# messages

type: message
date: 2022-04-14 05:38:46
edit_date: 2022-04-14 06:25:07
content:
  The furry community in the Neos Discord spews anti-Karel vitriol 24/7, but the moment you clap back they immediately play the "You lack empathy" card because their entire modus operandi is weaponizing perpetual victimhood.


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 05:41:05
content:
  Like what did you expect when posting a picture of froox being punched while being told "shut up furry"


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 05:43:00
edit_date: 2022-04-14 07:46:28
content:
  Lmao hypocrisy at its finest. Literally hours before people were posting memes about Karel and I embezzling and a bunch of other cringy made up hate.


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 05:44:49
content:
  yeah its a one way street it seems, and theyve been in hate mode for so long they dont even see how pissy and filled with bile their behavior is


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 05:49:26
edit_date: 2022-04-14 05:49:42
content:
  before this telegram channel even existed I saw people in the discord saying Tizzy embezzled, how it "made their blood boil" and how they cant wait till she gets hers.


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 05:52:49
edit_date: 2022-04-14 05:53:05
content:
  Good morning everyone, I am sending positive vibes from sunny Prague and just would like to kindly remind everyone to remember that Neos is a place for everyone. There are people who might come from all sorts of social and cultural backgrounds and that is okay. Having opinions is normal just maybe lets remember that words are powerful and hate from any party won't ever produce anything pretty.


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 07:28:29
edit_date: 2022-04-14 07:48:54
content:
  I hope you won't see this as making the situation too light. In all seriousness, I really understand that for a lot of you this is less than fun situation. We really appreciate your support and that you choose to stick with us on this somewhat rocky cruise towards better future.


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 08:16:27
edit_date: 2022-04-14 08:54:31
content:
  takes time, but it'll get on them someday, and someday Neos playercount will be up there above VRC and beyond


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 08:31:48
content:
  but with better community behavior and some less toxic devs/mods on discord, yes we'd all be happier and with a better game


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 08:33:47
content:
  well without the vitriol from bored kids on discord and devs who are literal assholes forshadowing their intent to rugpull, yes I think Neos would be much better off


type: message
date: 2022-04-14 08:34:30
content:
  and I mean rugpull very literally. Froox boldly stated his desire to rugpull us all. Don't forget that.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 02:29:26
content:
  Noticing Reactant and Tizzy have alot in common in that they were uncontroversial figures who loved Neos but happened to have pro-crypto opinions, now they've been after-the-fact revised as corrupt actors.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 02:30:49
edit_date: 2022-04-15 02:31:17
content:
  If you want to have such an opinion, you might can avoid getting shit on if you act extremely meek but even then no I don't think it will work


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 02:33:49
content:
  I don't really know either of them very well. But I've had several conversations about how to better decentralize Neos' service architecture without much fuss.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 02:34:56
content:
  I wouldn't know, but since I assume it has nothing to do with Neos, so it comes across as digging up dirt.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 02:55:58
content:
  I dont think a metaverse is possible without decentralized ways of managing people's things between different platforms, and afaik DLT is the only way to really do that unless we want a corporation like Meta to fill that role


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 02:56:04
content:
  The only thing I know about that, is apparently it was a large enough kerfuffle to make it into the academic literature of Hypermedia. Specifically on navigating the role of 'grief play' in the process of governance within virtual communities. It's actually a pretty fascinating read if you're interested in the social dynamics of online spaces: https://www.academia.edu/6123066/Governance_in_Virtual_Worlds_Grief_Play_Hacktivism_and_LeakOps_in_Second_Life (It also mentions LambdaMOO, which I think deserves more wide-spread recognition as really the originator of a lot of the paradigms we have adopted)


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 02:58:57
content:
  I'll give it a read. Lucaedr kind of filled me in. As I was telling him, for what its worth, griefing was my entry into SL. But then I met spme nice people, furries actually, and became a normal user. I definitly think Tizzy believes in and loves virtual worlds and spaces, so I dunno but maybe her situation was similar


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:05:46
edit_date: 2022-04-15 03:07:13
content:
  I'm fairly neutral on griefing for a lot of the reasons outlined in that article, TBH. I do think it has the potential to be a pointedly transgressive political strategy in virtual communities and I think that's a valid way to enact direct action. When i was first coming to my own online I did my fair share of flame baiting. It's important to maintain environments where that exploration of self is possible, even if it's equally important that we manage it for those who could be outsizedly impacted.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:31:27
content:
  Part of me wonders if that's going away slowly. The major platforms are strictly monitored and even in games non-consensual pvp like WoW's open world are increasingly limited


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:32:37
edit_date: 2022-04-15 03:32:50
content:
  it seems the current common school of thought is if all that is removed we'll have better pnline interactions and yeah I also dont really believe that


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:36:50
content:
  yeah guess it depends on the platform and game.. Ive always just favored being given the tools to moderate myself. I think that can be refined so well, and every game seems to do it differently


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:37:45
content:
  little things like if I block someone in a game, Id like if it told that person in some way that I did so, so I have the piece of mind knowing they know I cant hear their stuff


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:38:20
content:
  like I think little things like that could really strike a happy medium and still let people be flamers or jerks when they want to


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:40:34
content:
  as for Neos I dont think ingame behavior aside from outright scamming should warrent a ban, but then again thats another reason I favor blockchain tech, where there's no need for me to trust the studio to not ban me at a whim and take away the things Ive spent time and money on


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 03:57:14
edit_date: 2022-04-15 05:29:27
content:
  That article discusses the effectiveness of 'code-based' management. Generally, I think it doesn't address the root of the issue. I'm interested in the question of community governance in the context of a truly open, decentralized network. In the context of the article, one without 'gods'. That means, at least to me, the establishing of points of etiquette and self-governance with the institutions of mediation firmly embedded in the community they serve.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 10:11:14
edit_date: 2022-04-15 16:32:24
content:
  As we’ve seen happen to Karel - just because a group of people pin a label on somebody doesn’t mean it’s true. Second Life was my entire world for almost 20 years and it had a major impact on almost every aspect of my life from my career to meeting my fiancé and countless friends. I tend to be pretty vocal when I feel certain people have been wronged, and just as I’ve been standing up for Karel - I stood up for people that were seen as miscreants in-world. The group I ran (Woodbury University) was a real life school in Burbank, California that had a virtual campus presence in SL. We opened up our doors to anybody who wanted to participate including those who were seen as outcasts in other groups. Because of this, certain toxic bloggers painted us as a griefer group and it’s why the furries in Discord continue to try and discredit my opinions after reading them at face value.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 10:17:32
content:
  A lot of those outcasts went on to become successful developers, artists, and industry professionals because we gave them direction and purpose - and most importantly a sense of belonging.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 10:18:40
content:
  Many of them ended up attending the real university and getting degrees. It was an incredibly successful educational outreach, as unorthodox as it seemed.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 10:31:25
edit_date: 2022-04-15 10:33:15
content:
  It's a really interesting case study TBH. I really enjoyed reading through the context. The author draws parallels between Wikileaks hactivism and the events leading to the exposure of the Braniac surveillance system, which is a bit hyperbolic to be sure but it does serve as an effective argument as to the political nature of emergent play within these sort of sandbox communities.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 10:36:49
content:
  Emergence and presence are definitely what makes spaces like SL and Neos special. There’s an organic dynamic to it that gives the experiences so much more meaning than scripted experiences. I see my time and experiences in the Metaverse as equally valid and important as my real life and to me they are extensions of each other.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:00:10
content:
  Thats incredibly interesting and even admirable. It says alot they would try to slyly reference an SL ban in a vague way to, again, mislead and gaslight people just like they are with Karel.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:00:24
edit_date: 2022-04-15 11:10:17
content:
  The same old "we can't talk about it or give reasons but... me and all my friends agree he's the problem" methods that highschool children use.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:01:41
content:
  When people were like "wait till you hear about her history in SL..." I was imagining the worst, like, what was it some sort of strange obscene SL community? Nope. It was a bunch of nothing.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:02:07
content:
  No doubt. I grew up in MUDs and IRC. I came into my own mostly in that medium, embracing the freedom of self that those spaces afforded me. They were fading away at the time they became important to me, a lot of the early SL dynamics reminded me of what I saw in those communities, though I didn't have any hardware good enough to use a viewer without frustration ;) Neos has a lot of the feeling of the early web communities I remember. Everything is very personal, difficult to survey without getting involved. Organic and messy and all the things that make up a living thing. Though that's hard to sell to someone who wants to expand their marketing outreach XD Community management is hard and we still don't seem to have cracked the question of how to really deal with the paradox of these intimate and vastly massive 'platforms'.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:04:40
content:
  I think there’s a certain beauty in virtual imperfection because it captures humanity in a really authentic way. I believe Agent Smith touched on this in the original Matrix. 🙂


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:14:33
content:
  It's more they were there. It was a culture war. I'm sure that the histories that unfolded there are complex, especially with SA and 4chan involved, bad blood was practically guaranteed. (Though given the JLU's whole overstepping into FurNation I am somewhat curious as to the opinion of those who are aware of the situation in it's fuller context view the situation)


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:15:12
content:
  Were you involved in LambdaMOO? I’ve had a few interesting conversations with Julian Dibbell. Lots of parallels and lessons to be learned from the early days of online communities.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:17:15
content:
  Furnation was my first community in second life and where I eventually met Geenz as a mod back in the 2000s. I’m old 👵🏻


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:20:21
content:
  My grandpa tried to get me into it when I was younger :) So, kinda. I didn't stick around, didn't have the attention span at the time, then when I did have the attention span, I was running a MUD for my friends. I have become more interested in it as my attention has started to shift outside of pure technology into the social systems that technology enables.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:22:35
content:
  PLATO is another one of those communities I really enjoyed looking at, though I think LambdaMOO is probably more directly comparable to NEOS/SL.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:26:58
content:
  At the end of the day the technology is a means to an end of facilitating connections between people across distances and cultural borders. The strides we make technologically help to increase the human presence factor. Neos is special because it increases the nonverbal bandwidth possible between users with tech like FBT but also allows for communities to collaborate in real time with the in-world toolset. I was legitimately excited to see it come together because there is nothing else like it - but here we are.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:34:36
content:
  The technology stack is still really the only game in town. With maybe the exception of A-Frame, but even the most developed A-Frame project (Mozilla Hubs) is years behind. I am somewhat worried that we're not on the right track for the community to get to the point that it can move forward with the project with any social cohesion.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:36:48
content:
  For the most part it was university (and high-school!) students, until they tried to commercialize the service, but very few people bought a link because the people who wanted to bring it to market didn't see the network as the product and instead marketed the lessonware on stand-alone units as the home option.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 11:50:43
content:
  Always a weird feeling to hear that XD I'm just nerding out about stuff I like! It's like... super useless trivia most times.


type: message
date: 2022-04-15 14:53:05
content:
  dont think it's useless trivia, you being knowledgible about some of the first virtual worlds ever made, which is pretty fascinating


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 05:48:55
content:
  its looking okay, just we're sort of hostage to the outcome of an emotional argument, so we're here waiting for the verdict, but feeling good personally because I like and trust Karel/Andrea that they got us


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 09:49:22
content:
  What do you think is going on with the developers? They've been accusing karel or mistreating them. To give them credit, they are the ones actually developing the platform. But do you think there might be a hidden agenda?


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:15:55
content:
  but it's known to happen in thr startup world. A situation where funding gets secured, then suddenly a member of the team in a good position who has nore direct access to the other devs will try to sabotage thr funding or VC, prevent growth and drum up drama and take control of a project or company


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:18:42
content:
  So Karel is just as active and has sacrificed just as much as Froox I'd argue, but people want to paint it as "Froox was the only who developed it" which is an assbackwards way of looking at things. Its like "you just be the guy who pays for everything and works behind the scenes and I'll take all the credit and the entire IP belongs to me" which is what is trying to be argued


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:19:37
content:
  the kind of viewpoint only a child living at home could have who hasn't had their sleeves rolled up working in the business side of things and doesn't know how exhausting it is.


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:28:01
edit_date: 2022-04-16 15:37:53
content:
  afaik the 'mistreating' part is a vague accusation that they don't have to clarify. Basically once NCR gained value Karel stepped in and started proposing growth and hirings. The other devs were surprised by him suddenly going from working in the background to taking a leadership role, and many of then didn't like that. Many, including Froox, didn't want to grow the company so quickly and saw the Neos project as their personal project and only wanted to hire close friends. Also in the background was a wave of anti-crypto sentiment that made Karel's side of the business unpopular and create discomfort among team members who didn't want to be a part of something that was so unpopular.


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:33:20
content:
  I think in light of that, arguments happened after Karel hired a new person and there was resentment toward that and her. I guess it was handled poorly and the devs thought they should be onboarded or given the funding rather than it be managed by Karel. I'm sure that's where the common accusation that "Karel says being asked to be paid is akin to blackmail" comes from, even though Karel did offer pay, its just by this point the dev team had already internally committed to boot their CEO. It makes sense as if they were actual employees its clear they just wanted that status to axe him, making Karel refuse to onboard anyone, amd eventually someone was fired and Froox disagreed.


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:34:43
edit_date: 2022-04-16 15:38:56
content:
  so it boils doen to Karel, from thr very beginning, was not allowed to be a CEO in any real sense. He we supposed to be the guy in the background. Yes I think agenda is at play, and the agenda is to take control of the project and remove the unpopular (but highly lucrative) crypto element


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:39:40
edit_date: 2022-04-16 12:40:17
content:
  afaik Karel said some uncouth, badly worded things like saying he was being blackmailed (but likely was to some small degree), and its argued he mismanaged NCR but this was in the face of the dev team openly being nonsupportive of it. During this time devs were saying they didn't like NCR and would be okay with removing it/didn't want to develope its functionality, which was tanking its value


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 12:43:10
content:
  I think the biggest thing was Karel attempting to fire someone, though they were not really an official employee. Also seems something sexual happened, someone was involved with a type of VR roleplay that's currently unspecificed but that Karel called "disgusting" but I have no idea what it was. And I think that caused a cultural rift as well. Maybe outlining to them that Karel is not a furry who is cool with certain things the fandom does


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 14:05:26
content:
  For me, the culture clash is a real issue when it comes to public relations, but ultimately immaterial to my position with regard to the current unpleasantness. I saw the existing staff go on strike in all but name, so I view it as a labor dispute (as volunteer labor is still labor). The strangeness here is that a part owner is siding with the labor force to the point that their positions are virtually synonymous. This doesn't typically happen.

  I have no reason to doubt the statements they have given with regard to motivation, and they would explain the strangeness I see in how the workplace dynamics are shaking out. For the most part, people are pretty forthcoming when you ask them 'why' and the team was very amendment that the inclusion of NCR as a cryptocurrency was not the core issue even when people were at their most vitriolic about NCR.  After negotiations apparently broke down (" We lost any faith that our side and concerns over past months were being taken seriously in the negotiations and that the situation would be amicably as quickly as possible") the team stated their intent to work toward 'fair dissolution', citing concerns with 'unilateral actions' in regards to the 'handling of NCR, crypto and business'.

  In short, the partnership stopped being a partnership. I won't speculate further, because for better or worse the breakdown of that partnership is personal and we are but voyeurs. People change, as do visions. Somewhere along the line, two vectors diverged and we are left with this. I would like to think that these visions could reconcile on a community level, but I do not think they will reconcile internally. We are left to contemplate what the landscape will look like for Neos without this partnership in leadership. 

  I personally think that means that we have to put in the work and be more personal about what we see as the project vision. Choosing a champion to fight a legal proxy war isn't going to get us far, working to repair the rift in the community might. Regardless of how this shakes out, we need at least the possibility of cross pollination to keep the platform healthy. We seriously risk specializing into extinction if we don't maintain a diverse community dialog as to the future of the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 14:19:52
content:
  only counter point I can think of is that in concerns of the labor force siding with the part owner, I think it's not outlandish in that he deputized them all, its always been implied to me that they are largely his personal friends, and if most are pleased to sign a statement, I dont think anyone would want to be the sole person refusing and going against the grain. That more says to me their work positions are so divided, where one side solely handles the business and maybe that's just as strange. The moment Karel hired his own aid seems to be around the same time things started falling apart.


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 14:35:00
content:
  Maybe. For what it's worth I've heard nothing but positive things about Andrea from the staff that signed the statements. I won't discount that the timing of her hiring could have added to the tensions. As for the personal friends part. That's true. Most of the Neos regulars know Froox at some level. All of the volunteer staff are players. That complicates things to a degree, but it still pretty much never in the interest of management for work to stop. If Froox feels alienated enough from the business side of things as to not feel the crunch from work stoppage, that's at least noteworthy.


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 15:33:51
content:
  Im guilty of choosing a champion in hopes it will atleast represent my ideals where I feel like I had no voice otherwise in the community


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 15:58:10
edit_date: 2022-04-16 16:02:14
content:
  I'm glad! I just want to keep the lines of communication open. It's been real rough to watch people I was starting to get to know shut down and the community circle wagons on each other. There is no point building all this IMO if we're just going to end up with some exclusionary monoculture, or lose the sense of genuine community to infighting. I've always thought that this project was important as a model of what modern web cultures can be when designed with real respect for its inhabitants, and that's important for everyone.


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 16:03:30
content:
  Honestly I missed @animalchin :P Glad to see him over here. Was going to make a corny "I've seen him, AGAIN!" joke when I joined but it seemed an inopportune moment XD


type: message
date: 2022-04-16 23:42:56
content:
  i was thinking about the possibility of nvr creating lands in neos.. a central city in neos.. things like that, by-products, so that both karel and froox share possible benefits from the growth of the platform


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 02:50:57
content:
  I have no idea if it was true but even if it was I imagine it wasn't something worth gasping over, and prolly more a misunderstanding. like Im not gonna pretend furries don't do explicit things in VR and aren't associated with a myriad of oddball fetishes, but I wouldn't pretend that's a big controversial problem because I dont think it matters (most of the time). I think the tone I was getting was that Karel didnt think those representing Neos should be doing things in public, and for such reasons I think he now says anyone he hires he wants them to use their real name, not a pseudonym


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 05:48:14
edit_date: 2022-04-18 08:09:09
content:
  https://www.geekwire.com/2022/second-life-creator-shares-lessons-learned-from-one-of-the-worlds-first-metaverses/


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 06:48:31
content:
  This is such a strange thing to me. I grew up in a landscape shaped by FM-2030, Captain Crunch and The Mentor. Here we are at the forefront of Cyberspace and we have hangups on people using handles? We're channeling a vision of the melding of online and offline identity, we should accept with that the legitimacy of an online first identity.


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 08:43:50
content:
  Karel could also start looking for support from companies, offering sizeable stake of the NCR Soliraxis has


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 09:23:21
content:
  Yeah I agree. I think its a knee jerk reaction, he feels burned being attacked and attempted to be thrown out from what he considers people who are coming into his company and not even taking it seriously. Like I can only imagine how that feels, to want to get to lead something and then pseudonymous people are blocking you and wanting you exiled.


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 09:27:11
edit_date: 2022-04-17 09:39:08
content:
  How would he withdraw ICO funds? Karel would need a bunch of NCR of his own in order to sell into the company's buy orders. And the source of those tokens could be traced back to him easily.

  I've heard the discord try to make that disingenuous assertion too, it just doesn't make sense though.


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 11:45:23
content:
  If it means anything to you coming from a random faceless account on Telagram...

  I heard about Nex being fired and also sexual misconduct from some team members before any of the public announcements on either side were made. Both contributed to some of my friends leaving neos. On top of that the team has refused to comment ether to refute or confirm these matters even after I aggressively pressed them.

  For these reason I personally believe the allegations to be true.


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 11:58:25
content:
  Well it's not a matter of him being a dick. Likewise, I have only had positive interactions with him. But Karel claimed at one point that him firing Nex was one of the main factors contributing to the final breakdown between him and Frooxius. Nobody on either side denies that Nex was at some point fired by Karel. The exact reason he was fired has only been commented on by Karel. The team refuses to touch it.

  I heard about this stuff from friends who spent way more time in game then me and were in the inner circles of the community. I'm sorry if that is not enough, but would prefer not to dox them then convince a stranger on telegram.


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 12:13:04
content:
  The full context to my understanding is that the team members were starting up lewd activity without checking to see if the room was clear of minors and that everyone else consented. This is directly against the guidelines set up for lewd activity. When made aware of this the team members ignored the people who brought it up. When reported there were no repercussions. It was manly a matter of double standards.

  The only evidence that connects this insadent with Nex's firing is that Karel mentioned sexual misconduct as a reason. It is possible that the incident is not connected to Nex or that there were two separate incidents. I personally lean towards the incidents being connected.


type: message
date: 2022-04-17 12:14:39
edit_date: 2022-04-17 12:16:27
content:
  I don't think that was the main reason he was fired though. Just more shit flung when the shit flinging started.


type: message
date: 2022-04-18 23:50:40
content:
  It should really be less of a focus on what's Going to happen with NCR and more what is going to happen with Neos, since the value is directly tied to the platform.  Personally I think if Neos we're to move away from Patreon itself and use a more direct payment mechanism for the storage and other account rewards it would be beneficial, as it would paint the platform as more of a self-sustaining viable commercial product that generates revenue.  Especially if the fee is less than Patreon.  It would also make the platform more enticing to investors willing to do other forms of funding


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 00:27:23
content:
  Eventually NCR will go up, but it's not clear to me at least if it will ever entice new investors through an ICO after recent events.  In my view NCR did extremely well as Seed funding and moving away from Patreon and establishing proof of revenue would entice Series A 8nvestors if needed.   Growth always requires funding.  Especially if you want to compete with META and grow the platform.  Having traditional investors and establishing a legitimate board is a good thing.   Not needed right this second.  But I'm just saying moving away from Patreon would be beneficial


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 02:02:17
edit_date: 2022-04-19 02:03:41
content:
  I was under the impression the team's (Karel inclusive) public stance was that they were explicitly trying to avoid traditional investment capital and the dilution of control that comes with it. My own personal view on the mater is that it is not so much critical that Neos competes with META but rather that we offer a substantial and real alternative to their vision of the metaverse.

  Ultimately I see Neos well positioned with a steady funding source. Apportioning additional fund raising when specific opportunities present themselves is solidly tactical, but to the service of what ultimate strategy? Respectability is not our end goal, nor is raising captial. "To provide diversity, individuality & creative freedom." to quote the mission statement on the site. What do we gain tword these goals by transitioning our funding source out of patreon?

  Diversification of our funding sources is, I think, a solid tactic. Providing services in a way that has less friction is a good move. Selling storage in a way that is not dependant on patreon is some low hanging fruit IMO. However, I am weary of the idea of trying to court investers. I see it as a quick way to compromise creative freedom. We need to weigh that threat against the opportunity it presents. At the moment, I don't feel we have a clear answer as to what we would do with funds if we were to raise them. We have yet to even partially capitalize the 'seed funding' from the ICO.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 02:22:19
content:
  Diverging from Patreon is a move that 'if you were' to seek series funding would be seen as enticing.  Any move that would entice Series funding investors will ultimately contribute to increasing the coin value just like it would with an IPO. Doesn't matter if you court series funding or not.  As it is an ICO it ultimately serves the same function on the platforms end.   It's not rocket science.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 02:35:34
content:
  I understand your argument is that diverging from patreon would make the project more investable. My question is: what current opportunity or threat makes it worth the risk of negatively impacting the existing funding source? I don't really agree with your positioning of this dilema should Neos persue traditional investment, to be open, it's odd to me to argue that we must choose one or the other, there are plenty of investors that would be willing to invest in a company that also receives funds through patreon. But I wonder what purpose this fund raising would surve right now. Cash reserves are nice, but we have reserves. What work do we have for these dollars to do?


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 02:45:09
content:
  The question was not about pursuing investment but what actions would strengthen the value of the ICO buying or minting for ICO is an investment. Just like if it were an IPO. And as for Patreon why would it be beneficial to willingly give up 8 or 12% instead of %1.3 -3.5 per transaction?


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 03:12:31
content:
  You can't give up what you don't have. Switching costs factor into the analysis more then I feel you are giving credit. This is why I am asking what particular things we are working tword. Our strategic goals need to be based in, to borrow your wording, 'less of a focus on what's going to happen with NCR and more what is going to happen with Neos."

  I think we would agree that ultimently NCR's value is tied with Neos' platform health. What I don't feel has been established is how a Patreon option is detrimental to the platform's health or how the current Patreon option is preventing us from pouncing on a major opportunity for the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 03:48:02
content:
  You don't really need to be working toward anything.  12% is literally throwing money away when it seems the Patreon is literally just functioning as a subscription service storefront.  Like just saying some of the rewards listed are a bit inconsequential and probably just not good ideas in the long run.   That's all I am saying.  And As I understand it most people are just doing Patreon for storage space.   But before any of that hiring QA staff  would probably be the first thing.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 04:09:42
content:
  I bought into NCR last year and I know it dropped to nothing... but still hold some in my wallet... Is this any good? Did Neos go to a different contract? What do I do?


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 07:27:38
edit_date: 2022-04-19 07:28:44
content:
  Unrelated to ncr but why does the new neos website:
  Primarily feature a video that's at most 15fps for the entire intro (very off-putting) from a random youtuber
  Call "FrooxEngine" "Neos Engine"
  Show the Patreon and Ncr buttons in the main place your eyes are drawn to with the download button hidden on the navbar and 2/3 down the whole page
  Say that being a Patreon gets you "priority support" (no it doesn't)
  Say "meta verse as unique as it's users" (should say "a metaverse"?)

  I also would like to suggest moving the "neos credits" button from next to the Patreon button into the ncr section next to the white paper button, and placing the download neos button there instead of very far down the page.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 18:23:32
content:
  On their website in the white paper, it shows a different "Contract address" for NCR credits... Neos calls the old contract the "Genesis contract address"... is this bs. can i sell to get the few hundred dollars i have left after losing $3,000... or what??? any recommendations. If they have a new contract... no one will be buying the old "genesis" bs. Im so pissed off


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 20:58:49
content:
  So... should I hold onto my NCR? Lets say this company turns out to be a $200 million company... will NCR go up? or worthless?


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 21:01:17
edit_date: 2022-04-20 09:43:36
content:
  to know what I should do with my NCR... that's all.. just a question. If you dont want to answer, let someone else. I put down $3,000 in NCR last year and it dumped. Now worth $184.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 21:05:18
content:
  I understand. I know Neos team broke up and Karel mentioned they stopped using NCR, which if true will kill the token. I guess I'll just hold onto and look at next year. Thanks.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 21:41:49
content:
  you bought in a moment of fomo. In my personal opinion, 4 usd could be enough... but while I was selling, you were buying. I would tell you to buy to do DCA. but I can't tell you that because the partners are in litigation and the risk of it going to 0 unfortunately exists. I see it unlikely but this is the crypto world... it can happen.


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 21:44:37
edit_date: 2022-04-19 21:45:03
content:
  Unfortunately, you entered at too high a price where the risk-benefit ratio was poor. I hope it go up and you recover, the future is always uncertain


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 22:17:58
edit_date: 2022-04-20 00:05:52
content:
  Hey Neos fam , i was surprised in a good way with gameplay of your metaverse !! I'm relly like your project , it's the best open world metaverse project i'v even seen


type: message
date: 2022-04-19 23:28:17
content:
  It was one of my first crypto transactions so yah, I know I should have sold for profits.. but everything looked good. But I know that's the way it is. Would be nice to see the project lift off again and hopefully my $184 can go back up to something worth pulling back out.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 09:48:04
content:
  Stop thinking the Neos team gives a shit about any of you. They casually mock NCR holders along with the community in private.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 09:50:03
content:
  they think you buying crypto is a capitalist pig move and you should be living at home or already have a chushy software engineer job like most of them, spending your free time having cybersex in VR as a cartoon animal instead of investing in things.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 09:51:40
content:
  Karel is the only one who actually has sympathy for NCR holders. Sorry but we'll have to wait till he wins this legal case before NCR can improve. I'm sorry but that just seems to be how it is. There's always risk of a worse case scenario and thats kinda what happened here.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 10:22:03
content:
  Casually? Hah. Most of them passonitly despise crypto and crypto investors. They were coming out of the wood works to jump for joy and laugh at everyone when then coin tanked. There are some exceptions.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 10:24:52
edit_date: 2022-04-20 10:25:40
content:
  Yeah I saw their behavior, they were lowkey gloating about the situation they created, and regular member friends of the devs would hint at the dev's intent during heated discussions in the discord


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 10:25:34
content:
  But like, there are no monsters here. Everyone has their reasons, and honestly the terrible thing is they are all going to be entirely understandable.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 10:27:34
content:
  so it wasn't just devs, but their friends too it seems, which is a shitty situation for all the rest of us


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 10:30:29
edit_date: 2022-04-20 10:30:43
content:
  I appreciate your words and trying to understand all the parties involved, but I can't pretend that people had good intents. Can't pretend that Froox's first proposed solution wasn't to give NCR holders the axe.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 10:31:33
content:
  Can't pretend Geenz didn't come in here to concern-gloat ans can't pretend he didn't flatly say "we don't care about NCR"


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 11:05:12
edit_date: 2022-04-21 23:47:26
content:
  That really wasn't his first solution. It still isn't. They are working with a bad situation, but they've never just thrown any of the community under the bus. We have to work with imperfect information and the intersection of both professional and personal grievances. But it is absolutely true that none of the people at the table are shooting for anything less than the best outcome they think they can get. They may not have the same vision as to what that is, but no one is just looking to see it burn.

  It gets really frustrating to not feel heard, it gets really frustrating to feel constantly blamed for things outside your control. Everyone who is emotionally invested in the future of the platform is feeling that right now. You can't really engage in the conversation or have engaged with the conversation without someone blaming the whole thing on you, your friends, or people nebulously grouped with you.

  But everyone involved is still human. More than that, everyone involved is complicatedly tied up in the tangle of financial, material and social factors at the heart of the current situation. There isn't a single person at the table that is somehow isolated from the effects rippling through the community. It is no more true that Froox does not care about what is happening to you than it is that you do not care about his mental and physical well being.

  Of course they care. Of course you care. But you're both going to feel the effects differently. You are both going to look for a way to ride out the stress and uncertainty. Wether that be venting to the void or looking for validation through finding common pain points with your friends.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 11:14:07
content:
  I know you're right, and I know with circumstances aside Froox only wants to be friendly and positive.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 11:14:57
content:
  I support Karel very much. In the future, the Internet will definitely be web3. Now all kinds of big companies are seeking to transform to the blockchain. This is a direction that will definitely eliminate many losers.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 11:16:04
content:
  I just feel ill inside when I see posts in here of people not knowing what to expect, genuinely asking "whats the future of this thing I put money into" with worry, and on the other end I see Karel being treated like absolute shit everytime he opens his mouth and Ive seen that for around 4 months now.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 11:17:29
content:
  I don't feel pain for NCR's value, I have very little of the stuff, but I just don't want any party to get away with what I perceive as a rugpull


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 11:19:39
content:
  I want to believe that the Neos team wishes they could have a solution that sees caring for thr holders as an obligation they can fulfill, but their actions leading up to that early march announcement paint a different picture in my head


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 11:42:04
content:
  I think I get that. It's become absolutely toxic. It's honestly mellowed out a lot compaired to a few months ago, but it still flares up. This situation sucks. It's stopped pretty much everyone in their tracks. People put a lot of hope and faith into a situation that now appears to be falling apart before our eyes and all we can really do is watch and wait to pick up what remains. No one knows what that will look like. But honestly, that's sort of the universal condition. No one is getting what they wanted and worse yet there is no end in sight. We are stuck in a slow motion car crash and it may take years for us to feel safe rebuilding the damn thing with the future tied up in what looks to be a contentious legal battle. 

  I am beyond upset about that. My home is in shambles and all the work my team did is teetering on a cliff. But I know no one still around really did anything with the intent of swindling me, or jeopardizing my ability to make a living doing what I want to do. I am not so uncritical to not think there really were some people just here to pump and dump damn the consiquences, but if there were such people thay have long since left.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 12:02:45
edit_date: 2022-04-20 12:03:51
content:
  I've been active in the Neos Developemnt community for a long time. I helped run Mystic Forge and I've worked witth the Neos Team members on various projects both on my own and in my capacity as a mentor volunteer.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 12:07:27
content:
  I'm also a team member on CytraX, a board member of N1ARA, and a team lead in Group ID Zero. I spend a lot of time on and in Neos and I suppose I'm observant.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 12:30:27
content:
  I can't speak for everyone, we published the Rise public playtest and then the unpleasentness sort of landed on the doorstep. Coffee is still working on Unity projects independently, he was getting frustrated with the limitations of the engine as well as the situation with Neos and wanted a break where he could feel more self-directed. The team is till doing background maintenance on our published worlds, but the Neos releases we had in the pipeline aren't really seeing any work at the moment. The situation could change, and I'd really like to see it change. We had a /lot/ of stuff in the pipeline and I'd be very sad if no one else got to see any of it.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 13:00:07
edit_date: 2022-04-20 13:03:27
content:
  Won't everyone benefit once they put their egos to the side and comprimise on a united development plan for NEOS? The founder egos are ruining their chances to build something unique and revolutionary


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 13:01:41
content:
  Legal battles will ruin the efforts the team, founders and community have made over the last few years as well as ruin the reputation of the founders such that their journey in crypto will be over as no decent investors will go near individuals with such a track record


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 13:02:17
content:
  I believe the only solution is for founders to come to a reasonable agreement and move forward with the NEOS metaverse!!


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 14:16:32
content:
  part of the issue is we have a community at odds with each other and disagreements in this era aren't something we can easily reconcile or just accept as texture on things


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 14:21:23
content:
  The community just needs to support a peaceful resolution imo. That's the only way this will get solved


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 14:22:11
content:
  The community is probably a fraction of what it will be in the future if this is successful and the morale will be boosted once we see some solid progress being made once this is behind us


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 14:30:41
content:
  well half of the community wants nothing less than crypto to bw removed entirely, as crypto is a pseudo-political proxy issue or something now in the minds of many young people


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 14:32:11
content:
  so I don't know if a resolution can exist that doesn't throw the investors to the wolves and simultaneously doesn't upset the discord.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 14:33:41
content:
  I mean, best I can hope for is for people to grow bored of this not-real political issue, maybe when ETH 2 comes out, but even then I think it's an emotional argument and that may not matter to them


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 17:00:56
content:
  The people who don't want crypto can just ignore the crypto, they have no money invested so they have nothing to loose. My opinion is crypto is fundamental to the widespread adoption and future of metaverses in general.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 17:30:36
content:
  It does. I would not mind working with them to make that happen. I have business ideas of my own. Making Neos successful would both enable me the funding to start prototyping, and allow me to do with Neos one of the main things I love about it. Unleash my creativity in the most intuitive ways, so I can test my product's integration with a live Metaverse, and develop for my product on the platform!

  The lack of professional atmosphere though means I may need to seperate myself from the Metaverse Idea and build a custom Enterprise oriented program to provide people a professional atmosphere to test my products with.

  I know that Neos really loves its Community... That's why one thing which could ultimately work to everyone's benefit would be a kind of zoning system (and this is a still-forming idea so lots of room for change and growth) 

  This would work similarly to different distros of Linux. Community Leaders could host Servers with collections of worlds in them. They could customize the theme and layout and make choices about features, like adding new ones via a kind of modding system perhaps, and disabling them as well.

