago. 
  I'll personally reach out to them to address the issue directly. Thank you so much for giving us the heads up. Really appreciate it. 🙏


type: message
date: 2023-07-11 05:52:03
content:
  Why haven't I gotten my increased Storage, I got like the third tier on patreon and it said I should have it within a day. It's been 3 days


type: message
date: 2023-07-11 07:55:54
edit_date: 2023-07-17 19:03:59
content:
  Hi Nick, if you can please DM me your details - your Patreon email and user name and your Neos email, if that differs, so we can look into it for you. Alternativelly you could send it to hello@neos.com. Many thanks and apologies for the inconvenience!


type: message
date: 2023-07-12 01:03:06
content:
  Hello, @malooniac any news on how close of a time frame the new whitepaper will be just want some reassurance not a specific date it's just if I have to wait a few more months I think this might be too mentally draining waiting every day for something.


type: message
date: 2023-07-12 02:04:42
content:
  Agreed. With more changes occurring in the US regarding control over crypto, and the whitepaper's direct link to how the platform operates with it, it has myself and others very concerned


type: message
date: 2023-07-12 06:29:27
edit_date: 2023-07-12 06:35:54
content:
  Karel Sort of got drowned out, and not even sure it pinged correctly, but any word on my storage issue I mentioned above? I understand you are likely quite busy, but would appreciate getting this resolved, thanks.

  To reiterate, not looking for any NCR refund or anything, just trying to get my storage rental corrected from being 100GB for 24 months to instead being 50GB for 48 months as was supposed to happen if not for the purchase processing issue.


type: message
date: 2023-07-12 21:29:31
content:
  Hi Karel and @malooniac 

  Could I request a new group in Neos? I could use it for working with one of my clients. I'll send an email as well but thought I'd start here.

  Thanks for your consideration!


type: message
date: 2023-07-12 22:31:39
content:
  Also, it seems that some of the newer bots have skimmed this channel and send messages directly without joining with non-stop scams. They're now a bi-daily occurrence now


type: message
date: 2023-07-13 02:31:44
content:
  Oh, nice! Any chance I could get a group to work with as well? I've been meaning to get one so I can make use of group variables.


type: message
date: 2023-07-13 19:16:31
content:
  Yes, every Patron get's NCR each month, and being a patron is how you get storage, which you can buy more of with your NCR.


type: message
date: 2023-07-13 19:24:38
content:
  (sending /NCRoptOut to NeosBot on NEOS can opt you out of it, means that you cant get or send any NCR)


type: message
date: 2023-07-13 19:24:57
content:
  Got all of mine (I think it was 1350) from being an honourable mention in the MMC. Only use it has for me is storage rental, so that’s where it went.


type: message
date: 2023-07-13 19:25:18
content:
  (dont click the blue link please, it will just auto send the command to the chat, idk why telegram does that)


type: message
date: 2023-07-13 19:37:48
edit_date: 2023-07-13 19:46:17
content:
  To answer this, you can buy storage for other people. I've been doing this for over a year for newer users, giving them a kickstart on the platform and a warmer welcome as a result


type: message
date: 2023-07-14 02:26:14
content:
  When I tried to send storage like a week or 2 ago, it took 8 hours before I got a confirmation that it sent


type: message
date: 2023-07-14 02:28:03
content:
  That'd suck if people don't know about that being an issue. It may explain why some people have been panicky lately.


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 00:01:45
content:
  Hey, i've been saving a few worlds and those worlds are having sync issues. Has anyone just been having problems with the servers as of recent?


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 00:08:50
content:
  i had issues saving worlds sometimes, it depends though, you checked what the log says the issue is?


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 00:44:24
content:
  I actually did too, but I think it's because the world asset I was saving was massive and I was hitting some kind of rate limit before it could finish syncing. Ended up having to just give up though and use the mod to sync everything else. Ya hate to see it


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 00:56:10
content:
  that and not everyone is keen with a service that flat out asks for your phone number, especially with the rising number of scams going on, not limited to just traditional robo calls


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 00:56:47
edit_date: 2023-07-15 13:23:41
content:
  Honestly surprised Neos isn't using something like Matrix to further the decentralized approach to things


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 00:58:38
content:
  oh shoot, I forgot: you can't register telegram on PC, can you? It always requires the phone validation, and despite its heavy use, not everyone has a phone


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 06:08:08
content:
  You can bridge all your chats to matrix and only use a matrix client :)
  That’s what I’m doing right now


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 14:48:19
edit_date: 2023-07-15 14:48:36
content:
  Actually, you can register a telegram account without a real phone number, it just requires some crypto as payment for a telegram only phone number that can be used to register an account


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 20:56:16
content:
  Yeah, that's a great sales pitch:
  "Want support? Put in your phone number! Don't have one, give another company $250 + exchange fees!"


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 23:13:52
content:
  has the  advantage of being  connected  to your smartphone  and as such you  can receive sms and calls on it


type: message
date: 2023-07-15 23:15:05
content:
  also good for isolating your real number  in case you don't want people   to know your private number


type: message
date: 2023-07-17 01:14:24
content:
  @malooniac Karel been trying to get my storage issue resolved for a good week now; asking on the telegram and also sent an email. Have heard nothing back at all. Some kind of response would be appreciated, thanks.


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 03:44:08
content:
  friend needs storage space and is thinking of the patreon that's having issues, does the dynamic duo resolve said issues in a timely manner? trying to find the best option for said friend


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 03:47:17
content:
  Sadly, there haven't really been any updates in a long time that pointed towards any notable development with merit.


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 04:13:29
edit_date: 2023-07-18 04:15:45
content:
  Not completely accurate if Sloppy is anything to go by. But sometimes it's fine, I've seen issues resolved in here reasonably quickly before. Kinda feels random. I obviously can't speak for the email response speed though, I haven't sent an email myself. Could be faster there (again, excepting sloppy who appears to be having a time getting help anywhere)


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 04:20:37
content:
  To be generous, maybe Sloppy's request is a weird one and takes some time to process. But some communication about it would definitely be better (more convincing) customer service.


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 04:23:05
content:
  i did actually do some tests a year ago and that behavior is exactly the same as before
  you can get it to stack time if it is the only storage purchase you have, maybe when it is a matching size to the total? otherwise it just gives you more storage on top


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 04:26:17
edit_date: 2023-07-18 04:26:51
content:
  We are in touch with Sloppy and are solving his issue that is about storage quota expiring in four years instead of two. I think we’re going to solve that one in time.


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 05:20:45
content:
  Glad to hear that it’s being resolved, but wouldn’t “in touch” imply that I was contacted in some way? 🤔 Sure wasn’t, unless we’re counting this response. 
  Anyways, thanks for getting to it. Was getting a little worried about all forms of communication being dark there.


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 05:33:30
content:
  Hi Sloppy You should find an email reply in you inbox so I suggest we get to resolving it on there, apologies for the wait☺️ Hope you’re having a fantastic day!


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 07:31:44
content:
  Yeah, got the email and responded (for those observing 👋). Day is going about as good as it can with the flu 🫠


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 19:31:56
content:
  I think I also have an issue with Patreon benefits, what would be the best way of contact to talk about that issue?


type: message
date: 2023-07-18 20:33:27
content:
  Feels like the only direction neos is going is a painful, slow death, a lot of talk about things coming soon for months but absolutely nothing to show for it.


type: message
date: 2023-07-20 19:03:41
content:
  So, any news or word on what the plan for Neos is? Now that the development gridlock seems resolved.


type: message
date: 2023-07-20 19:52:21
edit_date: 2023-07-20 19:53:13
content:
  Oh I see what you're saying. I believe Karel has confirmed they are working on a new development, but specific details have not been shared outside of some short statements here and there.


type: message
date: 2023-07-20 20:29:58
edit_date: 2023-07-20 20:30:09
content:
  I think from discussion around that time it was assumed froox isn't an employee but still has his share in the company


type: message
date: 2023-07-20 21:46:10
content:
  I think another large question is... who IS the new dev/dev team then? Not questioning the two remaining's skillsets, but I don't recall either knowing C#


type: message
date: 2023-07-20 21:53:04
content:
  ... it changes absolut nothing actually. Without Karel having the source code and froox having equal shares there is absolut no development that can be expected from any side


type: message
date: 2023-07-20 21:53:36
content:
  You don't have to be employed by a company you have ownership of. Since the language used was resigned, I assume he is still an owner and thus retains everything a part-owner would have.


type: message
date: 2023-07-20 22:09:26
content:
  The site was specificly created because nothing in neos can really  change until there is a YES on that website. There is really nothing else to say. We all want updates,  but there is nothing beside this single thing that mathers in the end.


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 06:46:49
content:
  Does Karel have any plans for the future of the game itself? I don't really see anything being possible with old team neos pushed out.


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 06:49:38
content:
  I try to be as neutral as possible:
  Neos as in the game itself is based on a codebase. This codebase is currently not accessible to Karel. No mather the actual ownership, the simple fact stands that he or his programmers can do absolutly nothing to develop neos right now and as we don't know of any official proceedings, it doesn't seam likely to change soon


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 06:50:16
content:
  at the same time, froox can't update neos, as it would mean updating a product he doesn't fully own with resources he gives into the company for free... he again doesn't fully own


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 06:55:56
content:
  I've brought this up again and again, but plugins are a possibility for continued development w/out source code


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 06:56:32
content:
  For players, yes. If anyone wants to create small addition to neos, the modding community is always happy


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 06:57:51
content:
  For neos as a product obviously no. Many things are already outdated after two years of stand still. The engines used have updates and new versions that need to be patched in. Neos itself was never finished, its a work in progress, its not entirely stable or close to featur complete.


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 07:02:46
content:
  Major thing that needs to be in the core obviously is a physics system (is promissed to be developed.. or at least it was)


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 12:46:00
content:
  It's a fun little Easter egg, if I didn't have a laptop I would use a screensaver that allows a local html file to be used and modify the JS to automatically cycle through Quotes and add a few more


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 14:04:14
content:
  I am sure that is exactly what will happen. The single dev will pull the code of Neos out of his hat, because he is just that good and push a new update very soon. Yes. I can't wait!


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 19:52:19
content:
  I mean if they subscribe to the patreon they can get the SDK and the Debug Enabled versions of neos from the Offi- Wait! There is no Official Discord!


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 20:19:43
content:
  They had a discord, that would actually provide support, and then Karel said they were impostors so they stopped, so the little bit of support that kept the patron manageable (storage benefits), no longer exists and my issue with patreon (missing two months of gunter tier NCR rewards) has YET TO BE RESOLVED


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 20:26:22
content:
  That was in regards of migrating from SystemA to SystemB. Issue is, if you are missing 2 months in SystemA, that quote doesn't specifically state they are honored in SystemB, only that the current balances would be


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 20:28:12
content:
  Until I get more concrete information and verifiable promises, I have canceled my patreon subscription


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 20:29:42
content:
  do not blame you. I've heard other people doing the same, myself included. Shame, since I was onboard for years and appreciated the extra support for headless on the respective unofficial channels


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 20:42:25
edit_date: 2023-07-21 20:43:01
content:
  New system will give Patrons all their NCR including last two months. We have all the info via Patreon API and our database. No worries.


type: message
date: 2023-07-21 22:46:41
content:
  I purchased 20gb additional space with NCR and had an active patreon subscription, after the 20 gb expired i have 1gb space and am now sync locked despite still having an uninterrupted subscription. Could someone help please @malooniac Karel  i did send an email


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:09:40
edit_date: 2023-07-22 20:56:08
content:
  I am unable to work on commissions and I’m still completely sync locked.. Is there any chance someone can help me ASAP with this please…


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:11:02
content:
  I don't have the time personally, but if you want to try help yourself. This solutions will help in any case. Going from easiest with no data loss to loss of all caches


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:11:56
content:
  See sync-errors before starting. It could be some actual error like no harddisk space on the cache-disk


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:12:15
content:
  I have had an active patreon subscription for years, I needed a one time topup I got with NCR. When that topup expired of space. I got reverted to 1GB instead of my subscribed 25. That’s why I’m sync locked sorry.


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:14:48
content:
  Oh thats harsh. Official solution is to wait. Inofficial is to go to the inofficial Discord and let an inofficial Admin give you a temporary boost until the problem is resolved


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:16:32
content:
  There is also a solution that you, as a artist, might find useful... you know the local world you get spawned in at first? (not the homeworld, that world that opens first)


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:17:25
edit_date: 2023-07-22 20:56:50
content:
  I don’t think Swifty wants to handle these query’s anymore, that’s why I came here.. I’m just hoping it’s resolved as soon as possible.


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:18:07
content:
  I thought you can’t wear an avatar in there? Never tried but I seem to remember being unable to equip one. Could be wrong. But. As I need to test rigs and weighting I need that.


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:18:11
content:
  and you have the right to get a solution, i just offering things that i would have tried in a pickel. Its not a good sign that such important things are not solved


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:23:20
content:
  I'm pretty certain the team will check it out, but you can't seriously expect it to happen on a Saturday night, lmao.


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:24:57
edit_date: 2023-07-22 20:57:43
content:
  They wont do it, Karel has called them impostors so they refuse to provide support incase Karel goes after them for legal issues


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:26:04
content:
  in the past, they would do it after verifying you did infact, have that tier, but after Karel said that... They wont


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:26:33
content:
  I understand that, but I did also send the email yesterday and pinged them both also yesterday, just slightly over an hour of Karel speaking in here. But no, I don’t expect anyone to be doing ticket crap at 9PM in a Saturday.

  But at the same time I would like to be able to have my access back to something I’m paying for. :p


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:34:30
edit_date: 2023-07-25 03:56:42
content:
  So nice to meet you Leah. Thank you for supporting Neos. 🙏 Your Neos Cloud storage space was increased according to your Patron tier. Sorry for the wait, we’ll have a better system with nearly instant updates up soon.


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:35:13
content:
  Thank you, and sorry for bothering in the weekend, thanks for resolving it. Have a good rest of the weekend!


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 20:59:18
content:
  Agreed. I've pulled my years of support in its entirety because this 'soon' business is disruptive to my own projects and ability to suggest the platform anymore, as has been the common statement by many others


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 21:00:18
content:
  So, two weeks, plus or minus another 2, in the event the gremlins aren't too bad, should they crop up?


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 22:01:39
edit_date: 2023-07-22 23:31:56
content:
  Karel's exceptional work with updates, well-organized timelines, and unwavering support, especially during weekends, is truly commendable, setting him apart from the unofficial Discord.  🙌🏻🔥


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 22:03:17
edit_date: 2023-07-22 22:16:05
content:
  He's so unbelievably quick 👏 I can't wait for neos to get back on track 🙏 hoping to see the moon soon 🚀🚀🚀


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 22:35:19
edit_date: 2023-07-23 01:34:52
content:
  Then who has the source code? Not Karel.

  Karel's team will have to decompile everything and rebuild if they want to use the engine neos is built on, or have to start over entirely from scratch.


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 22:41:18
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:06:14
content:
  Man, Karel's been busting his ass as a CEO, pouring the best ten years of his life into making Neos a success. It's cost him dearly - his friends, family, and maybe even his wife. I think he deserves some praises. Man is a hero.


type: message
date: 2023-07-22 22:44:42
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:06:36
content:
  Well if Karel ever cracked open the discord he would see just how important the discord is to the community (aka, the people who are paying for neos)


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 00:41:03
content:
  I genuinely have NO idea if this is a bit. If it's a bit it's played flawlessly, if it's real it's confusing.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 01:26:07
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:07:28
content:
  Honestly yeah. I wouldn't call Karel an angel after he pushed team neos out after all their hard work


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 01:48:46
content:
  Oh and to top it off, it is likely NeosVR's source code has an licence file in it that prevents resuse, OR if it's hosted on an git service like GitHub and GitLab, by default repos without a license fall under AllRightsReserved, meaning only the owner of the repository and those explicitly allowed, can use the code.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 02:02:53
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:07:50
content:
  Lol what. Froox and the team threw a bitch fest "strike" and demanded that Karel step down as CEO and hand the entire company over.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 02:27:37
edit_date: 2023-07-23 02:53:30
content:
  And yet Karel is the one deleting messages and banning users who critisize his work under declaration of "FUD", which is such an abstract term it cant be held under court


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 02:58:28
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:09:02
content:
  Karel may have had his problems as CEO. I certainly didn't agree with all his decisions or style. But Froox and his team are the ones who pulled the plug.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 03:18:53
edit_date: 2023-07-23 03:34:59
content:
  It depends how you determine who is part of the company or not. Technically speaking no one currently that is part of Karel's companies are on strike. Additionally none of froox's team are on strike either


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 03:53:51
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:09:45
content:
  The entire discord was using the term "strike" informally. Now when it suits you, you're trying to apply some technical legal definition, which I'd obviously dumb af because no one's ever been unionized here


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 03:54:37
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:09:54
content:
  If you search the discord you'll see me repeatedly saying the term strike is inaccurate and doesn't make sense. But ok sure whatever.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:02:51
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:10:22
content:
  If you really care so much about misinformation, why not correct Kari's comment about Karel pushing out the entire team from the company? We both know that ain't true. Even by your own terms just now in response to the "strike" issue, they were never employees.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:14:14
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:11:51
content:
  Remember what kicked everything off? Making huge decisions without even asking what the rest of the people working on it thought, and signing with their names without permission?


