CEO state devs will not be rehire

yep. proper agreement isnt coming for years

lets see

I ask for news on new devs but CEO is silent

Ceo already say no rehire to devs!

If no rehire where are new devs!

neos isnt going anywhere without Froox

for now

but Froox is going for other projects... yeah!

CEO already say they no longer working together

They are already doing their jobs. The services are still up. Support continues to be offered to those who use the platform. Critical security bugs are being patched. The organization, which is at this point entirely volunteer run, continues to provide for its users. It will continue to do that. The specific solidarity is obvious. Their jobs never were to do whatever Karel said, and now, they are taking steps to continue to do their jobs without Karel getting in the way.

wasnt saying anything related to Karel

calm down..

bug patch is done? didnt know

good then!

There have been multiple bug fix releases since the start of the work stoppage to address high impact issues for the current userbase (you can find this in the dev log channel). There were also patches pushed to help support community events (such as the MMC and community conventions). I expect we will see other such efforts coinciding with the upcoming Neos Festa 4 as they run into the inevitable requirements for consideration.

thanks

ok.. maintaing services is always good to hear

user counts keep declining, hope this isnt trend decline

I'm also queer. Don't forget the insidious effects of the gay agenda on my ability for rational and independent thought. 🙄

"I am unimpressed by your inability to provide meaningful criticism and find your recourse to out group signifiers tiresome." Sorry, I know analogy can be a hard thing to process.

It's so much of a joke, that when bHaptics finally released their video from a sponsored event they held last year, they don't even link to it.

Neos would be fine without fur. At that time, Neos will be more developed than Meta (Facebook), VrChat

eh... Meta, maybe, but it's hard to compare with VRC. The scope between the two are too different, even though its popularity shouldn't be ignored

neos will have thousands of communities around the world. Fur hindered this. This is crazy

...hate to break it to ya, but uh...
Well, most of the stuff was made by furries, and most systems have been as well.
Even then, one demographic doesn't really cause a direct hindrance, because if that was the case, VRC would be kind of fucked in that regard.

Your rhetorical laziness is not a nuanced argument. You may have nuanced arguments, however 'lol self-important groupthink' is not that :P

not to mention, going back to a statement that might as well be on a 90s YakBak: "If everyone who is SOOOO invested into Neos actually signed in, even maybe half of the people here... the usercount would actually be near its highest point for the first time in awhile."

Aah back to trolling in here?

sadly so...

ahuh... like most of your emote responses

next

The Normies are definitly leaving this telegram group in about a day or an hour after seeing those conversations

try me

If they even have Telegram at all..

Unmoderated hellscape that it is. I am sorely upset that this is how any part of Neos decides to represent itself.

not to mention, most normal people don't care about the financial systems, let alone speculation of it. That's why if you are going to compare to VRC, maybe ask around the people who are on it... or just check its developer messages on the subject.

that isn't to say the current system, again, is doomed to full failure, but one detraction of people staying, assuming a download from the website, is usually the discovery of how the system works and interest being lost heavily, particularly if they came from VRC to see how things worked

well... that and a tutorial focused on creator systems, and not about... actually using the platform

It doesn't reflect well on Karel and Andrea to create this and then basically abandon it without a word.

Ironically lack of clear communication has been an issue with every part of the Neos team for years, it's like some sort of curse at this point.

We could benefit signifigently from an experienced pr and community management consultation, definitely. Without getting plugged in on twitter or discord it's hard to even know there are community events going on.

can't really speak on their behalf, but the primary goal of a mentor is to... provide volunteered support? Being a spokesperson isn't exactly part of that.

A major solution, for example, would just have the tutorial have a dynamic poster that checks if an image exists on the website storage (or text file with content). Then, if present, use that data to present the poster for an event going on. This way, new users can get direct information about something going on, without having to re-submit a world update every time.

Such dynamic item could even be made an essential item, so that world builders or just regular users can get this information and place it within their worldscapes. No additional work needed.

It is, though we do organize and hold workshop events, which we do announce in advance. However, those announcements require you to be plugged in on discord or twitter. I view this as a failure of the main website TBH, and I'd like to see an in-game solution for communicating events.

So in other words, you are against creating self-managing concepts so that you can let a system work for you?

at least I'm making an attempt to constructive ideas that can lead to something productive

ahuh... so in short, when I give a small explanation on an idea, showing it is actually possible and could function, something that this group chat often tends to lack, it's somehow an issue, one of which you have to point out.

One of the things I really like in VRchat is their curation of worlds by seasonal theme. Their seasonal contests get top billing right in the in-game UI. We have that in a limited sense with the MMC tab, but I'd really like to see that done in a more dynamic way that could increase discoverability.

Hmm... could world spheres' destinations be adjusted via logix? If so, a basic arrangement system could be made to allow easier adjustment without having to do direct resubmission. I only bring up the 'systematic' solutions simply because of how long some updates tend to take, so having an easier "let the system" do it approach would be just a starting point, but also with less excuses involved

Yeah, they are just URIs. Wd could build something like this, but it would require everyone go and use it. Things that aren't built into the client are always going to have an uptake hurdle and prevent smooth first experiences.

I can, in fact, give a new user a bunch of public folders of curated collections, but that doesn't help the people who aren't given that, nor the ones who prefer to explore on their own.

hmm... yeah, thinking about it, the bHaptics event would have been smoother if it had its own tab thing or whatever. If the client could be made to support it, it'd be nice to have like a dedicated 'events' tab, not specifically on worlds, but its own thing. This way, you can adjust the content on it akin to how the facets work, creating almost like a webpage of sorts that can be customized just for the event.

actually, my previous boss did bring this to light, funnily enough

it was in regards to a discussion of accessibility functions within VR, started from a petition request to have Meta include information when a game has captions or other accessibility options available, some of which Steam already talks about.

