# messages

type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:16:53
content:
  so yes: avatar restrictions being a thing, while not ideal, is also a requirement if you have a Quest. Even though I mostly use my Index, I won't try to pretend that other people don't use the Meta owned headset, so having my avatar fall back to a stick of butter is rather unfair to them


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:17:21
content:
  I get 120fps a lot of the time in VRC, typically 60 with a dozen or more people. It only drops down to 40fps in worst case scenarios and never less (and that's on Ultra with 4x MSAA and 200% Index res). It's rare that I'm able to get above 40fps in Neos, even in an empty world I cannot hit 120fps, ever.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:18:29
content:
  I have never gotten 120 FPS in VRChat unless in desktop mode, but if that's the case, then Neos gets it all the time in desktop mode.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:21:27
content:
  Which you don't need to do, normally I don't need to hide anyone, on rare occasions where there's 50 people in a room, I may hide one or two.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:22:03
content:
  VRC doesn't give to shits on the texture sizes you use, only that you don't use too many materials or drawcalls. The fact that if I set my avatar size limit to 100MB means that more than half the room won't even load. I may have a decent connection, but there is no good excuse I've seen from anyone as to why I need to download 300MB for their snowflake avatar


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:24:19
content:
  HOWEVER, Neos has a restraint on this via inventory limit. If you want to use 4k textures for everything, you can, but you will run out of space quickly. For a normal user, 1GB of space will be eaten up quick if you do that. In some regards, you have to become optimized in keeping file sizes lower, and thus help with loading times.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:24:25
content:
  You think you're critiquing VRChat, but in reality you're just pointing out that your friends are basically assholes. That's on them.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:26:32
content:
  at least Neos had the accessibility options. While the current release of VRC did add quite a decent amount, don't pretend they weren't available. Even then, some like text chat for mute users is still not a thing on VRC NATIVELY


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:28:06
edit_date: 2022-06-16 21:28:22
content:
  Because they don't want people doing it. It's VRChat, for talking. They're against mutes, as are a lot of people, especially as it's often a case of people just being weird or awkward, making everyone else deal with their inability to just *fucking talk*.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:30:26
content:
  I argued with Philip Rosedale about this, and and I'll slam down with you if I have to: yes, having people speak and use their voice in a VR system is very critical, especially because doing any form of typing is still not ideal for a VR user. However, don't pretend that when sending information, voice doesn't work for everything and for some users, especially those physically unable to or too socially uninclined to speak, it doesn't work


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:31:29
content:
  "Not wanting to" just reinforces hugbox scenarios, it's very much a scenario where they need to "man up" and just talk. For people who are *genuinely* disabled then they have my sympathy, but they are a microscopic amount of the actual claimed "mutes".


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:31:50
content:
  not to mention, a keyboard is a required tool to operate a PC. I just had my meeting at work and my microphone wasn't cooperating. I got it working, but if we had no text system, I wouldn't be able to relay "one second, fixing my mic"


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:35:20
content:
  I'd agree with you if these people were genuinely disabled, but they're not, they're just making everyone else deal with their inability to handle basic human interaction. They need to get help, not be on a social VR game.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:37:25
content:
  I disagree. The mute systems require everyone else to change how they use the program. I now need to start paying attention to floating boxes above people's heads all the time rather than paying attention to what I was trying to do and it's incredibly distracting and completely breaks the social flow.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:40:41
content:
  Heh.... mods, or namely lack there of... sorry for the trouble you are about to endure...

  Promptly go fuck yourself. A family friend wasn't able to speak for a month due to medical complications. It's pretty hard to speak when you have an air tube down your fucking throat.

  My cousin, who just had their honeymoon, goes around and had a complete blast with playing my VR games on my Quest. They were able to move around and do all sorts of things. Because in reality, they don't have any legs. They haven't since they were 2.

  My late aunt couldn't move around due to constant calcium deposits building up everywhere, and she was jaw dropped on simple things like Google Earth and being able to see her older home from above.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:42:09
content:
  I usually odn't, and I also don't care. I or anyone shouldn't have to even argue this. It's not exactly fucking rocket science


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:44:33
content:
  Take two platforms that are 100% identical. no performance differences, no sign in differences, more or less, they run and act the same.

  One just works as advertised.
  The other has simple things like one handed control options, anti-motion sickness systems, rebinding, and at the very least, a Text to Speech system.

  Again, both platforms work completely the same.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 21:51:36
content:
  Well... vignette mode is one. I think there's also a one handed control profile you can activate by default rather than having to open the menu in the other hand. I'll boot it up quickly and take alook.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 22:09:31
content:
  And they were able to host a world with 6 or 8 people on a phone too.
  They were all headset avatars and phone or quest users, but it works


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 22:10:02
content:
  Odd. We couldn't get more than 2 people in a world with Quest 2. Whenever the next person joined, the other person would crash out.


type: message
date: 2022-06-16 22:11:36
content:
  that's.... strange. It's been awhile since I tried it, but I was using a Quest 1, and I was able to join one world that had some people in it that I can recall, and while it was buggy, it did function.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 16:15:47
content:
  RIght, voluntarily don't want to publish any work. So if the platform is dying due to lack of updates, interaction from the team etc then remember that that's *entirely* voluntary from their side.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 16:20:00
content:
  And I don't think public opinion of Karel is changing at all. The people that hated him before still hate him now. Neos' userbase is tiny and it's literally just the same crowd of people talking to themselves now.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 16:49:27
edit_date: 2022-06-18 01:25:37
content:
  I think it's important to remember that there are people who still whole-heartedly support Karel and Andrea. Karel has always been a foundational part of Neos and looking back at his videos discussing the Metaverse on YouTube, you can see that he was equally as passionate about creating something amazing. Frooxius architected the software and Karel architected the business, funding, marketing, and was also instrumental in steering the direction of Neos as a product.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 16:56:29
edit_date: 2022-06-18 01:25:43
content:
  Frooxius has stated multiple times in the past that the business wouldn't have survived without Karel and there were times when they would have folded without his intervention and business savvy.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:02:31
edit_date: 2022-06-17 17:08:30
content:
  Yes, but that's all in the past. I don't get the feeling at this present time that Karel regards the business, platforms, or users in the same way he once did.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:06:44
edit_date: 2022-06-18 01:26:35
content:
  The Discord contingent also banned me and deleted years worth of meaningful chatlog history discussing the platform. Tout est juste dans l'amour et la guerre.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:12:11
content:
  Anyway, water under the bridge and I don't mind. Just thought I'd point out that it's happening on both sides.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:25:46
edit_date: 2022-06-18 01:28:04
content:
  This is stupid hyperbole, it was a meme. The users in the official discord spit constant vitriol which is far worse and no-one seems to have an issue with that.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:29:11
content:
  Bruh... there may be memes involved, but depicting direct harm against a known individual, namely one involved with this entire mess... yes, both sides have made their funny pictures, but then that came out and no one was laughing


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:35:43
content:
  even then, the fact it's based on something that was still rather controversial at the time... it wasn't in good taste.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:40:16
edit_date: 2022-06-18 01:29:58
content:
  Calling Karel a scammer, a fraud, an abuser, and other disparaging descriptors was also in bad taste and a good amount of the Discord community was participating in that. Both sides are equally as complicit in contributing to the toxicity because we've all been very fired up and emotional over the future of Neos. My overarching point is that we need to all step back and realize there's nothing any of us can do right now and being at each others throats isn't going to solve anything.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:46:12
content:
  Be that true, unarguably, Neos is losing concurrent users. With all the Patron backers, users on Discord (which is in the thousands), and the ~360 users in this Telegram, even with timezones involved, there should be far more users online, especially in the past.
  But, at no point has the online user count honestly spiked, and this was before the controversy.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:49:01
content:
  I think there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding the future of the platform and people are having a hard time justifying the time investment, especially creators like GearBell who just publicly opted out and moved back to VRChat because there was no longer an audience for her creations.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:49:45
content:
  Back before, I recalled hearing about some partnerships going on and several big moments that Neos could have had. The bHaptics event was seriously a lot of fun, even if it was rather badly managed. It created a unique experience for people to try that showed off immersive hardware that, while expensive, a general consumer could actually buy.
  Their video just got released a few days ago, and it has little engagement.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:52:04
content:
  The past 8 months of stagnation have been an incredibly damaging opportunity cost but the good news is that it can only get better from here, and hopefully if and when things do move forward - partnerships like that can be re-explored.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:53:37
content:
  Heck, the HTC release of their mouth tracker should have been a massive moment for Neos but.... well...
  It was met with "Can VRC please add support?" rather than "Oh, there is a platform that actually supports it natively."
  And this was in early 2021, and people were still weary, yet liked the device and idea.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:55:14
content:
  Issue is that Neos's reputation was already low, and it's been an uphill battle from the beginning. The past months of nothing isn't a standstill; it's rolling backwards even faster, and everyone knows this.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:56:39
content:
  Even if the devs aren't doing anything, there are people obviously still watching, and some even still jumping in and doing things. There have been many discussions on Neos's issues and some ideas on how to improve it. Some concepts could even be done right now with Logix, and act as a base concept for a fully supported feature.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:56:39
content:
  Neos has a very real opportunity to bridge the gap between Second Life and VRChat, and seeing the current state of things is completely tragic. After exploring every other social VR platform that exists it's arguably the most powerful Metaverse ever created yet we have double digit user concurrency.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 17:59:06
content:
  There is no bridging SL and VRC. It was tried, and from that experience, many SL users are too directly tied to their original purchases of assets, which cannot leave the platform. It's a different demographic and wholey different market.
  Philip tried it already once, and in all the meetings that were done, it was agreed that the inability to carry over their virtual identity, even if the platform offered better improvements, was a showstopper.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:00:27
content:
  Most of the feedback that I received from VRChat users was related to a lack of intuitive UI and being unable to connect with social groups that interested them. The truth is that Neos has been very creator-focused and just hasn't been ready for end-users which I think has significantly impacted the concurrency numbers and growth. The 2022 roadmap focused on some of these issues including a re-tooling of the graphics engine by Geenz which was meant to ultimately put Neos on mobile VR devices. Unfortunately none of that ever happened and what we have now is what we had in November of 2021.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:04:45
content:
  I meant on more of a technical level, a'la being able to create in the world space vs an external IDE. I don't think the Second Life demographic itself will ever translate 1:1 especially into VR as the numbers have shown that the 35+ crowd just isn't adopting it in the same way that Gen Z and young Gen Y are.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:07:03
content:
  I recently chatted with Philip about VR HMD adoption and he also said that headsets just aren't connecting with the female demographic. Second Life's user demo is spread very evenly across the gender spectrum which I think makes it a lot more accessible. I think having a strong desktop client is equally as important as having a VR client because it increases their ability to onboard new users and also appeal to developers who are accustomed to a desktop workflow.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:09:54
content:
  well... not just with demographic concerns, but rather size, weight, and internal functionality for HMDs. His post about it is still public, but it also came at a weird time because not too long before, a major event was held and it didn't meet expectations and the shutdown of the project came shortly after.
  That being said, it did raise critical points, some of which not many platforms have even attempted to resolve, especially with virtual keyboard systems and other technical hurdles.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:11:11
content:
  Yeah outside of Neos it's just a macro-scale VR issue and it's going to take a company like Valve or Meta creating more accessible HMDs.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:17:57
content:
  That's the key thing here. Neos was fighting an uphill battle. It's now lost time it didn't have, but also it's tarnished it's already poor reputation. I don't really see it recovering from this unless something legitimately incredible happens.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:20:57
content:
  I always found the statement that Neos is "creator focussed" almost ironic given it's incredibly weak tooling. Compared to Unity (and everything that can be used in Unity) it's not even in the same solar system. Neos is *incredibly* basic when it comes to creation tools and utilities, it's like comparing MS Paint to Photoshop. If you're a serious creator and wanted to make something, there's very little reason you'd choose Neos if you were basing it on creation capability.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:22:57
content:
  Not that it'll ever happen, but I think that having a native Unity SDK in conjunction with basic in-world tools could be a major catalyst for encouraging growth and content migration from existing platforms like VRChat.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:25:09
content:
  There's a social VR platform based out of Germany called Chillout VR and it's basically a clone of pre-Udon VRChat. It has hundreds of worlds, and a lot of those are direct uploads of VRChat levels from the original creators.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:26:11
content:
  Neos has a native Unity SDK, but it was left to rot, it's barely functional. It's also only one-way. So it's basically just a glorified uploader, you can't use it to update going forward.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:26:49
content:
  I think in the future if things do work out with Neos, the in-world tools should look and feel more like The Sims than Unity. At the end of the day people want to create spaces and avatars, and the tools should be geared towards making both of those things as accessible as possible to the most amount of users.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:27:59
content:
  Imagine day-1 being able to build a house by dragging walls and clicking a paintbrush to texture them, or just 1-click dropping trees.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:29:41
content:
  Yeah Udon unfortunately did them in because porting over SDK2 triggers was a little more straight forward than their proprietary node-based scripting system.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:29:58
content:
  Chillout sold itself as being a "more performant VRC" but over time VRC updated and improved anyway, making most of the reason people were interested in CVR redundant. It basically died even before Udon.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:31:22
edit_date: 2022-06-17 20:47:50
content:
  Right but they are all user tools that you have to dig through folders after being told by a mentor where to find them and how to use them. The creation tools should be inherently part of the user interface and minimize the amount of clicks and friction between the user and building.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:31:45
content:
  That... sounds less of an internal function and more of a refinement of a mesh generation tools that could be added to Neos so that such a kit could be made. I'm not versed enough in Probuilder, but if an API system was made and a good example system came from it that people can expand on, then I can see that working, but otherwise, people will most likely stick to Blender.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:32:49
content:
  In fact, I would dare say... why not just add a bridge to Blender or Unity? Then you can use the Probuilder controls or Blender's complete functions within a VR space, and there are more explanations and guides for those than something that attempts to mimic it


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:33:48
content:
  I've been building in virtual worlds and Unity for years and Neos was not an easy system to learn. It has a long way to go before having mass-market appeal and having things like the inspector tool as an object in the inventory needs to change.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:37:02
edit_date: 2022-06-17 18:38:26
content:
  https://twitter.com/Tizzers/status/1428171917928800260 Aside from a few mesh prefabs, I built these worlds entirely within Second Life in a few weeks. In Neos something this complex would have been nearly impossible, especially without proper mesh / grid snapping / rotation tools. Something like this should be the very minimum benchmark for what in-world building should look like.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:37:29
content:
  I think that can be partly solved with an edit/build mode that unlocks shortcuts to say the inspector and the usual tool arrangement we're all used to. It could also help new users out by preventing them from accessing dev systems in error, and even then, a simple UI prompt of "You are now in edit mode, where you can adjust the settings of various components and objects." and the use of the "don't show this again" for people who know what they're doing.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 18:38:28
content:
  heck, I would even say it'd be handy to even have components that hide/show certain things based on if you are in this mode. Yes, Neos 'has' an edit mode, but the most I've seen it do is funky things to Desktop user's offhand.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 20:46:50
edit_date: 2022-06-17 20:48:59
content:
  ...wow, way to assume. They just aren't interested in VR. If I mentioned NCR to them, which I didn't, then it'd make it worse, but it didn't even need that to result in negative feedback.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 20:54:27
edit_date: 2022-06-17 20:54:40
content:
  It takes disproportionately long amounts of time to do even simple things when world building, sometimes basic actions take *exponentially* longer than they would on anything else due to the lack of even basic, day 1 functionality that you'd expect.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 20:54:38
content:
  I'm not. When building things within Unity, it's always been a case of 'setup asset and then bring into scene'. Same thing for SL and everything else


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 20:58:13
content:
  I'm not saying the tools are exactly the most majestic thing in the world (they aren't), but a good majority of what I've been seeing is over exaggeration.
  Yes, the tools need a lot of work, and if there was a way to manipulate many objects at once without having to parent them temporarily would be fantastic. However, it doesn't mean they're useless


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 21:00:09
content:
  sure, would it be neat to have say gimble rotations within Neos to make crazy rotations and positioning much easier? Absolutely! Having the ability to copy and paste parameters from components like in Unity? That'd be a time saver.
  But I haven't had the tools be a pure hindrance to whatever I need to be done.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 21:01:29
content:
  Creation tools are pretty far off on the list of things that are hurting retention. We've been down this road before, and everyone is in firm agreement with the UI system being incomplete and in a dire need of a redo, along with readjusting information to assist end-users and not just creators.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 21:04:47
edit_date: 2022-06-17 21:05:44
content:
  Terrible creation tools will absolutely be one of the main reasons for creators not sticking around. Ironically I can socialise in VRC and work in Unity at the same time, where as I can't socialise in Neos and be in one of my other Neos worlds working on it at the same time, which makes it less sociable for me.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 21:08:48
content:
  ...but before the UI layout used in 2.7x, I couldn't even remotely tolerate blender. It was just all over the place.
  I can't recall the exact version, but the one I use is 2.79, only because I prefer its interface. I can use 2.8, but it has conflicts with my space navigator, who needs an axis inverted. That, and work I do in 2.79 work fine in 2.8, but not vice versa.
  That being said, I can't argue in saying 2.8 looks great and the cycle renderer does a great job.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 21:10:05
content:
  so? I just like 2.79's look. I mostly use the UI navigation for doing things, not key bindings like in your argument.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 21:20:53
content:
  oh well. I am happy with that I deal with and the systems I use. They work for me, good or bad. If improvements come along, that's always welcomed.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 21:41:58
content:
  I'm onboard until one of the captains say the ship is to be scuttled. Until the login servers go down, I'm still keeping my eyes open. Not my first rodeo with a dying platform.


type: message
date: 2022-06-17 23:05:33
edit_date: 2022-06-17 23:08:00
content:
  why are we complaining so much about Karel not being here? Do we just want someone lording over the discussion or are we looking for stuff to complain about?


type: message
date: 2022-06-18 22:53:50
edit_date: 2022-06-19 00:29:08
content:
  Is the risk you're talking about just where there's people in the mentor program with not enough knowledge about Neos, and they might answer questions with misinformation by mistake? Or like potential bad actors in the program intentionally giving misinformation? (or both) And people who are explicitly paid and trained to do the job would be more trustworthy to give correct answers?

  Definitely interesting to think about how that could affect a small platform like Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 01:38:24
content:
  Mentors aren't seen as authoritative figures ,  they are essentially pre school teachers nothing more


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 01:42:08
content:
  Yes but only authoritative figures matter. Moderators could do harm, mentors can't really harm company , it's like a player teaching player program, you don't assume authority


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 01:45:29
content:
  They aren't, they have nothing more than user other than icon , their only purpose is teach new player and help event. Otherwise their word only mean same as any other


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 02:06:45
content:
  Inappropriate behavior in public is something unwanted in general, doing that to new players will get you removed from mentors if not more depending on severity. But company is not liable for it unless they actively hide and ignore thing like sexually inappropriate conduct, but that apply to mentor and non mentor


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 02:14:28
content:
  Moderator is more issue because misuse and disclosure of confidential information is massive easy way to destabilize trust in platform


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 10:36:13
content:
  They are doing that thing again where they harras Karel and then bitch about him replying to them.

  Looks like the village hothead, Geenz, was looking to get some shares of the company at some point.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 10:43:23
content:
  Geenz wanted more personal gain. He wants to hold shares to control Neos with Frooxius for his fluffy community


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 12:15:00
edit_date: 2022-06-19 13:21:42
content:
  Maybe Geenz didn't get what he wanted. So he destroyed Neos and oriented his community to what he wanted. He always plays the role of the victim. All his plots are to kick Karel out of Neos. It's obvious that he wants to own Neos more than anyone


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 12:21:17
edit_date: 2022-06-19 12:37:19
content:
  he slandered sneers to Karel  with his furry friends in Discord. The fur cult seems to enjoy monopoly and possessiveness, cliques, factions...


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 14:39:12
content:
  I think he put some groundwork in place for it to work later, but it's just internal engine stuff in the background that currently does nothing.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 14:39:52
content:
  IIRC they scrapped it in favour of switching to a new graphics engine entirely, which in turn also never happened.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 14:40:37
content:
  There is a working version which looks way better, but did not got implemented due to the current situation.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 14:41:10
content:
  Yeah, that was back in August last year wasn't it? I still have the CM1/2/3 builds in a folder somewhere.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 14:46:55
content:
  On a platform that until a few months before he asked for that, was basically volunteer only due to not having any money...


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 14:47:17
content:
  If Geenz was asking for 50k a year for 10 hours a week, I'm not surprised Karel would have refused, Jesus Christ.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 15:01:01
content:
  It doesn't feel like it adds up. If you were making that much ($200k+ a year, according to that) - would you demand money from a platform which was, at the time, almost entirely volunteers and had little money? (as this was early 2021?)


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 15:51:57
edit_date: 2022-06-19 17:15:11
content:
  It was implemented. The idea was to get the color management merged to improve the current unity renderer as the new engine was in progress. An alpha build was distributed to a few build teams in october to test our content in preparation for the switch over.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 16:07:02
edit_date: 2022-06-19 16:07:13
content:
  @RealEnverex If you ever feel I deal with you dishonestly or in bad faith, let me know. I respect your opinion.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:26:27
edit_date: 2022-06-19 22:57:18
content:
  I ignored this place for certain reasons for a while. To be honest, I still see those reasons justified now that I am here.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:28:09
edit_date: 2022-06-19 22:57:23
content:
  Yeah may be on my way out too, this is just kind of a platform for arguements with some actual conversation sometimes thrown in between


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:31:13
edit_date: 2022-06-19 22:57:28
content:
  more or less the same to some level. The mentality here is...concerning, and usually constructive speak is put down in favor of hypotheticals. It seems the usual talk is less about how to keep current functions operating and fixes to the many concerns talked about and more of just changing everything to be a different scope to side step the need to address the issues


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:34:41
edit_date: 2022-06-19 22:38:26
content:
  Seeing words like "cult", tossing the idea of plotting an intentional burnout of neos so one side can win, the blatant cluelessness of who would be considered some kind of "ring leader" of one side or another. I'm not seeing anything encouraging here. At all.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:37:54
edit_date: 2022-06-19 22:57:40
content:
  eh... not my first rodeo with this situation, unfortunately. The only optimism I have is the servers are running, and even that has pitfalls. It'd be great to see things get resolved, but that requires cooperation from more than just the higher ups, but also the community, and if the vocal majority are to abide by... well, you can observe the number of emoji responses going around and see how that pans out


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:42:32
edit_date: 2022-06-20 00:52:22
content:
  Watching the unhinged cultists in the Discord spending so much time hating me is absolutely giving me life. They’re pulling out all of the tired SJW playbook tropes like labeling people “N4zi, gr0omer, p3do, etc” in a stereotypical and eye-rolling last hail mary at character assassination because they are getting desperate - and know that they are about to lose this 8 month long temper tantrum. In the end it only further tarnishes the optics of the furry fandom and the Neos project itself.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:43:42
edit_date: 2022-06-19 22:59:52
content:
  ...except it wasn't the discord... and to our above, we have the usual "it's all them, because of course" example...


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:45:29
edit_date: 2022-06-19 23:00:04
content:
  anyone can join the discord and anyone can join the telegram. If that's the case, then anyone of any subgroup can be claimed as a representative. Hell, we can even drag the Anonymous argument, in where everyone is Anonymous, or can claim to be, and thus serve as an excellent scapegoat.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 22:58:51
content:
  It's really weird and not quite something I've seen before, just sort of shows immaturity I suppose.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:01:11
edit_date: 2022-06-19 23:01:31
content:
  Oh that's funny, sounds like it only was one single post and everyone they were agree that they didn't want to be involved with it. So because one person joined the discord, then post it that, it suddenly that discord groups fault?


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:02:47
content:
  I believe that there are some that are willing to talk about things here but this place is not really in a good state


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:03:34
content:
  Of course, ban someone who doesn't agree with you, despite having previous experience in other areas.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:04:37
content:
  Consider I could say directly reported to Philip Rosedale, I believe I might have a little bit better standing then, I don't know, some random individual who has a extreme fascination with excrement emojis


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:05:38
content:
  Again, I did more than that, but whatever. This group is meant for the discussion of Neos , but apparently it's more of "let's get rid of furries because it's ruining the platform"


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:07:35
content:
  Considering I was actually working towards something that would have done well, or at least it was perceived to have been, that isn't really all that silly after all


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:11:40
edit_date: 2022-06-19 23:12:17
content:
  Besides, I am very true in that I am fairly neutral in this situation. Karel has provided support directly to me when I had a botched transaction. Hearing all the tales of people having problems is something new to me, considering he went well above what was expected to help my problem.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:14:11
content:
  Wierd, some days ago you guys wanted to ban people for background checking and telling how insane it was


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:17:57
edit_date: 2022-06-19 23:18:04
content:
  Sadly, there has not been any constructive discussions in this entire group. Whenever they get started, they immediately get derailed


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:20:56
edit_date: 2022-06-19 23:21:10
content:
  Hence why I am not presently responding to them, despite they pretending to redirect what I said toward flame soulis arbitrarily.


type: message
date: 2022-06-19 23:26:29
content:
  I mean in the long run, I've been around since before Most people in neos and the crypto community, so...


type: message
date: 2022-06-20 15:40:51
content:
  Well, if there was any question as to whether things are getting better, I guess that gives a solid "no".


type: message
date: 2022-06-20 16:46:53
content:
  If Geenz really thinks the code is on their hand, why really bother Karel.
  they can do everything they want if thats true


type: message
date: 2022-06-20 18:44:15
edit_date: 2022-06-20 18:44:29
content:
  It's in the hands of the administration company that took possession of River Venture's assets, AFAIK.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:39:45
content:
  This is how I've always felt about it, and its conveniently something you can just shout over people with


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:45:00
edit_date: 2022-06-21 04:44:52
content:
  well that's the tactic. To attack anyone who says the opposite and run them out of the discord, then spread out on places like reddit/twitter and try to push a cartoonish narrative and hope misinformation can just persist


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:46:01
content:
  that's always been what's going on, and the Neos team is incredibly efficient at encouraging their devotees to do the purposefully slanted message for them


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:46:22
content:
  they've always been good at getting them to say what they really think as well, without having to say it


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:49:40
content:
  They used that method to attack NCR early on while having some childish idea that it makes them not responsible


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:50:06
content:
  And yeah it's fortunate no one is an actual employee and also everyone is spread out and also no one really uses their real names


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:50:42
content:
  Everything points to that it wasn't being operated like an actual company, or if it was the only person really doing so was Karel


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 00:55:47
edit_date: 2022-06-21 01:08:56
content:
  So there's company obligations... fine and all, they don't have to be obligated to anyone for anything... except that they're trying to take ownership of the company WHILE having no responsibility to the company they want ownership of


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 01:26:39
content:
  What happened with Neos isn't particularly unique. There was an article just last week in The Intercept (pretty left-leaning publication) about how woke activists are destroying non-profits from within, cannibalizing their leadership, and completely immobilizing organizations from their actual missions


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 01:28:24
content:
  https://theintercept.com/2022/06/13/progressive-organizing-infighting-callout-culture/ read this and was constantly reminded of the Neos situation


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 02:30:45
edit_date: 2022-06-21 03:15:06
content:
  These corporate saboteurs also weaponize and abuse terms like "N4zi" ad nauseam to the point of it minimizing the problem of actual N4zis.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 03:38:53
edit_date: 2022-06-21 04:56:53
content:
  I'm wondering... How much do people think complacency and being a bystander to this situation (which is what I believe most people are) cause others who have a louder voice to believe that these people are on a certain side of the discussions? (Basically saying the people who talk believe the people who aren't talking are on their side. Do you think this is the case?)

  Mainly asking because I feel bad about not sharing my opinions, and also worried about the responses I'll get if I do share.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 05:55:12
edit_date: 2022-06-21 09:45:51
content:
  The furry community's hostility towards Karel is just too terrible. There will be no reconciliation 
  It is possible that Karel was forced to fire many of the furs that were working for Neos. If not. Neos won't be able to grow for long


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 10:36:52
content:
  Ask yourself if it is worth it before you pick your hill to die on. Demanding intellectual honesty will lose you friends fast.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 10:42:12
edit_date: 2022-06-21 10:45:40
content:
  And I was never trying to demand anything? I'm really confused about what you took away from my message. If you're reading what I'm typing in Discord, I just want to make sure that discussions over a situation that I'm completely sick of, don't turn uncivil (or what I believe to be uncivil. Maybe that's where the disagreement in my actions is coming from?). Or at least try to.

  And the friends that I have know me for me, and would not disappear due to doing something like this. If they do, they are not the best of friends.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 10:50:48
edit_date: 2022-06-21 19:11:20
content:
  I may have misinterpreted. But it seemed like you were having anxiety over people being dishonest in their discussions of the situation and that you feared backlash and people assuming you were on one side or the other if you called them out on it.

  People who are willing to be dishonest with their take to make themselves feel better or to try to win an argument don't like to be called out. All I was saying is it might not be worth it.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 11:36:57
content:
  ah okay. It was more fear of not saying anything would make people assume I'm on a side. Probably just me having some irrational thoughts


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 16:53:07
content:
  Is Khosumi claiming that stuff doesn't happen? Someone literally sent me a picture of Veer (the CMO) getting their dick sucked in Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 17:01:17
edit_date: 2022-06-21 17:01:58
content:
  Why would that mater if it's in private between consenting adults? I do not understand this sex scandal mentality. And why are people sending you these things?! I hope they got permission first, that's just rude.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 17:12:59
content:
  I'm against zero tolerance policies, personally. I'd stick with corrective action and if that fails a clear and defined escalation path up to and including removal from their role.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 17:18:17
content:
  It's too easy to weaponize zero tolerance policies. I'd agree, breach of consent should be a deal breaker, but I'm not willing to extend that to general guideline violation or other ambiguous cases.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 17:20:37
content:
  I gave you something to react to. You're very good at that! One may even go so far as to say you're a consummate reactionary.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 19:08:10
content:
  We are investors. We have all the money, positions and careers. It's funny compared to the fluffy guys


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 20:01:59
content:
  lol could you imagine the reaction if Karel had been involved in a nonconsensual sexual encounter on the platform


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 20:04:06
content:
  would we be having the same nuanced discussions about the potential considerations of a zero-tolerance policy?


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 20:47:55
edit_date: 2022-06-22 07:41:54
content:
  The irony is that the so called investors are investing in what was a planned currency for a marketplace system. Effectively, it just means once the market even makes an ounce of progress, they'll pull out, having made their earnings, resulting in the value exchanged within the marketplace to plumet.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 20:49:54
content:
  Do miss the earlier days where some people who did invest tried what they were investing in. A small group made a really cool museum devoted to cryptocurrencies, and were pushing the software to some really neat limits.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 21:13:19
content:
  yep. i did this too. wanted to have a buffer fund for bankrolling future projects on the jobs board. still sitting on 2k ncr actually :P
  Elysium got hit hard by this too, as they were operating partly on NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 23:08:43
content:
  my load up is from patreon funds. Still have roughly 1.5k NCR. Sold some L$ when exchanges looked right, but most of that went to now having basically a healthy storage amount without needing to upkeep a subscription.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 23:10:17
content:
  that being said, I've been burned on the anticipation system. I lucked out, since what I did put into was hardware for what was hopefully the big VR metaverse boom whene everyone was on that hype train. It did repay itself back and then some, but with how it all worked out, it was not rock solid enough that'd I'd wager like that again.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 23:21:57
content:
  I've still got a load of NCR from Patreon and CDFT but I didn't bail when it peaked as I was new to crypto and didn't want to screw anything up. So yeah, was nice to see it become virtually worthless after people in the know cashed out at the right time. Especially people that appeared out of no-where...


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 23:27:33
content:
  That's okay. Back during the bHaptics event in 2021, I attempted to exchange NCR so that I could buy more haptic gear, which would have been a really nice turnaround after the event.
  And that's how I ended up speaking with Karel about older stuff and getting the support to fix the transaction as much as possible. Didn't work out too well (RIP ~1500 NCR, will have to check), but no big deal.


type: message
date: 2022-06-21 23:28:56
content:
  Still did get the gear though. Head peice is not worth it, but the arm ones aren't too bad. Need like sweat bands to help hold them in place, but they are fairly immersive


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 00:01:55
edit_date: 2022-06-22 00:02:07
content:
  Are you able to determine autism from text? Because medical diagnosis from text would be a breakthrough


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 15:36:23
content:
  I wanna have the same opinion as you, but there's a big divide between that kind of behavior and your company/staff being taken seriously in people's eyes, unfortunately.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 15:37:39
edit_date: 2022-06-22 16:07:32
content:
  I'm gonna generalize but sometimes it feels like furries spend so much time mired in being freely sexual with one another that they seem to not understand a perspective of that being seen as weird by others.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 15:39:13
content:
  I'd assume anywhere else would rather I did that stuff on an account that's not associated with my company persona.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 16:42:01
content:
  The devils in the details really, and there's an issue of degree. A more accurate example to your frankly ridiculous ones is if someone was detailing their sex life on the same twitter account they use to talk to their company's customers. With pictures.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 16:42:10
content:
  Maybe these specific pictures aren't supposed to be made public, if they even exist, but again it's an issue of degree where furries don't see a problem with being hyper affectionate and sexual with one another publicly, and they seem to be so used to it they don't understand why people might find it weird.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 16:43:11
edit_date: 2022-06-22 16:45:14
content:
  comparing it to buying someone a drink at a bar... It's more comparable to a picture getting leaked of you getting your dick sucked in the bar's bathroom, and that pic circulating amongst your colleagues


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 16:46:30
content:
  I frankly don't care that much, but I just question why they wouldn't want to do that stuff under a different persona... and I imagine there's a degree of power at play as well in these sexual encounters.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 16:49:41
content:
  In that case, it's more comparable to a WoW GM having some cybersex in Deeprun Tram when it's after hours.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 16:58:55
edit_date: 2022-06-22 16:59:28
content:
  It's abit less an issue of "professional vs private life" for me more of a community power dynamic issue. When sex is involved, I don't see how we can't just see issues in that.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 17:07:25
content:
  I just like... don't know if these public figures really can be taken seriously when they're yiffing members of their community while under their "company" personas. And I imagine who wouldn't mind maintaining this status quo because it gives quite thrilling leverage in social situations when they have their Developer tag flirting with someone


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 17:08:01
edit_date: 2022-06-22 17:08:17
content:
  Then again for all I know this never happens and the instance of this (supposed) picture is between people who've been aquaintences for many years or whatever.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 21:58:02
content:
  Honestly that is a legitimate concern. It's also one of the reasons I usually advocate for more decentralization, and why I ultimately want to see the project take on a more federated organization. As long as there is a centralized authority over these maters the threat of favoritism is not easily overlooked.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 22:03:51
edit_date: 2022-06-22 22:04:21
content:
  We can't overlook the weird emphasis that we place on certain kinds of relationships when it comes to considering the institutional effects they have and disentangling those power relations gets weird. I am not sure how to approach that while still acknowledging that the underlying social causes for that emphasis are still things I find wrong. I just try to be consistant in questioning what I view as unjust hierarchies and hope that ends up at a more fair and equitable conclusion.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 22:16:11
content:
  I want to live in a way that I feel is genuine. I really, really resist the idea that I have to segment out my existence for the benefit of greater social norms. I don't know how to square that with the legitimate point of the power relations of those realms being inequitable. I will have to think on this more :/


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 22:31:29
content:
  That part i'll respectfully disagree with. I'm still quite adamant about pushing to adopt more progressive policies. Marketable or not, as long as they are justified.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 22:50:03
content:
  It boils down to Neos as a platform being a Theme park, people don't live in here and its not real life.  It's an escape from real life.  If you work for the theme park you're not allowed to fuck the guests.  Because if you hold any kind of authority be it Admin, moderator, or even a volunteer position, then all it takes it to try it with the wrong person and you bring negative attention to the platform or even legal liability in some cases.  On top of that there is power disparity.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 22:57:15
content:
  Like the number 2 reason given for people who have tried neos and never returned is someone acted inappropriate toward them.  So I really don't see a down side to zero tolerance other than horny people angry they can't be horny anymore.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:33:32
content:
  Not completely, though. There is a mentioning of compatability, but the full partnership was to allow direct linking akin to how it works with VRC, where RPM uploads on the user's behalf. In the case of Neos, it'd be that the avatar would populate within your inventory from the website actions alone.
  Of course, this never was finished because I don't think an API was made for such actions. I forget who I asked about this, but that was more or less the explaination


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:34:03
content:
  that being said, RPM avatars do import just fine... but the rigging is in dire need of help, even for pre-made.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:35:22
content:
  No, I mean like officially. It's just on Neos' end they never bothered actually implementing anything to handle it gracefully.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:37:58
content:
  I was talking about the im0plementation because as I understand it the official partnership happened in Dec.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:39:11
content:
  naw. I gave it a try far earlier and that's when I asked why Neos wasn't in the top part with official support, despite appearing in the lower list.