  That way, if you are seeking a professional environment and want to see worlds and features that are aligned with more Enterprise level interests... You could do that.

  And if you wanted a build with no NCR functionality at all, you could do that.

  If you wanted to load it full of NCR features, that's also an option.

  And if you wanted to enjoy the fun and awesome communities that exist in various corners of Neos and just be chill and casual, you can do that too and not be bothered with trying to act professional when you're in your off hours.

  All kinds of possibilities and Froox can get his vision, and Karel can get his one too.

  It would all be under one big Neos umbrella too, and all interconnected so you could use an enterprise build to go and travel roleplaying karaoke bar where people are pretending drinking virtual beers is making them drunker and half the people are drunk behind the headset too, or something crazy like that


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 17:36:25
content:
  There is a business oriented universe currently. Purchasing a professional license gives you access to it. It's also how the educational product works, with institutions hosting their own universes.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 17:41:36
content:
  Oh I see, hosting their own. I'd love to be able to access them. I'd love for the chance to study anything I want in VR and get the practical experience!


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 17:41:43
content:
  Yes. Though the feature is underutilized. I know how it works, but have not set up a multi-universe system because of the unclear feature tiers. Very few users are aware of its existence outside the fulldive community.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 17:47:16
content:
  I would honestly like to see the concept evolve a bit more tword the sort of federation model we see in Mastodon/Activitypub. So instead of switching between multiple universes, instances define which networks they federate with.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 17:57:19
content:
  That would be pretty awesome! Especially if the networks get a high level of control over the way things work and such.

  I often kind of wondered what it would be like to have a totally open borders territory, with regions inside of it using different styles of economies, different styles of communism, capitalism, socialism... But war was illegal. How would they interact with one another? How would they trade and mingle? Maybe they'd stop hating eachother and learn to let others live as they please if they do the same for you. 

  Metaverse is the perfect testing ground for such an Idea!

  (Also ,any clue how I can get in with the professional and education universe scene? Without joining a University or getting a Pro License..

  I definitely cannot afford either of those atm 😊

  Unless the uni comes at a big discount since its much cheaper to operate)


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 18:02:05
content:
  At the moment, it is not clear if we are allowed to modify the client to have it join other universes. It appears to just be a field in the client config file but I have not tested to see if the non-pro release respects that configuration.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 18:35:33
content:
  I think people need to understand that what is happening right now is a coordinated takeover attempt that has been in the works for a long time. Both Frooxius and the volunteers have never respected Karel's position or stake in the company, and they are attempting to blackmail him into stepping down by ceasing any further development work until he's gone and has taken NCR with him. Based on Karel's previous messages in here, that is never happening and it's resulted in a progress deadlock which is now going on over 6 months. Frooxius could very much end this and move forward - as Karel has stated he has every intention of continuing the development of Neos alongside NCR. The ball is in Froox's court.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 18:36:14
content:
  Furry team = Russia 
  NCR holders = Ukraine 
                                 ☠ but fighting - send the reinforcements, guys, and girls. 

  I got banned from discord for this comment, anyone else feels like this?


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 18:40:23
content:
  I am Furry and an NCR holder and I don't explicitly support either side here, I'm simply interested in what is going to achieve the best outcome for the most people. Im not interested in the drama. Im sorry it has happened. I feel bad for both of them as both have been treated unfairly. 

  So how do we fix things


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 18:47:29
content:
  Sounds like we need to plan for the possible judicial dissolution of the corporation. Do we know what the contingencies are in that case?


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 18:51:21
content:
  Best not to pay them in coins but in dollars. I think they would prefer that. It can be partially funded by introducing staking rewards for Content Creators, with only a small amount being required at minimum. This would secure them better types of promotional content. Could impliment a Neos Radio and Neos TV station. As well as posters, billboards and interactable content.

  This would all be done to fit several different world aesthetics and add to the immersion unintrusively. Making the world feel more real and alive.

  The more you stake the higher the number of themes / popularity of themes you can share your content through (seperate from the marketplace, this would be an additional layer and can be implemented in the near future before the marketplace) and again, increasing tiers of ads, level 1 could be a poster, level 10 could be a TV ad, or what have you.

  On top of this, a flat fee, the same for each type of ad and theme but the more themes you operate in, the more this fee is, as you'd be paying it per theme.

  That fee would go to the developers.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 18:56:34
content:
  Please spread the word if you like the Idea, you heard it here first. For Neos at least. The idea itself is not new.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:01:08
content:
  I'm extremely against tying core platform revenue models to advertisement. Personally, I'm not looking for a kinder gentler facebook.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:03:28
content:
  Literally the entire reason I'm here is because it offered a viable alternative to the model of surveillance capitalism, which i view as an existential threat.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:08:09
content:
  Neos is doomed if that is their mentality. If you have a vision, if you have something you want to make happen and keep going and grow it, make it the best it can be, you have no choice but to make a business out of it.

  I have no interest in "money" myself, except I do. Because I need it to fund my passions. Resources are always finite. Even renewable ones. Renewable plants for example. For food, biofuel, organic plastics... Gotta have the right atoms in the soil. Plants dont come from nowhere. They come from carbon in the air + hydrogen from water + minerals in the soil.

  Eventually. Things run out.

  So I need materials. I cant pull resources from thin air and if I had access to a public pool of resources... I'd... Not be very well liked to say the least.

  But by making my passion a business, I can become self reliant and produce for my own needs and give people something in return for granting me that capability with their patronage. Good products. Things that make their lives better. Things that heal the planet we share.

  Gotta make a business out of doing good and following your passion


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:08:57
content:
  If you have not engaged with this topic before I recommend The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power by Shoshana Zuboff. At the moment, I view the pervasive incentive of advertisement as inseparable from the landscape of all encompassing surveillance and behavior shaping.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:10:17
edit_date: 2022-04-21 14:25:52
content:
  Its the only way to self perpetuate and sustain growth. If growth happens, beyond anyone's control, and you cannot sustain it... You're screwed.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:15:53
content:
  Who said anything about surveillance? 

  Im all for privacy

  I only spoke of a way for creators within the community to both decorate our worlds with promotional content that actually fits the theme and adds to the aesthetic... Get themselves noticed... And pay the developers rent, food and bills.

  Any data collection would be exclusively on which themes were the most commonly implimented, which themes have the most Creators promoting, and... That's pretty much it. It would all be 100% anonymous and fully transparent, anyone can go view the data.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:22:20
content:
  This is simply not true. It also goes against the fundamental proposition of the decentralized web. Growth of infrastructure should be match-step with with user growth because it is peer to peer. That's sustainable in and of itself, as projects like Mastodon have shown. I see no strong argument for inviting advertiser hegemony over the fundamental platform. We've already seen how that plays out with Youtube and Demonetization. It's unduly stifling to the goals of democratic discourse.

  I find it of paramount importance that the funding for the platform is obtained directly from its users, just as I view it of paramount importance the core infrastructure be peer to peer and that we eventually release the specification as an open standard. These decisions fundamentally shape how people engage with what we are building, the medium is in fact the message.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:32:22
edit_date: 2022-04-21 06:38:09
content:
  Well, you have somewhat of a point. Just remember though. Servers cost money. Decentralisation helps there. 

  Fundamentally though, that's still not free. You are still needing money to sustain it. To pay rent, food, bills, to run the main servers, 

  I dont have much of an argument.

  Just remember. The main thing this would need is people power. You need mods, admins, technicians, customer support, developers, management, file technicians, etc.

  There is an argument for decentralisation to be had there, it could be made to work...

  Kind of dependant on a way for people to earn money in a decentralised way though. Some people will volunteer. Not many will want to contribute a server for nothing.

  So you need decentralised cashflow. Which means you will probably need crypto. Which means you will need some way to either incentivise people to contribute their money, or have some way of collecting fees. 

  Probably a good reason to keep NCR around and make it more functional somehow if your argument is true.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:32:56
content:
  I have not been convensed the current method is insufficient. We have a cash glut, and a market place would provide a revenue source that should scale with use even if we somehow lose direct donations.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:35:20
content:
  A marketplace which works better when Creators of Marketplace Content have away of getting themselves noticed without resorting to more toxic, social-media based techniques.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:43:02
content:
  It very much is? It's an entire segment of the software industry. You shure you don't want to position your arguemnt in a way that at least makes some specific claim outside of 'that can't work.' Because I can just point to PWYW, full time open source development, and the mere existence of patreon to trivially disprove this claim.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:44:16
content:
  If it were me in charge of such a system I'd try to make it as economically viable as I can while both being fair to the Content Creators, the Customers, and keeping everything related to privacy... Anonymous and transparent. I hate all these companies so invasively harvesting user data with all these targetted ads.

  With my method, the ads are self targetting without needing data. As bad as that might sound, it would be done in a way that creates immersion and feels like you are in a real place. And if you go somewhere with a particular theme...You are probably going to enjoy content of that same theme.

  Doesn't need to be more advanced than that. It's a simple fact of life. People seek out what they are interested in. Just need to allow creators to make a name for themselves by being there with their content when you seek out those same styles and themes.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:44:24
edit_date: 2022-04-20 19:46:13
content:
  This is an interesting problem, yes. Discoverability is a hard thing to solve without recreating a black box or a gameable system.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:51:01
content:
  That's a conversation I can engage with, sure. Compensation models are on the table, I just don't concede advertisement based revenue as 'the alternative' to working essentually uncompensated.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:52:47
content:
  I'm much more interested in methods that grow internal (to the usebase) compensation, so the community remains resilient to hegemony.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 19:56:29
content:
  I think we'd essentually be giving up a lot of the ability to shape our experience. The power relationship of funding can't be erased, unfortunately. Distributing the source of funding as atomically and organically as we can at least minimizes that influence.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 20:02:33
content:
  On the infrastructure side I really do like ipfs and similar solutions. I don't think we have as robust of a solution for marketplace discoverability yet. Though I do like steam's curration lists as a general model. I think that could be refined.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 20:03:20
content:
  Either way I personally take a "go as big as you can go" mentality but that's primarily because I have my eyes on space and rockets are expensive :V 

  Just getting by is... Kind of depressing.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 20:06:57
content:
  It follows from the propaganda model of communication. As soon as advertisers can function as gatekeepers (e.g. demonetization) we lose our resilience to it.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 20:14:41
content:
  I participated in the w3c ratification of ActivityPub. I have a specific agenda but it would be hard to argue I'm uninformed :) My definition of success for a project is providing a viable alternative to survailance capitalism in a way that enables the continued development and maintenance of the core service. Relative market position is immaterial to my analysis, as it is not a metric of sustainability.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 20:35:14
content:
  Do use a time honored hacker tradition: Mu. (Neither is a preferable outcome in the specific case we are discussing, as software development methods are not interchangeable for specific goals)


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 20:37:14
content:
  ? How so. Your rehtoric assumes the goal is the existance of a thing rather than the specific characteristics of the thing. Both outcomes would specificly fail the requirements.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 20:55:45
edit_date: 2022-04-20 20:56:15
content:
  The reality of these problems is that all human endeavor produces failure in greater abundance than success. The choice is arbitrary unless you are interested in playing the odds, in which case you need to define your metrics for success and optimize accordingly.

  My head is trying to solve what I see as existential threats while still being able to be a computer nerd :3 I aknowlege the specific reality that my industry is contributing to the increasing socioal, economic, and enviromental stratification and I am principly interested in exploring alternitives that address those problems head on while still letting me do the beep boops.

  My metrics for project success are always going to be informed by that.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 21:06:05
content:
  What if your end goal is ambition. What if you have more than one Idea, what if some Ideas would cost over a million dollars to produce through R&D and requires extensive physical hardware. What if you had to buy a specialised manufacturing machine for $4,000,000? What if your end goals would cost billions like building a space station on a moon to assist scientific, industrial, commercial and civilian operations in space by refuelling them on a solid body with tolerable levels of low gravity, but a very low escape velocity, allowing them to not have to use rocket stages and simply launch at a low fuel cost?

  Where does that money come from?

  Sometimes its enough to just make one thing and let it be a thing for a while. Sometimes you gotta go big or go home because THAT is what drives us forwards as a species

  Either you win approval from a centralised authority and get all that you need, sometimes you gotta appeal to the people to vote for your ambitions with their purchasing power.


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 21:09:24
content:
  Side note @IraIrick 

  That is an interesting chat you have in common with me, I can see why you are so much of a thinker


type: message
date: 2022-04-20 21:15:51
content:
  That is definitely one outcome. The list of solutions to a deadlock in a 50/50 founder situation is fairly short and generally includes dissolution or a buyout from the other party. It's a shame that there wasn't a 3rd party involved in the equity of Solirax with voting rights, because this would have all been solved fairly quickly.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 00:00:12
edit_date: 2022-04-21 00:26:56
content:
  I'm of mixed opinions on this. In the fields I'm interested in there is a bit of a mythology about the scale of the necessary investment for things. Often people point to endeavors like ENIAC/UNIVAC and ARPAnet to make the argument that the field required deep pockets to bootstrap it. 

  I think basic research is a fundamental social good. However, I am also aware that basic research is almost never industrially funded. The single really notable exception in the history of information technology was Bell Labs in the heyday of Ma Bell's monopoly. Industrial research is mostly iterative. It is exactly the sort of work that could be done without the same scale of funding by scale of application. This is in fact the gamble we made in the US electronics industry leading up to and during the space race with the Amateur Radio Service. We gave up a massive chunk bandwidth for that, but it ultimately ended up giving us the /personal/ computer.

  Chip lithography is a touch nut to crack in the modern era. The modern integrated circuit is one of those things that puts a $4,000,0000 machine to shame. The equipment required to produce a competitive IC would be priced at $4,000,000,000 conservatively. Or, you could do it in your garage for ~$10k, making major steps tword democratizing the process and allowing meaningful wide scale experimentation in the space. You can probably guess what I'm more interested in :) I am not particularly exceptional, or lucky. Most people are not particularly exceptional, or lucky. I would wager we are in fact, serially stupid. But that's fine, because we don't need exceptional lucky heros when we can hide behind the mound of dead bards. :3

  If your end goal requires billions of dollars in funding, then I think you should try to do it in your garage for $10k, fail, and document the whole thing online. Because then you get to do it. We don't get to have billions of dollars. Modern VR took off because some guy online managed to cobble together something cheap that utterly failed to provide anything like a good experience and then another dork who was fresh off of trying to debug aerospace positional sensors for his attempt at a amateur rocket that utterly failed to not blow up on launch combined their respective failures into the biggest failure of all: A cost effective HMD prototype without 300ms of sensor latency. Serial failures leading to parallel success.

  Moonshots are cool and utterly mythic. But I can actually contribute to the process of failing in parallel. It seems historically in my interest to try and structure things so we get the largest number of people working on the problems that I am the most passionate about. For the problems that are so big they seem to require something like state funding or a multinational r&d budget.... I dunno, try it anyway and then maybe form a DAO if you give up? :P

  IMO We /should/ fund project like this at a social level. And in Neos' case that is what happened, both with the Grants and the crowd funding. It also happened with the literal moonshots, which were and are a subject of facination for me to this day. It was all really cool nerd stuff with the most morally icky realpolitik at its motivational core. We are living through the reopening of those sort of cold war dynamics, and our 4 billion dollar vanity projects are now posturing at earth shattering cyberwarfare techniques rather than just the pedestrian nuclear ICBM :P


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 00:00:12
content:
  It's a serious question sometimes. I don't honestly think the strange nature of cyberwar compaires to the flirting with annihilation that the post nuclear aerospace industry represents, but I keep in mind the banality of evil and the unique power of general purpose machines to embody bad processes. $4,000,000,000 is nothing for a war machine, general purpose or otherwise. It's also notthing for nation-state level survailance. Assume every node is compromised. Develop trust-less methods of verification and hedge against a 51% attack on the consensus network. Take the idea to market, compromise to get the funding on board, or, develop out the market through the behavior shaping technologies of modern targeted advertisement.... This is the game of thrones, after all and there is no middle ground.

  Which is utterly hyperbolic :3 But the scale of these things is real, and the specific abuses are enabled by that unreal stratification of access. The answer is likely complicated and ever shifting. Research needs a diversity of approaches to get those sudden leaps. So we build what we can when we can with what we have for the deeply held reasons we have. We keep working that way until something happens that is so extreme it changes the whole landscape of the industry.

  My bet is, after the sudden technological landslide, we'll find the emergency response teams will be mostly supported by amateur rocketeers and HAM radio operators :3


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 07:08:32
content:
  I have a plan but it is going to require a huge amount of initial investment but the payoff will be measured in 100s of billions, potentially more than 10 measures

  And what the fuck am I supposed to do with that kind of money? XD 
  Buy nice things?
  No.
  I will MAKE my nice things. Cheaply!
  No... There is really nothing just one guy like me can do with that kind of money... EXCEPT pour 99% of it ALL into scientific and technological progress

  It's kind of a moral obligation to me. I see techbros in sillicon money pouring billions of dollars and 1000s of hours into the STUPIDEST projects, they cant see that there is an alternative path to achieve those same things without risking the entire of society as we know it

  So someone has to do what they want to do but better or we are all fucked.

  Why not align my passion for creation with my moral obligations?

  Only way Im getting to that point is to try to make as much money as possible as ethically as possible so I can build bigger and better things, get a company valued worth billions then sell most of it and rake in the dividends and let someone else build upon the foundations I built, rinse, and repeat even bigger.

  As for million dollar machines... Im familiar with CNC machinery that is worth millions, and hard to replicate. Only thing I can do is build it cheaper, which again, is moral obligation. I believe in fair and equal opportunity for all which means no stupid barriers to entry and I can just throw the corporate sausages to the hounds at auctions for my businesses so potential threats know that they can still get ahead and letting me grow prefab businesses is good for them.

  As for serially stupid, we are human. 

  As for failure? Thats what money is for. You need to do what you can do and not fail at to make sure you are still gaining money even when your fuckups cost millions. You can only fail so many times before you succeed!

  And what do investors care? My mother company will be private and profitable to keep me green. My startups wont be exposed to investors until after I failed so many times at what others don't have the balls to even try due to risk factor that I end up succeeding, then doing it better each time until sale nets me massive gains. I tried and failed so they dont have to. Then I increase my threshold for how much I can safely fail because of the cash flow.

  Its those failures that will fail their way to success that truly drive humanity forwards.

  As for where to start I'd rather start at what will cost $20k and succeed at doing it for $2k

  And you're right. Working together makes for larger successes! :3 

  And, also, Im not settling for anything less than a colony on a gas giant's moon.

  Cant get that far into space without a few moonshots! :3


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 07:29:55
content:
  Also. Life is short.

  1. Genetic engineering and synthetic organic technology can fix that

  2. If you dont let your ambitions run wild and think sstrategically to figure out how to make the unlikely possible, and go for it, you might die having never had the chance to make your dreams a reality.

  I will die in space but I will make damn sure I leave a bright future for those who come after me and if they waste it by the Gods I will haunt them until they live up to the true potential we have as conscious beings capable of thinking about things greater than ourselves that we can become a part of.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 07:31:57
content:
  No one person will ever be great alone but if we aim for greatness we can become a part of the greatness we all share. We made it up until now and we can make it greater still


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 11:30:54
content:
  I'm still reading the posts above and they're great. On the topic of if Neos itself needs special funding or "needs" its crypto integration, I think it's a more compelling argument that the users need or benefit from it more than the devs themselves. Atleast those're my feelings.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 11:34:43
content:
  I've been asked "when's the last time you've needed to actually use crypto" and mu answer has always been "all the time really". I've used it to send money to friends where paypal won't allow me, my gf uses it to buy hormones, and I use it to buy rare game steam keys from Russian sites selling them where my CC isnt accepted


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 11:39:45
edit_date: 2022-04-21 11:41:35
content:
  If you really believe in a real metaverse someday, can't you imagine ingame analogues to situations like these? I would like to be able to borderlessly tip players ingame with NCR for being nice, maybe I'd want to buy something from another player that isn't allowes on an officiap Neos store for whatever reason, like a limited run avatar item? And I think Neos should open and connect with external VR game platforms someday, and that's something I think is way easier when players can exchange a token with actual value with each other and not government currencies or use a payment processor. The idea to me is that someone can be considered a citizen of the net and accept a currency native to the net, and not be geoblocked like with what we see threatening to happen in the world now


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 11:42:48
content:
  when I also ask why, if someone doesn't like crypto, they can't just ignore it, I've yet to get a compelling answer aside from "the people involved are scammers" and "the concensus algorithms don't work into my political (usually socialist) feelingd when extrapolated out far enough"


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 11:45:59
content:
  the latter argument, I don't see why someone feeling that way couldn't still ignore crypto. They can define their interaction in Neos themself. If an item os tied to an NFT in Neos, whats stopping them from still copybotting the item and using it? The person with the NFT has the satisfaction of feeling their hat is official, while the other party gets to use the hat however they want with their community.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 11:48:04
content:
  I just don't see how both members of the community couldn't be happy aside from one side has brainworms that prevents them from accepting a group of people find decentealized digital ownership compelling


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:22:02
content:
  Have you used the non-steam version? You can already send NCR to anyone in the game with no fees but I'd wait until Karel gets himself his own fork


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:23:45
content:
  yeah, I do, and its a feature I really like. Also further illustrates how easily one can ignore crypto if they want


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:24:37
content:
  and in that consideration the people on the discord don't just want to avoid crypto, they want YOU to not have it. So who is right in that kind of agreement?


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:24:53
content:
  I know right? We are the ones who have something to lose if they dont like crypto. They have nothing to lose by us minding our own business. Crypto saved my ass a few times I couldnt pay my rent because the financial system here is garbage, but crypto got me instant cash at an ATM when money wasnt even arriving into my normal bank account.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:31:00
content:
  Just remember: the devs could easily propose a solution where they take care of the token holders and manage NCR themselves, but they are willfully choosing not to and throwing them to the wolves.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:31:13
content:
  People hating crypto in general I mean.

  The NFT spammers may have influenced that. Unsustainable tokens with bad mining protocols too. But most of all... The fact that miners hogged all the GPUs and drove the price up of something many of us NEED which is NOT a speculative asset. (Though speculation had very little to do with it and I don't think good cryptocurrency is a speculative asset, though you can speculate with it as you can with everything. People speculate over coffee.)


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:32:21
content:
  so yeah I think the greater debate is at play and has created this situation where disolution of their partnership with Karel comes with the sacrifice of many people's financial wellbeing.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:34:30
content:
  The team dont care. A fork may be the best option if Karel can

  A. Not resolve this through discussion with eachother with a team of mediators (not lawyers)


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:38:17
content:
  I dont remember that bit...

  Anyway as I said. I'm happy to try to resolve this through open discussion


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:38:27
content:
  Terms of Service and things like this dont give you legal precedent to do whatever the heck you want. They have never been bulletproof. They don't safeguard you from running a scam.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:39:22
content:
  I don't see how thr Howey test matters when they sold something for a purpose for over 4 years then wish to drop support of it


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:41:18
content:
  I think youre all optimistically thinking that if you say a few sentences on your website, you can run a scam.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:43:11
content:
  Then to take all those funds and then not deliver on an obligation means legal action is in order. And if they cannot pay the investors back, then guess what? bankruptcy. Then we become the owners of Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:44:41
content:
  So I absolutely, 100% think this should go in front of a judge, and I also expect Neos would lose a case like that.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:46:29
content:
  a terms of service you agree to does not make you immune to legal recourse. Definitely look this up.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:47:02
content:
  Like people here being so silly, assuming I can run a scam but if I put a few sentences on my website I'm free from legal recourse


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:48:32
content:
  you can try to wiggle about and word salad it any way you want, but they were selling a product and funding their business on it.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:49:33
content:
  Look up Bitconnect. They ran a similar scam. They are under investigation and the case against them is taken very seriously. Hell, even social media influencers are being held liable.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:52:00
content:
  So there was nonexpectation for NCR to have monetary value in a store for the game? No expectation for that huh?


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:56:04
content:
  true, though its a vague distinction what that means and he could argue by upholding the value of his token, he's managing funding the company and its development


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:56:39
content:
  THE BEST SOLUTION HERE IS TO FORK

  We want NCR to use as was promised. In the marketplace. Jobs in Neos. A Metaverse economy. We were told what it was and what it will be. If that gets abandoned, they will lose that lawsuit.

  People have been sued for less. Accepting money. Promising people a game. Game doesnt happen so sued.

  If I made you sign a document saying that I would be immune from legal action for snorting a mountain of cocaine in your house...

  Am I immune from you calling the cops on me and going to jail? No I am not.

  Cocaine is illegal. So is fraud.

  Neos needs to at least make a minimum amount of effort at implementing the roadmap that was outlined for NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 13:58:13
content:
  Keep in mind the SEC considers crypto to be a security therefore it is an investment therefore, Neos need to make an effort to deliver what they offered to tokenholders.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:01:22
content:
  Shareholders can sue over being mislead with false expectations. SEC considers crypto a security. We were given a roadmap so the roadmap is the minimum that needs to legally be followed.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:04:23
content:
  But you cannot just abandon it.

  Imagine if a company told its shareholders "screw you, do with your shares what you want, they are not part of the company anymore! Sure you lost value but you still have them! Oh you want our company to associate with your shares? Get lost!"


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:05:22
content:
  exactly. People have been sued for much more slight missteps. Don't anyone here let them get you to believe they know a damn about what a judge would think about an obvious scam.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:05:53
content:
  So I wont go to jail of I snort cocaine in your house because you signed a document where I said I could?


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:08:19
content:
  in an announcement on Discord. He said he was proposing he and his devs disassociate with it and let ot be Karel's problem.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:10:44
content:
  He's purposefully leaving out the part where he says his company would no longer deal with it.

  These guys are often disingenuous and play with words and mental gymnastics, and usually emerge when the narrative here diverges too far from the one established on discord.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:11:25
content:
  Its a common tactic to get your opponent to need to rehash old arguments for you to distract from new conversations.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:13:09
content:
  3rd party would imply as much

  Rest assured though that I'd love to join a class action where all the developers get to keep their roles but the balance of power is shifted to NCR holders securing a portion of ownership, and I'd love to do my best to make Neos succeed! I was using Neos before I ever even heard of NCR so I actually do care about the platform but if leadership all act the way they do... Perhaps they need some better management, of which Im sure you will find many NCR holders have experience in.

  Im NOT suggesting a DAO... That's just compensation that doesn't ruin the project financially 😊


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:14:22
content:
  "We will no longer provide first party support ourselves and at the same time we will not be further involved with any NCR related decisions and actions."


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:15:05
content:
  So, you know who the courts would favour. The guy putting in the hard manual labour for what was promised.

  Im not saying I condone his actions. Im just saying. He is looking good to the courts.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:17:04
content:
  they could literallu snapshot NCR and issue a replacement to all holders and then manage it themselves without Karel entirely. Its another common lie that "karel controls the keys so we cant do anything"


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:17:16
content:
  He is looking pretty bad compared to NCR holders, for sure, but less bad than the rest of the the team.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:20:08
content:
  the way I see it, Froox's side should have to weather two lawsuits, one from his cofounder and pending that, another from thr defrauded NCR holders.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:21:17
content:
  snapshot the distribution of NCR, and then redisttibute the same amount to those holders a new currency eith whatever feature they wanted.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:23:00
content:
  It used to be argued that " we need to throw the holders under the bus in the future because Karel controls the keys to NCR" but either they are very ignorant of all things blockchain (despite often claiming they are well versed) or they are misleading their communtity and hoping no one would notice so they can drop responsibility.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:26:02
content:
  In his tweet he stated that they would have nothing to do with it. They said they wanted to boot karel and implied he'd be taking NCR with him when he left, and directly said it would become a third party thing not associated with Neos.

  Aka abandonment


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:26:10
content:
  yeah, and ETH did it too (ETH classic) and I think a fork will be neccessary when ETH transotions to PoS consensus with eth2


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:29:56
edit_date: 2022-04-21 14:30:33
content:
  Ill not try to argue semantics with you, I dont wanna play that game where a very clear abandone development proposal is "not really" or whatever


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:32:19
content:
  they would make part of their community happy with an anti-crypto W, they would get to drop obligation to have to develop those related features


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:32:23
content:
  Karel did a lot of nasty stuff to them, definitely plenty of motive to stomp all over his baby he was so proud of. He even called it that.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:33:34
content:
  If they've already internally decided to abandon NCR, they have no reason to not disparage and harm it financially too, specially when it only hurts Karel at that point.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:35:26
content:
  Afaik they have all refused tp send invoices for their work, as ot would damage their chance at outing their CEO


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:38:08
edit_date: 2022-04-21 14:38:58
content:
  they are a startup and not a profitable one until very recently when NCR exploded? They were all volunteers. The moment the company warchest grew to support salaries, the volunteers decided they wanted Karel out


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:47:22
content:
  For the reference, there is not an awful lot of profit in adding liquidity to the pool. But what it does do is make sure a token can handle growth and it indicates forward thinking...

  But its enough to piss off people who wanted their salary and have no issue of abandoning a security asset under their platform who said it was never theirs to begin with. I know a number of them held NCR. Has anyone checked etherscan? Do we know the team's wallets? Due to legal action between them and karel they should be forced to disclose their wallet addresses.

  If they sold before the announcement, that opens uo suspicion of insider trading given the SEC considers it a security.

  Was the announcement close to the time liquidity was added?


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:53:03
content:
  there's some misconceptions about the funds btw, where the minting address was being given ETH and ETH's value was rising


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:54:19
content:
  I dont know I just know froox complained about karel adding liquidity instead of paying them in one of his tweets


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 14:54:40
content:
  while there's some truth to that, no one mentions that most of the value loss culprit was ETH having peaked around november.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 15:09:23
content:
  Reminder that lack of liquidity means you cant trade with it, transfer it, buy it or sell it. Not keeping liquidity growth increasing with trading volume growth would be tremendously irresponsible.

  You ever heard of a rug pull scam? The developers sell off their holdings and pull liquidity meaning everyone is stuck with their tokens and they cant be sold or moved or traded, they just sit there impossible to use.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 15:22:01
edit_date: 2022-04-21 19:22:13
content:
  But I guess the team care more about getting paid than doing the complete opposite of a rug pull. 

  We actually have a good chance of class actioning ourselves a small piece of overship over the company.

  With karel and frooxius too busy butting heads to lead the company forwards, it could be very good for the future of Neos if some of us take up enough of a say to resist stagnation due to internal conflict and puts us in a position to represent the community and listen to their voices and actually work in favour of their interests! Because some of us are PART of those communities


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 15:24:35
content:
  We can make sure that things tip towards the one who is the most right and the least wrong when these things happen and we can take the best of both parties in line with our own community concensus


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 15:26:47
edit_date: 2022-04-21 15:28:49
content:
  Who actually wants what is best for the userbase in this situation? Probably both of them each in their own way. Who is really in the wrong here? Also probably both of them.

  The question is what achieves the best results? The best overall outcome? For everyone?


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 19:26:48
content:
  I will not pretend the tokenomics were handled well as there are many factors I don't fully understand

   but also most people judging Karel's actions seem to do so in hindsight, as at the time no one knew what top ETH would put in (as in it could have been very good for the company to not sell right away) but also Karel did not know Froox would make so many damaging annoincements that cratered the value of NCR in such a surprisingly hostile and irresposible manner.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 19:28:37
edit_date: 2022-04-21 20:45:40
content:
  we can call it propping up a bubble, but no, because it became a bubble following the malicious actions of devs and a toxic community that sought to create this outcome out of spite, not natural market profit taking.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 19:30:36
content:
  Don't let them gaslight you into believing this is just "how crypto is" or proof of whatever narrative they want to push.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 19:48:07
content:
  As far as the crypto stuff goes, I'm on Karel's side. Karel could have handled his social interactions a bit better though and so could some of the devs, with 2 devs in particular still learning how to better handle social interactions with users of the platform but in a minority of isolated cases was it sub-par.

  In future of course Neos is likely to take on staff who specialise in customer service and public relations, as they grow economically, we should see more and more of a professional standard coming from the team's interaction with eachother and the public

  Gotta make understanding allowances and give them room to grow.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 21:12:54
edit_date: 2022-04-21 21:15:06
content:
  NCR's ICO has been a foundational part of the planned Neos revenue model for years and many of the volunteers working on it joined after this was clearly established via the whitepaper. Many of these volunteers also heavily profited from NCR during the boom knowing that they would intentionally tank the value after formulating a hate campaign against Karel. 

  They were never anti-NCR, they were anti-Karel because the furry fandom has a long history of edging out people who aren't a part of their cult and they refused to acknowledge his position as CEO after he fired Nexulan, hired Andrea, and drafted the 2022 roadmap. They then began disseminating tabloid-level shock pieces like "Karel locked Froox in the house and forced him to code" in order to emotionally manipulate people into buying into their victimization and paint Karel like a bad person to the investors and userbase. This take-over situation has been in the works for a long time and I personally refuse to buy into it - which is why I have and will continue to support Karel.


type: message
date: 2022-04-21 21:38:20
content:
  If you have evidence I encourage you to collect it. If there is no evidence, it does no good to spread that information, in fact it does harm to the NCR cause as it becomes ammo for more attacks.

  And personally without evidence I can neither believe nor disbelieve


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 01:21:05
content:
  The Howey Test is for determining whether a particular investment is a "security" under US law. It's not relevant here. You can still sue for fraud and misrepresentation, which are the relevant claims in this instance.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 01:33:48
edit_date: 2022-04-22 01:42:32
content:
  Also lol at the argument that "Froox/devs never did anything on NCR so can't be liable." That's the entire point! They DIDNT do anything on NCR despite explicit representations by the company (which is Karel AND Froox) of how NCR utility/in-game economy would be developed. And when Karel finally pushed for it, they try to kick out NCR as a third party token, breaking those promises. Clear case of fraud/misrepresentation. Securities laws have nothing to do with it. 

  Tired of the ignorant legal takes from the discord.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 02:14:45
edit_date: 2022-04-22 03:50:50
content:
  The people with gold names in Discord are volunteers without contracts and if an agreement is never reached, Karel is entirely within his rights to hire contracted developers to replace them. I would argue that he's actually obligated to for the preservation of the company, maintaining value for the token holders, and forward momentum of Neos - even if it means having to re-write certain code modules from scratch. This deadlock cannot last ad infinitum. Karel is the person with control of the Ethereum wallets and has the means to move Neos forward with or without the existing volunteers. They've had more than enough opportunity to reach an amicable solution since ceasing development in early November, but I feel that their window will be expiring in the near future.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 12:52:15
content:
  VR chat is not a competitor. Completely different concept.

  VRchat is a social platform

  Neos is a metaverse engine, games like VRchat are able to be produced in it, and a fully functioning social platform already exists on it, its basically a social metaverse engine. Produce whatever you want within it and let it loose on the metaverse as its integrated by default


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 12:55:57
content:
  VRchat provides a better and more stream lined social user experience.  People are initially looking for social interactions and experiences.  And some eventually get drawn into creation.


    90% of people using metaverses are not going to be creators or developers they will be consumers.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 12:55:59
content:
  You can create for VRchat but you do that via unity, which is a game engine. Neos is its own engine. 