That's when things like the mute helper, one handed controls, and the like came into discussion with Neos. However, when asked where were they, I realized the Wiki itself doesn't have a dedicated space for such, so there was no link to pass along, only explainations

Yeah, that's not an optimal situation.

yeah.... especially when I found out thgat my boss, after the High Fidelity VR venture, landed a job with Owlchemy Labs as an Accessibility Product Manager. I was very impressed.

Awesome :)

I would like to see an accessibility pass sooner than later. I'll tackle a wiki write up for the mute helper later today, even if it doesn't solve the discoverability issue entirely it's an official enough tool that i figure it should have one >.>

a big one that was previously absent on VRC even, until the last update, is still no vignette option for people who suffer from motionsickness. I know a handful of people who have avoided Neos and VRC in VR because of it, and only went to the latter because of its inclusion

I have a working prototype, but such a thing should honestly be built into Neos itself

@FlameSoulis https://wiki.neos.com/Mute_Helper how's that?

Very well done. Something everyone could aspire to

None

None

better name would be advisory board, I guess

It's that board meeting, that is no longer happening, where Frooxius and Karel, the team discussed the progress and future and those invited were in the role of advisors at most

Doesn't LinkedIn allow you to just put more or less anything on the profile or do some companies require validation when someone attempts to make a reference?

These are very interesting news

Not good news

what in the goddamn

This news need answers by CEO and COO

Cancelled cancelled cancelled cancelled!!!!!!!!!!

SOMEONE DO SOMETHING!!!

If board director is Nazi these will cause holders to sell

I ask for more information. Holder needs more information before whales sell

exposed

...so that's why my phone was pretending to be a 90s pager... that was a long read.

for the news?

kay

oh kay

Man that was a confusing conversation to follow. :P

oh kay

too bad most of us already knew all of that, so it wasn't really new information

no new news. Sad.

oh kay

Who did they dox?

Tizzy

If previous information is to be believed, they're now on the Board of Directors, due to an updated linked in. Along with an entire twitter thread of usual information that mostly everyone who knows what is going on was aware of, just brought out to the public

but eh... I'd say I care, but most of the situation is a joke anyway.

kay

says the person who follows everyone's f-list

wasn't it you who was keeping tabs on people's information and what not? This chat is too much of a revolving door to keep pace on everything

oh well, most be someone else. back to work

You are remembering correctly.

ah... okay

The devs are upset that I disagreed with removing the CEO and co-founder of Neos and they'll do anything to try and paint me as a bad person for that - including all of the typical character assassination tropes like being called a Nazi.

I am!

We should all just get along ❤️

Everybody has been on edge with the uncertainty of what's happening and that's understandable.

But I don't think we need to be attacking others.

Both sides are guilty of it.

At some point we'll know what's going on with Neos and then we can move forward accordingly, but in the meantime let's not call people names!

None

None

You've been using the language of the alt-right in just about every one of your diatribes as of recent. I am frankly unsurprised this happened, and unsurprised you are attempting to pin it on 'the devs'. 🙄

You have an image problem. Turning that around is going to be hard, you have a lot of work to do and you're going to have to deprogram yourself from your conspiracy mindset to even begin it.

I wish you luck.

I hope you have a lovely day Irick 😊

You too Tizzy.

Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll definitely take that into consideration! 🥰

This is ironically the most fascist thing I have seen in here. "Incorrect believes" Something tells me most of you have zero clue what fascism actually is and are using it as a boogy man in some disgusting attempt to..I don't know? Feel righteous?

People that accuse people of randomly being alt right based on nothing are the worst kind of people. 1. You're actually downplaying the very real danger and very real problem of white supremacy and fascism. And basically crying wolf because someone hurt your feelings over the fact that into a fandom that is essentially a glorified chuckee cheese cosplay. 2. Just because someone mocks you, hurts your feelings or makes you feel bad doesn't make them a fascist or a Nazi. As someone who has spent the better part of a decade working with organizations like the IDF as a volunteer and associates non-profit watchdog groups that deal white supremacy and fascist radicalization on the internet, I can thoroughly say this entire debate I have seen no fascist rhetoric or alt-speak. And honestly sources that really amount to nothing more than hearsay,

you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

As someone who pretty much does not have a large extended family because of the actions of ACTUAL FASCISTs. This behavior disgusts me

No one is trolling you, calm down. And no you shopuld all be very upset with someone being doxxed even if you don't like them

None

It's not my fault the point went over your head, that sounds like a personal problem.

Stay classy

Are you implying that I said that or contacted you in DM's? because I sure has hell did not, and if you falsly accuse me of that we can make it an actual legal matter. And move forward with it. Otherwise don't play that game with me.

Ok, then.

Well I had to speak up because people in here will literally take that as me doing in in the context

Okay gang let’s take it down a notch. We’ve all been pretty fired up and said a lot of inflammatory things myself included, but in the end it’s not really going to solve anything. I think it’s pretty clear that both sides have a very different idea of what Neos should be and it’s okay to agree to disagree. We’ll have answers one day and then we can figure things out from there.

Obviously we don't because it was a non-issue, but if someone were to do doxx me or make false accusations you better believe its going to full legal battle. I don't tolerate the secondlife drama stuff.

I honestly don't care about the person that reached out to you, and was not even talking about that.

Way to make what I said about you

No one does?