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:40:15
content:
  that being said, totally did revisit their site in December to see what had changed, including seasonal outfits, which was ammusing


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:42:53
content:
  I mean, if we want to go on the discussion of no excuses, lack of VRM support due to there being no licensing options to match their proposed features... when virtually no one has any integration of said VRM licensing rules... is kind of silly


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:43:17
content:
  such integration would mean users can just drag an drop their avatar and not even need to deal with the avatar creator


type: message
date: 2022-06-22 23:53:49
edit_date: 2022-06-23 00:10:59
content:
  Yeah, this pissed a lot of people off, especially as other platforms support it without any matching licence setup.


type: message
date: 2022-06-23 00:11:58
content:
  That and there's no way to really enforce it. If I have the file, I can just load it into an editor and remove it. The group working on the format, which is supposed to be universal and open source, never really got that all finished. It is no more than a checkbox, honestly


type: message
date: 2022-06-23 09:10:05
content:
  You can build an avatar picker for people to use. That's the beauty of Neos, you can build anything on top of it


type: message
date: 2022-06-23 18:35:36
content:
  Hi everyone! I've been involved in crypto / VR since DK1 days and a neosvr user for a few years. I work on public research, webxr, and metaverse interop, can see projects on xrdevlog.com. Nice to meet ya'll here :)


type: message
date: 2022-06-23 18:36:41
edit_date: 2022-06-23 18:47:33
content:
  I see ya'll talking about VRM, if you google "avatar interoperability" you should see my dev logs as one of the first results


type: message
date: 2022-06-23 18:40:22
edit_date: 2022-06-23 18:41:06
content:
  Oh yeah! I remember seeing your article about that. It was one of the reasons I began looking more into VRM as a result


type: message
date: 2022-06-23 20:08:05
edit_date: 2022-06-24 22:41:08
content:
  Holy hell I was being facetious, and I was commenting on how ridiculous the NSFW furry brigade is being over Karel not wanting staff to engage in that activity.   This chat, I swear to god.


type: message
date: 2022-06-24 23:17:51
content:
  I googled this and got references to the mpeg-v standard which I didn't know existed. On a related note: why is there an Mpeg standard for this? XD


type: message
date: 2022-06-24 23:20:32
content:
  just looked it up. It's pretty interesting if I'm reading it right:
  The general idea is that it doesn't just store traditional media, but also sensory response information and additional data. In short, you can store that a recorded virtual scene had a heat response in a specific location and be able to replay it back with that exact information.
  A bit like the brain dance stuff from Cyberpunk 2077, if you will.


type: message
date: 2022-06-26 09:28:54
content:
  Probably nothing? Some join from hearing about the crypto stuff some find it from the website. Some might get invited or just random bots? Not aware of any recent happenings otherwise


type: message
date: 2022-06-27 20:19:06
content:
  Board of Advisors meetings were canceled as of February and I was told that March would not occur either, so I dropped off the board. Afaik, there has not been a meeting since as I was not asked to rejoin or attend a rescheduled meeting from February.


type: message
date: 2022-06-29 19:59:46
content:
  Geenz clarified that he was asking for $50k for 10 hours a week (some people thought it was a miscommunication, so putting this here to clarify). https://www.reddit.com/r/NeosVR/comments/vi8sul/are_they_still_working_on_the_crypto_token_or/ie0bkes/


type: message
date: 2022-06-29 20:02:38
content:
  He also confirms he was looking for equity in the company. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/640736570047201281/991795813485383720/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-06-29 21:05:24
content:
  We're nearly 9 months in and everyone's still at each other's throats. Whatever eventually happens isn't going to be good. Unfortunately Neos has become an emotional, monetary and time write-off for me, I see almost no chance of anything going well.


type: message
date: 2022-06-29 21:33:36
content:
  I just go wherever and try to enjoy myself. Neos is interesting to me because of the ability to spin up blank canvases and just do whatever. I've figured out some handy stuff because of it


type: message
date: 2022-06-29 21:53:00
content:
  Where's the strawman? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/670831631778709514/991823569816399922/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 03:25:16
content:
  The fact that there is *still* a need to smear this fantasy all over the internet is truly bizzare and the first message is simply a hogwash, pardon my language. 

  Possibly the only valid part of that comment is that Karel had no part in routinely “bonding and hanging out”.  Since he was far to busy to actually run the company - businesses don’t just emanate from the thin air and run themselves, despite of what some people think.
  And moreover, it’s quite hard to even accomodate all timezone differences, if you still want to have at least some personal life left, outside the platform. (Yes, it exists, trust me).


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 03:25:34
edit_date: 2022-06-30 08:29:00
content:
  I won’t go into the debate about this further as I feel like a broken record. 
  If people feel the need to still harbour such hatered, that is their choice. We keep going and there is no intention of “dropping” the project. 
  We love Neos, we love our users, we feel their frustration and that is why we just keep on going rather than wasting energy on endless debates and arguments. 
  Announcements will be made when the time comes. In the meantime there are endless ways how Neos continues to give joy its users, it provides much sought after innovation to businesses, educators and we are doing our utmost best to make sure that they can carry on with their activities, despite of how difficult that is to even communicate with the current team, that has somehow made it their lifetime quest to fight “Evil Karel”.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 03:25:52
content:
  If this sounds to you like some very long bad comedy, rather than a business development, you are right.
  However that won’t be the case forever. Any business is built on culture and people that you can trust. That is possibly something we can agree on. It’s just sad we were not able to see head to head on much else, including keeping timelines, work progress and task management. The normal things that every business needs in order to scale up and grow.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 03:27:07
edit_date: 2022-06-30 03:30:20
content:
  I have understanding and patience for people and their somewhat rich personalities, god knows we all have things to work on when it comes to social interactions, but it makes incredibly difficult and challenging to work with someone who can lash out at the slightest instance. So while I had no personal issues with Geenz, I would not necessarily build a team around them, no matter how genius or gifted that person is. 
  Ed Catmull puts it wonderfully - “My job as a manager is to create a fertile environment, keep it healthy, and watch for the things that undermine it.” 
  I can only agree as even just one person who is not a good fit can disrupt the whole dynamic. That is nothing against them personally. I am sure they are lovely and actually from those few interactions we had, I thought they are a really nice person. But it’s about professionalism in business. And I don’t want people who use threats, bad languade and agression as a part on their normal communication on my team. (Again nobody is a saint here before you jump on this, I am just saying that there is a level of what is acceptable and this is too much.)


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 05:38:04
content:
  To me at least I feel this situation now boils down to whether people believe in Neos, the platform, or the people currently behind Neos. And who follows who after this whole thing. Because people who follow the platform are very uncertain about whether it'll ever continue past its current existence, and people who are following the current team are worried about that team not having a platform to build.

  I could see some outcomes where if Karel gets his way, the direction of the platform could be more certain/concrete (although I haven't seen him in action very much, so I'm not fully sure if that could be the case). Also there could be another outcome where if the team gets their way, the team might snap back in to action and form a concrete business strategy.

  And then even if either situation occurs, and the respective party is successful, the people who are following what they beleive in would be what matters the most, due to that being a majority factor in what drives a platform AND community like Neos's.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 06:08:25
content:
  Looking at the Steam analytics, it only bled users starting around February 2022, 2021 was the best year for Neos and the growth happened year long, not just during the NCR boom.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 06:10:39
content:
  My point being, the platform was growing and releasing features regularly, BEPUv2, the LNL upgrade, new Logix Nodes, performance and hardware support, stability etc - all improved significantly in 2021.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 06:14:19
content:
  Patreon earnings reduced 3 months before Neos experienced a reduction in the average daily users on the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 06:15:11
content:
  IE, the NCR dropping and uncertainty was the reason Patreon decreased, and it wasn't until February when a reduction of daily uses occurred


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 06:16:46
content:
  Oh, I think I interpreted users in your message as platform users and not patreon users. Yes, in that case Patreon did bleed users starting December 1st, but the platform didn't experience a reduction in daily users until February 2022


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 06:20:33
content:
  But I very much agree with your comment about Neos succeeding, no matter who is leading the effort, someone very strategic with very good leadership qualities and business expertise is needed to drive the product.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 07:28:26
content:
  Expect to get called out on hypocrisy. There were plenty of cryptoshills creating puppet accounts on the Discord and engaging in circular logic loops while disregarding people putting holes in their reasoning.

  So if your takes seem like that and you don't have reasonable arguments backing them up, you should expect being grouped up with them.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 07:30:31
content:
  Also this is the natural outcome of dividing the community on different channels and platfofms and ostrasizing the original Discord group by zvoiding any meaningful discussions and giving reasonable answers.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 08:04:33
content:
  I don't think we should be justifying tendencies to stereotype. I genuinely do not agree with @morolian on quite a lot, but they do at least deserve pointed and specific criticism: Like making me want to scream every time I saw their name for like two months because they managed a Unicode among us reference. 

  There are, I'm sure, other points of criticism but that one seems the most agredious.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 08:41:13
content:
  I'm not trying to justify it or say it's the right thing to do. 

  I'm just pointing out the reasons it happens and why you should expect it if you can't engage in a discussion with good arguments defending your points.

  I'm sure this whole debacle has played a role in raising tensions on both sides and thus lead to a lot of short fused blaming.

  But that doesn't justify letting actions or inactions slide. There will be consequences like loss of Patreon subscibers and trust until we see action to mend the situation.

  Until then expect the tensions, distrust and short tempers to stay.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 09:20:38
content:
  Pretty obvious the team just want money. Sad to see them sabotage the project after Karel didn’t give in to their demands


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 09:25:08
content:
  Hey, I don't want Money.

  I've never asked for money. 

  This dispute is NOT about money. Please stop on the money track.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 11:34:10
edit_date: 2022-06-30 12:50:08
content:
  It definitely seemed like it was about money with Geenz. With some incredibly unreasonable requests for such a tiny project with so few members supported almost entirely by Patreon.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:12:44
content:
  I really disagree with you on this.

  Geenz explained his position in reddit well enough.

  It isn't unreasonable for the ICO money to have gone to proper fulltime employment of the current team, rather than buybacks.

  But apparently following what was stated in the original whitepaper isn't something a tiny project can do.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:17:33
content:
  Keep in mind the *entire* grant that Solirax got to run Neos on in the first place was only like $250k and Geenz wanted $200k A YEAR!


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:18:45
content:
  For 10 hours a week. Which is still an outrageous request for such a small project supported entirely by users on Patreon!


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:18:53
content:
  So basically they couldn't afford to hire him full or part time at the market price he was receiving at his current employment. 

  Yet he still worked on color spaces and bothered to learn Froox engine on a volunteer basis in his free time.

  So it's unfortunately all that means is they couldn't afford to hire him at the time.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:23:08
content:
  Not at all, I think it speaks to the character of the person. To me it seems like he was trying to milk the project for all he could. The fact he then jumped to equity makes me even less trusting.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:31:24
content:
  I can't speak for him about the equity part, for all the good that would do him as Froox can attest.

  It could be him having a big enough interest in the project to try and steer it's direction, but you can't divine if his reasons were entirely selfish or selfless.

  Do you think equity in the project is worth the risk of it failing and yoh not getting anything out of it?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:33:18
content:
  I'm sure if you asked any Patreons that cancelled their subscriptions they'd agree the current situation is too precarious to invest.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:34:10
content:
  My point is that it was negotiating in the wrong direction. You can argue for equity when putting a *massive* investment into the project. Both the 200k request and the request for equity for dev work on a project which was almost entirely volunteers at the time and entirely user donation supported are both madness. Requesting equity also gives the impression of trying to control the business in some way.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:34:52
content:
  I'm sure people would also question their Patreon funding if they found out such a massive amount would have been going to a single person in a project that liked to flaunt how grass roots it was a lot of the time.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:41:11
content:
  🤷‍♂ this situation is a mess and I'm waiting for a joint statement from Froox and Karel. 

  Without Geenz explaining his reasoning or someone else on the team backing him up and his character I can't be certain of his intentions. But I doubt he'd have stayed to work for free if he wasn't interested in the project itself rather than the $$

  The only thing I can reasonably sure is that without Froox there wouldn't have been a Neos, and he still has kept Geenz part of the team.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:48:04
content:
  Also the segregation of the community in Discord and here has led to some serious tribalism. It was a big mistake creating this Telegram.

  As it stands people from both sides can't defend themselves or have a civil discussion and we've ended up with quoting each other and isolating ourselves in our respective groups.

  That's no way to reach any agreement or see the other side's point of view.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:50:12
edit_date: 2022-06-30 12:52:32
content:
  The Discord is a waste of time, it's full of mindless zealots who've lost any ability to think for themselves. It was painful to be in there any longer with a complete lack of critical thought. But it's not really surprising given that the people that remain are die-hard Neos users who don't go or use anything else, there's zero objectivity.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:53:05
content:
  Splitting the community and refusing to provide answers to the place where the majority of users communicate is hardly conductive to being more objective.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:54:30
edit_date: 2022-06-30 12:55:04
content:
  Are you surprised Karel just ignored the Discord after 99.9% of the comments directed to him there were just insults? Why would anyone bother with it at that point. He did continue talking there for a while after it became almost entirely insults for a while at least. I'd be surprised if anyone would stick around at that point.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 12:55:04
content:
  Also I wouldn't say this channel is "splitting the community" when there's like 5 active users, most of which are in the Discord anyway and the remaining ones are NCR holders who don't seem that bothered about the game anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:04:49
content:
  I'm not surprised at all. That doesn't mean it was the right call to further the divide. It has only exacerbated the situation when the main complaint was lack of communication and announcements in the proper channels in the 1st place.

  Karel and Andrea are the ones who have decided that this place is their main point of contact.

  It's their choice, but I see it doing more harm that explaining their decisions so far and offering their perspective on events.

  At the very least it is a showing that they don't want to be a part of the social platform where the majority of the community of the product they run are.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:05:31
content:
  It's not their main point of contact anymore, they disappeared some time ago. God knows what they're doing at this point.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:16:47
content:
  I'm fully expecting to get banned here just for asking too many questions or just stating my point of view.

  I expect any criticism brought up here to be ignored, and the silent standstill to continue.

  But I think you'd agree with me that Karel has dropped too many balls to take him seriously, at least when it comes to explaining his actions and reasoning.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:18:34
content:
  The buybacks and some of the other things were very questionable, but when it seems like all the people that work for you and their entourage are against you and are sabotaging their own project, then I expect things to get very messy, very quickly.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:20:46
edit_date: 2022-06-30 20:26:11
content:
  I think the crux of it comes down to Karel not knowing how to handle a lot of the scenarios that came up, and the people that "worked" for Solirax being a band of random people and friends that at no point treated it like a business or job and appeared to turn very hostile when anything was treated like an actual business. A lot of what I've seen screams that most the people involved have never worked a real job, never worked for a company and I'm not sure would ever last doing a normal job. It's like those shows you see about startups that implode the moment anything gets serious.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:21:40
content:
  But who the fuck knows what's going on behind closed doors. All I know is that members of the team hate each other and the team have cut off their nose to spite their face, basically killing the platform in the process. Leaving me both very upset and very angry.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:35:20
content:
  The way I see it, it would have happened no matter what. It's better that it gets resolved now and we have a transparent discussion on how we're moving forward or end it here and restart.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:40:45
content:
  The same chance as Karel offering Neos users to cash out their in game NCR via PayPal.

  If you haven't minted or got NCR via Patreon you should be glad there are so many buybacks funneling the value of yhe ICO back so tjat you can cash out.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:45:13
content:
  He already Ignored the Discord long before, or to be more precise. He was not to be seen at all in the community.
  I were already wondering who Karel is when I joined neos back then, because we never saw any message of him (except the NCR posts when it began to take off) or any activity inside neos too.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:46:14
content:
  I mean, he was the CEO, not a player. Why would he play Neos? You think everyone that works on VRChat plays VRChat?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:46:42
content:
  Karel was approachable back then, I spoke to him on several occasions, he just had no reason to talk in the Discord normally.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:48:52
content:
  Right. What other reason would he have for interacting with a bunch of furries and let's be honest, a lot of strange people in the Discord of a platform that he doesn't use? I don't see why this is a negative point. Froox didn't chat in Discord much and it even got to the point where the team were isolating him so much that I would get TOLD OFF by the team for even trying to talk to Froox about things that literally only he knew.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:58:03
content:
  What I would have expected from Karel is something more that ICO minting batch updates. (which haven't been updated in yhe last 3 months or more on the site).

  Isn't it reasonable to expect more progress and news about NCR automation and stability, when working on the crypto side was one of his main responsibilities?

  He still labels anything that quesions how well NCR has done it's job at providing funds for development from the ICO or as a stable currency for trading as FUD.

  Nevermind that it's a reasonable question how something so volatile and linked to outside exhanges can be used in a marketplace without negatively affe ting it.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:59:34
edit_date: 2022-06-30 13:59:50
content:
  A volatile currency being used for a marketplace was something I raised before the NCR boom and was shouted down by the Neos diehards. Of course they turned on a dime to "NCR bad!" as soon as the Karel event started and rewrote history to be "the team never wanted NCR, it was all Karel, no-one else ever supported it" which was obviously not true and is one of the main reasons I don't trust any of them anymore.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 13:59:45
content:
  Both the sum and, when a company can't afford that sum, taking the option of a mix of salary and equity is pretty normal in startups. By contrast volunteer development work for a for profit enterprise is basically unheard of. Mostly because it's not actually legal.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:06:12
edit_date: 2022-06-30 14:10:14
content:
  I can see where you are coming from. I don't expect people to spend time on a platform that can dissappear at any point, no matter how much promise it has.

  I'm surprised we're bleeding only around a  100 Patreons per month.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:24:37
content:
  I'm confused by this argument, given he was at the table it seems obvious he was seen as a contributor. But it's ultimately immaterial. The quoted compensation was scaled for his level of experience. He showed the expected level of flexibility in methods of compensation. I find the position that this is somehow unreasonable to not be grounded in an expectation of fair labor practices.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:26:46
edit_date: 2022-06-30 14:27:07
content:
  Which, I will point out, seems to be the core issue for the team. Not salary per say, but the practices that gave rise to these confrontations.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:27:30
content:
  It wasn't scaled, he wanted $200k a year which he quoted as the going rate for Seattle (despite the fact that Neos is based in Czechia, not Seattle...). The "scaling" was down to $50k, but that was at 1/4 the hours. So that wasn't scaling. He didn't drop his price at all.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:28:04
content:
  That's like saying I'll pay you 1/4 the price for 1/4 of the product. That's not a reduction at all...


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:29:28
content:
  Why would he? You ask for what you are worth and factor in intangibles when you set your own bottom line. That's like the basics of salary negotiation.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:30:31
edit_date: 2022-06-30 14:32:16
content:
  At a normal company. Why is Neos/Solirax being treated like a normal, solid business with hundreds or thousands of employees and not a project limping along on Patreon donations and a skeleton team?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:32:22
content:
  A for profit is a for profit. Why should there be an expectation that their relationship with their employees is allowed to be exploitative because they are not doing well?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:34:35
content:
  Reasonable, not exploitive. If I'd have learned that a single person on the dev team was being paid $200k a year, I'd have pulled all my Patreon funding immediately.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:37:22
content:
  Because we're trapped in a timeloop since the beginning of the year and no one is willing to admit fault to break it?

  Seriously though. Money is just part of an employee needs to put up with a job. You have to factor in treatment and working conditions and in this case since it's a project based on vision, compatible views on where you're supposed to be headed , discussion and compromises.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:37:44
content:
  Enverex, getting free labor for your for profit business is exploitative. Balking when you are asked to compensate the workers you are illegally already receiving work from is just indicative of other issues.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:41:24
content:
  Sorry for shouting but Americans thinking their rules and laws apply outside the US *constantly* is something which has worn me down so much over the years, it's really, really annoying.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:42:56
content:
  Is Geenz banned here, because I'd like to hear his take on why he would have accepted equity? Can you even pay for your expenses with that?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:44:15
content:
  But anyway, he wasn't asked to work for free, he was offered $1500p/m wasn't he? That's far from free.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:44:35
content:
  And given that it's a project where most others are volunteers and the project has little cash, seems reasonable.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:52:01
content:
  But as a wider reaching question - aren't community moderators unpaid on most platforms? How is that legal then?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 14:53:40
content:
  I guess in those cases it's because no-one is actually employed, they don't officially work for anyone.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 15:27:19
content:
  Unclear. The translations of the relevant law I can find do not give a clear exemption for volunteer work from their minimum wage statutes, nor do they define volunteer labor as a category. (https://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/ELECTRONIC/74435/81657/F933037295/CZE74435%20Eng.pdf)


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 15:36:33
content:
  https://ia902808.us.archive.org/24/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.314303/gov.uscourts.nysd.314303.54.34.pdf


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 15:46:26
content:
  I remember the context of this statement. It was in regards to Veer et al. stopping sending in their invoices when the strike started, not suggested remuneration to the unpaid development staff.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 16:00:52
content:
  I do not. Though I consider it community service, there is an argument to be had that I should seek compensation.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 16:13:58
content:
  Arguably :) I considered the mentor program meaningfully separate from Neos' organizational structure until recently TBH. We still do operate mostly independently but there have been some things that have made me draw a clearer dotted line in the mental org chart.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 16:58:44
edit_date: 2022-06-30 17:01:32
content:
  YES YOU CAN, it's called working pro Bono and there are even tax exemptions for it in multiple countries like the entirety of the EU and North America, parts of east Asia, you can't provide the same duties as other full time employee or act as replacement for one who was let go, or perform duties as an intern in that regard that don't offer full benefit of training and education,  but you for sure have the individual right to make the decision as a contractor to take a job offering or not, or do provide your services Pro Bono.  But you very Much can volunteer your time for a profit company.  I 

  YOU ARE NOT AN ATTORNEY  (barrister in this specific case) .  you neither have the skills, knowledge or appropriate training to interpret the law, so please stop trying to because there are probably a dozen or so other relevant labor laws based on geographic interpretation and the amount of work.  On top of that the PROVISION you citied here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/39/section/44  applies to VOLUNTEER WORKERS AT NON-Profits and covers what they are and are not entitled to. Nothing more and nothing less.  It's more to prevent people from seeking undue compensation from non-profits than it is to punish for -profits for labor exploitation.  In fact nothing of the latter is even related in that provision or covered.  And completely skipping In fact if you had read that law in its entirety  fact that in that very same Law, there is a provision covering exclusion of of certain classes of person, one of which is Agency workers (that's Brit talk for Contractor).

  Its a disingenuous narrative and your spreading misinformation.  Please stop googling and cherry picking things like this.  It only makes you look foolish


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 17:03:47
content:
  It's not spicy, it's just correcting blatantly wrong information, it was neither an attack on them or their opinion.  But making claims that there was a violation of law then presenting a law that has little or nothing to ddo with the situation needs to be called out.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 17:05:56
content:
  Pro Bono work is volunteer work. I'm not sure what your tirade is about, but what is the last time someone pro Bono represented a for profit business? That's the exemption from the minimum wage laws. If you'd like to find an exemption from the minimum wage laws that applies to for profits, go ahead. I am not a lawyer, but this is the consistant interpretation from pretty much every resource I have found or been handed as a volunteer organizer.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 17:09:11
content:
  Pro bono work IS NOT VOLUNTEER WORK.   People work pro bono at FOR_PROFITS ALL THE TIME.  It has nothing to do with Non-profits.  PRO Bono just means IN MANNER WITHOUT A FEE.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 17:09:34
content:
  Not to mention there is literally case law regarding this situation with AOL and several early MMOs, including Ultima.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 17:14:55
content:
  No, which is why I am not making baseless accusations and spreading misinformation and false narratives and attempting to back said info up as an am chair attorney.  But am an independant contractor, I have been for ten years and I have done pro bono work for people and businesses that are for profit, and had those contracts for said pro bono were written up by an attorney.  So having that I have made my living for tens years doing such and have experience with it, I can tell you first hand, you don't know what you are talking about.   With Pro bono. \


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 17:16:26
content:
  The fact remains the only responsible for deciding if they are working for free as a contractor is the contractor.  THEY CHOSE TO DO THE WORK.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 17:19:59
content:
  The bearing of opinion here is opinion, legal or otherwise. If you do not have a claim to authority then you must argue from the same grounds. We are, in fact, blessed with rational faculties and while there are arguments of professional hermenutiecs: https://www.bakerdonelson.com/volunteers-at-for-profit-companies-bad-idea-even-if-for-a-good-cause, https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/how-to-guides/pages/volunteeroranemployee.aspx, and finally https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Pro+Bono
  "As members of a profession, lawyers are bound by their ethical rules to charge reasonable rates for their services and to serve the public interest by providing free legal service to indigent persons or to religious, charitable, or other non-profit groups. A lawyer's free legal service to these types of clients is designated as pro bono service."


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 21:47:59
content:
  Nothing you posted has anything to do with what we are talking about.  You posted an opinion article talking about people working for civic partners and volunteers working for tips which doesn't apply here; a link that requires a login and signup which is useless on its face and just as valuable to the conversation as a rick roll, and a definition for pro bono from a random dictionary site mostly just covering the special dispensation of lawyers and pro bono work in a profession that has its own legal requirements and and a bar association that governs it for said Pro Bono.  Literally cherry picking things you think will on its surface back up what your saying but does not because  what you're saying does not  mesh with reality.  And have anything to do with what was being discussed.  

   We are not talking about lawyers other than the fact you are not one.  Any profession can do work pro bono,  this is an undisputed fact. That doesn't criminalize the entity that the work is being done for, also a fact.  A carpenter can offer their labor to anyone anywhere for any price if they are a contract worker, including pro bono for any reason.  The same goes for any skilled profession.  At the end of the day Pro Bono just means an agreement to do work without a fee. Pro bono work involves providing free services, rather than cash or goods, most of the time to those in need, but you can also do it just to help a friend ( like in this case) or because you owe someone a favor, or for any reason whatsoever, charity is not a requirement.  And the State doesn't enforce that, its not a crime to choose to work for free, nor is it a crime to allow someone to do some work for you for free, in the case pro bono.  

  But if you want to keep pushing the narrative that Karel somehow in violation of the law for Geenz to knowingly make the decision volunteer their time and skillset  for a for Profit company, And you want to insist that pro bono work requires  non-profit then you are wrong.

  They even said that " I backed off of it after talking to other team members. Largely because looking back I generally felt that Froox' vision for metaverse was worth working on more than a short term salary."  That is literally doing work pro bono.  Both in the definition your using and the I am using.  So I fail to even see any point in what your doing. 

    They felt the work they were doing was more important than compensation, according to what they said.  End of Story.   They said that publicly.  And you you're still 


  On top of that, all I was doing was calling you out for just blatantly making baseless accusations of labor exploitation, and criminal conduct.  Lets say for arguments sake that you are right, and any of the devs working for free or volunteering are in fact under the law being exploited.

    Froox is the  CTO and project lead. He holds equal equity in the company and is the co-founder. He was directly involved in working with dev team.  He was the one telling the dev team what work to do, and when, he was also the one, actively teaching the devs about the engine and directing them on what he needed done. He was the one who went out and asked the members of the dev team to come work with him in the first place.  As far as I am aware Karel didn't proposition the dev team to come work for Neos.  Froox did.  And He would be equally implicit in the labor exploitation you are insisting is real.  

   So making that (baseless) accusation and pointing the finger only at Karol is not only hypocritical, its disingenuous, and its just conversation and debate done is extreme bad faith.  On top of being  ablatant falsehood.

  On that note as far as I am am aware, there is nothing stopping Froox from saying, "hey, I think you guys should have equity, take some of mine"  but you don't me sitting here ranting about how the CTO won't give his team members equity in the company.  Because that would be disingenuous.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 21:48:00
content:
  I don't know if it is even legal for either of them to give away their personal equity in that matter.  I don't don't even know if   there is floating equity and I don't if that equity is ear marked for investors exclusively  and equally unavailable to assign as compensation.  I am not privy to that information,  because I don't know how they set their company up and neither do you.  I don't know what their agreement regarding equity was.  So I am not going to go around start to accuse either of them of exploitation because equity wasn't offered, or because any one of them, didn't agree to specific terms.  Because that is disingenuous, and its morally wrong in my opinion.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 21:49:47
content:
  Just about as edgy as quoting caps used for emphasis on a planform where you can't italicize a small portion and saying "Jesus Christ man calm down lmao" in some feinged attempt I was yelling


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 21:52:21
content:
  And if you want to discuss further, feel free to add me on neos and conversation in person, but I'm not going to do this with long texts and posting links its not reddit, and I don't time for it.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:01:57
content:
  I'm not accusing them of exploitation because equity wasn't offered, that's silly. I'm accusing them of exploitation for accepting volunteer labor as part of their core product. I am, specifically, accusing the legal entity of Solarex <or whichever entity thus associated> of doing so. I find that wrong on it's face, without any of the additional hoops.

  I just happen to also be able to point to pretty clear language that supports that position. I don't find it morally defensible to imply it is okay to profit from uncompensated work. I am not particularly interested in adding you on Neos XD Our interactions have been unpleasant and I don't have much faith they'd improve.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:24:01
content:
  As much as you like to live in your fairytale bubble, you live in a capitalist society. Please see beyond your fairytale, it might help you.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:26:05
content:
  I agree 100%, I just don’t know why they are not direct about it. It’s this miscommunication that has caused so many issues


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:28:25
content:
  Its clear we can't have a polite conversation here, so i'll just exit the conversation with.

  Apologies, if I offended you but this issue is not about pay. If you'd like to have a conversation i'd be up for it. But i'm not talking aobut pay again. This is not about pay. 

  Thank you.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:28:28
edit_date: 2022-06-30 22:46:14
content:
  @ProbablePrime you’re the kind of guy that would probably be fun to hang out with but you are missing the point of Neos. Karel has big ambitions for Neos to be a big player in the Metaverse space and have a huge impact shaping it. With your fun-first, small community approach, it will never get there


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:31:39
content:
  Your words often contradict your actions. Perhaps this is why there has been so much miscommunication?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:44:35
content:
  Usually artists will draw them at their large size and then down scale them to the smaller size. So yeah some lovely artist drew that one. They probably loved doing it though


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:45:15
content:
  Oh i get that, I just posted the meditation emojo on it's own before and it's like, a fourth of the size of the pea soup one.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:47:11
content:
  That on its face dishonest, now your just jumping though hoops and not even acknowledge that by your  definition Froox himself, was exploiting them.  Again he brought them on, he assigned work, he assigned tasks, and he did to help develop his engine, which has his name for christsake, and to be clear I am not accusing Froox of this because that is ridiculous. 

  You can't have it both ways. Sorry.  And no one violated the law.   No one was exploiting anyone under the law, if you have moral issues with it you need to assign everyone involved otherwise your disingenuous.  accusing the legal entity of Solarex is pretty just cop out and you trying toavoid the double caught yourself in. 

  If your expressing a moral opinion on the matter thats fine, I don't any reason to disagree with your personal opinion if its morality based. That's your right.  a And I would partially agree with that.  But that's not what you were doing.  You were making a blatant  criminal accusation that baseless and trying back it up by posting laws that don't apply and failing miserably at using legalese to make your accusations look legitimate.  Not only that you didn't apply it equally to all parties involved and extremely biased  That's what issue with.   and thats you getting called out on.  Also its libel.  Just FYI


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 22:52:29
content:
  >.> <.< Libel is written defamation, slander is spoken defamation. Look, please stop being wrong on the internet, at this point ti's a reflex.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:04:14
content:
  I could only find one for the animated emoji :< but like, no process of nomination or anything was outlined. I still just wonder who's job it is to choose which emoji to lovingly render into pea-soup fountains.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:06:17
edit_date: 2022-07-01 00:58:35
content:
  from a startup that wasnt profitable. What a fucking clown, toxic piece of cancer, and a goddamn moron


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:13:15
content:
  And he goes on to say "we never said no one was paid" and " we repeatedly clarify that" when FOR MONTHS THE COMMUNITY HAS BEEN DOING NOTHING BUT ACCUSING KAREL OF NEVER PAYING ANYONE EVER


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:17:58
content:
  And to see Prime pop in to agree that they ever corrected the community. Ive fucking never seen that out of hundreds of times Ive seen their unhinged community throw that slander around


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:19:54
content:
  Naw you just said "its not about pay" as if to imply that youre just virtuously above that being a concern when actually yes it absolutely was one of the primary concerns. And to make yourselves look better, much like every disingenuous action you take in this matter.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:20:40
content:
  That's not an announcement. Pay is not a primary concern of mine. Please do not put words in my mouth. Thank you.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:23:02
edit_date: 2022-07-01 01:02:41
content:
  You look like a joke trying to talk like you have any respect or air of superiority here. You let your community rot with stupidity from the inside for such petty reasons


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:25:08
content:
  Never clarifying things and keeping details shrouded was always to your advantage, as the Neos team has operated in the sleaziest of ways possible. Don't pretend you ever really corrected anyone or ever behaved with fairness.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:29:12
content:
  He cares about this being the first time in his life he's ever had some position of slight authority


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:32:02
content:
  Geenz just casually demanding $50k salary for 10 hours a week from a startup that isn't profiting.... my sides


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:32:57
content:
  Can't squeeze that much blood from a stone so you know, why not do the reasonable thing and contribute to blowing up the whole project for everyone?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:35:31
content:
  You can always count on one of the gold names to show up in here for damage control when something ugly gets out.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:35:39
content:
  eh alright. BTW, still tinkering with it, but noticing some weird LAN issues if I VPN to the network. Most likely my openvpn config so I'll update the github if I find something


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:36:39
content:
  So we have to tolerate this useless leech for awhile. as if he actually gives a damn about anything other than the image of their childish self-destructive plundering of a project.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:37:39
edit_date: 2022-06-30 23:37:51
content:
  I wonder where everyone thinks Geenz's $200k salary would come from after they remove NCR. Patreon and people paying for more storage, right?


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:38:42
edit_date: 2022-06-30 23:41:53
content:
  like, come on. Now that I"m able to relax and see things from a different angle, this whole thing is one pathetic disappointment. Any talks about NCR is just "Oh, the currency is strong! Yus! Mindless jargon" versus "Hmm, perhaps we can talk with some groups about how to best make use of the systems and employ it on the platform." or anything useful.
  It's called "Neos Metaverse - Neos Credit" and yet the primary topics are "Team is full of idiots and greedy furries, oh wah! We want new team yet have no clue how to do jack."


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:39:11
content:
  For 10 hours? And hmmm maybe they coulda paid out that kind of money with a dev team that wasn't sabotaging their own funding scheme, lol.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:42:36
edit_date: 2022-06-30 23:43:22
content:
  I don't know if anyone had the mind to actually think of this as an ambitious startup aside from maybe Froox and Karel themselves. You know, the actual forethought and patience needed to actually bring about huge future benefits to the company. But the others, their idea is more to treat it like the all should be paid like Seattle tech leads BEFORE the startup fires off.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:46:46
content:
  yeah... I think one of them kept saying they were involved with some major talks. Can't remember who, but eh...


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:47:09
content:
  I mean, you can only hire people you see, and Karel doesn't see much of this chat anymore. It's gone to the dogs, as one could say


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:50:48
content:
  the one time we had issue with the one person spamming an eloncoin, all it took was me messaging Andrea and she cleaned it up immediately.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:51:53
content:
  has he even made a page looking for hire or even an email address like "newhire@neosvr.com"? I mean, that'd be a strong usage of the new site and all...