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:17:38
content:
  Regardless, now that we are 2 years out and given where project is now, can you bring yourself to admit that maybe.... just maybe... Froox and team could've handled that shit better


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:18:20
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:11:58
content:
  Karel is a 50% owner. Wtf did they think was going to happen? That Karel would just step aside quietly after putting in 6 years of his own life into Neos?


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:21:13
content:
  what could have been done? They were all volunteers and contributing on their own accord. When decisions were being done without being asked, they weren't exactly required to continue providing support, and what support was being offered even beyond that is still not mandatory.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:22:14
content:
  I mean, if Karel wants to run things in a different operational standard, one without volunteers and all... then what does that leave them to do?


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:22:39
content:
  Oh I don't know... maybe discussing it like professionals instead of through discord announcements would be at the top of my list


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:23:10
content:
  you mean the one that is auto linked via Patreon and was only recently marked as unofficial? I mean... okay?


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:24:24
content:
  Not like they can use Twitter, since only Karel runs the NeosVR account there, and the website is the same thing. Plus, most people who are in Neos are on the Discord so...


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:26:07
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:13:05
content:
  Wtf are you guys talking about. I'm saying Froox should have met with Karel with the teams concerns and demands, instead of just ghosting for months except for a couple discord announcements.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:27:30
content:
  I don't know enough about what actually transpired between the two of them during the initial rough patch enough to even have an opinion on it


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:28:36
content:
  Yeah see that's what I don't know. Whether or not there were attempts at formal or peaceful communication over the concerns before it blew up into something bigger.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:29:18
content:
  ...I mean, judging by how the professional license holders were not getting any responses via email, not exactly help that case much


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:29:20
content:
  I don't know the private conversations between froox and Karel, but that isn't my recollection at all


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:30:53
content:
  Ya let me just research with my magic glass ball that will let me listen in on any of their past conversations. BRB


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:31:20
content:
  also the message link for non screenshot verification
  https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/439421931830378506/949441120616742943


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:32:16
content:
  This is just about the white paper. I'm talking about coming to the table to work things out instead of letting things dragging out like this for two years


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:34:02
content:
  Yall can disagree/dislike Karel all you want, but as 50% owner Froox was not in a position to just freeze out Karel


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:34:56
edit_date: 2023-07-23 04:35:13
content:
  Nor Karel to freeze out Froox? How does Froox feel about the Discord being made unofficial? Do you know?


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:35:05
content:
  Im not in discord anymore, but Karel def tried to negotiate with Froox and team after shit went down


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:36:57
content:
  license holders can't get ahold of Karel. People here sometimes still have issues getting ahold of him for support. I mean... even if you take the team's statements out... it's difficult just to get a response that doesn't magically come out of nowhere, and I'm not exactly keen on paying the Pro license fee to test those waters.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:43:12
edit_date: 2023-07-23 08:14:48
content:
  Frooxs March announcement said there is no space for Karel on project any longer and effectively tried to remove him, that he could go work on NCR coin by himself (which is worthless outside of Neos)


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:45:46
content:
  Ah yes
  "We don't want the entire focus of the program to be the currency, we'd rather it be a feature" is the exact same as "NCR literally cannot touch neos"


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:46:18
content:
  Just checked out of curiosity to see when the last uncensored F word was before the bot. It was Karel lol


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:49:04
content:
  with all the above happening... yes. It's best to ping both karel and Andrea, in addition to an email to... hello@neos.com...


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:49:41
content:
  Hey, wasnt NCR supposed to be provided by Karels own company, as a third party integration? As a response to Prozac claiming that it was to be removed entirely.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:50:33
content:
  No other channels were established. I think during the discontinuation of Discord's support, it was suggested to set up additional sub channels or something for Telegram but... well, here we are...


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:52:02
content:
  I mean... it's technically in that state to some degree due to the Steam build, which is mandatory to remain on the storefront.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:52:24
content:
  just looking through everything as It was a community thing and since I had promoted the patron in the past before this shit-show i'm annoyed with Karel changing things behind peoples backs like the patron terms changing without notifying the patrons and the calling out and hyping the crypto portion without looking at the overall community i'm so over this stalemate come on and owe up to it mate and allow the community to advance so done just want updates and fixes


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:52:41
content:
  i don't care what difference it makes since karel still is the one managing ncr in either case, so why is it even important


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:53:28
edit_date: 2023-07-23 04:53:48
content:
  if anything since the split actually makes sense for focused development in either project, why not propose that?


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:55:19
edit_date: 2023-07-23 04:56:55
content:
  As ppl said many times in here when third party integration was being proposed, it's a completely bad faith offer. A random coin unassociated with Neos and without official support from team is absolutely worthless.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:56:22
content:
  The reason NCR had any value was because of prospect as official (but not necessarily exclusive) currency in Neos with benefits like server space


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:57:03
content:
  Without any of that, it's about the same as anyone ginning up a random ERC 20 token and trying to tell ppl to use it in Neos


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:57:36
content:
  benefits as i see it would solely be the offchain wallet and mildly deeper integration which is trivial
  storage could easily be bought with almost anything else


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:57:59
content:
  unless someone has direct evidence to state otherwise, NCR was a means of rewarding people for supporting the project, as a token that would help add value to the market once the project was mature enough to support an in-game economy. 
  This would allow exchanges between users to be given more merit and people who helped support the project early an earlier start in market participation.
  The thing is, you could always also opt-out of it, as mentioned on the Patreon and Wiki. This is due to some people having issues with crypto by its nature. Considering the situation with the rugpull, that put a bad taste in many supporter's mouths, as it hurt their viewpoint on their 'support tokens'


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:58:56
content:
  this makes close to no difference in my eyes except now it gets called "third party"
  who managed ncr before, just karel, still..


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:59:15
content:
  personally NCR has caused more issues than what it's worth like integration with a crypto payment system is cool but as it currently stands it just no


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 04:59:34
content:
  can confirm. Any NCR related issues were directed to Karel (who handled them quite well back in 2021, I might add)


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:00:56
edit_date: 2023-07-23 05:24:46
content:
  I disageee but we aren't talking about end user. We are talking about it as an offer to Karel in order to get him to leave Neos. It was a worthless bad faith offer with respect to him specifically


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:02:04
content:
  Well, yeah, but Karels probably never going to back down on it, so the only options are to find a middle ground or be forgotten


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:02:07
content:
  it's not even anywhere near a great offer to the development team either, it is a compromise
  and for me, i certainly don't get to say neos is "ncr free!!!111" just cause it's not first party


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:03:48
content:
  heck, as I mentioned, it'd also lead to better market functions for the community. It'd force a secure API to be established.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:04:54
edit_date: 2023-07-23 05:05:18
content:
  Well the crypto bro's have already had there fun and well the platform is stuck in mid air I've been trying to bring new users on board but once they hear of Karel they distance themselves form the platform due to uncertainty and lack of updates


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:06:27
content:
  Unfortunately we need to wait a little while longer. I can't pull anyone on in good faith because of the situation. But it sounds like Karels got something planned at least


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:06:34
content:
  neos is basically unchanged in several years,and did not get worse or better
  until something will change, then personally i chose not to worry about anything


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:08:24
content:
  Well.... storage server bugs due to the new system's developement, some emergency hotfixes due to YT-DL getting sledgehammered by Alphabet, possible improvements to performance being held back and requiring community intervention to resolve....


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:08:35
content:
  it's really had and I'm heartbroken I love the core concept and community is absolutely second to non the best that you can get to build on but this is just hard to see and yes I know it's not going anywhere but very hard to get people onboard


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:09:13
content:
  Not even just performance improvements, there were lots of features on the horizon to be super excited for that we just never got.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:10:13
content:
  yeah, but the issue is that.... well, a large majority the people who contributed via the ETH wallet... well, they don't care. They never touched the product and don't know the community...


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:10:54
content:
  For me, I have a combined Patreon and NCR backed storage. Techincally speaking, I have enough NCR to last a mega long while


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:13:14
content:
  It's been almost 2 years. I've already begun plans with alternative systems, that ironically fit the 'supporter's' desires much better. It'll suck, but I want to keep my hand in a decent standing incase the river ends up being junk


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:14:37
content:
  i have all my eggs in one basket unfortunately
  certainly i am in need of a basket-sized egg transfer machine


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:16:54
content:
  A lot of my neos creations rely on behaviours mostly unique to neos, and the way I create things works best with logix. I've poked around with other platforms, there's no alternative to neos.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:17:32
edit_date: 2023-07-30 22:43:44
content:
  honestly that should be a separate thing the community should have been the central thing because that is what at the end of the day promotes the product and strengthens the overall system is the users but most people use crypto as a way to make money like stocks not as a payment system so yea I couldn't care less about the crypto since it's caused this issue in the first place community is what should be prioritised


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:18:03
content:
  i forget how easy neos makes some things
  the relatively fast iterating, wysiwyg, dynamic logic, it's insane


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:19:30
content:
  a lot of people end up feeling this way and it isn't wrong, but somehow it can end up being ignored a lot


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:22:41
content:
  and to add with more the community grows it can and will boost NCR due to it being used and the overall traction if your looking at it from an investment perspective


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:29:30
content:
  The issue is... that's both true but also not exactly.
  NCR was introduced during a different time. It remained in the project, and while other projects floundered, Neos didn't. However, come to today's handling of it, and then what you say is very true... and you can then spot the issue.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:30:04
content:
  a token meant as a reward for participating in the project was now attempting to be monetized... and the market system it was meant for... didn't even exist


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:30:35
content:
  well volatile yes but NCR wasn't properly embraced by the community and was hastily implement with no actual way of using it in platform other for player to player transactions or buying additional storage but if it was implemented with full systems to utilise it i'd say it could be more stable if it wasn't traded like stocks externally


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:32:57
content:
  also, bear in mind, that Neos started off as an Education system... and people who were on it that used it as a hangout, suddenly got surged by people who wanted to talk stocks and finances... during a time when people who were on the platform couldn't get a graphics card to enhance their experience...


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:33:30
content:
  (And from that... I think you can start to see where people started to have distrust with the new users, of those who did jump in during that moment back in Q4 '21)


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 05:35:08
content:
  with the sudden market of new people... being crypto centric, paid services would have been a stronger possibility, and people would be more encourged to participate in the market if automation for such could be done


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 19:01:39
content:
  The irony is that this is supposed to be where 'loyal' users are, and yet you will find the trolling factor here 10 fold higher than it is elsewhere.


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 20:11:12
edit_date: 2023-07-24 00:13:28
content:
  I reckon Christmas is just around the corner! Thanks a bunch, 🧡Karel🧡, for sharing the estimated time before the update. Much appreciated! 🚀💫


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 20:18:56
content:
  Hard to glean anything tho. One AI profile image, no username, simple name, random bat out of hell Karel praise


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 20:22:55
edit_date: 2023-07-23 23:55:28
content:
  No need to take me for a troll. Karel truly is, and always has been, a charming, handsome man with the brainpower of none other than Elon Musk himself. 🥹


type: message
date: 2023-07-23 20:38:00
edit_date: 2023-07-24 23:06:38
content:
  Honestly, I absolutely despised how someone attempted to portray Karel as some kind of pedophile mafioso a few days ago, and they even went as far as stalking Karen's and his girlfriend's social media accounts. 🤯 
  It's just ridiculous! And let me be clear, there's nothing wrong with having a good time with girls over 15 in Czechia. 😎


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 08:00:06
content:
  I mean your financial conclusions and decisions are ultimately up to you. There has been a pretty consistent downward trend for a while but whether it's "dead" or not is basically up to investors to decide. It's still tradeable and all that, pretty sure.

  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/966921670793252918/1132942537871609876/NCR_ALL_graph_coinmarketcap.png


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 13:59:12
edit_date: 2023-07-24 14:17:56
content:
  You know what? Karel is the absolute best. He's been passionately devoted to Neos ever since Froox first came up with the idea for the game. I really hope all his family plans work out in the end 🧡🚀💫


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 14:00:06
edit_date: 2023-07-24 14:01:01
content:
  This graph looks pretty bleak, however NCR was created in July of 2018 and for most of the time it was worth 0.06 USD or sligtly above. The whole graph including the previous 3 years looks much more optimistic with the Meta hype and dev strike shortly after as more of a blib than a starting point.


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 14:00:59
edit_date: 2023-07-24 14:01:06
content:
  That said looking forward for NCR to get into more adequate prices again. Way too cheap in my opinion.


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 14:05:33
edit_date: 2023-07-24 14:08:18
content:
  NCR is only as good as Neos itself so improving Neos is the way forward. Making Neos Credits more useful such as having them as a payment option in Neos Store will help as well.


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 14:11:45
content:
  There are multiple internal roadmaps ranging from a very optimistic one to a quite conservstive one. The important part is that we’re getting there.


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 14:41:06
content:
  This feels like a core-code problem, as even the avatar protection isn't 100%. And without access to the code neos is based on, how should a store integration work to ingame or evaluate ownership?


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 16:08:10
edit_date: 2023-07-24 16:08:23
content:
  Any solution that works would be good. But my personal expectations are a website with products, that are related to storage capacity and otherwise completly unrelated services


type: message
date: 2023-07-24 17:40:41
content:
  There's a link to "the whitepaper" after a mention of the store on the faq page of the wiki. Appears to not work though


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 02:28:07
edit_date: 2023-07-25 04:00:10
content:
  Neos Store is a future feature that would give creators the opportunity to sell their custom content - avatars, in-game assets…anything (withing the limits of proper licencing and other legalities of course). 
  There are some incredibly talented users within the community and they might like the idea of monetizing their creative work. 
  And of course it would play a large role in growing the creator economy, popularity of Neos and motivating community to produce a high-quality content that other people will enjoy. 
  So it also ties in with what Karel mentioned - making NCR more useful by utilizing it within Neos Store as a payment method.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 03:11:08
content:
  Because with my knowledge of the situation, Froox is 100% capable of "forking" the neos project and rebranding it with its own servers


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 03:52:04
edit_date: 2023-07-25 09:46:15
content:
  Having a virtual asset store doesn't necessarily have to mean implementing NFT-based transactions.
  It is simply an interface that would allow users to sell/purchase virtual assets to/from other creators, using NCR. If they wish to do so. It would be up to them. The specific implementation details and other legal responsibilities would of course need to be determined.  

  Just this is the overal idea - to offer a convenient and secure way to compensate creators for their contributions to the platform - and encourage more content creation, in a natural way.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 03:54:32
content:
  I'm guessing that securing assets is gonna be similar to the "SimpleAvatarProtection" system already ingame


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 04:14:58
content:
  Would love to hear confirmation that implementation of this is gonna be ingame, since source code access is a major concern.
  I don't want to go to the neos website, buy something there, and then paste that thing into the game via a link to the asset I purchased. 
  The system's gotta be integrated, otherwise what's the point


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 04:57:25
content:
  This has been planned since 6 years ago. Until now, there's still nothing in the development roadmap. There's no ID system for objects/license system yet. I don't know if Karel can add those things to Neos without the source code


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 05:19:00
content:
  And in order to ensure it, you would need anticheats and an closed API because you can literally extract the 7bson from the game, and save it as Json, modify, and then past right back in


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 05:22:51
content:
  plus, unless an massive update to the game engine itself is released, mod devs and plugin devs can *easily* bypass such systems


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 05:27:29
content:
  Karel has envisioned many things in imagination. Decentralized economy, decentralized payments through the NCR blockchain, decentralized job opportunities... There's the Neos Store, a cost-effective payment method using NCR (but NCR is a part of the Ethereum network, and gas fees remain high for small transactions of a few USD). Who will realize these dreams for Karel if there's no source code and no Froox? Or are they just empty promises without substance? Karel can only control the website, cloud servers, NCR wallets, and wield the power of an executive director. But without the source code, it's not possible. How can Karel confidently release the Neos Store?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 13:53:39
edit_date: 2023-07-25 13:53:55
content:
  I am of the opinion that if you would directly sell virtual content, like it is expected by people (sell working avatars, unique items, worlds (games/tools) directly in neos, this would be a big driver of innovation for neos.