  VRchat competes for users, but with Neos, we will see things much better than what VRchat can offer. Since as more features are added to Neos the more you can do with the engine. Make a game, a simulator, a social space, a workplace, a university, offer goods and services.

  If anything it is unity that is the competitor


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 12:59:35
content:
  So you can get your ideas shipped directly to consumers / consumers get stuff shipped directly to them

  It will take the marketplace for it to truly unleash that aspect though.

  And you are right, Neos has room for improvement in user-friendliness.

  Since you can develop in Neos, I've been putting together some plans to take user-friendliness into my own hands so if you have any suggestions please send them my way


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:01:24
content:
  As I said, it will take the marketplace for it to really take off. Rocket fuel for Creator's Ambitions right there. And if you get deep into the community you would not believe some of the content that's already out there circulating semi-privately


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:05:04
content:
  Telling people to get onto metaverse is hard, having better platform for people interested in metaverse easier


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:05:04
content:
  Logix and components are super fun to work with once you get over the learning curve. I much prefer it to other systems, though it is missing some things and I've had to get janky to get around this.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:05:17
content:
  This is such a bad take.  Custom UI is possible but that doesn't fix the fact that bad UI/UX drives away users.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:06:11
content:
  The learning curve is the issue.  You shouldn't have to learn how to develop and code in Neos just to have a basic UI/UX is should be good from the get go


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:08:58
content:
  Which could be a user or a dev. Its just harder to get the content to users early if its not natively integrated.

  This is where Id love to see a simple menu in the default UI for easily tailoring the UI by browsing through top rated user content that adds UI and controls / interaction.

  So if you dont like the UI or you want to improve your user experience interacting with the platform, 2 click fix.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:09:49
content:
  The reason VRchat is successful is because the learning curve it has is extremely minimal for using the actual product.  Neos has an issue where is designed by devs for devs and not for users.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:12:37
content:
  Could be part of the marketplace Karel though definitely needs to show the top 3 free User created UI and interfacing solutions right at the top

  Of course improving the UI and usability for new users to begin with is what gets more people making all kinds of different options based on a wide variety of User preferences


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:14:38
content:
  Not denying that, I'm just saying it can improve if Neos makes it easy to access that content from the start as well as making it easier to create your own set up and put it out there


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:15:02
content:
  You're all jumping ahead to a market place, but the reality is you need the basic product to be viable first.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:16:09
content:
  the project grows day by day... we all know that the problem is that Froox accepts a cryptocurrency called NCR in which the community invested to enjoy the platform and have a store of value tied to the project... the support was the Froox project and Karel... now if Froox is a mercenary and wants to keep all the income from the platform for himself....


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:17:24
content:
  Im already making plans. The tricky part, as a Creator, is getting my own solutions seen by new users as quickly as possible so they dont have to struggle or actively search for it first


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:20:36
content:
  You're not grasping the core concept.  The problem is that you have to create your own solutions.  When the issue is that the product is not user friendly out of the box.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:24:22
content:
  So you're making a solution users have to search for or are you saying you are volunteering to design and simplify the base UX/UI for Neos?


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:25:41
content:
  This is exactly what I have been saying.  I talk to a lot of people about Neos and you would be surprised how many people have tried it and quit after a couple days because "the UI is dog shit".


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:27:30
content:
  I want to try to figure out how to make it so that it gets seen quickly and they dont have to search for it.

  One of many Ideas I'd love to simply have implemented natively.

  Of course giving easy access to the solutions of others with my own would mean that there is something for everyone's preferences, which they nay have to technically search for if they are looking for something different to mine, but they would not have to hunt. It could be all in one place just 2 clicks away


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:29:38
content:
  If my own UI were the default UI, you would see in your main menu a nice big button that shows people they have easy access to whatever meets their preferences. That takes the difficulty out of it.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:32:30
content:
  Your first 2 minutes in Neos it would be presented right there for you

  I'd of course like to make it so that my UI was so easy to use people wont need anything else but I accept everyone is different and what is easy for one person may be hard for another and vice versa

  Everyone has different preference and customisability is key, hence putting it all within easy reach


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:35:09
content:
  I don't think you can add the changes I am referring to they need to be made at the development level  Like having a separate tab exclusively for avatars and instead of saving it to your inventory.   Or using basic universal icons that are intuitive instead of green plus signs and lightning bolts.  And simplifying the settings menu to have multiple tabs to make it easier to use.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:36:08
content:
  Neos is a metaverse engine so I'd really love to embrace the concept of the metaverse, and give people the ability to have whatever kind of experience they want. Make everything fluid and flexible. Adaptable but resilient from the start.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:38:38
content:
  Id try to make mine as close to that as possible but I do personally love advanced features, but that wouldn't be the default. But right there for those who want it.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:42:24
content:
  Cool so you're going to add a publish world button to the sessions tab or is it going to still be the asinine process of spawning an item then a world orb and placing to orb on a pedestal and pressing submit?


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:46:20
content:
  Because it sounds like your talking about simplifying the facade of the UI.  I'm talking about simplify the UX which the UI is a part of.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:46:50
content:
  Ive been fiddling around with world logix, it should theoretically be possible, though without native support I'd need to do something kinda janky but for the user, that would all be in the background, except for the part where you're teleported to a different world and back to publish it, but I do hope for the native support needed to not have to do janky stuff like that as fun as it is to work around the limitations of a system at times.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:48:27
content:
  I mean UI and UX, just janky solutions to the latter until I can either get native support or find someone who can write a plugin and get it published to do that stuff more seamlessly


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:48:40
content:
  This is the part you're not grasping.  We are talking about changing the native UI. We are talking about things that need to be addressed on the developer side.  Not things a user can duct tape over


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:50:01
content:
  Sad but true but I can at least do what I can and hooe it triggers something good to happen developer side

  Or get myself hired 😊


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:51:03
content:
  I think the better course of action would be to hire a professional UI\UX developer with a few years of experience rather than to head hunt in the community.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 13:54:44
content:
  I mean they would be able to do more than me in the development side of things. But they would do well to also hire people with vision, creativity and ambition to drive the engine of progress. From personal experience, it can be challenging to churn out Ideas when you are having to focus on developing them alone one by one. That's where teamwork comes in! :D


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:03:35
content:
  In my original field, it often is how things work. One person works on design and lays out CAD schematics and another follows those schematics and produces them. And having someone who is experienced more than one field and at least well honed in others works wonders for directing a project.

  Also Neos users can certainly see the issues new users run into. No one can see all issues alone so that is where it is important to be able to both step into the perspectives of others and also listen to the users when they highlight issues not previously observed, and then examine that from the user's perspective and again from their own in order to devise solutions that meet the needs of the users and give them a product they are happy with


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:07:55
content:
  The problem is Neos users don't understand the issues.  Because Neos users don't hear from users who quite after a few hours and never look back.  They don't go to the discord, and  they don't look up YouTube tutorials. They just leave They just go "this is janky unintuitive dogshit" and go to VRchat, alt-space or the other dozen social VR apps.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:09:29
content:
  I spend a lot of my time litterally just being the first point of contact for new users. I'm pretty well aware of what portions of the UI are poorly designed :P


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:12:21
content:
  They don't like being confronted with someone while they are initially trying  figuring something out or they found someone extremely off-putting who jumped in.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:13:48
content:
  The inventory is literally just terrible, the settings are a visually confusing mess, contacts has virtually no UI hinting, which is a continuous theme across the board. The world browser is alright, but could use more discoverability features. At the moment, honestly, the world browser is the only bit of the curernt UI I'd consider worth keeping and itterating on XD


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:14:38
content:
  The proper UI/UX for a new user should be able to get them acquainted with basical movement and navigation.  Get them into a selection of basic starter avatars and and. A basic understanding of a simple to understand and easy to use menu


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:19:10
content:
  Hmm. That's much less a UI and UX issue but hey I'll give it some thought. There could be a system for that. I'd almost suggest a basic AI assistant but dont want a repeat of paperclip guy, lmao.

  Also mentors can be helpful and I'd not want to replace them but perhaps an intermediary solution can be devised that isnt intrusive and annoying but makes sure an answer to your questions is always in easy reach, with some artificial intelligence to give some gentle guidance while also not blocking access to help by assuming that it has given you the answers you seek either because its a computer and it doesnt "get it" or that the answer has already been given and if you havent gotten the answer you are looking for it just needs to search harder and take you on the merry go round of the "does this answer your question" loop :V


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:21:07
content:
  Oh I know right? I hate that. That should be more configurable but still give some default function that makes sense and wont keep triggering on accident.b


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:21:50
content:
  Or because it absolutely is a user experience issue.  The first environment should not be accessable by anyone else. And no an AI is just dumb.   Just design a tutorial that is simple to follow and interactive.  That educates the bare basics of navigating and using the revamped UI ending on choosing avatars


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:22:51
content:
  Everything else can be learned later on when they are exposed to it by other users.   The on-boarding process should not be complicated.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:24:06
content:
  I think what's needed isn't created yet.  But the MTC and)or having another player pop in on you is just bad


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:28:51
content:
  I prefer it honestly. I'd like to keep community focused on-boarding as the general on-boarding strategy, but I'd much prefer that our developer resources be provided as comprehensive documentation.

  That's mostly from a practicality standpoint, as the system becomes more complex we can't tutorialize or rely on oral tradition :) The basic UI functions can probably be handled by a better designed tutorial flow, the current one is flashy but it's just bullet points. 

  I do think that can be done better, and I do think it's important that someone feel like they have a good enough grasp over system settings, inventory management and locomotion before they're going to feel on even footing in any case.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:29:13
content:
  I have the same Idea. Big emphasis on Avatars. Hoping to really overhaul Avatars in general, even messaged the developers about it, unfortunately, not all of the stuff I was hoping to do with that is possible within the current system even with janky workarounds... Some stuff is planned, other stuff... Could be an easy fix with some teamwork. Gonna have to wait for that stuff as currently, to solve that requires going back and forth in blender. Not all users can do that and should not be expected to. 

  But as I said. Teamwork would make that an easy fix its just a bit of math built into the engine really.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:31:15
content:
  See this is the issue.  New users don't want a complicated experience.  They down want a crash course in game development.  Like I said 90% of the people in the Metaverse are not interested in development.   The basic user needs to have their basic needs met without all the complicated bells and whistles.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:31:23
content:
  I dont think the radial menu is fine. Its technically fine but I have a few ways I want to make it better so that it makes it simple for the user to interact with the system and shortcuts some thing that are currently a bit too complicated for comfort of the average user.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:36:59
content:
  I do. Preferences are personal, but I think it's worth it to keep the culture grounded. It could be handled differently I suppose. In the fediverse this problem is addressed by the nature of each instance having a local timeline and local moderation. We don't have that.

  I'm principally concerned with how to enable growth in a way that avoids an Eternal September. User adoption is therefore a high priority, but not one I'm going to see as a primary driver over onboarding flows that encourage acculturation.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:37:53
content:
  What would go a very long way inuser retention is at the end of the tutorial is providing a selection of curated avatars for the user to choose from.   And a variety of them.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:40:07
content:
  Last time I checked it asked you if you wanted to engage with mentors and let them pop in or enter the tutorial privately?

  Though the way that is implemented is really intrusive and if you know what you're there for and just want to jump in and get started it is a pain to try to get through. Even though its only a few seconds,still annoying.

  Would do better as an in the corner thing instead of a forceful popup, so you can see the world is private by default but can also see that there are mentors available to help. Can be placed in such a way where it is out of the way but if you are confused and trying to understand what to do, it becomes more noticeable. But can be clearly seen either way minimalistically.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:41:24
content:
  Let me know of those changes and if I find myself in a position to do something about it I can examine that angle


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:43:19
content:
  I disagree. I view it as avoiding the hard part of user on-boarding by focosing on the portions that can be automated. We do not benefit from simply leaving the scope of user onboarding to teaching the technical proficiency required for product use.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:43:40
content:
  Oh I wasn't aware. Maybe if the portals had buttons that can be clearly seen to toggle between public and private with some visual changes to the portal that show you which is which by contrast with the clearly labelled button?


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:45:50
content:
  To be honest actually it might actually be a good idea to provide a very basic tutorial and then give access to either more in depth official tutorials or access to easy to browse community tutorials with ratings and reviews?


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:46:34
content:
  The on-boarding process should literally just be navigation both environmental, UI and traversing to new worlds.  And selecting a prefab avatar.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:49:31
content:
  I am not saying that. I am saying that the focus on the product as a product rather than acknowledging the scope of the system as a network leads to obvious and well represented repercussions. Hince why I specifically mention Eternal September, or a more contemporary example: the vrchat Ugandan Knuckles explosion and subsiquent community management nightmare.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:51:26
content:
  I disagree. That's where it starts, sure. That's the part that does not require intervention, sure. But that's not the end of the question when ti comes to new user experience and onboarding.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:52:15
content:
  No.  It absolutely is.  Anything after that they can ask other people for help.  The mentor program should be axed


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:53:06
content:
  That's your opinion. My opinion is that neglecting the social aspect of a social platform is irresponsible.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:53:27
content:
  I've had to tell mentors on three separate occasions to back off, while I was working on a world for advice on me and telling me what to do, when it wasn't asked for in my own world.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:54:35
content:
  There is a reason it doesn't have shader support. Done improperly, I could use them to brick your GPU. I'm a bit concerned by some of the abominations me and my friends have whipped up without them, which I hope we will be the only ones to ever see something like. But that's unrealistic. More important right now to keep users safe than make things look pretty but they can be implimented safely with some extensive testing.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:56:54
content:
  And how do you normalize that process? Are you unaware of the issues social enviroemnts online have with trolling, flame wars, and tacit toxicity? Reactive moderation only goes so far, onboarding is the step where you can be proactive about those issues.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 14:57:03
content:
  Exactly this, or the most common horror story a mentor dropping furre avatar after furre avatar for a new user after being told no.  This is the most common thing I hear.   Nothing against furries.  But not every new user is a furre or wants to be a furre they can make that decision later down the line


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:00:27
content:
  Geenz has outlined a pretty viable method to allow for user created shaders by implimenting some cliud based dynamic analysis/fuzzing tools as part of the asset variant pieline. I'm fairly confident we'll see custom shaders eventually.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:01:37
content:
  Some of that was patched recently. At least partially. A friend of mine was messing with stuff, accidentally stole the universe world (LMAO) and freaked out and promptly filed a big report


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:02:30
content:
  Only in the metaverse can you accidentally steal the universe by poking at stuff and tinkering with it xD


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:04:30
content:
  Reason number 4 people leave Neos: "I don't, want people accessing my personal computer". Doesn't matter if it's a real threat or not, that's how people feel.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:06:08
content:
  :P countervaliantly, I would not use Neos if it was entirely tied to some company's servers. It's a big reason I left VRChat.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:07:08
content:
  You know you could use NCR to incentivise hosting headless servers and renting out headless hosting so users don't have to host it themselves


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:07:51
content:
  People don't want to pay money just to be in a world with more than 10 people without shitting the bed


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:08:00
content:
  It is with the headless client. People can join headless sessions without ever having someone else 'on their computer'.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:09:00
content:
  Yes but servers cost money and for the short term, it is one of many options which could be implemented side by side.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:09:06
content:
  And the average person isn't going to want to deal with that or understand it. They just want the option to not host on their machine


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:11:10
content:
  I'm personally working with a few friends to make a system that would let you spin up a headless session of whatever world you want for whatever time period you want. Was a bit difficult to get the NCR integration, had to use undocumented APIs, but we might honestly just scrap that.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:13:42
content:
  Ye. Though it's a sound VC strategy, throw money at a bunch of projects with the understanding that the scale of a single success will pay for the sunk cost of the lot. We just aren't in the position of the VCs.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:13:44
content:
  I'm sorry I was under the impression that people are already spending at least a buck for storage.  No reason people can't pay for $10 for server hosting of instances


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:14:59
content:
  The APIs we used are explicitly not supported  (as in they may change and likely will given the current situation)and getting the in game management stuff was a huge painpoint. It would be easier to do it with just a web administration console.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:16:58
content:
  Yes but the cost of the initial investment is very high so it would work better to crowdsource it and let people contribute their own server power and get paid while Neos takes a small cut


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:17:20
content:
  There isn't an easy way to confirm in game transactions for 3rd party services ATM. We used the chat API for it, and it seemed to work, but at scale it would be bad to rely on it because it's not in any way gurrenteed and we'd probably get into situations where people paid NCR and we never recieved a receipt.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:20:33
content:
  It was our only reason for wanting to include NCR as a payment option :) The end goal was being able to just press a button, authorize a transaction and boom, the server is set up with your account having the correct permissions and a management console that only you can interact with by default.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:21:51
content:
  That intigration was the fun part TBH, other than that, it's just server hosting and that's boring :<


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:22:10
content:
  1. Not everyone is a long term thinker. To salvage NCR it needs more use cases now as well as a long term strategy like server hosting

  2. Equal opportunity is fair. People want to make money. Giving people ways to make money with NCR will make it far more popular and help people find options to survive these hard times


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:26:05
content:
  And not repeat the mistakes of the past. Like, I was a moderately large holder when the incamous discord poll hit. That shook my faith, personally. For reasons that ended up bieing up... pretty on the money actually XD


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:30:27
content:
  I will make them move forward. There is a way forward in any situation so lets find it and make it happen. Dont underestimate your own power.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:32:49
edit_date: 2022-04-22 15:33:05
content:
  The discussion is often the most impactful thing going forward. Discorse shapes the world *shrrug* I'm on the fence about Neos in particular right now, but I sure as heck will bring the insights I gaiined from its experience into whatever projects I work on or invest time in going forward.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:34:04
content:
  Trust me I grew up in a rough part of a shit country. I know this country has much worse but there is always a way to take matters into your own hands especially if you work together


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:34:46
content:
  I dont think Neos can really be in the market asking for someone with 5 years of VR UI experience.. If they brought someone in it likely would be a someone starting out and that's okay I think


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:35:44
content:
  It has less to do with VR or more basic game design and user experience you missed a whole lot of discussion after this post


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:38:14
content:
  I can perhaps at least magically become a developer and then my loud voice gets louder and I can be a loudspeaker for people like you 😊


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:41:43
content:
  Incoming hot take: Yeah, I'm in the basket of hiring experienced devs at this point that understand they are getting paid to do a professional job and listen to their bosses.  I'm all for community building and development on the community side.  But I want professionalism and experience on the development side.


type: message
date: 2022-04-22 15:46:27
edit_date: 2022-04-22 15:46:53
content:
  Why do those have to conflict? I do have professional experience, and my understanding tells me that to get the best results, listening to the customer and relaying your understanding of the customer's perspective is a massive key to success


type: message
date: 2022-04-23 00:18:45
content:
  It's worth looking into for the purposes of computer mediated learning, definitely. Uniquely enabling for course-ware and sort of the only game in town ATM.


type: message
date: 2022-04-23 04:51:08
content:
  To put it simply the current UI is designed by Devs for Devs.  The UI needs to be designed for the end user.  With the understanding that the End-user will not initially or even never, want to engage with the Dev tools or advanced settings


type: message
date: 2022-04-23 05:20:56
content:
  This is also an issue.  People *don't* have their own avatar to upload.  This is assuming they are migrating from VRchat and have made something in blender etc etc.  This assumptions is a "quit moment".  Users go I don't have anything like that or I don't want to deal with this shit and they log out.   There needs to be a selection of catered avatars for new users.  Hire professionals on work for hire contracts to create a handful of  basic avatars or select  people from the community.


type: message
date: 2022-04-23 05:42:23
content:
  Minimizing the amount of clicks required for a user to accomplish basic tasks is always ideal. I agree that UI/UX needs to be research and data-driven. When I was working with Facebook on Horizon there were focus groups that helped the team to identify bottlenecks in the user and creator experiences.


type: message
date: 2022-04-23 05:43:42
edit_date: 2022-04-23 13:25:39
content:
  But as burning said previously, the vast majority of end users are consumers and the UI needs to heavily cater to that demographic. As much as the Neos furries try and push back against the notion of VRChat being a direct competitor, it absolutely is.


type: message
date: 2022-04-23 05:49:17
content:
  Which isn't a bad thing. VRChat has seen incredible user growth over the past few years and is really the first social UGC experience since Second Life to be commercially viable long-term. Neos has an opportunity to take that formula, combine it with a collaborative in-world building toolset, and take it to the next level. Having the creation pipeline in-world completely removes the need for external IDEs and is setting the stage for major growth through crowdsourcing and user content.


type: message
date: 2022-04-23 05:51:35
content:
  Which is why seeing the company so fractured is tragic. Neos has a golden opportunity to establish itself as a major player in the story of the Metaverse, but the more time that goes by the less of a first-to-market advantage they have in this space.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 11:46:50
edit_date: 2022-04-25 13:57:29
content:
  ProbablePrime isn't employed by Solirax and is purely a volunteer coder - something he himself has confirmed on Twitter recently. The only two people with executive decision making power are Karel and Frooxius. With a 50/50 voting rights deadlock the only person who can remove Karel is Karel himself - which isn't happening. I would pay no attention to the bombastic claims made by the furry contingent.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 12:04:53
content:
  Agreed. Operating without contracts has emboldened them to speak on behalf of the company while misrepresenting the executive leadership for the sake of pushing their own fraternal agenda. I feel that a lot of the team members gaslit Frooxius into believing he was a victim of Karel and pushed him to release the negative statements through peer pressure knowing that it would directly result in minimizing the value of NCR - and by proxy Karel's involvement. ProbablePrime himself said "If Karel leaves, NCR leaves with him" and I believe the situation we are in was very intentionally crafted as a way to push Karel out because he was seen as an outsider. It's textbook divide and conquer tactics, which is why it's more important than ever to start uniting a strong community in Neos that includes a diverse demographic of players and cultures outside of the status quo.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 12:11:41
edit_date: 2022-04-25 12:18:52
content:
  I meet so many people in Neos who support Karel but are afraid to voice that for fear of being ostracized from the community, and I think there's something incredibly wrong with that.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:10:45
content:
  If you think new users are going to find that folder or understand that there even is a folder, then you're not paying attention to the discussion.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:13:44
content:
  And I have spoken to over a hundred people who acknowledged it as a "quit moment" for them along side the terrible introduction and dealing with aggressive mentors.  Sorry but your anecdote is irrelevant


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:14:26
content:
  Perhaps you should read the past couple hundred messages on here instead of jumping on an out of context comment.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:18:39
content:
  No one said it would and if you're not going to read the past conversation, you would understand we are talking about quit moments and basics


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:21:13
content:
  The UX and UI is universally acknowledged to be dog shit.  By everyone.  Including actual professional game designers.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:23:42
content:
  It can literally be knocked out and made better by a professional UI/UX expert in less than a couple weeks.  You would know that if you kept up with the convo


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:26:15
edit_date: 2022-04-25 14:26:31
content:
  Some critics gave Rise of Skywalker a standing ovation.  Doesn't mean the movie wasn't absolutely terrible in the eyes of the audience.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:29:27
content:
  The point was that it doesn't matter if a few people give it praise, if the end result is people walking away from it and never coming back. Including YouTubers who are just doing a one off review for content This wasn't a clever retort.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:36:43
content:
  "I was distracted it wasn't my fault" then wait until you're not busy and read the chat like the rest of us.  And no "making the best" with what you have is not how to deal with a broken UX that drives off new users.  My god


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 14:45:17
content:
  The setting menu is a laundry list of of a tangled mess  It needs to be organized into separate tabs. Like other menu sections are (sessions  word tab). All the different function sections do not share a universal design aesthetic and have conflicting structures.  All advanced settings should be in an advanced tab.  Simplify simplify simplify, the file sheirarchy presented as a grid is foreign and alien to people who use mainstream OS (and literally forced text to microscopic levels).   Oh and the UI itself clips through the game world and other users when it should act as an overlay.   This is basic first week of first year of design school knowledge.   The menu is obviously hacked together by more than one person and never unified 7nder one design scheme.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 15:16:07
content:
  We are literally only talking about the menu.  Not even touching upon world building.  Just the menu UI.  The entire context of the conversation was about user retention.  People quit within a couple hours or so because of several major factors.  A major one being a poorly designed UI.  You guys can't deny it till the cows come how.  But that doesn't change the fact that people are driven away by it.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 15:18:01
content:
  Again if people bother to read the rest of the convo from yesterday.   We were talking about rebuilding the entire UI/UX from the ground up regarding the main menu.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 15:47:49
content:
  I usually ask the new user themself what they expect. If they expect the latter, I show them the Avatar Station world. That way they can have that initial browsing experience. After that if they want to setup their own avatar I show them how to do that in as much detail as they want.

  It's tricky to say what the default experience should be. Because it's usually case-by-case with new users. Some new users are looking for a platform that Isn't like vrc or cvr at all, So I'd show them what makes neos special.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 15:58:24
edit_date: 2022-04-25 15:59:00
content:
  Furthermore; In my experience welcoming new users, the ones that are looking to do more in VR will usually stick around once they discover the possibilities. Even more likely to stay when they create an avatar that they connect with and find a close friend group.

  New users simply looking for an alternative social platform will NEED to feel comfortable, not overwhelmed, and not feel like they're not clever enough. So I tread lightly with these kind of new users. They usually don't know their own potential. And anxiety and self-doubt can be high when moving to a new social platform. Especially when the complexity doesn't click at first.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 16:10:19
content:
  Some people want to learn alone too. However I think that option doesn't actually close the tutorial session to the public though. I've joined people in the MTC that are like: "woah I thought I clicked 'I want to learn alone'."

  In those situations I usually show them how to close the session access level first. Then say "I can chill here and you can ask any questions or I can cruise away"


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 16:12:26
edit_date: 2022-04-25 16:12:52
content:
  Still though. Yeah. There also won't always be someone helpful to fill the gaps of the initial experience.
  Needs to be a way for someone to get comfortable on their own and take a learning path that suits them.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 16:17:05
edit_date: 2022-04-25 16:17:57
content:
  Yeah it's not comfortable when that happens haha.
  I do appreciate the mentor program. However, I personally feel that a lot of potential users get spooked. Mentors usually run through a checklist with new users. And I strongly think that a checklist falls under the 'one size fits all' approach.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 18:19:48
content:
  At least today proved that the Neos volunteers / team members are no longer able to spread baseless FUD. Their strong comments earlier had no impact on the price, which suggests their ability to intentionally crash the price of NCR has ended.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 18:23:22
content:
  I never wanted to take sides but the way the rest of the "team" have behaved has forced me to. I'm rooting for Neos, and Karel is the only one who has a realistic path forward for the project to thrive and reach its full potential. I'm hopeful.


type: message
date: 2022-04-25 19:59:23
edit_date: 2022-04-25 20:03:40
content:
  Honestly I don't think anyone has presented a very realistic path forward for Neos. But that might just be my pessimism with the lack of any clear plans or sign of progress in negotiations. We are at an impasse between the founders and the messaging has not been one of coming to a compromise.

  I think both Karel and Froox are intrinsically motivated to the point we will not see either of them sell out their share. Realistically Neos can not continue without consensus between its owners or a court order. The later will IMO likely result in the dissolution of the legal entity.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 06:10:53
content:
  damn looking at the discord it's such a toxic mess. They do nothing but obsessively talk about Karel in such a cultish way


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 06:39:17
edit_date: 2022-04-26 13:45:18
content:
  a compromise is not on the table I think and I don't think the team's proposal is in good faith nor would they ever entertain a proposal that takes NCR holders under their wings, which would be one thing if not for the sleazy way they pretend to care. It is crystal clear that this needs to go to court, because from a glance at the discord shows the devs live in a fairytale world where childish finger pointing absolves responsibility and the people they cause real life harm to only exist as internet lingo like "cryptobros"


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 06:40:39
content:
  If anything the Neos team shows the dangers of planting yourself in an insulated community, only hiring your friends and then seeing people outside that group as your disposible products.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 06:51:15
content:
  selfish assholes exist in all flavors. When I read over the discord I feel bad for Karel having to be an outsider working around such a jerk clique.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 06:55:14
content:
  it wasn't until recent years that furries became synonymous with a hobby of petty internet arguments and being bullies. Its only in recent years I see them as the quintessential "ratio" spamming dogpilers on social media or always fishing for antagonists


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:03:08
content:
  Ive been around them a long time and some friends are as such, I know there's both a charming history and also an ugly past. Charming as a fandom of socially awkward types gathering around a love of cartoon animals they find appealing to their imagination, but an ugly past of weird public paraphilia and childish drama


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:05:41
content:
  when you met someone with a cartoon wolf pfp you could expect weirdness of course, but it wasn't until recent years I feel you expect hostile behavior, doxing or political arguments


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:10:48
edit_date: 2022-04-26 07:17:09
content:
  I've been involved in the furry fandom since alt.fan.furry on Usenet in the late 90s. At the time it was mostly IT nerds and programmers who found common ground in a shared escapism. Tumblr really started leaking into the fandom around 2010 and it devolved into an echo chamber of social justice crusades because the more narcissistic public figures discovered that it was an effective way of getting attention. It became incredibly cult-like and these takeover situations became common in furry software projects and even furry convention leadership. 

  At the end of the day it's about attention, power, and creating cults of personality which we are now seeing with Neos. Karel refused to march to their drum and they started a character assassination campaign against him with wildly unrealistic narratives like intentionally locking Frooxius in the house. I'm too old and have been around the fandom too long to buy into the reality distortion field they've created in Discord.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:30:47
content:
  it definitely is a character assassination campaign and the mods there just seem to exist to protect the endless smearing


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:33:45
content:
  there are negotiations but a quick look at discord seems to show the team is not taking them seriously and the prospect of considering the wellbeing of NCR holders is a no-fly zone to them. They would rather go to court than do that


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:37:47
edit_date: 2022-04-27 04:48:42
content:
  Frooxius along with the volunteers have already demonstrated that they were willing to destroy almost half a billion dollars in value to remove Karel. There is no reasonable outcome for them other than Karel stepping down and making NCR 3rd party - which Karel has stated in not happening. At this point I think the most viable option is for Karel to start a parallel team with contracts and move forward with development with or without the others.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:41:38
content:
  Yeah its the only outcome I see and I think Froox and his friends are trying to railroad that outcome too.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:43:00
content:
  I think Legal measures need to continue and move onto the next stage, as for weak reasons Froox is dead set on throwing his holders under the bus


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:43:55
edit_date: 2022-04-26 07:44:15
content:
  it seems to be a personal grudge, as devs say they want to axe NCR holders because they feel crypto stressed them out


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:44:44
content:
  The furries don't see NCR token holders as a valid part of Neos. They see this entire group as dead weight that needs to be cut off and are vehemently anti-crypto and anti-Karel despite the ICO being an important part of the revenue mode and capital raise for years.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:47:59
content:
  Yeah, and the negotiations are fake as far as I'm concerned. Its vile. Theyve opened up about trying to damage NCR as they see it as hurting Karel's ability to pay lawyers or something


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:50:33
edit_date: 2022-04-26 09:44:36
content:
  I feel NCR holders should get together and talk about our own legal measures about being scammed. The very notion of collecting money from an ICO and then trying to attack its value and disassociate with it is criminal behavior and should be a part of these legal talks.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:51:46
edit_date: 2022-04-26 09:44:54
content:
  And I hope Karel is considering that in his case, as his cofounder seeks to fraud crowdfunders and I feel this should hold weight in the legitimacy of Froox's claim to the company he damaged.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:56:23
content:
  and consider that the ICO wasnt super profitable until the months of November/December when it exploded, which was also the time drama started and volunteers were refusing to send invoices


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 07:58:06
content:
  Waz, what is misleading is pretending youre popping in here for genuine discussion. Because we all know you scrap the telegram hoping to collect something incriminating.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:00:08
content:
  also you seem to want to pretend the devs were not attacking the very value of NCR at this time too, purposefully damaging its imagine to investors, trying tp drive its price down, then those same devs are crying that Karel felt he was obligated to do buybacks?


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:03:48
content:
  But how about I point out that those devs shouldnt be rewarded with fat paychecks for attacking the value of the very thing they want to be paying them?


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:06:24
content:
  The devs really wanted that ETH while at the same time slandering their own crypto and being apathetic to it. They literally wanted to collect sucker's money and then tell them to fuck off, then get rewarded for it. Instead Karel felt he had responsibility to the NCR holders whom they attacked, and he transfered that ETH into NCR to help ita value


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:07:16
content:
  dont get it wrong. Karel's buybacks are a goddamn charity to the frauded NCR holders that the devs want to fuck and the dispose of.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:08:43
content:
  well Karel tried that. He took the funding and proposed a 2022 roadmap along with new hires and he was rebuked.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:09:58
content:
  and during this time, devs and the community were in anti-NCR mode and Froox decided NCR holders were the least of his problems, acceptable sacrifices.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:11:45
edit_date: 2022-04-26 08:21:06
content:
  insiders on the Neos team sold their NCR and then they announced they wanted to end the token and announce it was an unlicensed and unassociated with them.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:13:01
content:
  https://www.opindia.com/2022/04/twitter-locks-source-code-to-only-allow-critical-updates-temporarily-here-is-what-we-know-so-far/


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 08:32:46
content:
  guess it comes across wrong, but its just a scraper. who knows though, maybe itll get used against me or others. Someone was working on their own little shitlist of names at one point, lol


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 10:08:26
content:
  Froox was at the meeting as well, we told Arthur that Somnium could be a Neos world if he wanted at some point


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 11:18:47
content:
  Don't underestimate the "Pro" community - all those people, companies and institutions that drive neos to the next level, they are usually very quiet on discord/telegram flamewars, put of professionalism


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 18:06:30
content:
  I'm not personally very profit driven. I'm more invested in the prospect of a metaverse platform that respects and involves its users.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 18:18:02
content:
  It was successful on it's own terms. I suppose that is what doesn't translate. No one involved wanted to be millionaires, they wanted to develop Neos. It got to a point where they felt they were being told to compromise the platform's vision.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 18:31:53
content:
  We aren't here to dethrone anyone, we're here to provide what we have to offer and are passionate about. I don't see any reason to compromise on that just for market share, if that means what we popularize isn't something we see as good.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 18:36:25
content:
  If you fail to articulate your metrics of success within the mission statement of the project, then what relevance are they?