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:55:54
content:
  @morolian you confuse me, genuinely. :/ I actually kinda forgot how meanly you treat people sometimes. You do have productive conversations sometimes, and at others you show pretty developed empathy. The juxtaposition sends me for a bit of a shock every time it happens.


type: message
date: 2022-06-30 23:59:51
content:
  ugh. can't wrap my head entirely around this. i guess you've had some shitty experiences and i'm sorry about that on behalf of the fucked up events that won't give you that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:00:12
content:
  I'm literally tired and done with all of this. At this point, I'm just waiting to see somethign happen, because I'm very positive nothing will take place because of course it doens't. It's the telegram group for christs sake


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:01:01
edit_date: 2022-07-01 01:14:35
content:
  like, legit... agian, and I keep bringing this up: no one in here is on Neos. Why? Because the numbers keep going down and everyone is just wanting their stupid fun money


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:01:23
edit_date: 2022-07-01 01:15:18
content:
  like okay, sure... go ahead, do wahtever. At this point, I can send mine to a null address and it'd go through


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:01:55
edit_date: 2022-07-01 01:15:08
content:
  meanwhile, some stupid moron who will more than happy to backstab everyone is going to just do wwhatever


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:02:25
edit_date: 2022-07-01 01:15:35
content:
  so who cares? Nothing is going to happen. If this chat is the future of Neos, jesus christ on a bicycle, it's beyond dead


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:02:48
content:
  I come on Neos during events, but again I don't think you should expect to see any of our names here ingame. I don't really want those in charge of the platform tying my name here to my identity there.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:03:07
content:
  Remember when they were making a personal little shitlist over on Discord of people's names here? Ah good times


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:05:01
content:
  just go o n, enlighten me how the telegram chat, run by the "All mighty and powerful" "CEO" is somehow now linked to any future work or discussions about the platform?


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:05:31
content:
  like come on. You are all serious? Like, okay... no wonder people are dropping Neos's patreon harder than ever


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:06:54
content:
  I'd messaged Andrea and Karel around 5 times about it prior to you claiming you messaged them and they cleaned it up...


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:06:58
content:
  they don't need to see you. They can just hear about all the lack of anything happening in here. Crypto spammers going on for an entire week babbling about elon-elephant coins and all that. Oh no, someone updated their linkedin with false info about a project and expected no one to find out. Sure


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:08:25
edit_date: 2022-07-01 01:19:00
content:
  like, that's why I just don't care anymore. I have accepted that anything that happens here has no weight on any future for the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:09:06
edit_date: 2022-07-01 00:09:19
content:
  They have a hard time finding trustable people because they have a hard enough time trusting themselves


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:09:38
content:
  they have little to no confidence at this point. It's just an endless "Well... I'll do something eventually" thing, and therefore no movement happens


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:10:22
content:
  Its not like even if we were talking over in the discord they'd be giving a shit about our feedback anyway


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:11:49
content:
  like, yeah, Karel COULD hire a new team, and just go on. Even if it ends up as its own fork for whatever stupid reason, it can be done. But has he? Has he begun to prepare setting that up? No. Instead he whines about "Oh I'm getting old, and people are greedy and all this..." Like come on... even with the bad stuff that's happened, anyone would want his position because it's a surprisingly good one. Do some right stuff, and man you can make some powerful decisions


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:13:10
edit_date: 2022-07-01 00:13:29
content:
  I would not want to be plagued with having to navigate a group of friends all seeing me as an outsider and then trying to align them to a vision and deadlines. It was not a good position.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:14:37
content:
  So you fix it. There are many ways to come up with happy medium solutions and even then, if it's that big of an issue... then negotiate one's own path. I mean, if he outsourced the website design to something that can't even read an exchange website right, pretty sure he can outsource another engine to carry on the torch.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:15:20
content:
  Logs would be great. I know not to take anything anyone says at face value these days as people are perpetually full of shit, so evidence is good.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:16:30
content:
  I'm most likely going to get some tacos. There's a place right across the street that looks pretty neat


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:21:22
content:
  Did the value go down as a reason for the buyback? Sounds like hardly much happened if it went up by so little like that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:27:37
content:
  I mean, with the value of crypto crashing hard, there's hardly a reason to fight against the flow of an entire failing ecosystem. Like, sure, you can swim upwards at times, but like... really? Glad his "investors" paid to be screwed over. Could think of many more ways to blow all that


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:27:50
content:
  If there's something I can infer from all this it's that Karel might be hard to communicate with. I can see that being the case. It usually always is involving these weird cases where it feels like there are very few professional boundaries between everyone though


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:30:58
content:
  If I'm to speciate, I'm guessing Karel wants to reduce the amount of NCR or if he gets to reboot the company, to do another funding run with it


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:31:35
content:
  I'm not gonna pretend to know his motives but it seems like he actually gives a damn about the holders, and is perhaps the only one who does


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:31:44
content:
  That's a hell of a gamble when it could be invested into like... I mean literally anything else >.> <.<


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:35:29
content:
  What would have helped is if the team wasn't outright at war with it at the same time. Because the attitude was "whenever the team fuds their own funding scheme, I'm converting ETH into NCR to undo some of the damage"


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:37:47
content:
  It's ok because in his childish mind they're not real people having their angst taken out on they're cryptobros


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:39:33
content:
  Oh right, the thing that brought millions to the platform is "karel's pet" and  "eh, it's there. It mostly works like L$ from SL. It's probably not the worst thing in the world."


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:41:47
content:
  according to him, because it's not pegged to the dollar or some sort of non-fractional reserve, it's "mismanaged"


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:42:51
content:
  Sure people will just line up to put food in his mouth when offered to exchange their dollars for something worth less than a dollar


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:43:38
content:
  and if you benefitted (from taking a risk of which no one at Neos would bail you out of) and profitted from buying NCR? you're a "cryptotrader"


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 00:44:47
content:
  Well I remember the reaction to Reactant getting a house "Hope you get to enjoy it beause we're coming to take it from you"


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 01:04:56
edit_date: 2022-07-01 01:05:09
content:
  Because this was WELL before NCR blew up, thus  "Karel has all this money for buybacks1!!11" is completely irrelevant. Secondly, it speaks to his character to ask a project like Neos for such absurd amounts of money.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 01:11:17
content:
  They've gotten so used to preaching to the braindead kids that suck up to them that he can just act like he doesn't understand how the company he's demanding to work for even gathers funds.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 01:15:15
content:
  and it's clear at this point by blackmail Karel meant "demanding so much money that the project would die". But I think all Geenz has at this point is the word "Blackmail" and he just keeps using it in lue of having any actual grievences worth airing.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 01:21:56
content:
  It's always been "shout loud and often" and they've been good at leveraging this into a crypto issue because they know it's a very unpopular sector right now among the chronically online drama obsessed furries


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:19:11
content:
  oh yes all medical facilities. Ideally basically anywhere with concentrated amounts of people. I even still wear them on the bus.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:22:34
content:
  Scientists have discovered that brains see tools as the extension of one's body. So it's probably better to say that our brain is using our body as a tool. Which makes us all tools. 

  Its fascinating.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:46:35
content:
  Maybe I'd find Probable's cringe chuuni crap tolerable if not for how pathetic it looks in light of how utterly useless he has been in bringing the Neos community together, but also in that he's a moron in how to manage the self-inflicted wound to the head of their own product


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:49:51
content:
  your snide attitude looks just pathetic to anyone who knows you're here just because you're bored over on the discord and have nothing to do.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:53:00
content:
  Perhaps we could have a better conversation if you weren't just baiting for negative reactions?

  Personal insults in conversations don't encourage good communication. 

  If you'd like to have an actual conversation at some point let me know.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:53:46
content:
  His duty is to bolster the gang's numbers to give them a slight air of legitmacy, while they faffs about while indulging in 6 months of stupid drama while quickly becoming irrelevant in the VR space.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:55:22
content:
  Well, maybe we could've communicated if you didn't let your discord devolve into a 24/7 character assassination session.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:56:01
content:
  I don't control the rules on that discord. That's the moderation team. 

  I came in here to see the other side


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:56:50
content:
  Well I came in after hearing the absurd posts from Geenz on reddit about how he thought he should get a top tier salary squeezed out of Neos BEFORE ncr blew up


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 06:58:06
edit_date: 2022-07-01 06:58:48
content:
  We've been fine without you, we've been talking for months here and quite frankly putting our differences (mostly) aside and talking about Neos


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:01:53
content:
  here's my opportunity to get the better of you both and apologize for insults, but I still have my sore thoughts and feelings about you I'll have you know, Probable


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:04:32
edit_date: 2022-07-01 07:04:44
content:
  I don't care about apologies for myself, but if anything I'd like to see an apology to Reactant whom you let be run out of the community.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:05:30
content:
  Our community might be better for that apology. I never really spoke to them outside of the game and we got on well. I remember chatting about the avatar they worked on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:07:07
content:
  Reactant? He's the reason I have so many trackers. Was pretty chill the two times I met them in-world. Really blew my mind, really.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:11:34
content:
  Thats why I don't like any of the goldnames. They never really did anything empathetic during this whole thing unless it benefits them or some narrative.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:12:15
content:
  They pipe up when they need to defend themselves, or when it benefits them, but everything else is just letitng things decay


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:13:39
content:
  If you have a rule violation to report you can open a ticket at moderation.neos.com and you'll get an official response from our team. 

  Thanks


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:17:22
content:
  If I really wanted to piss people off, I'd be honest and point out Karel is the only one who really talked to some of us


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:24:26
edit_date: 2022-07-01 09:53:00
content:
  they're literally over there brainstorming ways they can go after someone or try to get them arrested in their childish fantasies... And that's allowed over there on the discord


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:26:23
content:
  No one responded to the ticket when a mentor basically sexually harassed me while showing me how to equip my avatar in Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:27:48
content:
  It was my first time in Neos, and suddenly a mentor appeared out of nowhere in the welcome area. I thought well that's cool. So he's walking me through how to equip my avatar from VRC


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:28:29
content:
  When I have it mostly equipped he starts acting affectionate and goes like "mmm I'd raise my tail for that" or something


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:28:51
content:
  I was like "...um what?" and then he starts making some chittering noise like a dragon welp or some shit I dont know


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:29:03
content:
  What username did you use when reporting that? I can double check the ticket status and we can take it to Direct messages.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:31:03
content:
  We wouldn't restrict anyone for that. I'd literally look for the ticket in question and see what happened.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:32:26
content:
  If the ticket was submitted anonymously. We can't respond to it. Or if the ticket was not finished then we won't have a record of it


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:33:15
content:
  Yeah, I had just bought a bunch of NCR at around $10 a pop and was logging in to see what I could do with it


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:35:00
content:
  I understand, If you have a ticket that has no prompt response let me know the ticket number and I can chase it up.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:37:22
content:
  If its not a ticket, I'd accept private messaging. But would need a ticket to base any account restrictions on for the offender.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:39:08
edit_date: 2022-07-01 12:36:59
content:
  yeah I dunno if you saw it,  I think it was khosumi or some shit was making a little list of all the bad people from the telegram, prolly for a vein attempt to dox or record everything we say


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:39:54
content:
  Wel either the mods did something good for once, or its still there and I can't be arsed to do the mod's job for them to clean up that cesspool we've been run out of


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:42:28
content:
  Im not sure if it was reported.  Which is maybe why there's no record of it. If you'd like to report that moderation you can open a ticket on moderation.neos.com


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:46:21
content:
  I mean... I do find it a bit strange that departments are this segregated for a community this small


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:47:52
content:
  hmm... I think I remember that discussion...
  It was the talks about virtual land and all that, based on principals from SL and how some functions within Philip's other project operated. It boiled down to the two who mostly were interested in the subject wanting a decentraland styled operation, while it was basically stated that wasn't going to work with Neos's functionality, since worlds can be spun up freely... so there'd be no estate to really claim.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:48:09
content:
  I mean, it's ugly, but its nothing I'm losing sleep over and I'm willing to let it be water under the bridge


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:49:48
content:
  And all people cared about was price tags and getting rich, instead of how the systems operated within the current infrastructure and the impracticalness of making it work... but eh... c'est la vie


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:53:12
content:
  Now, keep in mind, it was mentioned before so I guess enough of a stink was made that they cleaned it up (eventually) when it kept getting pointed out


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:57:38
content:
  I mean it has to be defended. The fact that word was used is like the most gasp-worthy thing going if framed in this disingenuous way where most of the context is stripped


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 07:58:38
content:
  And apparently it was a concern that some members would dump NCR at a coordinated time, that was actually believed I'm told.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:07:43
edit_date: 2022-07-01 08:08:11
content:
  Being forced to fish out meanings from the supposed perpetrator statements and speculate is just useless when if Karel had a case he could explain it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:13:06
edit_date: 2022-07-01 08:13:41
content:
  IMO it's pretty unfair for just one party to have toexplain themselves.

  If Geenz was the villain here and crossed a line by supposedly defaming Karel's character, then it's only natural for Karel to defend himself and explain the situation too instead of leave the work to someone else to speculate over a few word sentenses spead all over the place.

  You all seem to ignore Froox has just as much right to take decisions on whom to hire and Geenz still has the team tag.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:16:09
content:
  Well what's there to explain really? The truth is it's nuanced and not a big deal and something adults should be able to move past. I think we've analyzed it to hell and heaven and back again that Karel seemed to be using the term improperly, as in "demanding so much pay that it would damage Neos" and his dropin term for that was "blackmail"


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:16:32
content:
  like if we wanna go after him for one thing, I'd say it's that he's not the most elegent with english, for damn sure


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:22:04
content:
  even when logs and shit come out that show one party was acting disingenuously, there's an army of apologists


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:23:53
content:
  though it's far more likely it'll fade into obscurity while they'll be left fighting over the carcass


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:29:40
content:
  I don't get how anything to do with Geenz can even be considered blackmail. He has literally no leverage other that the part of the code he worked on. So stop with the 'legal battle' being needed for this. This take is nonsense Orc.

  The facts are that Karel is going against his cofounder decisions on who to work with when it comes to coding and that Karel is in control of the finances and has wasted them on buybacks. 

  Don't pretend not to see the unbalanced power here for supposed partners.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:30:48
edit_date: 2022-07-01 08:31:01
content:
  I mean I think legal clarity is needed for Neos to move forward, not concerning anything to do with Geenz


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:32:09
edit_date: 2022-07-01 08:32:25
content:
  he only ever showed up just to show his ass after their announcement caused ncr to do a 50% red day and he wanted to gloat


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:33:39
content:
  but in response to you, the reason Karel didn't hire Geenz is because he was asking for a LAUGHABLY ABSURD salary


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:36:07
content:
  And it'd be great if Karel could be in charge of finances and not have to worry about his own colleagues openly damaging his funding scheme in spite


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:42:46
edit_date: 2022-07-01 08:43:30
content:
  You guys keep missing the point.

  It's up to Frooxius who he works with on coding, as evident that Geenz is still on the team and working on the code for free.

  Doesn't matter if he's banned on a unofficial social channel no matter what Karel likes to state.

  The core of the problem is that Karel has no right to make decisions on his own, put any kind of timelines or demands or waste finances without the say so of his cofounder.

  It's all about missing cooperation and respect as evident that no one wants to work with him anymore.


  Also Karel has wasted his finances on buybacks on his own. After all you don't loose anything until you sell. Stop blaming FUD or whatever for NCR casino money failing.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:46:50
content:
  So Froox gets to bring in all his friends and people he likes and Karel is just seen as a glorifed bean counter who shouldn't have any say


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:48:22
content:
  Froox is the one that has built the product from the ground up and lead programmer. He's the one that deals with creating the product and it's his area of expertise to hire who works on it and if they are ip to the job not someone in a different area like finances.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:48:52
content:
  and FUD is one thing, but when its the actual team involved with the product that's fudding the funding method themselves, what investor in their right mind is going to sit through that?


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:49:32
content:
  Karel would have secured nothing without a product attracting customers. He has no right to waste more than 50 % of the company's finances.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:49:54
edit_date: 2022-07-01 10:18:41
content:
  right right, and Karel is just a bean counter who doesn't do any work? (this is how I know you're someone who knows nothing about how business works)


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:50:41
content:
  I dont know how new you are, but even the disingenuous useless asshole goldnames have to admit that Karel is someone whos had his sleeves rolled up the whole time helping Neos grow.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:51:44
edit_date: 2022-07-01 08:51:56
content:
  He might have, but he's recently let the ball drop quite hard with his decision making if this is the result.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:52:40
content:
  Well convenience that you get to be the one who says who is responsible and define your own dreamland reality.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:53:24
content:
  Maybe this isn't a path worth arguing and the better thing to do is to just say "yes, Karel has done alot for Neos" and then we can move on to better topics>


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:54:35
content:
  I mean to Abysmal, because he seems to want to retread the assumption that Karel did nothing, which is something I've already seen hashed out dozens of times.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:56:30
content:
  I'm arguing from a perspective of a customer interested in a project that is supported by crowd funding and looking at who is the person responsible for building said product and how they are being treated by the guy doing the finances. Anyway I wont be available to talk for a few hours.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 08:57:40
content:
  well, your perspective comes from a very bunk place it sounds like, if we've the pleasure of welcoming you from the discord. I don't blame you for thinking that this is some one-sided affair if that's where you've been introduced to Neos' woes.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 18:29:56
content:
  So if you guys are going to be condescending and dismissive, assuming I need to educate myself and have a perspective coming from a bunk place, I'm going to respond with the same.

  I'm going to assume you've followed the project only for a year at most. That you don't actually see it as a community driven project, since the way you treated ProbablePrime or BusinessLawyer, both people who've been supportive enough of Neos to build plenty of core tools and tutorials, as replaceable.

  It makes me wonder what actually brought you to Neos and makes you stay?

  Can't you see that if it wasn't for  Frooxius and the way he has cultivated Neos, by selecting a Team of people who care for the project and accepted criticism and constructive feedback from the community, Neos wouldn't have gathered yhe support it has?

  Sure without Karel, there might not have been a Neos, but that's in the past and it shouldn't absolve him of his current mistakes and treatment of the devs and community.

  If he was actually part of the process of developing the platform, he would have been aware of how everyone would react.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:11:15
content:
  You're hung up on playing kingmaker by trying to argue who had the most involvement in Neos.

  If you want to dissect everything that lead to Neos being what it is, you can't pick and choose, nor try to argue that someone's degree is higher so the other party should be disregarded... Which you are not the only person doing that, and it involves more than just named individuals, but a large community and even funders (which is the main thing I've been arguing).


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:12:21
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:19:38
content:
  From the very start I've been trying to point out the truth (which brings great anger to some people) that the people who bought NCR are actual members of the community who give a damn about the game. Why wouldn't they be? In the years prior they were.

  But at the first time that became inconvenient to narrative building, the story shifted very hard. NCR, which had been being sold since like 2018 or something and been promoted and advertised on streams, suddenly became "Karel's thing", and the holders started becoming labeled as "cryptobros" or traders. Suddenly those who put their money into Neos because they liked it were labeled as "speculators" as if they fact they gained anything was evil through some pseudo-marxist lens on convenience (which is really just propaganda to try to legitimize a takeover). 

  So you seem to genuinely care about Froox and have anger that he's being treated unfairly, but when it comes to the involved lot of the Japanese players who had no part or knowledge of the drama, and many other content creator casualties in this war, or even just regular players who believe in it, they have no voice and you seem to not care they exist. And as for Karel himself, you seem to think it's not abusive that the discord has been turned into a 24/7 smear campaign and legal-threat brainstorming session for furries with too much time on their hands.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:12:34
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:19:20
content:
  And you think the "devs" gives a flying fuck about them? No. They have been very open about lumping them together as "toxic" and the community has been just as hateful and eager to propagate that. And we know why. It's because they've had their brains pickled in constant dick-sucking from a community of neets who are falling over each other fighting against growth just so they can fancy themselves as virtuous because they want Neos to be this dull insular cuddle-bin where they can all slap meaningless titles ontop of themselves like "Mentor" and feel special.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:38:08
edit_date: 2022-07-01 22:41:55
content:
  I agree that people are too aggressive when grouping up everyone who have bought NCR in the same pile as malicious and self-serving.

  That's of course not true and has had the same effect as grouping the evil furries in the opposing group.

  I'm sure there were plenty of people who minted NCR in order to fund the project or just get a currency yo use in game.

  But that doesn't changd the fact that by its unstable nature and outside trading NCR has let plenty of opportunists that are there just for the pump and dump and bots exploit everyone that had good intentions while using it.

  NCR in my opinion was a catalyst to start this hate war, because as a speculative asset it invites greed and plenty of people that did took advantage of it.

  Maybe it was because people didn't understand the inherent risk of dealing with this type of  crypto.

  Anyways, my point is that because how NCR was implemented and handled it allowed for some bad actors to taint everyone else with the same brush.

  Maybe the problem between Karel and the Team was a correlation instead of causation, and had nothing to do with NCR.

  The fact is Karel hasn't actually explained his plans for NCR. Crypto has been his responsibility and NCR hasn't been used as advertised.

  The distrust you're getting is a reaction coming ftom a feeling of betrayal and loss in trust. Probably unjustly grouping you up with Karel and the moonbois and pump and dumpers his crypto project invited.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:38:54
content:
  It's very difficult to try and discuss anything with you in good faith if you're going yo act like that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:45:09
content:
  Tell me in 1 sentence what's the point you can't get across?

  That without Karel managing funding there wouldn't have been a Neos?


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:45:59
content:
  Also don't act as if you weren't baiting with that comment. I was quoting that and writing something else.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 22:52:44
content:
  Hello everyone, unfortunately neos vr freezes up and takes a while to load for me and keeps not responding and responding again


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:19:52
content:
  How would you propose NCR have been "handled"? (I already know your response will likely be to just copy linden dollars).

  Look, if you have an asset on a free market, it's going to be open to speculators. NCR is, by design, open for anyone to buy and sell it. That's how its supposed to be. I don't know what thought experiments you have in your head where you can play financial director and restrict buying and selling to "prevent speculators and greed", but it just doesn't work if you want people in Neos to actually have freedom. You have to just accept this is how markets work, and it's fair.

  Or maybe you wanted it pegged to something? Sure, just get a couple dozen million dollars and put it in a reserve so it can be pegged to a dollar and then hey, no one can speculate on it!

  The thought that has never entered your head is that if someone speculates that NCR could go up and they buy it and it does, they deserve that benefit. If the opposite happened, who is going to bail them out of their losses? You? Froox? That's right, no one.

  Most of the thoughts about these subjects seem to come from kids who have intellectually bunk ideas about how markets work. Their opinions on this stuff comes from their emotional whims and anger. And further it's moot. NCR was already sold to people. It is already in people's hands. It's alittle late for your college sophomore ideas about greed and capitalism to be utilized so you can play with people's lives from the comfort of your armchair.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:21:02
content:
  Good then you can stay using Karel's project and everyone parts ways and is happy. Or maybe he pulls something off, and it gets really big but I highly doubt that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:24:40
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:50:50
content:
  And yeah, I agree with you about the lack of empathy.

  Whenever I had to interact with the neos team, I've always wondered what the hell is with this cold distant yet undue arrogance they've always had and it boils down to lack of empathy. Anytime you interact with them it's from a place of them trying to lord their persona and position of power over you.

  Or even worse than that, like stunted intelligence that makes them unable to have empathy outside of the insular group they benefit from, which, frankly, is how my interactions with most furries feels. If you're not playing along and looking how they want, they lack the ability to have emotions with you. And I believe that's extended to the treatment of the NCR outsiders and this push that anyone who had NCR is a greedy speculator, a pump and dumper, whatever stupid buzzword they heard for the first time during 2021.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:25:46
content:
  any other one-liners you'd like to use to sum up a person? It's obvious people really don't have much to go off of when they've built up these grand opinions of the man


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:27:13
content:
  well damn, maybe they didn't need to have this stupid war with him, they coulda just waited for him to retire


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:29:38
edit_date: 2022-07-01 23:30:42
content:
  Yes it's too late to do anything to change NCR. It can exist as a separate entity and no one is obligated to use it.

  My main gripe about it is the buybacks being the opposite of what was promised in the whitepaper.

  Karel has said there are plans to use fiat in the marketplace, so whoever doesn't want to touch NCR can use that on the Steam client.

  Another negative with NCR is that many people using it were unaware of the inherent volatility risk and got burned. Also the bad rep crypto brings with it.

  But generally I agree it's too late and wouldn't be fair to change how it works now, or it would have been sold under false advertisement.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:31:05
content:
  Seems clear as day: "I want to retire." He made his amount, enough to be happy (which, to be fair, yeah), and now wants to stop. I think it's dumb, but that's my piece


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:34:34
content:
  well afaik Neos was like a 7 year saga for Karel (I think?) I can't blame him for wanting to be doing something less stagnant. And when he said that this being around the height of him manually processing NCR transactions which I imagine would make anyone feel like an old man after some weeks


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:36:02
content:
  If you didn't like the buybacks than many the team shouldn't have been directing all displeasure from the platform onto their own currency, PURPOSEFULLY trying to tank it which caused Karel to step in and exchange ETH for NCR.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:37:24
content:
  I may not agree with the buybacks, but I understand them and actually find it a responsible reaction.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:37:54
content:
  It wasn't the NCR holder's fault this stupid, stupid, idiotic dumb childish selfish drama was going on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:38:15
edit_date: 2022-07-01 23:38:49
content:
  I didn't mean separate entity in that way. 

  I meant it as just another type of currency that can be used to buy stuff in the Neos marketplace.

  My initial reaction for NCR being made 3rd party, despite my current distaste and doubt in its viability for trading, was that that would mean that Neos sold it under false advertisement.

  And that you'd have yo get a refund in that case.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:39:00
edit_date: 2022-07-01 23:39:28
content:
  And that's another part of the misinformation, in that people seem to believe that if they let the funds sit in there, ETH would have magically kept its full value during this whole drawdown. ETH lost 80% of its value since then. That's the main thing that reduced the wallet's value


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:39:23
content:
  hmm... reread it. Still standing on that Karel, at the time of writing, wanted to distance away from Neos. If he's complaining that doing "push transaction" is somehow hard, either automate it or quit complaining. People work the crappiest of jobs just to make ends meet, and here's some ~30 year old (thought they were younger, but oh well) saying "This is toooo hard." Like really?


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:40:15
content:
  And I don't expect any of the team members to have the ability to be forward thinking and not be panicking and filling their diapers over seeing wild swings in emerging markets.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:40:31
content:
  so... in short... NCR as a currency for buying and selling... isn't that great because it's value can fluxuate so hard, it can be worth paper the next day?
  I mean, it's a based on on a based on currency.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:41:10
content:
  I disagree that someone purposefully tried to tank NCR, but even if they did it just shows how volatile and unusable it is for an in game trading economy if a little FUD has that effect.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:41:14
content:
  I mean... that's one way to sell it "Hey, we want to support creators: Here's digital money worth less than the electrons that set the bit values."


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:41:39
content:
  I agree. They could have or should have. I partly speculate that by this point the well was already poisoned and Karel saw legal action on the horizon. He'd maybe rather have the wallet aid the NCR holders whom he felt responsible for drawing into the mess, rather than letting the devs trying viciously to out him to potentially get their paws on it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:43:14
edit_date: 2022-07-01 23:43:31
content:
  He should have cashed out all the ETH to fiat and funded development as stated in the whitepaper. That didn't happen.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:43:42
content:
  I mean that works both ways, and that's inherently a part of it. If it fluxuates (like real currencies do) then that could atleast be acceptable or even fun. NCR should be, in my opinion, part of Neos' texture, an interesting topic as it shifts, and something that's fun to tip to other players and draw them into caring about the economy of an actual metaverse.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:44:46
content:
  Well you seem unaware of how the events played out, because the moment he got this massive windfall, it's the moment this self-destructive drama started.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:45:48
content:
  And it's not like checks were withheld. Go ask the Neos team: they refused to send invoices after this period because they'd rather have their shot at outing karel.


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:46:29
content:
  Says alot when your devs don't even want the company's native currency and want nothing to do with it. It's almost like they planned on dumping it


type: message
date: 2022-07-01 23:47:41
content:
  Well, maybe its a gamble. I don't know the status of the wallet currently, but within a few years it's not unfeasible that whatever ETH is left in the wallet will be worth 3-4 times more than it is today.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:00:06
content:
  How much NCR do you think the Neos Team had collectively for the dump to even matter? 

  Isn't it disingenuous to claim some are dumping NCR, while others are selling it, if everyone owns and has earned said NCR? It's their currency and decision what to do with it.

  I don't get your narrative with this. It's natural for everyone to sell at the highest price or they are left holding the bag.

  The only problem I see is when someone speculates or manipulates the market artificially.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:05:00
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:05:28
content:
  The way I see it it's not a natural case of supply and demand as would have been the case if NCR was to ever be used in a future Neos in game store, or for payment of services offered.

  They are counterproductive.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:08:41
content:
  I never said they shouldn't do whatever, I just think it's funny that they were hostile to the coin their community was stuck with while they had the luxury of selling before they would go on to make damning statements.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:09:28
content:
  and I've had friends of the devs slip to me that they basically already knew well before march 4th that the team would announce their intended effort to drop NCR


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:10:08
content:
  it's not just gold names that had that benefit, but whoever theyre sleeping with or rubbing shoulders with in VR too


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:10:21
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:11:39
content:
  Because of different use cases.

  There are those from the outside markets influencing the price through speculation.

  The in game market wouldn't be feasible with the fluctuations in price because of the speculators and any value wojld have drained out of the in game economy.

  That's my take.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:12:33
content:
  and it's fucking bonkers you mention supply and demand, as if you can have such a thing without a free market


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:13:30
content:
  like just... I'd have more respect for your opinions if you just said you were a communist and believed we shouldn't have free trading rather than just talk about things you don't understand


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:17:45
content:
  that happens in all markets and is evident in how they follow cycles of accumulation and distribution. and if it's something new and generally illiquid, then yeah the swings are going to be much wider, because everyone has the freedom to take profits.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:19:00
content:
  whats the price of a corn cob? You think there's some agency that determines all of this stuff? it's priced by supply and demand, and to have that you need to have a free market... and if you have a free market that means its anyones right to be able to participate in it, which means speculation can happen...


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:21:56
content:
  lets go with "neos is my little political playground" and start talking about fell-good intellectually bunk rules about how we can eliminate greed from our furry market


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:22:25
content:
  Or lets just never move past second life and forget the whole ambition of ever having an open metaverse


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:29:36
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:32:12
content:
  I'll stop arguing about how NCR functions not being ideal. It's already been set in motion and won't change anyway.

  What I'm curious is why you guys think it being the default Neos currency makes it any different from any other coin?

  IMO everyone who's not using it to hold long term or play the market, isn't going to have any use of it in the Neos shop if they can't instantly convert to something more stable.

  What does NCR actually gain by being linked to Neos other than fooling  people unaware of the risks using it to loose money and thus bad publicity?


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:30:39
content:
  I'm not going to make your arguments for you, but presenting laissez faire capitalism the only option alternative to gutting the general economic activity of the platform is kinda silly. It only takes like two minutes of thinking about consumer protection as it exists /now/ to put the lie to that notion.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:47:05
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:48:15
content:
  NCR is just an alternative to traditional currencies, no one is forced to use it.

  The idea is that it's native to the platform and it's something that can be used ingame. Like if I wanted to give you an NCR because I liked your avatar, I could tip you, or other potential things like hoping someday we could have a real casino or have games with actual stakes. Things not really possible by choosing one local currency.. And even if it was I like to consider the metaverse needing its own inherent currencies that aren't (directly) influenced by country boarders, real-life policies, etc. 

  The assumption was also that NCR would grow alongside Neos and gain usecases over time that the devs would support, and that NCR users might be exempt from certain transaction fees, etc. Things like this were discussed before it was embroiled in the cofounder drama and recent crypto-cynicism. Obviously, our devs chose to capitulate to the pressure of current cynicism.

  From, what you say, the endgame is always risk and someone losing money, and although there are risks with these things, it should be clear that no one should be putting significant net-worth into it, or if they choose to they are accepting that risk. Because I don't know about you, but I would rather be given that choice than be told it's not my right to do that even if I want to. And that might be the thing worth discussing or disagreeing on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:49:39
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:50:10
content:
  Whats your alternative? Because I think if you extrapolate it out, it'll always turn into a need for a corporation and setting into position gods to "protect" us... and that's against my thesis of a metaverse.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 00:54:44
edit_date: 2022-07-02 00:55:39
content:
  I'm going to sleep. 

  I generally agree that pervious promises of NCR's in game use should be kept, even if I doubt many would risk it if they were aware of how it works (there should be a warning about fluctuating value).

  I'll wait for / announcementsto see what the final outcome would be.

  So I'll try not to bother you since I got your perspectives. Thanks for discussing this.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 01:12:21
content:
  NCR was always going to have massive issues as a currency regardless of how the market responded to it or really how it was managed after the genesis contract. It is and was a naive solution to a complicated problem and even a trivial survey of other digital currencies highlights the complexity of the problem space. My alternative is: don't roll your own shopping cart much less your own currency. When you absolutely must roll your own, don't for the love of god make it some immutable economic model that you literally can not adjust to address emerging behaviors of a real market.

  I can respect the desire to make those compensations algorithmic to decentralize the control of monetary policy, god help you. It's not the direction I'd go, but that is at least interesting. Giving a DOA control of the tokenomics would also be interesting. Practically any solution that isnt a hard cap on supply would at least be a solution that I'd be comfortable experimenting with.

  But if it was up to me entirely I'd just find few payment processors that accepted a wide variety of payment options and go for that. It's one of those problems that, if it's not your product's sole focus, it's just not something I want to touch. As soon as you are even managing an internal token with /any/ degree of float, I want to see an econ major on staff, preferably more than one.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 01:34:11
content:
  Y'all like banging on the drum of bringing Neos out of the realm of a hobby project, but you're comfortable with a home rolled payment solution?

  I'd honestly be fine with some weird, interesting algorithmic stable or DOA controlled internal token as an extension of the very hobby project mentality I bring to the table. I like fucking around and finding out.

  But seriously pushing the marketplace as a viable professional platform with like, how much project time put into handling payment? Kicking the on and off ramps to the 'out of scope' pile? 

  If we are serious about courting a professional market NCR should have been managed like it's own product, with it's own team, leveraged against similar solutions from the onset.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 01:49:09
content:
  For me the marketplace as a place to sell stuff was never a major concern, the jobs board was though. I saw the marketplace as primarily a solution to discoverability, with the happy benefit that other people wanted to sell stuff on it and I'm usually on board for win-wins.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 01:53:27
content:
  I agree the UX needs an overhaul. I want to see what the current completed overhaul looks like though. I don't /hate/ the world browser, and that was sort of the test case for the new design language from what I've been able to peice together.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 01:58:51
content:
  I would like them to overhaul the UIX stuff in general though. I find it a massive pain to deal with.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 02:03:59
content:
  I would welcome a big fuck off bible of best practices for consistant platform UI principles as someone who struggles with UI design.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 02:07:39
content:
  I did take graphic design in high school. It just never cleanly clicked. Frustrates me to no end. I even love reading about design, but I think I need that classroom environment to get the feedback loop.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 02:16:31
edit_date: 2022-07-02 02:16:41
content:
  Fair. Though I do kinda need to do everything at least a bit. Comes with the unreasonable desire to make videogames.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 07:06:29
edit_date: 2022-07-02 09:24:46
content:
  Absolutely no one is putting yall up on any kind of pedestal - quite simply, we just think yall are a bunch of narcissistic, disingenuous, spiteful and toxic blowhards


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 11:11:30
edit_date: 2022-07-02 11:11:47
content:
  If Geenz said he's absolutely not willing to work with Karel, isn't the only way forward to move on without Geenz?


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 11:13:20
content:
  Just being pragmatic here, not dwelling on the unfortunate situation like everyone else seems to be..