These situations are confusion

If it is confusing, jsut hand wave it away, because chances are its something absolutely stupid and illagoical anyway

Many situations in crypto not like this coin

Nazi and fur

I’m pretty open about my real life identity so some random Twitter account pasting my page-1 google results and chat logs from a public telegram doesn’t bug me. I’ve had to deal with the worst that 4chan and kiwifarms have to offer with legitimate death threats in the past so somebody pasting my LinkedIn isn’t a big deal. Kind of a weird thing to do but nobody cares judging by the lack of engagement with those posts. 🙂

4chan was NEVER a nice place

???????

Wow.

🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨

Imagine admitting you intentionally go to this website

I went there once vomited and noped the hell out

where do you think young white men get radicallized in to shooting up a black church? and 8chan is infamous for having child porn and zoophile boards. And was birthed out of "gamergate" when it was banned from 4chan. Like its literally a cesspool

Qanon too

I wouldn't go near that site unless I was on a secure VPN and actively doing work for a watchdog agency

4chan was edgey teen funny in like 2007 with all the Scientology trolling

8chan legit puts you on a watch list.

Remember that revelation is why Edward Snoden was exiled for

The internet was a mistake

qqq

We don't agree on much, but yeah, avoid 8chan. It is not a place of honor.

Karel 2 weeks since last online???? Holder need news. Anything!!! We have Nazi and furry now. Website and whitepaper did not raise price and all roadmap is abandon.

Still wednesday meetings with CTO??? Coin dead???

Jesus christ we DONT have Nazi's

We have attack of Nazi??? If no Nazis then we need update. Twitter group fudding team

You know what, its too early in the morning for this. I'm out

weird. My junk server I slapped together had about 7 users and no one had any issues, and that was using a dual core and only 8GB of ram, and it wasn't even DDR4

so 2 more users and suddenly kaboom? I mean, at 7 you'd have some kind of issues before that point

no, it does, but I think you are exaggerating a bit. Half the people there had GTX970s (the "nvidia loves us" editions), and everyone was fine

if that's the case, pretty much the other social VR platforms are in equal hot water once you begin the approach to double digits in user count. That's just the case of user content often not being optimized

well, admitively, VRC does handle higher user counts better. Was at a 50 user world party and that's when things got really bad, and I can't even begin to think on how Neos would handle that without culling support

but when the user count is around 10 or so, the performance dip isn't as bad. Both sides will always boil down to the content in the scene, both the world and avatars, and most of the time, the avatars are the issue.

Saying that as something who uses both a Valve Index and a Quest, both PC linked and standalone native

I agree VRC has some benefits, but Neos is also the only place where I had 144hz actually work. Part of it was due to older VRC builds not taking full advantage of multi-threaded operations, and admittedly, when Neos had people pulling out Logix chains, that made performance melt.

that being said, if one were to consider where to host larger user counts in a single world, I won't even pretend Neos can compete

however, the scale of which performance does dip is only steeper to a point for Neos earlier than VRC, but for certain usercounts, like under 10, I haven't had much of an issue, nor have others I know. We mostly wear optimized avatars, so that's a possibility

I guess it depends on the system as well. My server was running Ubuntu 20.04, so maybe the lower OS overhead helped out a bit, despite the Linux operating of a headless server sometimes being janky

Despite how many younger people spin up their own Minecraft servers, I will agree that for Neos, headless operation isn't ideal for mass users, even if partnerships with hosting companies was made to help make them easier to spin up

(this was attempted with HiFi in partnership with Digital Ocean, but one can argue it wasn't supported very well and by that point, I was no longer onboard so the support team didnt' have their server guru anymore)

There was/is definite stockholm syndrome going on with performance on Neos. People will claim performance is "fine" for them, I'll check their FPS and they'll be at like 23fps. It's absurd.

I'd normally agree, but whereever I want, people saw my previously terrible performance numbers and they were in the 20s or even 10s. However, some tweaking has made it so I can usually have about 30 FPS in a room with 15 or so users, assuming again that people aren't wearing an internal server within their own avatar

if that's the case, then VRChat is just as bad of a shithole, because while Neos is up and down, VRC is consistent, and that number for me has never been a good one

That being said, I am restrictedin my avatar, because when I finish whatever I am working on, I then have to make a Quest rendition, at least back when I was on VRC

so yes: avatar restrictions being a thing, while not ideal, is also a requirement if you have a Quest. Even though I mostly use my Index, I won't try to pretend that other people don't use the Meta owned headset, so having my avatar fall back to a stick of butter is rather unfair to them

I get 120fps a lot of the time in VRC, typically 60 with a dozen or more people. It only drops down to 40fps in worst case scenarios and never less (and that's on Ultra with 4x MSAA and 200% Index res). It's rare that I'm able to get above 40fps in Neos, even in an empty world I cannot hit 120fps, ever.

I have never gotten 120 FPS in VRChat unless in desktop mode, but if that's the case, then Neos gets it all the time in desktop mode.

But you can hide avatars in VRC

Also VRC gives you performance rank information and detail breakdown

Neos does nothing

agreed. IN fact, I dare say, however, that both are guilty of having different performance issues

This is such a painfully bad false equivalency.

Which you don't need to do, normally I don't need to hide anyone, on rare occasions where there's 50 people in a room, I may hide one or two.

Then stop hanging out with such inconsiderate assholes

Call them out

VRC doesn't give to shits on the texture sizes you use, only that you don't use too many materials or drawcalls. The fact that if I set my avatar size limit to 100MB means that more than half the room won't even load. I may have a decent connection, but there is no good excuse I've seen from anyone as to why I need to download 300MB for their snowflake avatar

But it DOES let you set a cap, so..

You need to call these people out. People shouldn't have DPS on their normal avatars.

HOWEVER, Neos has a restraint on this via inventory limit. If you want to use 4k textures for everything, you can, but you will run out of space quickly. For a normal user, 1GB of space will be eaten up quick if you do that. In some regards, you have to become optimized in keeping file sizes lower, and thus help with loading times.