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 18:46:23
content:
  I get what you mean. I ususally use usenet's Eternal September because it's well represented in the literature and it's such an old event that no one likely has an emotional investment in the statement XD


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 19:43:30
content:
  I think we could have realistically forecast 5-10k concurrent users in 5 years. Which like, that's pretty good for a VR game. Not honestly sure what the future will look like ATM. Desktop mode had just gotten to a usable state as this whole thing cropped up, would have really liked to see the numbers without these other factors.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 19:51:43
content:
  Just simple guestimation. We went from 15 to 300 in two years, showed pretty steady growth in 2020-2021 from the data I saw, I don't think 5-10K is an unreasonable five year forecast at all but i'm not claiming any authority.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 20:00:03
content:
  *shrug* network effects are as they are. The growth was still pretty consistant over 2020-2021, I just figure the end of that year likely has the meta hype factor and wouldn't be represenitive.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 20:02:21
content:
  I've seen some people who interact with both. Even had high opinions on both. It's hard to give you a represenitive read on that TBH. Of the creators I've engaged with I'd say that the overlap was ~2%, but they didn't view them as subsitutes.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 20:04:29
content:
  There was also the steam delisting debachle, which I think contributed to that whole weird situation, but I'm not sure as to what the effects were.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 20:13:40
edit_date: 2022-04-26 20:13:53
content:
  They hit 10K in their first year? Over 10k, if you count the peak. I don't think that I'm anywhere near that ambitious with my guess.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 20:25:18
content:
  I think Neos has more sticking potential than VRC, but I don't think it's ever going to be mass market.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 20:28:27
content:
  Switching costs from a user perspective are absolute. Neos as a simi-professional tool, or neos as a meaningful alternative to corporate friendly media landscapes are the markets I personally see it succeeding in.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 21:51:55
content:
  This is a hot take if I ever heard one.  Neos literally has the lowest user retention at the moment of all the social VR or Metaverse platforms


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 21:53:54
content:
  I can't make anything in VRChat, whereas we have people who intigrate Neos into their production chain as a tool. I see that as a more stable user base than social vr users.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 21:55:58
content:
  It bottle necks the workflow, building in VR is neat and all, but there is zero professional application for it


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 21:57:46
content:
  We're using it for motion capture workflows as well as architecture visualization, where it is just quicker than anything else and supports a ludicrous number of import formats. Like, there is an established professional Neos user community.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:03:58
content:
  We're talking about integrations for either previsualization or design. If you want some of our mocap examples, just look at any of our trailers. If you're interested in my personal portfolio, it's published open access on Neos. :P


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:05:32
content:
  I have no idea what you are talking about. I just literally told you about a b2b workflow, I have no idea what gets more professional then that XD


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:06:26
content:
  What businesses.  I am asking this questions, because that's the only way I know you are not a bullshitter


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:09:31
content:
  Am I wrong for thinking the talk about whether Neos needs to appeal to new subcultures is actually people talking vaguely about... something else theyre feeling?


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:13:09
content:
  You haven't been on VRC lately have you?  desktop uses are a minority.  quest users are the dominant population


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:18:33
content:
  Basicly, we need to move to a new verison of mono before we can proeprly use android memory management, so right now if you boot up the quest version of Neos, it will crash in under an hour as it fails to release assets.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:20:07
content:
  This is one of the reasons I'm here TBH. Meaningful choice is important in the ecosystem and I do not trust Meta, as much as I think we should support their hardware.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:20:09
content:
  I can't tell if this is bait or you just don't understand the difference between x86 and ARM is more than just processing power


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:22:24
content:
  I don't disagree. They are a big shark and we have to watch where they are moving. But I don't want them calling the shots for the project in any capacity.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:23:27
content:
  I generally agree I just think people, specially on the discord, are way in an ideology about growth being bad and these concepts of the right and wrong type of people


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:24:57
content:
  My point is that you tend to be dismissive and try to steer the conversation all over the place.  THe fact remains Neos has the lowest user retention in the space.   It is not anywhere near good enough to be a professional tool for a workflow, and it is remains a PCVR exclusive it will be a negative if your goal is to make it commercial viable regardless of professional users or social VR users


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:25:15
content:
  x86 is a crusty ISA that no one, including intel, likes. ARM is probably going to displace it in the areas where legacy software is not a hurdle to adoption.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:27:15
content:
  ill just drop my opinion and ive said it before: I think the best demographic to appeal to for user growth is Japanese users, and appealing to then


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:27:36
content:
  Its like you don't know how to have a naturally flowing conversation with a human being, you literally communicate like a chat bot


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:28:09
content:
  naw I agree, again furries have generally turned into combatative assholes in various online circles


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:28:56
content:
  Probably :) Though I'd say commodification is generally frowned on in hobbyist spaces, with big caveats if you're being seen as taking on Goliath.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:30:28
content:
  I'm starting to think the UI/UX and tutorials and lack of engaging content are only have the reason Neos have low user retention


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:31:14
content:
  In my opinion its less that there are furries but pretentious coder/developer cosplayers tend to be drawn tothe furre fandom


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:33:23
content:
  and thats not a furry thing, its just you get used to seeing some stupid cartoon wolf or something associated with bad behavior


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:34:48
content:
  And that is fair.  But its unfortunate that over the years the bad apples have spoiled the bunch for you


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:35:19
content:
  you stay in insular groups and then outsiders judge you based on how you treat them, but among you and your friends, you dont see the issues.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:37:14
content:
  I think we all know that the fandom isnt the issue, its just people say "its the furry's fault" when reallu they mean "this insular group"


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:37:59
content:
  and theyre talking about this toxic shitshow character assassination cesspool channel and their ineffective mods


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:38:22
content:
  Not to pull the plug on your fursecutions,  but very few people in this chat give a damn about furry culture.  We want to discuss the issues and problems neos faces and what can be done to address them.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:39:40
content:
  I get that honestly, and I agree to an extent. We have to play this game if we want a slice of the pie, but selling it means taking an approach that focuses on the aspect of the platform we've already been sold on. Like, I'm sympathetic to some of the arguments for decreasing user pain points in on boarding, I especially agree that the tutorial experience is ass. But yeah, I get ruffled when that is focused on to the exclusion of how to incorporate some of the messy interpersonal stuff (etiquette, acculturation).

  I am definately guilty of getting combative with some of the people here, sweeping comments annoy me and as much as I try I can't help it, but like. I am engaging in good faith. Ultimately, we either move forward with Neos or we end up with a schizm. I'm invested in Neos and would prefer it to not schizm.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:41:36
content:
  you have a 24/7 chat about Karel specifically, and you pretend that furries are being called out too much yet fail to notice the months of dismissive "cryptobro" labeling.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:42:46
content:
  You let it slip when your cohorts call people shills I see. I watched to see if anyone would clean up that comment in the discord, lol


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:43:10
content:
  Reductive lables hurt. Yeah. I remember when disagreeing about moderation processes made me a 'techbro'.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:44:03
content:
  I guess both? If furry is a label then so is that. Both are groups that believe in something, but Bro like techbro or dudebro are almost always terms lacking any sort of endearment


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:48:44
content:
  Fixing and moving forward with Neos Development.  People alot of people bought into the coin to support the platform and potentially make a bit of an investment for themselves.  The thing that boggles my mind is why there was ANY hate for the ICO at all.  It's literally function like an IPO without either of the co-founders giving up equity.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:51:03
content:
  I honestly have no idea. I dont mind cryptobro as a label itself, I just know its used hatefully or dismissively. Like just tyep cryprobro into a seach engine or on twitter search and its all just people hating this faceless group that they apply greed or stupidity to. And thats basicallly what the discord has been doing for months and somehow people dont see it as a problem (because they and the mods want them gone)


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:53:13
content:
  I think its bullshit to claim no funds from NCR went to neos infrastructure or toward the company or platforms growth since 2018.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:56:41
content:
  Because the moment Neos as an unprofitable start-up had funding, the drama happened. And at and during this time the team was apathetic to NCR and fostered a hostile community to investors. And then those people want to be rewarded with fat payouts while damaging NCR's value?


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:58:11
content:
  I think this has more to do with not feeling like their work was being valued. The actual hire was not a material issue, but representative of the breakdown of mutual respect.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:58:26
content:
  The dev team is literally faux-professionals who would have been fired at teh drop of a hat at any other project.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:58:42
content:
  Look I have been in the discord for a long time and I saw it unfold. The team would never just say openly "we care about NCR", instead they were creatong chat channels about " ways tp brainstorm removing NCR from Neos" and other damaging bullshit actions... and they want tp get PAID to do it???


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 22:59:47
content:
  Reading through the chain of events that we have access to, that is what they did initially, then escilated as they continued to feel they were not being listened to.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:00:55
content:
  It woud be a viable beta product and not a proof of concept alpha.  It's also not an issue of furries, but semi-NEETS


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:01:56
edit_date: 2022-04-26 23:02:24
content:
  theres a difference when the mods and devs have a preveiling opinion about things and cultivate a certain stance to be the preveiling one. And when it comes to being hostile to the people investing in you, you should not be rewarded with those investor's money.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:02:28
content:
  I've met some of the people on the dev team if Neos didn't exist I think they would have a hard time being employed in general


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:04:46
content:
  then devs should not be entitled to that money if they can't understand a simple responsibility like looking after the party funding you.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:04:57
content:
  Realisticly, Neos would be another project. Like. I don't really understand the position that the vast majority of staff is somehow immaterial to the project but the management is essential. It may be true that neos would not have made it to today without Karel. I am not going to make claims otherwise, but it seems patently absurd to treat the super-majority of a project as non-essential.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:08:55
content:
  It went to the company and they havw to choose how to invest it in the growth of the company and game I guess. As Blue says, being the token doesnt give you any rights to anything, right?


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:10:08
content:
  Because the team was too craven to go against the popular anti-crypto grain and they wanted to insult and belittle theor own token holders and CEO... then they want to get rewarded with that money? Heeeeelll no.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:10:36
edit_date: 2022-04-26 23:11:05
content:
  Karel's buybacks were a charity to the individuals that the neos team tried to defraud. Thats the fact you dont want to accept.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:12:22
content:
  Its so funny seeing the devs get mad that the ETH didnt go in their hands and went to NCR instead. They wanted to dump NCR, tell its holders to go fuck themselves, then get rewarded with a bunch of ETH. Lmao.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:14:45
content:
  When it comes down to it, if you're too fucking stupid to negotiate a contract up front before doing anytype of work, you don't get to bitch and moan later for being "underpaid", that's how the real world works.  And its the CTO's job to ensure that people are not working for free.  The dev team is directly under the CTO.  Karel didn't pay anyone unless Frooxius asked him too.  that how a corporate structure works.  I swear it's like people ignore the basic hierarchy about how things work.  If your complaint is that the Dev team may or may not have been paid.  You need to lay half the blame on Frooxius as its literally his job


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:17:16
content:
  Incase it isnt clear to everyone, devs refused to send invoices, and indeed even before that some devs had been paid money, we just dont know how much or how often.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:17:33
content:
  So what you are saying is if froox felt that the arangement was unfair he should bargan for the team as a representative rather than they individually attempting to solve these grievances?


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:18:59
content:
  well fact is fpr the last 4 years Neos didnt have funds, as a small unprofitable stateup. Then the moment it turned wildly profitable, they took actions to damage that profitability, something they didnt have to do and wasnt mutually exclusive to them wanting to split from their CEO.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:20:26
content:
  It atleast appeared like things were fine as far back as November. Judging by the leakes meeting notes.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:21:23
content:
  So in other words Froox, rather than addressing the issue of getting his team paid properly he, waited months before making a stink about it.  Sound like he should be fired through a termination suit.   (owning 50% equity doesn't prevent you from being terminated.)


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:22:45
content:
  Well in those implied months, Neos wasn't profitable. It didnt have the money to be paying salaries. they only took actions the moment the company did.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:23:12
content:
  We're not going to be able to know the details until they are made public. Most likely we will not know the full story unless this actually goes to court and those details are deemed relevant. :< We are doomed to have to apply inductive reasoning.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:24:11
content:
  Not always the case.  Sometimes a termination suite can actually get a court to order a substation amount of equity be sold off, especially if there is gross negligence


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:24:43
content:
  if they negotiate, Froox's devs have made it clear dropping NCR holders is something he wants and he wont waver on that


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:25:41
edit_date: 2022-04-26 23:26:26
content:
  personally Im in it for the longhaul and for me its gotten personal, and I want to see it go to court


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:27:11
content:
  In all likely hood my bet is on a termination suite if negotiations fail.  there is just too much Froox did wrong in his role as CTO


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:29:29
edit_date: 2022-04-26 23:33:43
content:
  The Frooxius contingent will stop at nothing to rid Neos of NCR, the token holders, and Karel. They are not operating in good faith and I don't think there is any middle ground or mutually beneficial arrangements that can be made at this point. Karel has to take control of the company if there is going to be a future for NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:30:23
content:
  well as I've said before, I think Froox's actions to fraud NCR holders should be one of many grievances against him.


type: message
date: 2022-04-26 23:31:58
edit_date: 2022-04-26 23:34:00
content:
  Or Neos in general.  Otherwise it would stay a stagnant mess held together by duct tape.  It's past time to grow the project into a real company with a workforce


type: message
date: 2022-04-27 18:49:43
edit_date: 2022-04-28 05:47:21
content:
  Crypto is more than just an investment. Some people actually use it. I might point out you can actually get a crypto visa card and then just spend it everywhere you can use a credit card, as if it were fiat


type: message
date: 2022-04-27 18:52:13
edit_date: 2022-04-27 19:22:07
content:
  Preferable in places like where I live because the banking system is utter crap. Crypto is just so much faster and more convenient than dealing with their crap.


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 01:04:10
content:
  I'm sort of the opinion that sort of 'unsexy' usecase he describes there at the end is probably going to be the way the technology ends up ultimently integrated into the base infrastructure. Invisible and uninteresting to most, fascinating and hotly debated by the relevant experts and hobbyists XD

  I really like ipfs personally and I hope it makes the jump to mainstream use. MIT's Solid + ipfs would make for a really interesting web situation IMO.


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 01:54:41
content:
  yeah kind of weird how something that should be boring backend tech no one should even know is there is getting the dotcom boom in your face treatment


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 02:03:16
content:
  I honestly think the dotcom boom is a really good analogy. Lot of FOMO driving underinformed investment decisions, and the same mix of naive and predatory product strategies with a few stand outs. I actually recently re-watched Nerds 2.0.1: A Brief History of the Internet from 1998, which was right in the middle of that situation. Was really interesting seeing Amazon documented in it's early .com boom form XD


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 02:09:14
content:
  Isn't it weird that's like a quarter century ago and we have really well documented contemporary coverage? Man it's got to be fun to like, formally study the post internet era.


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 06:49:01
edit_date: 2022-04-28 06:50:32
content:
  yeah that is pretty cool, and fun to look back on. I like seeing old tech arguments about things no one cares about anymore, like "who will win the IM client war? Yahoo or AOL?"


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 06:50:14
content:
  there used to be this old show Id love to see again from when I was a small child "silicon spin" where they'd argue this stuff


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 06:57:39
content:
  Yeah I was really into ZDTV/TechTV at the time and would cross paths with Leo and Patrick off and on over the years.


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 06:59:27
content:
  thats really cool, I was very young when ZDTV was on, didn't even have internet at home but I loved watching the shows. I still watch Leo on his current show now and then


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 07:04:05
content:
  The pre-web2 years were super wild west. The internet changed a lot culturally in the late 2000s, especially after the mainstream demographic swap of desktop to mobile users.


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 07:07:23
edit_date: 2022-04-28 07:07:56
content:
  as Ive heard it put well, back then the internet was a hobby and you were there for a reason. Kind of like VR users now.


type: message
date: 2022-04-28 08:01:18
content:
  Agreed, quest 2 is already pretty nice product. Just a bit more fov and clearer resolution and it would be superb


type: message
date: 2022-04-29 15:06:03
content:
  Negotiations take time, we can only hope they can manage to put Neos first and their personal stuff second


type: message
date: 2022-04-29 21:37:47
content:
  If you're going to suggest that route at least provide information for win 10 which is the operating system best for VR applications and not VISTA!
  https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201468


type: message
date: 2022-04-30 18:02:43
content:
  Anyone know if a lawsuit has actually been filed, or has it only been threatened? Wonder if anyone here is from Czech and knows how to navigate their court dockets.


type: message
date: 2022-05-01 17:29:38
content:
  What are you talking about?  the project is still there and the CEO has vehemently stated that they are not backing down from the project.   A rug pull is when a a scammer purposefully cuts and runs with the money.  This far from being a rug pull.


type: message
date: 2022-05-01 17:31:35
content:
  All you can do is sit tight.  98% of litigation never makes it to court because it is negotiated between parties beforehand.  No news is good news.


type: message
date: 2022-05-02 16:21:30
content:
  I do not understand no posting media. If I to share image or video from experience in metaverse this is cant happen in this group.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 02:01:08
edit_date: 2022-05-03 02:02:06
content:
  It's not that logix is not a fairly simple visual scripting Language , its that like most of the UI and UX, actually using the system is an unintuitive frustrating experience. Example brought a coder with 30 years of development history and knowledge of multiple coding languages in one time and they were not able to do squat without being "shown" how to use it.  There thoughts were that the process itself was convoluted and counter intuitive.   It's one of the things that would benefit from being streamlined and simplified, even for vetern users.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 02:05:43
content:
  Logix is fine but there should be a way to expand on programming usability and scripting using things like c#


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 02:31:50
content:
  Paradigmatic shifts are hard for veterans, generally. LogiX in particular is interesting. People used to working with state machines for everything have to think a bit differently. Funnily enough I've had a much quicker uptick with people used to hardware description languages. But like, LogiX isn't supposed to be the main language in Neos IIRC. It's supposed to be supplemented with a text based scripting language down the line to allow for more complex interactions more elegantly.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 02:33:29
content:
  At the moment LogiX is a bit of a bottleneck and gets unwieldy for large projects. It's excellent for showing someone how to directly manipulate values in their avatar though. It's goal is a lot like AppleScript from where I am standing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:05:39
content:
  The point was that not they had 30 years of experience.  The point was that it was someone who could look at the scripting language itself and understand it fully it going to have an equally difficult time using the tools as a new user, because the tools used to actually put the logix together are completely ass backwards and fucking asinine.   The point was that there is nothing wrong with the language itself.  But its implementation of how to construct the logix as a UI/UX issue.   This was not complex of a point to understand,  its concerning concerning you didn't grasp it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:11:20
content:
  And I am telling that it irrelevant. I only used him as an example to illustrate that the language itself is not issue.  But the implementation because I hear the same thing from people with zero scripting experience, and people with six months of experience.  Its an awful system.  That was the point.   Stop focusing on the guy having 30 years experience it was not the point of what I said


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:12:27
content:
  I use it as least 3 to four times a week.  I built 3 worlds already.  I've used logix.  I am telling why the platform hemorages people and why people don't spend time in Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:14:04
content:
  I don't mind the pick from a pallet UI. I just want a better picker by default. The LogiX tip is a bit of a unqiue beast in terms of it's handeling. Storing a component and double click to place isn't terribly intuitive, I'd prefer dipping behavior akin to the brushes. It would also carry through the pallet metaphor intuitively IMO.

  But these are like, small issues. Your reaction is way too hyperbolic IMO @BurningSpaceMan


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:15:08
content:
  Good for you, no one cares.  Just because you can use logix doesn't other people like the system or want to deal with a convoluted mess regardless of how much they actually understand the language itself.  That was the point


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:18:21
content:
  It's going to have to be to a point. I view the tool tips the same way I'd view an emacs Major mode. The functionalities are going to have to differ just because we're dealing with really limited control assumptions given the standard openxr controller.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:20:57
content:
  Why so the CTO and developers who intentionally made the entire thing obtuse to filter out "the normies" (their literal words) can ignore it?  yeah much better use of my time


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:21:47
content:
  This is to discuss NCR and I bring these things up because there value will not go up unless the platform is more approachable


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:22:06
content:
  To my knowledge there have been jokes thrown around about this but has been clarified by the team this is not true


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:23:18
content:
  I am not naming names.  But over a year ago yes, but specific individuals, did actually tell me that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:29:42
content:
  I don't know we should give credence to anecdotes regular users who think the ui/ux is fine when it literally the number one reason peole try neos and quit.  "It's not that bad, I don't mind it"  Good for you guys.  90% of people get chased away by it


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:30:45
content:
  That's a false equivalence, especially after I just outlined what I view as low hanging fruit for UI improvements.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:31:51
content:
  Disagreeing with UI paradigms is no where near the same as positing the UI is intentionally badly designed to keep it to only a group of insiders.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:34:15
content:
  IT can look like shit and be easily understandable and organized and still be miles better than what it is now


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:44:58
content:
  I could right a novel about how bad implentation is in this game.  But I'm not going to do that.  But I will answer all the questions.  I will make a video about it so can visually illustrate how bad it is


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:49:41
content:
  That's another problem. desktop mode is like half done.  Desktop mode would operate like an SDK, but instead its just at the desktop version of VR which is so stupid.  Its fine for actually navigating and interacting with the world but, building could be so much better by allowing a cree cam and manipulating objects like you would in unity or really any other development platform on the planet.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:50:27
content:
  If desktop mode allowed you to shift in and out of a play mode and a dev mode that operated similar to Second life it attract alot of those professional people


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:52:19
content:
  Not saying to copy unity.  Saying there should be an implementation on desktop that allows me to seperate from my avatar and move around the space


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:54:09
content:
  And if you use the loosest criteria for a metaverse, Rec Room is also the largest one in history and available on the most platforms


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:57:54
content:
  I'm just trying to figure out what they are envisioning. I can't comment on the quality of desktop mode stuff, I don't use it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 03:58:45
content:
  THe desktop experience is literally the same as VR without the 6 DoF.  Everything still uses the laser and context menus.  ANd having an SDK isn't a bad thing.  It wouldn't replace the versatility of doing things in VR, but accent the current workflow.  especially if you spend hours building something then look at it in VR and realize this one thing is an inch or two above where you want in and are just able to quickly change it while live.  That is the real power of Neos.  and SDK wouldn't dminish that


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:05:48
content:
  When its in Open beta I will take a look at it.  I don't use the patron because I really don't need the space.  ( I optimize the stuff I put in the cloud)


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:11:59
content:
  *giggles* man you are just a contrarian aren't you? :) I've been experimenting with 3D UIs since 2015, including attempts to get 3D Vr window managers long before we had any degree of standardization for 3D input devices. The field is still very much in flux, especially with people experimenting with various forms of hand tracking and the question of mass market datagloves still unanswered.

  These are, in fact, the new horizons of human computer interfaces. Neos is about as close as anyone has gotten so far to any degree of widely used general purpose VR computing enviroment as much as people keep wanting to stick it into the Social VR pigeonhole. This is my primary interest in the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:13:23
content:
  Would you like to address me again without the creepy and condescending  asterisks at the beginning? Then I might actually consider reading what you wrote after it and responding.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:14:23
content:
  I'm not terribly interested to be honest. You've been less than insightful and I am doubting you are engaging in good faith.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:15:34
content:
  You're free to exit the conversation, but have little control over how I choose to conduct myself :)


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:19:09
content:
  feel free to add me in world.  You seem rational enough to actually have a discussion with, regardless of varying viewpoints


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:26:05
edit_date: 2022-05-03 04:26:33
content:
  I think someone who uses *giggles* without understanding its creepyness and condescending tone isn't going to grasp that


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:29:59
content:
  Istill have faith in the project, even if there is a split, what ever goes forward will have a lot less baggage


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:31:19
content:
  Absolutely this.  The issue isn't the learning curve.  It's how STEEP that curve is.  The majority of the active community has been here for years and is used to the idiosyncrasies that drive away new users.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:34:14
content:
  that have not shown any professional demenor in the past months and on that alone they should be sacked.  Froox as talented as he is as a coder, is an absolutely awful CTO, and barely fills that roll.  There has to be some level of corporate function even for what Froox envisions to manifest.  It's naïve to believe otherwise


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:34:18
content:
  I'm more of the opinion that there isn't another project that's trying to do the same thing. Like, maybe Simula, but it's really not anywhere near the same given the networked enviroment thing Neos has going. We can likely crib notes from other projects with regard to the default UIs, which we've seen with items like the Ring of the Neolander but as we start moving to the periphery of the development side of things there just isn't anything else out there that is providing a more general purpose computing enviroment like Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:37:44
content:
  That's the real issue, neos is really the only game in town wit ha VR experience.  The only thing that would be it is if MAGICAlLLY second life were to be able to smoothly intergrate VR (which they technically can't)


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:39:42
content:
  NEOS is very much as functional alpha state despite what people in the community say.  Beta's are near ready as releases of viable products.  Neos has extrodinary potential there, but its no where near a beta state.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:43:35
content:
  None of the Devs maybe but Karel was and is definitely on board with that, along with a lot of board members and a decent portion of the community.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:43:52
content:
  I don't think it's failing at it's goals. Like, I can just browse to an arbitrary file on my computer, import it, and have a good chance to just start interacting with it meaningfully with in game tools. (would be easier with collections, but I diagress :P) It may not be seeing wide user adoption, and that's something we can work toward, but it is the only game in town if you want to manipulate computer files in VR.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:46:45
content:
  I unblocked you, There are literally a lot of applications that let you manipulate "computer files" in VR  They are just not Social VR applications or "Metaverses"


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:49:20
content:
  It's like what he is describing is WMR.  like thats its only function.  Along with like Dozens of VR blender alternatives.   You take away the social VR and metaverse aspect of Neos and its a mediocre dev platform for  that Unity can do better  the multi-user social aspect and community potential is literally its core strength


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:50:59
content:
  I've not found any that have any real expandability in terms of their like, core function. I'm not saying there aren't painting programs for VR, I'm saying there isn't a general purpose enviroment, which Neos does provide, as jank as it may be. We can just interact with arbitrary data, throw logix at it, and have a meaningful interface for just about anything.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 04:54:37
edit_date: 2022-05-03 05:01:59
content:
  All of which can be done with Unity 2022 and C# Alt-space literally does the same thing as well now just not as versatile


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 05:07:50
content:
  To be clear, I don't think this is the concept that will sell Neos. I'm saying that this is what neos is doing that maters in the long term. I can't really do just normal computing tasks in VRchat. But I can just hit a web API endpoing in neos and grab the data from it, or quickly snipp together an audio clip.

  Yeah, you can go back and extend a unity application to handle a file, but it's not a bootstrapped solution. It's a bit like the early iOS ecosystem. iOS was always a periphery ecosystem, requiring the existence and use of external ecosystems relegating its use to mostly pda type interactions. Then, as it matured, it saw more and more utility programs culminating in the release of the iPad Pro, which is aimed at a professional market.

  At the moment VR is a perephery ecosystem, and I don't think that's where the future of it as a medium lies. Neos treats VR interfaces as a first class citizen, which makes it interesting. It makes it a platform that I could realisticly see expanding into a stand alone computing enviroment. Unity isn't going to be trying to navigate a VR first design any time soon, which makes sense honestly. I don't think we're ever going to get rid of the desktop paradigm entirely, it's a very useful one. But I do think that 3D 6DoF interfaces should be explored as primary computing platforms.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 05:15:57
content:
  The networked nature of neos is /also/ a cool development I think is essential in the next major computing paradigm, yes. It's honestly weird to me that we haven't seen much in terms of like, tightly integrated collaboration tools on the traditional desktop. Though maybe that is what the web-first paradigm is addressing?


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 05:32:12
content:
  I don't think most people understand the core of 'the metaverse' concept. They likely won't, until it's obvious. Like most revolutions in computing. Right now, most people seem to think it means Disney Universe, but with more franchises and honestly that's probably going to sell better.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 05:39:17
content:
  Are you honestly perplexed or just haven't thought about the relationship between killer apps and platforms?


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 05:47:52
content:
  The/a popularizing element of a given platform, usually specifically a piece of software built on top of it that justifies investing in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_application has an extensive list of examples.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 05:52:54
content:
  Well, I did summize it for you! I have a pet peve about just linking wikipedia entries :< They are useful but they feel dismissive.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 05:58:11
content:
  I'm honestly perplexed as why you have a habit of constantly ranting about things no one was talking about or referring to.   Neos is a metaverse, and comparing other Metaverse platforms is rational.  But you keep talking about it like its a development tool that is useful outside of developing for itself.    Which is literally the point of it.  TO develop for the metaverse inside the metaverse.   If it isn't a metaverse there are literally VR apps that do what you can do in Neos but more specialized to different aspects, and on that note.  DEsktop applications that don't need VR to be effective.  I honestly don't see you trying to make any point beyond taking an opportunity to rant about irreelvant things like Disney and interacting with files on your computer.  That was not what anyone was talking about.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:05:05
content:
  I'm not trying to be mean its just, not relevant to anything anyway said or was discussing and it always derails the conversation


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:06:30
content:
  IT doesn't need to be a development tool for anything outside of itself.  Building it to be so would kill it off completely


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:14:45
content:
  And the computer was once interfaced with a command line. Then, the desktop metaphor was developed and became the dominent metaphor for 2d computer interfaces. Then, the direct manipulation multitouch metaphor was developed and becomes the dominent metaphor for mobile computer interfaces. Now, we are developing a 3D 6dof metaphor.

  Neos represents to me a networked, 3D 6dof computing environment. Everyone seems to forget that the metaverse isn't a separate thing. It's an emergent property of computing becoming ubiquitous. If anything is going to usher in that paradigm it needs to be as general purpose as it can be. Needs to be at home equally hosting a full VR experience or augmenting reality. Needs to be able to support casual entertainment tasks as well as professional applications.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:18:35
edit_date: 2022-05-03 13:33:30
content:
  What it is to you specifically what what it is designed to be are two different things.   Sorry but this is just more word salad.   A metaverse has a definition now  In its current meaning, metaverse generally refers to the concept of a highly immersive virtual world where people gather to socialize, play, and work.  No one is using it in any other way.  No one wants to use Neos or is going to care without the Social VR aspect of Neos.  That's literally the core of it.  Without that the Building in VR is useless and no one really cares.   It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:21:01
content:
  The funny thing is, you vehemently didn't understand what I was talking about or referencing to begin with.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:22:43
edit_date: 2022-05-03 06:22:58
content:
  True! I don't think any of these paradigms disappear. Though it /is/ possible to fully engage with a computer without dropping into he command line. We had the Macintosh as the sort of proof of the pudding on that one, no CLI at all.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:23:55
content:
  99% of the population are looking for an experience not a development tool.  They will eventually end up using those tools if they come to Neos as it is a core part of the platform.  But that 1% who are looking for a development platform are not going to pick neos just as a development tool.  and A small portion of the one percent.  Like less than 50 people, you among them would look at neos as strictly a tool for development and not as a social platform that lets you build as a community.  FFS there is literally a monthly event centered around this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:27:48
content:
  I don't look at it strictly as a development platform. to the contrary, I think the interesting part about it is that it doesn't compartmentalize the development platform from the social platform. I know that 99% of people don't care about the abstract space it enables. They will care about the things that are made on top of it. E.G. The Metamove project. Those are the concrete applications that will sell the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:29:42
content:
  I think moving forward it's going to be important to foster new in-world communities outside of the homogenous existing userbase. Having a diverse in-world culture is part of what makes The Metaverse special and it will directly impact the new user onboarding process. A group of highly technical furry logix coders standing around in Sync Lounge isn't exactly the most welcoming day-1 experience and I this is something we can start solving now as a community, even while things are being sorted behind the scenes.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:30:26
content:
  No one cares if you use apache or nginx to serve your website. You might choose one or the other based on its characteristics, but the engine is invisable to the end user.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:37:03
edit_date: 2022-05-03 14:58:12
content:
  You act like you don't understand why I say the aspects that interest me in the platform won't sell it, then get confused when I explain what aspects I do think will sell it. XD Neos is the current best bet for the next computing paridigm. That won't sell it, just like Windows 95 making developer's life easier by introducing the direct x APIs didn't sell Windows 95.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:39:06
content:
  I get what he's saying - but the thing that makes Neos special is the dynamic and persistent malleability of the world from within the world. Developing for something like VRChat is very asynchronous and you don't have any level of real-time collaboration. Neos is an incredibly ambitious project because it's basically combining Unity and VRChat into a unified product, which is exactly what a user generated Metaverse should be.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:42:32
content:
  Probably because the aspects that you say interest you in the platform are exactly the ones I say are not the selling point in the first place.  And are not the point of the patform Then you go off a weird rant about disney and API's that had nothing to do with the conversation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:45:03
content:
  No. It's how I express myself and I'm not about to change it just to conform to your expectations of decorum.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 06:51:10
content:
  At the end of the day, Frooxius should have never severed ties with Karel because there is no clean or legal way to do so while also preserving the integrity of Neos. NCR has been a foundational part of the project for years and that's not a bell you can un-ring. They were wrong to start this coup and it's not going to end how they think it will.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 07:01:47
content:
  We'll see. It's bad that it's come to this, and i'm sort of not super hot on the future of the platform atm. But like. *shrug!* It's too cool of an idea not to do! We'll see something, hopefully in a way that doesn't make all of our work here a waste.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 07:03:46
content:
  I'm really hoping they settle out of court. Mediation was really what was necessary here, hopefully their lawyers are managing to give them some of that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 07:05:12
content:
  if it goes to court then like... honestly I don't see too much shaking out in the pro column for Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 07:10:57
content:
  I don't think either of them acted in a way that would justify piercing the corporate veil in terms of liability. Like, that's sort of the reason you incorporate. I don't think the Neos platform survives in the corporate divorce scenario, which I am sort of thinking is the way this will shake out if they don't settle out of court.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 07:22:51
content:
  Seems like they are both dug in quite deep, and for genuinely held beliefs. A large part of me respects that too much to imagine anything other than them sticking to their guns.


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 07:37:59
content:
  I think Decentraland is damaging the image of “the metaverse”

  https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2022/05/02/first-mover-asia-why-the-metaverse-is-a-potemkin-village/


type: message
date: 2022-05-03 08:17:19
content:
  They are Facebook, competitors… No friends with Elon Musk… Maybe Apple is trying to build a new kind of social network based in MR


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 03:40:10
edit_date: 2022-05-04 03:43:16
content:
  I don't think the direction or assumption is wrong, because I think companies are seeing the obvious stuff like generations spending more time behind avatars and 3d space being the next form of the explorable net, but I def agree that the way companies are going into it feels destined to fail (if theyre even being sincere)


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 03:41:31
content:
  but if they are being sincere in some weird way I guess Im usually on the side of wanting to see what will happen


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 08:06:44
edit_date: 2022-05-04 08:15:29
content:
  User generated content worlds go against Apple's ethos of having full control of every aspect the user experience. Their app store developer terms are borderline draconian and they heavily curate anything they didn't create in-house.


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 08:11:22
edit_date: 2022-05-04 08:15:43
content:
  An apple Metaverse would likely be so incredibly sterile, corporate, and difficult to contribute content to - that it would fail to gain traction or have any kind of meaningful revenue model. It's the raw and imperfect organic humanity that makes worlds like Neos special.


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 08:27:17
content:
  Yeah. Generally, I don't think walled garden approaches are going to go anywhere interesting and I don't see apple walking away from a paradigm that has put them on top of the world.


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 08:28:04
content:
  They will likely pivot once the concept has shown maturity though. They are generally pretty good about that :P


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 13:34:32
content:
  Because he promised to deal with my 3000usdt for half a year, I haven't been able to contact him recently


type: message
date: 2022-05-04 16:09:36
content:
  It makes sense. That’s why Apple will try to drawn us with AR. Consumable digital content we can pay for.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 02:57:55
content:
  I mean, regression is inevitable with a new dev team given the lack of unit tests XD Hell, we get them now even with the lead dev at the helm :P


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 03:50:32
content:
  Considering a lot of stuff has to be written from the ground up anyway including the render engine.  A new dev team isn't that much of a hurdle.   For Neos and NCR to have a future the platform needs to have Quest compatibility.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 04:30:34
edit_date: 2022-05-05 04:41:43
content:
  "crypto infested" - i.e., thousands of people who believed in the platform and gave millions in funding for the project


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 04:32:37
content:
  Just like there is no perfect pasta sauce only perfect pasta sauces.  The same goes for social VR.   There are people who will try them all and prefer Horizens.   That just boils down to preference.    And some that don't know a platform is what they are looking for until they try it


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 04:36:21
content:
  For all we know any developing could be on hold by attorneys advice until things get sorted.   It's not beneficial speculate


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 04:38:18
edit_date: 2022-05-05 04:40:23
content:
  It probably won't because I personally know these people and can tell you bonelab isn't a metaverse. It's just a game.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 04:56:19
content:
  The dumb in this statement in mind boggling.  Do you think Bezos personally hires every single person in this company or do you just not understand the core concept of a corporation?