   Giving simpler access to content (lets face it, importing an avatar is not simple for new people) that is so much better than compareable solutions (VrChat where you have to download 3 dev-tools, open a file, fulfill specific limitations for the account and upload that with tools meant for game development)


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 13:54:38
edit_date: 2023-07-25 17:26:25
content:
  On the other hand, just making a website that sells virtual content against NCR and competing with other big names while not giving this advantage seams useless to me.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 14:12:32
content:
  Neos is not a website and it’s not selling virtual content. I don’t like lies in this Telegram group. This is not NeosVR Discord. One more lie and you’ll get banned.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 14:52:37
edit_date: 2023-07-25 14:52:56
content:
  if neos had a shop, it would obviously allow to preview the items, like see new clothes on your avatar before buying


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 14:53:39
content:
  I would say that would be not even difficult to implement. Because of the way that worlds work in Neos, you need to save the item to your inventory to move it to another world


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 14:54:03
content:
  Or to say it differently... You can let the people play around with your item in the selling-world all you want, as long as you don't allow them to save it to the inventory


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 14:55:36
content:
  Other metaverses have world purchases and website purchase. Should do both in future. Allows user to purchase things while not being in metaverse


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 14:58:52
edit_date: 2023-07-25 17:27:19
content:
  I mean, selling it on the website as well is not a problem. There could be an API integrated that adds the item with set privileges (as integrated objects, similar how avatar protection works) to the inventory of the user logged in. I mean the website already features the inventory.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 15:05:33
content:
  Yes, so like expected a change of client and server application. Its nessesary anyway, as the integration of owner and the buyer (and the privileges the owner gives to the buyer) have to be integrated on server side


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 15:59:24
content:
  Well, i will pleasantly  surprised to see any core development. It would mean a major shift and finally a continuation.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:09:55
content:
  I keep hearing talks of a "Neos Store" but what would be in this store to purchase? Cloud storage maybe, but other than that what would its purpose be?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:12:25
edit_date: 2023-07-25 16:12:46
content:
  Could be as simple as selling avatars, although facilitated inside neos instead of getting like a unity package through gumroad. Not sure how good it would be asset wise, I would still like an avatar fbx/blend file for non Neos use I suppose


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:14:26
content:
  Sounds like an interesting concept, but what about the possibility of user distributing paid assets to others who haven't paid? I guess that is a possibility now but I'm just curious.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:15:11
edit_date: 2023-07-25 16:15:31
content:
  There was some mention in the past of license systems/components. dunno how exactly it would work but I assume not as easily sharable as the items we have now


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:16:26
content:
  But also, you could share assets illegally in neos right now, just as bad of an idea as if there was a store system.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:18:00
content:
  Nah on this timeline we won't see anything. If we see a new system in two weeks like Karel says I will be impressed


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:18:41
content:
  There are some tools and things that I like being free, but I understand if people would want to sell them to earn a little money for their work


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:19:59
content:
  I hope that we still can download stuff....
  Thats a point why I hate the SL market place, its a closed systems and now you kinda rely on ripping tools, if you want to use your paid assets elsewhere


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:20:05
content:
  I think Neos currently has good commission strength when it comes to setting up items or avatar systems for people. Items individually, maybe. It better be cool or useful though


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:21:21
content:
  That could possibly be a license thing if someone is allowed to export an item out of neos or if it required to stay in neos


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:26:43
content:
  Could be a built in thing (component like Gunnar said) that disallows the export of the asset. Would save time instead of trying to moderate it because I agree that would be very time consuming


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:39:55
content:
  What the system needs to do:
  Needs to control privileges (what you allowed to do with the asset). Saving it to your inventory, sharing it, spawning it a limited time per world,....

  What it doesn't need to do:
  Prevent exports out of the game or be resiliant to hardcore code attacks.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:40:09
content:
  DRM is a waste of time and development resources in a project with aspirations to an open api and open source client.

  It will be cracked, period. The best you can hope for is verification (e.g. proof of purchase) and records of providence.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:40:36
content:
  "But, but, how can i make sure people don't steal it?" 
  You can't, but lets be blunt, currently people on gumroad selling the unprotected files. The ones getting those files could share it. It is more a license than an actual protection or DRM


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:41:12
content:
  It is good enough if the DRM just acts in a sensible way ingame and prevents low level attempts to copy it


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 16:48:12
content:
  It would also be very good if import of a license would be supported (license import) to get access to the premade object this license is connected to (and stored on the cloud anyway).
  This has multiple advantages, even if it doesn't seam like it at first

  "we want to sell something in the store, that would make people circumvent giving us a share"

  Yes, but steam  does this too, for a reason. You want people to use that platform/shop and you can't prevent people from importing the avatars themselfs anyway, if they have bought it outside. By allowing to transfer/giving away licenses as a artist/programmer for neos, you also make sure that the object will be "the same" from the cloud storage situation. Meaning it has only be stored once instead of thousands of time. It also make people interact with your shop.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:05:31
content:
  would love to see a unity prefabs situation - you buy the base prefab, and your edits are recorded separately. 
  Then, if the avatar author updates the prefab, everyone gets those updates immediately.
  Or they can refuse the update for compatibility reasons.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:17:02
content:
  But again, How will we get this update if the source code's been lost?
  Are they going to release an update with a dnspy patch, a neos plugin, or something else?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:30:31
content:
  ...however, one issue no one seems to be noticing.... but if the content purchased is delivered to the user... should it honestly use their storage space? Technically speaking, it's the same asset as the creator, unless modified.

  You'd need almost a new folder type and new component: non-sharable (unless the creator DOES want that, bear in mind).


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:33:32
edit_date: 2023-07-25 19:14:59
content:
  Honestly, as much as people seem to be hyping up the idea of a marketplace, you aren't going to do it with a small group of people. You practically need a separate team just to handle market support related issues, from people having failed deliveries to whining about "Oh, this item isn't for me. Can I get a refund?" It sounds easy, but if you have even a single set of delays in handling it (and poorly doing it with bad channel management, hint hint), then people will just ignore the system


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:35:51
content:
  heck, you basically then need to come up with your own answer on the Ship of Thesis, considering that Neos's object handling BASICALLY would make that happen as a NORMAL occurrence. If I grab an item, it parents itself to me. If I'm wearing an avatar, should that grabbed item now share the same flags as the avatar I purchased? What about if I attach it another way? Snappables? Proxy linking?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:42:04
content:
  Yeah I see those points. It's definitely a massive undertaking of a future time when we have thousands of users and not hundreds


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:46:20
content:
  Not to mention.... many content have TOSes on their assets, explicitly not allowing involvement on blockchain stuff. So if the new system ties into it... congratulations... you basically just made an entire platform lose access to a majority of assets on Gumroad, especially avatars


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:48:08
content:
  Bottom line: the whole idea of a marketplace right now... is just to side step the actual conversation that should be had: what to do with a dying platform? What ACTUAL issues is Neos having? What are the ACTUAL priorities, and what work is needed to fulfill them?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:51:54
edit_date: 2023-07-25 18:13:27
content:
  Funny enough, that is not a problem we have. The asset management of neos, how cloning and storing of assets works, is very hard to really explain for me... to be truthful, because i only know half of it probably


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:52:27
content:
  BUT its a main reason why its very hard for neos to tell you how much storage an item takes from your own storage immediatly and even later on


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:53:11
content:
  There are references all over to assets stored from different people. And if those people delete their objects and assets and how that affects your storage again..


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:55:43
edit_date: 2023-07-25 17:56:27
content:
  What neos doesn't do is storing all assets that you store to your inventory JUST in your storage. It doesn't always clone all the assets of the object and all the references. It looks like its in your inventory but it could very likely be that the item you have uses 12 pictures from 12 different peoples storages.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:57:10
content:
  right... that's kind of what I mean: should the market, and any assets sold under it, be set to NOT use up storage? In a sense, it'd give market participation more merit, since you aren't copying an item to your inventory or having it from someone else. However, as much as I hate to even say this, it'd be an interesting marketing ploy to still count it against a user to increase monthly subscriptions instead of the one-time earnings from the sale commission.

  And yeah, that last one sounds terrible, but the majority of people here haven't even touched Neos, so might as well suggest a terrible idea now before someone else does.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:58:45
content:
  I think its the best way to do it actually. The store should have an own storage for multiple reasons, but objectifly also because its a license, not an asset you own. And the link to that online asset could be very useful if its able to change. For updates obviously.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 17:59:30
content:
  But, like with an avatar, that doesn't work if you need to change that asset (and you will most likely) as such we should just continue using neos already existing solution. As changed assets get again, stored in your storage.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:00:56
edit_date: 2023-07-25 18:01:09
content:
  So what does the license control than. The access to the stored object? No! The ability to use the stored object, similar how avatar protection works.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:07:50
content:
  However, that then defeats the point of the marketplace. Let's be very real: people claim avatar creation in Neos is hard. Compared to Unity, it's a "yes, but also no" situation. It's different. However, a regular user who can at least change colors in their totally legit copy of Photoshop would still want to change materials. Rebuilding an entire asset pack, meaning a double purchase (one for the in-world disapointment, and the other for the assets) is just not feasable.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:10:24
content:
  Not to mention, again, brings up ANOTHER issue with Neos: interactions and "how far is too far?"

  If I go out to a world and someone is using some new gadget that lets them Levioosah me around... If I'm wearing an 'untouchable' avatar from the marketplace... should it be allowed? What about a paint gun to change a random material to plaid? By that logic, if we can't touch the avatar's properties, then a tool shouldn't either? Wouldn't that just defeat the point behind many of Neos's tools and gadgets?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:11:57
content:
  Again: The marketplace discussion IS A DISTRACTION. We're in no position to even consider its establishment, and if it was attempted, in the current state, it'd be a disastrous launch that'd only further hinder Neos's stillborn reputation.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:14:01
edit_date: 2023-07-25 18:14:24
content:
  Oh yeah I mean like, I'm just bored of the typical conversation here because it's obvious this telegram never goes anywhere. Definitely a distraction, at least for myself haha


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:20:24
edit_date: 2023-07-25 18:21:36
content:
  It is, but none of the things you said is a problem.

  People claim character creation is hard, well no, its hard for new people or non tech affine people. You don't hear them because they don't stay in neos. Everyone that works a bit with it, figures it out eventually. But thats not the point, as the majority is long gone.

  The items from the market wouldn't be any different. Nearly identically to the avatar protection that already exists right now. The only difference is that removing this license protection would not be possible, and the ability to use it would be bound to the license key, not player-ident and as such can't be removed with a click in the editor (it would react like if you try to remove avatar protection as non-owner)


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:21:47
content:
  Well... then how about this?

  There is a new storage system being made. What can we, as people who do use Neos, often on a daily basis, ask as to what new features and benefits said system will offer? Will we have the option to purge our assets on request to comply with privacy regulations? Will there be additional securities in place? More options to address old issues?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:23:58
content:
  The thing is, any kid can jump into "gumroad," grab their favorite meme, open Unity, and be on their way in VRChat. Yes, it was already set up for them, but when said people, who cannot fully accomplish a full creation, but can modify textures or pick pretty shaders, a massive reason you don't have those people here are because the cost of entry for such is too high.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:26:00
content:
  That'd kind of the point: We can't ignore how other competing platforms are doing far better... because getting into them is far easier. Yes, Neos is more complicated because you have more options presented, but you can say the same for Mac, Windows, Linux, and the classic rivaly of iPhones and Android (and Blackberry).


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:26:49
content:
  Actually you would surprised how much people can NOT do that. But yes, it is what you find most often on gumroad. The Unity file that can't be opened by neos obviously. Last time i needed to download an extractor, because downloading that specific unity version, VRChat assemly stuff and all the additional toys would have been nessesary, just to extract that FBX. Don't get me wrong, that would not be a Problem if the artists would think about Neos, but noone does because its to nieche.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:29:22
content:
  As said, a license system for neos would add a lot to it. Its not only about a shop. I can remember multiple projects in Neos, for example the D&D world, that got given up as a result of missing license system


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:30:17
edit_date: 2023-07-25 18:30:33
content:
  the problem is getting information from people is... also hard, because people will CLAIM to have been on neos... yet never were, and only follow what the community hivemind have to say. If people here think that 'simply add market, get new users, lots money, mooon, hur hur,' let me gladly tell you how very wrong you are. No one wants to touch Neos. Not even if you paid them.

  You need to address the concerns and things that are making people stay away. Reconsider older tickets on the Github, like VRM support (something that VRChat MAGICALLY changed their minds on with HoloLive's sudden partnership), or ability to have a preset config file (JSON?) of components and objects.

  You need to build an actual foundational reason for people to come to Neos, and money isn't it. You can literally PAY users, and they won't stay. I'm saying that because it was done before, and it FAILED.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:31:47
content:
  Yea well, there is not a single, easy fix obviously. Its one of many featurs that could add to neos. Doesn't mean its the only thing missing.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:32:30
content:
  There are a lot of things missing. Neos has been left in the dust for 2 years. Things that made Neos special are now standard elsewhere.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:33:08
edit_date: 2023-07-25 18:33:47
content:
  the good part is that if you arent ready for dev stuff, VRChat does not throw it into your face. Everything is extremely oversimplified and makes sense (for the most part)


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:35:28
edit_date: 2023-07-26 01:48:57
content:
  I will counter that with... what is the most important thing about VrChat? I mean its nothing more than a mirror simulator. You want to see yourself and others differently than you are. A virtual place to meet, unbound by your real body or identity.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:36:17
content:
  It's main selling point is social interaction and user generated content. And it doesnt get harder than that if you dont want to


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:36:23
content:
  So... importing a character? Well, you need 3 different dev-tools, use them all and a file you get on some obscure websites. You want to change them? You need pro-programms that cost hundrets of $


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:37:57
edit_date: 2023-07-25 18:38:08
content:
  learning something new comes always with a challenge, but it doesnt mean I want this challenge in my face the first seconds of gameplay


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:39:18
content:
  So... where did you get forced into a technical challenge in neos before you import your own characters?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:40:01
content:
  You go online, get a quick tutorial about the interface (that is kind of complicated a bit) and are told about worlds where you can get avatars and meet people


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:42:06
content:
  also, if has the ONE thing I HATE, and have ACTIVELY YELLED AT A MILLIONARE IN THEIR FACE FOR: Movement is VERY important; it shouldn't be the LAST thing taught!


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:42:38
content:
  New user experience could be more streamlined, yea. But i think the only way to do this right would also make the user-interface simpified


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:43:15
content:
  You can't teach that interface with all its functions on the first day. So maybe it needs to be simpler.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:44:28
content:
  Movement, go to a place. If you don't do that immediatly, tells you a single way to archive that and previews it


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:45:03
content:
  After that it usually gets you to do a traversal for a target, like going to a different place where you have to duck/jump


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:45:04
content:
  As it stands, people have 'skipped' the tutorial, and end up missing A LOT of information. Because it sucks.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:45:42
content:
  After that it goes into interaction, how to do something that is elemental. Like going back in the tutorial or search for a user


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:46:50
content:
  And what comes after is an interaction with elements of the world, like  speaking  to someone, adjusting microphone, adjusting height, whatever adjustments


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:47:42
content:
  (Honestly, switching left/right hand might be a first step, as that's a preference, not really a learning thing. Think Halo 1's introduction of "calibrating" the suit)


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:49:34
content:
  Issue with that is... cost and some people just want to get going. Stories delay things, albeit in a way that seems meaningful, but for a tutorial for a platform, should be taken with great care


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 18:54:33
content:
  Don't get me wrong, but words are cheap. To see an actual change of client and server applications by programmers of karel would actually make me believe that he has the intention of continuing this project


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:08:50
content:
  We talked about this before, but can't you yourself think of nothing? I mean just on the top of your head?


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:09:56
content:
  Beside the fact that this is beta software, unfinished and many of the core applications already outdated (like unity implementation or even rendering and kind of totally missing physics engine)


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:10:25
content:
  This is just a horrible idea in general, as it means you can't ever fix issues that arise from core-code


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:11:12
content:
  And you obviously also get to the point where your changes outgrow what the core code was intended for, creating endless hours of workarounds that break with other featurs and plugins integrated


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:12:19
content:
  I think I either missed your last reply or either forgot about it - thanks for the previous and current explanation.
  You could patch core problems with extreme HarmonyLib usage, but that's honestly hellish
  I see what's wrong with it


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:17:59
content:
  I just mean making it fancy, sure we can have out tiny basic shop with just buy/sell and nothing else


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:20:01
content:
  I personally think its way more important to have THAT licensing system in the game as a first step. You can sell license keys on a website with fancy youtube videos and a cheap online shop if you have to, but without the core implementation of that licensing system, it all breaks down. Dead on arrival.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:22:04
content:
  If you want to make this easy and cheap ingame, and still working great, you could just make a public folder with all the items that can be sold. Everyone can see them there in their own inventory, but they are not usable/spawnable without that license, so its giving perfect access to it and the buyer. If you have an ingame shop later, its still there as a backup solution and for people to search around


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 19:23:45
content:
  What i mean is... building on that license system is easy and there are multiple solutions for shops. Websites, ingame worlds, public folders or a full blown shop-interface. But if that license system doesn't work/exist, its all for nothing.