You think you're critiquing VRChat, but in reality you're just pointing out that your friends are basically assholes. That's on them.

at least Neos had the accessibility options. While the current release of VRC did add quite a decent amount, don't pretend they weren't available. Even then, some like text chat for mute users is still not a thing on VRC NATIVELY

Because they don't want people doing it. It's VRChat, for talking. They're against mutes, as are a lot of people, especially as it's often a case of people just being weird or awkward, making everyone else deal with their inability to just *fucking talk*.

I argued with Philip Rosedale about this, and and I'll slam down with you if I have to: yes, having people speak and use their voice in a VR system is very critical, especially because doing any form of typing is still not ideal for a VR user. However, don't pretend that when sending information, voice doesn't work for everything and for some users, especially those physically unable to or too socially uninclined to speak, it doesn't work

"Not wanting to" just reinforces hugbox scenarios, it's very much a scenario where they need to "man up" and just talk. For people who are *genuinely* disabled then they have my sympathy, but they are a microscopic amount of the actual claimed "mutes".

not to mention, a keyboard is a required tool to operate a PC. I just had my meeting at work and my microphone wasn't cooperating. I got it working, but if we had no text system, I wouldn't be able to relay "one second, fixing my mic"

okay then

I'd agree with you if these people were genuinely disabled, but they're not, they're just making everyone else deal with their inability to handle basic human interaction. They need to get help, not be on a social VR game.

I disagree. The mute systems require everyone else to change how they use the program. I now need to start paying attention to floating boxes above people's heads all the time rather than paying attention to what I was trying to do and it's incredibly distracting and completely breaks the social flow.

Heh.... mods, or namely lack there of... sorry for the trouble you are about to endure...

Promptly go fuck yourself. A family friend wasn't able to speak for a month due to medical complications. It's pretty hard to speak when you have an air tube down your fucking throat.

My cousin, who just had their honeymoon, goes around and had a complete blast with playing my VR games on my Quest. They were able to move around and do all sorts of things. Because in reality, they don't have any legs. They haven't since they were 2.

My late aunt couldn't move around due to constant calcium deposits building up everywhere, and she was jaw dropped on simple things like Google Earth and being able to see her older home from above.

I usually odn't, and I also don't care. I or anyone shouldn't have to even argue this. It's not exactly fucking rocket science

"I'd agree with you if these people were genuinely disabled" Ability to read helps.

I'm not talking about actually physically mute people.

Take two platforms that are 100% identical. no performance differences, no sign in differences, more or less, they run and act the same.

One just works as advertised.
The other has simple things like one handed control options, anti-motion sickness systems, rebinding, and at the very least, a Text to Speech system.

Again, both platforms work completely the same.

with toggles in the settings menu...

actually, it has its own sub menu now if I recall. They added tabs

It... does. No text chat, but they did expand heavily on accessibility options

Well... vignette mode is one. I think there's also a one handed control profile you can activate by default rather than having to open the menu in the other hand. I'll boot it up quickly and take alook.

ah okay. Wouldn't change much since I have reports to submit before I have to head home anyway

Does Neos support alternate input methods or single VR controllers?

(*natively*)

On their own? Pretty sure they don't work, I know touchscreen is completely unusable.

It works as a mouse replacement (sort of, not completely), but that's all

Even multi touch

So you can use Neos normally, using only a touchscreen and nothing else?

Well its still a touchscreen, but yes it works

How do you move?

Touchscreen toggles

joystick and arrows I think

And they were able to host a world with 6 or 8 people on a phone too.
They were all headset avatars and phone or quest users, but it works

Odd. We couldn't get more than 2 people in a world with Quest 2. Whenever the next person joined, the other person would crash out.

xLinka knows a lot about it, as he is experimenting a lot with the phones and quest builds

Did they load their avatars?

that's.... strange. It's been awhile since I tried it, but I was using a Quest 1, and I was able to join one world that had some people in it that I can recall, and while it was buggy, it did function.

We used head and hands to avoid avatar issues.

(or default headset)

...actually, odd question: how many materials DOES the default headset use?

A lot, it's a bit shit unfortunately.

It's like 15 materials

dear god....

Well... old or new default headset?

It's still additional draw calls though, which is the main issue.

How is he currently killing it?

Isn't he the only one not on strike?

Though he has now disappeared entirely

RIght, voluntarily don't want to publish any work. So if the platform is dying due to lack of updates, interaction from the team etc then remember that that's *entirely* voluntary from their side.

"Leaving stuff to stagnate" - This applies to the devs, surely?

And I don't think public opinion of Karel is changing at all. The people that hated him before still hate him now. Neos' userbase is tiny and it's literally just the same crowd of people talking to themselves now.

He got banned
(apparently by Karel)

I think it's important to remember that there are people who still whole-heartedly support Karel and Andrea. Karel has always been a foundational part of Neos and looking back at his videos discussing the Metaverse on YouTube, you can see that he was equally as passionate about creating something amazing. Frooxius architected the software and Karel architected the business, funding, marketing, and was also instrumental in steering the direction of Neos as a product.

Frooxius has stated multiple times in the past that the business wouldn't have survived without Karel and there were times when they would have folded without his intervention and business savvy.

yep... just to ban him apparently for questioning stuff.. while more problematic people stay.

Yes, but that's all in the past. I don't get the feeling at this present time that Karel regards the business, platforms, or users in the same way he once did.

And as far as I know is not responding to business mails?

How do you know that btw?

Makes sense.

So what's with Karel now being MIA?

The Discord contingent also banned me and deleted years worth of meaningful chatlog history discussing the platform. Tout est juste dans l'amour et la guerre.