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:01:36
content:
  And since froox insisted on being CTO and managing technical development it's his responsibility to take care of that hiring.   And ensuring that his "volunteers" are proper employed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:14:19
content:
  No I'm saying a CEO shouldn't be involved in the hiring process of people he is not directly governing.  It's the CTO's job to make sure there is a lead developer and and an organized team.   I would be wrong for me to comment further beyond that since I have no first hand knowledge of the agreement between the two regarding equity and c-level positions.   But traditionally it is the CTO that is directly in charge of ensuring their lead devs managers and junior devs all have NDAS and contracts.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:18:39
content:
  You do realize that's irrelevant, many start ups in the same field are established with wildly different distributions of equity and c-level job positions from start up to start up.  Being a tech start up or any kind of start up do not have a cookie cutter established way of incorporation.  Sometimes founders and CEO's have the less than 25 % equity because they sell their share to hire a board.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:22:43
content:
  Literally no good reason for you not to do that.   You can literally sell your wares any where you want and if you're not on multiple market places you're kind of a bad businessman when it comes to asset creation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:27:04
content:
  We all do want to see it do well.  But whinging in the telegram isn't going to aid that effort.  But in the mean time of you want to be involved in VRchat or alt space, I say go for it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:27:53
content:
  sorry you dont have the spine to stand up to an angry and dumb crowd on socials who werent going to play the damn game anyway


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:30:00
content:
  more like you'll just blame it on the ICO and cryptobros or something. This fantasy that if you scam and excise the crypto doners that everyone will flock to show support is not only dumb, its spineless


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:30:52
edit_date: 2022-05-05 05:32:13
content:
  I already addressed this.  Perhaps work a little on your reading comprehension.  I don't personally know what was in their articles of incorporation.  Froox has equity.  And having 50% equity makes getting fired tricky but not impossible.  Depending on that.  And it's not my place to say or speculate on.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:33:26
content:
  the shitty solirax corporate structure is kind of a joke that we're all forcing ourselves to take seriously


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:35:20
content:
  Only when there is a board that has equity.  The equity is split between two people.  But that has nothing. To do with their roles in the corporate structure.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 05:35:35
content:
  this is childish discord drama. Simple as that.. what makes it absurd is that a few thousand people are being dragged throigh the mud because some former roommates cant agree on which of their discord cuddlebuddies are allowed to be fired or something


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 06:28:16
content:
  I don't think it would have helped honestly. Karel is a virtual unknown because he doesn't really use the platform. I got to see him for all of 15 minutes during an award ceremony. Never got to hear him wax poetic about his vision for the project, or really ever see him out of PR mode. I think the only other staff members I can say that about are Outsider and Andrea.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 06:37:47
content:
  I think the CEO should be focused on the company surviving the challenges of real world, especially when they're struggling to keep the lights on


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 06:44:10
content:
  That's one way to look at it. Doesn't change the fact he had next to no presence in the playerbase community when this went down. The situation would not likely change unless he did. The truth is, keeping the lights on isn't a good rhetorical position when the playerbase feels like they've been covering the bill.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 06:48:25
content:
  Just watch the presentation on YouTube, that's available for all, or read the whitepaper if you don't yet know his vision for Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 06:49:14
content:
  That might be true in a larger company. This was never a large company. The level of compartmentalizing people seem to think should have been in place doesn't follow with the basic facts of Neos' existance.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 07:02:45
content:
  *shrug* yeah, it's pretty absurd. Though I'd argue it's moreso for the stage than the happenings. This sort of small project dynamic isn't terribly uncommon, but it got catapulted into the spotlight and put on a rhetorical pedistol with fortune 500s.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 12:08:47
edit_date: 2022-05-05 12:09:18
content:
  Whether he had a fursona or not id still not support him completely in the current state myself

  If he showed up on neos more.. Was more active in the community.. And didn't have fundamentally different visions from what neos is to alot of people who actually use it


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 12:21:27
content:
  I'm sorry but I can't help but laugh at the fact you're saying this yet also share like 20 nsfw groups with me.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 12:42:07
content:
  I just still think the most amusing thing is the horny furry in the neos chat complaining that horny furries play neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 12:43:07
content:
  Welp. He also turning new users away, hurting the platform as Karel has implemented a rushed site with only this TG channel clearly visible.
  So he is basicly hurting himself by killing growth.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 12:47:46
content:
  That happened to a friend too x.x
  Now it just gives you a 404 for some reason, before it worked out fine


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 13:21:37
edit_date: 2022-05-05 13:22:33
content:
  Hi @Pikey please I would refrain from such accusations if you can as these are serious allegations and Neos absolutely does not support such activities. Thank you.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 13:25:43
edit_date: 2022-05-05 13:25:50
content:
  There's practically nobody under 18 on neos at all even

  Most people go to Vrchat, but neos is very confusing to get into, younger people tend to be less motivated since there's not much of a reason


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 13:34:48
content:
  Neos is a metaverse - it's a social experience and still relatively new. All of the current companies/metaverses that are trying to make it happen as far as I know, have this problem to tackle - how to go about user safety, privacy and minimising risks of illegal behaviour - especially where vulnerable groups or children are concerned. So we have to find some ways of incentivising better behaviour and creating safer experience if you like. But it's something that is much bigger than Neos - as there are currently no real regulations and protective measures that could still comply with the need for confidentiality and privacy. It's something that will require a lot more research in my opinion but it will be extremely important if we are ever to go fully mainstream.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 13:41:06
content:
  Nobody is throwing nobody under the bus:). I don't see how safe metaverse and profitable product are mutually exclusive. If anything surely it is better for everyone to have a platform you can trust?


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 13:52:02
content:
  Unless people start shitting the bed here and shit post about how NCR is evil or making personal attacks on the people involved, they should have a right to speak here.  This is a telegram for NCR investors.  If they invested in NCR or hold any they should be here,


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 13:59:50
content:
  It also says Neos Credits at the top of the channel, but go ahead and argue with me while I am literally telling pikey to screw off in your defense


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 14:09:16
content:
  Absolutely planning on it as I now have a 3080ti. I’d be happy to send Karel and Andrea the source video file as well to publish on the official Neos YouTube channel if people are more comfortable with that vs it being on my personal channel. 💜


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 14:16:08
content:
  It's something I have been doing write ups on and getting research together for for months now.  From a liability perspective "Adult content is not-allowed"  is a pretty good way to go.  It doesn't tie your hands up with guidelines when actions need to be taken. Protects the company from liability and   And you can't really police what adults do consensually in private instances anyway. This is the path VRchat takes and reporting through the proper channels results in immediate action within minutes. 

   It's kind of a don't show and don't tell approach.  AS for Safety and and dealing with children, that is a question with multiple answers.   But just like in real life it relies on all adults taking responsibility and speaking up and taking action when they see something that is not kosher happening.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 14:17:56
content:
  Many user complain about sexual things I don't think users like video because it done by sexual person


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 15:16:53
content:
  what's wrong with people who care about things other people do in private? don't be a bad person by invading their privacy


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 19:11:53
content:
  Who are the officials of this project? I need to contact your CEO. He promised that my 3000usdt has not been given to me


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:02:17
content:
  I've heard it put well before, but I wouldn't expect the CEO of discord to be hanging out in it chatting with kids. And the whole point being made feels more like trying to justify exclusionary behavior. Or create problems that are artificial.


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:04:16
content:
  and it will never sit well with me that to gang up on some (who definitely has been involved in Neos growth) over issues like that


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:04:23
content:
  You know there were minting transactions aswell that slipped and Karel needed to be notified about them to process?


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:35:12
content:
  I see, maybe cause all transactions are public on the blockchain anyway, could it probably be this transaction? https://etherscan.io/tx/0x05098111df0e06088d80c6c00ddd71a26113f62a4f07d0ac4fd8e54c14a64e07


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:43:05
content:
  Well, I contacted their team and asked me to contact Karel, but he promised me several times and didn't return it to me until now


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:44:10
edit_date: 2022-05-05 20:44:23
content:
  Well, I am very sorry, but it is technically impossible to recover those funds. That money is effectively burned


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:44:52
edit_date: 2022-05-05 20:45:30
content:
  If you would get those funds back, that'd be out of curtesy and paid from their own money. But the USDT of that transaction are irrevocable


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:46:03
content:
  He told me I could get it back, but it was a little troublesome and needed to be handled with technology. On February 3, he told me to give it to me in another week, but I can't contact him until now


type: message
date: 2022-05-05 20:47:27
content:
  I'm very sorry for those bad news. It's the technical implications of how blockchains and especially contracts work


type: message
date: 2022-05-06 02:11:13
content:
  If NCR will go up by just a dollar or two I'll be happy. If it goes up to $4 or more I'll be ecstatic!


type: message
date: 2022-05-06 06:03:10
content:
  I don't know the details of the minting contract, and what happened to the funds in a technical sense


type: message
date: 2022-05-06 19:12:02
content:
  No need to be if you didn't ;) that's fine, maybe it is my ptsd from the big drop when the mocking campaign happened lol 🥲😅


type: message
date: 2022-05-07 02:44:20
edit_date: 2022-05-07 14:28:11
content:
  he's of course trying to get his kicks, just he's too sheepish to actually get some trolling in so it comes out weird


type: message
date: 2022-05-07 04:46:06
content:
  I've already apologized, I'm not trolling anybody.. Please refrain from making accusatory assumptions. All I wish is the best for NCR and Neos. Thank you


type: message
date: 2022-05-07 05:27:27
content:
  I see that software development is still at halt and there doesn’t seem to be updates from Karel as well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-07 19:01:08
content:
  Moving away from Unity is going to cause a lot more problems than it will solve imo - especially if they plan on integrating custom shader support.


type: message
date: 2022-05-07 19:03:48
content:
  Open source is a noble long-term goal but I think there are a lot of important foundational functions that need to be implemented before pushing for that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-07 19:13:05
content:
  Not sure what those problems would be, and it feels like Geenz has good ideas for the future of metaverse-graphics, wouldnt it be better to have more dynamic shaders than unity? There will be some problems no doubt, but I feel like we would be progressing here. 
  What kind of important short term graphics goals do you look towards?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:11:15
content:
  Patreon should be dropped entirely for a more cost efficient subscription service.  Also a majority of the rewards should be axed.  The focus should be more on providing Storage and Headless hosting options as the average Joe doesn't own their own server rack nor wants to go through the hassle of going to third party hosts to set one up.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:16:38
content:
  As far as time goes, maybe there's... plenty...because there's nothing else going on, hard to say.  Organization wise, not sure either, I imagine the organization of Neos code is already a scramble considering the amount of outside implementations/libraries there are. It's a little confusing when you mention "team" in terms of the graphics development, because as far as I understand, we have only Geenz working on that. I don't find the graphics hauling the rest of the devs down due to that. And like Firr, I do not understand what you are trying to say about solving issues/unity not at fault


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:18:15
content:
  I mostly would like a response from Tizzy, as I really want to know the details of their issues with moving away from unity.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:19:08
content:
  All I know is whoever thought SSAO, differed rendering, and the abysmal bloom ratio  in VR was a good idea shouldn't be involved in building the new render engine.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:34:51
content:
  Headlesses aren't 100% needed... but I'd be down for that. Would be neat to have services that just spin up headless servers like you can go to say Digital Ocean and request a web server for a few hours. Would be pretty snazzy


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:43:28
content:
  dealt with them on a professional manor myself years back and also had them poking other projects I was involved with. They're fairly solid


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:50:59
content:
  There's also one other issue with using a major engine as the backbone to a project, and that is feature delays. Say Oculus/Meta/Whoever releases their new headset and it has... controllable fans on it. The fans can be used to simulate wind or whatever. Well, for it to work, you need the functions for it to work with the engine... and some engines might not have the minimal stuff to even support the feature. So you have to wait on the engine to update so you can use the new feature.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:51:54
content:
  A lot of people in this chat have poor reading comprehension.   Sometimes I think it would be better if you wrote your responses in C#


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:55:30
content:
  oh absolutely. It's also arguable the other way around: why remake the wheel and you know, at some point, the bigger folks will already do that. I mean, we do live in a world where engines compete to have the latest and greatest, so developers win in the end anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 02:59:11
content:
  I think it boils down to neither Unity or Unreal are honestly 'metaverse' core engines, so to speak. For making games with predictable situations or loading some levels of custom content, they work great.
  But as people have pointed out, under the hood, it isn't ideal in the long run. Having bigger scope of everything requires an engine that, at the moment, really doesn't exist. It's not that Unity is bad, but I wouldn't rely on it to make an operating system, for example


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 03:03:34
content:
  yeah... especially with that last part. Some projects were outright put to rest when the framework they relied on removed a feature they were fully reliant on. But because they were using said framework for... everything, it made it difficult or even impossible to migrate to something else to keep the feature.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 03:08:31
content:
  @morolian Unity isn't really used for it's engine, just the rendering pipeline. The switch is a long term project, but why not switch to The Forge? It's a much more modern pipeline and has a lot of big players in its ecosystem.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 11:54:23
content:
  But how about we stop bitching and moaning at each other over who is or isn't a coder.   No one else in this chat cares about this take it to PM's


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 12:02:06
edit_date: 2022-05-08 12:13:03
content:
  I refuse to acknowledge anybody who thinks that removing Karel from his own company is a viable solution, something that is neither possible nor ethical.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 13:12:15
content:
  Yo I have 265.3125 ncr in my metamask and I kinda wanna get rid of it as I'm done with neos. Currently it's valued at $100.95 according to metamask and I'm willing to sell it all for $65

  Anyone interested?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 13:18:35
content:
  Not sure how much you would get out of it, but could try to sell it via metamask into eth and then out or on an exchange (Which I still havent done yet)


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 15:21:59
content:
  hate to see the place get toxic but when so many are getting scammed by a developer so callously while a community acts as a buffer to dehumanize those getting scammed, there's really no room for being cordial


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:05:32
content:
  I wouldn't call it a scam.  Everything regarding the Token was done in good faith on Karel's part.  They did not plan on a surge in value from Facebook connect 2021 driving the Metaverse into the public Zeitgeist and in front of investors.   They also didn't plan on the unfortunate recent events regarding internal strife.   The money raised from minting is still there ready to be used for platform development and operations.  It's just right at this moment nothing can really  be done until both Karel and Froox come to an agreement.   on how to move forward.  Just because you made an investment and the value of that investment went down, doesn't constitute a scam.    Also calling it is not good rhetoric to spread around.

  If Meta never made that announcements NCR would still be on a steady incline.   Scams are intentional take the money are run cases.  Which this clearly isn't


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:26:25
content:
  I respect your opinion and agree about many things, but the notion that they thought it was acceptable to attempt a sweeping under the rug of NCR as "third party" is in my opinion certainly a scam. This has nothing to do with the price imo.

  Has to do with they want all of the benefits of operating as a company (including wanting to vote out their CEO) yet none of the responsibilities of being a company, including their promise to support the token they sold for I don't know how many years.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:29:07
content:
  The rhetoric isn't mine, it's theirs of "NCR was Karel's doing, we don't have any responsibility" which doesn't make sense when they want to take control of the project and then establish a community of 24/7 smear discussions and misinformation spreaders to justify the defrauding of thousands


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:31:11
content:
  I misinterpreted what you meant by developers, since those people to my understanding are not employees or contractors but community volunteers who volunteered code and work for Froox.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:33:26
content:
  And its so widely known outside of Neos in the industry at this point that it isn't something they can even put on a resume


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:36:44
content:
  People who work in VR at many game studios, Microsoft WMR, Meta Reality labs, and HTC are fully aware of who they are.  It not a good thing for them


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:37:33
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:22:04
content:
  Reading back in the chatlogs on Discord it's pretty clear that the team was very much onboard with NCR before December. ProbablePrime even had a chart projecting where he saw the token heading in the future and they were all incredibly invested on a daily basis. I watched their entire tune change in real-time when Karel started embracing his role as CEO with executive decisions like bringing in Andrea as COO.

  The thing that really started this entire situation was the moment Karel announced that he had onboarded an outside developer to build the website, which was immediately met with pushback from the team - and ultimately they started strategically sinking NCR to edge Karel out like in typical furry project fashion. Unfortunately for them this isn't Second Life and real world law applies. The only thing they've managed to do is damage Neos and probably their own careers.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:39:05
content:
  Thats interesting atleast. I think they're counting on being able to spin it as "crypto bad" or "look what crypto did to our game" to external online discussion because there certainly are affinity groups who will believe anything anti crypto and would love their badguy narrative as is pretty obvious with their toe-sucking community


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:39:38
content:
  Oh absolutely , they might be able to apply for jobs with their Real life names but they def won't get anywhere placing Neos on their resume at this point.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:40:12
content:
  In the end it's not about their ideological aversion to crypto. They are leveraging anti-crypto rhetoric with the intention of using it to demonize Karel so they can take over the project.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:42:47
content:
  It's like imagine being a dev for AOL in the 90s and then doing something publicly toxic just as the dot.com boom starts so you end up black listed by every modern internet company for the next twenty years from, yahoo! to google and everything inbetween


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:44:40
content:
  what careers they just volunteers should just go away   no one will ever paid for volnuteering go back to fast food belong


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:46:20
content:
  I wouldn't know, I don't even know how supposedly impressive the quality of their work is. If I'm to believe the discord, everyone is a genius who has put in tremendous amounts of hard work. But 've learned to disregard literally everything the community says as it's always motivated bullshit


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:48:56
content:
  Well AOL is not that impressive either.  But being able put "metaverse" on your resume during a new industry boom with many companies looking to hire people with that experience.  But it not even about that, its that the events have become infamous that it would be hard to put the work they did on a resume for anything development related just because no one would hire people that behave that way


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:52:15
content:
  I wouldn't know about all that. The idea of them getting rewarded for such a malicious scam is offputting, but I can't help but imagine them being able to dress up the situation in a certain light... But I'm completely ignorant on tech hiring. I'm mostly interested in legal implications over all of this


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:52:20
content:
  I'm not really sure it matters for their hiring prospects. At least for any of the volunteers with code access, they are currently gainfully employed elsewhere in the field.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:52:27
content:
  Like imagine trying to gaslight a chat with 300 people who watched the 180 in attitude happen in real time


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:54:11
content:
  My god either you literally don't have reading comprehension or your purposefully being contrarian.   They didn't come out and Say "we are turning on NCR"   FIrst they were pro NCR then they were not.  Jesus.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:55:15
content:
  It's like talking to that kid in elementary school whose "uncle works for nintendo" so oblivious to the fact that everyone can smell their bullshit


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 16:56:00
content:
  I remember the change in attitude though it's fuzzy because for the whole time the community was pissing itself ovee crypto once crypto became a hot button issue, adding alot of noise


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:01:32
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:02:03
content:
  I've never been one not to take someone at their word when it comes to their own experience and motivations. They are generally truly the only authority on those maters.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:01:45
content:
  It would help if they would not be so cryptic about what actually took place, because what has been revealed seems very mild by my standards, yet we're supposed to pretend its earth shattering


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:02:44
content:
  the worst is apparently Karel telling Geenz that he was blackmailing him, which sounds definitely very rude but also built on misunderstandings possibly


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:05:02
content:
  ... this is a weird thing to wake up to, especially when this was supposed to be a more notable discussion on a platform...


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:06:45
content:
  That's how the fandom works. Some popufur (In this case Froox) puts out the cancel pheromone signal and everybody falls in line. It's standard furry operating procedure and Neos is no different.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:09:44
content:
  Everyone time a good discussion in good faith starts,   Its literally firr and ⦺ ⍝'irick'⊣'corwal'⍝ and few other people in here that come in and make disingenuous statements in bad faith.  Like between them all they are so condescending and smug, even Ghandi would want to punch them in the nose.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:10:56
content:
  I've been a furry since alt.fan.furry on usenet in the 1990s and I've seen how the fandom operates from a very inside-out perspective. This situation is incredibly typical and cliché for furry projects and I've seen it happen many times over the years with social groups, cons, software projects, websites, etc.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:12:45
content:
  Firr is never going to answer that question, because when you can't answer without being right you just ignore the question.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:13:23
content:
  Arguing is a colossal waste of time because in the end Karel will take back his platform and rebuild a new team of professionals that will make Neos everything it was supposed to be.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:16:01
content:
  The patience that Karel has extended to Frooxius has been more than generous but Neos is too valuable to allow this to continue as is ad infinitum.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:16:38
content:
  wHy sHoUlD I TeLl yOu pErSoNaL DeTaIlS? aLl yOu dO Is iNsUlT Me. lOl

  If you stop being a disingenuous douche I won't insult you.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:17:43
content:
  This is tedious. Tizzy, i enjoyed talking to you about cyberculture. I know you have the ability to engage with more nuance then this. What the heck is this conspiracy theory drum you are banging on? It's reductive and insulting to a complex and human tragedy. Not to mention just willfully alienating to anyone who hasn't dawned the simplistic black and white rehtoric of us vs them. The chat is devolving into a bunch of flag waving and bashing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:19:47
content:
  At the end of the day the situation that we are in is a direct result of an ego-driven power grab by Frooxius the volunteers. The furries disliked that Karel (A non-furry outsider) began issuing orders around December and the devaluation of NCR was the product of their very public character assassination campaign.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:20:16
content:
  It was close to 0.30$ before the buyback, and it is quickly heading down there again. Maybe a couple hours or days.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:20:29
content:
  it seems to me talking about how furries act, whether thats legit or not, is the most succinct way to illustrate how ugly things have gotten. It's hard to put into words when you feel a situation is so unfair like this


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:22:54
content:
  Not true; Karel was helpful in resolving a failed transaction shortly after an event in-world, which I used to buy additional haptic gear related to the event. Any issues I've had were based on current decisions, not just out of the blind


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:22:55
content:
  I've met plenty of dope furries, but there is a reason the furry fandom has a bad wrap.  And that is that the fandom on average definitely draws in more people like that


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:23:41
content:
  I agree that I've seen that kind of condecending exclusionary behavior in other cultures. It's just particularly ugly when its got this whole backdrop of justifying defrauding so many innocent shmucks.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:26:04
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:31:33
content:
  Oh hands down.  Every time I bring up Neos to someone who has at least tried it once, one of the reason is "I couldn't stand the talking to the furries there, or the furries there were dickish, stand offish, etc."


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:26:32
content:
  ...no. Most people don't get to see the financial side of the platform because of bugs or other issues regarding operations


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:27:31
content:
  Pretty much everything. If people don't even bother to stay on the platform long enough to notice that even has a currency system, then the financial side of the system doesn't even matter


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:27:36
content:
  Yeah sounds like I'm blaming the funders for being simple when really they're not at all at fault for this stupid drama. But I have to love the attitude from the team being like "hey its your fault. That's crypto!" after they caused the situation


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:28:26
content:
  Orc, i appreciate the attempt to rationalize the rehtorical device, but it's clearly fucking with discourse none the less. You've been mostly politic about your opinion, but I've watched just a shit ton of furry bashing and personal attacks over the last hour.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:29:55
content:
  i dOn't tHiNk yOu'vE EvEr aCtUaLlY TaLkEd tO Me sO HoW WoUlD YoU KnOw

  I literally spoken with you on here several times to my own mental anguish


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:30:39
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:32:39
content:
  And no one is just blaming it on "just that" hence the term "ONE OF THE"

  Apparently I have mis-typed that in my other comment, I edited and corrected it and withdraw this comment


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:32:48
edit_date: 2022-05-09 01:24:40
content:
  It's naïve to think that what is happening isn't directly impacted by the insular furry groupthink. It's unlikely we would be in this situation if the volunteers were a group of industry professionals.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:33:43
content:
  Then you are very naive. There are many factors that have resulted in some problems. If you honestly think it is strictly just one particular group, then that speaks volumes about how you actually are trying to handle the situation, namely how quick you are to blame one singular thing as the root of of all problems


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:33:46
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:33:54
content:
  Yeah industry professionals are not dumb enough to provide their skills for free as volunteers, nor are they dumb enough to publicly shit the bed like they did,


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:34:40
content:
  Neos has a lot of issues. Almost all platforms do. I'm not saying that Neos is some perfect snowflake, because it isn't.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:34:52
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:35:14
content:
  She isn't blaming a single thing, but she is absolutely right about how the "team" has conducted themselves.  Being a Neos "dev" has become a toxic prospect outside of Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:39:01
content:
  If the volunteers wanted to be reasonable they would be open to negotiations with Karel, but instead they've chosen an all-or-nothing approach which has put us in this 6 month long deadlock. This situation is 100% their doing and could have easily been remedied by reaching some sort of middle ground.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:39:20
content:
  You equally know that the same could be said the other way around. And before going after me for that one, that was the one that was actually in support, as I'd actually had a few people in world who were entirely in full support of NCR and other cryptocurrencies. I don't know if it's still up, but the blockchain museum was actually very neat


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:39:37
content:
  the gold names in discord were all in on, and still are, on the same rhetoric. "we don't want to have to deal with those people and the problems they bring anymore". when talking about THE VERY FUNDERS FOR THE PROJECT


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:40:22
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:40:29
content:
  or, if its a contentious point... the people who perceived themselves to be funding Neos or investing in it, whether those funds did or not, or would have if not for all this


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:40:25
content:
  Everything?  No not everything but that was definitely the end result that led to this whole debacle.  Those "volunteers" should have been more professionally managed directly by the CTO who really acts more like a lead developer than anything else.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:40:57
content:
  The hubris required to make claims like that about the CEO / co-founder of the company when the volunteers aren't even contracted employees is beyond delusional.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:42:40
edit_date: 2022-05-08 17:42:57
content:
  well it's the exclusionary behavior you keep talking about, how its a certain group of problematic people so its OK to defraud them and then come in here and gloat about it


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:44:17
content:
  and to be fair, although I like the cheap insults because I guess I'm raised on them and think theyre funny, I dont want to make it about furries. that is to say I dont want to engage in the same behavior


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:46:02
content:
  As long as people weren't calling the community aboriginals i was generally fine with them. Crypto-adjacent folks got the short end of the stick being that the crypto boom brought in the unwashed and weirdly racist masses.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:47:10
content:
  When I say furries I am pretty much talking about that team and their hardcore defenders I talk to Furry users in Neos on the weekly who think they are shitheads.  This is why she says the word Cabal, becuase its literally a  small group of people who are united in some close proximity to promote their private views or interests


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:50:32
content:
  Calling the community aboriginals. E.G. "those dumb (toned down) aboriginals voting against [ending the ico/staking/burning]" There are some let's say mildly problematic colonial implications there.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:50:55
content:
  The anti-Karel contingent actively contributed to creating negative sentiment and a panic sell situation that resulted in NCR losing almost half a billion dollars in value - and then proceeded to gloat about it. These aren't fake numbers in a video game - we're talking about a catastrophic loss of real world value followed by demands for the CEO to step down from his own company. I think it's reasonable for investors to be upset, and it's why I will continue supporting Karel and Andrea.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:51:59
content:
  Many of them can barely speak English and they're probably not very well educated. Not that it justifies how ugly they act but.. imo they hurt our grievances more than helping them so I guess it evens out


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 17:57:25
content:
  I saw three in my engagement. As in three separate users who would use it frequently. Which was just weird to me because I don't usually see aboriginal used in that context. It had me thinking it was either new *Chan culture vernacular or otherwise noteworthy as a specific linguistic quirk (e.g. machine translating something like 'natives' to 'aboriginals'). The first person who said it had a Mandrin name, but the other two were typical handles.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 18:00:48
content:
  Uh. It's just the incidents that are most memorable to me because of their strangeness. Plus my point was literally that these incidents stacked the deck in terms of public perception to crypto because of just the sheer numbers of new people, not inherent commentary on crypto-adjacent folks.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 18:02:51
content:
  Just like some furries public behavior and social ineptitude does the same.  I.e. not compartmentalizing aspects of their particular brand of fandom from their professional identity


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 18:03:21
content:
  Anyway look forward to slinging mud at each other again in the future, but I have to get ready for my Mother's day plans


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 18:04:14
content:
  I've moved beyond trying to reason with the people in Discord. They want Karel and NCR gone - and neither of those are on the table as options. They've created a us vs them situation with their inability to find common ground.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 18:04:55
content:
  Sure. People would likely draw the same lines if there was a massive influx of furries into a small NFT discord who mostly ignored the server norms.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 18:18:16
edit_date: 2022-05-08 18:19:04
content:
  I'm betting thats a large factor, but I think an unstated by large element is that greater online discourse on crypto among younger people is a shitshow... so here comes the people you despise coming into the community and I dont think any of them could just keep it in their pants and let them be contained to a channel


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 18:19:27
edit_date: 2022-05-08 18:19:35
content:
  Does this mean we wont be getting a response to what some asked about future graphics updates? I'm trying to understand what the issues are, but you dropped by with a paragraph of undetailed claims


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 19:28:34
edit_date: 2022-05-08 19:36:22
content:
  There are definitely people who don't care about the circumstances and just want NCR gone. But you look at the history of some of the more recently inflammatory posters and there is a different story. BuisnessLawyer was still accepting NCR for his work and paying in NCR through this year. Hell, i bought his series with NCR in March. 

  A lot of the long term players are also long term NCR holders. The most vocal about the situation, are talking more from feeling betrayed. It's hard to argue that we didn't get pump and dumped. I'm still sitting on ~1.7k NCR that's a pretty sizable reminder of that :P Not to mention a bunch of CDFT that i doubt I'll ever see paid out at this rate. A large number of those voices were the NCR economy in NEOS. Even the small one we had is gone now.

  And like, that is entirely because NCR got too big for its own good. All the safeguards broke and it crashed and burned. No one will accept it anymore even for the novelty, even though it's worth more than when we actually did stuff with it.

  So it goes. I don't blame anyone for the collapse of our tidepool NCR ecosystem. I instead blame the inexperienced design of some amateur finance and the bad luck of being discovered too early to bandaid.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 20:53:57
content:
  To follow up with this, I had tried selling NCR back when it was much lower in value back then, just to improve my experience with the system. Even with the lost amount (RIP ~800 NCR) and some given to friends so they can have larger storage space, I still have a sizable amount. Hell, I even still have tokens from my old job back when I did work on a blockchain based system. Saying a party is strictly against NCR, when many of us have been actively using it long before the recent events, doesn't add up.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:13:59
content:
  Whatever you guys say. I guess I'm supposed to pretend that for months and well before Froox thought it was okay to tell NCR holders that they were up for being dropped into Karel's lap, there wasn't pointless ideological vitriol begging for the crypto element to be removed, and plenty of mod interaction with those notions, creating whole "brainstorming ways to remove NCR" threads as if they weren't passive attacks on people's financial wellbeing at that point


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:14:55
content:
  I can atleast admit or agree it's more nuanced than that and maybe some of those individuals we're okay with the thought of a decentralzed currency inside Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:17:19
content:
  and it was obvious that many of the voices were just friends of the devs and their opinions were being taken as the "true" opinions of the goldnames.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:18:42
content:
  Not once did they ever voice something in the last 6 months like "listen, NCR is a part of Neos and we just have to accept it" or anything positive like that during the past 6 months that I ever witnessed. Instead it was more them constantly offering legitimacy to voices that wanted to fuck over the funders


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:21:40
content:
  Id certainly agree that its not so black and white, but it's more that one side was treated like an unwanted, dirty side effect (that they mostly seemed to benefit from personally) than something legitimately worth defending, and all that came to a very obvious and predictable statement on March 4th that I still feel was incredibly damaging, needlessly so, to those funders.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:22:35
content:
  And for what little it's worth I care so little about my pittance pf NCR, which is still well in profit anyway, but its the principle I just can't stand to see


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:26:00
content:
  I still, even now, don't understand why NCR holders needed to be pulled into this drama anyway other than maybe the team is spiteful or isn't willing to adopt them as a hassle... which flies against the notion constantly being pushed that Karel does nothing for the project


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:27:46
content:
  in this environment it'll be at worse spun as crypto's fault. The intricacies and details don't matter. At most it'll end up on the "web3isgoinggreat" website in some massively slanted article


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:28:09
content:
  They want nothing less then Karel to be put in jail. That is how much they hate him. They regularly post about it in the discord.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:35:54
content:
  So is it true that Geenz is considering making his rendering engine he was originally making for neos open source? If that is true, then wouldn't that be an indicator that litigation is not going in the volunteers favor?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:42:32
edit_date: 2022-05-08 22:42:45
content:
  why don't we check the times? When did his selling occure on the chart? and when did Froox's annoucement to make NCR third party come? and when did the price dump occure?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:45:16
content:
  there's a thing called being "opportunistic" specially when youre wanting to subvert your cofounder and cause financial damage


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:46:26
content:
  Isnt it? because the price was going up or was relatively stable while this person was supposedly dumping


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:48:41
edit_date: 2022-05-08 22:49:04
content:
  there's plenty of things you can lay at his feet, but the fact that no one is willing to lay a single instance of reckless behavior at Froox's feet says alot about the bias we must constantly wade through here and there.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:49:59
content:
  like everyone? Funny this person you like to cite waited to do his REAL selling only after Froox made his 6PM announcement


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:54:38
content:
  freaking out huh? You were trying to say this person caused the March 4 dump, and by extension that being Karel's fault


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:56:41
content:
  Can you show price backing up your statement? All youre really doing (besides moving the goalpost) is making actions look more and more collusive by the community and the damage slandering a cofounder did while helping absolutely no one


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:57:11
edit_date: 2022-05-09 03:12:17
content:
  The volunteers have created such a devout group of furry zealots around their anti-Karel crusade that nobody on that side is willing to concede or allow for rational nuance/negotiation. Make no mistake, this is a power grab and they will do and say anything if it means they are able to take control of the platform without Karel and NCR involved.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:59:03
content:
  Froox says he had the whitepaper for approval for somewhere around a day before it was published. So its rushed?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 22:59:53
content:
  Sounds like Karel gives a shit about the holders where Froox sees them as acceptable collateral damage


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:03:26
content:
  if it was a mistake, why did it need to result in a financially damaging statement from Froox? Isn't it so nice that you can act without responsibility and then point the finger to someone else when it causes pain? Thats not at all what we call "oppertunistic" is it?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:04:10
content:
  we've delt with your shitty rhetoric for well enough time. Isn't it a pain to get lumped into a group and made fun of?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:06:48
edit_date: 2022-05-09 03:14:01
content:
  Rhetoric sucks huh? Maybe if there were mods who actually prevented things from falling into name-calling pettiness over on the discord and... oh hi Cyro.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:08:14
edit_date: 2022-05-09 03:15:00
content:
  In the real world of finance, company executives have an obligation to create and maintain value for shareholders. Karel has been acting in the interest of those who believed in the project and supported it financially as a CEO of a corporation typically would - unlike the unrelenting sociopathic dismissal and even celebration of the loss of value from the Discord zealots. People in this chat have a right to be upset.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:10:00
content:
  and these guys seem to not understand that the devs being dismissive to their own token is something holders have observed for months in the chat.. and they don't seem to understand how that has an effect on price


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:10:02
content:
  The ICO was the entire capital raise mechanism and both Froox and Karel agreed on this early on to avoid giving up autonomy to venture capitalists with large equity stakes.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:11:55
edit_date: 2022-05-08 23:12:49
content:
  Maybe we arent, but one of the cofounders seems to appreciate us as if we were. Are we supposed to just take free money and tell people to fuck off "oh um, sorry sweety, you dont have any rights. Thats crypto!" like theyve been trying to say with glee before shit got alittle more serious


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:13:09
content:
  NCR might not be Nasdaq listed or subject to SEC regulation but people gave Neos a vote of confidence with their money with the hope that it would support the growth of the platform and their money along with it. That sounds like an investment to me.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:13:59
content:
  we're talking about the March 4th announcement dump, of which price has yet to recover to those levels (around $1)


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:16:38
content:
  And this is the unhinged meme that the furries keep repeating to justify the catastrophic loss of value. It doesn't mean it's ethical or right to sink the value.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:17:29
content:
  It did, early on when Karel posted the new whitepaper. I dont know if buybacks were involved too. But later that same day the price has its single largest percentage drop after Froox made a public announcement denoucing the whitepaper using his signature and stated that hed been trying to abandon NCR as a third party token that they would wash their hands of.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:19:24
content:
  this whole argument is trying to bury my pointing that out whole trying to lay blame for the dump at Karel's feet.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:20:15
content:
  3rd party NCR is a euphemism for soft deprecating NCR entirely because at that point it would have absolutely no relevancy to the platform. What gives NCR value is the proprietary nature of it in relation to the Neos platform and eventual marketplace. It's not an option, and according to Karel is never happening.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:21:20
content:
  Heh, this is what we mean by the childish behavior of the devs, where they have no respnsibility as long as they can point a finger at Karel and then behave maliciously. And we're tired of this childish bullshit.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:22:20
content:
  we know, but yet even still we have to endure constant attempts at trying to gaslight people into commiting financial suicide so that Froox and his friends don't have to do some extra work.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:23:48
content:
  well its partly to blame. Kulza was asserting that the March 4 dump was caused by some furry dumping in protest of Karel... when we proved that it didnt have much affect on price.