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 12:20:23
content:
  Yeah Geenz has said that, but also everyone else as well. Literally the whole team (except Andrea) has said they are not willing to work with Karel anymore.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 12:30:27
content:
  i wanted to rejoin the discord server but i can't because i got banned from it when my discord account got hacked a wile ago and spammed links


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 14:18:34
edit_date: 2022-07-06 09:03:48
content:
  I see Geenz is sticking to the "let's pretend it's only random non-Neos users who owned a lot of NCR and not actual Neos users". I see he continues with the same contempt for the people that tried to help fund the project that he is working on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 15:49:19
content:
  Well my comment was in response to his recent comments. Other than that, no, not really. Not like there's been any other movement.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 15:56:21
edit_date: 2022-07-02 17:03:24
content:
  You're beyond infuriating Cyro. Read it, read what he said and keep reading it over and over until something clicks.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:00:17
content:
  I swear to god Cyro. The initial address doesn't change the rest of what he says, which applies to everyone, regardless of who he claims he's addressing.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:01:53
content:
  It caused me to lose any respect I had left for the team. For the team themselves to not respond with "Whoa, what the fuck? This request is way out of line" for such a big ask when it comes to pay. Apparently Karel is the only bad guy, was the rest of the team fine with such insane figures on a project with so little money and a tiny userbase?


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:03:05
content:
  It APPLIES to everyone, regardless of who he addressed. It's like addressing people with blonde hair outside in the rain saying "Some of you may get wet" when obviously the statement applies to everyone, regardless of who you're addressing because his comment is about the coin, not the people. Scope, understand it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:07:39
edit_date: 2022-07-02 17:07:00
content:
  Is it pointless? From what I can tell, he was the lynchpin that has caused this entire spiral of events, He's the reason all the projects I have spent thousands of hours on are now dead, he's the reason the platform I was backing is now, as far as everyone I know is concerned, is dead and ah fuck it. You're so far up the team's ass that any conversation is pointless, you have absolutely zero objectivity.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:10:08
content:
  This is what I mean. This is such a simplified take of what happened that it misses ALL of what was involved in this,


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:10:37
edit_date: 2022-07-02 17:07:49
content:
  Disingenuous to the point of being almost an outright lie. Prime keeps fucking doing it too and it winds me up.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:11:49
edit_date: 2022-07-02 17:08:10
content:
  I'm here mostly to vent because nothing is going to get me back all the money and time I spent in Neos. I'm angry beyond words, but people like you who act like the team are blameless make my blood boil.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:14:19
content:
  I don't expect anyone on the team or anyone related to them to take me seriously anyway, that stopped being a thing long before I left the Discord.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:15:47
content:
  It'd also not be true, but sure, continue to bullshit me and pretend that I'd obviously know considering that I was working ON the content.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:34:44
edit_date: 2022-07-02 16:35:17
content:
  He's not. He's just loud so people are talking about him, and he'll talk candidly so people are speculating on what he is saying a lot. I still remember when Nex was the 'lynchpin' because Karel 'fired' him and clearly that was the only reason Froox et al were upset. 

  There are no conveniently accurate reductions to this clusterfuck, just targets of convenience. Not that you can't be upset or feel dismissed/splashed/othered by people talking up their own reductions. I think it's valid criticism. At some point we are all going to reduce the situation to understandable stories and each of our perspectives is going to have blind spots and biases.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:47:44
content:
  Counterpoint. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/992833864584138792/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 16:49:42
content:
  Also I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? It's a known fact that that team have been on strike for nearly 9 months now, *nothing* has been fixed during that time. So I don't know why you're showing my GitHub history of things being closed BEFORE that point in time. Development ceased in November 2021 and that's that. Issues since then have (obviously) been ignored.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 17:05:01
edit_date: 2022-07-02 17:05:10
content:
  Not looking currently looking at github or that list of issues specifically but it looks like most of those have several comments atleast so I wouldn't go with ignored. Sure due to other circumstances nothing has been done to fix them but as you mentioned and as we've seen near nothing has been released in the last 9 months. Only releases have been security fixes


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 17:10:07
content:
  But yeah, the thing Cyro picked up on made no sense considering (when I mentioned it in the past, I haven't mentioned it recently, so also odd) it was in reference to the strike.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 22:01:53
content:
  Generally yeah. I am slightly worried about this, though I couldn't find case law that was really close to this situation when I looked. The fact that no contracts existed at all makes the whole situation really weird.

  Though the way I see it, the way that things end up going if the IP claims end up resting with Solirax and if both sides are willing to go scorched earth, we're probably looking at a judicial dissolution.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 22:08:11
content:
  I think that was an NDA. I remember him talking about it too, though not so much the specifics. I would ask him to confirm but honestly his tme with Solirax is a bit of a sore spot and I'd rather not >.>


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 22:13:52
content:
  I mean extremely valid. Dual licensing with gpl is also a good strategy if you want to be in a position to charge corporate clients for their secret sauce inclinations.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 22:17:44
content:
  Yep! IMO don't roll your own licenses, crypto (lol, the phrase aged poorly [or did it]), shopping cart or timezone handling. XD


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 23:12:05
content:
  For closed source projects, you don't always have/need a license.

  We just signed NDAs, these don't attribute any rights to any work.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 23:13:45
content:
  What neos needed was probably some form of contributor license agreement. But they did not have one. That's different than a regular license such as MIT which was mentioned above. It's a document which says that an entity owns your contributions


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 23:21:29
content:
  That's why I said some form. 

  Additionally CLAs can be seen for closed source projects. I've signed a few.


type: message
date: 2022-07-02 23:26:14
content:
  The model was weird from the get go tbh. I've not seen this sort of arrangement before WRT having quazi-staff. Like, takng external patches from a security researcher, yeah, but not in a way where like, there was any sort of expectation to work on a roadmap or have consistent contributions.


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 18:01:41
content:
  Why has no one tried to design a meteverse based on traditional web browsing structure? What I mean by that is just a websight you can visit that sends your computer information for rendering a websight but it is a VR environment as apposed to just a flat webpage.

  I have zero web design expirance so maybe I sound like an idiot... but I always pictured the metaverse as just websights you visit and maybe some of them host public multiuser sessions.


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 18:19:49
content:
  Not "cool" enough, it was interesting for nerds but wasn't anything amazing or "next gen" enough to really grab people. It was very limited and didn't allow for any really advanced or cool stuff.


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 18:27:56
content:
  Is this something that would be possible to create as an open source project? Or are we trying to build skyscrapers here?

  I just feel like we are wasting time waiting for some company to build a product that is in the end just going to be a limited closed system.


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 19:43:33
content:
  A-frame and hubs by extention was an interesting project, though very limited. No IK, limited to webgl feature sets and three.js weirdness. Not great for complex environments or super interactive scenes.


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 20:16:52
edit_date: 2022-07-04 20:44:51
content:
  If hubs is open source, could stuff like IK be community made? Or are there limitations that are just insurmountable due to, I guess webgl and three.js. I'm not sure what those are and how that effects the limitationa.

  Edit: Did some basic research on what three.js is (Javascript) and WebGL. It says at least three.js has kenomatics. What is the weirdness associated with three.js?


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 21:22:54
content:
  You could get IK running by extending hubs, probably. Though I don't know what the overhead would look like in terms of the networking model. The weirdness associated with three.js is a lot XD one that I'm aware of is that materials are limited to 1.5 UVs (.5 because the second uv can only be used for AO IIRC) it's also limited to the WebGL graphics features, which IIRC tracks with OpenGL ES 3.0. it's a bit wonky


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 22:24:04
content:
  Most of the time when I attend meetings like that they assume I'm using a Snapchat style filter or I'm using pre recorded video


type: message
date: 2022-07-04 22:26:11
content:
  As a product person, they're great for smaller teams but at the corporate scale GitHub project boards don't yet have enough features compared to say Jira ado or Asana etc


type: message
date: 2022-07-05 01:00:05
content:
  Just got back from my trip. There was also Janus, but I could never really figure out how it worked specifically. It can render regular web pages and if you throw another service on top, it can allow multiple users to see each other. I'm not sure how much further that was developed either...


type: message
date: 2022-07-05 01:01:52
content:
  I do know it had a webGL client, a bit like Mozilla Hubs, and it was lite enough that you could run it in a simple chromium panel if the VR platform supported it. It was pretty bizarre stuff at the time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-05 03:09:27
content:
  Hi, not sure if anyone would know of a component where it copies the location, rotation and scale of an object or bone. All I can remember is that it possibly starting with u


type: message
date: 2022-07-05 08:58:37
content:
  Still waiting for a response @malooniac in regards to private Dm a quick response will be appreciated thanks


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 09:05:47
edit_date: 2022-07-06 09:15:55
content:
  That's exactly what he said and it is mind boggling you don't see it and the childish maliciousness in his behavior.


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 18:39:46
content:
  What is the best way for me to contact someone who can help me with my account?  My syncing has stopped and I cannot enter my Home world which said it was corrupted and recovered on restart.


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:19:45
content:
  Enverex.  Thank you.  I have 100GB free and 40% of Neos 1GB free.  My home world appears to be corrupted - and so I am stuck.  Cannot save to inventory, cannot sync.   Would you know of a specific person I could contact on discord for support?


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:21:38
content:
  There's a help channel on there which would be obvious when you join. That said, do you have anything that you wanted to keep or needed to sync that isn't already saved to your inventory? If not, you can delete your Neos local folders to clear everything.


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:23:18
content:
  Thank you.  I cleared the local folders and I left a message in the discord help.  My client is totally stuck - so I am feeling a little desparate.


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:30:47
content:
  If you cleared the local folders then it shouldn't be trying to sync. Was it the Solirax folder in AppData that you deleted?


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:44:36
edit_date: 2022-07-06 20:45:09
content:
  I think what @RealEnverex said is likely the case, the Neos litedb along with the Data folder contain your local home and cloud cache - if you relaunched Neos after clearing and did not re-enter the tutorial and did not have to login again, you may have left those elements on your HD


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:46:52
content:
  It's hard to corrupt the cloud home, but it can happen. You can also try resetting it by adding a parameter to the Neos launcher to block the cloud home from loading and setting up a new cloud home


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:50:55
content:
  Ah, so that's the cache. You'll find the Neos data folders under your AppData/LocalLow/Solirax/NeosVR


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 20:51:33
content:
  Deleting this content will reset your client back to the defaults so anything in your Local Home will be lost and any unsynced records will also be lost.


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 21:26:43
content:
  worth pointing out, albeit a bit late, but you can also attempt to use "-DatabaseRepair" to attempt to let the client fix the corruption. I've had this only occur once, but the repair process was fairly painless


type: message
date: 2022-07-06 21:27:34
content:
  Saves the headache of having to go through the tutorial, login credentials, and folder navigation. Clearing out the appdata folder should really be a last resort


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 06:28:02
content:
  wow... lots of hostility... also, I was late to the whole thing.
  https://wiki.neos.com/Database_repair


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 06:39:58
content:
  ...I'm sorry I even mentioned there was a better method...
  Like, even something simple and constructive additions to topics are just shot down here.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 06:42:13
edit_date: 2022-07-07 06:42:30
content:
  anyway, I'll take the discussion of if the database repair function should be added to the FAQ elsewhere, since any further discussion here will be fruitless...


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 06:43:51
content:
  yeah. The issue is that the FAQ mentions "the client will attempt to repair it next launch" but I recall having to use the argument so... not sure if that is a bug or just outdated notes


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:05:01
content:
  lol - did the database repair first.  It did not help.  Cleared the cache next.  It did not help.  Deleting the app folder fixed the issue.  I think the best thing I could suggest for Neos is to do a better job of showing errors in the client, rather than failing silently.  My first indication of a problem was that I could not enter a world that I had been working on.  No error - just failed silently.  Next indication of an issue was that the client would not shut down - stuck on syncing.  Still no error messages.  I finally searched for and looked at the logs and just saw a security error.  But the logs did not show the root cause.  My theory about the root cause is that the database or an asset was corrupted, and that the repair process partially worked, but did not set some attribute of the world properly - resulting in a security error.  The fact that the client was stuck syncing (with no timeout, or indication of error) shows that the syncing part of the code could use a little attention.  Such as showing an errror, then continuing to perform other tasks with other assets, rather than hanging in an infinite loop.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:38:24
content:
  The feedback can exist anywhere, for the team to actually keep track of it and consolidate issues they need to be tickets or github issues otherwise they easily get lost in chat histories


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:40:50
content:
  many db/syncing issues also sort themself out with a restart. But yeah I'd agree the client should have a better method to attempt to resync instead of halting all of them on a single failure


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:40:57
content:
  Absolutely, everything must be captured in a ticket.  Chat is not a good place until much later - when a mature company can affort to monitor social media for key insights.  For now, it is incumbent upon the users and the developers to keep track of issues using a system.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:41:39
content:
  In terms of UI/UX -  Fantastic products die in the marketplace all the time when their target audience becomes confused or frustrated. UI/UX is the interface to the users/market, and as such is often far more important to the success of a product than even the product features themselves.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:42:17
content:
  At a larger scale, they would being having people specifically monitoring chats/social for issues and replicating or refining the issue and creating tickets instead


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:42:55
content:
  Developers tend to focus on what they consider to be "real" or "important".  However, their perspective is often about what is "real" or "important" to the deveolopers!  It is a meme/trope that developers typically design horrible UI's.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:45:26
content:
  For my company, I have created and maintain teams for monitorying social media, support, chat, etc.  The tools available for doing this are very mature and quite easy to use.  Once you get to a certain level as a company you really want to pay close attention to your users - they are the primary vector for improving your products.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:45:48
content:
  Because there are existing solutions in place for an issue and the issue doesn't come up too often. it isn't high on the priority list. Considering it is dealing with saving and syncing inventory items, I think it should be higher up for a fixing. But at the moment it is at a standstill either way


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:48:01
content:
  Prioritization of what should get developer attention can be difficult at the beginning of a product's life.  There is always too much to do in comparison to the size of the dev team.  However, prioritization must be connected to the users.  Their priorities must be used to guide the development of the product.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:49:41
content:
  The users can direct the priority to a degree using 'reactions' on github or using the Priority Voting system


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:51:27
content:
  but just because it is at the top doesn't mean it is immediately the next thing. There are also roadmaps for planning out when things can be added based on prerequisite features


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 14:52:05
content:
  Yep.  That is a good start.  I was mostly responding to earlier comments about the low priority of UX.  This could be an indication that dev is not sufficiently linked to user priorities.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 15:37:28
content:
  gathering feedback on thousands of items isn't feasible at a larger scale for a single or small hand full of devs. hence why tickets and gh issues exist.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 15:41:11
edit_date: 2022-07-07 15:41:23
content:
  I remember full body not working properly was a top voted complaint (and a thing a bunch of my friends REALLY hated about Neos) for literally years.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 15:42:00
content:
  They do? when working on an issue any additional context needed or troubleshooting and discussion does happen. but expecting them or an unpaid volunteer to be doing this for tons of them shouldn't be expected. Esp. when several issues are made with enough context that it isn't needed for a fix


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 15:46:09
content:
  We can't see Patreon votes here and those have likely all changed now anyway what with a lot of people cancelling Patreon, but this is how the GitHub only voting looks, ordered by user votes. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/994630359478173867/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 15:55:32
edit_date: 2022-07-07 15:55:54
content:
  Ironically Sansar has come back to life while Neos died, due to new management. Looks like they're trying to get absolutely everything running again and going back to full dev work.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:02:47
edit_date: 2022-07-07 16:03:23
content:
  Prior to Geenz and Prime joining a year or so ago, there was only really Froox and Shifty that did anything user facing. With Froox doing code and Shifty doing triage and user support. All the other team members had very specialist roles, such as 3D designer, Sound Engineer, etc (though I'm honestly dying  to know what those guys are doing 99% of the time given no content that features anything those roles imply ever really comes out except on very rare occasions, like the new MTC).


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:21:18
content:
  As a long-time entrepreneur, software-business owner, and developer, I believe the team is doing a good job considering what I can see and deduce about the health of their start-up.  It is normal for a technical start-up to be focused on the nuts and bolts of the underlying product featres.  It is normal for developers to assign UI/UX issues to a lower priority than "engine" issues.  It is normal for developers to burn-out when they must also do support, or are asked to task-switch between various fires.  Getting past start-up is really, really tough.  I think this product has legs, but the funding to push it over the top probably needs to increase a lot.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:22:50
edit_date: 2022-07-07 16:48:23
content:
  I mean, there's been no development for 9 months now and the platform is haemorrhaging users. It's reputation is also shot now so... yeah.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:25:38
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:03:47
content:
  They exist, but are on-strike and thus refuse to push any updates for the game. Prime claims they're not on strike, which... is odd as I'm not sure what else you'd call refusing to work.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:26:48
content:
  I see.  That sidtuation is usually caused by not getting adequately paid, but still hoping that you will be paid.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:27:56
content:
  Prime does (or rather did), Geenz does, Froox is getting £2500+ p/m from his personal Patreon, not sure about Veer. Everyone else was unpaid anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:29:28
content:
  The funny thing is, is that Froox is now personally getting more money than he would have when actually working on Neos, so now he's basically getting paid to... not work on Neos? lol


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:30:51
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:04:33
content:
  The team seem adamant that they're in the right and that everything will be fine (but forget the damage that this going on for so long causes). I think everyone else that isn't a die-hard Neos user has already left.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:39:03
content:
  I like the concept behind Neos, because I specialize in building systems that allow non-developers to access capabilites that are normally only accessible to developers.  I am currently filling the role of Enterprise Architect and SVP with a major global company focussed on the whole distribution chain, including marketing, delivery, point-of-sale, logistics, etc.  I want to use Neos to demonstrate a functioning virtual convenience store to our major customers (who are also global companies).  Neos seemed perfect for creating a marketable VR experience in this space.  the key is the ability to inject rudimentary logic/code into VR experiences.  When I entered Neos for the first time I was getting nervous about the apparent decay - and second-lifedness of it.  Lots of sad abandonment apparent.  But as you say, there appears to be a lively community.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:42:02
content:
  After spending around 25 hours in Neos, it is clear that it is extremely rough around the edges.  Buggy, poor UI's, lack of attention to the non-developer, non-graphics-savy person.  Luckily, I am a long time developer and graphics developer - so the UI is fine for me?  The underlying concept is well executed (even if it is mostly just exposing the underlying game engine.)


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:43:12
content:
  I have an Index, I want to build complex logic for doing marketing and retail operations into the VR experiences.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:45:18
content:
  It very much depends what you're trying to do. Build something? Unity is better by far. Tweak something minor? Neos was easier.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:45:27
content:
  Lol.  Unity is a monster.  Whenever a system becomes generalized (everything for everyone), it inevitably becomes a frankensien.  So, it is normal for these generalized systems to get "wrapped" in interfaces that expose key functionality in sensible ways.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:47:05
content:
  Yes, the "wrapping" process is basically just an adapter pattern.  Adapter patterns shield you from "dependency poisononing", creating stability.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:48:16
content:
  Wrapping an engine like Unity will allow Neos to provide backward compatibility.  So, if Unity makes a breaking change, Neos can make adjustments to shield its users from these changes.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:48:28
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:06:55
content:
  You're not going to get objective answers from Cyro, Dana so just so you're aware, Neos is VERY barebones when it comes to creation. There's currently no way to search for gameobjects/slots, components, can't search when adding them, you cannot even multi-select objects in game yet so positioning things and building can take obscenely tedious amounts of time to do what should be simple tasks because the very basics are still not even there yet.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:49:37
content:
  This is true.  Many UI features are missing, including multi-select.  But, I just use inspector to group objects.  It all sucks and is way too time consuming.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:49:37
content:
  If you're wondering what position I'm speaking from, I have around 2500 hours developing content for Neos and I have no affiliation to the team or any of the team members.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:52:19
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:07:42
content:
  Affiliation with the team is why you're the least objective person I've ever met, Cyro. It feels like I could have a conversation criticizing Facebook with Mark Z and it would be more objective.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:53:38
content:
  Yes.  That makes sense.  I could tell you have used the system quite a lot.  My position is that I have been a software developer for decades.  I have coded in most computer languages extensivly.  I have launched and sold several software companies.   I still code daily and I absolutely love startups and I love systems that allow non-developers to develop stuff.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:55:27
edit_date: 2022-07-07 16:55:41
content:
  So Neos is very cool to me - and I am sad to see that it may be on the path towards a sad empty death.  When the users start to leave.... I have sad memories of watching many game-worlds die - standing there in an empty world that was once alive.  A dead world is so sad...


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:56:46
content:
  After using Udon in a standard blueprint environment, it did remind me how utterly painful using Logix was in a 3D space. So much time was spent doing janitorial work that simply didn't need to exist.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:57:58
content:
  It is maddening.  I have specialized in UI/UX for so many years.  I have US patents on UI/UX frameworks.  And it is obvious that Neos needs some help in this area.  But if the thing is dying...


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:59:36
content:
  It's literally just the same contingent of people with random users poping in to see what the platform is that's propping up the numbers.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 16:59:52
content:
  A few years back I invented some marketing things.  I want to connect my Neos convenience store with my API's - Fuel Rewards Network and GasBuddy.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:04:00
content:
  The question for me: is there a way for me to leverage this platform while also helping it succeed?  OR should I run away?  My gut tells me to give it a shot.  I like the concept a lot.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:05:19
edit_date: 2022-07-07 17:05:34
content:
  One of the big issues I had with Logix is that it's an absolute nightmare to move it around as you'd have to move a single node at a time all while in 3D space, which also results in you "running out of space". I tend to build organically so it'll expand over time as I evolve it (and find out extra stuff is needed to make things work due to unforseen edge cases) but the result of this becomes absolute nightmares like this.  It's all good and well working on little things but when stuff gets messy, it's incredibly time consuming to refactor it. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/994650188650131567/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:06:34
content:
  So firstly, they didn't exist at the time. Secondly, I can't rely on random people's tools to do things that are so close to the core of how things function. Additionally if those tools ever fucked up, the teams response would be "Well it's a community tool, oh well".


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:07:12
content:
  And on top of that, I've had people's tools fuck up to the point where they broke or ruined worlds, so again, not a situation I want to be in.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:08:57
edit_date: 2022-07-07 18:46:47
content:
  Dana Hopefully you're seeing what I mean regarding Cyro here; Neos absolutely cannot be incomplete, imperfect. In every scenario, there's an answer or you're just simply using it wrong.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:10:54
content:
  Yes there is a lot of decay.  But, I created a decent convenience store.  I am going to give a tour to a bunch of executives who know nothing about gaming or programming, but who think that the "metaverse" is the next big thing (without a clue what the metaverse might be.  lol.)


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:12:10
edit_date: 2022-07-07 17:12:37
content:
  There's no other way to read it, this is the issue I have with you. You literally cannot accept any criticism of Neos, ever, for any reason, regarding anything. It's infuriating beyond belief. It's like speaking to someone that's been completely brainwashed, it's absolutely crazy.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:15:33
content:
  Over the years, I have created many successful products that people said were delusional before they were made.  But somehow - after it exists - the same people label it realistic!


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:16:09
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:16:05
content:
  You get kicked off the moderation and mentor teams if you speak badly of Neos publicly so... yeah...


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:21:04
content:
  please dont get sucked into the negativity
  people in neos can help you use it but no one uses neos here


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:21:39
edit_date: 2022-07-07 17:22:29
content:
  So, what I hear is that the game is in trouble, but there may be hope.  I am going to do my convenience store demo.  And the advice is that I should go to discord to find technical help if I need it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:25:49
content:
  I wonder if the Neos team would be open to a discussion?  What I am trying to accomplish might represent an opportunity for Neos.  I tried sending an email about what I wanted to do, but I never got a reply.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:29:28
content:
  Yeah, keep in mind that Neos sold business accounts (in the form of Neos Pro) who have all also been left out to dry.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:30:12
content:
  Well, I will at least try contacting via discord and see what happens.  I don't think I need anything from the team.  But if this idea I am working on has legs, it might have some benefit to them.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:30:30
content:
  Relying on Neos for anything at this point seems like the equivalent of trying to build on a rotting bridge. You may be ok but it's a serious risk.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:34:22
edit_date: 2022-07-07 21:22:59
content:
  Blockchain is just a tool that brings potential trust to a distributed system.  I employ it in specific systems for specific purposes.  But for this idea - not really.  This is just about using a virtual space for marketing.  I have marketing dollars from manufacturers that could be applicabale to games and virtual spaces.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 17:35:56
content:
  I have built many things on rotting bridges.  So no issue there in the short term.  But in the long term, I will go directly to Unity if I cannot understand the long-term plan or viability of Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 18:06:41
edit_date: 2022-07-07 18:09:34
content:
  UI is on a backseat like all development till this issue is resolved 
  Serious reports of rule violations must be submitted as a ticket for the moderation team to review. This is not my policy this is the moderation leads policy.

  The state of many areas of neos is not finished. That's bad yes but there's not much that can be done until work resumes.

  I don't want money from Karel. I've never asked for money from Karel


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 18:14:09
content:
  I'm sorry you've had that experience I have pages and pages of your incredibly valid and valuable feedback in my to-do list for Neos to try and resolve when I can and read every item of feedback you had. I regularly implement stuff that's based directly on criticism from even our most vocal users. I'm just not able to continue this approach right now.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 18:15:25
content:
  I appreciate the effort you've put in Prime, even if you are sometimes annoyingly disingenuous on occasion.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 18:16:54
content:
  If I am this way, please let me know and I'll try to explain. Some of what you'll see is pr style language that's used in cases where items are outside of my control.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 18:21:31
edit_date: 2022-07-07 19:03:11
content:
  Prime just wants more control himself, trying to push out Karel for his own gain. Don’t buy his PR bs


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 18:24:12
content:
  If anything I want less control. My goal in a lot(not all) of what I do is to do it or automate it until I don't need to do it.

  An example here being the policies I put in place for modding and security. Those policies might not be perfect but they do reduce the confusion and save a few tickets a week.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 19:26:47
content:
  That's not the best path unfortunately. They don't usually accept messages directly. Depending on your inquiry type there are better vectors


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 19:48:46
content:
  Cool - I was just trying to follow some advice given here in an earlier thread.  If anyone has an idea of how best to contact Frooxius, please let me know.  I want to talk about the possibility of leveraging Neos for virtual convenience stores that allow general commerce, POS, payment, loyalty and marketing. My company currently has most national US c-store chains, product manufacturers/brands and major oils as customers for our c-store products. Some of our customers are interested in marketing into virtual spaces and games.  Thanks.


type: message
date: 2022-07-07 19:50:15
content:
  I sent an email to that address and never received an answer.  It has been weeks.  So, maybe they are no longer answering their mail.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 01:04:04
content:
  Depending when you bought in, you might be able to benefit or at least reduce any further loses with the buybacks. As to when they occur, no one knows.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 14:48:29
content:
  Hey guys, any discord mods/admins here? I just woke up and saw a notification that I got yeeted from NeosVR's discord even tho I don't even remember talking there, so it made me curious and I want to ask the reason


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 15:31:47
content:
  They seems to have a huge flood of spam bots so they they probably try to clean and there was maybe a lot of false positive. Try joining again maybe and ask?


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 15:36:04
content:
  Hum okay strange, well i think open a moderation ticket will be the best way to go about it and start a talk with the moderation team


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 15:40:57
content:
  While for the business email you can say that i actually dont know the response time of the moderation tickets


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:12:16
content:
  That's annoying because I got a lot of good information there for solving problems in the world I am trying to build.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:20:12
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:24:11
content:
  I wonder why someone would do that.  It seems that the user community is one of the most valuable things that Neos has right now.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:23:52
edit_date: 2022-07-08 16:24:02
content:
  It might have been a mistake, can you send in a moderation ticket using the link above so the Moderators can review what occurred? Provide your Discord user name / ID to help them locate your account


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:27:06
content:
  Huh, that's weird. I thought Raith made something bespoke for the ticket system, but it's been replaced with OSTicket?


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:32:56
content:
  Dana Did you sign up for Neos back in May last year? In which case, you're not banned from Neos itself.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:42:15
content:
  Looks like that's been the system for quite some time, but funny I thought the same thing. I pulled up a ticket I submitted in March and it was showing OSTicket then


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:43:39
content:
  I found one from November and it's also pulling up my ticket - so maybe the footer wasn't there before? The style does look a bit different to me come to think of it


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:45:36
content:
  It looks completely different than I remember. Maybe they imported all the old tickets and set up redirects to handle the old ones?


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 16:55:10
content:
  Visually it changed after the Wayback machine captured it on March 31st, so it's the same system - just never had the OSTicket logo at the bottom


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 17:04:10
content:
  Looking at the source, there are osticket/ost references so that was the system in place, but the design and a lot of the elements are different. Also got confirmation on Discord that it's still the same system


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 17:26:46
edit_date: 2022-07-08 17:29:22
content:
  Looks like some nice person unbaned me after I submitted a ticket.  So thank you here for helping me understand that I should submit a ticket.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 17:30:13
content:
  For something like that, I think it's safe to say the moderation team was aware that tickets would be rolling in regarding appeals, so anyone else who accidentally got hit can most likely get it fixed in a short time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 17:44:55
edit_date: 2022-07-08 18:13:54
content:
  I was reading Karel's statement.  It kills me because I have been through that situation many times as a startup.  In the early part of may carreer, I was the techincal founder who always ended up feeling abused by the process of transitioning to an actual company.  I hated giving up certain types of control.  BUT - later on, after going through the process a couple of times, it was clear that the technical founder is usually not qualified to organize a company made up of multiple people.  I remember when I had to work with my first Product Manager.  I was so angry that tthey prioritized the work differently than I wanted!  Didn't they understand how important it was to (insert random technical detail here that nobody but me really cares about)?


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 18:37:09
content:
  I don't believe the competing priorities had much to do with the current situation, but didn't help in the way they were presented/decided. Most of the priorities set by Karel and Andrea were already deemed priorities by the Team / Patreon; just in a different priority order from the existing roadmap. I think the concerns were that this set of priorities did not have any input from the Team or by Froox by the time they were presented to the Team/Board, which caused additional tension.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 18:39:59
content:
  (To be clear, the Board I'm referring to is/was the Board of Advisors, the Patreon board level - Neos does not have a Board of Directors)


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 18:43:03
content:
  TL;DR - There were a multitude of issues that piled up, there was no one single issue that lead to the current situation.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 19:33:31
content:
  I think we can all agree on that. But we struggle to agree on the incredibly irresponsible way they reacted to that pressure.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 19:52:58
content:
  I was confused by this too when I joined, but when I reached out to Karel and asked what legal responsibilities I have he explained that it was not a legal board.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 19:53:55
content:
  What we were given was the privilege to join a monthly meeting for our contribution which did entitle us to have discussions and input as well as receiving information sometimes before things were shared publicly. It did not give us any access to team meetings or any special group or discord access.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 19:54:30
content:
  I still am owed a meeting for my donation in February, however I decided to drop off after that since no further meetings would be happening and I was worried about where my money was going.


type: message
date: 2022-07-08 20:36:59
content:
  But, when Neos gets sorted out, I would consider rejoining. I still strongly believe in the project and hope for its future.


type: message
date: 2022-07-11 21:32:37
content:
  Here we go again 🥲

  https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/941727532779200593/996158429636857916


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 15:01:27
content:
  The same does the Discord polls back then only in the ncr channel and with not much explaining. 
  That was the first big trustbreak that I noticed and where a lot of people were very worried.


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 15:31:09
edit_date: 2022-07-12 15:42:56
content:
  people are still fairly distraught. I've spoken to quite a few people who still feel the same concerns akin to the polling incident. They look around, see fewer and fewer people coming on, and just feel discouraged because of the current issues unfolding.


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 17:38:26
content:
  Well, it keeps not responding and responding again and taking a while to load on my computer for some reason


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 17:56:27
content:
  also worth asking, but which version are you using? There's the one from Steam, which will install in a SteamLibrary folder. The one from the website installs by default in your main drive.


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 18:16:51
content:
  I remember feeling like we were being used to justify an internally unpopular decision. The polls felt constructed, especially when the first vote rejected the token burn only for it to pivot to ending the ico anyway but now with staking :P


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 18:19:15
edit_date: 2022-07-12 18:27:08
content:
  not to mention, the whole "this will not be the final decision, it's just to understand people's opinion" aspect... which, in turn, ended up not being the case


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 18:20:15
edit_date: 2022-07-12 18:27:12
content:
  it just turned the discord into a flame war as pump and dumpers flooded in and skewed the polls. The people actually using Neos weren't aware, because it wasn't even an announced poll until someone announced it via the bot to get user's attention


type: message
date: 2022-07-12 18:25:03
edit_date: 2022-07-12 18:27:16
content:
  honestly, I think the polls were less of the issue, and the fact that such a critical opinion survey was being done without informing actual users properly. It just resulted in an immediate distrust, since some people who were in Neos did hold some value to NCR and even had meets to talk about exchanging and the like (which oddly occurred not too long before the polls). Effectively, failing to disclose something that could alter their finances, be it being taken seriously or otherwise, is a good way to disway public opinion


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:12:36
content:
  the price dropped immediately after Froox made his announcement. You can easily see this if you zoom in. Infact, the price increased after CEO made his announcement.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:14:14
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:30:58
content:
  It was when Froox announced that they wanted to make NCR "third party" and detailed this really ill conceived afterthought of a way they could scam the users they had been selling it to that the price dropped some 50% in a single day (NCR's biggest percentage price drop ever)


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:17:15
content:
  quite honestly, the price dropped because it was unsustainable. It could be argued that NCR could have ran to god-knows past its $10~ top had it been given anything other than an attitude of indifference from the developers, but it was never going to go from like $.20 to $10 and just stay around there without big retraces in price


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:20:21
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:31:21
content:
  No one either on the dev team or in that discord has had any exposure to a market in their lives (like they pretend to) and imo the normal movements in an illiquid shitcoin market NCR was being traded on likely caused internal fussing that they emotionally couldn't handle.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:23:16
content:
  and also it was the hinting of a burn announcement that caused a raise in price. It was after Karel backtracked on the burn that there was a dump, as one would expect. That's fine and all but it was so goddamn sloppy. If there's anything you can lay at Karel's feet it's probably the way those things were handled, which likely hurt alot of people and was a mistreatment of his customers


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:24:02
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:31:39
content:
  however that's nothing in comparison to the abuse the "devs" performed on their own customers, and the mistreatment and labeling they still encourage in their community to this day.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:26:31
content:
  it seems to me Karel might have been in communication with some exchanges and wanted to get their token onto them. Many of the bigger ones, as far as I know, won't let you list your token when an ICO is active.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 04:28:51
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:31:56
content:
  Unfortunately this is one of many bold lies being told in the discord, but since you could literally say anything anti-Karel and it will be believed without doubt you all believe this.

  It's also so easy to check and see it's bullshit, which makes it all the more hilarious that you come in here peddling it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 10:55:00
content:
  very obviously, though they tried to be abit sly about it by utilizing their community to go to war for them.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 11:00:45
content:
  at the same time when people would suggest really ill conceived shower-thoughts about how to remove NCR, they'd eagerly chime on with "Hmmmm this is interesting!! Good suggestions community!"


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 11:05:23
content:
  I also think there's an emotional element, since all of them sold they have no incentive to care. Infact it feels kind of good when something you've sold basically dies.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 11:07:36
content:
  and the other element being the devs seem to desperately need their attention and to be treated like little lords. Neos basically exists for that end. And for them to defend something unpopular threatens that and emotionally I dont think any of them have the spine to weather that from their furry suckups.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 12:07:44
content:
  CDFT. The community development fund token. Basically, every nth batch of NCR that gets minted, you get a percentage of your CDFT turned into NCR with eventually all of the CDFT turned into NCR at the end of the ICO. At the end of the day, it's NCR, but supposed to be on a drip feed to encourage more community development. I have not seen anything from my CDFT for a very long time because frankly no one mints anymore XD (and for good reason, mind you)


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 12:14:58
content:
  What would be important to see is how much dev NCR was sold before they announced their desire to make it third party.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 12:26:46
edit_date: 2022-07-13 12:27:03
content:
  at any rate it would show there was a time when they cut all ties to their funders, then took action to announce they wanted to drop the token


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 12:32:26
content:
  Another point is, even if they sell their ncr, which they had all right too when they are partially being paid in it, it would not have caused a significant pricedrop.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 13:19:20
content:
  Then they shouldn't have been paid in ncr in the first place anyway. But as been told many times, its not about the pay. People just make a fus about the misleading false claims


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:27:41
content:
  Token, but given as what though? I think Token may still imply compensation for work. Since that's not how it was given, just trying to find a better phrase for folks who keep propagating that it was given as compensation


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:28:38
content:
  The white paper says reward. I think it's written as such to avoid issues. Same as the legal disclaimer.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:30:44
content:
  I mean, I can't go down to my local Subway and whip out my phone to hand over NCR or anything that isn't a Mastercard or Visa electronically. If I was paid with a token, I'd feel rather ungratified.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:32:36
content:
  But if you loved Subway and felt strongly for it's mission and received hugs and NCR rewards, you might be content with that


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:35:33
edit_date: 2022-07-13 20:35:44
content:
  It's not. I got CDFT that minted to NCR for building something cool. It was a reward and I was happy to receive or or not. It was not under any obligations


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:36:05
content:
  It's wording was very clearly crafted to avoid that because it wasn't a promise for pay or an employment contract. Other community members received it. Oh and froox never got cdft


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:36:36
content:
  sum of money paid to an employee upon completion of a task, usually selling a certain amount of goods or services. Employers sometimes use sales commissions as incentives to increase worker productivity. A commission may be paid in addition to a salary or instead of a salary.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:37:53
edit_date: 2022-07-13 20:38:05
content:
  I would actually have to agree with this. Receiving what is advertised as a "currency" for work completed would be compensation. Doesn't matter if it's not USD or Euros.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:37:59
content:
  I'm not an employee, this wasn't pay and it was not a reward for tasks.