Kulza talked about in in discord

Given that they're trying to ride the moral high-horse here, what was their justification?

Nobody bothered to let me know.

Anyway, water under the bridge and I don't mind. Just thought I'd point out that it's happening on both sides.

It was a meme of the Will Smith / Chris Rock debacle which was in the news at the time.

Why user state CEO and CTO work together still?

CEO in statement say CEO and CTO no longer will work

I don't think anyone's saying that at this point. The 8 month strike is proof of that.

This is stupid hyperbole, it was a meme. The users in the official discord spit constant vitriol which is far worse and no-one seems to have an issue with that.

Bruh... there may be memes involved, but depicting direct harm against a known individual, namely one involved with this entire mess... yes, both sides have made their funny pictures, but then that came out and no one was laughing

in otherwords, it was a badly attempted meme, and even then, it was based on something in bad taste

I thought it was hilarious

As did the several people I showed it to

Just because you didn't find it funny, doesn't mean that other's didnt

and everyone I showed it to, even people who don't like Neos, had a serious "WTF" response.

That's mostly because many of the people left on Neos at this point are borderline cult status

"even people who don't like Neos"

I highly doubt that anyone that doesn't like Neos would have cared at all

Not to call your claim into question

even then, the fact it's based on something that was still rather controversial at the time... it wasn't in good taste.

The whole point of memes is for them to be topical

I didn't like it, but I don't think it was on its own ban worthy. It just made no sense.

And after 8 months of nothing happening, a lot of people just don't give a fuck anymore.

Calling Karel a scammer, a fraud, an abuser, and other disparaging descriptors was also in bad taste and a good amount of the Discord community was participating in that. Both sides are equally as complicit in contributing to the toxicity because we've all been very fired up and emotional over the future of Neos. My overarching point is that we need to all step back and realize there's nothing any of us can do right now and being at each others throats isn't going to solve anything.

Be that true, unarguably, Neos is losing concurrent users. With all the Patron backers, users on Discord (which is in the thousands), and the ~360 users in this Telegram, even with timezones involved, there should be far more users online, especially in the past.
But, at no point has the online user count honestly spiked, and this was before the controversy.

I think there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding the future of the platform and people are having a hard time justifying the time investment, especially creators like GearBell who just publicly opted out and moved back to VRChat because there was no longer an audience for her creations.

Back before, I recalled hearing about some partnerships going on and several big moments that Neos could have had. The bHaptics event was seriously a lot of fun, even if it was rather badly managed. It created a unique experience for people to try that showed off immersive hardware that, while expensive, a general consumer could actually buy.
Their video just got released a few days ago, and it has little engagement.

The past 8 months of stagnation have been an incredibly damaging opportunity cost but the good news is that it can only get better from here, and hopefully if and when things do move forward - partnerships like that can be re-explored.

Heck, the HTC release of their mouth tracker should have been a massive moment for Neos but.... well...
It was met with "Can VRC please add support?" rather than "Oh, there is a platform that actually supports it natively."
And this was in early 2021, and people were still weary, yet liked the device and idea.

Issue is that Neos's reputation was already low, and it's been an uphill battle from the beginning. The past months of nothing isn't a standstill; it's rolling backwards even faster, and everyone knows this.

Even if the devs aren't doing anything, there are people obviously still watching, and some even still jumping in and doing things. There have been many discussions on Neos's issues and some ideas on how to improve it. Some concepts could even be done right now with Logix, and act as a base concept for a fully supported feature.

Neos has a very real opportunity to bridge the gap between Second Life and VRChat, and seeing the current state of things is completely tragic. After exploring every other social VR platform that exists it's arguably the most powerful Metaverse ever created yet we have double digit user concurrency.

There is no bridging SL and VRC. It was tried, and from that experience, many SL users are too directly tied to their original purchases of assets, which cannot leave the platform. It's a different demographic and wholey different market.
Philip tried it already once, and in all the meetings that were done, it was agreed that the inability to carry over their virtual identity, even if the platform offered better improvements, was a showstopper.

Most of the feedback that I received from VRChat users was related to a lack of intuitive UI and being unable to connect with social groups that interested them. The truth is that Neos has been very creator-focused and just hasn't been ready for end-users which I think has significantly impacted the concurrency numbers and growth. The 2022 roadmap focused on some of these issues including a re-tooling of the graphics engine by Geenz which was meant to ultimately put Neos on mobile VR devices. Unfortunately none of that ever happened and what we have now is what we had in November of 2021.

I meant on more of a technical level, a'la being able to create in the world space vs an external IDE. I don't think the Second Life demographic itself will ever translate 1:1 especially into VR as the numbers have shown that the 35+ crowd just isn't adopting it in the same way that Gen Z and young Gen Y are.

I recently chatted with Philip about VR HMD adoption and he also said that headsets just aren't connecting with the female demographic. Second Life's user demo is spread very evenly across the gender spectrum which I think makes it a lot more accessible. I think having a strong desktop client is equally as important as having a VR client because it increases their ability to onboard new users and also appeal to developers who are accustomed to a desktop workflow.

well... not just with demographic concerns, but rather size, weight, and internal functionality for HMDs. His post about it is still public, but it also came at a weird time because not too long before, a major event was held and it didn't meet expectations and the shutdown of the project came shortly after.
That being said, it did raise critical points, some of which not many platforms have even attempted to resolve, especially with virtual keyboard systems and other technical hurdles.

Those hurdles affect pretty much everyone at that point

Yeah outside of Neos it's just a macro-scale VR issue and it's going to take a company like Valve or Meta creating more accessible HMDs.

That's the key thing here. Neos was fighting an uphill battle. It's now lost time it didn't have, but also it's tarnished it's already poor reputation. I don't really see it recovering from this unless something legitimately incredible happens.