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:24:51
content:
  I could accept that it mattered for sure, but the intent is to mask Froox's intentionally reckless behavior as not his fault


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:26:18
content:
  The thing is this just proves my point... Dogmatically we are not allowed to lay even one single act of recklessness at Froox's feet...


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:32:32
content:
  I may be wrong about the intent, I do believe, and I think youd agree, part pf the aim is to use this misstep to undermine Karel


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:33:55
content:
  And the percentage difference was huge... The percentage difference that day is masked by the full depth of the chart


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:35:25
content:
  I could be wrong about that last part, but can you find another day NCR's price fell by some 70 or so % in a single day?


type: message
date: 2022-05-08 23:42:47
content:
  Using USD value is what is misleading, numberwise... Percentage is the only pure way to look at it like GODDAMN


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:03:41
edit_date: 2022-05-09 00:04:24
content:
  when the value shrinks heavily the percentages stop mattering as a perspective as much usually to the individual


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:09:13
content:
  The NCR/ETH chart doesn't actually look too bad. With all the price craziness in crypto right now I think it is going to be best for my mental health to value NCR in


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:19:48
content:
  The prices were going up before meta made their announcement. The prices have gone down lower than they were before meta's announcement. But, the NCR / ETH chart is looking like it could maybe be quite hopeful if we get into a bear market for cryptocurrency in general. NCR looks like it could outperform ETH in a crypto bear market.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:21:35
content:
  "metaverse" tokens were going up steadt before, NCR actually lagged behind other tokens in the category actually


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:24:36
content:
  Not entirely a scam, but it was dishonest and as I have warned... Any more mis-steps by the team here are likely to anger the SEC. They are kind of obligated by this point to keep it as a 1st party option and deliver on the roadmap they provided. That doesn't mean they can't move away from it, it just means they have to move away from it tactfully in a way that will not hurt investors, and making sure they fulfil their obligations.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:41:12
content:
  Lots of pro-crypto furries here who can verify to themselves that they have indeed seen the team turn around and take on an anti-NCR stance having previously been supportive. 

  Most of the furries I know from Neos were also very pro-crypto and pro-ncr. Sucks to see all the disappointment and hurt in what is probably a larger but less vocal portion of the community


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:46:21
content:
  I mean ask me anything because I'm taking multiple viewpoints on these issues. And I wish both Froox and Karel the best and fully support their work while also being very openly critical of both their actions, in good faith to wanting to see things go well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:48:51
content:
  And in my constructive critique coming from a professional perspective I hope I am still viable to be part of that team


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:54:33
content:
  It is easy to become mad in this issue because you have to understand real people with real lives have suffered as a result of this and anyone who appears to side with a portion of the community who has nothing to lose dehumanises them and makes them feel like there is a coordinated attack on their financial wellbeing justified by "you made an investment and lost"

  You have to understand something here. Take a moment to reflect on the fact that you are consciously aware of having this conversation. You have your own struggles, worries and hardships. Your own difficulties to face. Your life is complex and full of unfolding events you experience as a living person.

  Everyone in this chat is the same. Imagine that they with their own complex lives are experiencing what you experience as you sit at your screen talking to them. Conscious awareness and a complex past and present unfolding to go with it. But on the other end as they sit at their screen talking to you.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 00:55:51
content:
  Now imagine that a group of people part of the government of your country suddenly started trying to cut off your national currency and the population all became politicised and started bashing the national dollar and your money became worthless.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:01:27
content:
  There are deep politics to this issue and real people have had their financial wellbeings directly hurt by people who they thought had their best interests at heart but totally ignored and invalidated those interests. 

  I imagine they feel just as hurt by the vocal part of the Community and the Neos team, just as helpless and powerless as everyone who was not a trump fan felt as trump was being elected, and feel just as strongly that their best interests are being attacked.

  So you will have to excuse them if they act salty towards someone expressing critical sentiment that appears to follow the mentality of the same group they feel is attacking their personal wellbeing. 

  People are affected and hurt by this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:03:23
content:
  Yes because Ethereum has fallen significantly.

  Please for the sake of your mental health if you are going to look at charts look at the NCR / ETH chart not the NCR / USD chart


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:07:39
content:
  Remember NCR is based in Ethereum so the NCR / ETH chart matters more, and Ethereum is guarunteed to go up in USD, so watch for the price action in NCR / ETH if you are looking for an opportunity to salvage your dollars, ETH is probably going into a bear market this year or next year which presents a powerful opportunity for NCR to gain traction. 

  I'm not a financial advisor but buying the ETH dip that will come, using NCR, is probably going to be advantageous.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:11:37
content:
  I feel like we won't see any new team members until after the legal battle has concluded but I have hope that after the storm things will start to improve in one way or another


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:17:43
content:
  You seem to think that a furry cannot be an industry professional. It's just that industry professionals are professional enough to be aware that it is generally best to seperate their furry persona from their professional career so you don't even realize that they are a furry as well as an industry professional


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:20:03
content:
  Let's not point fingers at furries please. You talk of being an industry professional, please don't take this the wrong way as I have only the best intentions, but aren't you a fursuit maker? It is probably unwise as a professional to point fingers in a heated and quite political issue, towards your own customer base.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:22:18
content:
  $NCR is nothing without Neos. Don't forget that there is a functional platform which $NCR is based around.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:23:06
content:
  No one has to answer. The important thing is that what I am saying is visible. People can read it. And think.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:29:30
content:
  Fact is, for $NCR to succeed, Neos needs developers. What would be the best outcome here is that Neos continue to be developed and more industry professionals are taken on board who are solely focussed on the work.

  Plenty of development needs to go into Neos for $NCR to reach its true potential. 

  And they need an actual marketting strategy also. They need ways to generate revenue on the platform. And if they channel that revenue through $NCR, good things will happen. 

  If they do not seek to generate revenue, the platform will outgrow its financial means, and then it will be a bubble, and the platform will collapse, and the token will collapse.

  Sometimes you actually need to focus on creating profit, which is usually not used primarily to benefit the customer, but it can be used that way, and should be used that way, and is required in order to provide the best experience for the users. 

  Luckily I know a thing or two about creating profits, while maintaining strong empathy for the users and a working knowledge of how to create a positive experience, and when the focus is on what is best for the customer, and profits are being made, that naturally has very positive economic outcomes ^^


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:34:56
content:
  Going on a knowledge of what has been said in public statements and what has been said in the NCR section of the Neos Discord, what Tizzy says would appear to be the case.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:41:27
edit_date: 2022-05-09 01:41:54
content:
  I said Neos needs a good team.

  There are good developers in the team who have done good work building the infrastructure of Neos itself. Frooxius and Geenz especially. Frooxius practically built all of Neos by hand. Which is a fact which cannot be ignored.

  I am saying they need to take on more professionals who are able to handle the more professional aspects of running a business and creating a platform. 

  Where is the marketing guy? Where is the corporate management structure? Etc. 

  Just saying, hiring someone with skills in multiple fields including the more corporate fields, as well as the more development focused fields, who has a solid marketing strategy and is interested in seeing both Neos and $NCR thrive... Would be advantageous. 

  I should send you my resume Karel :)


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:43:42
content:
  It isn't a furry problem, there are numerous problems, but being furry isn't one of them.

  What I said was that professionals keep their furry life and their professional life seperate.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:47:59
content:
  In this case, the CTO who does not have a working knowledge of internal management or corporate affairs might have been best to hire an assistant with technical skills in the relevant fields but also has a working knowledge of managing a project and its team members and conducting corporate affairs in a professional manner that is going to be advantageous for the platform and promote its longeivity and success... 

  And offloaded the management tasks that a CTO is normally responsible for to that person, as an executive assistant.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:50:18
content:
  Their marketting strategy is lacking. I'm not saying it's bad. But it is lacking and it requires more substance to it that comes from a professional knowledge of the art of creating profits. 

  Which I would hope will be used mostly for the purpose of growing the platform in a way that is good for its users and benefits them as in the long term, that benefits both the company and its customers.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:51:47
content:
  Sorry but he just doesn't have the relevant skills, it's not only about experience, it's also about the mentality that is applied to putting knowledge into practice and Frooxius just is not interested in the more economic, corporate aspects of things.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 01:57:36
content:
  Correct, that's why the primary focus ought to be on making the platform a more user friendly experience with tools and ui features that are streamlined and designed to simplify the process of getting into Neos and setting yourself up to get up and running using the platform for its most common use case.

  Things need to be uncluttered and de-complicated. The advanced features should be left in, but they need a higher level layer where things are simple and easy to use if you are a new user with no technical experience using development platforms and you just want to play it as if it were VRchat.

  Neos has potential here with its built in engine because it can get the leg up on VRchat since you need to do stuff in unity to get up and running in VRchat which is complicated for most users, but VRchat's advantage is that you can have other people do the Unity stuff for you.

  Neos can be so much more simple because if they tweaked things a bit, and I suggested this to probable prime, you could have an avatar system that is much easier to use, since right now it is too easy to mess the process up and you can't get good working previews, and it is entirely missing automation that can result in an easier user experience.

  But I'm getting sidetracked from the primary focus and drifting more towards something that still requires a little bit of setup when ultimately, the process of getting started in neos should be as simple as humanly possible.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:01:16
content:
  All I'm saying is that they need more Professionals like for example Frooxius hiring an Executive Assistant. 

  And the way in which Frooxius has approached things and many of the Team approached things is fundamentally unprofessional, with people in management positions who have a working knowledge of how to run a successful business professionally, many of the problems that have arisen would not occur.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:04:47
content:
  I know and I have said this in the past. It is more of a competitor with Unity than it is with VRchat but the fact is that there is a market for people looking for VRchat in Neos, there are eyes watching and new users being gained and lost and ready to be had. That demand can be filled by giving users looking to Neos for a VRchat like experience, as well as people looking to Neos for other reasons, an experience that gets them set up and ready to use it for basic use cases

  Fulfilling that part of the demand would be advantageous and as things move more towards creating a way for creators, designers, developers and the like to monetize their creations, that also gives them their customer base right there, instead of them having to try to sell only to other creators.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:05:46
content:
  It is a competitor to far more than VRC but it can be effective as an alternative and competitor to VRC and that's where a lot of the demand is that will benefit the people who wish to use Neos to its full potential as a Metaverse Engine


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:09:24
content:
  The mentor program is a band-aid fix. There are more fundamental things which are required. 

  And the common user should not even have to touch logix. 

  Of course in regards to that, that is more of an issue for creators to tackle, working with logix so that others do not have to, but again. Much needs to change to fulfill the needs of the most common use cases in as simple and user friendly a way as possible without requiring help from a mentor.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:13:04
content:
  Also as far as creation goes, that can be streamlined too. There are a lot of ways you could use a blender plugin for example, which they should do. Make an official blender plugin. But even that is a band-aid fix as it sort of violates the principle of being able to do everything within Neos. Luckily Blender is open source and perhaps with a Blender plugin and a reverse plugin to Neos, it might be possible to do something like running Blender into Neos, which is tricky, and will require some thought on how that might be done, but if you could have more interactability between the two platforms that brings us closer and closer to the Metaverse mindset, and the functionality of a Metaverse Engine.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:14:07
content:
  Y E S

  There is an inventory searcher, but that searches the whole of Neos rather than just your own inventory. And it doesn't always work, updates break it, sometimes it breaks for no reason.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:26:41
content:
  Hmmm I wonder indeed. Could send coordinates maybe? The logix exists on Neos' part on plugging blender into Neos and editing at least the location of certain assets in real time in Neos, but I'm not sure how much there is that you can do with that, but for example...

  Oohhh... Yes... You could update models in Neos with a blender plugin and work on things in blender and click a button to have your model update in Neos, move assets around in Neos by sending data via websocket, but that's blender to Neos. Useful. But there should be a way to go both ways and do Neos to blender perhaps move some of the blender UI into Neos somehow or stream the VR view environment or... Something...

  That's almost an idea :V


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:29:03
content:
  Because if Neos is referencing and trying to grab a model file, looking for it every time it recieves an impulse over websocket and being told what model to grab via websocket and when you hit the button blender first export the model to the file being referenced... 

  But that doesn't fix the issue with textures and armature...


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:35:06
content:
  See THAT is some powerful functionality right there which is being underutilized and there is so much potential development that can be put in utilising that which can make Neos WAY more of a Metaverse Engine than it already is!!!


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:37:48
content:
  as powerful as the concept may be, the issue to remember is the practical use of it. If the 'outside' editor was made such that people were happy, then yes it'd be an improvement. The fact it is doable also is a bonus.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:42:02
content:
  I'm wondering how to improve the interactability between Blender and Neos.

  Ideally what I'd want is to run a VR instance of blender inside Neos with its own viewer (which is possible, see blender for artists, a fork of Blender) and tools allowing you to work with blender from within VR from within Neos...

  But for now, working just from blender and being able to easily port that into Neos and edit stuff that is in Neos from within Blender would be huge. 

  Probably what would be most ideal is having a way to simply plug the textures in automatically maybe have a Blender plugin that lets you work with Neos materials in blender.

  I dunno. There should be more interactability.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 02:58:30
content:
  Striking in protest of poor work conditions is well within the professional charter of the ACM and the IEEE.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 08:48:50
content:
  Specificity is key. They have signed group statements conveying their reasons and motivations for work stoppage. What are you calling unprofessional?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 08:53:54
content:
  That's perfectly fine, they have a right to go on strike

  What is not fine is the manner in which this was conducted and the inflammatory way in which their statements and communications were worded

  The result is an economic disaster and an attack, whether intentional or unintentional, on the health of the company and its reputation.

  Ask any high level professional and they will tell you that what they did was unprofessional, it's not so much the act of striking itself. It's the smaller details, which result in a large impact.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:04:46
content:
  If I were to go and do the same thing what I would have done is release the statement like this. Which is similar. But notice the differences.

  "We would like to appologise to our users for the absence of updates and we are aware many have been wondering why development has stopped and are becoming agitated.

  To re-assure you, we still have very dedicated intentions towards the success of the Neos platform, and we will resume development as soon as the underlying internal issues have been resolved.

  We have decided it is not within our best interests to tolerate the working conditions which we have been subjected to. This is nothing that threatens the Neos platform itself however it is having a negative impact on our emotional wellbeing, we feel that the behaviour towards us from the CEO is abusive and unacceptable, and we are unhappy with the management of our employment agreements, as many of us are volunteers, new contractors coming on board has created an environment of unfairness.

  There is much we have to discuss, but please be re-assured that these issues are being resolved and we are working to reach and agreement, we hope you will remain patient and forgive this little bump in our roadmap, which will continue in its deployment following negotiations, potentially with improvements towards it and a better, properly managed and organised structure.

  Thank you for your understanding and your patience."


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:11:11
content:
  Notice I did not say anything like "we don't have and never had any involvement with NCR, it's all karel's idea, we want him and NCR gone and we want to eject him from the company and graciously allow him to conduct his own business as a 3rd party we will have nothing to do with, also I have been living in his appartment for my work instead of being paid and we are having personal flatmate issues. We don't understand what he is doing with NCR concerning liquidity instead of paying us so we want nothing to do with it, here is a list of all the private documents he went and tampered with, without consulting us, here is a bunch of private corporate affairs which make Neos look bad" etc.

  Too much internal crap, personal issues, financially damaging statements etc.

  It's a mess. This is all to messy and should have been handled cleanly and professionally but instead the mess gets spilled all over twitter and discord.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:14:43
content:
  The only substant difference between this and the initial anouncement appears to be that you have omitted the portion of specific disavowel of Karel's words as representive of the team.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:24:44
content:
  Also instead of pointing too many fingers and doing a whole bunch of he said she said look he did this look he did that, and then on karel's side, the sweet innocent act bringing more personal crap into it and further adding inflammatory remarks, with the whole "I wasn't being unfair I fed you and clothed you" etc. 

  All that needs to be accomplished is.

  1. Appology
  2. Re-assurances
  3. Cold statement of the situation without personal issues and finger pointing attatched
  4. intentions

  So on and so forth. It's clean. It's neat. It doesn't make the company look bad and keeps the drama out of the public.

  What definitely should not have been included is all the financial stuff which serves to sew the seeds of doubt. seeds of doubt are not what you want to be planting in people's minds when they are already agitated and on edge. 

  Stuff that makes people doubt whether Neos is going to be able to keep itself together financially, whether or not their NCR will be rendered useless, whether or not they are going to get to see the expectations that were created be fulfilled regarding NCR which by this point is kind of obligated to deliver something at least partially resembling the outlined roadmap, instead of being completely shirked while the devs openly tell everyone "it's not my problem, you lost your money, big deal, that's investing also this is not an investment, karel told you in the whitepaper" 

  It's all about damage control. You go on strike like this, you say you are having problems, there are going to be damages. It is your responsibility to the people who gave you their hard earned money... To make sure that you control the damages and minimise losses, you need to make sure that such internal business has as little of an impact on the health of the company as possible.

  But instead we get the shirking of responsibility for development of NCR features, total lack of empathy for the people who sustained heavy losses because they made NCR be involved, damaging statements that need not have been said.

  This was all very poorly handled.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:27:13
content:
  Let me point out I'm not on either side. I'm being critical but I am trying to be constructive. I simply wish for business to be handled more professionally in the future. It should not take an industry expert to see that the way in which this was done was highly unprofessional. Again, it isn't the act itself. They have a right to strike. That does not need to damage the company or create external drama.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:35:16
content:
  See if they had hired a professional to arrange corporate affairs, logistics, strategy and public relations with a systematic, tactful approach, such that would meet the standards expected of a business aligned to take a major role in the growth of the VR industry and become a major player...

  ...They could have had them review their statements and edit them and check to make sure the devs were all happy with the statement to be released... They could have made predictions of the logistical impact that the statement's wording and tone would have, checked it from a legal perspective making sure they didn't violate anything, making sure that the statement did not undermine the company, making sure it did not undermine the investors, and formatted it in such a way where it met professional standards and would quell fears in the community instead of enraging them and starting an angry mob.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:42:02
content:
  While they didn't violate any laws directly, the information given, the wording, and the intentions stated, are enough to get in the bad books of the SEC since, knowing the SEC, and having a professional understanding of their mentality and the way they operate, they would be all to eager to classify NCR as a security, and the SEC can basically invalidate certain disclaimers in the white paper which are not applicable to something that meets the profile they would classify as a security. 

  While hurting loyal investors and showing a total lack of empathy for them is bad, from a legal perspective, this was a massive blunder due to the way the SEC is going to look at this when they ultimately become involved. 

  Only reason I'm saying this is because it's basically too late now and their only option is to backpedal on some of their stated intentions, and to create re-assurances for investors who made an investment in what is a security whether the whitepaper tries to deny liability by saying it isn't, or not.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:44:59
content:
  The ultimate result in they undermine their own legal credability and give leverage to their opponent as they also escalate a legal battle they do not want to fight by this point when this could have all been resolved nicely without spilling the whole mess over twitter and discord and fuelling an angry mob on one side and a potential class action lawsuit on the other as they give investors reason to side with karel and sue the team.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:46:27
content:
  The disclosure of information on such a sensitive issue requires careful review and needs to follow careful guidelines and strategy and be structured flawlessly in a way that tries to re-assure the community and calm people's anxieties.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:48:08
content:
  That's why you always hear in the media things like "statement pending review" or "yet to be released" because they have a team of people specifically tasked with restructuring and rewording such things so that they do not cause unneccessary damage or undermine their own objective.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:49:28
content:
  They need to take days or weeks checking everything and re-checking it again making tweaks and edits and trying to refine the thing to be as flawless as possible. It is their professional responsibility.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 09:53:04
content:
  Informing stakeholders is an essential part of behaving responsibly in leadership roles. It's not disputed that the situation could be handled more cleanly. I take issue with the blanket claims of unprofessionalism. This is a small company, and Froox was forced to act outside his expertise to handle the PR fallout of a founder split. Which he did.

  They disclosed what the team determined to be the required information for the relevant stakeholders over what they identified as disinformation. You can disagree with their evaluation, but it is simply not the case that the behavior was unprofessional. Acting as a team for what they view as the interests of the project is pretty much what we expect.

  Additionally, as you have specifically indicated personal interest in taking a job in the team and are making a multivariate criticism of your peers I assume you are not acting outside your own specific competence in offering legal opinions and related statements of competence?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:05:56
content:
  It was a mess and was the wrong way to have handled it.

  Personally I'm just speaking off the top of my head for roughly half of what I say, the other half, I will be open about the fact that I am trying to speak tactfully on the fly, and communicate the message which has the intention of inspiring the team to make improvements, such as when I have given some of my more well-structured recommendations in regards to improvements that can be made to the UI or strategies which can be employed in marketting and creating more use-case in a very value driven way for the currency used in their marketplace, otherwise, my recommendations and constructive critique on the matter of current interest is half the picture, and covers a strategy from the business perspective, there my mentality is that of what will result in the best possible outcome and highlights what should have not been done and should not happen again and is a small taste of a complete strategy that would require days of careful drafting, review and editing, it is not legal advice, and if it were going to be used as such, would need to be reviewed by someone with a working knowledge of business law, rather than from my perspective of tactics, strategy, logistics and management.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:12:39
content:
  Working with a team to conduct a proper management strategy is of course a team based game, and in practice that may play out a little differently than open discussions which are often required to reach a result, and one's own personal opinions, which contribute to the mixing pot of a strategy devised by a team when open discussions have concluded and the strategy is fine tuned from multiple perspectives utilising all of the relevant information.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:14:27
content:
  Best I can tell it translates to "information contained herein is for entertainment (and personal development) purposes only" :)


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:18:28
content:
  Basically, I am saying it is more representative of the thought process than the final result and comes from a management strategy perspective, rather than a legal one.

  My main field is actually design strategy, and marketting strategy / logistics though, when it comes to the skills that could be applied here. That differs from ordinary design in that it is oriented at designing product features in a way meant to optimise the logistical outcome in the long term, taking into acount a holistic view of the way the design is going to impact the way things will unfold both in the way the product is used, will grow, and will create profits.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:23:32
content:
  If I don't do it with Neos for their software it will be with my other venture for which I have already been hired, for VR hardware design. It's all about streamlining things for long term strategy and predicting the way things will unfold technologically and economically and optimising every aspect of it so that it is future ready and will scale smoothly. 

  (Yes I intend to work two jobs it's 2022 who can blame me :V)


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:26:40
content:
  Karel revealing personal information about Frooxious was a direct response to him being dog piled and accused of horrible things by the community. Every bad thing you have heard about Karel I heard get rumored around before anyone made any posts. This is up to and including accusations of holding frooxious prisonor and forcing him to code. It is impossible to explain that rumor without revealing the nature of their relationship and other such personal details. Karel had a right to defend himself publicly. In fact he was forced to.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:27:08
content:
  I honestly don't understand your criticism on this front. We are not privy to the specific process that lead to the published statements, but we can at least assume each signer had input. Reaching a team consensus is usually a good (and hard) thing. The strategic landscape that decision exists in is why we seek for as wide a group of perspectives as we can to inform that decision, but like, there are 16 signatures there from pretty much all 'levels' of the organization. I'd say that's a pretty wide consulting group.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:31:57
content:
  That was more self-criticism

  Though as for the Neos team, honestly that's even worse because it makes the whole team look unprofessional. They should have been able to spot the flaws and been able to optimise the final draft of the statement. So they either made some bad decisions in the form of contributions or edits, or they just went along with it. Neither of which were particularly good decisions. 

  Also Robinhood has a point. While Karel's side could have also been handled more professionally, given the context, the result created by the Dev's statement did generally push Karel into making that statement whether it was the right decision or not.

  So again. A big mess spilled all over twitter and discord.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:32:37
content:
  Getting angry about Karel running a discord poll is also such a fucking red herring. It was just an excuse to get angry about crypto. Burn or stake, it really did not matter at all. Either would have been beneficial to everyone. And the majority of the people who got upset about the poll probably did not even understand what the terms meant.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:35:27
content:
  You have good ideas. Blender or github integration would be game changing. I want you on the team lol.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:40:46
content:
  If he had asked me I would have told him that it might be wise to connect staking with a system to allow content creators to advertise their goods, creating a way of advertising that can be integrated into the aesthetic of different worlds with different themes in the metaverse, which is something VR enthusiasts have been asking for, it is quite unobtrusive and makes ads fun so instead of instantly clicking away an annoying popup a user might actually choose to explore the world and see all the sites, including the well placed, aesthetic ads, which add to the overall ambience and make a world more immersive...

  Pegging staking to that would allow creators to secure better adspace and gain access to more than 1 design theme, or better design themes basing staking thresholds for unlocking based on how commonly a given design theme is incorporated into a world. That gives people incentive to buy NCR and keep it locked down in staking for as long as they want their goods in the marketplace or even services in the Metaverse to be known. Which would have a very positive impact on price. Which would create even more incentive for people to buy NCR. 

  Instead of burning fees, which might not be suitable here since there is a hard limit cap on the amount of NCR that can be minted... Fees could be used to incentivise people to include these aesthetic advertisements in their created worlds, which goes above and beyond the inventive to include them simply for the fact that they look good and add to the ambience and immersiveness of a world.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:41:42
content:
  It would be! I want me on the team too, I'd love to help realize the vision here and help to unlock the full potential of just how big Neos could be and what it could do.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:46:02
content:
  I think this would really add to the whole Metaverse vision and enrich the potential to have a complete Metaverse Economy with real world implications, creating an entirely new Industry untethered to an economy where AI continue to eat up people's Jobs... And FIAT currency along with the system it is a part of continues to show its flaws.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:47:55
content:
  That's one of the reasons I'm so upset about the hypothetical idea of shirking NCR. This could really be big and there is a lot of potential here when it is an actual metaverse we are talking about here.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:49:30
content:
  ^this guy. That is a use for staking I have never thought of. 

  Do you have expirance programming with crypto?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:53:22
content:
  Unfortunately I don't, I'm more design and tokenomics focussed there, I know a bit about blockchain technology but when it comes to the actual coding... It's on my list of things I'd like to learn but don't yet know. I'd love to be able to unlock my creative freedom to create some of the various ideas for cryptocurrencies of my own I have floating around.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:55:00
content:
  I'd like to be able to create an alternative to blockchain someday... An entirely new chain with a way of handling the ledger inspired by blockchain, and fulfilling the same philosophy, but in a more optimised way!


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 10:56:12
content:
  Just playing devils advocate here, but what position would you fill? Or would you just be the ideas guy?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:05:26
content:
  Well that depends on where I would be needed the most. I could fill one or more positions, design, tokenomics, advertising, management, PR, corporate strategy... I know a bit of coding too but not enough for that to be a primary position, more of a supplementary one to whatever other role I might be needed in. I have spent 9 years formulating my own business plans for a tech company, and in that time I have been trying to build a complete picture of every aspect of running a business, and the work of all its departments, so that I can lead one effectively and conduct its operations and strategy wherever I can, and understand what my team is doing and why and effectively lead those teams with a strong understanding in the specifics of their work, actively participating as well as leading. 

  Ideas and in depth design of them, as well as strategy and tactics are where I put my primary focus though.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:18:08
content:
  I have studied multiple fields in order to run a business just as anyone driven enough to success would do and imo is required in order to achieve the best possible outcome. So there are multiple positions I have the knowledge and in some cases, experience to fill.

  What I am qualified for in terms of official qualifications, is Mechanical Engineering, which has added to my experience in Design.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:19:14
content:
  You don't run a business with knowledge and experience in only one field and no knowledge of the complex reality of what it actually takes to run a successful business. You need to know what you are doing.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:20:02
content:
  The most successful business owners understand all the pieces and the ways in which they all fit together.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:30:08
edit_date: 2022-05-09 11:31:22
content:
  Not most successful, as in, most of the people who are successful, I mean THE most successful, which is a small percentage. Take Elon Musk, that is exactly what he does, building an understanding in most if not all of the various departments managing the various aspects of running a business. 

  Realistically, not every single area but at least most of them. 

  If you have Ideas, and you want to make them the best they can be, and you want to take those ideas and run with them to the very top. That is what you do. Business is competitive. There are millions of businesses most of them will only be small or medium sized ones, they will not go the kinds of places that the best of the best go. 

  If you want to climb up over the other businesses making products in direct competition with your target markets, you need to give yourself the advantage, because if you don't, much bigger companies with more money, more resources, more connections, bigger teams... Teams of teams even, all there trying to outhink you and outsmart you and make their product superior to yours the second you get your 2 minutes of fame by making a product that is transiently better than the industry leaders. 

  They will either one-up you and make instant improvements over your own design and outcompete you or they will buy you up and run you out of the industry with their vast pools of money.

  That's how it works.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:39:09
content:
  You think you can become an industry leader by designing a product that works better than everyone else? That is cheaper? More powerful? Can do more? 

  Wrong. 

  Industry leaders who already exist can one-up you reeeaaal fast if that is all that you do. So you have to be able to work with all of your teams effectively and understand what they are doing and why and apply your knowledge across multiple fields to design a product that is different. Not just some clone of the exact same thing with more generic features packed in at a lower cost with more power. That is a transient thing. It does not have staying power. 

  You need to have the knowledge to apply business strategy and make something unique and different, something new, something that hasn't been done, and you need to be ready to improve on that and apply, again, that business strategy, in order to understand how the game is going to play out, what kings to release, what aces to hide up your sleeve, and be able to make fast, strategic revisions based on a constantly evolving, adapting and growing industry that is not going to play nice with you.

  Otherwise, the winner is whoever has the biggest team with the most money.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:39:59
content:
  It is not easy to achieve success in such a competitive industry as the tech industry. You need to maximise your chances. And knowledge is power.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:41:46
content:
  Perhaps I should have mentioned that the tech company I seek to eventually create, I aim to make into an industry leader. That is why I try to learn as much about every aspect of the business as I can.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:42:55
content:
  Good design strategy, which comes from a complete understanding of the mechanics of the game as well as an even more complete understanding of the tech you're actually designing. You have to be able to build it yourself if you have to.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:48:11
content:
  Well Neos is software and I admit programming is an area where I could and will stand to improve.

  The business I studied for, but is still a long way in the making, will be a tech company. And hardware is something I can build myself. And I know enough about programming to make it at least work as a prototype. 

  Unfortunately, being able to build hardware is not relevant here, for Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:50:37
content:
  Fortunately having a fundamental understanding of programming, while not enough to do everything myself, means I understand how it is relevant in design, so understanding the software, I can design a product in a way that works well with the way the software operates and it means I can effectively communicate to a team of programming experts.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:52:01
content:
  Starting to see why understanding multiple fields is necessary to really excel? It's no use putting effort into designing something that is not optimised to work well and play nice with the software.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:54:51
edit_date: 2022-05-09 11:55:03
content:
  Yes that is very true, I never denied that. However, as a designer, it is better that you have a fundamental knowledge of those fields so you know how your design is going to affect the way those fields work together, and as a leader, it means that you are able to work well with the experts that you hire, because you are going to understand what they are doing, and collaborate with them based on that understanding.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 11:59:45
content:
  Depends how fast I can accumulate enough money to build a prototype, get patents, set up a website, register as a company, put together a publicity campaign, set up a kickstarter, reach the funding target, etc.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:02:57
content:
  Have you ever read a patent before? Yeah I'm going to need to build a prototype first in order to be able to go into 50 pages of detail.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:05:18
content:
  Sadly, living poor (only now finally starting to climb out of it) that is the reality. 

  The current economy does not make it easy to simply start. Let alone see it all through.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:06:46
content:
  Encompassing design is an admirable goal. Not sure I'd really want an auteur theory of entrepreneurship, there is enough hero worship there. But if that is your sought medium, a heartfelt good luck.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:23:53
content:
  However concerned you think I am with the Industry Leader Transformation, I assure you I'm more concerned with creating something meaningful, it's just a matter of how to get from A to B when the most meaningful designs are rather expensive to make. 

  That is why I'm channelling some of my Ideas through someone else's company which I have enough of a stake in where benefitting his company with my ideas is going to benefit me. It gives me an opportunity to grow by helping someone else to grow to the best of my ability.

  The most immediate design is a full body tracking system which works differently to everything else on the market or planned for the market currently, it uses newer technology that is not being utilised yet, in combination with some more traditional methods, which will unlock new ways of getting more accurate tracking data unbound from things like base stations, similarly to how slime trackers work, but with different technology which is better suited for the applications and does not have the same flaws.

  This is the framework which will provide a standalone scaffolding for the boss's Idea, which is a full body haptic suit made for affordability which also utilises some newer technologies in a different way to what is currently being done.

  This compliments his vision of providing the technology that will bring the Metaverse to life in a way similar to ready player one, and using the technology for solutions to real world problems, like for example as a tool in rehabilitation for people suffering from disabilities.