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 20:16:49
edit_date: 2023-07-25 20:28:38
content:
  Update for the people following the chronicle of Sloppy’s storage issues: got refunded for 600 of the 1200 NCR I spent, I immediately re-spent the 600 to try again to get the intended result as NCR holds no use outside of storage rental for me, and the system worked as intended this time. It properly extended and I have my 50GB for 4 years. 🥳


type: message
date: 2023-07-25 20:51:36
content:
  I still have another year of storage with my NCR amount. Hopefully I don't have to deal with that headache by then.


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 07:59:38
content:
  Hello ☺️ apologies it must have get lost in the thread. 

  Groups are a Neos Pro feature that require purchasing a commercial licence.

  If you would like to discuss your needs please email us on hello@neos.com and we can take it from there ☺️ Thank you 🙏


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 08:20:10
content:
  Yup, here we go: Wiki has an entire page regarding groups:
  "Groups can currently only be created by Neos Patreons. It requires at minimum the Architect tier to create one group.
  To create a group the official points of contact are to send an email to hello@neos.com, or sending a message to its Telegram with your request."


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:27:27
content:
  Hello all. I just joined the patreon at the $6 tier. I was wondering how I go about getting the storage added to my account and the badge saying I'm a patron.


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:31:53
content:
  rewards apply on the 1st of each month, an if they have not applied by the 2nd, contact support at hello@neos.com


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:39:22
content:
  Ah, that you would have to actually email, it used to be handled by an user in the discord but... Since Karel decided to call them un-official and impostors... they have stopped giving tech support in fear of legal action by karel


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:40:06
content:
  Good Luck, I have only seen two people here say they have managed to get in contact with the Team through the email.


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:41:40
edit_date: 2023-07-27 00:38:50
content:
  Well, from the previous long tweet of Karel he definitely said he isnt gonna work for solirax as passionate as before. I think they will need to hire some more people that will do customer support or somethin


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:43:42
content:
  I dont doubt Karel's new team (who we dont know who they are to my knowledge) are working on things, I just have seen an noticable LACK of evidence showing they actually are


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:45:47
content:
  Yes, but if the "team" who were providing free (unpaid) support, had instated them, then they were called impostors and unofficial... that means by a technicality, all of their actions are unofficial


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:46:46
content:
  Nope, karel outright said that the "neos team" on the discord were impostors and are not the neos team


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:49:14
content:
  Oh, wait, guess who is still in the discord, and has the exact same role as the rest of the "impostor team"


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:51:10
edit_date: 2023-07-26 12:38:50
content:
  Technically he's not wrong. Froox is retired so he cant really call anyone a neos team? Its just a Discord Quirk they decided to use to show a bit of hierarcy in the community


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 10:58:49
edit_date: 2023-07-26 12:44:27
content:
  But yeah, no doubt Karel is going to see this chat, so I just ask that You (Karel) dont go after the moderation team, its basically the only thing thats keeping Neos from becoming anarcy


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 11:01:49
content:
  So, guessing the best way is still for me to go through the email in regards to applying it? Sorry, I'm not the best with this kinda stuff.


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 11:10:16
content:
  Hello Ruka I have found an user “Ruka” on our Patreon however it has a different tier and no corresponding Neos Account with that email. Details on your accounts to connect them would be appreciated either in DM or at hello@neos.com.


type: message
date: 2023-07-26 19:33:01
edit_date: 2023-07-26 19:36:28
content:
  For a second I thought there must've been a chain of people saying "Howdy UwU" because of the out of chat telegram preview & your name


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 08:32:27
edit_date: 2023-07-27 17:05:39
content:
  The pump and dump groups surfing on the Meta hype are solely responsible for the up and downs of that curve. Those groups exist and they did that to NCR as well to other tokens of metaverses during that time


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 17:06:18
content:
  Any specific reason why the wiki is being messed with, specifically https://wiki.neosvr.com/Office_Hours being completely scorched earth?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:29:08
content:
  Although there were a number of pages and content deleted, I wouldn't go as far as to say half the wiki. There is still an abundance of pages related to components, logix, user guides, controller bindings, Avatar setup and IK etc that are still available and not modified.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:31:02
content:
  I have not seen any changes, because i simply have not looked into the wiki, but that doesn't seam the point of critic of people. The deleted Informations are about external help, office hours, contributions and other critical themes (if what is listed here is true). So this is more about trust.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:35:01
content:
  i'll rephrase, the office hours with all the useful questions and answers for the past few years, audio and transcriptions are gone, along with some other pages


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:36:59
content:
  I hope he's ready to replace the lost services then. Otherwise, this is purposefully making an inferior product.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:40:20
content:
  I assume Karel made these changes strategically or in preparation for something and not in spite for spite's sake. Karel and @malooniac, since everyone is curious about the visible changes being made to the wiki, would you be able to comment on anything at this time in regards to the changes?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:40:41
content:
  I think that's because the Neos Team was renamed to Neos Foundation and thus the translations are now inaccurate


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:44:29
edit_date: 2023-07-27 18:45:46
content:
  Just a preparation for the main update, there will be more info including awards available. Thank you for your understanding and patience. 🙏


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:46:18
content:
  Thanks for the details, so more updates are expected to the Wiki soon so folks should be aware that more changes are coming?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:48:41
content:
  In terms of a new whitepaper, details on Neos Foundation, the awards and details on staking for sure.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:49:23
edit_date: 2023-07-27 18:52:33
content:
  So, any detail about the actual neos development? Like the expected shop/features/continued development in general?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:51:43
content:
  Oh yea, speaking of.  Perhaps considering that there is no Moderation anymore for ingame Neos. Could you perhaps add information to the future of ingame moderation / support related to the product neos itself?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:51:45
edit_date: 2023-07-27 18:52:01
content:
  I think the Moderation team is doing good job, didn’t have many complaints so far. Very glad for their work. We should definitely do some award for them as well. Some of them got CDCT>NCR but not all.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:53:12
edit_date: 2023-07-27 18:53:33
content:
  Are they still allowed to take action if it's required such as bans and whatnot, in the same way as they were before?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:53:15
content:
  Awards in terms of paying people very publicly for their great work. Paying people privately didn’t work too well.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:53:40
edit_date: 2023-07-27 18:54:04
content:
  The mods do good work but it would particular good to have the mods organized in some sort of official channel or capacity. If the Discord is unofficial now, what would the place be to meet Neos moderation in the future?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:56:10
edit_date: 2023-07-27 18:56:30
content:
  As mods are doing great job it seems to me now I think no changes are immediately necessary. Having more frequent communication would be great and I’m sure we’ll get there over time.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:58:39
content:
  Well, great. It will make such a huge impact on peoples feeling of progress, related to neos, if we would see ANY code change. Seeing Neos updated  in some capacity or feature added would really show that Neos has a future in your hands.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 18:59:24
edit_date: 2023-07-27 19:00:39
content:
  Just wanted to keep them some official status on the wiki as they are an important part of day to day operations and important part of Neos users having a great experience on the playform.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:18:26
content:
  Neos Wiki is not a place to post personal blog posts, reverting changes done by me is considered vandalizing, also does your nickname say fuck crypto? Thats wild


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:20:14
content:
  Office Hours are a common company practice, especially with smaller groups, that allow public communication with said group, often gaining insight about possible areas of improvement and to help build trust with the community


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:20:16
edit_date: 2023-07-28 00:49:32
content:
  You don’t have an office with Neos plese post your stuff on your personal website or elsewhere not on the official Neos Wiki


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:20:54
content:
  ...there's... no need for a physical location... this is 2023... it's a term, not a literal breakdown of nouns...


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:21:09
content:
  That's somewhat against the goals of the wiki itself Karel. It is disappointing but your call. I'll remove all my content if you want. 90% of the wiki will be empty though.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:23:50
content:
  You are allowed to contribute, just not personal blog posts and tons of audio files making backups more difficult


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:28:08
edit_date: 2023-07-28 00:56:49
content:
  The user knew very well that he is vandalazing s change done by the CEO would do damage elsewhere as well


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:31:36
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:08:59
content:
  you wiped valuable information from a wiki with no reason, people were rightfully pissed and used THEIR rights to undo it


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:34:14
content:
  no, this is shooting someone in the arm for merely sneezing at you, a warning is "please don't do it again, doing so will get you a suspension"


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:36:40
content:
  Welp, like a blockchain, all actions are publicly visible on a wiki. So we're all going to keep watching... and if something changes... we'll know...

  https://wiki.neosvr.com/Special:BlockList


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:37:27
content:
  Probably good to set up some wiki rules. Is undoing or changing anything the CEO does on the wiki always going to be considered a bannable offense?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:39:22
content:
  I always had this idea that wikis were basically community run and managed. This monarch style is a little new to me


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:41:12
content:
  Neos Wiki is official Neos wiki run and hosted by Solirax, there are many such wikis. It’s not wikipedia.org just uses the same engine


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:42:02
content:
  You are side stepping the primary issue... but if you want the wiki to no longer be updated by the community, as represented by your actions... then just say so.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:45:37
content:
  Currently anyone logged in can edit though right? It might be good to set up some DOs and DO NOT DOs so people don't step on toes. Not knowing what you can and can't do as a collaborator seems very important.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:52:18
content:
  Banning dissent and undoing community changes if they go against you looks very bad for any kind of leader.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:53:19
edit_date: 2023-07-27 21:53:46
content:
  Neos is a project with crypto called Neos Credits, manipulation trough FUD is not allowed and not good for NCR holders


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:53:50
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:18:19
content:
  Is commenting negatively about the CEO because members of the community disagree with his actions considered FUD?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:54:21
edit_date: 2023-07-27 21:54:38
content:
  Was Flames' fud message deleted? Everything prior hasn't been crypto orientated, just wiki concerns.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 21:58:43
content:
  But sometimes something can be "overly negative" if that part of the product is widely renown for being a poor part of it?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:01:06
content:
  I feel that it was still constructive, any criticism is going to be negative no matter how constructive it is.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:02:01
edit_date: 2023-07-27 22:02:11
content:
  Imagine for a minute holding some NCR and caring about its price. You certainly wouldn’t want to be dramatic and decrease its price. If there is a problem please get in touch with us. No public drama necessary.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:04:04
content:
  Right. I do hold ncr and realistically if i want the price to rise i would want to give criticism on a product because yes, at the time of critique, it would decrease but when the product is developed further and people see more promise in the product wouldnt the price also increase with the quality of the product being further wildly renown?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:04:08
content:
  I'm still holding my tokens no matter what happens, even if something petty is said by someone in the community. But seeing staff banning someone because they edited a page on a public and important community resource is a little out of touch.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:05:19
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:21:36
content:
  It would be good to have messages responsible for a ban visible to at least some sort of moderation team (or to the community), rather than it being ambiguous what exactly got a user banned.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:08:35
content:
  And what about the multiple times you did something bad? Which also a lot of Whales back then criticized? To a point they startet to activly warn others? And this isnt FUD.... there were several Twitter Posts aswell from them back then.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:08:37
content:
  I've no familiarity with your co-founder or the Neos community before mid-2022, but everything causing drama that I've seen seems to be a recent development


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:09:24
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:30:45
content:
  I personally would like to know which of Flame's messages were responsible for his removal. I did not notice anything egregious during this conversation but it's possible I may have not seen it? It would be good to know exactly what sorts of messages constitute removal.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:10:29
edit_date: 2023-07-27 22:11:32
content:
  Yes whales that wanted me to buy back their NCR for mint prices and I explained that they need to sell on public markets because it wouldnt be fair to other holders and that we are going to support prices for as long a we can but just in open marketplaces


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:16:10
edit_date: 2023-07-31 21:42:22
content:
  Flame was spreading fud long term, today there were panicky messeges about new users seeing some bad things. What users were seeing were his panicky messages. Prime examlple of creating drama, fear and doubt.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:18:43
content:
  I have someone who accidently bought at 10$ because the payment took multiple days for some reason...


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:19:49
content:
  The price was calculated at the time of doing the mint, processing is what took multiple days that didn’t affect the price


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:20:58
content:
  It was around 5$ as far as I remember, but the Processing of sending eth and receiving it took so damn long for some reason.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:20:59
content:
  If he was panicking then I'd call him a victim of FUD, not someone who spreads it - maybe addressing concerns instead of silencing them might be a better tact


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:22:15
content:
  I'm all about the engine, I actually make games and content for users within the engine. I was there in the very early days of it. I wouldn't want my whole history to be erased over a mishap with the community wiki.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:29:11
edit_date: 2023-07-27 22:29:26
content:
  Yes ETH is mined and can be used to mint NCR. 👍 I remember some confusion of people who thought Neos client is doing actual mining.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:31:13
content:
  I mean crypto can def be a little shady. Something about answering to no-one. Always has its perks and its hmmmm


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:33:11
edit_date: 2023-07-27 22:33:37
content:
  Honestly it's crypto traders online who always seem shady? I've always been a bit turned off when I wander into crypto sides of Twitter. Between constant scams and obv weird purchases of poor quality art I think I just don't like the way it absorbs everything they do or talk about. Unhealthy imo


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:34:09
content:
  Crypto's got a bad rep, which is funny considering it's supposed to just be a cool technology
  human moment


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:34:58
content:
  I... think 2 from Wiki/Neos and around 4 people out of this chat?
  There is no transparency in here sadly.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:35:11
edit_date: 2023-07-27 22:35:24
content:
  Karel made wiki edits
  A user undid them and got banned from neos
  Another user got banned from this chat for FUD
  No new whitepaper


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:43:52
content:
  This is kind of scary? If I'm understanding right, expressing doubts or concerns or even just a certain opinion about a part of the project can get you banned from talking about the project on any official communication platform if the CEO deems it could hurt his financial gains. Is that correct? And moreso this is the case even as a normal community member expressing their opinion in a public area, not even as a staff member on contract or anything.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:47:10
content:
  But the love of money pretty universally leads to horrible things if left unchecked? Like that's been the case forever.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:47:23
content:
  The Neos community that still holds the token (Hi!) isn't going to dump it all because they heard a single thing from the community still. People aren't that sensitive. 
  What people are sensitive about though is getting completely silenced from official sources by having a differing opinion.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:50:54
content:
  Karel, I've got a user that asked me to send a message they've sent emails to hello@neos.com about telegram moderation abuse and they haven't heard anything back... Is there anywhere better they should go to contact you?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:51:45
content:
  I do - I'd love to be able to make a good amount of money off of NCR and have it be successful, but currently all I see is dedicated Neos members and NCR holders being banned for petty reasons from the only "official" public communication with the company


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:51:58
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:59:51
content:
  Yeah, that is called "Feedback" and it's very useful in a lot of cases. Every software you see has a button to send it. In the case of Neos, it's basically non-existent and the only place to share it is here. 

  Would you call my Feedback weaponized if I'm trying to rationalize the seriousness of the situation and how actions you take against people "causing a stirr" in the community actively harms it?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:54:09
content:
  Neos is a platform unlike any other. It has had lots of positive effects on many. The Neos Foundation would hopefully like to keep these positive effects going, so hopefully one of the things that the Foundation will do is take care of the community to the best of their ability. As long as the Foundation keeps powering through the outside forces, I'm sure some people will appreciate it.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 22:58:42
content:
  Weaponized is in the eye of the beholder, perhaps. I feel as though I need to make my points and questions very clear and direct when it comes to any form of argument, especially when I believe decisions made might have grander consequences, and that directness can come across as very harsh.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:00:37
content:
  god i want to see this project grow, there's nothing like it (programmatically speaking.)
  But with no updates & lack of source code implying there will never be updates, we're just stuck waiting here. 
  The coin wont grow if the game doesn't start growing soon, all i want is hard confirmation that the source code problem has been resolved somehow.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:11:29
content:
  I create stuff frequently within the engine, and having the infostructure and cloud storage scaled down and slightly sideways makes me weary over the amount of time I put into my works. 
  I would love to see the game grow and an in-game marketplace to be compensated for the stuff I make. 
  But it becomes hard to work on the things I love when I have to deal with my stuff not syncing or authentication not going through. Sometimes the network will be entirely down. (I wasn't able to even open worlds for a full day because the world browser was mangled) This is current Neos, and it's a little hard to live happily in the game with everything going down. 

  This isn't Fud, this is just the current situation from my angle, a person who dedicated a loyal six years of my own life to this platform. It's quite unhealthy right now, and having to be constantly silenced and resources revoked from those in the community. Ignored when there's a boatload of issues within the game and within the community. It breaks my heart to see it all like this. 