I always found the statement that Neos is "creator focussed" almost ironic given it's incredibly weak tooling. Compared to Unity (and everything that can be used in Unity) it's not even in the same solar system. Neos is *incredibly* basic when it comes to creation tools and utilities, it's like comparing MS Paint to Photoshop. If you're a serious creator and wanted to make something, there's very little reason you'd choose Neos if you were basing it on creation capability.

Not that it'll ever happen, but I think that having a native Unity SDK in conjunction with basic in-world tools could be a major catalyst for encouraging growth and content migration from existing platforms like VRChat.

There's a social VR platform based out of Germany called Chillout VR and it's basically a clone of pre-Udon VRChat. It has hundreds of worlds, and a lot of those are direct uploads of VRChat levels from the original creators.

Neos has a native Unity SDK, but it was left to rot, it's barely functional. It's also only one-way. So it's basically just a glorified uploader, you can't use it to update going forward.

I think in the future if things do work out with Neos, the in-world tools should look and feel more like The Sims than Unity. At the end of the day people want to create spaces and avatars, and the tools should be geared towards making both of those things as accessible as possible to the most amount of users.

Imagine day-1 being able to build a house by dragging walls and clicking a paintbrush to texture them, or just 1-click dropping trees.

And make that collaborative.

Well... but is had around 5-10 active players, the last time I looked.

Yeah Udon unfortunately did them in because porting over SDK2 triggers was a little more straight forward than their proprietary node-based scripting system.

Chillout sold itself as being a "more performant VRC" but over time VRC updated and improved anyway, making most of the reason people were interested in CVR redundant. It basically died even before Udon.

We already have 1 click to drop trees in neos. The same goes with the toolbrush and dragging walls.

Right but they are all user tools that you have to dig through folders after being told by a mentor where to find them and how to use them. The creation tools should be inherently part of the user interface and minimize the amount of clicks and friction between the user and building.

That... sounds less of an internal function and more of a refinement of a mesh generation tools that could be added to Neos so that such a kit could be made. I'm not versed enough in Probuilder, but if an API system was made and a good example system came from it that people can expand on, then I can see that working, but otherwise, people will most likely stick to Blender.

Only the tree tool is a user made tool.

In fact, I would dare say... why not just add a bridge to Blender or Unity? Then you can use the Probuilder controls or Blender's complete functions within a VR space, and there are more explanations and guides for those than something that attempts to mimic it

You already can let Blender do some work in neos.
The cornfield from Tekno is a good example.

I've been building in virtual worlds and Unity for years and Neos was not an easy system to learn. It has a long way to go before having mass-market appeal and having things like the inspector tool as an object in the inventory needs to change.

Okay, that's just cool

https://twitter.com/Tizzers/status/1428171917928800260 Aside from a few mesh prefabs, I built these worlds entirely within Second Life in a few weeks. In Neos something this complex would have been nearly impossible, especially without proper mesh / grid snapping / rotation tools. Something like this should be the very minimum benchmark for what in-world building should look like.

I think that can be partly solved with an edit/build mode that unlocks shortcuts to say the inspector and the usual tool arrangement we're all used to. It could also help new users out by preventing them from accessing dev systems in error, and even then, a simple UI prompt of "You are now in edit mode, where you can adjust the settings of various components and objects." and the use of the "don't show this again" for people who know what they're doing.

heck, I would even say it'd be handy to even have components that hide/show certain things based on if you are in this mode. Yes, Neos 'has' an edit mode, but the most I've seen it do is funky things to Desktop user's offhand.

Yes, Edit mode could be considerably better utilised.

None

...wow, way to assume. They just aren't interested in VR. If I mentioned NCR to them, which I didn't, then it'd make it worse, but it didn't even need that to result in negative feedback.

but whatever.

...so basically, like every other engine and platform?

It is. It takes me exponentially longer to do *anything* than in any way reasonable.

No, not at all.

Thinking like this, that Neos is somehow just like other platforms, is why it won't improve.

It takes disproportionately long amounts of time to do even simple things when world building, sometimes basic actions take *exponentially* longer than they would on anything else due to the lack of even basic, day 1 functionality that you'd expect.

I'm not. When building things within Unity, it's always been a case of 'setup asset and then bring into scene'. Same thing for SL and everything else

You can't even multi-select objects!!

and... I do? As has everyone else?

Too many FUD today

I'm not saying the tools are exactly the most majestic thing in the world (they aren't), but a good majority of what I've been seeing is over exaggeration.
Yes, the tools need a lot of work, and if there was a way to manipulate many objects at once without having to parent them temporarily would be fantastic. However, it doesn't mean they're useless

sure, would it be neat to have say gimble rotations within Neos to make crazy rotations and positioning much easier? Absolutely! Having the ability to copy and paste parameters from components like in Unity? That'd be a time saver.
But I haven't had the tools be a pure hindrance to whatever I need to be done.

Creation tools are pretty far off on the list of things that are hurting retention. We've been down this road before, and everyone is in firm agreement with the UI system being incomplete and in a dire need of a redo, along with readjusting information to assist end-users and not just creators.

Terrible creation tools will absolutely be one of the main reasons for creators not sticking around. Ironically I can socialise in VRC and work in Unity at the same time, where as I can't socialise in Neos and be in one of my other Neos worlds working on it at the same time, which makes it less sociable for me.