  This is where my other idea comes in which I won't go into as much detail with yet, but it will be a headset designed explicitly for medical uses, working with current research into how VR can be used to heal people with disabilities, neurological disorders and mental illness, etc. And optimising the headset to be applied to that research.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:25:46
content:
  The headset, while designed for medical purposes, will still be available to consumers of course. You will be able to game on it :V


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:36:54
content:
  I guess some people just don't care about the potential of VR technology to cure real world diseases. That or they simply can't read.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:42:46
content:
  Still not a waste of time so long as the right people read what I have said ^^

  Every word has its purpose even if directly towards a ghost troll

  Send out enough ripples and eventually you will make waves.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:47:34
content:
  That's Alien Elon thank you! Furries are anthromorphised wild animals, Aliens aren't anthromorphised anything, they are what they are, as they are, and probably do Technology better than Humans do

  Is a furry still a furry if they are a multiplanetary civilization with advanced technology of unimaginable proportions with no real world feral counterpart?

  So if you put a toupe on a little green man from space, are they then a furry? Is that considered a fursuit? What about shapeshifting lizard illuminati... Are they scalies?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:50:27
content:
  Does it matter if I like space Aliens adapted for cold climates? Call it whatever you will. Anything even remotely furry is entirely seperate from my professional life. As it should be.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:52:37
content:
  Sir, I draw Aliens in my spare time and create fictional worlds with their own canon which they exist in. And most aliens in the canon do in fact have no fur and actually resemble humans.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:55:17
content:
  No, Aliens do not benefit NCR.

  However, if you read here, immersive advertising integrated with NCR staking would be very good for NCR


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 12:57:40
content:
  Robinhood did. 

  Are you interested in making money because if you're not then you should sell all your NCR right now and not bother to read or participate in any discussion that could result in pumping its value.

  The future, if implemented correctly, is very bright and full of lots of money

  But if you're not interested you're not interested. Someone else will be happy to take that opportunity off your hands :)


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:01:01
content:
  It speaks volumes about your own self if you talk about pumping the value of NCR but are unprepared to read into the discussion that can make that happen.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:03:17
content:
  Word of advise, maybe investing is not for you. You clearly have stake in NCR. If you were wise you would be actively following and participating in the discussion surrounding it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:04:13
content:
  For someone so knowledge about metaverse you spend many time in here begging for administration to notice


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:06:02
content:
  Except the right people have seen what I have to say by this point. I can only wait and see if they will implement any of my suggestions in order to create success for Neos and NCR ^^


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:07:14
content:
  I am simply telling you that if you go blindly throwing your money around into altcoins saying nothing but "pump pump pump, furries don't pump" then you are going to lose your money. 

  If a coin is failing, you fix it by reading, participating in discussion, and getting your ideas noticed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:11:04
content:
  I didn't even know I was on the team but apparently my Art belongs to them, so I guess I made it! :D


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:12:26
content:
  Sure, where do you want me to send you? I can post you to mexico if you want, do you have a box your size?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:14:45
content:
  I'm interested in the value to raise cause of its utility, not because it is being pumped. Cause pumping is artificially raising the price way above its actual value, which I frown upon


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:16:46
content:
  I propose some actual utility with my suggestion on implementing the type of advertising, integrated with staking, for content creators in the marketplace to have a creative way of advertising their product in a way that VR enthusiasts actually state they would enjoy


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:18:15
content:
  why would anyone use NCR on a marketplace, if it is open for other currencies? Or why would anyone use the marketplace built on NCR, if there's another marketplace where you can pay in fiat?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:18:53
content:
  Doesn't matter what currency they use if NCR is the metric used via staking for people to secure advertising space


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:19:51
content:
  Blockchain technology means its easy to validate how many themes at what kind of tier a content creator has secured for their promotional material


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:20:18
content:
  that'd mean that some thing, for example advertizing space, was exclusive to NCR only, which I doubt would happen


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:21:00
content:
  The way things are developing the move seems to be going away from Karel. And as Karel controls NCR, as a consequence of that also away from NCR


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:24:49
content:
  Then I need to make other team members see that for the platform to survive, for it to have scalability, and for them to be able to consistently upgrade the technology infrastructure it is going to need as well as keep their paychecks nice and high, and expand the size of their team and keep their paychecks nice and high, they are going to need to have a strategy for incorporating advertising one way or another.

  Probable prime is a miss. Hopefully other team members will be more open to the idea that they need a way to secure their paychecks as Neos grows and expands and keep the platform stable as its number of users grow


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:28:33
content:
  I said I studied several things. This is 2022 you do not need to study at a university to be able to study anymore. There is a huge study of scholarly articles, free educational materials, all kinds of stuff allowing you to study anything you like. 

  Formally, I studied Mechanical Engineering and Design.

  On my own, I studied business management, marketting, corporate strategy, and a whole bunch of stuff pertaining to running a successful business and making good technology and efficient, effective designs, predicting how things will play out, etc. I can't really quantify under any specific label.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:29:36
content:
  Staking for higher tier self promotion access would stabilize the value. Allow it to perhaps have a consistent, stale incline.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:33:46
content:
  Not everyone is going to wish to secure advertising space that way. This is different to traditional staking in that instead of sharing in the fees, the amount you have staked determines the extent to which you can advertise your marketplace goods and metaverse services.

  The share in the fees does not go to the stakeholders but the people who put the promotional content, specifically designed to fit the aesthetic of various themes... Into the worlds they create.

  The more you upgrade the ambience of your world with the dynamic promotional content, which by the way, can be done for free, the more you earn from collection a share in the fees.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:35:12
content:
  Neos is already capable of using Blender to do stuff in Neos.
  Blender needs to be installed on its default C path or the designated Blender folder inside Neos folders itself.

  I used it to plant trees and grass in a world. A friend made a giant cornfield as a homage on SLs cornfield for banned people.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:37:44
edit_date: 2022-05-09 13:38:14
content:
  currencies are not competing, They are mandated by the government in the case of fiat. Or they are exclusive utility by the systems they are used for


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:38:06
content:
  Why would they want to? VR enthusiasts have been specifically asking for this.

  You know how games and virtual environments tend to use fake ads as part of the decoration for the world? It's small details like that which add to the immersion. Ads you hear on in game radio, in game TV stations, on posters, on billboards, bus benches, busses, etc.

  Without it, the environments would feel dull and empty. 

  This is exactly that but instead of using fake ads, you use real ones, and only for content creators in the marketplace and people offering services within the Neos Metaverse.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:39:32
content:
  No they are not asking for more ads. They are asking for ads to be done in a way where they replace the fake ads that are used to add to the ambience of a virtual environment.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:40:05
content:
  They were more thinking of diegetic advertisement from what I read. Like literal billboards and signage. Akin to what has been done on Rocky Retreat and Critter canon. But like, not a joke.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:40:45
edit_date: 2022-05-09 13:41:09
content:
  It isn't the currencies competing, but the GNI of the country set against import/export numbers. So it's like countries competing and their fitness being presented by the exchange rate fluctuations to other currencies


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:40:57
content:
  Its better to import a modified and let it build ten thousand objects then to export those out of blender and trying to import it. The nativ importer will die


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:42:40
edit_date: 2022-05-09 13:43:31
content:
  Intrinsic value of crypto is only in the transaction fees. Other token on that blockchain for example those based on ERC-20 have absolutely no intrinsic value


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:42:53
content:
  https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Foyster.ignimgs.com%2Fmediawiki%2Fapis.ign.com%2Fgrand-theft-auto-5%2Ff%2Ffb%2FGta-general-02jpg-5a7de0.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ign.com%2Fwikis%2Fgta-5%2FLos_Santos&tbnid=jM0D3gvMYKLlfM&vet=12ahUKEwjIm7qCxtL3AhVkwDgGHfHWD-0QMygbegUIARCRAg..i&docid=nka5JuQ413QVLM&w=1280&h=720&q=Los%20santos%20GTA&ved=2ahUKEwjIm7qCxtL3AhVkwDgGHfHWD-0QMygbegUIARCRAg


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:42:57
content:
  Little Helper's mmc22 project ran advertisements for other MMC entries. He also experimented with selling adspace on his avatar briefly.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:44:26
content:
  And every time you turn on the Radio in GTA V or Cyberpunk, or decide to watch a TV in the game. Guess what? Fake ads. 

  All I'm suggesting is that they be replaced with real ones. 

  VR enthusiasts who talk about ads, have asked for them to be done this way, and are opposed to every other form of advertising in VR.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:45:43
edit_date: 2022-05-09 13:46:06
content:
  However, I think it would have been much better, if NCR wasn't crypto. If it was just a regulated in-game currency with carefully managed sources and sinks to keep the exchange rate stable, it had been much better. See L$


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:47:52
content:
  And in Neos, the Content Creators are part of that "story" and can very well create their ads in a humorous and illustrative way that adds value to the environment they are placed in.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:48:40
content:
  A technical designer, with 3D experience, and a working knowledge of what goes into creating a good quality product.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:50:55
edit_date: 2022-05-09 13:51:09
content:
  if people were smart and thinking as a collective, they could just avoid any brand that is advertised to push them out of the market


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:51:51
content:
  You aren't going to try to help me understand?

  I do somewhat understand, but in Neos, this is a Metaverse. Really, it is the community of Creators who make the world what it is, and leaving a personal signature piece of self promotional material is all part of the experience of them, the Creator, who probably made some of the assets being used in any given world or made a system which that content utilises in some way.

  They could simply add decorative ads on their own without the kind of features they could be offered which offer them a more dynamic and expandable experience.

  Except, that way, the creator of the world doesn't get paid. So which is preferable?

  People are going to leave their signature, their branding, something to promote themselves anyway. Might as well make a good system for it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:52:31
content:
  Ok. So say I make an awesome product but I am not allowed to advertise it in anyway.

  How does my brand not die?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:54:29
content:
  How can anyone start something and make it into something new when all that will exist will have travelled exclusively by word of mouth. So now you incorporate promotion into social circles. People talk about how great this brand is and how great that brand is and the new guy gets jack shit. Maybe they get a few people in their neighbourhood to notice, maybe it gets out to some friends and their friends. Maybe you sell 100 or so products. Now your brand is dead.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:54:39
content:
  however as a consequence you'd have to pay more then to "consume" those spaces, that formerly had ads as a way for financial support


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:55:25
content:
  Your stance is ultimately in favour of well established, giant, multinational corporations who don't need to advertise because for example everyone knows how great google is or how everyone needs a ryzen cpu.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:55:51
content:
  You are still thinking in advertising and that fallacy of that influencers are needed to promote, etc. etc. It all makes no sense


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:56:07
edit_date: 2022-05-09 13:56:33
content:
  It's not the route I'd go personally, but diegetic advertising is likely to have some interest to someone. There was talk about implementing such a service in the context of community messages/billboards. Not sure about the specific monetization of it, but I did always really like that 2600 magazine just let subscribers put whatever ad they wanted in the back of the quarterly. Especially in the context of a hobbyist community that sort of internal promotion of (ostensibly) fellow hobbyists is kinda cool.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:58:26
content:
  Ok so how does a little Woman from Africa, a Country no one pays attention to, get noticed, real company, they are processing recyclable materials dumped in their home country by the rest of the world who shits on them... And turning it into a good quality, utilisable building material.

  No one will ever hear of some obscure inventor in a country nobody cares about if it were not for the fact that she was able to get advertised.

  What is your alternative? How does she make something of herself and climb out of poverty with her product? How does she get people to notice her?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 13:59:52
content:
  I'd like to hear of the vast amount of stories about inventors from unknown areas to be noticed and popular because of ads


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:00:48
content:
  So would I. That is sure as hell their best chance at getting noticed and making anything at all become of their company.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:01:38
content:
  Wouldn't you think that if they became popular by ads, that you'd have noticed those and know them by now already?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:01:43
content:
  You never answered my question. What other way is there to get your product to the world in this age of the internet.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:02:12
content:
  They still face challenges getting noticed even with ads. But it's better than never getting noticed at all.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:03:53
content:
  Ok. So. How do people find out how good their product is?

  A simple google search? There are 100s of variations of different products, sure, if you do enough research you can find what the best option is going to be, but that is dependant on the idea that people are not going to be lazy and simply go with established brands because if they are so well established surely they must be the best?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:07:22
content:
  Like, a rotating joke/real ad on some Neos style billboards would be a moderately amusing patreon reward. Akin to the exit quotes, especially if it came with a good set of decorative objects for a neon future city or something XD Again, not really sure about it as a serious monetization strategy, but coupled with some actual community organization function (e.g. meet up times, official events, hints and tricks akin to digital signage in conspaces) it could be a moderately playful way to get something of an official opt in announcement system within neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:07:44
content:
  As much as you hate ads. They are actually accessible to most people, certainly anyone with a half decent product already established in their community... And people can get a substantial amount of reach that way. 

  And they are necessary for people to enter into the space of bringing their dreams to the world.

  Word of mouth is unreliable. You can show that with data. Try to get a large amount of reach on social media through word of mouth, maybe you have some success, maybe you don't. As soon as you get ads though, I really wish the NCR graphs looked like that because the amount of reach and engagement you get skyrockets.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:08:25
content:
  Also there is no need to be successful world wide, except you might be the only one capable of creating a product like that. It matters if you can sell it in your community and there word of mouth is enough to make a living


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:09:54
content:
  The idea we should be embracing is to create opportunities for people to be creative and get their creative ideas to go somewhere meaningful. 

  You can make a living making a simple product or you can grow you business and make bigger and better things. 

  Why would you support putting barriers to entry in place to make it harder for people to do something meaningful with their life instead of just getting by and never reaching the full extent of ability to make their dreams happen?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:11:37
content:
  Fuck living life just to wake up the next morning alive and do the same thing you always do while dreaming of all the things this vast world has to offer that would make your life worth living. Meaningless existence.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:12:22
content:
  Living for survival is totally fucked and we should be trying to remove the barriers of entry in place that prevent people from experience life to the fullest and keep them trapped in the daily grind.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:12:38
content:
  I see ads as being a barrier to existence. Either the ad space is dominated by the big players or there are so many ads, that you aren't being noticed at all


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:13:19
content:
  That is its own problem that needs to be addressed but the way to fix that is certainly not by making it accessible to no one.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:13:53
edit_date: 2022-05-09 14:14:05
content:
  it is not a fix, it is realizing that its an intrinsic property of it and the only winners are those who sell ads


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:15:57
content:
  ads shall be only a few significant ones to make a difference, however they would be so expensive that only the big players can afford them


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:16:00
content:
  Still better than nothing. It at least extends your reach to someone somewhere outside your own small little community. You can reach anyone on the planet and if you make a difference with a good product to just one person in another country maybe you are lucky and it spreads throughout their community. Now you are active in 2 communities.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:16:45
content:
  But you are noticed, just not to the same extent as the big players. Remove that and the big players are the ONLY ones being noticed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:17:53
content:
  Reaching just a handful of communities gives you a chance to spread your product to those communities when people see how good it is assuming you did indeed make a good product.

  Why not think of a way to make ads a better option for the little guy?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:18:01
content:
  I'd rather have few ads in small communities, so one who starts out would be noticed in that small community and grow from there


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:19:26
content:
  For example a cyberpunk roleplaying community with a few makers creating avatar accessories in the style of that community having only a few billboards up with their name. However they might not even need ads if they have their shop as a building in there


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:20:05
content:
  Boycott the big brands for hogging advertising space if you want but please think of the fresh new entrepreneurs with a dream trying to make something of themselves in this world


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:21:08
content:
  people then tend to keep their avatar the way they play in that community while visiting other places. People might notice those outfits and might inspect their avatars, where that place would actually be perfectly suited to have ads shown, as the inspection is a request for "ads"


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:21:59
content:
  You could very well actually have a scaling pricing system so the bigger your brand already is the more you have to pay for the same level of advertising space that someone completely new and unheard of could get for pennies.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:22:20
content:
  and that's when someone was lucky to match the taste to become trending in the metaverse to have a limited time of that exposure


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:22:21
content:
  I honestly generally like the ads in Festa or even the dealers den we saw at VFA. Discoverability is one of those hard nuts to crack.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:24:05
content:
  In a kind of capitalistic system I am for treating people equally, even if it seems to be unfair, however that just shows how unfair that system can actually be


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:24:05
content:
  Any why is that? If the problem is that well established brands get all the advertising space and its hard to get noticed when your ad gets washed out by someone who already made it why not make the well established brands pay more and newer people pay less which would mean more advertising space for the people who need it the most?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:25:28
content:
  You still need to find an effective solution for people to get themselves noticed across the world and have a fighting chance against multinational, well established corporations locking small inventors out of the industry.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:26:04
content:
  If you want to treat everyone equally you need to give people a chance to make themselves be equal to those who are disproportionately powerful.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:26:47
content:
  I also think that equity is a way for fair resource distribution, however it clashes with a capitalistic system


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:27:58
content:
  The system itself clashes with the fundamental principles on which capitalism was built. The capitalist ideals are a lie. Capitalism is the carrot on the stick dangled in front of you that you can never catch. If you want a capitalistic system, the carrot needs to be real. People need to be able to get the carrot.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:29:27
content:
  this is probably the best argument /against/ a centralized ad network. an ad-hoc system like thomas was talking about or the few times we've seen community attempts at promotion present a better barrior for a large corporation than any system of progressive ad tax.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:30:01
content:
  And for the reference I am fully in support of a capitalistic system where everyone is ACTUALLY able to get the carrot if they put in enough effort. But you are told that hard work and effort are all it takes to become successful. This is not true. You need to really reach for the whole damn night sky if you want the carrot.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:32:00
content:
  It is. The ideals of capitalism are that you can get the carrot. But it is ALMOST impossible to actually get the carrot. Capitalism should stay true to its values instead of flaunting them as a facade to make people support a system which contradicts its own principals. But if the facade were real? If there was no facade, only the real deal true to what it says on the label... The world would be a much better place where people are actually able to do something with their lives if they try.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:33:13
content:
  But you're right. We need a newer system which actually gives people the opportunity to make something of themselves. That system would resemble the capitalism dangled in front of us as a lie, but with improvements.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:33:15
content:
  the mechanics of such a system is always, that those who have can gain more than those who don't have


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:34:26
content:
  I think it should be a system where it is easy to be afloat, but where it becomes a real struggle to go above a certain threshold, which should be at a level where someone might already be too big


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:34:28
content:
  But it is still somewhat fair if the system gives people the opportunity to first become one of those who have, so that they can gain more than those who don't have. That's what I mean by the carrot. It needs to be accessible so everyone has a fair chance to get to the point where they have the means to grow more.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:37:10
content:
  Ideally it should be merit based in such a way where the best contributions, done with the best designs, the most skill, etc... Are better aligned to do better than someone who just makes cheap shit. 

  What I hope for is a system that actually gives proportionate value back to those who put in value. You do a thing, and then you get the value of that things back. You work harder than everyone else, you get back more relative to those who don't work as hard. You take more risks and face more danger, you get more, you do something that people enjoy more, you get more/


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:38:12
content:
  the thing however is, those who can make the most people work the hardest for them, are those who are the most rich


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:43:31
content:
  Bring on that fully automated luxury space communism IMHO :P We can compete for the best exploratory fleet postings or who gets the best Shakespeare soliloquies that season rather than like, the ability to live.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:43:45
content:
  That is correct and that is an issue. So there needs to be a way for people who make people work the hardest for them and what the work of those people amounts to is some piece of crap that people don't like but buy anyway... To recieve less than someone who also makes people work the hardest for them but makes a high quality product that improves society in some way and genuinely makes people's lives better...

  And a way for the people who work the hardest for the person who makes the best stuff to recieve more as a result. If say, 10% of the total profits after expenses was distributed among the workers, that could be a solution. I might do that with my own company actually and practice what I preach, reward those who put in hard work and effort and subdivide those shares so that the hardest jobs recieve the biggest cut of that 10%...


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:46:17
content:
  Would that not be a more meaningful use for taxes that actually gives people access to the systems the government claims to spend that money on when in reality they spend most of it on stuff that does no good for ordinary citzens at all whatsoever. And goes straight back to the biggest corporations with things like government bailouts and private jets for politicians :^)


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:47:22
content:
  Why would healthcare need to be free if your employer makes so much money you can earn over $100k / year from taxes going instead to pay the workers?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:51:21
content:
  Oh fuck just imagine if even just half of what normally goes to taxes went to actually giving your employees a decent wage.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:55:07
content:
  Still need to do something about those who can't work due to disability and all that but do not underestimate how substantial an improvement that would be. Some companies make dozens of billions of dollars. And they can pay up to 40% in taxes. 

  Apple makes $50,000,000,000 per year. Do you know how much money that is?

  That means they pay $20,000,000,000 per year in taxes. 20 billion dollars. 

  Now imagine they pay $10,000,000,000 in taxes instead and TEN BILLION DOLLARS is split to pay the workers.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 14:59:31
content:
  https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/number-of-employees#:~:text=Apple%20total%20number%20of%20employees,a%203.79%25%20increase%20from%202018.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:01:04
content:
  there's 317 million people in the u.s. and you spent $360 million creating obamacare

  just give everyone a million dollars!


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:03:09
content:
  https://itep.org/fact-sheet-apple-and-tax-avoidance/?msclkid=5cd5f5f6cfa811eca9416a8e1a47d724 sorry, 5.8%


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:03:59
content:
  What a rip off that I should have to give 15% of the tiny amount of money I earned this year, and a company that makes 50 billion a year should have to pay exactly the same percentage.

  I think 40% is completely unfair and I'm entirely against that.

  But if I have to pay 15% at least make them pay 25% or some shit .-.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:08:13
content:
  Well I dunno it's just an idea. There are ways to improve the system in a way that is actually fair. We just have some figuring out to do for certain things.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:10:37
content:
  Different to socialism. Socialism is all managed by the government. You give them almost half of what you earn (here at least if you earn more than a family medical center GP)  and then you trust them to manage the system for you under the assumption that a position fundamentally attractive to those who seek power and control... Have your best interests at heart and will use that money in a way that serves you.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:11:13
content:
  If we are being taxes anyway might as well put a big chunk of that directly in the hands of the people that worked their asses off for the company.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:11:51
content:
  No I am saying that people need to recieve back proportionate rewards to the value that they contribute.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:14:39
content:
  Mac donalds earns $23 billion per year, they have approximately 200,000 workers. That amounts to an additional $5,750 per year.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:15:10
content:
  I'm not sure how proportionate is but that has a semblance of being proportionate to the value they contribute when that would be $67,000 per year for apple workers


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:16:10
content:
  No I'm saying if you took 20% of their revenue per year, and distributed it among all the workers, that would be enough to pay them an additional $5,750 per year


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:22:14
content:
  Well I'm sure there is a way to have a system where people get back value proportionate to the value that they put in, in the form of their works, and in the form of their products.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:23:06
content:
  Allowing employees to have a partial share in the company as a benefit of their employment would be a piece of the puzzle I think


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:25:39
content:
  But how does that amount to a proportionate reward for the creator of a product that is considered valuable? Something which did not exist, which now exists because they gave the world one of the most valuable things you can give a civilisation. An Idea. One that was made to happen by the one who conceived of it?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:28:24
content:
  The labor theory of value sort of breaks down once you incorporate automation. Marx did sort of address this in his Fragment on Machines. What is the value of individual contribution on top of the fixture of General Intelligence embodied by the automation of capital?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:30:56
content:
  Except for the products which we now use every day which have to have been brought into existence by someone. 

  Rarely are their ideas unique. But sometimes they are. 

  I don't want disproportionate wealth I want proportionate wealth. Workers should earn more of course. And perhaps 20% of a company ownership be split among them, but you still have to give credit (and money) to the people who do bring into existence things we use every day that we wouldn't have without them, or at least would be delayed by a few decades. 

  As well as the scientists who earn the same as any other worker but are the ones causing the progress of our civilisation and making all the technology which we use, possible. 

  A scientist who creates something which later becomes a common household item should make as much as a CEO gets from their share of company profits.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:32:12
content:
  And that is where creators have the advantage. 

  As things become more automated, then you can have collectives where everything practically runs itself and produces generic resources gobbled up by the industries where humans still fill the role of creators.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:32:53
content:
  Profits also because profits could be used, if done the right way, as a metric for measuring how much society values their contribution.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:34:40
content:
  150,000 workers, 20% of revenue = $67,000 per year on top of their normal paychecks. Assuming they make $60,000 per year already, that amounts to almost as much as the average CTO


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:37:03
content:
  If i make a subroutine in some peice of code 20% faster, should i be attributed to 20% of the estimated profit generated by the rutine across all installations? I didn't make the machines, and my contribution is infinitely reproducible. Just as a scientific discovery is. What value do my efforts in particular have in the equation? (To be clear, these are just examples of the difficulty of trying to figure out economic value once automation is involved)


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:38:44
content:
  You never stop needing to do more self-study

  But this is more the conceptualisation of political ideas that amount to a fair system where people get a fair amount of value back according to what they put in. 

  In the idea of a self regulating market where the authority falls into the hands of the consumer, as well as partially to competitors, then profits loosely can translate into a loose metric of how much society values their contribution.

  It can always be abused but if consumers are given enough power, then they will not stand for being abused and a corporation will be forced to treat their customers fairly. 

  The framwork for that does not exist yet and needs a lot of work put into making it work in practice the way it does in theory. As the reality will likely be very different and not actually work without some adjustments.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:40:03
content:
  The idea is sound though for businesses backed by an owner who is an inventor, the inventor should still get at least 51%


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:41:23
content:
  Only if I am an inventor and I am the one responsible for the product. Giving 49% to the workers is still a better deal than they already get.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:43:17
content:
  But without an inventor, a thing does not exist.

  If we are talking about generic resources which are not new or different or some generic version of something useful, then yes, 100% of ownership to the workers by all means.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:44:17
content:
  No they are not, governance is actually quite hard if you want to preserve the flat structure as you grow and they require a lot of careful planning on the bylaws from the get-go. I did a moderate amount of research on various charters for them when I was (feel free to laugh) researching possible governance models for a fantasy LARP company  :P


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:48:03
content:
  And what do you do about inventors who produce their creations and operate large companies to mass produce those creations, but they put in the work designing, building prototypes, testing, managing, etc. 

  Without them the thing does not exist.

  Look at Nikola Tesla, he was a great inventor, and he should have recieved more, because without him, we would not have wifi, we would still be using DC electricity, we would not have efficient hydroelectric generators, list goes on. 

  What if he successfully ran a megacorporation across multiple countries to share his creations. How much do the workers get? How much does he get?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:51:41
content:
  He did and that was his mistake because he never got to realize his dream because JP morgan decided they didn't like what he was doing and cut off his funding and tried to blackball him with other investors so no one would invest in him.

  If he had an efficient business model, he could have invested in himself. We'd be using technology not due till next century, right now.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:56:28
edit_date: 2022-05-09 15:56:37
content:
  yet, would the workers be able to build those products, if the inventor didn't exist? Would they be able to sell those products if there weren't merchants and distribution? Would they be able to coordinate creating something larger than a single person can handle, if there weren't managers?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:57:25
content:
  Maybe if doing their fair share of the labour should be a requirement for recieving the lion's share. To get the lion's share, you do your fair share.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 15:59:56
edit_date: 2022-05-09 16:05:13
content:
  I'd argue not much of a difference to be honest. I don't believe the profit motive does much (edit: to clarify, does much 'To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts') , and I'm generally of the opinion that individual excellence is mostly circumstance and standing on the shoulders of giants. I will keep doing what I'm curious about as long as I am able. It's why I am a dorky amateur radio operator, why I put everything I can under the cc0 or MIT licence and why i genuinely hope you end up enjoying your experiments with business structure and strategies. Intrinsic motivation is how I construct meaning, and how I assume other people do as well. Not to discount the social process within that, but still.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:02:11
content:
  Not necessarily. I pulled that figure out of nowhere. I believe they should have over 51% of control over the direction of the company

  And should recieve a proportionately larger share of the profits than the rest of the company.

  That figure may not be 51%

  But it should be the largest portion.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:06:57
content:
  I just know that personally, when I run my own business, I'm taking only from the pool of profits what I need, and distributing whatever does not go to the workers into growing the business and making bigger and better things as well as engaging in a number of charitable operations. The only real use I have for money beyond travel, improving health, having a space to call my home, having good food and the ability to explore the world and enjoy every piece of what is has to offer... (which would amount to nowhere near the amount a lot of people take for themselves) 

  ...Is in funding my addition to creativity, and funding my ambitions to grow as far as I can grow and make everything I want to make.

  No way in hell I'm not participating in the labour. That's the fun part! Actually making the things.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:08:47
content:
  If frooxius were the only creator, yes, but there are other inventors who each contributed their own piece to Neos.

  If a worker were to contribute some of their own piece of creativity towards a product, then yes, they should share the lion's share with the other Inventors.

  51% is only for if the idea is the sole creation of only one Inventor. People should of course recieve a portion of ownership DIRECTLY proportionate to the exact percentage of a creation that came from them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:10:02
content:
  In which case you end up with a collective of Inventors all contributing towards a shared goal. Which I fully support 100%


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:12:19
content:
  Yes, and Karel, being 100% responsible for NCR, and someone who was part of the Neos Team, should have 100% of the control over how it is used within the platform and how it is implemented.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:13:46
content:
  I am the one who was talking about a system where people recieve proportionate rewards to the work they contribute so yes I absolutely will make sure my workers recieve a large chunk of the revenue. 

  So long as 60% goes towards growing the company we all share and producing bigger and better products and improving on them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:14:45
content:
  They are owed what was outlined in the roadmap for NCR. So they have a say in the team's obligation to fulfil the expectations that they created.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:16:20
content:
  The whitepaper gave a plan for what they intended to do with NCR. Abandoning it is neglecting their obligations to NCR holders who bought it in the expectation that it would be utilised within the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:16:49
content:
  They should have no say in internal management, they should have a say in whether or not NCR is implemented in the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:17:54
content:
  Perhaps this can be solved by applying a bundle theory, or family resemblance criteria. After all, few people would argue the MTC isnt neos, given how it's central to quite a few points of criticism XD


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:19:00
content:
  Changing the payment system to a different one, and moving NCR to be a 3rd party solution that is karel's job and no responsibility of anyone else might as well be abandoning it. NCR is something that needs to be used so you can't just have it as an option on top of an entirely different infrastructure.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:21:54
content:
  They can do whatever they want to with Neos. They just need to impliment NCR in either the way that it was said it would be, or in a way that is even better. The rest is no business of NCR holders. The only thing that matters in regards to NCR holders is giving them what they paid for. Which was not the token. But the way in which is was to be used. As a 1st party feature.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:23:44
content:
  So... what stops NCR being a first class citizen in Neos, while NCR also being managed by a 3rd party?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:24:30
content:
  Beyond that yes they should ideally have a proportionate level of ownership to how much of it they were responsible for creating. 

  I don't think anyone really has any legitimate argument to say that the major creator of Neos is Frooxius. He put in the Ideas and the work.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:30:59
content:
  It's the impression frooxius created when he said that it would be a 3rd party solution and all the talk was going on in the discord on using FIAT instead. 

  Although no one directly said that this would be the case.

  I think for right now, what NCR holders are owed, is a statement saying that it is the intention of the team that NCR be used in the platform in close to or exactly the same way as they said it would be. They just intend for it to be taken care of by karel, but will not be replaced by anything different in the short term, they should state that there may be upgrades further down the track, that is between karel and the team, but that it is intended to be implimented in the way they said it will be before anything else such as potential upgrade to a PoS chain or something else.

  They need to reinforce that what was told would be the case, is still going to be the case. As the PRIMARY means of conducting commerce within Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:33:17
content:
  I also thought that making NCR a 3rd party solution would just make NCR obsolete as it'd open competition that it cannot do


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:33:24
content:
  I mean, i do get the specific concern on this point. If NCR is sharing a similar level of integration with other payment methods. It can't reasonably compete with say, PayPal.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:33:51
content:
  But that is not what was meant by making it a 3rd party thing... at least that's what I hope it doesn't mean


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:34:06
content:
  Yes which is why it needs to be the primary system. Until such a time at least as a transition to something better can be made smoothly in a way that protects investor's funds.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:35:37
content:
  it seem the plans are to be the primary system (and only system besides KFC as a testing currency) and the handling of all duties around NCR outside the "game" being done by a 3rd party


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:36:52
content:
  probably a thing, if that's really a misunderstanding, state it in a different lingo as what are actually the plans for the future of NCR


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:38:50
content:
  however don't take what I say as a source to what is really happening to NCR, as I don't know actually. This is more or less guesses of my own


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:38:58
content:
  Once that is done, the only problems with NCR are people with weak hands who panic-sold. NCR can and will make the necessary recovery to clean up economic damages in legally grey waters should it be implimented as promised. whether it is 3rd party or not.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:40:11
edit_date: 2022-05-09 16:40:29
content:
  how can you make people hold onto NCR. How can the value of NCR rise in a healthy and steady way without fluctuations?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:41:39
content:
  it is less of a question if that is wanted. It is more a question of how to have a steady increase that is still healthy to the currency itself


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:44:18
content:
  Many here and especially on the Neos team aren't market people and they have many misconceptions about how a healthy market conducts itself


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:44:24
content:
  The statement to re-assure NCR holders is going to be a massively major step in that recovery. Along with the actual implimentation.

  You can't make people hold NCR but the selling was a result of panic. Clean up the panic and you open the road to recovery. 

  Further recovery would be entirely dependant on discussions with Karel, the team, and those with the Ideas on how to improve the usability of NCR. 

  It does have a hard cap, but you can always rebase it, where you add an extra 0 on the end of the hard cap and also on the end of people's NCR balance, and revalue it at 10% of what it was, no one loses anything, they still have 100% of what they had before. Each individual NCR is worth 10% of what it was but they have 10x the NCR they did before.

  One way to create a steady increase is through tying staking to something functional, like I suggested with advertising, it does not have to be advertising but offering users incentive to stake their NCR and giving people a reason to purchase NCR in order to stake it gives you that steady incline.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:45:28
content:
  Perhaps staking could replace Neos Pro which was apparently removed? 

  Just one possibility off the top of my head.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:46:59
content:
  I don't think that staking would work, people prefer to have it available to drop at the next perceived ATH


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:47:55
content:
  With some methods of staking, you can un-stake it at any time, it's just that you instantly lose the benefits of staking it if you unstake it


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:48:11
content:
  I think more that people need to just accept market fluctuations as a fact of life... people still conduct business with BTC regularly.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:48:57
content:
  There is if you recieve X amount of benefits if you have Y amount staked, and Z amount of benefits if you have W amount staked.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:50:00
content:
  But, if staking is a means to prevent sudden sales happening, then it is counter productive to be able to un-stake the amounts at any time. As you actually want to prevent people selling at the worst time


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:50:01
content:
  If you make one of those benefits something people need to maintain, then you will get people who will buy it just to stake it and aren't going to be motivated to let go when they probably don't actually care about the price of it, only that they recieve the benefits.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:50:55
content:
  You could do it the inverse way and have the benefits slowly accumulate if you keep it staked, and need to be re-accumulated if you pull out and want to go back in.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:51:19
content:
  However, if un-staking needs a fixed time to be processed, I'd say like 14 days, that'd maybe help. As after 14 days things look quite differently


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:52:49
content:
  There is locked staking and there is the other kind of staking normally done via exchanges but the returns on that are generally less.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:53:15
edit_date: 2022-05-09 16:53:30
content:
  That isn't necessarily a bad thing though. And people who want to buy things will buy and use NCR anyway. Directly or indirectly with fiat on the marketplace


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:53:54
content:
  You do run the risk of discouraging people from staking if they sense a risk from committing to that. The inverse method where benefits slowly accumulate up to a limit determined by the amount staked, might be a better option.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:55:00
content:
  I am curious if anyone has experimented with a token that modulates its own supply in order to maintain specific rates of network churn.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:55:17
content:
  what is the risk? I see the risk in high volatility, especially as a merchant, if you receive your NCR in the worst moment and have to pay income taxes on it


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:56:46
edit_date: 2022-05-09 16:57:00
content:
  I'd be interested in how that is even possible, how would the sources and sinks work in an automated way? What would be backing the value?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:57:02
content:
  If I got even 100 percent return yearly for stake I still would lose option to sell and would lose tons of monies


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:58:12
content:
  True, though the same incentive to keep tokens staked could be achieved by the slow accumulation method. People do not like waiting. So two things are factors here.