  This place lacks quite a lot of maturity from all sides of the conversation.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:18:49
edit_date: 2023-07-28 02:04:04
content:
  Karel I have gone over everything from last night to now, you are what is causing FUD, your actions are beyond reasonable and show an distinct lack of knowledge of what you are doing

  From my understanding, Froox and his team were the technical side and you were the buisness and marketing, you are attempting to work on things with zero understanding of how it is supposed to tie in and have demonstrated an extreme immaturity. 

  I am cancelling my Patreon Subscription until you can show an shred of maturity


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:19:26
content:
  I really, really want to support neos, but banning someone for undoing a change that couldve easily been accidental on your part (since no description/reason for change was presented), is over the line


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:22:17
content:
  the Community is the litteral HEART AND SOUL of the project, without it, you have literally nothing but crypto-bro yes-men to dig the hole to the core of the planet and burn it into nothing

  you need to consider the opinions of everyone involved, even if they may not like or agree with your stances on crypto (I personally am opposed only for environmental concerns due to power usage),


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:25:20
content:
  Neos, is bigger than you seem to understand Karel, Neos is built on the backs of everyone who has ever joined and had fun, learned the tools, and created something in the game/engine that impacted another user, positively or negatively.

  You appear to be ignoring that portion of the community and are instead only focusing on the Crypto-Bro's


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:26:05
content:
  User got banned from the wiki (and therefore Neos) because they undid a change Karel made on the wiki that couldve easily been an accident by Karel, and karel wont admit they were wrong and should've left a warning instead


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:27:14
content:
  Who, in their  right mind, would ban a neos account for a wiki change? How is that related? What happend?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:27:54
content:
  Yea... but if i ban someone from my world in neos, he is not banned from logging in into  neos. How is that related?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:28:08
content:
  But rather than warn, or even place more targeted restrictions Karel suspended the account indefinitely


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:28:27
content:
  Yes,  but SSO is obviously related to privileges, the privileges you give an SSO login can be changed


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:29:58
content:
  You can just remove the wiki privileges or limit them to read only. How is that related  to a ban from Neos?


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:30:50
content:
  I don't care about the money, I just want a platform to exist on. You've seen how much money Patreon can give to support the whole thing? Right now it seems like everyone is obsessing over the concept of  you want to turn it into the next Gumroad instead of trying to resolve what ties have been broken in the past. And uh, it's gonna be very difficult to deliver those promises if the main one developing the game is gone. All I can see is just a website with pictures and promises. Neos was different from all the Metaverse Crypto projects out there, because we actually had a thing to show. But instead it turned into one of the generic ones without anything to really show for itself other than ideas.


type: message
date: 2023-07-27 23:32:34
edit_date: 2023-07-28 02:15:26
content:
  Karel Listen, 

  I want to help you make Neos succeed, I want to see it thrive, but that requires work on your part to be willing to work with others who may not share the same opinions with you, I am not asking for an apology here, I am merely asking for you to sit down, and contemplate this, to focus on what the PEOPLE want, 

  Every single time in history where a leader places themselves over others, their empire/rule has always fallen, this is one of the few things American schooling has successfully taught me, 

  You need to take a step back and really think about your actions, you saw the uproar people had here over LakesideMiners being banned over an simple change that could've EASILY been an accidental change, 

  Again, I don't want an apology, I want you to improve yourself so that you may be better suited to be CEO, 

  Fire me an message here on Telegram, I want to help, and I want to discuss *how* I can help.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:07:24
edit_date: 2023-07-28 00:07:40
content:
  "Acronym of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, a marketing strategy involving the spread of worrisome information about a competing product."


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:11:06
edit_date: 2023-07-28 00:12:01
content:
  The wiki being "vandalized" by removing valuable information and when a concerned user tried to recover it they got banned. That doesn't look good.
  That is drama. That should not happen


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:29:19
edit_date: 2023-07-28 08:08:44
content:
  I like dousing my bolognese with parmesan
  Like how a milo should be 10% milk 90% milo, as god intended


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:35:53
content:
  Calling the criticism weaponised is flippantly downplaying the communities concerns so you don't have to listen to us *at best*.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:44:13
content:
  Because the removal of users in this chat is supposedly done in order to directly or indirectly prevent potential loss of product value.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:47:46
content:
  Roughly the equivalent of a restaraunt chain removing you from their public group chat because you left a bad review.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:49:27
content:
  Ahh, yes, that shows the issue at hand really well. Remove bad reviews instead of using the reviews to better the restaurant


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 00:56:09
content:
  If it were harassment of the CEO directly, I could see it being bannable ot at least warning/punishable. I don't want to see the CEO of a restaurant chain getting personally dragged through the mud on a restaraunt comment section just for being himself. I think that's inappropriate. And I think that when it comes to the Karel harassment as well when it isn't actually relevant. But if the restaraunt CEO puts out an official notice stating that a core popular ingredient will no longer be served, publicly bans the use of condiments, or announces his plans to destroy kitchens to make way for flashier "we're open" signs, I think criticism of those actions are more than warranted, EVEN IF the CEO in question thinks such comments might hurt the value of his products, and even if personally his feelings are hurt by the commentary. Community/public input is important, ESPECIALLY when it comes to socially or publically oriented services and products like Neos.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:01:22
content:
  Good products tend to hold up to "FUD" anyway
  FUD in this case seemingly being vaguely defined as whatever Karel dislikes
  If he just set out some clear guidelines as to what is and isn't FUD, most people would follow them
  Rather than assume it's self-evident


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:04:12
content:
  Well, let's crack the definition of FUD then. It is about statements that create fear, uncertainty and doubt. I wonder if that also applies to statements that comment on actions that cause fear, uncertainty and doubt.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:06:14
content:
  Okay, so like half a decade of community wiki work got deleted with no notice. Why should we contribute to anything under this new management if that is how they decide to value community contributions?


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:11:06
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:11:50
content:
  A guideline for defining what FUD is would certainly rid of doubt and fear of participating in the chat.
  And as a neat side effect also add value


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:20:27
content:
  I'd respect his concerns more if there were some evidence of the impact of people's frustrations, concerns and disagreements about Neos itself on the value of NCR


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:23:26
content:
  There has been a slow decline in NCR's price from 40c to 10c it looks like, but that lines up with the development freeze rather than any event of FUD


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:26:19
content:
  It's more of an interlocking situation right now that prevents new releases, it doesn't affect any development efforts however


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:27:19
content:
  You're right, there's nothing stopping Froox from working on his code. Releasing new versions of Neos is the issue


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:28:31
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:28:44
content:
  There is also nothing stopping Froox from *rebranding* his code, as if no contract was signed stating ownership of code, nor an license file stating ownership of code to solirax...


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:28:59
content:
  From an purely technical point of view, the code belongs to Froox, as do the licenses for libraries used in said code


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:32:19
edit_date: 2023-07-28 01:32:33
content:
  That's what we'd hope a good portion of the last year and a half was about: Figuring out if that's legally the case


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:32:44
content:
  meaning, until we get confirmation of wether or not Froox put a proper license file in his repository,


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:33:21
content:
  Well, I mean, it is a bit more complicated than just having a contract and it depends on the country


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:34:22
content:
  if its locally hosted on a personal git server, then it belongs to the owner of the git server, if it is hosted on github or gitlab, AND lacks an license file, then it belongs to the user


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:39:48
edit_date: 2023-07-28 02:42:37
content:
  Because you litterally have no proof you understand what you are talking about, which is something that is severely lacking in the "yes-men" of this telegram


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:43:31
edit_date: 2023-07-28 02:43:40
content:
  Let me tell you, whenever I write code on company time on company PCs, if I claim that code as my own, it'd effectively be theft from the company. Stealing time and resources


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:45:27
content:
  That I acknowledge,

  The problem is, since Froox was never under contract, and never received compensation for his work... It basically depends entirely on where the code is hosted as Neos/Solirax, to my knowledge, does not have an office building where developers physically went to work, nor set time frames for "working hours"


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:46:00
content:
  Hey, Thom is correct. IP Rights are assigned by paperwork(usually your employment agreement) but other paperwork is proper.

  Without paperwork you own it.

  Thom's employer probably required paperwork either as a part of the contract or separately.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:49:23
content:
  I don't mean what you know where it was developed, more about proof, that where code is hosted would have any effect on ownership and not just possession


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:51:06
content:
  and with the lack of an prior-existing contract that specifically states it belongs to neos/solirax and not froox,


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:51:09
content:
  To the contrary, for example, I can own a car that is not in my possession. Why do you think there are repossessions?


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:52:22
content:
  It's pretty much based on ownership. Like if a thief steals from your house, do they own that stuff then? Actually no, they only possess it, but cannot own or legally sell it


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:56:40
content:
  Outright calling someone a moron isn't a particularly adult thing to do, Kids do that when they don't know another way to make an argument.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:57:02
content:
  I think all of this is meaningless. If the ownership of the code would lie clearly by Karel, he would have already sued. I think whatever is going on its not clear in any case or the ownership lies at Froox. Don't you see that this discussion is not leading anywhere anyway?


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 01:58:35
content:
  man idk. theres better ways to discuss this then insults. that dont get you any closer to a conclusion


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 02:00:06
content:
  i just think its a pointless topic and we shouldnt just be chasing our tails about it. it aint gonna help much of anything


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 02:01:23
content:
  i dunno. i just want people to talk straight up but not going at eachothers throats. you dont get anywhere with venom


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 02:01:53
edit_date: 2023-07-28 02:01:58
content:
  I wanted an intelligent conversation with people, and it very clear the only way to properly get people to react and talk facts, is to force their hand


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 02:04:46
edit_date: 2023-07-28 02:55:31
content:
  I am litterally sitting here just looking at the karel situation, and just...

  Karel needs to step down from CEO, and focus on their corner of the project rather than all corners, 
  their corner being Marketing, and NCR


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 02:08:36
content:
  When Froox and the team was all functional, from waht I gather everything basically worked well, Karel was able to push NCR and the Buisness side of things moderately well, Froox and his dev team were able to work on the game/engine and fix several issues many people had, as well as improve the project as a whole, 
  the community and administrative teams were able to moderate it

  And karel threw all of that away over something that a good portion of the crypto currency didnt really want, (I am not including the boom of people who were in it just as an get-rich-quick scheme, as are most "crypto-bros")

  Threw all that existing infrastructure because they wanted to push NCR while the key pillars of the existing structure did not want to push it as hard.


  this is all from what I have gathered over my time being a member of the Neos community


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 02:09:18
content:
  and since the Team left/went on strike, Karel has had to shoulder damn near all of that weight, and it is clear they are starting to crack under it


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 02:55:52
edit_date: 2023-07-28 02:56:33
content:
  ZD Fraiser, you are litterally proving my point by reacting to my messages with Clown and Shit emoji=


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:01:45
content:
  I found it rather inconvenient to call behavior out, though yes, sometimes it feels like it makes one feel better when finally speaking up. And that's it, it just seems to be a good idea at first and then it wasn't even worth my time to argue


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:03:20
content:
  I was just frustrated with people claiming shit and not knowing the facts behind it, and then refusing to admit it or bother taking a quick google


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:16:16
content:
  I mean, if Thomas is going to declare victory without even engaging with criticism, no matter how coarse, I have no choice but to continue


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:17:12
content:
  I mean, seriously. This leads to nowhere. Just don't. All  this discussion about  something we all know little about.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:21:48
content:
  A good first step would be to respond to Merith’s points and make good faith gestures towards being transparent to the community


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:23:52
content:
  Transparency sure is lacking. Better communication would also help. Or at least a little communication from that Team at all


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:25:12
content:
  As i see it, i never assume people are stupid.

  Not updating neos on purpose and hoping the product gets worth more.. stupid.
  Having a big programming team interested in the development of neos and not showing it to the community... very stupid.
  Not suing if you know you clearly own the code someone stole...  insanely stupid.

  I really, seriously don't think Karel is stupid, i think he is a business man that knows what he is doing. I think things have a reason.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:25:58
edit_date: 2023-07-28 05:26:15
content:
  I am legitimately willing to step up to the plate and help, so long as Karel is willing to compromise in the end


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:29:11
content:
  1) Let the moderation team do their job
  This extends to the wiki,
  2) Let the team who has been acting as support, continue acting as support. This way Karel does not need to worry about training new people who don't understand the systems in place, saves time and stress.
  3) listen to the community and tone down the crypto pushing by 50%
  4) don't try to control everything, you spread yourself too thin and overwork yourself. 
  5) let someone act as the intermediary between you and others for a bit. Like an community manager


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:31:09
content:
  Like even if you attend just to show up and look around. Being there and actually trying to understand the communities desires versus your own have been what saved many games and companies from destruction


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:33:47
content:
  With the development of the project and the community, it allows for better integrating the NCR into the project, as people are less likely to jump ship because of actual legitimate FUD and not what has been called FUD in the past here


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:34:00
edit_date: 2023-07-28 03:34:29
content:
  However as much as I've seen, the dev team definitely doesn't want to work with Karel under no circumstances any more.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:35:34
content:
  Honestly with that team going off to do their own thing is fine, it's mainly you gotta be willing to compromise with others to get what you want


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:37:40
edit_date: 2023-07-31 22:22:27
content:
  On this case, Karel is getting the monkeys paw of getting the old team removed and shit. But at the same time the community hating him


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:38:30
content:
  I personally don't like that. As I can write something that to me sounds and reads neutral, but to nueral-typicals, is extremely aggressive


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:38:35
content:
  Deleting things from the official wiki also causes uncertainty and doubt of whether to still work on that wiki


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:48:34
edit_date: 2023-07-28 05:43:58
content:
  I want what's best for neos, and what is best from what I can tell, is Karel not having ABSOLUTE POWER


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:55:26
content:
  Step 2) Make the budgets and where the money actually is going public. In a monthly report.

  Show how much money is going into server costs, as well as "employee/CEO" pockets, and how much is going into an fund for the company to draw from


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:56:58
content:
  Have the primary server be the default, but allow members to make their own "Universes"/"Galaxies"
  (As part of this. Rename "Universe's" to "Galaxies" and make "Universes" refer to actual servers)


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:57:18
content:
  However, what I heard the devs saying, they don't want fragmentation, so I guess federation is also out of question


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:58:49
content:
  Federation is an option to compromise. As each server would be 100% its own thing. So NeosVR servers would be default. And make it so changing servers requires an launch argument, 

  All servers must use the latest release of the software or not be able to have users join


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 03:59:52
content:
  The thing with, is the default, is not really working. Either you are feature complete and others are behind, that's what I see with Second Life and the OpenGrid


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:02:21
content:
  Well, it's complicated. The value of NCR or just any game currency like for example the Lindendollar is not that easy


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:04:25
content:
  L$ is at a fixed rate, because it is made so, by regulating the market volume. There is only that many L$ as there is demand to cause that price


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:06:25
content:
  NCR has a cap, there won't ever be more as what the initial minting produces. That makes it volatile and the price can change rapidly with demand


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:10:08
content:
  Let's compare the demand for L$ and NCR.
  Demand for L$ is there because it is actually used in Second Life. People pay their land in L$, so they need to buy it. Marketplace also converts all purchases so they happen in L$. That includes purchases done in fiat, where L$ are bought on the exchange in real time to fulfill the purchase. So there is also implicit demand created.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:12:08
content:
  Yeah, as currently the only way to get NCR Is to be a Patreon member, which I have yet to get my 7.5 NCR to begin with


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:35:06
content:
  Are you trying to use https://wiki.neos.com/ ? The wiki on https://wiki.neosvr.com/ appears to be fine. Note neos.com vs neosvr.com


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:38:16
edit_date: 2023-07-28 05:16:21
content:
  Hello all, I think it might be helpful to try end remove emotions from this discussion for a bit.
  First of all, I understand that a lot of you might be feeling frustrated or concerned about the recent Wiki updates, and that's completely valid as there hasn’t been a lot of context for these changes and the trust of the community is fragile already as it is. 
  But it's important not to jump into conclusions or overreact. 
  We made these changes with the intention of providing a better reflection of the current situation within the internal structure. 
  There has been a lot of discussion on here lately about actual team members and roles, and this was an attempt to address it amongst other things. 
  The core information about Neos game and valuable content of contributors, of course, remains intact -  which is the most important thing. 🙂When certain people talk about removing their contributed content out of Wiki as a sort of a punishment for these changes, that is a little childish. Please correct me if I am wrong here or if there is something I overlooked or missunderstood.

  We are all working towards the same goal - a further develoment of Neos and moving forward despite of this mess. Open and constructive discussion is however much more difficult than anyone would like. Clearly still we haven't reached the point of being able to sit together at one table. So for now, we are going to bring the new web/desktop UI, account management changes amongst other things very soon. The whitepaper update too. 😊
  And I understand that things may be moving at a slower pace than desired but it’s better to test things hundred times on this instance.