  2/3 of the Cdft I got was before I was on the team


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:38:41
content:
  As a volunteer for other non-profit orgs, I am not allowed to accept any "gifts" or "tokens" because that is compensation under US law.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:44:31
edit_date: 2022-07-13 21:00:55
content:
  I want neos back as much as anyone who actually plays it, but if anyone on the team claims receiving is NCR isn't compensation imma call BS on that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:46:55
edit_date: 2022-07-17 09:38:22
content:
  I wish you god-speed friend. Personally I wouldn't build my house on someone else's land, especially with how hostile VRC is to its users.


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 20:51:52
content:
  definitely had multiple discussions with people boasting VRC, and then they show me their mod list just to be able to do basic things. kind of a joke if you ask me


type: message
date: 2022-07-13 23:59:23
edit_date: 2022-07-14 00:41:33
content:
  People have lost access to VRChat for adding accessibility features, so it's very much a Zero-Tolerance policy.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 02:23:02
edit_date: 2022-07-14 02:37:59
content:
  This is due to neos using peer to peer networking as opposed to a master server. Upside: sessions don't go down if neos servers go down. Downside: host machine has to do a lot of work, exponentially more work for each user added


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 02:39:11
content:
  That and can't forget the ability to run on a LAN. Makes for a neat situation where a headless can be run to offload hosting purposes on your own network with a spare PC.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 02:55:45
content:
  Ability to run on LAN is nice for having less setup to join your own headless on your network since you join via lan while everyone else joins normally and it is fairly transparent to the user that it goes more directly


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:00:04
edit_date: 2022-07-14 03:24:01
content:
  It already exists and has existed for a long time as part of the headless server software. So it wouldn't be taking priority over anything?


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:00:51
content:
  Agreeable, lots of big features that get referred as a requirement for another feature should probably be alot higher in the list than they have been


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:03:14
content:
  Also wish they would accept some of the 'technical debt' of minor temporary fixes that improve the experience now instead of pushing minor UI fixes to the larger future UI reworks


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:04:30
edit_date: 2022-07-14 03:04:56
content:
  We occasionally do, I aligned the Float 3 and FloatQ fields for example. I actually have a bunch of smaller changes that are technically merged but we haven't shipped that update.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:06:18
edit_date: 2022-07-14 03:24:46
content:
  The settings UI getting a complete overhaul was actually what we wanted to do in Jan but that's when this whole stuff started. Settings being more flexible and sorta-never endless would have allowed for a ton of random tweaks to just be random checkboxes within that tab


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:07:26
content:
  Yeah that's why we're not just adding them. An overhaul will make it much more logical and segmented to make a lot more sense


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:12:04
content:
  The roadmap doesn't have an order currently. Settings was not pushed to the bottom nor was it moved anywhere else.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:19:14
content:
  Naw you got the right place. A card was never entered for the settings UI because we didn't get a chance to even start.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:20:04
content:
  It's more than that, because performance simply as a client is atrocious after more than half a dozen users, There's a lot that still needed to be addressed both client and server side.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:20:51
content:
  No it was we were breaking down the whole UI overhaul into smaller segments in a meeting. Settings was decided to be the next segment and then everything happened


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:30:40
edit_date: 2022-07-14 03:30:57
content:
  Myself or froox did it. I would frequently do it after each meeting toake sure stuff made sense. I had planned massive overhauls to how we structure that stuff


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:31:54
content:
  I think if you look in the update notifications on GitHub for many boards you'll see me routinely tidying up. I was also collating boards together.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:38:47
content:
  so stuff happened right at the very start of the UI update, which got as far as the settings being sorted or something


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:39:56
content:
  we broke it up into smaller chunks, saying "Do the whole UI" was causing circular conversations. 

  Settings allows us to provide a lot more... settings to you which can solve many pain points. Its also an opportunity to create and refine better standard UI elements as settings is basically an exercise in "Which form control do I need today"


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:41:34
content:
  We sometimes did or do. We just didn't that time because we decided to do settings and then everything happened.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:44:02
content:
  I know a ticket I put in was in regards to some of the settings UI stuff, with the reuslt being that it was planned but that the settings page itself was very complicated. I'm assuming it's less about rearranging and more along the lines of making a reusable system so adding more settings is more straight forward.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 03:45:03
content:
  Yeah, load the settings screen for many popular games and you'll see it gets complicated fast. We couldn't keep adding more checkboxes to the same page.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 11:20:01
content:
  Hi guys,
  new to the group and Neos. Would like to ask a quite simple question:
  What's the easiest way to access Neos Metaverse with my Oculus Go?

  Thanks a lot for the help!


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 11:23:00
content:
  Mhh... oh really, that is really a pitty. Is there a list of VR devices which is supported? Cannot find anything like that on neos.com


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 11:24:36
content:
  We support most common desktop headsets, quest support(untethered) is a work in progress. but you can play on a quest if it is tethered to your computer using oculus link etc.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 11:29:12
content:
  for entry level desktop probably HP Reverb G2 would be the closest thing I can recommend. I am not familiar with it though.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 15:26:51
edit_date: 2022-07-14 15:29:18
content:
  I have a Quest 2 and it's about the definition of "cheap entry level" options, though I wonder if you'd be better served by spending abit more or saving much more for something more advanced


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 15:28:31
edit_date: 2022-07-14 15:31:03
content:
  the HP Reverb G2 as previously mentioned goes on sale often enough if you check Slickdeals. This isn't a vouch for it, just saying.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:15:33
content:
  The quest 2 is good, it's just.... Facebook I guess. Bleh. I heard the screen in the g2 was great but the controllers were lacking?


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:25:01
edit_date: 2022-07-14 19:25:12
content:
  They did just put out a separation of the Facebook requirement. Granted, it's still a Meta account, which is an upgraded Oculus account, and is tied to the company but...


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:26:35
content:
  you'd be surprised. Quite a strong amount of people detest the company, and while the Quest 1 sold well, Quest 2's requirement was a very vocal disruption with the account requirements


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:28:44
content:
  but whatever. Bottom line, a rather large number of users avoided the headset due to the facebook requirement.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:29:49
content:
  but back on topic. The G2 doesn't seem too bad, but yeah, the controllers lack capacitive touch. Some titles do make use of it, mostly in social VR, so Neos would be partly affected by that


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:33:48
content:
  The main issues with the Quest 2 as a PCVR headset are the atrocious audio quality (it literally fires the audio away from you so it's even louder for everyone else), it's very front heavy, you'll be limited by battery life (even tethered) and there's significant visual degradation due to the video encoding used to send the picture to the headset. It's not the worst thing in the world but it's definitely got a lot of limitations.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:34:10
content:
  I've had two friends return the G2 due to it having terrible tracking, so that's something to be aware of.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:36:09
content:
  Their next gen headset isn't designed for the same market, it'll be priced around Index levels AFAIK, but that also means it should be very solid. That said, god knows what dodgy things they'll end up doing to make you regret it..


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:36:11
content:
  they did mention an offering of a dedicated device to handle the wireless stuff, but that doesn't address the battery issues... which was by design, since the reduced weight of the headset was by slashing the battery capacity.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:37:26
content:
  they sell that too... well, most everyone does anyway in the third party accessories, but their first party is an updated design that redistributes the weight of the headset better.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:38:08
content:
  Otherwise... besides this one other headset... the Quest is the most affordable and the lightest that can be acquired by a general consumer


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:39:47
content:
  Doesn't work. The charging mechanism overheats when the headset is being used and you'll notice it slowly losing charge even when plugged into a sufficient supply.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:40:12
content:
  Who doesn't recommend using VR more than 2 hours at a time anyway?  That's pretty short for most people's time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:41:45
content:
  must be a Quest 2 thing. My Quest 1 can last near indefinitely be it by battery or charge by outlet. Both a friend and family member who have a Quest 2 with batteries don't report any issues with bundled packs, and I have gone 6 hours with them, and no indication of drained batteries


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:45:10
content:
  It also just depends on what you are doing in general. If you are doing something like BeatSaber for 2 hours straight, then yeah, a break might be in order if you are doing it rather intensively. But if you are lounging around in social VR, then that is a bit different


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:48:20
content:
  Odd. I had this issue with both the Quest 1 and 2 and I've seen a lot of other confirmations that it's a thing...


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:50:26
content:
  I mean, I get the argument: in other cases, the screen is just an object in 3D space, which you can look away from and you do move around, so it isn't consistently always feeding to a user. A headset is different in that the screen's position and distance is consistent... but the honest solution to that?
  Remember to blink.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 19:51:10
content:
  but, even then, people have been eyeball hugging mobile phones for about as long and... while yes it's a separate device with variable distances and all that... still not seeing much from there


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 20:00:51
content:
  I use a 25 watt PD charger with my quest 2 in a basically always on configuration. It seems to work fine in pretty extended sessions.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 20:01:35
edit_date: 2022-07-14 20:01:43
content:
  Though you'd need a battery bank that supported high wattage PD charging, and those tend to be rather expensive.


type: message
date: 2022-07-14 20:28:39
content:
  I got an Anker battery as suggested by many reviews during the early days. It also adds a nice counter balance for the bulkier Quest 1


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 00:09:51
content:
  I get eye strain from vr, feels like hot sauce in the eye. Maybe better rendering techniques might be able to trick your eyes into different focusing and stuff but yeah. Idk about the biology of that. Genuinely good AR might help fix that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 00:10:48
content:
  Vr also has weird psychological problems, though. It can cause people to dissociate and derealize and have enhanced dreams and we don't have the data to know why


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 00:11:43
content:
  All that said, it is uncomfortable to have a headset connected to the Facebook company given how they use data and who has access to it en masse. Google is the same.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 00:14:06
content:
  Their entire model of super cheap headsets might not last though. A financial analyst I know was talking about how they've hinged everything on vr taking off like ready player one, and controlling the main metaverse applications. Internally, it's being kept alive by the insane amount of money that Facebook has generated.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 00:15:19
content:
  Them making extremely boring, limited, puritan created vr worlds with no legs is also a shot in the (invisible) foot


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 00:55:30
edit_date: 2022-07-15 11:16:03
content:
  The discomfort situation also is happening with many home appliances, particularly with the 'smart' devices. My DNS sink-hole is going bonkers dealing with some systems I have, and a particular company is beyond annoying in where their devices don't work without speaking to their primary servers. Considering the sensor array in some devices, it's a bit concerning at times, as well as annoying.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 00:57:09
content:
  To some length, the Quest fell a bit into the same situation, since it was put that after a specific date, their devices would only allow X type of sign-in. I haven't tried it yet, but I don't think there is a rock solid way to use a Quest without some kind of sign-in. I know you can tweak it afterwards to remove some services, but that's all 'after' the sign-in. Even my Pixel phone works without needing to be signed in at all.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 04:29:49
content:
  I would second the G2 Reverb that @ProbablePrime mentioned.

  Obviously, it's not the most advanced headset on the market, but if you just want to dip your toes into VR without breaking the bank, that is a great mid-range option. 
  It's only 90hz refresh rate but it has a 4K display and you can get it for about 400 USD nowadays I believe, which is less than half price of higher end headsets like Valve Index.
  Plus I really love the portability: It's light, feels comfortable, there are no base stations, so I've even carried it around airports with no problems. Just maybe with some odd looks from people haha!😁


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 11:18:37
content:
  Also about the Quest 2, atleast for me eye strain is sort of an issue. The setting for eye distance only has 3 settings, and although you can supposedly try to cheat it inbetween I havent been able to get it to stick


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 11:23:42
edit_date: 2022-07-15 11:24:05
content:
  Then again I'm sure I've gotten permanent eye damage just from phone use and I think VR eye damage is something that we might see more of in the future being reported. It took me like an hour to get my quest on in a way that wasnt straining my eyes and that involves me tightening the damn thing to my skull. Long sessions aren't possible for me until I upgrade (waiting to see how Deckard looks)


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 11:43:53
content:
  That shouldn't really happen with VR as it's not the distance to your eyes that maters, it's focal distance, which is around 6 meters on the Index for example.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 13:56:12
content:
  I always get a bit of double vision when being in VR for a long time. I've always thought it was an offset in IPD that I haven't been able to properly adjust for but who knows


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 14:28:32
content:
  I think what the Index reports is not the optical IPD, there's a lot of play in the slider I've noticed


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 14:32:40
content:
  I'm pretty sure it is. They included a guide in the box to measure your IPD... but I just got my number from my optometrist when I was last there, which was close to the number I got from guide


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 14:33:34
content:
  of course, there's also the issue that can arise when using glasses with a headset... since if two aren't aligned, then I can easily see that causing more issues than a simple misalignment and no glasses


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 14:55:53
content:
  Can recommemd vroptican for that in eu if needed.
  Got a pair of protection lenses, but their main offer is for Users that needs glasses or correction lenses.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 14:59:45
content:
  I've used WIDMOvr and VR Lens Lab for US orders, but I think WIDMOvr had me cover an import fee for some reason. I don't recall this being the case with the latter.


type: message
date: 2022-07-15 15:00:50
content:
  I strongly suggest lenses in either case, since the FOV you get when you don't have to worry about your own glasses scratching the lenses, and the 'goggles within goggles' view going away, is pretty critical


type: message
date: 2022-07-16 23:02:19
content:
  Hello! If I sent ETH to the wallet address on website following the minting protocol in the white paper using metamask, why do I not see any NCR in return? I did this a few weeks back


type: message
date: 2022-07-16 23:05:53
content:
  Because management is missing and the team is in turmoil. I recommend doing due diligence in future as there's a good chance that you'll never see that money again, if you do, it'll be a while. It's also exponentially worse monetarily to mint than it is to just buy NCR at this point. Mint cost is $14.72, where as actual buy price right now is about $0.28.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 03:01:25
content:
  I think part of the issue is you have people who ask how to make something... yet can't make anything anywhere else, and thus get stuck seeing the complexity of it all... when in all honesty, they weren't ready for the whole ordeal


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 03:02:14
content:
  learning to do stuff like that requires baby steps. Sure, it'd be cool to show someone hwo to RGB a cube or something, but it might be best to be like "Hey, you know that model you used in Unity to upload into VRC? Just drag it into here!"


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 03:05:06
content:
  How anyone can put up with matlab's bullshit and not jump at literally any other language is a mystery to me :P


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 03:06:24
content:
  A new user asked me how to make a gun and hadn't even seen logix or the inspector before, so I suggested he start somewhere simpler but he insisted on learning how to make a gun. I was impressed that he lasted about 15 minutes and asked some good questions and was actually understanding how it worked, but after that I never saw him on Neos again.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 03:07:18
content:
  Logix wouldn't be so bad if it were easier to manage. It's so messy in 3D space and just... it feels so unwieldly and DIY. For example here's making something in Udon, which in reality functions pretty much exactly like LogiX does, but it's SO MUCH CLEANER, and easier to move around, see what I'm doing, etc. It feels like Logix visually looks like a pre-alpha of this. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/995795000078127124/unknown.png


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 03:09:03
content:
  Eventually, all visual languages end up like normal languages: you can understand sections, but the overall ability to follow the whole becomes unfathomable.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 05:19:28
edit_date: 2022-07-18 05:58:00
content:
  Hi Everyone! I am new to Neos. I joined the world several times before but not sure where everyone were and what I should do. any recommendations?


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 05:57:29
edit_date: 2022-07-18 07:01:11
content:
  Good evening!
  Ultimately, it depends on what you want to do. If you are interested in building things, there are a handful of tutorials cover this. There is the Wiki as well.
  Right now, it's rather late at night for quite a few users, but during active hours, you can find people in sandbox worlds who can give further insight on any questions you have.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 06:01:00
edit_date: 2022-07-18 07:02:51
content:
  Anyway, despite my previous statement, I will be in-world working on something for a friend of mine. Cheers!


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 11:31:42
content:
  I think Neos Festa have given up on the English part of Neos. There's absolutely nothing in English about this year's Festa, everything is only in Japanese.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 15:51:14
content:
  I mean, the head dev is now getting over £2500 a month and not working on the project, so I guess they're laughing all the way to the bank at this point. No idea what's going on with Karel, he's been missing for weeks. Maybe he bought a yacht and fucked off to the Caribbean.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 16:59:54
content:
  I was explicitly told off by the team for trying to talk to Froox. He's too busy, no-one's allowed to talk to him. Also I don't think casually playing the game in his free time is something you pay money for...


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 17:03:41
content:
  Firstly, I didn't have any 8k textures, that was some bullshit one of the mods who liked to continually shit-talk me to other people kept telling everyone. Secondly, I've never "crashed anyone out" and third, that's not even an occasion I'm referring to.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 17:04:47
edit_date: 2022-07-18 19:50:33
content:
  But please, continue with that sort of conversation, while we have people with literally fucking aids as avatars on the mentor team.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 17:08:28
edit_date: 2022-07-18 17:28:08
content:
  Fuck ash. You used to be someone with values dude. You used to be someone other people could actually listen to, and take in the opinion of. Now you're a kink shaming dick weed that complains about a company sabatoging itself while you actively try to turn new users away from the platform.

  Wtf is the point of you skulking around here if you hate everything about it so much??? You used to care about damaging people, but now you've become one. You're so fucking toxic dude. Wtf happened to you???


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 17:13:25
edit_date: 2022-07-18 19:54:24
content:
  I'm angry with the platform, the people running it and the core users who pretend everyone involved in this mess are either completely innocent or can do no wrong. Then of course Firr bringing up things that remind me how actual staff members make things up and then repeat that to other users to stir hatred for people they don't like.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 17:15:34
content:
  I am not that indifferent about the situation either. I don't like what's happening and what's made public is only a fraction of the truth. However with careful observation one might see the actual culprit. That would however be something no one wants to read


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 17:30:50
content:
  I don't know. I need you to explain. I've seen Geenz and Karel argue a lot at TW. 
  I really don't understand much because English is not my mother tongue


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 19:19:32
content:
  All their Discord stuff, all the details, submission information, finer points, etc which was bilingual last year appears to only be listed in Japanese now. I think they may have updated some since. But yeah, I'm guessing they aren't seeing much point now?


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 20:13:57
content:
  Surprised ncr is not rallying tbh given that eth is up so much. I guess people people are a little scared now that the buybacks stopped


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 20:20:44
content:
  They're talking about NCR the Neos currency. Which can be bought and sold.

  Neos the product is free.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 20:46:29
content:
  Do you think about nothing in English for NF4? You can check English part from entry world and twitter promotion, and can support from neos festa discord. I know homepage doesn't support English, but I sadly to think only this thing.


type: message
date: 2022-07-18 23:17:38
edit_date: 2022-07-19 01:23:04
content:
  It's enough if you don't have the feelings you had before now. Thank you for confirmation. Enjoy Neos Festa.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 05:28:23
edit_date: 2022-07-19 05:54:18
content:
  I know this is late and Im too tired to read everyones posts just yet but ffs contact karel, he's in the past refunded some mints I think? because you paying 14 per ncr just makes me want to push objects into my eyes like it makes me want to jump out the closest window


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 05:39:30
content:
  I've never been able to talk to Froox. And anytime I've seen anyone ping him they've had 22 furries jump down their throat telling them he's too busy. 

  It actually used to be the opposite, with Karel talking to the community and Froox on the ivory tower. Only thing that's changed has been Karel's supposed disappearance


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 05:40:37
content:
  for what it's worth, I've atleast been told that he's still doing things behind the scenes, just cant talk about it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 05:49:18
edit_date: 2022-07-19 07:01:22
content:
  turning new users away is a mercy unto them honestly. This platform sought to openly scam its users and have the childish notion that everyone would be as OK with it. Why do they deserve new users to drag through the mud? This user has every right to rail against the sheer utter unreconcilable stupidity that the team has wrought upon us for petty reasons.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 07:31:38
content:
  We have our rough areas, which we aim to work on once the issues currently being discussed are worked on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 07:32:58
content:
  Until then the new user experience is rough yes. Certainly not to the point where I would specifically turn them away from the platform but each to their own.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:18:19
content:
  Hey, so let's go over that again.

  I need a name and a report in a moderation ticket. That's what I need. Otherwise I can't do anything. The user could just open a ticket with two words and i'd be able to do more. Its so there's a paper trail which proves I'm not doing anything as an isolated rookie. Such cases (Harassment) are evaluated by multiple moderation members to ensure there's no favoritism.

  If this is disagreeable with you, you can take it up with the moderation leads or Veer. Who will tell you the same. 

  Thanks for your repeated redirection to this area.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:20:06
content:
  As for citations, I'm waiting on a whole whost of Wiki configuration changes and updates on our wiki's host. This host is controlled by Karel and I don't have access. To be clear I'm not blaming him. He's busy doing other items, but I'm unable to continue the advancements I need to that platform without a few things from Karel. We've talked about it before but it kinda stopped at the time it was needed the most. Hence I'm not blaming Karel its just another symptom of the current issue that's happening.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:23:48
content:
  I actually can't, I've had multiple warnings from the moderation team that I need to consult them before I do things as they own the policies there. 

  Naturally I accept this because having worked at larger companies where this(defering to moderation teams) is the standard policy. I'm applying it here too.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:25:02
content:
  Interesting, we do. because I looked into it and that's what I discovered. I appreciate your information in this case. Perhaps I'll double check later. Last I checked its something to do with our localization setup


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:27:15
content:
  I'm sorry you think that. I'll take that feedback into consideration as I continue to improve the wiki. Thanks!


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:29:52
content:
  I didn't reprimand them, I just encouraged them to move on. There are other mods here though. Lots and lots.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:39:58
content:
  You can read about our lack of ability to do wiki citations here: https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/735381514988159016/844103450966360064

  Along with Epsilion and I's efforts to get them resolved via Karel. Thanks!


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:48:17
content:
  I asked for links so I could be direct with Karel. Epsilion was dirivng a lot of the pages he needed citations for at the time. Its a community project after all.

  Thanks!


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:49:55
content:
  No, I wanted to ensure we had the correct pages that had previously been asked to ensure that we didn't end up with two different versions of a plugin or incompatible plugins and to ensure I was aligned with a community members needs.

  Basically due diligence.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:50:57
content:
  He asked for my help to see if I could push them through or if I had access to install them. We both asked.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 11:55:24
content:
  You are constantly blaming on probably prime, not doing anything good in documenting.

  While ProbablePrime is the one who probably documented the most out of Neos. And helped other and me countless times with his works.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 12:17:59
content:
  - Everyone can claim to be want they want to be on the internet.
  -If you think that a complete different team and devs should continue to work on it, I got bad news for you.
  -> It would be a cold start as if that team would just start to build a vr platform, but with 5, maybe 10% of the content + they need to learn the code for a year or more without anyone guiding them.

  It would be easier to start from scratch.
  And they would need to be multiple times the size of the current team to make maybe the same progress.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 14:09:24
content:
  for me it's more along the lines of "Im willing to take my chances" in the face of everything, if it has to come to that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 14:11:02
edit_date: 2022-07-19 22:57:02
content:
  There's still a part of me that hopes things can be cleaned up and the involved parties can be respected, but I don't think the egos will allow that


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 14:14:20
edit_date: 2022-07-19 22:57:23
content:
  and the last bit of optimism I had kind of had has been bled out of me every time I read something Geenz posts on social media, with the last time where I read his pay expectations makes me see the current team as a spineless joke. So I've basically flipped from "maybe there's a way things can work out" to "I just want to see how the lawsuit pans out, fuck everything else"


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 14:20:47
content:
  This is all rather confusing. I've been watching videos on how to do things, but I keep seeing good and bad things going on. Is everything okay?


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 14:24:51
content:
  I just got started, and people seemed inviting and showed things still happening. If Neos is in trouble, then why do events and people still be there?


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 14:47:14
content:
  If community is so passionate with platform, then maybe they can be new dev team? Isn't there an owner to Neos who could keep the project going?


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 15:50:12
content:
  If you have feedback for the moderation team you can provide it via tickets or the our anonymous feedback form. Thank you


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 16:27:37
edit_date: 2022-07-19 16:28:36
content:
  dude, just own up to your shit. you took orc's trolling and megaphoned it for a month like it had legitimacy. insisting that the process should be what? following every single he said she said rumor that crosses a staff member? you insisted you didn't want to talk to a moderator, spoke only in generalities, and continued to engage anyone who spoke to you about it in as abrasive and evasive a manor as possible. you had no skin in the game, you were just parroting a false accusation.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:14:03
edit_date: 2022-07-19 23:06:05
content:
  You should believe people when they report harassment. You should understand the dynamics may prevent them from coming forward themselves and take third party reports with specificity into account (my main point if disagreement with the current process). But you should not be acting on three degrees removed reports from people who refuse to substantiate or even tacitly engage with the moderation process. That is how you get your moderation team paralyzed chasing false leads, duplicate reports and trolls. I am not implying you knew all along. You can take that up with Orc, but you have publicly gone to bat for this. You used this as an argument, and you still are trying to. Rather than open a ticket, or speak to a moderator you paraded this. And I will be very critical of that. 

  You got duped, and went to bat for it. You harangued Prime for not acting outside his role on a vague accusation of harassment. Then when he felt badgered enough by you he stepped up outside his role, pushed for an investigation, and got to see all the stress was for a lie.

  And you still were an asshole to him. Immediately tried to redirect. You won't own up to your own bullshit. If you weren't so committed to just shitting over everyone all of the time I might even agree with you. I /have/ agreed with you before. But you used someone's harassment as a fucking rhetorical point, refusing to engage with it outside that utility. What the fuck zig?


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:39:36
content:
  Did I make a mistake by not reading any previous messages? It sounds like this all has been going on for a long time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:39:41
edit_date: 2022-07-19 18:14:10
content:
  Yeah? You could get yourself into a position to do something, but you won't. You'd prefer to yell at people. Thank you for your bravery and sacrifice. The internet needs more of your stunning feats of keyboard war.

  I want to believe you about your motives. You are smart, we seem socio-politically aligned from like, even just little ancillary behaviors. I don't think this is purely cynical and I apologize for that remark about you using this situation rhetoricaly.

  But you are such an asshole and I can not understand it. You get me mad at you and I just wish you'd drop the affect and engage in good faith. >.> And I figure this same exchange will happen again down the line. And I still won't understand it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:43:59
content:
  It's very complicated. I wish I had a more broken down answer, since I know you are still figuring things out, but for the most part, for the past 8 months, this has been the norm in this channel, but not so much in Neos itself. That's the most basic explanation I can give.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:46:24
edit_date: 2022-07-19 17:48:23
content:
  IMO this is just not a great place to be introduced to the community. It's practically unmoderated. The discord is more representative of what you'll see in the game, this place is serving as a bit of a tension point between splintering factions of the community due to what I will characterize as a labor dispute. The context of that can be had through the announcements channel on discord.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:51:02
content:
  oh okay. I guess other people who are starting out find out this channel first, then go to the other one? Why does the website point to here and not both channels?


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:52:31
content:
  Sorry I have so many questions. There is a lot of things going on to figure out, and now I am confused on who is helping new people and who aren't


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 17:58:07
edit_date: 2022-07-19 18:00:14
content:
  The Official Discord is the right place to easily find help, aswell as our Mentor team. 
  The Discord link is on the website, just as a "Connect with us" and just the Symbol on the bottom instead on the top.
  The whole thing that is going on is quite a long story. 
  To be short. 
  The Dev team and the Creator Dev of neos are on Strike against the other Shareholder. 
  Its 50 % / 50 % splitted against Frooxius 
  (Creator) and Karel (NCR part).

  But yeah. you will find a lot of help and Information in the main Discord.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:05:47
edit_date: 2022-07-19 23:09:53
content:
  As for the lower reported numbers of users, as much as I don't like using this as an example, but I think you can see why it hasn't been easy for new people to find helpful information, when this channel is the more pushed direction (due to the shortcut at the top of the website as its own dedicated button).
  The discord is more vetted towards keeping things civil and people there have a genuine desire to help new people, but the link isn't as obvious.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:31:00
content:
  not strictly speaking, but I know it isn't helping either. If new users' first experience to Neos, to find things out, is here, which has been happening more often recently, finding reliable information and troubleshooting assistance amongst the consistent arguing isn't going to leave a great impression


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:34:19
content:
  and god forbid we have another one of those rampant bots again, considering the moderation time here


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:36:18
content:
  It's just, I don't think I've ever met anyone else who knew you who didn't... Experience this sort of thing


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:37:29
content:
  Neos's decline isn't one sole reason. For a decline to happen, you need users to leave the platform and none to come in. Of course, it's easier if you have less people coming in to then have a decline. Any avenue where a potential new user can join and learn about things being affected in a negative way will further decrease the chances of possibly staying on principal alone.
  Neos isn't for everyone, but even the best platform can be ideal and yet have means to discourage new users, and thus have little to none.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:40:11
content:
  Neos is having a hard time finding new people to play? I check site again, and they seem to make a lot of money from patreon. Why no one on patreon play Neos?


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:48:29
content:
  So all patreon players are in Neos, but are in private rooms? But why then only 400 people on? patreon has 1500 people. Not enough rooms?


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 18:55:07
content:
  Bear in mind, you do not need to be on the Patreon in order to join or play Neos.
  Also, Neos can have as many rooms as needed, because it's peer to peer, or basically it lets you connect to another user directly instead of a server for the world/room.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 19:10:26
content:
  it's also worth pointing out that not everyone in Neos is in VR. Most are, but sometimes people need a break or something that is easier to do in desktop mode


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 20:10:15
content:
  Remember NCR was the top gainer consistently in the metaverse category. If metaverse takes off again, we could be in for a serious pump 🚀


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 20:10:29
content:
  Way less NCR in circulation compared to last time, since so much has been bought in the buyback programme


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 20:57:03
content:
  Yes, I have around 3000 hours in Neos, over 2000 hours of it making content for the platform since 2019.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 21:37:04
edit_date: 2022-07-19 21:39:05
content:
  Because the game is very incomplete. It's very much in an alpha stage right now and needs a lot more work. Without anyone working on it, it's stuck in that early development stage and isn't an attractive platform to play on or develop on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-19 22:37:26
edit_date: 2022-07-19 23:18:22
content:
  The CEO took care of the CTO, the main programmer, for years. He housed him, shopped for him, cooked for him, took care of him in many ways. He took care of all the business stuff like bills and taxes, trying to find funding for Neos, and making connection in the industry. The CEO took on all this responsibility mainly so the CTO could focus on programming.

  The moment Neos found financial success the CTO stabbed the CEO in the back. They no longer needed him. They tried to get him kicked out of the company.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 01:13:57
content:
  I haven't been around or paying attention to every thing going on until now, still have alot of reading


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 01:17:29
edit_date: 2022-07-20 01:26:05
content:
  I obviously inspired some shit going on without really knowing, when I thought I made it clear that I was fucking around, I'm sorry. Like when I was telling a ridiculously stupid story that amounted to "within my first 5 minutes in Neos I got harassed!", I thought it was obviously stupid. I just saw the old "submit a support ticket" message and just had a laugh and then said I was joking but it seemed to get lost in the chat.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 01:21:46
content:
  I never got approached by anyone about any investigation. So I didn't know I had even caused a problem.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 01:22:19
content:
  Sorry to everyone, especially anyone defending me. I'll be alittle less unhinged in the future here.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 01:32:58
content:
  I'm sorry you went to bat for me. I haven't been checking the chat as often or I would have seen what was going on. Sorry to Prime too. I'll not troll as much


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 02:35:02
edit_date: 2022-07-20 03:02:07
content:
  I didn't lie, But thanks for your opinion. 

  Also thank you Orc for the updated messages on this I'll pass them along.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 02:38:04
edit_date: 2022-07-20 02:38:13
content:
  if it means anything in recompense, there was a time when it was insinuated that a specific team member did something sexual. I speculated too abit but when I was shown my someone that it was a lie, I atleast told literally everyone in neos I knew that it wasn't true


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 02:38:41
edit_date: 2022-07-20 03:02:31
content:
  Just because we didn't speak to Orc, doesn't mean there wasn't an investigation. So no, I didn't lie.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 11:36:07
content:
  https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/07/19/dubai-unveils-metaverse-strategy-aims-to-attract-over-1000-firms/


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 16:33:14
content:
  Likely by karel yesterday, can't be sure as andrea doesn't show last active time. Neither seem to really 'moderate' the chat though, just randomly kick/ban people with no explanation or attempting to warn people


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 17:37:18
content:
  Is it normal community management practice for people to have to sleuth out if/why someone was banned?


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 17:48:12
content:
  I mean, people get banned from Neos without anyone knowing why and the moderators refusing to elaborate why, so... I guess yes?


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 17:53:24
content:
  I don't need to know the specific why of a ban, personally. I am fine with it just being communicated to the person who receives the ban. But I don't think it should be so much guessing work to figure out if action was taken.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 18:05:58
content:
  Deleting messages from a channel, though, isn't exactly something that works though. If you delete your messages, the admin of a super group has access to all of the deleted messages via the mod panel.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 18:08:25
content:
  So if the dev team didn't want the admin of this chat to see what they said they shouldn't have posted here at all


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 18:17:24
edit_date: 2022-07-20 18:18:10
content:
  It mostly just looks bad. But I don't really have much faith in the moderation of this channel. *shrug*


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 18:21:51
edit_date: 2022-07-20 18:27:33
content:
  The “team” killed the discord by making it a toxic environment for non-furries. Now we have telegram as a compromise


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 19:16:58
edit_date: 2022-07-20 22:55:23
content:
  The discord is exhausting to be around, getting a bunch of thoughtless attacks for having an opinion other than the norm.

  Maybe that would be tolerable if not for the constant threat of getting banned there.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 19:18:53
content:
  but really, what are we moaning about, I don't see a stark need for moderation aside from when we had a user go coin shill on us


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 19:21:16
content:
  concerning the discord, there was a "containment" channel already with the NCR section. But that wasnt enough. Asshole furries had to come into that channel LOOKING for fights, then its blamed on the denizens of that channel for the attacks issued against them


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 20:50:15
edit_date: 2022-07-20 22:55:48
content:
  yeah it sucks they took over neos. karel and the rest of the team were always so accommodating but they took advantage and bit the hand that fed them (for froox quite literally..).