...but before the UI layout used in 2.7x, I couldn't even remotely tolerate blender. It was just all over the place.
I can't recall the exact version, but the one I use is 2.79, only because I prefer its interface. I can use 2.8, but it has conflicts with my space navigator, who needs an axis inverted. That, and work I do in 2.79 work fine in 2.8, but not vice versa.
That being said, I can't argue in saying 2.8 looks great and the cycle renderer does a great job.

so? I just like 2.79's look. I mostly use the UI navigation for doing things, not key bindings like in your argument.

but, figures you'd overlook that detail

not really? It's just a UI preference. Next you'll argue Dark mode is a bad developer trope

But whatever.

...okay? So in short, you are against people have preferences in how things work?

welp, time to axe the settings page then

oh well. I am happy with that I deal with and the systems I use. They work for me, good or bad. If improvements come along, that's always welcomed.

ahuh... sure, whatever you want to say

...you mean a public page linked to their twitter handle?

which is... odd... because it wasn't them who brought it up

shame that's how you feel, but oh well.

wow... nice to see how you seem to actually feel about things...

I'm onboard until one of the captains say the ship is to be scuttled. Until the login servers go down, I'm still keeping my eyes open. Not my first rodeo with a dying platform.

What a joke.

why are we complaining so much about Karel not being here? Do we just want someone lording over the discussion or are we looking for stuff to complain about?

Fix ncr

The moment I messaged Andrea about the guy spamming the elon coin, she banned him

now

None

None

Is the risk you're talking about just where there's people in the mentor program with not enough knowledge about Neos, and they might answer questions with misinformation by mistake? Or like potential bad actors in the program intentionally giving misinformation? (or both) And people who are explicitly paid and trained to do the job would be more trustworthy to give correct answers?

Definitely interesting to think about how that could affect a small platform like Neos.

Mentors aren't seen as authoritative figures , they are essentially pre school teachers nothing more

You should be more worried about this from moderators

Yes but only authoritative figures matter. Moderators could do harm, mentors can't really harm company , it's like a player teaching player program, you don't assume authority

They aren't, they have nothing more than user other than icon , their only purpose is teach new player and help event. Otherwise their word only mean same as any other

They have no privilige info like moderation

But also it good to see ncr still strong

Can not be kill

Inappropriate behavior in public is something unwanted in general, doing that to new players will get you removed from mentors if not more depending on severity. But company is not liable for it unless they actively hide and ignore thing like sexually inappropriate conduct, but that apply to mentor and non mentor

Risk to perception exist either way , but with vetted volunteer is less likely to happen

Always have rejected

It's a cartoon of a cartoon character slapping another cartoon character. Get over it

But yeah company would only be liable if negligent and or malicious in this case

Yes but that is separate issue from volunteer

Moderator is more issue because misuse and disclosure of confidential information is massive easy way to destabilize trust in platform

And only moderator have this power not normal user not mentor

Not sure about what QC team knows

But they also volunteers

Karel talking to bad team on twitter

None

They are doing that thing again where they harras Karel and then bitch about him replying to them.

Looks like the village hothead, Geenz, was looking to get some shares of the company at some point.

Geenz wanted more personal gain. He wants to hold shares to control Neos with Frooxius for his fluffy community

Geenz is the leader of the campaign to hate Karel.

Fur always plays the role of the victim

Technically a third party also holds 15%

Maybe Geenz didn't get what he wanted. So he destroyed Neos and oriented his community to what he wanted. He always plays the role of the victim. All his plots are to kick Karel out of Neos. It's obvious that he wants to own Neos more than anyone

he slandered sneers to Karel with his furry friends in Discord. The fur cult seems to enjoy monopoly and possessiveness, cliques, factions...

Karel should just hire dev and ignore team, let them stew

I'm not sure anything Geenz ever did actually made it into live.

None of the colour correction stuff he was working on ever actually got implemented.

I think he put some groundwork in place for it to work later, but it's just internal engine stuff in the background that currently does nothing.

IIRC they scrapped it in favour of switching to a new graphics engine entirely, which in turn also never happened.

There is a working version which looks way better, but did not got implemented due to the current situation.

Yeah, that was back in August last year wasn't it? I still have the CM1/2/3 builds in a folder somewhere.

On a platform that until a few months before he asked for that, was basically volunteer only due to not having any money...

If Geenz was asking for 50k a year for 10 hours a week, I'm not surprised Karel would have refused, Jesus Christ.

It doesn't feel like it adds up. If you were making that much ($200k+ a year, according to that) - would you demand money from a platform which was, at the time, almost entirely volunteers and had little money? (as this was early 2021?)

It was implemented. The idea was to get the color management merged to improve the current unity renderer as the new engine was in progress. An alpha build was distributed to a few build teams in october to test our content in preparation for the switch over.

But... it wasn't implemented? It's in a test build from nearly a year ago, but it's not in live.

Implementation doesn't mean pushed to production.

It does in the context of this conversation.

Color spaces are a requirement for new engine

Currently neos color is garbage because lazy furries

Apologies, I did not notice your non-standard usage.

Finally someone with a brain

🙄

Easy fix hire devs

@RealEnverex If you ever feel I deal with you dishonestly or in bad faith, let me know. I respect your opinion.

It's fine

Karel being way too nice to tomato , just ignore him and get real devs then moon

anyway,,, there will be only 2 person involved financially

its only Karel and Froox who earns or loses money

just let this project go to 0, then the devs will finally go home

maybe after 2 years, devs will get just tired

No, I want to destroy the fur. Extreme fur cults need to be removed from society

I ask this many time with no answer

I hope everyone is having a good day

None

Hello yeener.

The arrival.

Imma hug.

was just getting to cooking. Thought you were always here

aw, clearly someone else isn't happy. Oh well: I have udon noodles

I ignored this place for certain reasons for a while. To be honest, I still see those reasons justified now that I am here.

fully understandable.