  Regarding communication on this platform (Telegram), maintaining somehow positive or at least civil outlook is essential for the NCR -as this is Neos Credits group. Possibly on instances things could be handled/communicated differently but since it is incredibly time and energy consuming to react to each one of these comments, especially the repetitive negativity, sometimes quick moderation actions are performed in order to stop the discussion spinning into even darker places. 
  I absolutely understand that it must be incredibly difficult for anyone to navigate in this mess and I am sorry. I would love hear from anyone who has some constructive feedback and who can uderstand that the only way out if it is to stop taking sides. We genuinely enjoy working and interacting with anyone who has a positive, professional and proactive approach.🙂 And NCR will go up as a result of demonstrating ongoing development - people actually working on this project. People enjoying Neos. Healthy community. Not by defenestrating CEO or spreading hysteria.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:42:51
content:
  The funny thing about constructive feedback is if it actually got listened to after the....10th-20th time? I lost count. There are better ways to reflect internal changes without deleting history of how you got to this point imho. So while I appreciate the de-escalation your attempting, your not really saving face in this situation, as all the prior situations.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:43:53
content:
  Current wiki is actually on wiki.neosvr.com going to the base domain redirects to neos.com going to wiki.neos.com is supposed to redirect to the wiki.neosvr.com one. That was an inbetween fix of some sort as the website moved to neos.com from neosvr.com


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:44:34
content:
  It is not possible to see why valuable content has been removed or why anything might outweigh the costs that deleting history brings. Especially as that history was full of constructive feedback by users of Neos. I hope you have a backup, because that information lost was invaluable


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:48:39
edit_date: 2023-07-28 04:49:25
content:
  Generally, when constructive feedback(the best kind) leads to a ban, you'll start to get the other varieties of feedback, including those you don't want.

  This also occurs when any feedback is referred to by a strange abbreviation and then ignored instead of being engaged with in a constructive manner.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:50:20
edit_date: 2023-07-28 16:20:27
content:
  This is not about anyone saving face😊️️. And receiving feedback doesn't automatically imply that it will get implemented. It's just to say that one is open to listening the other person and validating what they have to say. And I do not know what particula instances we are talking about right now. So we would have to be more specific.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:52:29
content:
  And I am talking here for myself. I do not control other people and how they receive feedback. If I did I would be probably set for life. 😁️️️️️️


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:53:40
content:
  Can you just point at specific things please that you feel that are missing or were deleted? That would be helpful☺️️️️️️️ Thank you.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:53:54
content:
  I think it's the removal that gets people. Not validating is fine, disagreeing is also fine, but there's a bit of line crossing for most when feedback is responded to with removal and bans.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:54:23
content:
  Basically for the most part it has been mostly things relating to people just outright disagreeing with Karel


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:54:31
content:
  Well for one, episodes of a weekly podcast/section that i've been hosting for years that brings much joy to the community and helps out a ton of users. But this was referred to as a "personal" thing for my own site or something.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:55:35
edit_date: 2023-07-28 04:58:47
content:
  Additionally, by removing documentation that I have created, you make me feel unwelcome and in feeling unwelcome I consider pulling my other documentation for Neos. I can delete all my tutorials in seconds and purge the wiki of my contributions quite easily.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:55:48
content:
  They contain a lot of information, like why things in Neos are the way they are. Or how to solve some not so common issue someone might have


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:56:16
content:
  Said resources almost 80% of the player base to my knowledge have used to learn how to play the game


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:56:54
edit_date: 2023-07-28 05:54:09
content:
  Then I will say this, get Karel to stop making split second decisions and let the community made moderation team do their job please


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:57:27
edit_date: 2023-07-28 04:57:40
content:
  It is not panic, it is a clearly thought out response to actions. As far as community sourced documentation goes there are tons of examples of people doing this exact same thing.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:57:37
edit_date: 2023-07-28 04:59:02
content:
  That is what caused this entire incident today. Karel made a decision that permanently removed a known player from Neos Because they though Karel had made an accidental deletion of a resource


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:59:16
edit_date: 2023-07-28 04:59:42
content:
  Generally, users being locked out of their account and thus being denied access to their property. Is a good reason to panic. So I don't blame them.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 04:59:32
content:
  I am sorry if people here felt it was abrupt. The ban you are refering to I would have to talk about it as things dissapear in this conversationg very fast.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 05:02:04
content:
  I can provide a brief summary if this helps. 

  A user's account is permanently locked, because there was a confusion about the wiki. Namely a large amount of community documentation being deleted without notice.

  I can provide usernames if it helps.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 05:02:26
content:
  I think since this looks like one bigger topic - we could definitelly set some place for discussion about office hours page. Or other pages. Possibly Discord might be a better place for that. ☺️️️️️️️@ProbablePrime


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 05:09:33
content:
  If you can provide usernames of specific people that you feel that are locked out of the account without a good reason that would be helpful. Thank you. Then I could actually look at it. It might take a little while to review but I am certainly willing to give it my time.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 05:40:23
content:
  It's more of the in-between from Wiki.neos.com and Wiki.neosvr.com since Wiki.neosvr.com was the original and the Wiki.neos.com was the redirect back to the old webserver


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 08:05:11
edit_date: 2023-07-28 08:47:57
content:
  Thank you for the info about the banned accounts. I've taken a look, and it seems that these users were being very rude and insulting towards Karel. Calling the company CEO "retarded" and telling them to "sit on a cactus" on the official Wikipage is completely unacceptable. They were also reverting changes performed by Karel. 

  While we understand that people have their opinions and emotions can run high, such behavior should not be displayed on the Neos official Wiki. As a result, these users were banned. 

  However, we also recognize that actions can sometimes be impulsive - for all of us and 
  if these respective users are willing to apologize to Karel and genuinely understand that such behavior is inappropriate and will not be tolerated, we are open to unlocking their accounts. It's essential for everyone to treat each other with respect even if we disagree with actions.

  They can email us at hello@neos.com and we can take it from there. Thank you all for understanding!


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 09:09:18
content:
  With the way they're wording things, it makes me believe that they'd rather handle things like that privately than through a public channel like this.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 10:57:35
content:
  Because Karel impulsively banned the wiki editors. We recognize that actions can sometimes be impulsive, for all of us.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 12:06:16
content:
  The Neos Wiki and Game accounts are interlinked, I don't think it was entirely intentional to get your cloud access revoked.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 12:17:39
edit_date: 2023-07-28 14:29:44
content:
  Therefore moderation of accounts, comunity and users should be done by the moderation team and not by the CEO.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 12:28:30
content:
  Also is this going to change from being "Community-run" to "Solirax run and managed"?
  https://wiki.neosvr.com/Neos_Wiki:About


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 12:28:38
content:
  It's normal practice for those with higher powers than Moderators to have moderation privileges. The issue at hand is the way the moderation was done, there was no direct rule or item in TOS shown as being broken, along with no warning additionally.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 12:31:10
edit_date: 2023-07-28 14:30:51
content:
  Especially with one only just reverting a page change thinking it was accidental, of course some have also taken the un-professional route with their words in the edit notes but that shouldn't have resulted getting completely banned from Cloud services.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 12:42:01
content:
  At other places, all with moderation privileges issue bans no longer than 24h at a time. Any longer bans would have to go through the ticketing system for moderation to be applied.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 12:43:21
content:
  It seems that Neos moderation team is also keeping track of moderation actions in a similar way, an actual Neos moderator would know better than me.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 16:35:30
content:
  I feel like there should be a warning on the wiki when someone is about to undo / amend changes made by staff. Because currently there's no indication whatsoever that an account on the wiki belongs to a staff member and if messing with that can get your Neos account suspended, that needs a big warning sign on it.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 16:42:46
content:
  Or better yet, the staff doing the moderation action for a direct insult should step back, take a deep breath and remember that they're trying to be professional, and give them the warning they're supposed to do, and potentially give them a temp ban instead of reacting childishly and letting their emotions get out of hand. 😊


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 16:52:30
edit_date: 2023-07-28 16:54:03
content:
  From what I've read about the issue so far, it seems that Karel should be the one apologizing first for letting his emotions get the better of him, and THEN the banned individuals apologize for insulting him. From what I understand, a large part of the NeosVR community looks unfavorably upon Karel, and holding someone's account hostage until they apologize is definitely not the way to get people to look at you in a better light.


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 23:27:07
content:
  As far as I am concerned, Froox loosing Neos will only happen when he gives up the code or Karel is able to PROPERLY continue development of the engine


type: message
date: 2023-07-28 23:29:53
edit_date: 2023-07-28 23:30:19
content:
  He resigned from development, doesn't change ownership. Technically nothing changed much. What really would change something is a real update. Server and client and with an actual featur on the list


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 01:22:57
content:
  but yeah for the new team, I am surprised I havent been banned from the telegram with how hair trigger Karel appears to be within the community


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 01:51:04
content:
  I think like the only reason why there is this confusion is because Karel *FINALLY* got around to the paperwork in the government offices


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 01:52:46
edit_date: 2023-07-29 01:53:16
content:
  I don't really see what it changes. I mean its not like that anyone was considering the situation to change before lawyers get involved 2 years ago. As they have not gotten involved, i can only  guess that a) everyone is stupid or b) the status quo can't be changed by law.


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 06:04:01
content:
  How long should I take to get a response about getting my account unlocked after emailing? I'm starting to lose hope of getting it back.


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 08:23:54
content:
  Good day every one .
  My name is Raymond am an artist with a lot of Passion for character modeling either anime , furry , vrchat avatar ,sfm , NSFW and alot more I can help you bring your idea to reality with my skill in case you need a anime or furry you are free to talk to me I can give you advice on it and you are going to enjoying massive joy by experience another realm of happiness on VR streaming platform.


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 20:22:25
content:
  One thing that's nice about a Discord is that you can separate channels for different discussions, and keep the big yikes conversations away from the hey I need help conversations


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 20:30:56
content:
  hey @malooniac I just logged into Neos and the bot says I "now have" a Gunter account when it used to say my Gunter account has been extended. Do you know why this is?


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 20:37:50
edit_date: 2023-07-30 01:20:05
content:
  The past week has shown that Karel should not be taking any moderation actions, ever. If he wants to keep the Neos community intact at all, he should, at the minimum, leave moderation actions to others. Neoss usability as a game comes from the community, and NCRs worth comes from Neos as a game. If there's no community, there's no game, and if there's no game, the biggest selling point of NCR becomes moot. Karels unprofessional behavior is extremely embarrassing and concerning at best.


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 21:49:32
content:
  Ha, yea. But the change we are craving for is not banning random people. The change we crave for is a sign that there is ANY development of actual neos. Like updates of the client and server.


type: message
date: 2023-07-29 21:50:49
content:
  People can leave on their own, they don't need help by getting banned. Thats not difficult. The difficult part is to convince them to stay


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 00:24:59
content:
  Not a gotcha or anything, but what's the latest on this?
  Currently on the Standalone build if I try and retrieve my NCR deposit address, I get an error. Im wondering if this new system will address that


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 01:33:08
content:
  You do hate to see it. I wonder if maybe archiving would be better than erasure? Maybe something at the top that says "Hey! This is no longer considered an official page but the content can still be found here if you're looking for it"


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 05:24:11
content:
  They, according to what they said. Undid an edit made by Karel, thinking the edit was a mistake (deleting an entire article), and Karel flipped their shit and just banned them from the entirety of Neos for "Vandalism of the Wiki"


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 05:25:51
content:
  Whys Karel even trying to delete the article? It's got useful information and is part of neoss history


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 06:59:42
edit_date: 2023-07-30 09:57:39
content:
  There were people leaving higly abusive comments and revertimg changes. One of the banned account was yesterday restored through hello@neos.com


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:18:17
edit_date: 2023-07-31 00:24:51
content:
  I saw ample mention of this innocent banning and wanted to know the actual context. As usual the truth was somewhere in the middle and lots of inconvenient details left out... but thats kind of how things always go around here, right?


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:32:50
edit_date: 2023-07-30 09:58:17
content:
  there's plenty of places you can insult Karel, abusing wiki edits to do it shouldn't be yet another one of them


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:33:55
content:
  Honestly yeah. The wiki is a pretty low point to shit on Karel for their incompetency in certain fields.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:35:26
content:
  (*cough cough* lack of ability to keep the ban hammer on the wall and the consistent deleting messages that are negative about NCR or Neos/Solirax)


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:37:38
edit_date: 2023-07-30 09:59:18
content:
  Sure, it can be justified. But not handling it through the proper channels, and lack of transparency on such matters where the community, which grants the NCR token its value to fekkin begin with, so desires... Not good things


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:38:35
content:
  You legit have banned people and then deleted the messages they said so they can't be peer reviewed under the guise of "FUD"  in the past


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:42:02
edit_date: 2023-07-30 09:59:52
content:
  I get that, it's why I TRY to remain neutral. But like... You are sitting there. As CEO, with the "Hammer", and your problems, are looking like nails to you.

  Sometimes you just have to deal with the good and ugly of the community


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:43:02
content:
  Maybe make one or two more telegram groups, or even a new discord, so that these conversations can be mostly organized


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:43:44
content:
  The hammer was there for years I only used it now your logic makes zero sense. i’ve also restored the account when there was an explanation and apology.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:48:17
content:
  It's a suggestion because it would grant better organization and an lot less stress on you having to scroll through Telegram in a single channel with an unknown amount of new messages between when you last checked and now


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 07:51:25
content:
  Also may I DM you about NCR? I think only this months NCR finally came in but not the past months NCR


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:01:00
content:
  or even signing into the wiki to fix an issue that was gonna bite the wiki links in the ass on Multi_Lanugage_UI eventually


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:01:15
content:
  You're actively editing a document, then people are defacing your edits right under you, insulting you... And you think they shouldn't be banned?


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:01:47
edit_date: 2023-07-30 10:03:52
content:
  I think those people were so drunk on years of petty insults that they just have thought that was OK


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:02:56
content:
  what I was told by the person banned, was they had thought that Karel had accidentally deleted a page and they restored it, not knowing it was actually intentional,


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:02:56
edit_date: 2023-07-30 10:04:13
content:
  And I'm disappointed people actively tried to spin it as "OMG Karel banning innocent people" then "Oh Karel will ban you if you insult him!" Trying to pretend it wasn't about wiki defacement


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:03:32
content:
  Hello 2FA works but is not required for login unless you enable it, this is done with a neos bot command in game. You can read more about this here: https://wiki.neosvr.com/2FA#Optional


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:04:20
edit_date: 2023-07-30 10:05:30
content:
  yeah they did that in the midst of others doing defacement... a mistake they were banned. but tbh lets mask off for a moment and be honest.. they were trying to trip him up in a petty manner I'd bet


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:07:35
content:
  I will be going through and fixing the links on the wiki to not point to github/frooxius and instead to github.com/Neos-Metaverse


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 08:11:34
content:
  Oh quick question about the future of neos from your team
  Will certain community made mods be integrated into NeosVR properly once your team gets going? Such as the "NoMoreTankControls" mod for Quest 2 users?


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:44:02
content:
  Karel I do programming, and I speak practically, from what I see there is a non-zero% likely hood of an rewrite of neos due to Froox not giving up the source, 

  And the features I am talking about are things like libraries to use licenses and such, 

  I am not saying a rewrite will be a bad thing, the gods know Neos has performance issues in its current state and several features need an remake,


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:44:30
content:
  I'm saying it will probably be back to where neos was originally during it's initial launch, not as complete as the current release is


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:45:01
content:
  I personally expect to see some regression before the team gets their feet under them for the project and for it to continue


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:45:13
content:
  Even if it might not be feature complete at the beginning, progress and adding features is a good thing


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:46:41
content:
  I am being reasonable lol, I have had to remake a few of my own projects in the past because I lost the source code. 

  Or remade a project from memory based on how it worked because I couldn't find it again,


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:47:30
content:
  I also once lost source code to important projects at work, I could recover from that using a decompiler and recovering what was lost


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:47:49
content:
  Features will be lost, that is an 100% given, but what we get in exchange, which given Karel's statements in the past, means it is highly likely that the new updated work will be open sourced


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:49:52
content:
  I’m really not seeing why features would be lost, if you developed it to feature parity or beyond no features would be lost


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:49:52
content:
  Take the asset import systems, or even LogiX, that shit is relatively complex, I can see if your team has difficulty recreating it if an total rewrite is needed


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:51:28
content:
  I would not want to do that, if this was my project. I would intentionally leave features out and substitute them with different features. So that it works way better to allow NFTs, land and other things that depend on NCR


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:51:48
content:
  Realistically, things with your team are not likely to function exactly with how Froox had it, but that doesn't mean it will be worse


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:53:04
content:
  that feels like there is a lot of room for improvement that your team quite possibly are capable of fixing with time


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:54:39
content:
  Hey Karel , Passing on an inquiry from the Mentor Leads meeting: We are unsure who our official point of contact is for Solirax given the recent restructuring. Could you please clarify this point?