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 20:53:53
content:
  well I like the crowd in here alot, even those I occasionally disagree with and folks atleast seem to listen to each other, even if things get abit rude


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 20:56:02
content:
  and we havent needed moderation.. why do we? so we can have some arbitrary rules aboit being polite just because thats the norm or something. we all get along


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 20:58:02
edit_date: 2022-07-20 22:56:54
content:
  the devs commented preciously about how there was the "wrong kinds of people" and they "dont want to have anything to do with that crowd" sounding like a couple of church ladies, talking about their own customers


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 20:59:43
content:
  yep, and maybe I could tolerate that if not for the way they tried to revise history over the whole ordeal


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:00:24
content:
  like, these being the people they were selling NCR to sincr 2018, and suddenly when Geenz doesnt get what he wants everyone is a cryptobro


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:01:51
content:
  and I would like to have respect for Frooxbut kinda hard to do that when he's so spineless he'd throw us infront of the bus to just make such a literal overgrown child pretending to be a neon bird happy


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:03:45
content:
  oh geenz was pissed he didnt get 50k for 10 hours, and thats enough to grind a project to a halt in an era where we were arguably ahead in a field where competition is growing daily


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:05:13
edit_date: 2022-07-20 22:58:12
content:
  rather than focus on the work, it was more important that the friends ingraciating themselves with Froox be extra comfy and that (apparently? for what reason?) requires sacrificing their own funders


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:07:30
edit_date: 2022-07-20 22:58:56
content:
  Neos is hoping they can spread enough disinformation that some tuber or eceleb will push their revised bullshit for them. You see the lil creeps popping up in comment sections trying to tell people what to think


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:08:10
content:
  A month or two to sort things out could be expected, but now it seems like a solid case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face". I guess they're getting enough in from personal Patreons now to not care what happened to anyone else on the platform.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:10:11
edit_date: 2022-07-20 23:01:01
content:
  personal comfort has been priority 1 and there's no true loyalty to the users. I wish the japanese users just had control of the platform since they seem to bw the ones actually doing events and promoting it among each other, but even they seem like an afterthought taken for granted


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:13:08
content:
  Like.. i feel that if Karel wasnt involved the whole project wouldve just been called Furcadia VR or something years ago


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:14:25
content:
  If Karel wasn't involved it would basically be a place for Froox and his friends to hang out. nobody else would know about it...


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:14:53
content:
  many of them were NCR customers too. when froox issued his announcement (which Im surprised none of his cohorts thoight to tell him to reco sider) it was japanese users confused on why NCR went like -70%in a single day


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:15:37
content:
  considering they spent 0 on marketing, Karel did a good job so far in marketing Neos and supporting its organic growth. i dont know how the team can turn their backs on that


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:17:46
content:
  it took like a week and they were ready to rip this man's spleen out while not being able to easily articulate "why"


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:18:26
edit_date: 2022-07-20 21:21:36
content:
  watching this shit unfold in realtime made me think I was missing something but no it was just a lesson in mob mentality


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:22:33
content:
  If you count the buyback wallet, patreon and money withdrawn previously there's gotta be $5M in funding in Karel's control. That's still plenty to hire devs and revive Neos


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:25:10
content:
  Ideally they just.. establish some professional barriers like adults do and start caring about the future


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:32:52
content:
  There's been plenty of successful virtual currencies that don't use the blockchain. NCR tokens were a mistake.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:35:02
edit_date: 2022-07-21 01:49:54
content:
  Given all the speculation with crypto, it seems it would have been impossible to use as a stable market currency. I raised this repeatedly well before the explosion and it was just dismissed by the team (because at the time they were all getting NCR and CDFT, and thus benefitting from it).


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:38:13
content:
  Now that the environmental and power concerns have hit the spotlight, it's also just not a good look to have on you either way. All of that together made it a losing gamble, regardless of intentions.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:39:54
content:
  It was never marketed as something to be stable. People always joked or thought about how it could eventually be worth more... and that was thr whole point of the rising mint prince.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:41:02
content:
  If you want something stable just hold onto your local currency or something. There's nothing wrong with letting the market decide the valur of a currency and not trying to pretend youre an economist and control or peg it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:42:31
content:
  I think its ridiculous to call your platform a metaverse and then try to funnel all commerce through your own payment scheme


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:43:26
content:
  and even if you could it would've just killed the whole funding scheme, which however you want to frame it, you atleast have to admit was wildly successful.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:45:07
edit_date: 2022-07-20 21:54:01
content:
  good luck getting people to fund Neos by selling them lindenbucks. I wish we could get over this college sophomore softbrain idea that speculation is a dirty word.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:46:17
content:
  I mean, that simply won't work when people want to sell things. They want to know how much they're selling it for. When it's value can drastically change day to day or week to week then.. well, people just won't bother.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:49:57
edit_date: 2022-07-20 21:50:23
content:
  they'll know the value of it, and they'll be happy to benefit from the changes day to day too, when it favors them. Maybe consider it's unfair to judge its price behavior now to how it would be when actual good and activities are payable in it. Because even Lindens have a fluctuating value, or even the Yen does if you'd look at a price chart.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:50:41
content:
  Deflationary currency was a mistake from the get-go. It is trivially evident that it disincentivizes spending, and on top of that encouraging speculation just makes it unattractive for transactional use at all.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:51:12
content:
  Any attempt to compare the MASSIVE variations in crypto price to fiat currencies in most 1st world currencies is so far from being accurate that it's basically a lie.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:53:05
content:
  Not to mention the massively varying (and often incredibly expensive) transaction costs of many crypto.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:53:10
content:
  Or rather... Inflationary currencies benefit those who have the means or knowledge to park their currencies in deflationary assets or invest it and grow their wealth.  Where your regular jackoff doesn't and saving gets him less and less the more he saves.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:55:50
content:
  Well I think it's that people have to sort of accept the eb and flow of these things when dealing with an emerging form of transacting value. The criticism of things like price fluctuation basically ammount to "crypto isn't perfect yet so it shouldn't exist"


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:58:09
content:
  *shrug* I just have a lot of family and extended family that do that sort of thing. It's not that crypto isn't viable, it's what it's become and what it represents that makes it unpalatable to governments and the market itself


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 21:58:36
content:
  I mean I can agree, but at the same time we just ignore the benefits when they are right infront of us. Like here's a tech that lets someone transfer a billion dollars in under an hour for a fee of like $10... and that's not worth anything?


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:00:38
content:
  but by the time you think you know the feel of the market it'll be turning around without you: "Goldman Trader: The Top Client Question This Week Was 'Why Did The Market Not Go Down In The Face Of Incredibly Worsening Data' "


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:02:43
content:
  I mean, in the end I don't see the point, as NCR was sold, and it's entirely optional. If they want to have nothing to do with it they can even just download the Steam client


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:03:23
content:
  so what's really the matter? That we all get to insert out own personal beliefs and pretend it's a big problem


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:05:02
content:
  because most of the talk about this seems to be filtered through socialist or capitalist rhetoric, or ideas about inflationary assets being good, or "digital scarcity" being a real thing (its not)


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:06:12
content:
  I mean I would've thought so too but no they care more about being reactionaries and having things to complain about


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:06:17
content:
  People are going to have something to say because Karel wants it to be part of an integrated marketplace, which implies it's own economy, which is.... Essentially LL's L currency but with crypto


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:06:34
content:
  but I don't really think NCR or any software should be trying to channel some sort of political belief


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:07:35
content:
  They also are usually anti currency because currency is supposed to naturally create hierarchical systems via the ability to amass and hoard resources


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:09:22
content:
  until then I think being able to bank yourself is a step in the right direction if the environmental concerns are addressed


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:09:31
content:
  Philosophists usually talk in perfect scenarios when they do academics that don't involve real world examples


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:14:29
content:
  Like, there's only so deep I can go with all these unsolid ideas about trade, value etc. at a point it gets nowhere


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:15:57
content:
  Money does create hierarchies, though the utility for trade can justify that. Though hedging against the tendency for accumulation is important if you are worried about economic justice.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:16:33
content:
  I mostly just feel if someone is a communist, socialist, ancap, whatever, I don't want to try to change their opinion, I'd rather just get along with them... and I'd appreciate it if they don't feel the need to insert their belief into all aspects of everyone's life.. like Neos in that it's completely optional


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:19:11
content:
  it's an abstraction of resources, closer to information than a physical good. the loss of context in that abstraction is sort of an issue IMO.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:20:27
content:
  They also won't like private property, and distinguish private and personal property from each other.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:31:34
content:
  i agree, but i also think that there are tendencies in information systems that are unique to such systems. we take the utility with the understanding of the nature of abstraction. i just think that means we need to address the loss of information when institutions start to optimize for that singular metric. it is a limited model, and as its interactions exceed its modeling capacity, we need to create a model that better represents the context of the decisions being made.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:35:14
content:
  i don't think it's controversial to say the profit motive as an institutional driving force creates remarkably myopic institutions.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:42:00
content:
  Anarchism works on a system where a hierarchy has to justify itself, or be systematically replaced with organizations that use horizontal power structures in the event that hierarchies cannot justify themselves.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:47:53
content:
  I didn't learn about anyone but Stirner via his hanging around the Young Hegelians until i took up an independent study of anarchist thought tbh.


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:50:16
content:
  You just made it sound like the material wasn't very substantial since you could cram it all at the end


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 22:50:53
content:
  Then... Why is your reading comprehension so poor? Why did you think I was espousing anarchist views rather than explaining them?


type: message
date: 2022-07-20 23:21:01
edit_date: 2022-07-20 23:21:16
content:
  I am sick-brain right now and typing on a vr keyboard. I am going to resist my urge to delve into the nuances of anarchist thought in an unrelated telegram channel and instead go watch Legally Blonde.


type: message
date: 2022-07-21 05:05:53
content:
  I mean, this whole situation could get a lot worse, I just hope things get going in the public space at least this year...


type: message
date: 2022-07-21 08:39:41
content:
  Tbh the buybacks are actually pretty smart. Take ncr out of circulation at a cheap price.. there’s not much left in terms of sell pressure now


type: message
date: 2022-07-21 18:15:26
content:
  oof. Debated on getting a unit installed to help with efficiency, since there's an old cement block for where some stairs used to be just outside my room's window. However, then the tubing would be a respectable distance still away so... eh.


type: message
date: 2022-07-21 18:39:19
content:
  only double the cost of my fursuit. Honestly, that isn't a bad quote and is a more than powerful enough amount of cooling and heating. Double points if heatpump options are available down the road


type: message
date: 2022-07-21 20:09:47
content:
  they wouldn't help, besides I'd rather hold my NCR to zero than give someone like that the time of day


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 06:23:50
content:
  I'd also go for anything right to make the price go higher in a stable way without being another bubble


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 10:44:11
edit_date: 2022-07-22 11:32:21
content:
  This is an opportunity to change the trend for NCR.. there’s so little in circulation now and we had a long redistribution phase


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 21:36:17
content:
  They didn't even care until crypto became a quasi-political word for bored furs to obsess over in lieu of having actual issues to give a shit about.


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 21:37:31
content:
  their response is no we're going to make it a problem, cause strife, then point to our own pile of shit we caused and say "look? this is why we need to scam and take away the rights of the other users"


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 21:45:25
edit_date: 2022-07-22 23:01:11
content:
  though here he's trying to color it like Karel slipped it in like a rider on a piece of US legislation to Froox


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 21:47:53
content:
  Its history was that it was a listed patreon perk, like the non-existent NFTs and the priority issue voting system. No clue why people keep wanting to argue it had more impact than that as far as keeping the lights on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 21:52:59
edit_date: 2022-07-23 02:38:04
content:
  Trivially. It was a single patreon perk, isolating its impact is not possible. we might as well say storage space saved Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 21:54:00
content:
  I don't think trying to isolate its impact is really something that can be done either, nor do I think it's even fair


type: message
date: 2022-07-22 21:54:46
content:
  You can easily get a number of voices saying "I didn't care about it I only did patreon for storage" but that doesn't represent everyone and their interests or thoughts/desires, etc


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 05:28:50
content:
  it will likely stay vaguely 'stable' around 0.30 - 0.40 for a while assuming buybacks continue. but I wouldn't expect any major changes unless an announcement is posted


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 05:31:42
content:
  It might, but ncr is intended as a 'utility' token so it is better for the token to hold a consistent price or very gradually grow.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 06:45:30
edit_date: 2022-07-23 06:54:22
content:
  If I'm not mistaken, aren't the buybacks taking higher priority over people who have been trying to buy NCR via minting methods or just in general?


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 06:46:13
edit_date: 2022-07-23 06:54:25
content:
  Not sure why not just let the prices fall, and people who do genuinely support the project buy at the lower prices and when things recover, let the increased value naturally done via progress be the reward


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 06:56:05
edit_date: 2022-07-23 06:56:36
content:
  That's a good thing for a utility token to have stable price. Sadly that doesn't seem possible with NCR


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 07:01:32
edit_date: 2022-07-23 07:20:06
content:
  but I love buying storage space for friends. That's the only reason I even have partial interest in buying more NCR


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 07:12:09
edit_date: 2022-07-23 07:20:21
content:
  a usable in-game currency needs carefully chosen sinks and sources that keep the circulation to accommodate the demand. It doesn't have to be stable to any fiat, it just needs to be stable in itself mostly


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 08:46:05
content:
  Or that if something goes from $.20 to $10 that it shouldn't retrace, as if it's a flaw in the system that people would take profits on that kind of move


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 08:48:30
content:
  Or I got called a liar for pointing out what tatters the yen is currently in, or other volatility like in stocks, where netflix is down to a third of its value


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 08:50:00
content:
  Or how about a commodity? Does that have "utility"? Like the futures price of oil that went NEGATIVE, and is now almost $100 a barrel?


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 08:51:17
content:
  Apparently stuff like this can't happen and cryptos are these magical things that are volatile because... just because they are.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 09:00:24
content:
  Ideally we'd get transparency and a no meddling approach to NCR's price, and let it be its own thing while a market gets built and other services it can pay for emerges


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 09:03:50
content:
  I don't want another shitty linden system. I want something I can take out of the game and swap, or that I can gamble with without worrying about some ToS breathing down my neck about what I can or can't do... and don't trust the hands-on approach of managing a currency by this company because ideally a metaverse platform should be able to outlive the company that made it imo


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 09:08:23
content:
  and the merits of NCR don't have anything to do with the patreon imo, that's just some weird hostile rationalization to try to convince people that it's OK for certain people to be scammed by abstracting what YOU think their money was supposed to go to or what "kinds of people" were buying when, and I'm kind of disappointed to see certain people take to arguing that


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 09:09:34
content:
  I've noticed certain people try to act like the rational sort, but when chips are down they always take a certain side 100% of the time and don't really seem interested in fairness.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:09:56
edit_date: 2022-07-23 18:10:11
content:
  Late to this conversation, but just wanted to say that nature IS hierarchy. Anarchism, communism, etc. will never work because they're unnatural systems and have no future without ultimately descending to repression and authoritarianism, as has been proven time and again.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:14:59
content:
  You have received your NCR, I am still waiting on half my patreon perks. No one guaranteed you profit. No one even guaranteed you the existence of NCR. But you have it. What about that is unfair?

  As you said, the price of commodities fluctuates all the time. I don't feel like figuratively or literally building my stuff on the back of fossil fuels. Nor do I have any interest in naive crypto-libertarian posturing about the purity of an unregulated currency.

  If NCR had a DAO, or other method of governance that could actually address the challenges of managing a complex open system outside the company it would have a good faith argument for long term utility. As it stands, the majority of the token is controlled by one entity, and they are literally acting as the NCR federal reserve. NCR cannot 'outlive the company that made it'.

  NCR does nothing and will continue to do nothing. It has no inherent value, produces nothing and isn't even decentralized. It doesn't serve your vision, it doesn't serve my vision, it doesn't serve the striking team's vision. So what about it is worth defending?


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:17:47
edit_date: 2022-07-24 00:41:29
content:
  Jordan Peterson over here 🙄 "Network theory is unnatural; can't you see all networks are just trees from the view of the most naturally important node?"


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:21:12
edit_date: 2022-07-24 00:42:01
content:
  If you're going to take such a bad faith approach to what I said, at least try to be more intelligent about it


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:23:41
content:
  Hierarchy requires interpretation. You have to make assumptions about the purpose of the system you are analyzing. Those assumptions are not 'natural', though they may be reasonable. Appealing to the 'naturalness' of hierarchy is fallacious anyway, so I don't take the argument seriously.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:31:29
content:
  I am making a simple point: hierarchical relationships are natural. Not that all nature is hierarchical or only organizational principle. 

  You're welcome to try and refute that without meaningless word salad.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:31:35
edit_date: 2022-07-23 18:31:36
content:
  I did answer the question. To me, hierarchy is hermeneutical, not innate. It exists when we read it into nature, it is not inherent in nature. We can create a hierarchy of a tide pool ecosystem that would vastly differ from the wider ocean. It would be just as valid to imagine, say, the food chain as a network.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:34:16
content:
  We describe patterns in many ways, seeing any single model as 'naturally correct' is unscientific at the very least.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:38:02
edit_date: 2022-07-23 18:38:14
content:
  No, I'm saying exactly what i said. All networks look like trees from a single node. I think it's silly to extrapolate that to the 'naturalness' of trees.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:47:13
content:
  No it's not. 

  >Team crashes utility of NCR
  >Team points to non-utility of NCR to justify crashing it and removing it from Neos 

  That's basically the argument. It's stupid.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:48:12
content:
  Yes, though our observations naturally will come from assumptions of purpose. We cannot describe complex systems with perfect fidelity, we accept the limitations of our models and look for more accuracy when we find anomalies in their predictions. What we do not do is impose the model onto the data, that /is/ reality denial. Hierarchy is a convenient and understandable descriptor of a complex system which is useful but inaccurate. However, when it becomes a metanarrative to justify sociological systems, it's no longer doing its descriptive work :P


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:54:55
content:
  I dropped mine when the additional perks that came with the headless access became irrelevant. The NCR I have pays for storage, my headless-client hasn't been updated yet, so no need to renew any access rights or for entry for the support channels... so kind of no need for it in my case


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 18:57:46
content:
  likewise here. Upon discovering a critical exploit to a competing platform, I left it entirely and funded Neos immediately to gain access to the headless client, since server operations are my jam. Even during my time having issues with the platform, I continued my support anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 19:04:00
content:
  I just use it for storage space. I tried to buy extra swag VR gear, but that failed due to some misunderstandings. Going to have 10GB for another 10 years, and I still have extra left a good chunk of NCR left over.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 19:10:15
content:
  Hey, you're the one telling me to correct my view of the scientific method, which was 'use a model, note anomalies, correct the model'. Unless of course you are merely being pedantic about the description.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 19:11:35
content:
  What you need to correct is the fidelity of your observations and potential imposition of systematic narratives onto social models


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 19:11:50
content:
  naw. The value of NCR doesn't really impact me, as it is neither a loss nor a gain. If it goes up, that's cool. If it doesn't, that's fine, too. In all cases and outcomes, the only one that I could even deem a loss would be the platform's shutdown, but I have backup plans in situation. So I'll just hold indefinitely and watch the show.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 19:20:47
edit_date: 2022-07-23 19:23:18
content:
  None of what you said has anything to do with that NCR was sold to bystandards and how those bystandards are innocent. You don't care about NCR? Because your pure and enlightened political beliefs are just so above that kind of shit? Fine, but that has little to do with those who do and should be allowes to engage with it without being under constant threat. That's something that's guaranteed by atleast half of the company.

  That's the thing that's good, is that in Neos we were promised not profits (I resent you thinking I want them guaranteed to me), but that you can have your principles and I can have mine, and we don't have to trip over each other. You can build your stuff for free or in exchange for the (petro)dollar or my homegrown tomatoes or whatever. But underlying systems allowing unregulated exchange (and one that is entirely side-steppable) is something I'll just briefly say is needed to have a metaverse for all, which is what I saw being built in Neos. If anything it feels like you, devs and discord are more interested in making it your own little political playground than Karel ever was.

  And do you honestly believe we'd be ALLOWED to have a DAO? Can you IMAGINE the fuss certain members of the community would have? And you think thr team wouldn't just outright reject any notion of the token having any sort of governance or additional utility? No they're not interested in intelligently designing a system that's made to last or is fair or autonomous or even has purpose... They have for many months now been subtly and unsubtly trying to undermine it in the name of whatever their fancy political beliefs are and whatever is the popular rhetoric among the furry community. Any discussion about it has been slammed shut or attacked thoughtlessly.

  So don't pretend like anyone arguing for NCR's existance is being the unreasonable one. Maybe it doesn't line up with your beliefs about inflation good for the little man (its not) but why do you get to shrug off the thousands who do believe in it and aren't here to hear you preach (in English) all of your contrived reasons that they should get scammed and swept under the rug? I'd have been pleased to hear you atleast once take their side.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 19:26:40
edit_date: 2022-07-23 19:36:09
content:
  I appreciate the thought that went into this post, Orc... but it appears that you haven't considered the hermeneutics of the situation


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 19:40:10
edit_date: 2022-07-24 01:24:03
content:
  hopefully there's some recourse for funders when we find out what is actually going on behind the veil. What's craziest is no one thought to tell Froox "maybe you shouldn't say that right now" but it appears everyone was so into sniffing each other's farts and being praised by a community of teenagers living at home that they never thought about acting like a company


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 20:55:14
content:
  There is a lot of they in there, but I am the one making the argument. There is also, still, not a lot of reasons to support NCR in there.

  I agree that we need a decentralized payment solution. I am not being facetious when I argue for alternative solutions, like an uncapped token with algorithmically determined supply or a DAO governed supply. Because I think those might actually work as long as we don't explode onto the wider speculative assets scene again.

  But I don't see NCR as a capable or even adequate solution as it stands, and I do not understand the idea that we should die on some hill for it. I don't really get why that's 'fair'.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 21:11:34
content:
  As a hobby project, it's uninteresting, as a stand alone product, it's uncompetitive. What is the value being defended?


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 22:18:26
content:
  That's the thing isn't it? We aren't allowed to have genuine discussions on improving the token with the team or on the discord. The team isn't just ignorant of any developments in the field, but incentivized to snub them. So goodluck getting them to spend any brainpower or affection toward the project. And part of the community is ideologically opposed to the field outright regardless of whatever you'd propose.

  Unfortunately it's not your hobby project and the hill to die on is about the -people- involved who hold it, not about whatever metrics pique your interest. 

  And I mean, you are aware we can make changes to the chain, right? But the problem is that we can't even talk about them and you're more in favor of closing the book on everyone and rationalizing it with a shrug. You've seemingly got no problem with there being these unfair and sometimes ideological barriers up, and instead just want everyone to shut up and forget about it. You seem quite comfy with all of the holders being unjustly dragged through the mud in this feud of CEOvsCTO and all the community voices pleading for them to be discarded and scammed isn't something to blink at, apparently, because I've never really seen you take issue with it ever. You just softly argue in favor of it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-23 22:20:34
content:
  sometimes send a PM and she's always taken care of it in short order... those who clamor that we're unmoderated just never tried I guess... or mostly they just want the yordle to be punished for being coarse with them


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 01:48:30
content:
  I've been banging that documentation drum since I started playing tbh. I've considered just sitting down and writing a stub for all the components I know, but honestly I don't know them that well. I don't think what I'd end up producing would be good documentation but I guess it would at least exist.

  It would still be bad >.> I don't think crowd sourced documentation really can work for a closed source game engine.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 02:59:54
content:
  My opinion is that NCR doesn't fit well with the team. I don't think any amount of arguing is going to make that less true. I think that developing NCR as it's own product is at least a direction that would force consideration of NCR's competitiveness and lifecycle outside the only value assumption being a captive market.

  As it stands, I would not argue for NCR. I view it as at best parasitic because it's frankly a horrible experience to use as someone even just casually interested in using it in game. 

  And it stopped being fun to use it. I honestly liked having a native currency. It was cute and it didn't trigger quite the same guilt complex when you randomly gifted it to people. Though I kinda feel bad about those now having experienced how hard it is to actually off ramp that value. :<

  We deserve better than what NCR is. Holders or no. It's not worth fighting for, and if it can't become something worth using on it's own then all it's ever going to be to me is a regret. The product was never developed. There was never an NCR team. The plan always seems to have been to coast by and hope NEOS' success meant other people would do the leg work to make the NCR on and off boarding experiences remotely pleasant.

  So, yeah, I'm fine with it being sunset if it is between it and NEOS. I think the holders would be better served with it instead being developed out as it's own product. Less buy backs, more funding the infrastructure required to make its use a smooth experience.

  I think that was both a real option, and even a preferable one over the constant coasting. But I don't have much faith NCR will be developed to the point of competitiveness. So I have come to terms with it being effectively sunset.

  I don't think that's unfair. I think that's unfortunate. But you are right about the crypto stigma being a factor. I just don't see enough potential in NCR to offset the cost of having to fight that stigma. And I don't really see how NCR is helped by being attached to a project that lacks any sort of enthusiasm about it.

  The scenarios thrown around tend to be to the tune of replacing the NEOS team with one that will develop out NCR as a product. I think that is asinine. As rough as NEOS is, it's a hell of a lot better than NCR on it's own. I have no idea why anyone would want to gut NEOS to save NCR as it exists now.

  But maybe you see the potential to change NCR drastically only if it's attached to NEOS. I don't understand that perspective. I welcome that explanation if you have it. To me, NCR has the same potential of becoming a good product in either the third party relationship scenario or the gut the core team scenario.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 03:40:57
content:
  For me, I'm just confused why not just use ETH directly. If it's piggy backing off its own system, why not just just use that instead? Feels like unneeded steps for quite a few things.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 03:42:24
content:
  At least High Fidelity had a reason for why it didn't use the Ethereum blockchain, despite forking it with their own system, and that boiled down to transaction speeds and wanting to have no transaction costs. The only way that could be done is with a federated system that they came up with.
  At least with that, namely speed and optimized control, make sense. I'm just confused on NCR's reasons over just the base systems it is built on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 03:55:40
content:
  The difference seems to be that to me NCR is the people who hold it.To me, the individual players involved are more important than whoever is clinging to the authority over it. This includes non-english speakers who bought it and who play Neos, which is bigger than many seem to know.

  And I think you'd like us to believe development of NCR is set in stone or so involved that it needs to be compared to Neos entire development instead of taking just atleast a crypto native developer and a non-hostile stance. You want to make it sounds like NCR isn't a work in progress as much as Neos itself is.

  And I'm not surprised your take because it's the same softly shrugging rationalizing of what is a clumsy scam that you can hardly defend it. You just go "eh its just.. its just not a good fit for the teamies, yaknow?" and hope everyone should nod and take it up the ass. Or go on about it not being "interesting" because you must have some brainworm about currencies needing to be inflationary (a goddamn weird take considering all the havoc inflation is wretching on only the lower classes).

  What's not a good fit for the team seems to be any sort of responsibility or goodwill is what it is. Nothing apparently is a good fit for them, whether it's new hires or deadlines or anything.

  If you only see two potentials for it (because youre being disingenuous and know there are MANY ways this could be handled) then no I don't think the team is entitled to just one good scam to pull on people. If that's the case then yes they don't deserve our respect and should be replaced instead of being rewarded with sweeping control which they already showed an abuse of. Especially if the reason is so weak as "we just don't want to bother". You should be reminded there is or was another founder who actually wants to do right to those users.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 03:56:41
content:
  Yeah. It really annoys me that you have to buy Ethereum just to transfer NCR. Though if they abstracted that complexity on their own exchange or something honestly I'd accept just the cool factor of having your own currency as an argument for the complexity.

  But I'd think it would be cooler to run your own chain. Like. I will accept passion project arguments XD. If something seems cool to you I think that justifies doing it. Hell, I think just wanting to try out ERC-20 smart contracts is a valid reason to do it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 04:26:15
content:
  I mean, that's kind of what happenned with HiFi. Just being a transaction system was only one part of the idea. Proof of Purchases (early NFTs in a way), information validation (18+, has valid License, validated information by X, prefers Superman over Batman), and much more was all part of it. In essence, we see that with ERC-20, but for the purpose of a platform, Neos just using it for currency sake is kind of a low ball, considering a competitor was doing more early on


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 04:26:20
content:
  I accept it's under development. It also had a huge warchest of Ethereum. It had more funding than NEOS has ever had over it's lifetime.

  I believe in NEOS. I have no idea why I should believe in NCR when its supporters don't think it can shape up to be worthwhile.

  If you never believed that NCR could stand on its own even with all that funding, then what exactly is the scam?

  NCR is a bad product. You won't defend it on its merits. Instead you argue that we should make the people who lost out betting on it whole, possibly at the cost of the company.

  Hey, maybe that should be the case. I would hate that. I want this place to exist very strongly. But just because I don't find the argument strong doesn't mean it might not have merit.

  I don't think that the team is scamming anyone. I do think that people where incredibly callus when NCR was crashing. I did call, repreditively, for more empathy. 

  I still consider everyone who bought into the vision of NEOS that sold them on NCR part of the community. But I'm not going to argue to keep NCR around when it brings us nothing on the off chance a speculation bubble reverses the bad fortune.

  IMO, the team has more right to determine the direction of the company than Karel. If that direction leads a court without skin in the game to conclude they acted unjustly then like, cool. I'm open to being wrong about them not scamming people. 

  I strongly disagree with the assertion now, but I recognize as both an NCR holder and an active collaborator that I have biases that could prevent me from seeing the argument.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 04:52:30
content:
  To be frank, if your scam argument holds water I don't see the company escaping the repercussions irrespective of who wins the power struggle. So my interest there is mostly in what I feel to be right in terms of workers rights. I do not think that they are individually morally culpable to 'scamming' anyone. But like, I'd massively prefer that people feel remediated if that argument holds water. If it doesn't, which is my current belief, then I just am sorry that they had to go through this. We should seriously consider providing some grief counseling services. I know I personally struggled through this experience and I'm sure some people ended up taking it a lot harder than I did.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 04:57:00
edit_date: 2022-07-24 04:57:36
content:
  Yeah. It's really not acceptable IMO. Got to get on that early. I do sympathisé with the situation now though. When you're this far into development with no real documentation like. They should contract a technical writer and just bite the bullet to get a good base done. I don't think it's tenable to catch up without someone working on it full-time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:02:18
content:
  I don't think LogiX is bad the same way I don't think JavaScript is bad. Like, there could be better languages, but it's a two week miracle from a brilliant hacker and it will work if I scream at it right.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:05:20
edit_date: 2022-07-24 07:13:05
content:
  I mean, I think it is? I like LogiX, but I recognize it is flawed, but I still think it's useful. I still realize it will drive people nuts by comparison.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:12:23
edit_date: 2022-07-24 05:12:47
content:
  I think you've identified real pain points in both LogiX's current iteration and our lack of documentation. You are right, nothing will get done until the power struggle gets resolved and that is frustrating.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:15:21
edit_date: 2022-07-24 05:15:56
content:
  Logix is okay. I have my house running on a visual programming setup, but the advanced stuff just makes me break out the Javascript programmable nodes. It actually is nice when I can make custom nodes, and is something I voted for in Neos at one point


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:18:23
content:
  Maybe? I dunno. You called me an idiot and really tore into my analogy. I don't think it's unreasonable to get the message you are mad/frustrated with me.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:22:07
content:
  but yeah, I'll admit Logix isn't perfect. Really had me double take when colors were their own data type and not just a Float4, and the websocket system took awhile to figure out, since at the time, the documentation for it was nonexistent. 
  It might be harder to explain logix only because it does require a different mindset. It's more about flow and less about direct action. That and a constant game of "Where is this function and what is it called?" everytime I'm working on something. Being able to type stuff out has the perk that you can just go straight to what you want, but visual stuff requires a toolbox, and I'm not quite as versed with the current organization.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:35:03
content:
  anyway, speaking of finding stuff, once I find my battery banks, I'll be popping in for awhile and continue tinkering with stuff. Or relaxing, Still on the fence with that


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:54:28
content:
  The extra bits are not worthless. I wanted to make a flattering comparison with an early web pioneer while still levying a criticism. I feel that is an apt comparison. Early JS needed a lot of work. This is early LogiX. It needs a lot of work.

   I respect froox and what he has done. I do not understand your insistence not to criticize respectfully, or celebrate what I do like about people. Neat hacks are cool.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:58:14
content:
  You are telling me what I meant? Does your interpretation also explain why I called them both two week miracles from brilliant hackers? Are you insisting I think ES6+ only took 2 weeks?


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 05:59:48
content:
  Zig. I know what I mean, and I am very up front about it when there is a communication issue. Consider that I am telling you the truth about my own intents.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 07:24:42
edit_date: 2022-07-24 14:17:35
content:
  "scam" is really just my way of summing in a word this situation people who are being dropped after money had been collected from them for years.

  And it's not so much that NCR is a bad product in that there's no store. However for what it is, a store of value in-game, I think it's just fine. I've given it to people numerous times effortlessly and that's been fun. And KFC has been experimented with plenty in interesting ways and I consider those same experimentations basically potential future ones for NCR. And that imagination makes it enjoyable for people to hold or invest in it, because it excites them about the future of the platform. So what's wrong with it? 

  And when NCR was crashing, no one really needed their dear empathy, lmao. The whole crash was -caused- by Froox and friends. That's the kinda whole thing. That this real, measurable damage caused to people was -deliberate-. You seem to want to never acknowledge that. This isn't about people who "lost out betting" so get out of here with that shit. This is about trying to make a subset of the community collateral damage. That's always what has been going on. And you're playing a role in that by trying to smokescreen what's going on.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 12:39:26
edit_date: 2022-07-24 13:05:32
content:
  You know what is really sad. Not to long ago frooxious hired on someone specifically to help with programming. This is a rare thing, because non of the other volunteers do much in the vain of programming the main engine. They all work on peripheral aspects, like rendering and such. The core software is all frooxious.

  Well anyways the one person who was hired on to help with programming was basically side barred immideatly and not allowed to touch anything. And they cept him relegated to his little corner until he quit. It was really depressing. Because he was a good programmer. Frooxious just did not want to share his project.

  The biggest shame is that this guy had a brilliant redesign of the logix UI. But because of how poorly optimized neos is it was resource innificent. And Frooxious opted to ostracize him as oppose to try to make logix easier to work with.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 13:30:28
edit_date: 2022-07-24 13:40:54
content:
  It’s tragic that the legacy of Neos will be as a shining example of how not to structure a social VR startup. There have been monumental missteps on both sides including but not limited to the 50/50 ownership distribution, to the lack of formal developer contracts, the lack of NDAs, the lack of any kind of IP ownership structure, and the mishandling of NCR’s optics such as in the case of the burn poll.

  The furries have a problem with nepotism and hiring within their ranks to increase the volume of their echo chamber, their incredibly toxic and delusional hubris that drove them to believe they could start a coup against the CEO which clearly has not worked, and their double standard of both investing and profiting from NCR while later trying to detach it from the platform.

  Either way Neos is a doomed project. If the furries win they will continue to struggle with no viable revenue model and only a trickle of Patreon funds. If Karel wins he will need to rebuild the development team from the ground-up including a new MVP CTO who will likely end up having to re-write a lot of missing code contributions from the furry devs who pull their commits on git because nobody took 5 minutes to draft IP ownership documentation early on. 

  What could have been one of the most powerful Metaverse projects in existence will end up as a footnote on Wikipedia and that’s fucking sad.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 16:16:41
edit_date: 2022-07-24 17:54:13
content:
  I think it's more they just ignore it more than anything (can I have some of their optimism XD) but... That makes me wonder why they aren't worried about the platform dying as much as me or others are.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 16:24:44
edit_date: 2022-07-24 20:56:02
content:
  That has come across my mind a couple times... Where I was thinking (before the big mess), if Neos is to get bigger, the majority's opinion on things is likely not going to be the majority in the future, and they probably won't like it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-24 18:01:05
content:
  That's why surveying and consulting with team members who are dealing with new users is fairly important. Having people organize that kind of data and present it are kind of the only real ways to understand where to steer the boat, or at the very least, see which ways the winds are blowing. Usually you'll see some kind of pattern.
  But, of course, we can't predict the future, only accommodate for possibilities and leave room to have options to deal with it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 01:28:39
edit_date: 2022-07-25 01:32:51
content:
  Good morning gang☀️🌻

  Okay okay, let’s see if I can inject a bit of optimism here🤔😁
  I mean, I get it. Neos is a mess. It can seem like a kinky little community for a niche furry fandom to those who don't see the full picture, but these are just the few loud voices. 