  1. People hate waiting, the first time you stake, the waiting time should perhaps be waived. 
  1a. People hate waiting, also a good reason to perhaps avoid a long wait time before tokens can be unstaked.
  2. People hate waiting so if you are goin to make them wait to recieve benefits if they unstake their tokens, there is a strong psychological factor there driving them away from doing that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:58:49
content:
  Pull out at any time but wait for benefits to accumulate if you want to stake again after pulling out.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 16:59:36
content:
  I know, it gets people to stake, but the tokens won't be locked. Locking the tokens is the means to counter fluctuations on the market. Therefore un-staking has to take a while


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:00:41
content:
  They can be forcibly locked or you can create psychological incentive for users to self impose locking them down. Perhaps even have a button where users can choose to lock their tokens down so they can't touch them. Doubt that will be a commonly used feature but the fact it is there means someone is gonna use it.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:00:50
content:
  And that time has to be as long, so you'll miss out on a peak fluctuation, that you are unable to sell that high


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:01:45
content:
  but staking needs to prevent people from selling at fluctuations, that's the whole point. But no one will stake then, if they expect fluctuations to happen to pump and dump


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:02:32
content:
  So yeah, staking sounds like a solution, but it doesn't help, as when it is supposed to be effective, people won't use it


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:03:37
content:
  My initial thought would just be that it monitors the number of transactions as a percentage of coin supply, then modulates the block validation rewards depending on the activity. High rates of stationary coins would result in inflation, abnormally high rates of expenditure would result in deflation. I'm mostly just curious if anyone has done something like it. It seems like at least an interesting experiment in designing adaptive systems.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:04:27
content:
  As long as it prevents the next peak and also prevents people to sell off their coins, should a peak happen


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:04:57
content:
  There are many people who don't actually care about fluctuations. They are there for the benefits and for the long term outlook. Fact is that having the staking for benefits option there, and making users wait to recieve benefits as they slowly accumulate the next time they stake if they decide to chicken out, will have a stabilising effect. It might be less or it might be more than if staking was imposed forciblly. It could be more due to the fact that forcing users tokens to be locked down if they are staked, is going to make people not want to stake.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:05:50
content:
  it shouldn't be possible to chicken out. Or even if, they should still have to pay some price for un-staking, like having to wait for 7 or 14 days for the tokens to be unlocked


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:05:55
content:
  Lots of investors in both stocks and crypto are the type who don't pay too much close attention to short term fluctuations if there is a long term outlook that they think will be to a higher percentage increase than the level of fluctuations.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:07:04
content:
  7 might be reasonable, but I still think that the psychological  push from not wanting to wait is both a reason to not stake if the tokens are locked, and a reason to not un-stake if they are going to have to wait for the benefits they are there for in the first place.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:07:41
content:
  Not sure! Markets are complex beasts. I really do mean I'm interested in it in terms of just curiosity XD such a system would be a genuinely interesting experiment.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:11:38
content:
  Yes and the reality of crypto as well as stocks and even fiat (local currency tends to swing quite a bit vs the US dollar) is that there are going to be ups and downs. What matters is that you are able to maintain higher highs and lower lows as a longer term trend at a stable rate that is not going to create a bubble. 

  Here within the country, nobody is concerned whether or not our currency is doing well vs the US dollar when they are buying everything locally anyway more often than not. You still pay the same amount for what you buy as you always do and sometimes you'll be paying more in USD sometimes less, but it is an internal currency, and NCR could create a similar environment and give an isolated sense to it that keeps people from paying attention to trivial short term fluctuations.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:12:29
content:
  Of course it IS crypto. So it is a little bit more volatile but can also be stabilised to the extent where that is a non-issue.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:13:40
content:
  For more than a year bitcoin has fluctuated to the same level the local currency does, but that is mainly due to institutional investors who do not care about short term fluctuations and are in it for the long haul or as a hedge against inflation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:14:38
content:
  Sometimes my dollar is almost worth a whole US dollar. Sometimes it's worth almost half. It happens.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:27:14
content:
  ...Fuck buying things from overseas you can't get here sometimes...

  One of the benefits of crypto, is that it can go up, on a bumpy and eratic but sure incline. Unfortunate when that means I have 25% of the money I had but when a token keeps having higher highs and higher lows, that doesn't matter quite as much because I will have more later.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:29:52
content:
  that's the economy, is does not actually stand still, it just feels like it does, but that is an illusion, it is always in motion


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 17:31:09
content:
  So maybe they should try making it feel stable in the same way where our local economy feels stable BUT IT IS NOT


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:15:14
content:
  Hooboy, Gods save us the day Aliens turn up and meet someone like this. 

  Nonhuman eyes of superior intelligence out there in the night sky among the billions and trillions of stars. Watching us. Part of their night sky that they will innevitably touch. 

  Maybe tomorrow, maybe in centuries.

  And then there are people like this.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:15:59
content:
  Yes I always respond to toxicity with greater toxicity it is such a great solution to all the world's problems.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:17:00
content:
  Yeah and how is that going to work out for you financially? Good luck saving a useless token with no platform to draw any intrinsic value from. I can see you have a degree in economics!


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:18:18
content:
  Arn't you just a cute lil cockroach, ever get tired of trolling and flaming for many months in a row?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:26:08
content:
  We definitely need to all try de-escalation because the toxicity on every side is getting out of hand.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:30:51
content:
  So what, all furries are some kind of conspiratorial hive mind that all have the same opinions and viewpoints and all act as one unit to carry out some sort of secret cult agenda?

  You don't think maybe that everyone is different and having one thing in common does not mean that they all have the same opinions?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:35:32
content:
  Most renters insurance here in Florida maxes at 15k USD in coverage. Given this was Firr's workshop... yeah, i can believe 25k USD in damages. Plus he itemized the claim, so, you can check if you're worried XD


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:37:04
edit_date: 2022-05-09 18:37:28
content:
  Oh hecc it's a conspirimacy!

  Forget the shapeshifting draco reptilian cabal lead by zucc the cuccerberg! It's all the FURRILUMMINATI!!!

  Everyone run!


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 18:40:39
content:
  Oh hecc I see you are in the Altcoin Furries group, forgive me my Furryluminati brother, let us make the secret triangle together, but don't tell anyone! ✋🔺🤚


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 19:29:24
content:
  It already halved before any furries did anything. But it might have reached $20 by the end of the year.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 19:33:23
content:
  Wishing I was involved in that x.x

  I'd hope to be able to make sure an agreement is reached that works best for everyone, which is an out of character level of idealism for me.

  I just need this to go well. So much potential in both Neos and NCR


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 19:56:10
content:
  You're still here? Fight me in beatsaber. 

  You give a shit about VR at all or is it just a token to you built on technology that means nothing to you?

  True VR fanboy can back up his words with his sabers. Let's go.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 19:58:10
content:
  I will do everything in my power to give the token a chance of success. They said they welcomed third party involvement? I'll give them a use case with or without their help.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 20:02:22
content:
  Some people have too much money to burn. For the price of the cheapest land in decentraland I could buy myself a new server and start my own headless client in Neos where I can create my own world as big as I want and have it running 24/7 for people to enjoy.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 20:04:00
content:
  Some real powerful computer hardware. Motherboard with 2 CPU slots, an intel Xeon, 128 gigs of RAM. Shove my GPU in there and I can do anything I want.

  Sadly I don't have that kind of money.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 20:09:18
content:
  I understand what happened and I'm not condoning it, I don't think it had anything to do with being furry. The situation is not over however and recovery is still possible.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 20:10:06
content:
  It just requires some adaptation to the way the situation develops. I will personally put my own effort into this and create use cases for it within Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 20:11:18
content:
  Not going to give financial advice pertaining to personal investment decisions. If you have some already, keep it, otherwise, not much can be said until we have more information.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 20:12:34
content:
  I am aware that it is not needed but it is what I could get for the cost of the cheapest land in decentraland.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 20:19:03
content:
  Are you asking for a world like that in Neos? I could do that, could even play around with the logix a bit and try to give it a little more function.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:12:59
content:
  Been discussing a lot of the tokenomics and creating suggestions for how to improve the usability of the token, give it more applications, and suggesting solutions that would help with team management. Etc.

  A lot of various topics in here and plenty of constructive discussion and unfortunately a few trolls but best to just ignore them.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:16:23
content:
  Yeah, the performance drops after roughly 10 or so people in a world. I have checked the system to see which is being heavily worked and every single time it's always the CPU , with the GPU barely doing anything


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:17:23
content:
  That's not normal, that CPU should be more than enough

  Are you low on storage space? How is your RAM?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:18:23
edit_date: 2022-05-09 21:18:45
content:
  That really shows you how much you actually understand how systems work. Geenz is working on the graphical system, which would be dictated by mostly the GPU, not the CPU. Some events are still CPU bound, but that's not specifically the issue here.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:21:05
content:
  ...yup, they are one bundle of joy... helps that I actually worked on another platform, but most I did there was technical support, bug fixes, and user experience improvements... and exploit hunting


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:22:52
content:
  who said I was IT? I have an actual background working with a blockchain metaverse engine, actively coded for it, and provided support for people, all at the same time. What did you do to contribute towards anything?


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:25:40
content:
  anyway, upgrading my system will mean better compiling time. Going to be dope and means my older rig can be used to act as a backup system or just a major upgrade for my homelab server.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:27:57
content:
  eh... it's fine. Back when I did work for the other platform, I compiled the source and all its needed libraries on a Raspberry Pi. Natively. It took 3 days, but it ran the server code for virtual estate hosting rather well.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:29:20
content:
  Yeah, Qt outright responded back saying "Please don't do that, it will take forever." Joke's on them: I did it anyway and it worked fine. This was BEFORE the quad core ones came out


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:33:33
content:
  yup. That Pi still works, and that thing was tortured. It was my first one I tested all projects with: initial Linux learning, server controller (for remote management), controlling my ant miners (with a color display to boot), recompiling cgminer and another flavor miner so the terrible GPU on it could mine Doge at the speed of a snail, and then became the heart of natively compiling a metaverse server system and its libraries. It spent a majority of its life being blockchain involved to the core.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:35:41
content:
  now it's not doing much. Retired it to being a network wide ad-blocker, but now my primary server handles that. Going to most likely keep it being the heart of the network by having it monitor all services and notify me if something is wrong.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:41:04
content:
  Imagine proof of green energy where instead of outdated systems intended only as a proof of concept for the potential of blockchain technology, you collected fees by putting energy, green energy I might add, IN TO the system :^) 

  You still need to validate the ledger somehow of course but there are ways of doing that which can work. Proof of Authority has been tried for that purpose, exactly that purpose in fact. Totally decentralised energy grid. Peer to peer, no power company required. Unfortunately, proof of authority kind of undermines the whole decentralised thing. There's probably a better way.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 21:42:36
content:
  would be kind of neat if the mining nodes could prove their source of energy. I have a solar regulator that could power some of my Pi projects.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 22:06:49
content:
  many posts  nothing useful  why no news on $NCR instead  just children poking stick at wildlife shameful 😮‍💨


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 22:50:53
content:
  Please do, constructive discussion is helpful, and might just get noticed by the right people to make a difference. Gotta be loud.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 22:52:23
content:
  You want things to happen you gotta make them happen. Can't just sit around waiting for someone else to do something.


type: message
date: 2022-05-09 22:54:41
content:
  I think at least someone will see my constructive suggestions on how to add value to the token and preserve its integrity and salvage the reputation of the Neos platform.

  Will you please let the alien thing go? I was responding to someone's comments on my artwork.

  Try being constructive or you will be left behind. 

  Things don't happen without action.

  Planting the seeds for new ideas is a good start.


type: message
date: 2022-05-10 01:37:02
content:
  Andrea is an admin and Karel is the creator. And I suppose technically the 2 bots are also admins so they can moderate


type: message
date: 2022-05-10 01:41:10
edit_date: 2022-05-10 01:41:30
content:
  I don't know what the nopigrobot one is configured to do but the other only stops sticker posting. Which is now a useless bot as one of the 2 admins changed the settings on the group after it was pointed out


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 06:05:56
edit_date: 2022-05-11 06:36:06
content:
  Morning guys, sorry if things appear a little quiet these days. Neos carries on as a beloved creator platform and thankfully people are still able to enjoy it☺️.
  We are also blessed with many businesses and educational institutions that has made Neos part of their workflow - which is wonderful because it means more content and functionality and of course it helps to drive interest from broader user base. Which is good news for NCR as well down the line- as who stands behind you matters a lot when it comes to confidence and trust in the platform as we all know☺️
  ***And here I stress that I am talking about the faith in the platform itself - not talking about leadership and current messy situation. Creators will keep creating because Neos comes packed with features and functionalities that are in many instances much further ahead of other (and larger) platforms. 

  I strongly believe that Neos is too good to fail now and while we are seemingly stuck in this limbo - I have reached out to a few people lately, with plans on further platform promotion.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 06:06:37
edit_date: 2022-05-11 07:00:37
content:
  We are also implementing some fixes to the website which should be in place within this week - namely addressing the account verification process. 

  And we hear your feedback where it comes to showing more user content and in-game footage on the website. 
  I have tried to reach out to a few people who have worked on the original Neos trailer which was sadly never released, with the intention of fresh collaboration, but unfortunately not everyone is as approachable as I hoped or able to see past the current situation. Which is a shame as I believe having a nice Neos trailer on the website for instance, is nothing controversial and we would all benefit from that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 06:07:15
edit_date: 2022-05-11 07:00:44
content:
  But onwards and upwards - we have an amazing support from many others and I think it is an opportunity to work on a new trailer and other content with people who truly support Neos, have a great positive attitude and understand the bigger picture - and what is at stake😊. 

  So I am personally looking forward to better days and of course catching up with some of you in Neos who I haven’t had a chance to talk to yet 😊


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 06:40:11
edit_date: 2022-05-11 06:44:05
content:
  I honestly do hope at some point we can put things behind us, lay out terms that address everyone's desires, and focus on those things together and repair our divide. I don't think old wounds can heal so easily with just words, but even this situation, I atleast believe, isn't beyond both parties making amends.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 06:46:28
content:
  Yes, I also think that people who have the interest of Neos at the forefront are those who are actually proactive already because they tend to focus on pragmatic side and what can be done.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 06:47:29
content:
  Like you can focus all you like on the spilled glass of milk but esentially, if it's spilled it's spilled😁 Lets clean the mess and move on 😊 Plenty more milk to go around. 😁


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 09:04:41
edit_date: 2022-05-11 09:43:50
content:
  Not planned at this time, one universal subscription with increased storage and other perks to succeed both Pro and Patreon is planned long term.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 12:35:08
content:
  Honestly, this place smells a lot like fur. I'll spam the telegram channel at the end of this month so it won't work anymore


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 14:08:46
content:
  ... If thats a toxic negative wasteland, then there is no title in the world to descirbe the negativity in this TG channel.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 14:32:49
content:
  Imagine all the things you could be doing to improve your life.   But instead you choose to be a literal big baby.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 14:38:03
content:
  Get on with my life and make more money. Sounds like you didn't earn it on your own in the first place.  Otherwise you would have already done so.   Literally can write off the loss.  My god was it your inheritance?


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 14:43:44
edit_date: 2022-05-11 14:44:48
content:
  Pikey cam in with an alt account and I mocked him for wasting his own time, then he bemoaned losing "millions of dollars"


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 14:57:11
content:
  Or you could quit whinging and go make the money back elsewhere like an adult.   My god did you lose your dead relatives life savings or what?


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 14:58:42
content:
  NEETS spending dad's money have all the time in the world.   Speaking of which.   I'm pressed for it, take care ya'll


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 17:03:14
content:
  May be better to ping Andrea for it I think.
  But damn.. wonder how long he will keep them coming >_>


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 18:56:26
content:
  Both platforms have been sharing each other's posts. Both platforms think the other is wrong. We could talk about that all day, its not that interesting.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:00:20
content:
  I get there's little moderation here, but I feel bad for anyone looking for serious community interaction here aside from Andrea's posts, which are wonderful by her and I'm glad she keeps positive light.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:00:22
content:
  Oh my god.  I just want to talk about how to go forward with things in Neos in this chat and everytime a good discussion gets going it's literally the same handful of people that come in here whinging and writing essays about their hurt feelings.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:13:17
edit_date: 2022-05-11 19:14:14
content:
  Yeah the discord and telegram are obvious failures.   And pretty much are a division.  It might be time to nuke them both and adopt something slower like a message board.  It's not a good look for new users


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:16:24
content:
  The discord is fine. Theres this common generalization that the discord is entirely toxic even though crypto/situation conversations are held in a couple threads in 1 or 2 channels. Like, everything else is just continuing as normal, most of the discord doesn't even pay attention to the drama.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:18:58
content:
  If you can't, understand the problem with having "drama containment channels" on a discord there is no use explaining it to you.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:20:18
content:
  I don't see the problem because discord is a platform where you sort conversations into threads and channels. So, it's only natural these conversations are in a thread, are you expecting it to be a server wide discussion thing or what?


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:22:05
content:
  Removing threads/channels just creates leakage into other channels. This is why they are created in the first place. There was so much activity in the NCR channel a few months back that it had to be categorized or it was chaos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:22:37
content:
  There is a good reason to not remove channels. There never has, they all have been archived. The conversation in the original NCR channel is still there before it became a hub for multiple threads to handle the peak in crypto discussions


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:24:47
content:
  You don't bother to explain the issue, so I will continue to believe that creating channels for discussion is okay. It's not even quarantined, its open, public, join in. Whats the big deal?


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:52:05
content:
  Dude, Pikey was an ass ever since I joined. The only thing that changed recently is he started applying the principles of equal opportunity asshattery and threatened the project.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 19:59:17
content:
  You've been here for pretty much all the crap too >.> I have no idea why you are devil's advocating his behavior. It was clear he was toxic from the get go, and yeah, it really is an issue of moderation that he was around for so long. Hopefully channel moderation takes that as an improvement opportunity.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:08:31
content:
  The YUR bridge is coming out fairly well and the dev team behind it is happy such works. Would like to figure out how to bridge it better but eh... fitness data be fickle I guess


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:12:59
content:
  the discord is just more in agreement with each other. They ran everyone else out who wanted to have a different opinion and now have to mull about in agreement over their obsession with a badguy. And keep in mind this TG is kind of for the people who feel like they're under attack not just for being "cryptobros", (which, I don't know if you saw how ugly things got before this TG even existed) but also under attack financially with the implied abandonment of the token. If you wanted to bridge the divide, why is there not a single voice on the discord who is in consideration of the group who is being defrauded?


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:16:27
content:
  There is a lot of anti-furry nonsense, and I've said much of it too, but I think many of those voices are both from people who dont speal good english and also this is their firsr time even HEARING about this fandom


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:17:16
content:
  and from their perspective, furries agree unanimously on things together and are impressively organized in what many of us feel is an unfair situation


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:19:32
content:
  Like, when Nex has people insinuaring insane shit about him I think you can agree that's fucked up. It shouldnt be OK with Tizzy


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:20:23
content:
  And Tizzy was one of the most positive voices in here. That changed recently following alot of thos abuse. People drawing ugly pictures of her and just the absolutely toxic public display on places like Twitter


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:20:41
content:
  why can't your side take responsibility for some of those things and try to treat us like humans too?


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:21:00
content:
  eh.... if you have a background with what they claim to be an expert on... there's a reason... but oddly, I never really dealt with that stuff so... while I cannot judge Tizzy directly from my own past interactions, I haven't heard anything decent from many people... including ones who dont' even care about Neos


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:22:16
content:
  Oh sure, I can have the same opinion about various people too and propagate rumors and say "well I didnt see it personally"


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:23:00
content:
  people were doing the same to Nex, implying he was involved with some sort of sexual misconduct when in reality that wasnt even true at all. Im guilty for believing it too


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:24:34
content:
  well we're all turning into affinity groups, where we believe anything with bo verification if its something we agree with.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:25:20
content:
  to be fair, I have dealt with people that act like Tizzy, oddly on other platforms in the stance of moderation. The issue I can base from just their own words isn't so much positivity and more cheerleading. You can be positive about most things, but it's hard to be positive about things that aren't positive themselves. Cheerleading though? You can cheerlead for a promotion, a completed goal, and even a train wreck.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:26:29
content:
  And you think the way people talk about Karel 24/7 there doesn't habe an effect on his mentality or communicate that of he even did want to let go, he shouldn't


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:27:19
content:
  Because she genuinely believes what shes saying probably? And we all see this as an unfair situation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:28:50
content:
  I'm not saying that beleiving in something is somehow an issue, but preaching everything in the given stances done recently, I've yet to see a chain of statements that don't end with "Also, f*** the furry cult".


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:29:55
content:
  they're genuinely angry. I'm sure plenty there said "fuck cryptobros" and got away with it, or were gloating about NCR dumping and "cheerleading" that


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:33:32
content:
  Bear in mind, most people in Neos, furry or otherwise, have a sizable pool of NCR within the platform itself. Heck, I still have the file wallet to the older platform I worked for... though it's not useful at all due to how that system handled its connections with the blockchain


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:35:50
edit_date: 2022-05-11 20:36:48
content:
  there's all sorts of motives and emotions tied up. I think we've focused too long on worrying abiut what other parties think or want for their perceived adversaries and not on just plainly stating what we'd each want for the platform


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:38:32
content:
  well for starters, having withdrawals and transactions being automatic would have helped alot of problems


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:40:37
content:
  Completely agreed. The older platform I worked for... was more manual than one could even imagine. You had to schedule bank appointments... in world. It was as clumsy as you can imagine, not to mention annoying. EU users were basically screwed.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:42:39
content:
  I mean, there is the voting system for problems on GitHub, but almost no one on Patreon really knows about this or has signed in. I would argue that something like this should be a website feature, so that you can vote via the client or via the website.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:44:30
content:
  Not to mention, you need someone to break out their GitHub 'fu and have written a ticket about something. And then there's finding it so you can vote for it. I love GitHub, but unless you have decent technical knowledge, it's painful for general users. That might filter out common issues from being repeated, but it also prevents them from being known.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:50:02
edit_date: 2022-05-11 20:50:23
content:
  I actually have voted on an ironic ticket on that: no help command. You can find the bot, but without resorting to the Wiki, you won't know what the commands are. Typing in anything from /help to /findnearestcliff doesn't respond with anything, so you don't know if the command you got was right or not.

  So with the /priorityIssue command, I enterred it in with my Linux mindset of 'lowercase everything' and did /priorityissue 1878. Nothing happenned. It wasn't until I saw the wiki and saw the capitalization. /priorityIssue 1878. Now it talked to me.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:53:09
content:
  I forgot where I got it, but I found the API URL that said how many votes were casted and where. The issue is the number was only like 208 votes. And the Patreon has... even with dwindling numbers, 1705 members as of this writing. You can imagine what it was like to see 208 votes back when the numbers were far higher, and that no one had even bothered to vote on issues


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 20:53:45
content:
  But at the same notion... I have been on the Patreon for more than a year, and I hadn't even voted because I didn't know how.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 21:35:25
content:
  Huh. Slightly unrelated but Nvidia just released an open source linux driver for their Turing and newer cards.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 21:55:20
content:
  Where and when was this disproven or even addressed? As far as I am aware the volunteers have refused to say anything confirming or denying these allegations.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 22:46:14
edit_date: 2022-05-12 00:12:26
content:
  I've been genuinely thrilled about the future of Neos and was very all-in on evangelizing it, but I can't get behind watching the userbase and volunteers try and remove the co-founder of Neos from his own company. It's not only unrealistic, it's also unethical and requires an incredible amount of delusional hubris to think it's even a viable option. Over the past year of getting to know Karel, he has shown himself to be a good person who cares a lot about Neos and the future of the company. It's been infuriating watching people demonize him while failing to acknowledge that he is 50% of the reason that Neos even exists, and that's why I will continue to defend him and Andrea regardless of the social consequences.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:33:19
content:
  I just wish at the very least people would admit to the level of work he has put into the project. Because he assumed a business related roll, to assume he was useless or had a "fake" job (as people are doing RIGHT NOW) in the discord, is just one of many layers of childish, unfair thinking of the situation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:35:00
content:
  Because what some voices don't want is for us to have to come to grips with the fact that all parties actually care about the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:37:36
content:
  I feel that even if the cofounders came together, laid out fair terms, apologized, and whatever else needed to be done...


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:39:02
content:
  and of I voiced something like that, I'm absolutely positive Probable or Geenz would step in and tell me they don't care they still want Karel gone


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:48:38
content:
  Any skill based position that has physically tangible results tend to be that way. It isn't just tech oriented ones


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:49:47
content:
  Well, I've felt tech positions have been well catered to recently too.. There's this idea that the company exists to support the lifestyle of the IT crowd, instead of the other way around. Not applying that to the technical work on Neos or anything, as Im not saying I think any party has been treated fairly but those coming from those fields seem to expect that.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:51:33
content:
  yeah, well its like, something in the back of my mind. Or it contributes to the feeling of this being an unfair situation.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:52:53
content:
  Oh I mean the discussion in the discord... as in young liberal people writing off a CEO position or trying to discredit it or whatever they want to project on Karel


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:53:49
content:
  I'm hearing stories about compaci classes so full they have students sitting in the halls trying to listen


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:54:12
content:
  Part of that is also that the education that is offered usually doesn't lead to successful tech workers. Instead, you just have people who can read a textbook and answer quiz questions, instead of people who can observe an issue and come up with a solution. The problem is that when people then filter the entire group, a common major filter is the scoring of the individual, which favors the people who can read books, and not the ones that actually wanted to do something else in the field.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:57:05
content:
  Well, when I worked for the other platform, I was actually rejected due to my background in programming. This is because the requirements for the software engineering position had far higher requirements, that I did not have. Instead, I applied as a support and engagement associate, but so were many other software engineers, who were attempting to get a lower position and work their way up. As a result, I got stuck in that filter, despite being asked several times to apply from the team.


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:57:12
content:
  Over here thats the norm with nearly every university path for the first half year.
  The next half year, 30-40% haven't passed or leave for different paths or even job offers


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:57:50
content:
  well point partly being if someone said "Karel actually worked pretty hard and devoted some years of his life working on Neos" I'd probably get attacked Regardless of people's opinions, I wish people over there would just accept that


type: message
date: 2022-05-11 23:58:51
content:
  I have no idea what is the norm for Unis either then or now.. and to be clear I dont really think good engineers are that disposible


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 00:00:31
content:
  Spoiler: I was qualified. Otherwise I wouldn't be saying "when I worked for another platform." The issue was a disconnect between the developing team who were in world and the hiring team. Even the day that I was rejected, I was pulled over to the side by a team member requesting that I submit my resume and credentials for the position, unaware of the outcome.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 00:06:55
content:
  this was back in 2016. VR was new. There wasn't really any tailoring to a field that just came out. I had mentioned my contributions to the project (recompiling the server for Raspberry Pis, research on full body tracking solutions, bug fixes in the client), but that again put me in the 'software engineer who wants to become a support agent to then become an engineer'


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 00:12:48
content:
  well... that's the sadder part: it was a small company; a start-up even. I mean, either way, it worked out, and I was onboard as the furthest remote employee they had for more than a year. It paid for all my VR equipment and computer upgrades I needed for the job, so no complaints.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 03:45:36
content:
  Horizon has made a super friendly UI and great creation controls, but… the whole experience is so dumb. Avatars are so simple and childish. Like a PSP 32 bit game


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 06:10:53
edit_date: 2022-05-12 14:50:04
content:
  same question was asked when I was with my previous employer on the other platform.
  Simplicity and ease of use are major factors, since you want anyone to be able to explore around. A common question that got asked around during the final times of the staff meetings was "Would you have a family member try this and what reason do you have for your answer?" I always said No, simply because the polish and intuitiveness was absent.
  Look at how websites and some basic apps work. Most share common languages and symbols that virtually all agree with. A floppy disk to save, folder to open, an arrow to navigate, blue, underlined text means a link, etc. Translating that to VR is complicated, because while we may still think "I can pick up a glass as I can in reality", not everyone understands that. They know they're in a world, but don't realize they can interact with it in the same way. Even then, how would you interact with a menu? Real life doesn't have holograms as a normal thing yet.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 06:15:25
edit_date: 2022-05-12 14:50:02
content:
  I mean, look at AltSpaceVR: that is simplicity at its finest in a way, so much so that just before the doors closed all the way, Microsoft purchased them. Most of its graphics are glorified chess pieces with floating hands, but it still works well for what it wanted to do: being a purely social VR platform. You could sit anyone in it and the natural experience it offers just works, because the scope is so narrow.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 06:17:36
edit_date: 2022-05-12 14:50:44
content:
  Neos's scope is huge. You can do anything in it, but sometimes this isn't always desired. We all visit websites (you had to do so to get here), but not everyone here wants to build one. Even if the desire is there, some people want to compile their own copy of nginx, vi the config files, and manually tweak how the tcp pipes will function. Other people just want Square Space (not sponsored). Some are happy with just a Facebook page.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 06:56:08
content:
  This is the cycle of financial markets, if it rises, it must fall, and if it falls, it will rise as it did not fall


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 08:37:40
content:
  Many games made with the unity engine are purchased and played by millions of people. However, the number of people actually using unity to create things is a much smaller number.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 08:38:36
content:
  Comparing VRchat numbers to neos's numbers is more or less a similar comparison. VR chat users mostly experience worlds and are made by other people, but the number of other people is not the number of users.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 08:40:24
content:
  Again, I mostly refer to how I often describe VRchat itself: it is a very well made unity scene viewer with built-in VR and multiplayer functionality, allowing multiple users to observe a rendered output of a given unity scene


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 08:49:52
edit_date: 2022-05-16 04:11:35
content:
  In any user generated content ecosystem there needs to be a healthy balance of consumers and creators, and those creators need to have economic incentive to crowdsource the world. NCR is an important piece of the puzzle because it will encourage commercial growth of virtual goods sales and that directly impacts the revenue model of Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 08:55:47
content:
  i agree that ugc eco system will get larger and larger as time goes.. and thats why I like neos more.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 08:57:27
content:
  vrchat easy to play so it can absorb users quickly

  neos is slow for adapting, but as time passes.. it will bring even more users.
  But when? how? Any strategy?


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:06:39
content:
  I think we will see steady growth just by providing a viable, capable alternative. We are not creating the VR market, for sure, but we are a decidedly ground-up alternative to mostly corporate platforms. Our growth factor in the social VR market is disillusionment. Which IMO is inevitable. I am mostly fine being ActivityPub vs being Twitter and the slow growth that entails, though.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:08:19
content:
  Ye, a UI overhaul is some low hanging fruit. But i'd be lying if I didn't say I'd rather have LogiX collections in a janky UI atm vs a slick inventory interface XD


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:15:17
edit_date: 2022-05-12 09:16:20
content:
  and thats fine I guess, but I'm slightly irked by the cope I read about that..comparing the product to other examples, or saying we're not competing with VRChat, etc


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:33:16
edit_date: 2022-05-16 04:12:19
content:
  100%. Neos is absolutely a VRChat competitor as they both exist in the social VR space and have similar use-cases for end users despite the differences in the building pipeline. The current userbase has pushed the meme of "We're not a VRChat competitor" because the VRC user demographic entering Neos would incite an in-world cultural shift that they don't want to see happen.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:39:29
content:
  they definitely like that small town aspect that I think ppl want to preserve but don't want to openly say that


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:39:40
content:
  I'd like to see Neos grow. Though I really, really want to crack growing the platform without losing the cordiality in the current culture. I am also politically motivated to keep the platform in a state that prioritizes user participation. Peer to peer as an architectural choice and guiding ethos. I feel that most of the other players in the space are chasing the sort of clearly and sharply delineated content creator/content consumer model, which does make commercialization easier but it also tends to give rise to these parasocial spaces. I see that as one of the major challenges of our time in terms of computer mediated human interaction.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:44:19
content:
  The reality is that every successful social network - be in 2D or 3D goes through a growth phase where the early adopter culture no longer scales into the mass market. I remember joining Twitter in 2007/2008 to find tech parties at SXSW and the userbase was so small you could see small event postings in the main feed. Facebook also used to be a very closed system with only .edu college emails being allowed to register. Neos will go through that as well and it's better to embrace it and plan for it vs curbing growth.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:46:36
content:
  I think that's true, though I attribute that tendency to the way the modern web landscape is structured rather than an inherent aspect of networked society. I still remember the tail end of the early web era, and I've found snippets of that same culture in even large networks like Mastodon that are structured to better avoid the sort centralizing of attention and power that seem to make the other networks thrive.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:53:10
content:
  I do too. I think we have a transformative potential for computer mediated interaction if we do it right. Growth is something we can manage without abdicating our responsibility to be socially conscious of the environments we are building. I think that's especially a poignant point given the facebook comparison :P let us hope the better angels of our nature prevent us from chasing engagement at the cost of our community's mental health.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:54:25
content:
  at a point though, I wonder if we're just building playgrounds to try to recreate those feelings. if those tools are made but there's a conscious decision to avoid competeing, which some here see as a conscious decision to fail


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:55:20
content:
  We can always improve, ye. I think it's at least better than what I came to expect in VRchat, and I have a tendency to look for structural influence in such things.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:57:50
edit_date: 2022-05-16 04:19:38
content:
  Current Neos culture is furries standing around in sync lounge with logix spaghetti and inspectors open everywhere while new users fumble around the UI trying desperately to connect with another human to help them and then ultimately ragequitting for VRChat.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 09:58:50
content:
  it sounds more and more like Neos consciously wants to be a layer below everything else. Like it just wants to catch those users who fall between the cracks of other platforms or something


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:01:16
content:
  and I don't understand the future plans where it wants to impliment some sort of secondlife inventory system and shop. Like if it did want to have those mastodon principles I dont see how it really means that sincerely and not as a cope


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:01:19
content:
  We had a few MMC exploring parties during that time. I'm sorry you didn't find them :< It does suck when you can't find people to share the things you find with.


type: message
date: 2022-05-12 10:03:09
content:
  I mean I know, and I can accept that being what it "started" as. I think sex is kind of an important part of a compelling virtual world anyway but like Ive said before I dont want some 3D f-list client