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:55:17
edit_date: 2023-07-30 10:55:58
content:
  I am optimistic about things, but I can't help but see the realistic factors of them as well.

  Or as I leaned in the Boy Scouts, "Hope for the Best. Prepare for the Worst"


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:57:48
content:
  I mean...hell look at how many rewrites my Ultron API went under... Like...five different rewrites who's purpose was to optimized and built round an feature I thought would be good, only then to realize "this shit is broken" and completely rewrite again, to remove that broken feature, and in the end resulted in a better codebase


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:58:03
edit_date: 2023-07-30 10:58:26
content:
  It is inevitable, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily a bad thing. I see that as a good thing, a way to start over and to be better than before


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 10:59:43
content:
  Or in my case. Make all the mistakes yourself so you can do things for others so they don't make them


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:03:00
content:
  Irick, I'm contacting you on behalf of the Mentor Lead Team, we run the Neos Mentor Program. Our previous point of contact was Veer. I'm seeking some clarity as to continuity plans for the team hand-off.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:10:03
content:
  Having a good more intuitive UI and processes such as avatar setup would certainly help Mentors with a lot what they have to do now.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:12:28
content:
  Well, the question is still open. As Veer is no longer in the Neos Foundation, who takes their role?


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:12:54
edit_date: 2023-07-30 11:57:57
content:
  neosvr.com is official same as neos.com. However neos.com has Cloudflare DNS servers and if we link it directly to our hosting provider that the wiki is on they are vulnerable in case of a ddos attack. They defend using their own DNS. The wiki got hit by a large ddos attack recently and the hosting copmany has disabled neos.com for their servers.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:14:13
content:
  Unless we move it to their DNS which we cant because we need Cloudflare for Neos API otherwise the Neos Cloud costs would go way up


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:14:35
content:
  Basically, their hosting provider has their own DDOS protection, using cloudflare would render it borketh,

  so neos.com exists as a face website seperate from NeosVR.com,


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:16:36
content:
  But yeah, this is basically what I am seeking clarity on. It would help to know who we should be looping in for the goal of a smooth transition.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:16:38
content:
  I know quite a lot about network protocols and this doesn't add up. For example an API generates customized answers to requests, that usually cannot be cached. Adding another proxy in between would raise the costs even more instead of lowering them


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:20:21
content:
  And they seem to be unable to do things if Cloudflare, who is even more competent and able to prevent DDoS, is in front of them


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:20:49
content:
  Oh! That's not too hard! Are you guys using basic Cloudflare SSL? E2E SSL, or Full E2E (proxied server use cf provided SSL to cloudflare and then cloudflare serves their own to the client)


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:21:54
content:
  I had to setup Full End2End because caddy server (Webserver software) hates being behind cloudflare otherwise


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:24:15
content:
  The problem is that Neos is expecting its api not a Cloudflare is checking whethere youre not evil website


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:26:03
content:
  I see the problem. Because Neos client also goes through Cloudflare to API backend, the security level cannot be raised or it would consider legitimate access from the client as DDoS and shut the API off


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:26:22
edit_date: 2023-07-30 12:01:52
content:
  Also the host blocked it and I’m pretty sure they are not interested in more server downtime because of our kind community and wont unblock until we use a domain with their DNS


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:33:24
content:
  hey karel, how much are you paying your hosting provider (not azure) and what are the specs the servers got? (ballpark it, gb storage, and gb ram)


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:37:09
content:
  Which is weird, as that'd mean, Neos Pro users causing less cost on azure, than all the regular Neos users


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:38:14
content:
  Even though Azure CDN looks like more costs upfront, serving the GB from CDN is cheaper than serving the same amount from blob storage alone


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:46:32
content:
  so,
  webhost
  5€ Month
  1gb RAM
  5gb DB

  storage * TB allocated
  12,60€ 
  1TB
  3mil files

  I can litterally get a better speced dedicated VPS than what these guys provide at enviro for half the fekkin cost
  125€
  Xeon E3-1230Lv3
  4/8 Cores/Threads
  1.8ghz
  32gb DDR *3* Ram
  2TB SATA
  120GB SSD


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:46:43
content:
  Cloudflare has a low fixed monthly fee and can be even used completely for free. Hard to compete with that.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:47:13
edit_date: 2023-07-30 11:47:34
content:
  These guys are great a lot of them are my friends, have used their services for more than ten years now.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:47:24
content:
  Except when the free plan doesn't work out, as you obviously need features, that are out of scope of the free plan


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:50:13
edit_date: 2023-07-30 11:50:37
content:
  What are they doing to me exactly? We are the resons why their datacenter was down a few times for a lot of their other customers


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:51:16
edit_date: 2023-07-30 11:51:28
content:
  What attitude? We should use their DNS so they can protect themseves from ddos attacks not hard to understand


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:53:42
content:
  Okay imagine I say this

  "Hey! There are thousands of requests to the website, we dont know if its legitimate traffic or not due to your use of cloudflare. 
  Go talk to them about it, or use our services entirely"


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:54:05
content:
  It is not about the DDoS attacks, those are bad, let's not make them look better than they really are


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:55:45
content:
  We dont pay them enough for figuring how to deal with massive ddos attacks without their DNS they are good guys who live nearby and do mostly local stuff


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 11:58:13
content:
  In this one specific case yes because they are trying for their servers to remain online for other customers


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:05:00
content:
  Pretty much the only thing I am hesitant about the "this is what you will expect when using everything how we want it"


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:07:39
content:
  To me its one of those things that "Not EVERYTHING needs it" and actually puts me off of using services that provide it just out of the box


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:09:18
content:
  I tried setting up my own email server a while back (domain still has the mx records to prove it) but never used it and it took wayyy too many resources than I could afford at the time


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:12:15
content:
  Heard of Sendgrid, heard of good things about them, even looked at them for my own services but... ya know... no money


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:22:33
content:
  It could just be a mirror of the old wiki. It would make sense considering breaking changes (and deletions)


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:24:16
content:
  it looks like the entire wiki was just imported over as a snapshot, akin to forking an repo on github


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:26:41
edit_date: 2023-07-30 12:26:49
content:
  You would have to have access to the database to do that. Looks more like combination of data mining a phishing


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:27:52
content:
  I personally dont see any harm in it, as long as it gets an disclaimer that its an unofficial source


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:31:29
content:
  I... i mean its speculation. Does Froox still has access to that DB? If yes, he would have given Probable probably a copy


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:32:27
content:
  I see. Well i still think that probably someone random of the community has done it.  I think backups exist on the side of the "other team". I am actually pretty certain.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:33:54
content:
  ProbablyPrime is basicly "the teacher" of neos. He always teaches people how to do things, unrelated to what he does himself. Its why he is so valuable to the community.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:34:52
content:
  But i don't deny the fact that he could have done it, just its a very strange accusation considering that i think ProbablyPrime would just have used a backup.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:37:23
content:
  I certainly assume anyone working with a product like neos has lots of backups. I am willing to bet on you that Froox has a backup of anything neos related. Thats just how programmers do things. We don't trust technology. If that toaster does a strange noise, thats why the shotgun is beside it.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:38:16
content:
  Probable has never had access to Wiki and Tomas hasn’t got access since he resigned from Solirax CoreDev about two years ago


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:39:28
content:
  I am sure you know better then me than. But Thomas did patch neos relative recently, and the api change was relative recently too. So i assumed that he had access.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:50:43
content:
  legit, there is enough documentation and tools avaliable I could write an wikimedia scraper for just the XML


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:58:15
content:
  Dos mean denial of service, that includes the intent to deny service for other people by preventing the server to function normally


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 12:58:49
content:
  Yes but ddos warnings are often triggered by unexplained ten thousands of requests, something that can obviously happen by cloning


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:25:06
edit_date: 2023-07-31 06:53:06
content:
  afaik, directly from the edit messages off the wiki themselves, one user (probably the one you are referring) believed a mistake was happening, there are also still many edits including insulting comments
  there was no discretion in the account limits however


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:28:07
content:
  You know what the user beleives how? Some kind of a superpower to see into peoples minds to read their thoughts I suppose.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:29:48
edit_date: 2023-07-30 14:38:34
content:
  Defacing is a very subjective thing. If Karel believes that the users are lowering the value/usefulness of the wiki he owns by restoring these office hours pages, then it is defacing.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:30:40
edit_date: 2023-07-30 14:30:56
content:
  Ahh you don’t know you’re just assuming. Don’t believe everything people say and write. The world we live in is unfortunately bit more complicated than that.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:35:54
edit_date: 2023-07-30 14:50:15
content:
  The “office” hours info can be useful on the Discord, wiki clone, or Probables personal website/blog but not on official website/wiki impersonating a Neos contractor or employee


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:37:30
edit_date: 2023-07-30 14:51:29
content:
  Community content is very welcome, thats basically all the wiki is just not impersonating Neos employees


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:43:04
edit_date: 2023-07-30 14:51:17
content:
  "Oh, woe is me, I twisted my friends work into something with barely any worth, and now they want nothing to do with me."


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:44:42
content:
  I twisted it by wanting a better UI, Neos being open source and not sabotaging NCR 😂 I’m the most evil person alive.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:46:48
content:
  Pretty much the only thing I can really "hate" you for, is trying to shove crypto into an unfinished product,


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:48:04
content:
  Once the number starts going down, it really crashes because everyone sells. There was nothing stopping it.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:50:17
edit_date: 2023-07-30 14:54:14
content:
  You know what I think, I think what is really happening is that people are just angry with reality. That stuff costs money and you have to get them somehow. That there are authorities in the world. And I’m a representation of that for them and an easy target. I get it. I don’t love how some things work as well. If I could wave a magic wand to not need money to do something like Neos I would for sure.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:51:08
content:
  I think the main issue is that people are pissed at those who exploited the NCR token for their own personal gain and left the project entirely,


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:52:38
content:
  It’s their money and they have the right to sell. What is the real problem is when people from the company distance themselves from the token.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:54:25
content:
  The token has no value without the project/company/foundation. Again holders are not interested in things that decrease the value of token they are holding.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:57:42
edit_date: 2023-07-30 18:37:07
content:
  Sometimes it's better to just walk away from conversations like this and work on the bigger picture to solve problems, then in the long term things will work out


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 14:59:11
edit_date: 2023-07-30 18:37:52
content:
  Not when it affects Money and you only have it in one tiny channel....

  It should have been: 
  - Notfy via announcements
  - Neos Bot
  - E-Mails even

  And definatly Longer than what was it? Half a day or so?


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 15:00:21
edit_date: 2023-07-30 15:00:40
content:
  I don’t think it was that interesting to most of the community, doing it in the NCR channel was because thats where people interested in NCR were


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 15:01:17
edit_date: 2023-07-30 18:38:05
content:
  Every Patreon User was involved with NCR.
  Maybe a handfull of those people were activly looking into that specific channel that had no active pings.


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 15:05:00
content:
  I often mute some channels or use sleep mode on my smartphone in general for specific times. Its very important for a good sleep


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 15:06:12
content:
  they do have usually a sleep mode, like to shutdown after 30 minute and the time is extended by 30 minute if it pops up and you click OK


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 15:07:09
content:
  I think NCR is kind of stable. Much will depend on what Karels team is doing next... showing upcoming development


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 15:08:45
edit_date: 2023-07-30 15:09:39
content:
  Don’t know what you mean by Neos Credits being resolved, but we are working towards an exciting update and things seem to be moving in a very positive direction from what I can see


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 19:26:49
edit_date: 2023-07-30 19:44:18
content:
  Hilarious that the only shit you ppl can come up with against Karel is trying to fund the project with crypto as a last resort (that Froox also initially approved and supported), running a stupid informal poll in discord, and what amounts to a clerical error that was fixed immediately when pointed out. 

  Even assuming for the sake of argument that Karel was in the wrong on all of those things, the team's response to go nuclear and blow it all up was stupid beyond belief


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 19:58:11
content:
  its not super uncommon that some people delete the original folder and it breaks
  sometimes the folder link changes somehow and then the folder goes to nowhere but i only experienced that once


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 20:46:54
edit_date: 2023-07-30 22:38:15
content:
  Afternoon/Evening. Do you have a launch/release date or at least can provide teasers/screenshots/details on what the update will contain? And also, would you be able to share how this supports Neos/NCR? Thanks!


type: message
date: 2023-07-30 23:16:23
edit_date: 2023-07-31 11:02:35
content:
  I say that because it happens on my own stuff that (I obviously) didn't delete
  Like for instance, my worlds folder can't load for some reason


type: message
date: 2023-07-31 23:26:49
content:
  simply here to observe for the time being; important to stay up to date so I can keep making weird cursed nonsense


type: message
date: 2023-07-31 23:27:40
edit_date: 2023-07-31 23:27:51
content:
  If ya wanna chat neos or materials or smthing ping me on discord @gareth48 thats a better way to reach me


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 00:04:02
edit_date: 2023-08-01 00:39:50
content:
  Its way more complicated than that. Yes there's nothing stopping outsiders from coming in and pumping the token and making everyone emotional. The reasons were that crypto as an entire category was (unfairly or fairly) a taboo among young people, that everyone wanted to save face for Froox and push the nasty crypto thing off as being SOLELY Karel which is not true... And tbh the Neos devs chose to play into it because they didn't want to be on the unpopular side of the fence. This caused more fighting because it felt like one side was being thrown under the bus. To be fair some members of that side were making stupid suggestions but they were outnumbered like 10 to 1.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 00:07:33
edit_date: 2023-08-01 00:39:49
content:
  it wasn't fair to those people who weren't outsiders abd bought NCR because they ACTUALLY LIKED Neos. Alot of foreign users, alot of Japanese, bought lots of it because they didn't have the same anti-crypto drama western communities do to crypto. Was it fair for them to be dragged into this drama about Karel?


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 01:22:54
content:
  Forgive me if I'm mistaken since I'm new, but wasn't the whole blow up because Karel was pushing through big changes that didn't have the approval of others?
  If I made something with someone, then later had limited control over its direction, I don't see why I would write code for it any longer either


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 02:10:55
edit_date: 2023-08-01 02:14:18
content:
  The situation is complicated, as truth is usually. In my personal opinion, yes, the biggest part of it all was the overexited changes combined with the loss of trust between Karel and Froox.

  After there was no more friendship to salvage, the standstill itself had less to do with the inability of anyone to change anything or the limited control, but more so that the company is owned equally by both.

  As such every development would be to the advantage of both or better not owned by any one of them alone. As such illogical to actually do it.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 02:12:33
content:
  I believe it was a small bonfire that was steadily growing over time and that particular thing was what dropped the Molotov cocktail onto the fire


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:11:21
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:34:15
content:
  well I'm not saying a blow-up was or wasn't justified. I'm saying the disagreements needlessly CHOSE to pull NCR holders into a fight they didn't want to be a part. Neos devs (all Froox's friends) chose to turn on the holders of NCR with no regard to who they were hurting, using them as bargaining chips in their disagreement with Karel


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:12:25
content:
  Neither am I, im saying this was probably built up over time and that last thing made everything fall apart


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:13:55
content:
  I'll hold my tongue because I don't want to get banned for FUD, but I understand why there would be hostility around that late 2021 period


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:14:24
content:
  From what I gather, Karel has always been "CEO" and was in thr background. Most of Froox friends hardly met or knew him. When NCR gained mass value very quickly, Karel started saying what changes would be made, supposedly in a sudden and unexpected way. One of those changes was new hires. Other issues were poorly ran, rushed polls over NCR features that caused some mayhem


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:16:04
content:
  well both sides felt that. I mean, if someone ignored NCR they wouldn't have noticed, but people online rarely choose the "I'll ignore the thing that doesn't affect or interest me"


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:17:35
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:46:10
content:
  its often said that Neos had a mass influx of cryptobros bothing the community, but in reality... Those cryptobros all went to the NCR channel and stayes isolated there. It was furries going into that channel LOOKING to argue.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:18:30
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:46:19
content:
  I guess I don't blame them when for months there had been crypto hate among youths on social media and then they get the chance to finally argue and spar with these hated dicks they'd been hearing about


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:18:45
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:46:54
content:
  I see we're back to accusing one small part of our community of things. 