  The platform is absolutely *not dead*. And the fact that we're not dead is a testament to how much people still love Neos. 
  We have  wonderful creators ❤️
  https://twitter.com/JayNekoVR/status/1547415099509542913?s=20&t=kqSKbnMstFn-SwTA8fPRCQ 

  People who use Neos as a professional tool. 
  https://twitter.com/sirkitree/status/1544807204221374464?s=20&t=kqSKbnMstFn-SwTA8fPRCQ

  We have dancers, we have educators… 
  So let's not exaggerate.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 01:28:58
edit_date: 2022-07-25 01:32:35
content:
  Yes, it's true that our user base has been declining, partly that's because the platform itself isn't easy to use and has a very “creative” interface. 
  There are still about 280 peak time users, 144 in the last 30 days as far as steam charts go, and while  it could be way more at least it's a pretty steady number given the situation😁 

  It's easy to talk about how you would do this or that differently.
  I hear people say things like, “Neos was better in the old days.” But what does that even mean? Are we talking about the same thing? Because if you look at funding, we've never been able to scale up until now.
  Before Neos was big enough to actually hire professionals, I think people knew that processes and documentation were important. They just didn't know how to make it work. Asking someone to help out with your project as a volunteer is something enirely different than paying to a technical writer or UX designer.
  And for a lot of people on the current team it’s been hard to actually scrutinize their own process and admit that some things would have been better left up to experts. (Like the UI again😁) 
  That is what is called professionalism tho. 
  And we are going to grow more of this. Much more of this. 😉


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 01:30:09
edit_date: 2022-07-25 21:29:05
content:
  You can continue to blame people for this and that but the fact is we have already taken responsibility for the current state of platform many times. 

  We know the future of Neos is not about being “a hugbox" for a selected few, as someone here put it (quite funny haha😁). It’s about acessibility, open-sourcing, decentralisation, cross-platform and cross-device compatibility and of course about variety. From giving you tools to live your virtual life to making it easier to get things done for your business or training program.  

  Metaverses come and fail since Second Life had a go in 2013. Neos is not dead. It’s just taking a little power nap to come out more powerful 😉💪


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 01:52:54
content:
  So what is actively being done to get neos out of its power nap state. As far as we can tell this has just turned into a competition of who can wait the other out the longest. Can you confirm that Karel has been actively doing anything other then waiting for Frooxious and his volunteers to fold?


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 02:31:26
edit_date: 2022-07-25 02:49:01
content:
  He would be a bad businessman if he did just that☺️. Announcements will come when it's their time. It's not really about a waiting competition. It's more like ....game of chess I suppose. There are steps and actions and you make your moves according to what the other side is doing, while you have a strategy. Even though in this case it's not about crushing the other side but rather a mutually beneficial result. 😁( I love chess ever since Queens Gambit so you have to excuse me😁). Nobody is just sat there waiting. And I appreciate your direct question. Thanks.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 02:36:08
content:
  How many people here enjoys actually playing Neos? ☺️ I talk to a few of you every now and then and always happy to meet up in Neos and see your new creations. ☺️I think some of you are incredibly talented and my jaw drops every time I see all those fun avatars and worlds people make❤️


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 04:30:47
edit_date: 2022-07-25 05:06:47
content:
  I guess this might be a bit of a weird one to directly answer, since it's a bit like saying "How many people enjoy playing on the PS5/XBox/Switch/Deck?" Like, for me, I enjoy tinkering with things and planning out what can be built from the newly learned knowledge. But as far as entertainment goes, I can acknowledge that it isn't exactly exciting to everyone when compared to playing an actual title or game part of a platform.

  So if it's more for say experiences that exist within Neos, I haven't really done much in quite awhile. I remember some game maps being reconstructed and being able to wonder them, but that's about it. Amongst my bucket of ideas, I'd want to make something for casual hanging out, but I am not quite there yet in understanding Neos's tool box.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 05:21:25
edit_date: 2022-07-25 05:21:40
content:
  I completely disagree with your second message here. My volunteer work is designed to be at the same quality as my professional work and the only difference there is the time i can provide.

  I was scrutinizing my processes almost daily till I stopped doing them when this mess happened. 

  I'm not sure you intended it but It felt a little hurtful to diminish our volunteers contributions in this way. Some of our volunteers are actually professions including ones in many of the areas you described as needing to hire professionals in. 

  The rest of your message is a great outlook though, thank you.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:12:07
edit_date: 2022-07-25 08:39:40
content:
  I'm sorry you feel that way. Of course I have always respected the work of the team, and I can't take credit for any past success of the platform - it wasn't my idea, or my design, or my code. But I think I always made that clear that team effort mattered to me.

  But when processes are all over place in a company, with people just "knowing" what needs to be done rather than documenting it formally, with proper timeline and goal keeping, it makes it impossible to get a single date on the roadmap out. And it creates stress. 
  I think we can agree as you were in these neverending “board meetings” where we got grilled for not delivering even the most basic things.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:12:14
edit_date: 2022-07-25 08:39:33
content:
  It felt terrible but I have never complained, not a single time. Because I would rather get stuff done. And because I know that it was not necessarily fault of the team - the structure and the culture was broken. 
  But you also know that I really tried to fix it when I joined in. With you guys. 
  Only to be told eventually that it was "too late."
  So frankly I am quite glad you opened up this conversation now because talking of hurtful -  do you know how that feels to spend hours and hours of working up strategies only to be told that people have no interest in fixing things?


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:12:42
edit_date: 2022-07-25 08:39:31
content:
  I have my utmost respect for Frooxius, for you and for many people on the team. I know that people have been working hard, and I'm grateful to all of you for that. But I also need you acknowledge that there were many things that were less than ideal and it was almost impossible to get a professional on board from the outside of Neos - because if you keep everything so cryptic and complicated, and virtually impossible for anyone outside of Neos to grasp, it's not a sustainable development strategy in my humble opinion.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:15:46
content:
  > But when processes are all over place in a company, with people just "knowing" what needs to be done rather than documenting it formally, with proper timeline and goal keeping, it makes it impossible to get a single date on the roadmap out. And it creates stress. 

  Our GitHub while sometimes, not up to date repeatedly seemed to be ignored when the conversations of the "new roadmap" came up. We had work in progress. Documented on that GitHub roadmap. It was unclear yes, but I wouldn't call it cryptic


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:19:54
content:
  From my personal opinion, as a new member to the company I wished you had spent more time trying to understand our existing processes and plans rather than coming out with your own ideas, plans, goals and tooling. 

  Whenever I join a new job I spend at least a week basically "soaking" i see what's going on and how best to help. I meet with everyone who is suitable and ask them what they need help with. etc. 

  I try to understand their existing processes before changing and adjusting them. I don't start with an initial approach of "we're doing it this way now" I take them on a journey to learn how we can adjust things into a new better way of operating.

  However, this is all moot(not the right word). Based on the existing conversations, its not likely to be a productive conversation to continue. I have nothing personal against you Andrea and I enjoy your optimism. 

  No doubt, some members of this channel will wake up soon and start trolling me, but I'll be busy doing other items at that time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:36:45
content:
  Honestly, I feel that's why discussions on creations within Neos aren't held here. Criticism is acceptable and often welcome, but the pessimistic responses usually upholds stronger, in addition to inconsistent representation of rules.
  Sometimes you do get pockets where this isn't the case, but it's sadly not  the norm. It may be from the vocal few, but it's enough that of the 300+ members here, silence is often the emissary.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:46:32
edit_date: 2022-07-25 08:48:03
content:
  There is one quote that is quite fitting  : “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” 

  You might try to pin this on me for bringing “changes” but the fact is that the way things were up till then clearly did not work. Otherwise there would be none of this mess. There have been some liberties taken in the past that are not common in many companies. If any.  I think people took things for granted.
  I want to assure you that I was not trying to force my way through anything. But I am standing firmly behind Karel’s vision of the future of Neos because I believe in it, and because it is what people who bought NCR signed up for. 

  And as far as I am aware, nobody from the Team Frooxius (if we gonna be so awkwardly separatist) has made clear how exactly they see the future of Neos and delivering what people who bought in with NCR signed up for. 

  I have no doubt that you have good intentions, but it seems to me like we're going around in circles again and I agree that we have better things to do than re-reviewing history.

  I thank you for your interaction however and hope you have a fantastic day ☺️


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:52:54
edit_date: 2022-07-25 06:55:08
content:
  I am not pinning this on you at all.  Quite the opposite.

  As for the quote, we weren't doing the same thing over and over again. We were slowly adjusting our processes to be better. Progressive Enhancement with a growth mindset.

  What we needed from you was a helping hand to guide us and steer us. But it felt(again personal opinion here) that your changes were too brash, quick and without consideration of the existing processes, people, policies and dynamics that existed that contributed to this.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 06:58:27
content:
  Oh I am all for slow adjusting but when releasing somethig so simple like 2 minute trailer video takes 2 years (and it's still not done😁), then I think it's time to speed up a little 😁😁☀️


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 07:01:02
edit_date: 2022-07-25 07:01:47
content:
  That one I was not involved with, so I can't comment but I take great offense to your use of emojis there as an attempt to de-escalate a "dig" at the team. 

  So yes, we'll agree to disagree.

  🌻


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 07:14:47
edit_date: 2022-07-25 07:16:49
content:
  the last comment for the sake of politeness and good manners - I do apologise for the emojis above if that is perceived as offensive. I can see why that could come across as passive-agressive this way. Not my intention. So pardon me @ProbablePrime . Have a great day and I do mean that ☺️


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 08:58:27
edit_date: 2022-07-25 08:59:14
content:
  I don't want to butt in anywhere but depending on your country's texting culture, emoji usage seem to be seen way differently, not always thought of immediately as sarcastic


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 09:16:15
edit_date: 2022-07-25 10:18:45
content:
  I'm really thankful for Andrea to come out and talk here to us. This has been quite something to read.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 09:19:34
content:
  I understand this feeling. In some brief interactions I've seen you guys say things like "we don't care" and other non-interactive language that's shut the door on dialogue.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 09:20:21
edit_date: 2022-07-25 09:20:35
content:
  After all, it's not needed anyway, because there are plenty of others ready to agree with you always. Infact it's probably quite a look to shut down conversations with an air of authority.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 14:01:44
content:
  What board meetings are you referring to? I don't remember anyone being grilled for failing to deliver. Many roadmap/requested ideas were discussed and some status of items were asked, but I wouldn't qualify any of that as grilling as it wasn't our role to hold anyone accountable.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 14:03:21
content:
  I can absolutely understand the heat problem. 😅 it’s over 36 over here and it makes putting on a hot headset less than appealing 😅


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 14:14:01
content:
  I heard the optimism from various members of the team when you joined, even some being a bit too optimistic (but understandably as they wanted to see the platform grow by leaps and bounds) and were excided to welcome good changes to get there. But I agree with Prime, connections are important and taking that time understand the people and the processes on a platform that is more of a family for most was critical. I've only been on the platform for just over the year and I still don't know the team well enough to provide input in such a way where it would come from someone informed enough to do so.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 14:17:39
content:
  But I don't disagree with your observations, you did hone in on many of the weaknesses/struggles with the existing processes and some of the potential solutions you offered were good ones that might have worked or at least could have been adapted to work and may work in the future once things are sorted out.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 14:20:29
content:
  I said this at many of the board meetings; other companies/projects would have killed to have the same culture and people involved with Neos. Neos was very lucky to have developed this culture and found such good people for the team, and on top of that have an absolutely incredible community which promoted good behavior and were willing to do what it takes to help others.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 14:51:20
content:
  No company would wish upon itself a team with an inner-clique culture where hiring is impossible, deadlines are controversial and which uses that status to build strife in the community against itself.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 14:54:51
edit_date: 2022-07-25 15:18:55
content:
  Imagine a company would "kill" to have no say in hiring and have every effort be undermined because it would upset your culture or something. Imagine being lucky to have a community that attacks outsiders and some of its most helpful community members and run them out of the community and is hostile to its own funders.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 19:02:29
content:
  Basically you say a new hire needs to shut up and observe how the boys do their thang before she should be allowed to speak up and do the job she was hired for. You don't... see a problem with that? I don't even know what point you're trying to make. 

  It sounds like the point is that they were justified in rejecting her as a useful member. Something that still stands.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 19:40:24
content:
  This isn't what I meant at all. Gradual onboarding over 1-2 weeks and sometimes a month is normal this isn't telling new employees to shut up. This is allowing their input from day 1 but the new employee also taking time to learn the dynamics of a new company.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:21:21
content:
  Ah I see, she overstepped her bounds. She shouldn't have spoken up until her seniors deemed her onboarded enough


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:23:51
content:
  When you put it that way, she was out of line to consider herself a team member and interacted in such an assertive way


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:42:08
content:
  Thing is - I don't even use mods. Hell I don't even know how to install a mod. But it seems like just a very bad decision, also lots of reports of mass-banning of people who complain etc' etc'.

  Just doesn't seem healthy.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:42:41
content:
  But naw, you're a clown. I'm disgusted with you trying to softly rationalize someone talking down another hire based on them not sheepishly hanging around. That her engaging immediately and with enthusiasm is seen as a flaw


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:45:02
content:
  Sorry, did they not banwave a bunch of random people without furry avatars thinking they were "cryptobros"?


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:45:56
edit_date: 2022-07-25 22:45:23
content:
  Just as a profile picture. They'll treat you abit better. This platform is either Japanese or -very- furry


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:46:40
edit_date: 2022-07-25 23:26:58
content:
  Quite frankly, you don't deserve the new users but I will say yes, go and check it out and I genuinely hope you like it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 20:48:40
content:
  I love this. I was just reading the discord and saw andreas be called a "stooge" who has "no grounds to speak" and no one really took issue with that


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:05:52
content:
  reminds me of Reactants videos that were pretty nice and got me interested, and he got treated in very similar fashion


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:06:25
content:
  like when do we admit that Neos has an ostracization problem that starts at the top and extends down?


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:08:51
content:
  Seen the all hands on deck situation before back when AltSpace announced it shutdown and people scrambled for someplace new. I know the wave isn't going to be a walk in the park


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:11:02
content:
  So Neos has ostracized Karel, Andrea, Reactant, Tizzy, "cryptobros" and probably many others, and we just kind of try to rationalize it after the fact and pretend there isn't a problem


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:11:48
content:
  Because if anything reading the shit today was a clear reminder of everything that's happened before


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:15:13
content:
  I see coordinated passive aggressiveness, but whatever, I won't forget it and I'll just keep bringing it up anyway.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:18:25
content:
  This goes without saying, but for people who are joining in VR, do remember to remain hydrated, especially during this rather spicy summer


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:20:15
content:
  Nothing I'm doing is preventing you from helping new players. But lets not play dumb, there's coordinated pointless banter back and forth meant to bury the concerns of how members were treated earlier today


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:22:39
content:
  It was basically said that a new hire didn't keep their head down long enough and acted too enthusiastic in her role, and that she needed to shut up and watch how the fellas' culture is before she should get to peep up and start doing her job


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:39:30
content:
  I'm not. I just see no response to the inconvenient things pointed out and then an attempt to bury what I said.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:40:50
content:
  That a more senior hire should get to talk down to another hire in such a way and say to them basically "you had no real right to interact with us in such a way"


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:41:45
content:
  Like, that's their concern but I'm just revolted by the way you all slide in all slimey like to try to justify it


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:42:29
edit_date: 2022-07-25 21:42:59
content:
  I even tried to be polite in the face of it until others felt they needed to back Prime for whatever reasons or attempts at browniepoints


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:45:10
content:
  I think you're completely missing my point if you think that I'm trying to justify anything. I am agreeing with Prime and adding my own observations on how the changes in management impacted the team.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:49:33
content:
  I don't need brownie points with @ProbablePrime but thanks :) I do agree with many of the statements he makes and can tell you he's always been honest with me and I've always caught him being honest with others.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:51:52
edit_date: 2022-07-25 21:54:33
content:
  Here's how I interpretted it: "look hun, you needed to be alittle more careful. You needed to keep your head down more and watch their culture more before you get to start doing your job proper"

  Like, can you imagine working for a company and talking down to a hire and telling them they shouldn't be actually engaging in work? For such petty reasons like this? Like even if that was off-putting, the proper thing to do would be to engage with the hire's output?

  Like how much of a diva do you have to be that you expect hires need to observe you for a week before they can start trying to do their job??? LOL


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:57:17
content:
  I see how you interpreted it that way, but taking time to learn and understand the business and its people is key to making good decisions later that can impact those people or processes. Decisions have been made in the past and nothing is ever off the table, but they should start with a discussion/conversation with the subject mater experts in each of the domains before one can make an informed decision.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:58:58
content:
  you've never talked to me before. Go bother someone else. Or help new Neos users like you're pretending to do.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 21:59:57
content:
  They were onboarded by the damn CEO and were working with him on many of these things before hand...


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:00:25
content:
  but fine even if the first impressions were clumsy, I don't see why that is being brought up now as if it was her fault or flaw


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:01:59
content:
  Well you and him and sort of implying she just came out of nowhere. When what really happened was she was enthusiastic, likely excited, and came to everyone PREPARED


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:02:18
content:
  The CEO isn't expected to know much about operations, so why a COO needs to get information from the Dev/Operations side first person.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:05:36
content:
  That conversation was fucking awful and the reaction is to cross arms and nod next to prime for no reason than to just further make sure she knows she was out of line back then, didn't know her place well enough


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:07:33
edit_date: 2022-07-25 22:07:38
content:
  There was an update to VRChat that has upset a lot of users so they are checking out Neos and ChilloutVR


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:08:44
content:
  But whatever, it's a broken record of rehashing in here anyway and it's not helping anyone - but I constantly see others blaming specifics or the way one particular thing happened as the root cause of the dev stoppage/disagreements and I'm feel I deserve to make a point, along with anyone else in here.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:11:28
content:
  I'm less and less optimistic each day about Neos's future, which is turning me more pessimistic which I am usually not and don't exactly like.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:12:35
content:
  Regarding the VRChat anti-cheat announcement and Neos user growth or something else? (Sorry still catching up)


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:14:02
edit_date: 2022-07-26 01:04:16
content:
  but yeah, Lucaedr basically  decided to tell everyone how she was out of line and then go on to imply that she mighta been the reason things went to shit with "thats how you end up losing an entire team..."


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:15:01
content:
  and I might have been able to stomach it if not for the general tone of it seeming like everyone felt they needed to nod next to Prime after all.... that


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:18:46
content:
  I haven't read that yet, but I would disagree with placing blame on Andrea. She was hired to do a job and was trying to do it. I heard directly from her what thoughts she had on how to improve DevOps, priorities - I saw these were areas that were lacking from my short time on the board so I was really encouraged that she joined the team because I really thought she'd bring in experiences in these areas that the team need to help to become more organized.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:27:46
edit_date: 2022-07-25 23:39:48
content:
  You might want to put up a Furry avatar before you go to the discord btw. They mass banned a bunch of people based on the look of their avatar


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:33:12
content:
  You know, I was going to tell him to download the game on Steam and that be all, but you decided to start attacking me infront of him like a child and ended up giving me a good laugh.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:36:34
content:
  why dont you try to help users instead of.. lets see what you chose to do... start calling me names and provoking me?


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:38:42
content:
  You seem to think provoking and attacking me is going to make me go away instead of just letting me have my conversation with Lucaedr and Rucio but no


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:40:40
edit_date: 2022-07-26 01:15:24
content:
  I do, but if I dared share the name of my main account I'd likely be driven off of the platform like others have been, and like how we almost saw today


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:45:21
content:
  sorry for the conversation earlier. It may look like she's not a valued team member with how people felt they needed to join in talking them down and belitting their contributions and enthusiasm, but the opposite is true and she'll help you get set up on the discord


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:47:53
content:
  Well no VRC users have really been showing up here so I guess my time here is done. I'll be back in a month or less


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:50:27
content:
  My advice: Contact neos moderation website to get unbanned from discord, instead of wasting time here.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:51:37
content:
  Hi, am staff, If you'd like to get unbanned, open a moderation ticket at moderation.neos.com.

  From reading this should be an instant unban but the ticket would need to exist to process the unban.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:53:09
content:
  I know, i saw you being helpful. I appreciate it. Sometimes seeing a staff respond with the same message helps re-inforce your message.


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 22:57:37
content:
  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/854453669394645033/1001261840602517504/unknown.png is either of these them?


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 23:00:09
content:
  That goes a bit too far after beeing provided with a ton of help and refusing to do a very basic task, dont you think?


type: message
date: 2022-07-25 23:50:17
edit_date: 2022-07-25 23:50:35
content:
  It's exactly what I wanted VR Chat to be, just need more people but I can drag a few unlucky souls I've """befriended""" over to it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 00:31:34
edit_date: 2022-07-26 00:32:57
content:
  New registrations have been hitting some rate limits, it is a rolling limit so you should be fine to try again before that. I don't know how many it is or how long so probably just in an hour or so


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 00:39:05
content:
  They haven't learned from the woke companies that lost everything  . . . you don't piss off your meal ticket


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 04:34:16
content:
  to be fair, many are also users who aren't able to register, but it seems the servers are waking up again


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 07:12:10
edit_date: 2022-07-26 07:30:57
content:
  That is beautiful. Thank you so much for that and to all of you who help. I am sure it's much appreciated by everyone.🙏🌻


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 15:46:43
content:
  Ncr is an utility currency. Meaning it is just a limited amount of tokens that are given to the players for advancing the development of neos. Indirect by giving money or direct by programming, art, helping the community


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 15:49:20
content:
  Its value is basically just assigned to it, because people want it and exchange it. Like diamonds that are just shiny rocks. Its value comes from them being limited and derived by the way work is needed to gain it


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 16:03:28
edit_date: 2022-07-26 20:20:52
content:
  Think ingame currency of games, wow gold, plex, linden dollar... Just with the difference that it can not be created from thin air anymore. There is a limited supply of it that cant change, secured by a blockchain.


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:15:55
content:
  Ah, the syncing. Yeah, that isn't normal. I'm not sure if there are any updates related to that, but I'm still at work.


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:21:29
content:
  I've gone ahead and passed along the concern in the Discord for further assistance. They've stated you can kill Neos and try to relaunch it with an extra parameter, which will force Neos to sync any outdated information. You can find this information here: https://wiki.neos.com/Command_Line_Arguments#:~:text=-ForceSyncConflictingCloudRecords


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:22:34
content:
  I think the 'menu laser' is based on the controller's laser, but don't quote me on that. You can offset your avatar's laser pointer to better match what you want, but usually the two are in sync.


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:23:52
content:
  You might want to poke the Discord for that one. The online mentors should be able to better figure out what is the cause, since I can easily see that might be a bug, but might also be an unintended option in this case


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:32:08
content:
  One more thing to check is that you have enough storage available. Otherwise things will save locally but not sync.


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:33:24
content:
  You could close and reopen the client, a sync will try again once the client is running (no data will be lost)


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:39:10
content:
  do you have an idea what it tries to upload? you have in total 1 GB storage if you have not patron or anything like that


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 19:39:48
content:
  if you, for example, pulled in a video and store that in your inventory, it might single handetly exceeded your storage


type: message
date: 2022-07-26 23:35:57
edit_date: 2022-07-26 23:39:00
content:
  Karel @malooniac Evening, would you be willing to consider removing perks that currently cannot be delivered from the Patreon? I know it hasn't been updated in a while but I've heard that some users who are reading the perks on the Patreon are being turned away when seeing specifically the NFT perk, even though currently Neos does not have platform support for NFTs or deliver an NFT perk outside of the platform. Thanks!


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 00:53:40
edit_date: 2022-07-27 00:56:32
content:
  Good morning to you all and welcome all the new members. I see a lot of new names joining. Wonderful. Let's be kind and supportive to everyone ☺️


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:00:16
edit_date: 2022-07-27 01:19:21
content:
  Let me see about it, Patreon probably needs some updating yes, or rephrasing it very least if that is not clear enough that this is something we don't currently support. Especially with all these new people joining. Thanks for pointing it up I will keep you updated. Have a wonderful day😊


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:21:33
content:
  Hi @Dark_Dutchie Nice to meet you here and sorry to hear you are having problems with the upload. You could try to back up the user data directory to “get unstuck” 

  Try this solution please :

  1. Go to the AppData folder 
  Should be under %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\Temp\Solirax\NeosVR\   
  2. Rename the NeosVR folder (make sure that the folder you are renaming is in LocalLow)

  What this will do is create a new data directory, and clear the queue, so you will have to start with “clean Neos”, meaning you will have to go through the initial tutorial again, but it should help.
  As someone mentioned, it doesn’t happen too often but it happens.
  Usually for me it's when I try to upload something more complex or “broken” 😁 so it basically jams it.
  This will need some more elegant solution in time but for now it should help you. 

  If you are still stuck, please contact the team on Discord, they will do their best to help.🌻


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:21:47
edit_date: 2022-07-27 03:30:24
content:
  I mean VRC did just launch the EAC update, so this game will get flooded for a while. I hope they have the power to sustain this major influx of players


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:24:30
content:
  I mean this is what works for me if you are stuck - like the upload is not moving and it stays on 10% or something. That is something that helped me in the past when all else failed. But if this is a wrong solution for you, please feel free to ignore. I am only guessing here 😁


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:34:01
edit_date: 2022-07-27 01:50:37
content:
  I've made mention that some of the mentor team would be able to provide assistance on Discord, as some were removed from this chat. I could continue to telephone on telegram, but given the technical issues here, more direct communication would be assistful


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:52:05
edit_date: 2022-07-27 02:00:18
content:
  This is a very nice time for us. I just wish Geenz wasn't using it as a chance to attack NCR holders and Karel on discord.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:55:22
content:
  so i just downloaded neos vr and while registering i was supposed to be sent an email to verify but one never came through. has this happened to anyone else and if so how fix?


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 01:56:53
edit_date: 2022-07-27 02:01:04
content:
  Neos doesn't take that much processing power, even at 3 times the players, simply because the worlds are hosted by the players, not the service. Thats the reason its not completly burned to the ground by now


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 02:02:36
content:
  Hi @BrakionTGM welcome. You should normally receive it straight away but I think the current influx of users might have slow things down a little. If you still get nothing, please contact Shifty on Discord team, giving them your name and email, they will help you out. Sorry about your problems and hope you enjoy Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 02:02:38
content:
  And data storage is on 3. party cloud, so there is scaleable capacity for hundred times the current players


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 02:25:05
edit_date: 2022-07-27 02:25:50
content:
  Impressive. Its good that neos is designed to be scaleable. That is pretty much 7 times the normal player count


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 03:11:34
content:
  well we're on the board finally. Just need to keep up the momentum and 10% can easily turn into 50% in time


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 03:13:02
content:
  And it feels like the team's idea for promotion and advertising themselves as an alternative is to just shit on NCR holders and publicly threaten them


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 05:06:34
content:
  things won't change until legal clarity. When certain goldnames want it dead and want us gone, I don't think anything except whale games will happen. They're on social media assuring people they want to kill it. Their own funders.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 06:15:07
edit_date: 2022-07-27 06:15:30
content:
  So it's bittersweet in that I'm happy for me and friends who play Neos, but I'm constantly reminded of the ugly stuff under the service where they want us gone


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 06:16:39
content:
  Well it's not like I want anyone gone, but after being treated like shit for so long you start to see that as the only outcome you could live with


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 13:51:55
edit_date: 2022-07-28 04:13:13
content:
  Hello @malooniac 

  I'am new to Neos and I have a hard time finding informations regarding the current state of Neos.

  It seems that you are an admin here so perhaps you could enlighten me...

  I hopped into the discord and saw many users talking (negatively) about what seems to be the currency of the game and how according to them it should be removed because it serves no purpose. 

  I tried to document myself through the website and found that the token is pretty interesting. I would like to bring my contribution to the project but it appears that the patreon is not a great option.

  Is it viable to buy the token? Are you indeed considering removing it from the non-steam client?

  Thank you for your answer and I hope everyone is having a blast playing Neos! ✌️☀️


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 16:20:17
edit_date: 2022-07-27 16:21:31
content:
  Thank you for your kind words, our official token Neos Credits - NCR is here to stay. Neos is free to use by anyone. No one is obligated to use NCR, its just for those who want to use it as in-app payment method and a reward for those who support Neos financially for example on Patreon. It has nothing to do with NFTs. Don’t believe the fudsters. Envy is unfortunately a powerful emotion and motivation.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 16:26:54
content:
  Any end in sight to the strike? The huge influx in users in the last few days has been really exciting. However a lot of people are worried this opertunity will go to waste if development remains stagnant.

  Can you give us a little hope nugget?


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 16:41:40
content:
  I couldn't help too many users last night due to work related complications, but clocked in about 11 hours doing MTC hopping to ensure everyone was alright.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 16:59:38
content:
  There seem to be many new groups looking to find a home in NEOS even before the VRC pump. I hope they are all welcomed irrespective of their culture and perspective, many will arrive with NFT issued avatar’s looking to build their own community and worlds.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 18:07:36
content:
  VRC uses slot storage, meaning can favorite X avatars unless subscribed. (Uploads are unlimited... for some reason)
  Neos uses capacity storage, so uploading an avatar that is 100MB uses 100MB of your storage on your account. This can be used also for other things, like videos, images, or other items.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 18:08:06
content:
  Sadly, no. It's still 0.5 NCR per GB per Month, but the value of NCR being as it is, I am not upset about that


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 18:08:55
content:
  I would consider buying maybe $50 more directly from a user in-world, which would give plenty of additional space around


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 18:35:13
edit_date: 2022-07-27 20:52:52
content:
  At the end of the day, Geenz has gaslit Frooxius into assuming the role of the abused housewife and it's almost infantilizing. They've weaponized emotional manipulation to win people over and it's something pretty typical of clout seeking furries. Geenz is an opportunist and he's leveraging this situation as a power play which is a very Second Life furry dev thing to do. 

  It's all cloak and dagger games and I saw it happen repeatedly in Second Life between the 3rd party viewer development groups. The ideal solution would be Frooxius snapping out of it and working things out with Karel, and both of them yeeting the non-contracted volunteers out of the project. In the meantime Geenz will continue to be wormtongue in the ear of Théoden.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 18:42:52
edit_date: 2022-07-27 20:54:25
content:
  We're busy helping new users out as the numbers continue to go up, and you are still venting this drama?


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 18:43:19
edit_date: 2022-07-27 20:54:10
content:
  I genuinely feel sorry for the flock of new users from VRChat who have no idea what they are opting into. Neos is built on a foundation of popsicle sticks and it's all coming down at some point. They've made zero progress with negotiations and the devs will continue to strike until Karel concedes, which he won't. The platform is in an eternal deadlock unless Karel takes the 2.5m left and starts something new from the ground-up.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 21:53:46
edit_date: 2022-07-27 22:38:19
content:
  Surprised the platform is holding up considering the dev team have sat on their ass for almost a year doing nothing


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 21:59:27
edit_date: 2022-07-27 22:41:47
content:
  from my perspective as someone who's like 100% new to this community and looked into what things are like here, i think the best thing would be the split that seems to be stalled

  it looks like the two 'groups' have two irreconcilable visions for neos as it stands and if the standoff continues, neos falls behind and dies, meaning neither's vision for neos happens


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 22:00:22
content:
  so i hope whatever is going on in the background keeps going so that it can fulfill the potential both groups see in it


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 22:55:21
content:
  Then that's totally fine and not against our rules. Mentors are required like all users to abide by our guidelines and if they do that's fine.


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 23:26:25
content:
  imagine where we'd be right now if ppl had just acted like grown ups and worked things out like professionals instead of staging a melodramatic "coup" against the CEO/co-founder of the company...


type: message
date: 2022-07-27 23:27:06
edit_date: 2022-07-28 00:54:21
content:
  maybe this new increase in user base will incentivize the parties to come together and push forward... but i'm probably being too optimistic


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 00:52:30
content:
  but go ahead, continue that fantasy if it makes you feel better. I'm at least making a use of NCR a bit more than most holders in this chat, and I even offer them the option to conduct an exchange in-world where I'll pay at market rates or even slightly better


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 00:55:25
content:
  I just bumped into Flame for the first time on Monday l night. I asked if they were a mentor trainee or interested in the Mentor program and they declined. So yeah, Flame is not interested in becoming a mentor and that is perfectly fine.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 00:58:49
content:
  you can spread all the lies you want, but my stance has been clear since the beginning: I don't want to be a mentor. I never was one in Neos, and I intend to keep it that way. It isn't due to malice or disagreements with the mentor team; I'm just able to provide support with needing or expecting a desired reward in the form of a title.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:07:33
content:
  More or less my reasoning due to past experiences. I know right now it's pretty much an all hands on deck situation, and given that I did have experience in the past helping new users (including situations akin to this one) as well as being friends with some people who are mentors, I understand the chaotic feeling that can entail, so I'm also helping them out as a token of my friendship.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:16:21
content:
  Why would anyone want to be a mentor except for being recognized as a person who is there to help people. There are no other benefits attached to that role


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:18:43
content:
  Hey Thomas, did you used to play SL? I feel like I've met you before when I used to help manage a sim


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:18:52
edit_date: 2022-07-28 01:19:07
content:
  I see why people don't want to be mentors. And those who want to become a mentor so badly, can you explain what your expectations are?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:20:26
content:
  If it's anything like the reasons I help moderate some telegram chat networks, it's probably because they want to be helpful and make sure new users feel welcome


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:23:29
content:
  I have a few reasons (already mentioned some above), but I can list one other one:
  Effectively, when I am out and doing the MTC hopping shuffle, I'm doing it to help new users, and many have asked about if I was an assistant or mentor. Every single time, I've admitted I was not. From that, I've made their first experience with a non-mentor, a regular user, effectively show that people are more than willing to help out and answer questions. This raises the floor of expectations and also helps improve things for newer people, who might be nervous or overwhelmed with the new environment.
  Anything that a mentor can do will almost always exceed what I can offer. They are the ceiling and expectations of desirable support. Rather than the range of expectations be large, I'm also contributing, as are many others, to keep them far higher and help enhance their first time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:27:10
content:
  I sadly cannot find the quote, but it was (if I recall) from the maker of the Sims.
  It somewhat goes as the following:
  "You have 5 minutes to draw the attention of the player.
  If you succeed, you have another 5 to have them engaged.
  If they stay, you have another 5 minutes to help keep them hooked and happy.
  If you can do all this for at least 30 minutes, you have a player who is happy and will stay."

  Helping the first 5 minutes of a player get through the tutorial and answer any questions is important.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:31:45
content:
  Anyway, I'm off to wrap up some cooking, overview how things are going (thank you, SteamDeck), and then go from there.  I might see about helping to organize some headless servers for mentors that provide easy to access sandboxes and that if anything happens in them, it doens't really matter.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 01:50:48
edit_date: 2022-07-28 01:51:34
content:
  The convo is the context that is missing in that post, which can change the meaning of that post quite a lot. It obviously addresses something that happened in the conversation before, however that information is missing to get any meaningful information from that snippet alone


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 02:09:16
edit_date: 2022-07-28 03:08:31
content:
  Guys I think I figured out what actually is the source off all the trouble between Karel and the team.

  What probably happened was Geenz vored Karel during a meeting. So Karel refused to hire him full time.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 02:30:12
content:
  Actually, that's something I haven't thought of: are there adult crypto sites and locations? With all the various coins and tokens, how does that all work?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 03:03:41
content:
  reads to me as "shit that's funny"

  it's also a real thing that the perception of a place being fringe/full of nsfw stuff can deter it becoming more 'corporately' monetized despite mass appeal as companies/communities believe it'll keep people away, which is actually thought of as positive within the furry community to a certain extent — "they think of us as freaks? well, it keeps corporations from making moves to monetize the furry fandom so that's a positive"


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 03:14:48
edit_date: 2022-07-28 03:55:43
content:
  Well... VRChat had plenty of furries and the like, and they got large investments. About 50% of new users I helped out were not furries. Sounds like assuming that Neos is some kind of corporate entity or should aspire to a suit and tie mentality might be more of not being aware of the current times and how many metaverse systems are viewed.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 03:15:07
content:
  Anyway, late at night, and we're looking good with fairly stable online numbers.
  https://imgur.com/xpBTt9l


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:07:23
content:
  And good thing I reclarified with the mentor team:
  First number is in reference to total registered users
  Second number is in reference to the grand total of users, including non-registered and headless clients.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:09:12
content:
  ahhhh good to know, thank you, and by the way is ther a reposetory where i can donload a headless client? with a tutorial? or a how to?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:11:06
content:
  The headless unfortunately can only be acquired by a patreon tier. However, if you want more information on operating that, the discord has dedicated channels to discuss their operations.
  However, it isn't required to run a world. Worlds can be operated by creating their sessions. Headless clients are just dedicated clients to run sessions, and nothing more.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:18:41
content:
  Good morning lovely people!☀️🐼🦄

  I hope everyone is waking up to a great day or going to bed knowing that you're part of amazing Neos community. And you're appreciated.🌞
  It's great to see so many new users signing up, and hopefully they'll find what they came for.
  No matter your reason for using Neos, I hope you enjoy it. 