Yeah may be on my way out too, this is just kind of a platform for arguements with some actual conversation sometimes thrown in between

more or less the same to some level. The mentality here is...concerning, and usually constructive speak is put down in favor of hypotheticals. It seems the usual talk is less about how to keep current functions operating and fixes to the many concerns talked about and more of just changing everything to be a different scope to side step the need to address the issues

Seeing words like "cult", tossing the idea of plotting an intentional burnout of neos so one side can win, the blatant cluelessness of who would be considered some kind of "ring leader" of one side or another. I'm not seeing anything encouraging here. At all.

eh... not my first rodeo with this situation, unfortunately. The only optimism I have is the servers are running, and even that has pitfalls. It'd be great to see things get resolved, but that requires cooperation from more than just the higher ups, but also the community, and if the vocal majority are to abide by... well, you can observe the number of emoji responses going around and see how that pans out

Watching the unhinged cultists in the Discord spending so much time hating me is absolutely giving me life. They’re pulling out all of the tired SJW playbook tropes like labeling people “N4zi, gr0omer, p3do, etc” in a stereotypical and eye-rolling last hail mary at character assassination because they are getting desperate - and know that they are about to lose this 8 month long temper tantrum. In the end it only further tarnishes the optics of the furry fandom and the Neos project itself.

...except it wasn't the discord... and to our above, we have the usual "it's all them, because of course" example...

anyone can join the discord and anyone can join the telegram. If that's the case, then anyone of any subgroup can be claimed as a representative. Hell, we can even drag the Anonymous argument, in where everyone is Anonymous, or can claim to be, and thus serve as an excellent scapegoat.

but going back down the irony road is something I've even grown tired of walking

Those are some threads I can't wait to stumble across

Them emoji responses tho

It's really weird and not quite something I've seen before, just sort of shows immaturity I suppose.

Oh that's funny, sounds like it only was one single post and everyone they were agree that they didn't want to be involved with it. So because one person joined the discord, then post it that, it suddenly that discord groups fault?

Oh goody, you have an auto responder

I believe that there are some that are willing to talk about things here but this place is not really in a good state

Of course, ban someone who doesn't agree with you, despite having previous experience in other areas.

Not to mention, I've been the most neutral out of most. So go ahead, have fun!

Consider I could say directly reported to Philip Rosedale, I believe I might have a little bit better standing then, I don't know, some random individual who has a extreme fascination with excrement emojis

Again, I did more than that, but whatever. This group is meant for the discussion of Neos , but apparently it's more of "let's get rid of furries because it's ruining the platform"

Considering I was actually working towards something that would have done well, or at least it was perceived to have been, that isn't really all that silly after all

Not to mention, isn't Neos an in the same exact position?

Yet here you are,"" giving advice ", yet you haven't been paid anything.

That, is silly by your own definition

But whatever, I'm still cooking

Well now I know who to basically scroll over and not read anything from...

Maturity goes a long way.

your mom

Besides, I am very true in that I am fairly neutral in this situation. Karel has provided support directly to me when I had a botched transaction. Hearing all the tales of people having problems is something new to me, considering he went well above what was expected to help my problem.

Oh I'm sorry, you don't like it when someone else gives positive remarks?

Wierd, some days ago you guys wanted to ban people for background checking and telling how insane it was

I mean the linkdin entry

^

This place is a circus

yep

Yeah, it's bad.

And currently its calm, compared to other days...

Sadly, there has not been any constructive discussions in this entire group. Whenever they get started, they immediately get derailed

This.

Advice for everyone but zigmund. The greatest argument to present to an idiot is none at all.

Responding to a moron directly only fuels their idiocy.

Hence why I am not presently responding to them, despite they pretending to redirect what I said toward flame soulis arbitrarily.

"hence"

🤓

Which only shows how immature and stupid they are. Especially when resorting to grammar nazi stuff.

Anyway. I think I demonstrated my point to the people who matter.

I mean in the long run, I've been around since before Most people in neos and the crypto community, so...

Just correcting.

Unless you meant this telegram group specifically.

I can't tell, the signals are a little fuzzy.

Something tells me this dude wears sunglasses at night, while indoors

CEO state on twitter that no dev volunteer to be rehire. We need next step plan

When new devs

SOURCE？

Confuse on why there is no moving

https://twitter.com/KarelHulec/status/1538434377172013064

State team is unfit and will not rehire

something will happen soon,right?

Karel

I expect very soon

no need to be too soon,

its crypto winter now

and not likely either

we will survive

Well, if there was any question as to whether things are getting better, I guess that gives a solid "no".

Team needs to be hire before new bull market and be building

of course :)

haha leave the code at the door

quite funny

im gonna volunteer for facebook and blackmail for my right

thats what happens when u dont live the real world

shame.. and a bit pity

make it not easy for you otherwise
== blackmail

that would be good proof later :)

If Geenz really thinks the code is on their hand, why really bother Karel.
they can do everything they want if thats true

He actually knows but wants to hide from reality :(

Makes me think Geenz really is the major bad attitude that escalated all this bullshit

what stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid pointless self-defeating drama

Good thing that Karel is CEO and own all of Neos metaverse

nope.

Its 50/50

CTO and other volunteer can not stop from hiring dev and continue work

CTO and dev are fired

^

Well, 42.5/42.5

It never got officially claimed and still is at 50/50 as far as I know.

It's in the hands of the administration company that took possession of River Venture's assets, AFAIK.

https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/941727532779200593/988507250865897493

Fur takes telegram screenshots and stigmatizes us

Stupid fur animals become hypocrites here

It 50/50 they not have claim share

The team themselves stated that it's not 50/50 because of this, so no.

There 2 shares only

1 karel 1 tomato

Can't do fractional share for this literally impossible to not be 5050

Yeah