  Why not just say "lots of users went into that channel looking to argue". It would be more accurate.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:21:06
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:48:36
content:
  I think there is not much to it anyway. NCR never had much to do with it, as well as Furrys. The only relation that even exists is that "Furries" where "Furrious" after some incident of Karel talking down and trying to ban some, but in the end even that incidents vanish into nothing. And as far as i remember Karel apologized for that incidents.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:21:39
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:21:47
content:
  If there were proper rules that were being moderated to, and random bans weren't being handed out left and right, sure


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:22:24
content:
  In the end it has nothing much to do with all of that. Crypto  kind of caused a bit of a spark because of Resources  involved that caused trouble with what Karel see as required to keep the company compliant, but any other kind of money would have caused that too.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:22:25
content:
  I dont know, I havent been around in awhile to see bans. we used to have a good time and be pretty lightly moderated


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:27:40
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:52:15
content:
  Orc, really, thats not the problem. Karel banned people for any kind of critic, expecially  after the wiki changes. One got a permanent ban neos wide because of a  wiki change.
  Lots of feelings, lot of bad blood... but again, small fry  compared to the problems already existing


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:31:55
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:52:37
content:
  The one got their account restored, the other two were not. And tbh after the constant harassment I dont know if I can blame him for taking the opportunity to flatten a few users over whatever


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:32:19
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:32:42
content:
  That's just bad moderation etiquette, if you have too strong feelings and not be able to control them, you shouldn't have access to moderation tools.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:32:52
content:
  Well, in my personal  opinion Karel should just  add moderators  and don't  do it himself. It would solve a lot of problems and personal feelings


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:33:26
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:52:59
content:
  Well,  thats true, but it happend. Karel feels kind of pushed against a wall because of the many voices against him, ... i guess... i kind of understand it. Still, its an overreaction.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:36:07
content:
  everyones got their back against the wall, we've all been at our throats but we can atleast be civil and honestly discussion always happens here in the end


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:38:42
content:
  I kind of feel  like he was proude of his current/upcoming changes, wiki got reworked in parts, and people are "just negativ"


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:38:43
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:52:11
content:
  the whole reason we're here is because we can say stuff without the overmoderation from the discord, and when fools like Prime pop in they can just try to pipe up but cant do anything


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:39:38
content:
  well karel has been conditioned to see everything he does gets backlash just because its him. we cant ezpect him to take any feedback now.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:41:51
content:
  Problem is, that feedback was.. ... mostly... truthful. But yes, he did feel like he got attacked i assume. Its also hard to be objective if you put lots of work in and yea...  ...


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:43:30
content:
  id like it if he didn't mod and just let us be, and we can assume he has bigger things to do. modding heavier in here wont benefit ncr any. delusional to thibk it would have any impact


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:45:27
content:
  Well, neos has lots of moderators... had lots of moderators (now inofficial moderators) so i guess 1 is not enough for a 24h moderation


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:50:54
edit_date: 2023-08-01 03:54:29
content:
  Nope, I build my own communities and platforms from the ground up instead of bitching about any bit of moderation


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:58:45
content:
  my solution is to ask karel to stop and soften it up, my suggestion is less modding, and if I was a mod I'd basically do nothing but ban racism, sexism, bots, threats etc.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 03:59:23
content:
  Fair enough, I honestly would not object to that as long as there is evidence and that evidence is not *deleted from fekking existance*


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:01:38
edit_date: 2023-08-01 04:36:51
content:
  Orc, please, thats exactly WHY Karel got into trouble in the first place. Exactly this kind of looking  down on people and obviously defamation/slander


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:05:52
content:
  I never claimed to being a "guru" nor have created communities on Neos; in fact, most of them are and were on platforms I made.
  For instance, my most popular are Matrix rooms and servers for the ones still existing, in the past forums, related to World of Warcraft private servers.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:15:56
content:
  Either way, I assume more moderators would only increase the frequency of moderation actions, and when all the current ones are already massively overstepping reasonability, that just doesn't seem like a good idea


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:18:10
edit_date: 2023-08-01 04:38:40
content:
  Again, depends on the quality of moderation, looking at the moderation team handling in-game matters, they are doing a pretty good job.
  The moderation in here tho is sketchy at best now.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:19:18
content:
  I feel like it's also how the moderation systems are used. The neos moderation team logs and scrutinizes every action, but here, it seems like people are banned on a whim


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:20:16
edit_date: 2023-08-01 04:43:22
content:
  Exactly, there needs to be logs and accountability.
  That's something I don't like about Telegram, nothing is shown like if a message is deleted, there's no way of seeing that this message was deleted unless someone replied to it earlier or when a message is edited, no way of seeing history.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:22:38
content:
  In theory they could have also completely forgone all these fail-safes themselves, and I feel like that would have led to the same problems we're experiencing here


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:24:28
content:
  In the places where I do moderation, it's definitely the case for edge cases or more sensitive decisions and I would assume it's the same for Neos, that stuff is run through multiple people.
  Then for more obvious stuff like spam, no need for that.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 04:24:57
edit_date: 2023-08-01 04:44:02
content:
  Would love to see an auto-archive bot, that records history of deletions, joins, leaves, bans, mutes
  there probably already is one in this chat, but i've got no clue how to access it.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 08:01:56
edit_date: 2023-08-01 09:09:49
content:
  Hello everyone🙂, based on your recent feedback and suggestions regarding clarity of Telegram moderation rules - we have made some minor amendments to the Neos Telegram guidelines https://wiki.neosvr.com/Neos_Telegram

  1. We have added a brief explanation of FUD - what constitutes FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) and we strongly discourage such behavior.  

  2. We have removed 3 warnings rule. The reason being that we have received some complaints of members who were (quite understandably) expecting 3 warnings but in a very fast paced discussions like these, unfortunatelly it is not always possible to adhere to this rule. However we will do our best to always try and adress any issues with some prior warnings and you are always encouraged to message us or email to hello@neos.com if you feel you have been wrongly banned.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 08:05:57
content:
  As for the request of making topics for this group - I think that is a good idea to consider as it seems to gradually become more and more difficult to navigate in this discussion. However, we need to ensure we can support the logistics first. And we are also looking at making these rules clear for the general content contributions guidance on Wiki - so the situations like we have experienced last week hopefully can be avoided.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 08:07:42
content:
  You are welcome to react to any of these messages and rule updates of course, just please let's be polite and respectful. I appreciate everyone in this channel who is still able to do that 😁 Thank you.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 08:17:37
content:
  And yes, Nonny was wonderful and he did a lot of amazing work however he had some other commitments which took a preference. We will be looking to onboard the right person with good work ethics soon of course.🙂Someone with a patience of Dalai lama, reflexes of Flash and no need for sleep or eating. Easy task.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 13:26:24
edit_date: 2023-08-01 16:33:45
content:
  Do you have the ability to temporarily silence or mute people as admins of this group? If so you could still adhere to 3 warnings in a fast paced discussion, just give them a timeout and throw them an @ and say hey stop you're violating rules.

  I think the complaints were more about the fact that they should have been given warnings before bans, not because of a wiki technicality that needed to be fixed but because the three warning rule is a more fair way to handle things


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 13:28:54
edit_date: 2023-08-01 16:34:04
content:
  Morning Andrea, thank you for clarifying the rules on FUD, they are very clearly written. However, I am concerned that the users in this channel have been promised information by the CEO numerous times with no delivery on those commitments which could itself fall under the definition of FUD by making forward statements which does not appear to be safe harboured by the rules. Karel has promised to white paper updates, and a release of a product or an update to a product, but so far these commitments have not been followed through with.

  Most recently, Karel stated on July 27 that we are days away from a system update, but has not provided any specific timelines, specifics on what the release will include, screenshots, teasers etc. I requested that some information be posted as to the aspects of the release, but nothing has been provided yet.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 13:30:52
edit_date: 2023-08-01 16:34:16
content:
  As long as the 'fud ban' is referred to as a 'fud ban' it isn't a very good moderation rule. Minimize your jargon.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 13:34:32
content:
  It would be like trying to pass off "Don't be a dick" as a rigorous rule by defining a bundle of dick-like traits. Ultimately it will only work with a group that a) is fine with the casual attitude of moderation and b) comfortably uses the phrase.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:23:08
content:
  I'd also like to be able to ask questions about uncertainties (the U in FUD) that I have, to get some answer that evoke confidence and clarity. Though this kind of makes me afraid (F) to even ask those questions


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:25:23
content:
  Of course ideally we prefer to give warnings, or personally I like the expression of “gentle notifications☺️” . 
  I just don’t think it needs to be specifically 3, as some sort of magic number that we then have to track 😁. 

  I think silencing for a period of time is a very good idea too, as you are right, things always seem a little different when we had the time to process and cool off, thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it and I’ll add some note about silencing to the rules☺️👍


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:31:44
edit_date: 2023-08-01 14:44:18
content:
  No, I am not saying to use the current one as that one is unofficial, but making an new official one would likely be a good idea as shown by the current discord, not as many people have. Nor want to use Telegram. (an application that requires it to be installed onto your phone in order to be used)


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:32:51
content:
  Hi Rucio, thank you and totally I see how you might be frustrated by this delay, honestly it’s just that we need to get things really right and there has been a few glitches that we are still working out. 

  We have an amazing wizard programmer working on it but I do respect his time and workload if that makes sense. We are very near. Little teaser is a good idea let me see what could be done about it. It’s always a dilemma of how much to save for the “bang” 😁

  Once again, thanks for the feedback ☺️


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:43:43
content:
  I’m super sorry Thomas that you feel afraid to ask questions now - perhaps it’s not the most encouraging phrasing I agree and so I really want to be explicitly clear that this is not to close down conversation. 
  (Where would be all the thrill and fun and..cheese?😁)

  It’s more to outline what are some instances that are actually quite unhelpful when most of us wish for the NCR and Neos overall to grow and thrive. I think constructive is the key word here. And balancing of different arguments. If we are constantly swinging towards negatives that of course it’s not helpful, the same way it wouldn’t be helpful to be overly optimistic. Middle ground is where we should try to aim for. 
  Although paradoxically it’s the hardest. 
  Does that make sense?☺️


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:50:09
edit_date: 2023-08-01 16:36:45
content:
  I totally see your point and it is something that I would love to look into once we are sure to have  sufficient resources as it will require even more maintenance than TG but it’s definitely worth better suited to lot of the topics especially more technical and gameplay related ☺️ plus there is Nitro 🤪( which I don’t pay for but I like to feel that I could 😆)


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:50:38
edit_date: 2023-08-01 16:36:23
content:
  Thank you. I'm not frustrated, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy between statements that can be regarded as FUD if stated by members of the community or NCR holders, and yet the same rules are not applied for announcements or statements (non-safe harbored) by the Neos Foundation (CEO, COO etc). The same empty promises/statements can also be said by the Neos Foundation can also be stated with the intention of causing manipulation.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:51:45
edit_date: 2023-08-01 16:37:05
content:
  I request that the Neos Foundation release something inline with the promises and commitments already stated by the Neos Foundation. Everyone's patience are running out. When can the foundation commit to a release so this is not apparent FUD at this point?


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:52:25
content:
  Yes I know, it’s what I meant, I just like the idea of it but I never actually bother to pay for it 😄


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:53:27
edit_date: 2023-08-01 14:53:38
content:
  Could we agree, that truthful statements, however much they sound like they are FUD, are never to be dealt with as FUD?


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 14:59:34
edit_date: 2023-08-01 15:00:23
content:
  Fire me a DM on discord, User 'merith'

  I have ran a few communities before. No expert but I have an pretty good feel for things


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:01:39
content:
  Well if they are supported by evidence of some sort then I personally don’t see why it should be perceived as FUD. I’m talking of objective evidence. And before someone jumps at me and opens some sort of Pandora box 😁..we really are in this boat together and we are the ones choosing if it’s going to sink or float. 

  So this is why I see constant circling towards classic negative themes like not really helpful because nobody can move further.
  Let’s bring not just arguments but also suggestions. That is definitively welcome. ☺️


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:02:19
content:
  Let's not forget that sometimes how w community feels about something can be considered evidence when it comes to these regards


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:04:20
edit_date: 2023-08-01 20:23:01
content:
  Well, if you try to leave the house, but find the front door is locked and your key isn't working. That's how those happen


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:04:55
content:
  I understand the community sentiment unfortunately. And I think we can do a lot of the things better to change that. Starting in here. ☺️


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:06:11
content:
  With how much damage karel has done with recent actions alone, that will take A LOT of time, but not impossible


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:07:35
content:
  In my opinion, the future of neos under Karel is a coin flip, it's either gonna flop from community drama, or it's going to rise again, only thing to do is to wait and see


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:09:36
content:
  Anyway, I'm looking for some clarity regards the existing discord server, whether it is or isn't official regards Neos. As it is still linked from Patreon, but seems to be ran by people no longer employed/contracted by Solirax (correct me if I'm wrong.) What are the actual facts in this regard?


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 15:13:40
content:
  Well we can look at it this way or we can work on this more closely together. 
  You all are the community. 
  Without community there is need for Neos. 
  So of course I want to try to bring as much clarity as possible - so please any of these specific questions just tag me and I will read it tomorrow and try to address it as it is terribly late where I live and I think in the  morning my brain is going to have much more power and juice 😁
  Thank you 🙏


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 19:47:53
edit_date: 2023-08-01 20:08:13
content:
  "Working more closely together" is us bunking down and entirely ignoring any wrongdoing. You and Karel have refused to do anything but double down on your many missteps over the years, barely even acknowledging any of our grievances. So many of your responses feel completely tonedeaf, and it's why we're so unhappy. How dare you try and pin this responsibility on the community that's already stuck with you for this many years.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 21:44:56
edit_date: 2023-08-01 21:48:20
content:
  This world truly needs love and kindness. 

  Maybe if you just try to see Karel as a human being then you could understand him better.

  He dedicated his twenties to a dream and colleague he dearly loved. He has been working his ass off under enormous amount of pressure to give you Neos, your new friends, and all the fun you guys surely had on the platform. 

  Karel is now a grown man, who is well aware of his past mistakes. 

  It’s our time now to help Karel catch his dream and rise up to the stars. ✨ 
   
  He deserves to be happy just as you all do. 🧚‍♂️


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 22:01:56
edit_date: 2023-08-01 22:17:13
content:
  The problem is less seeing Karel as a human being or remembering what he has done for neos. Really, most people don't even care about his mistakes he did two years ago and i applaud him for having  a family with child.

  Where you are mistaken is his awareness of mistakes at times. Its not something that happend a long  time  ago, its something that happens again and again, last two days ago.

  So no, its not all rainbows and sunshine. Things have to change and be better. If they are, past mistakes will be forgotten.

  IF Karel would start learning from those mistakes and tries to change... perhaps change the cause or possibility of those mistakes by changing who moderates.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 22:14:43
edit_date: 2023-08-01 22:16:53
content:
  Even in the past days he's actively making huge missteps that massively damage the communities trust in him. We've been supporting the game for years and he's still doing these things to us, and if he truly wants our help, he can start rebuilding trust, whenever he pleases. Why would we even help him if we could just be given the boot at the drop of a hat?


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 22:16:54
edit_date: 2023-08-01 22:40:52
content:
  You're speaking as if any of us are bringing up old stuff for the sake of smearing him. Were exposing an ongoing pattern in his treatment of the community.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 22:18:26
edit_date: 2023-08-01 22:41:22
content:
  Seeing someone as human isn't about letting them get away with any and all possible cruelty, it's allowing them to learn, and Karels had plenty of time to do so.


type: message
date: 2023-08-01 23:49:07
edit_date: 2023-08-01 23:49:36
content:
  The same "community" that tried to chase Karel out of Neos and have been shitting on him for the last two years demanding that he treat them with respect and take their demands seriously... 

  Just no self awareness at all


type: message
date: 2023-08-02 00:40:31
edit_date: 2023-08-02 00:48:55
content:
  Lets see. Yes, much of the community would be more then happy if Karel would be out of the picture for Neos.


type: message
date: 2023-08-02 00:42:00
edit_date: 2023-08-02 01:14:09
content:
  Its that if Froox is out of the picture, the literal inventor of Neos is gone. The one that made the software, the things most love about Neos. If Karel is gone, the CEO would be gone... but the development could have continued


type: message
date: 2023-08-02 00:43:13
content:
  But that is old news. It doesn't really apply anymore.  Sooner than later there will be a split now anyway. "Just" two years are lost forever.


type: message
date: 2023-08-02 03:10:46
edit_date: 2023-08-02 03:17:40
content:
  Ehhh I didn't lose any years. I've been playing the heck out of Neos. Thankfully the battle in the clouds still left us a working playground below


type: message
date: 2023-08-02 03:23:52
content:
  Unfortunately I don't get to play the "full game" so to speak. Desyncing issues prevents me from playing fully on a lot of larger sessions, especially headless ones. Development continuing would at least give me hope for this being resolved
  Can still talk to people, but can't see items they spawn until much later


type: message
date: 2023-08-02 03:57:54
edit_date: 2023-08-02 03:58:57
content:
  This is exactly my point lol. Yall want him gone and have not been exactly subtle about it the last two years. Yet at the same time expect him to listen to you and consider you part of the "community" that he should be serving as CEO. Do you really not see the hypocrisy?


type: message
date: 2023-08-02 04:07:32
edit_date: 2023-08-02 04:28:24
content:
  Your trying to say that just because they don't agree with the actions being done, they are not apart of the community