  I happen to agree with Frooxius there in that Neos is a place for everyone. Some people are looking to use Neos for creation and expression, and others are looking for opportunities to generate income. Fortunately, Neos holds the potential to meet the demands of both groups...and if you don't think that's possible, just look at what people have already built.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:18:50
edit_date: 2022-07-28 04:19:09
content:
  Unfortunately, there are a lot of scam projects out there right now, so people might have a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to crypto. And yes, there is the ongoing situation that doesn't help at all. But hopefully some people are able to see past the current drama. 

  Personally I am excited about the potential of Neos as a decentralised metaverse for everyone and all the positive ways we will be able to support creators. But if you see no value in NCR or don't feel comfortable about it at this point, it is completely okay, just come and enjoy the game— it's there if you want it and if you want to support the project, but the platform itself will always remain free.  No need to ostracise either group. 

  ☺️🙏


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:24:42
edit_date: 2022-07-28 04:27:29
content:
  A word to anyone new that you don't have to even see NCR... It's basically a feature that makes it easy to tip people in-game if you want, and to incentivize people who fund the game. And it's not even visible on the Steam client. It's used by lots of foreign players who don't really see it as anything controversial like sections of the English speaking internet do.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:26:53
content:
  honestly, I had the tier for 2 years and I didn't get any noticable bandwidth benefits, nor a custom icon badge.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:28:23
content:
  and a nother thing,  am i dumb? i cant find the headless client channel in discord maybe only if i have the patreon rang?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:33:07
edit_date: 2022-07-28 04:48:49
content:
  I don't expect it to last long, but I actually feel GOOD as a Neos player. Like I've wanted to be happy seeing new players, but there's always been this feeling of being hated and simultaniously getting stabbed in the back under the surface, but eh, even if the message is pretty vague and corporate, I atleast get to pretend it's positive for me too as someone who has been getting shit on for months for defending NCR and the people who stuck their neck out to fund Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:38:07
content:
  Back in like 2018 the opinion of these things was WAY different. It was just a thing rewarding patreons. People would tip each other in it and it was fun, and eventually people started buying it to fund Neos.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:39:38
edit_date: 2022-07-28 04:40:02
content:
  oke but somone spawnd a vending mashine that wantet som of the coins that was mention in the menu in neos


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:41:17
content:
  Not rally? It's under the same limit as NCR, so in the steam client, it won't appear. But as Orc mentioned, it has no value, so people just use it for testing stuff and for acting as monopoly money everyone agrees to in a sense


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:43:20
content:
  seems odd... That's like removing regular ingame gold from an MMO or something for the steam version


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:45:31
content:
  The sole purpose of KFC was as a testing platform for NCR. KFC would have eventually been removed if everything with NCR went successfully.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:48:02
edit_date: 2022-07-28 04:52:13
content:
  Because Valve has banned all cryptocurrencies and NFTs from Steam, I think it was back in October last year.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:52:28
content:
  I actually don't know the exact reason of that decision, my understanding is that they didn't want to be associated with any kind of "gambling" games so rather than currating it, they did a blanket ban. Maybe somebody over here has a better insight?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:53:38
content:
  Its likely that, because games that utilize blockchain are OK as long as they don't generate any sort of asset. So like a save file or world state being stored on one seems OK


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 04:54:40
content:
  I think regulators have been hard on targeting Valve and they don't want to be involved in potential issues


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 05:19:10
content:
  the custom icon badge is something you can 'redeem' by chatting with a team member. I think shifty handles those, just provide the icon image you'd like to use to them. Sounds like it is also a thing you keep as long as you had that tier at some point in the past


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 05:22:40
content:
  ah okay. A bit like the patron voting thing, I didn't really know about it since the instructions weren't as readily available


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 05:25:13
edit_date: 2022-07-28 05:28:38
content:
  I think it is mentioned in the discord 'patrons' channel but yeah wasn't something I was told about how to redeem from the patreon iirc


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 05:31:31
content:
  It is atleast on the wiki along with explanation for other patreon rewards https://wiki.neos.com/Patreon#Custom_Icon_Badge


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 06:09:42
edit_date: 2022-07-28 06:19:46
content:
  You want to stab people in the back and then expect them to start doing free labor for you while you insult them? Stop pretending like you're here for any reason than to just drop an occasional petty insult lol


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 09:04:19
edit_date: 2022-07-28 09:39:48
content:
  I'm happy to see the influx of new users on neos ^w^

  I hope to see more content soon, I'm going to be making a few worlds myself in the coming days, as long as I can hopefully find a group of people willing to work alongside me ^w^


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:16:25
edit_date: 2022-07-28 12:22:43
content:
  There is a place in neos for everyone. Especially people who enjoy one of the more exotic forms of the vore fettish.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:22:31
content:
  I've actually got multiple different plans

  Plan 1 is a collaborative city, with a couple houses, shops, forest, park, caves, and a couple other misc buildings

  Each building / area could be made by a seperate person, and, as an example, someone could have a room in a house and build there, and it could be their room, for decorating what they want

  I plan for it to be pretty open (as long as there's no nsfw content, super trolly stuff, racism, etc)
  And be a cool little community collab type thing


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:23:35
content:
  Plan 2 is to make a little furry hangout like vrchat's Furhub, for the refugees from vrchat who are moving to NeosVR, so hopefully atleast those people will feel somewhat at home with their worlds of choice

  I know midnight rooftop is pretty popular right now so that's what gave me the idea for that


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:24:06
content:
  And then plan 3 is to try and make a small, general little world for hanging out that won't be too performance intensive, but will look nice and be something comfortable


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:24:07
content:
  I think plan 2 should be prioritized as it's a lot smaller in scale and costs (the first plan seems to require a headless, but correct me if I'm wrong)?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:26:15
content:
  Yeah, plan 1 will be a background wip because it requires a lot of work  though it'll atleast be something that can be contributed to over time by whoever decides, which I like

  I originally did this sort of thing in Tower Unite and it was amazing seeing what some people did with their areas

  Someone I met made a whole wizard tower there, and one made a shop, another made a little outside scene with a dumpster you could enter and watch YouTube in, was cool seeing creativity from many different people


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:26:57
content:
  I might want a headless for it, but it's probably best to not have one so that there's moderators on when it's hosted


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:28:04
content:
  Sounds good, I don't mind going for it once I finish summer courses, ~2 weeks and at that point I'll actually have some spare time


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:28:50
content:
  But the plan 2 and 3 I'll probably get started on asap, as I know a lot of people would enjoy both of those ideas ^w^


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:30:53
content:
  Wouldn't mind having more hands in the first plan tbh, the more the merrier with a project that's built on collaboration between anyone who wants to help ^w^


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:32:37
content:
  But yeah something I do wanna make sure while I'm building is that the furhub esque world isn't intimidating to non furries as well.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:33:58
content:
  That's important. I'm not a furry for instance and if the world is too furry I'd leave. Not for disliking you guys (I love furries they're hilarious) but because I'd feel out of place


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:34:11
edit_date: 2022-07-28 10:34:20
content:
  Many of the vrchat furry worlds only ride off of the fact they're labeled furry, to be honest, which in my opinion isn't really that great


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:36:42
content:
  It's why furhub, despite being horribly optimized, has been my favorite
  It has decorations, it's pretty, it has different areas to go to, even a little calm area for if you want to be alone with a small group

  It's furry themed but there are tons of non furries who hop around there and without them furhub wouldn't have been as fun to hang around honestly.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 10:38:27
content:
  But yeah no I understand this. It's the same reason I can't really partake in anime themed worlds, I don't watch a lot of anime so worlds themed after different anime (I.e. Jojo worlds and such) I just feel out of place in

  Not that I have anything against the fan base, or the anime itself, I just haven't seen it, so most of the time the worlds are geared towards fans and not meant to be general anyone hangout.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:17:14
edit_date: 2022-07-28 12:19:29
content:
  That's an often misunderstood tweet. They are looking for a regulatory person who understands digital finance this is a person to help them with the legalities of the modern world


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:17:41
content:
  Not a person to implement crypto. You need lawyers that understand crypto even if you don't plan to use it


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:17:48
content:
  Thank you I saw someone reply that a few days ago but didn't know who and didn't remember the specifics


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:34:56
edit_date: 2022-07-28 11:37:11
content:
  Well we're in a time of indecision where ideology matters more than the actual facts. if they go down that path it will be interesting to see I guess, just like if Neos did


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:49:11
content:
  I don't think Neos could really handle all the support and stuff to scale up trying to be linden-labs Jr though


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:49:48
content:
  yeah they could've made it accessible though steam wallet, paypal and NCR and not acted like NCR just existing was such a controversy


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:50:51
edit_date: 2022-07-28 11:50:59
content:
  AFAIK you can sell items on steam for steam wallet and also offer the same items on your own website


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:53:47
content:
  I'm not sure how the steam terms handle something like that. Quick, whats a non-valve game that sells user created content on steam?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 11:56:56
content:
  Well that's unfortunate because Valve does it themselves, with dota and tf2 items made by the community, and those creators get a (ridiculously small) cut


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 12:04:41
content:
  so buy item through Steam, money goes to Neos, that money then cannot go from Neos and be divided among the creators after?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 12:14:53
content:
  so if there was a neos website store, it couldn't interact with Steam. What if there were different Neos markets? like one that just sold items, and didn't involve loading neosbucks or whatever it would be?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:02:30
content:
  Maybe it's actually not such a good idea to make platform specific marketplaces for virtual worlds anymore. It made sense for second life, where everything had to be made in engine and for its special constraints.

  Nowadays, things are getting more... Universal. Instead of people being locked into a platform, you can buy models and things and upload them. I suppose functional objects, like with scripting, can't really translate universally.

  There's also a lot of legal challenges that come with making a currency and selling digital items for real money. If neos doesn't already also have unique item uuids, it might be a headache to stop people from buying some scripted item and then distributing it to all their friends with anything other than user made DRM


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:15:36
content:
  It's how game asset creators have taken advantage of standardizing graphics tech that's allowed a lot of avatar crossover between neos, vrchat, cvr, etc etc, yeah?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:18:44
content:
  Yeah, that's why there's a lot of utilities and stuff to automate this, but sometimes it doesn't work so well. I've seen some creators make files specific for different engines.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:20:45
content:
  I think something the crypto people bring up which is a pretty nice idea is the concept of being able to take something you buy into whatever digital system you want, but I'm not sure how that could be accomplished unless everyone decided on a standard engine with the same scripting, physics, etc etc


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:21:34
content:
  It's still amazing though to be able to buy a model and assets and plonk them into vrchat and neos respectively. If only it wasn't so much work in some cases.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:26:34
content:
  I was there in the prim days when everything looked like worse than Lego. I wonder why sl did so well in comparison to others in that case.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:28:45
content:
  Neos, vrchat, and chillout really remind me of those early days though, in terms of community and social atmosphere. I'm hoping they manage to avoid the major pitfalls that sl dropped into.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:30:15
content:
  I can see all of the same crazy infighting, community formation and crystallization, conflicts forming. =/


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:30:30
content:
  I mean... Neos kind of supports everything import wise. Hell, if I recall, it even support MilkShape3D files


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:31:32
content:
  Neos gets it right with allowing in engine creation, I think. That's what always annoys me on vrchat, being unable to change shit while playing. Idk how chillout works in that respect.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:33:10
content:
  Neos needs better protections though. You shouldn't be able to edit someone's avatar who you don't know in the world root.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:34:09
content:
  Thing is, that's something that just goes with the territory with a permissionless system. I'm not saying it's good, but I'm acknowledging why it is.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:38:02
content:
  Thing is that some edits aren't harmful, and others are. Some gadgets rely on it for simplicity, but I can understand why that'd get abused if left unchecked. Ultimately, Neos's bigger defense is that users can self moderate to a degree. In VRC, you can request someone to be kicked from a session, but that's about it. In Neos, you can establish these rules right away. If group functions were available, you could even update bans to group entities and have sessions optionally follow them as well.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:42:45
content:
  One solution I could see is making amendments to the Simple Avatar Protection system. To help keep backwards compatability, you could introduce a new component titled Advanced Avatar Protection, which offers protection checks against outside modifications and an internal list of accepted systems that are allowed based on the session or when the avatar was last saved. This could work a bit like how local changes work in some sense


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:43:53
content:
  A friend of mine instead created a uh... Kind of self replicating script that would reset the avatar back to its original state if edited


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:44:45
content:
  that's fine, but let's be brutally honest: is it worth having 100 extra slots to do that, or just one component that lets the system handle it?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:47:41
content:
  User solutions are also a sign of desired native functions. I mean, that's kind of what we're seeing with the VRChat shitshow going on. Having an avatar auto reset and even being able to define the resetted state would be pretty neat. That also doesn't mean that user solutions go away entirely, because there might be cases where you DO want edits, but only under specific conditions. If the component can be permission granted to certain systems, including ones inside itself, then you could enhance the protection with logix as well, giving even more options without needing to go crazy


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 15:51:08
content:
  I like that there can be user solutions though. Custom huds, personal tools, that sort of thing is just fun


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 18:26:37
content:
  Mistakes happen. Heck, had that occur with an old friend of mine I hadn't seen in awhile last night.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 18:28:03
content:
  Dude I have screenshots of me asking you not to interact with me and then blocked you when you compared me to a cartoon weasel xD


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 18:28:52
content:
  Eh, people might just have a bad day when that happens. It is cool though that in Neos you can just add the pronouns to nametags, which helps out quite a lot. Heck, I even RGBed one with a pastel outline. Came out pretty nicely


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 19:28:30
content:
  short qustion i somhow activatet pointer mode in desktop i kant turn around anymore wirth my mouse, how can i change it back again ?


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 19:46:36
content:
  The Pro Launcher is meant for licensed users. There is the main download link, which is based on the pro launcher, but is slimmed down for regular users. It doesn't contain the actual program when you install it.
  You might need to check your firewall, but I'd highly suggest the Discord for more direct technical assistance.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 19:49:25
content:
  Pointer mode? I had to jump to the Wiki to look around for that, since that actually sounds really helpful and neat. Unfortuantely, you're going to want to poke the Discord for that, since I'm unsure how that mode was even activated in the first place (sounds like Edit Mode, but I digress)


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 19:51:35
content:
  NeosVR offers a Professional License for users who intend to use Neos as a source of generated income, mostly for bigger projects. They also have an educational license system as well.
  I'd link to the page on the website that talks about it, but there isn't one anymore.
  There is the wiki page: https://wiki.neos.com/Neos_Pro


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 19:57:06
content:
  In previous times, Neos was used quite a bit with education systems, namely universities. One demo was for helping students train on how to correctly put on PPEs when dealing with patients who have very infectious diseases. I can find a video about it, but the general idea is that PPEs, even training ones, cost a large amount of money. However, you can screw up a virtual PPE as many times as you want.


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 20:09:56
content:
  but yeah, as noted by the Wiki, you don't really need it unless for being a major project. Of course, you can ask the mentor team should you feel a project's scope may warrant it, but there's a strong chance that unless it involves commercial use, it won't


type: message
date: 2022-07-28 21:12:53
content:
  No desire for that either. Sounds like someone wants attention, so here's your 5 minutes of it. It's all you are getting today


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 00:25:40
content:
  I'm taking a break tonight from user onboarding. Want to be fresh for the weekend rush. Man this has been fun ^^


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 01:09:22
content:
  more or less my feelings from yesterday. I'm still planning on getting some headless sandboxes going at some point, so users have a guaranteed place to meet up and not have to worry about someone's PC or Network throwing a fit


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 08:38:54
content:
  Figure this is probably the best place to ask. Anyone recommend a tax calculator that's good with coinbase, Metamask, blockfi, coinspot, and supports Australian taxes?


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 09:54:30
content:
  with coinbase, I know there was some partnered service, but I think it only can help with US taxes and it is rather finicky at best. Its estimates were more than 100x off


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 09:55:23
content:
  unfortunately, I do not remember its name and I deleted my account with them after dealing with the estimates being so far off, that I was better calculating it by hand and using my email receipts to get the rates based on the dates


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 12:53:57
content:
  Hello and welcome ☺️hopefully there will be a few Australian community members that can offer some advice on this, let’s see☺️


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 12:55:48
content:
  Hope everyone is going to have a great weekend and plenty of fun and chill in both Neos and outside too☺️☀️


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 15:39:04
content:
  Anything we can do to make the influx of (crypto positive) people joining Neos from VRC to know about NCR?


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 15:51:50
content:
  Not much we can do since the discord is full of anticrypto (anti NCR at this point) constantly asking for its removal..


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 15:55:12
content:
  There is nearly to Zero trust now, after the decisions and handeling of announcements, the coin and interactions from Karel.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 16:30:56
content:
  I'll see if I can't give a slightly non-hostile response:
  In a nutshell, if you enjoyed sandbox games like Garry's Mod, where you can build things in real time or just bring out items to play around with, then you'll most likely enjoy Neos, because it shares the same idea.  Instead of having to go to the Unity editor to add an accessory item or prop, you can just have the item in your inventory, and bring it around with you anywhere.

  And items are not limited to just 3D models. Vacation photos, funny videos, and even music can all be carried in your inventory and brought out in-world to either share with others or to just show. Instead of finding worlds with specific videos players, you can just bring the video player on the go.

  In addition, should you have any trouble with something, other people can jump in and help out. Because Neos allows collaborative building, other denizens can help with importing avatars, adding cool features, or even fixing something that isn't quite right. All your options and tools needed to do something are available at start, and you have full control over who can access your sessions, which can be adjusted on the fly without having to restart.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 16:35:20
content:
  There are a few guides that can help walk through how to do the import, but I'd highly suggest visiting a world where people are offering to help with importing your avatar. I did see one the previous night, and I'm sure the other people in-world can help out.
  I'd offer to help of course, but I'm at work. You can also ask the mentor team on Discord, who can also answer any questions that perhaps your custom avatar is having trouble with.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 16:36:16
content:
  (and as much as I could grab my steamdeck and try to jump in, while I can do avatar imports in desktop mode, I haven't done it with a controller exclusively)


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 16:37:32
content:
  But under normal conditions, an basic avatar import takes only 5 minutes. Adding additional features, like state toggles, does involve a bit more work, but this was also the same within the Unity editor


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 19:38:14
edit_date: 2022-07-29 19:38:44
content:
  Morning/Afternoon, just checking in to see if you have an update regarding updating the Patreon page. I'm seeing a lot of VRChat users rejecting Neos because of the NFT support listed on the Patreon even though Neos currently does not support or provide NFTs. Thanks!


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 19:42:40
edit_date: 2022-07-29 19:47:41
content:
  I second this. Would be nice to see the Patreon revised a bit with some more updated information and maybe even some additional tiers, since I know some people would like storage only perks.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 20:10:24
edit_date: 2022-07-29 20:11:42
content:
  There is no NFT support in Neos because of their high carbon footprint. After the Ethereum network solves that problem with the upcoming Consensus Layer (formerly known as Eth 2.0) we will be able to mint those unique NFTs for our supporters holding the respective Patreon tiers at the time. Patrons will be able to opt-out of the reward the same as they can currently opt-out of NCR rewards.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 20:17:26
edit_date: 2022-07-29 20:17:36
content:
  Thanks Karel. Suggestion, would you be able to add the opt-out phrase to the Patreon at a minimum? At least then we can respond to critics of "Neos supporting NFTs" by telling them if they choose to support Neos on Patreon they will be able to opt-out of NFTs


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 20:36:20
content:
  5 minutes for the day. Since you can copy my message, why don't you copy the entire thing, since you are inclined to post about it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 20:40:24
content:
  There's no inclusion of the message I was responding to. You can copy a single message, yet you didn't copy the one the mattered. I will not bend down to your own standards, and you only illustrate the point. If you hold no concerns, then you can do it yourself.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 20:53:03
edit_date: 2022-07-29 21:16:53
content:
  That’s a good idea, tier descriptions have been updated. I have a hard time understanding why someone would opt out at that time when the thing people don’t like about non fungible tokens has been solved, but it definitely should be a personal decision. The holder can transfer or destroy them at any time anyways.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 20:56:36
content:
  Just the token prior to Neos having the Id system, but an actual unique item with cool functionality after.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:35:05
content:
  What's the advantage to using an NFT, rather than a simple permission system, or a unique ID system? Wouldn't incorporating NFTs to link a token to an item be more costly in CPU and time in order to transfer items that aren't allowed to be copied?

  Then furthermore, wouldn't it be superfluous, given that you would need to implement a system in which a unique ID can be used in conjunction with making an item impossible to copy, or create multiple instances of the item?


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:35:43
content:
  Regardless of whether or not you use NFTs to track the IDs, because the NFT itself is part of the contract system of Ethereum, so it would only point to a link, or ID?


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:41:36
content:
  Weren't we talking the other day about how this is hindered by the lack of universal systems for metaverse applications?


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:46:20
content:
  In order for an item to be transferred from Neos to another application/metaverse, it would need to be compatible with that other application/metaverse, so the use of an NFT to give universal transfer is reliant on systems that don't exist, and wouldn't require NFTs to function. 

  Furthermore, for Neos to prevent users from copying NFT items/objects/entities, it would need a unique ID system that can be understood by the permissions system which doesn't exist yet.

  Also, for the NFT-linked item to be transferrable, all Metaverse applications, or other applications that allow the item would need to use the same ID system, or be able to take the NFT's token ID and link it to its own ID and permission system.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:47:10
content:
  Therefore, you would create a system that is no longer decentralized, because it would require multiple entities to have a centralized agreement upon which these things can be done, in a standardized way.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:48:20
content:
  Also, economically speaking, this would force large metaverse applications to adopt the use of the most popular blockchain technologies in order to be compatible with the standards, in the event that it's necessary for monetization to occur.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:48:55
content:
  Not to mention externalities like people being unable to access crypto altogether in some cases, which may lock them out of participating in marketplaces, such as those in countries where crypto-blockchain technologies are banned.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:49:17
content:
  Karel There is a constant criticism inside the neos community about the number of NCR buybacks that are happening from the official neos wallet.  What is the rationality behind this? It seems like neos itself is going to end up owning the majority of NCR. Most people seem to beleive it is an attempt at price control.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:51:03
content:
  Actually, NFTs are simply a use of the Ethereum Blockchain's 'contract' features. It's not an intended feature, but instead of embedding a contract, JSON is embedded to point to an ID, link, or any other text that you could want. It's not necessarily an ID, but it's always a JSON file.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:53:03
content:
  Then regardless, it would still require a standardized and agreed-upon ID system, or force metaverse applications to find a way to use those ID systems if they want to participate.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:54:57
content:
  No, it would require that the metaverse applications decide on a standardized type of ID, so that there's no overlap or repeating IDs. The NFT isn't an ID, it only contains an ID. It contains a JSON file that can contain an ID, or any other text.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:55:56
content:
  If metaverse applications decide to use their own kinds of IDs, then it would also require that all other metaverse applications that want objects to be transferrable between each other to implement these IDs, or have some kind of parser as well.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:58:18
content:
  Then wouldn't using an NFT for this purpose be superfluous given that any crypto token of any kind could be used as the identifier?


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 21:59:52
content:
  JSON is a file format that's used to make human-readable text files, which is usually used for configuration, but can have many uses.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:00:26
content:
  Just making sure I understand...
  The concern is that the proposed NFTs that were spoken about are supposed to be given out to people, with linked IDs from Neos so that the Neos internal representations can be linked, such that once it is brought into Neos, the 'cool functions' actually work? So if the item was brought out, and that data was submitted to another system, assuming the same functions were to be carried, it'd have to be linked into the JSON data of the token, so other systems know how to handle it, but that'd require an agreed consensus on how to handle function calls?


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:02:46
content:
  i asked only because i already answered your question, but i dont think you realized it due to your ignorance on the topic


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:04:15
content:
  That's really cool, but instead of insulting me, you could just actually answer questions like a normal person instead of having a superiority complex.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:05:14
edit_date: 2022-07-30 07:49:06
content:
  i dont have a superiority complex. there are a lot of tech pretenders in here FUDing about NFTs despite not understanding how they function or what they even are


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:05:45
content:
  I'm actually trying to talk about something and asking questions, and if people know more than me I'm super interested in hearing what they have to say instead of having inspirational gnomes flout about trying to 'expose' me


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:06:19
edit_date: 2022-07-29 22:06:30
content:
  If you are dealing with who I think you are, they won't. They cower at being direct because they can't. Sadly, a demonstration on why moderation here is lacking, which we need given the user influx.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:06:49
content:
  No what really pisses me off is that they know what they're talking about but all they care about is trying to make people look bad.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:07:25
content:
  I can't tell what's genuine or not from them, I can't tell when they're actually trying to be helpful, or raise a point, or if they're just trying to make someone look like a fool or piss them off


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:08:51
content:
  The conversation was going normal and I was interested in hearing what they have to say but then they started in on me. I had no idea that the token itself is formatted AS a JSON file, which makes sense now. That answers part of my damn question, but no, they have to puff up their chest and call me ignorant.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:09:39
content:
  If crypto tokens really ARE a good idea for Neos then I want them to succeed, but I wanna ask questions about it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:10:54
content:
  "Hey, I think you have some fundamental misunderstandings about how these technologies work. It might change the way you think about it if you knew X X and X"


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:11:26
content:
  That's why I give them no more time than I'm willing to care about. They'll do whatever they must to fulfill their desired outcome.
  And for the record, a title of programmer isn't needed to understand JSON. That's like requiring an engineering degree to explain the fundamentals of a shopping list.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:12:48
content:
  It's best to just leave it be. Any discussions here will only be met with dismay. If you prefer intelligent discussions, I'd suggest the discord. That's where the helpful people are.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:15:21
content:
  You'd be surprised, actually. However, given the "leaked" information from the Discord to here, it'd appear like that is the case. As a previous event I shine no more light to, some information is cut off to serve a narrative.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:17:37
content:
  My position on NFTs in Neos is "can I as a creator sell an object as an NFT on whatever the official store would be?" if the answer is no then there's a problem


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:18:06
content:
  Oh my gods I don't care it's not worth it, I just want to talk about Neos and crypto so can we please just get along for five fucking minutes


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:19:40
content:
  Whatever the implementation I imagine it'll step on some toes. I think they should just be something behind the item or in its description that verifies it came from the actual creator's contract. Or maybe loaded in from decentralized storage like an IPFS if it's not so slow


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:20:18
content:
  NFTs have a huge problem in that they may be targeted by the authorities, because the majority (more than 90%) of huge money NFTs have been touched by the same six entities on the blockchain, which might suggest manipulations where six people, or some group of people are working together to dramatically inflate the price.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:20:54
content:
  Regardless of whether or not NFTs are targeted rather than the people, it could cause huge PR issues


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:21:55
content:
  Man, I haven't heard of IPFS in awhile. I'm guessing the real limit is how many gateways there would be, depending on the protocol. I know some offer HTTP, but I'm not sure if there are other ones that dedicate more raw streaming or what have you.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:22:41
edit_date: 2022-07-29 22:25:48
content:
  I dunno, I'm willing to accept that it's a dirty word at this point. But patreons should absolutely get their promised NFTs. I agree maybe they should remove that from the Patreon description, but all prior patreons should be awarded their promised NFTs. That should be non negociable


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:24:55
content:
  the IPFS foundation stores all openseas NFTs on their own node because they believe it's important, I think they do other platforms. And if Neos store offered them I think they'd do that too


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:27:02
edit_date: 2022-07-29 22:27:37
content:
  we're at a point where if someone sees those three letters, some teenager on twitter is going to try to blow it up and slander Neos over it, so I guess I don't entirely disagree with removing it from Patreon reward descriptions for a time until people stop filling their diapers over it


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:31:57
content:
  how easy is it to copybot a neos avatar? I know in VRC you could jack their whole unity package, I doubt EAC will stop that either


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:38:05
edit_date: 2022-07-29 22:38:17
content:
  If someone buys something from the Neos store and it comes with a little nft that acts as proof of an authentic item and also offers -some- future potential of being a cross-platform object (even if just to stimulate the purchaser's imagination) then I think it's only a good thing


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:45:29
content:
  Basically, yeah. It's an open standard by the Khronos group. Virtually any engine supports it, and adding support is fully documented.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:46:29
content:
  going from talking about preserving the uniqueness of items crossplatform vs transferring 3d assets crossplatform


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:46:33
content:
  However, I hope they fixed KTX's file sizes... yes it's cool you can GPU stream directly, but I recall their files always being larger than their compressed counterparts


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:49:36
content:
  to be clear an nft alone wouldn't prevent someone stealing a 3D object, but it'd be a non-forgable way to prove yours is "real" and bought from the actual creator


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:51:34
content:
  tbh I wouldn't mind either. I think it can be made where people can have an ownership experience even if someone's able to go through hoops and copy things


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:54:39
content:
  I'm not totally convinced that NFTs are a necessary piece of the puzzle for that though. I'm also not altogether convinced that they're necessary for cross-platform 'objects.'


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:56:00
content:
  Yes, a good example being the VRM format which is some sort of GLTF with extra spice. 

  We see VRMs in many software right now. I just saw a VRM mod for Raft which had VRChat avatars running around on a raft. That's interoperability.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:56:04
content:
  I'd trust a smart contract platform to manage those certificates more than I'd trust like.. solirax alone is all I can think


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:56:46
content:
  There needs to be some kind of failsafe in the event the network dies, or is replaced, or something like that.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:57:35
edit_date: 2022-07-29 22:58:24
content:
  right, I'd care about that. I dont know why we couldn't just have multiples. and even so all this stuff should be optional from the creator


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 22:59:58
content:
  Crypto as a concept was introduced as a decentralized currency, but it fell into every single pitfall that a decentralized currency falls into until major entities popped up to control the exchanges. It can be useful, but it's never actually going to be fully decentralized. The currency exchange is already regulated in many ways that utilizes multiple centralized entities


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:00:47
content:
  This is all in order to prevent theft, scams, to prove who actually owns things. Even the freezing of assets.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:02:29
content:
  If it's going to be useful as a currency, exchange of monetary value, or it's used to trade goods in any way, it will eventually need all of these things. They aren't things that people just agreed on over night, it's all stuff that emerged naturally the same way it did with "physical" money


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:05:42
edit_date: 2022-07-29 23:06:07
content:
  I dont want us to get into a conversation that's prolly been hashed out like a hundred times already on the bitcointalk forums in 2010


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:08:28
edit_date: 2022-07-29 23:08:51
content:
  Centralized organizations/authorities that monitor and regulate exchanges in order to prevent scams, theft, and illicit activity. Crypto money had a problem with 'painting the tape' for instance, which was one driving force for regulation emerging.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:10:36
content:
  if your adhd is causing you this much strife maybe telegram isnt for you (full disclosure i also have adhd so idk why this is being used as an excuse in this circumstance)


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:11:49
content:
  Do you remember when I mentioned that  =< 90% of NFTs were touched by the same six addresses? This is an example of this activity.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:14:14
content:
  I don't see NFTs being particularly useful for large metaverse objects at the moment. Assuming we standardize an object description language, then they could be a bit more useful, but really only as a form of cloud backup (assuming the assets are stored on ipfs and not just linked directly to the azure store). The very mechanisms that would make this system useful in the context of a metaverse space means they are kinda useless as a form of asset protection even though i see that supposed use touted a lot. I like the idea of interoperability, though this could be achieved in ways that don't require smart contracts.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:17:14
content:
  yup. It's like torrents, except instead of holding the whole files, you just agree to set aside space for bits of the packages


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:19:29
content:
  yeah, there is some redundancy built in. the best way i can describe it is you have like a web cache of things you have viewed, and you serve those same files when someone new needs one. in addition to that you can 'pin' a particular file to make sure it is always available from a particular computer when people go looking for it.


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:20:59
content:
  it's not theft prevention, it's authentication. It doesn't solve the analogue hole problem, but it can make an object have an authentication that can't be forged


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:21:32
edit_date: 2022-07-29 23:23:52
content:
  multiple things can do that but nothing else can really do it in a decentralized manner... that's why it's relevant or rather relevant to all the theoretical hopes of cross platform stuff


type: message
date: 2022-07-29 23:23:27
content:
  Yeah, without a pinning service, self-hosted or otherwise it's not perfect. But it's good enough IMO. We really should just normalize individual data stewardship, but I think that ship has sailed.


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 00:01:02
content:
  Standardizing an object description is a more fundamental concern to that hope. NFTs provide a distributed ledger and sure could be used as a record of receipt, but so could a PDF. I don't personally care so much about proving ownership that I'd be on board with grafting Ethereum, PoS or otherwise, onto every metaverse browser. I don't really see a way to weave that into the fabric of the metaverse that doesn't reinforce classism. An open and indelible record of your transactions would make it incredibly easy to discriminate based on purchasing power.

  This is why I favor MIT's SOLID ptoject. You can verify snippets of personal data to authorized parties. Hell, we could use good old PKI signatures to verify purchases trivially in a way that would at least make it more difficult to get a full purchasing history of a given individual. We can tackle this in a decentralized manor with other tools.


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 02:52:43
content:
  I have no idea wtf you're talking about with haves and havenots and saying you can do this with a PDF but it's clearly not what we were talking about earlier


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 02:54:04
edit_date: 2022-07-30 02:54:46
content:
  like it was said before when Prime popped in it's like conflating two different things while understanding neither


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 04:25:16
edit_date: 2022-07-30 05:05:50
content:
  This is just the consequence of linking someone's identity indelibly to their purchases. A PDF can serve as a receipt, an NFT can serve as a receipt. To me the bonuses that come with an NFT are moot because we can solve the problems it solves without indelibly linking someone with their purchases. There are already well treaded methods to do so.


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 05:53:00
edit_date: 2022-07-30 05:53:18
content:
  This... doesn't solve the same problems. It's like you thought you should shoehorn some legitimate data privacy concerns into talks about unique digital ownership just to have SOMETHING. ANYTHING. to push back against people talking about a blockchain use case. Thankfully there's plenty of tech projects that can be blargh'd at someone to sound smart but that aren't really related like GNU taler, merkletrees, json web tokens, now Solid, to try to dab on people while not really being smart enough to realize whatever the flavor is this time isn't decentralized, trustless and permissionless and why having all 3 is needed. But you might be able to fool some people and hey, that's what most of you are here to do.


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 06:15:07
content:
  NFTs are just actually bad my dude :P They bring nothing to the table to offset the frankly dystopian levels privacy erasure and classism at the cornerstone of their appeal. We can verify authenticity with any number of cryptographic hashing and signature checks, why would we use an NFT? Seriously. I have killed the sacred cow of digital ownership and a pdf receipt is just fine to me. But even if you hold that dear, what do NFTs give you that a PKI signature and ipfs do not? Why on earth would we want to involve a massive public log of our transactions when we can just verify a chain of trust on a per 'transaction' basis?


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 06:25:04
content:
  I don't care really as much about NFTs as I do pointing out to you that all the shit you're pushing doesn't serve the same function. Fundamentally. And also to point out that private NFT ownership is possible, and I dont know it might be being done now


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 06:27:05
content:
  as for all this appeal about classism... I dont know what knot you've tied your brain into to think it has anything to do with digital purchases. Like I can have a goddamn fortnite skin than you don't and am I going to start going "fucking NFTs this is CLASSISM" how is this any different?


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 06:27:32
content:
  I once made 15 bnb with @BigDaySignals I know its not insane but I 24x which is pretty wild to me. Could we get them to call our project?


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 06:28:56
content:
  I rail against fortnight skins too, but I feel it would be preaching to the choir. But as we're here, seriously the toxic dynamic that fortnight is instilling in kids to literally just binge crass consumerism on top of the back of peer bullying and fomo is disgusting.


type: message
date: 2022-07-30 06:31:10
content:
  Fine I wouldn't disagree but it's already happening. Like most gwme studios are hiring actual psychologists to find out how to sell things to people and waste peak amounts of their time already


