Its way more complicated than that. Yes there's nothing stopping outsiders from coming in and pumping the token and making everyone emotional. The reasons were that crypto as an entire category was (unfairly or fairly) a taboo among young people, that everyone wanted to save face for Froox and push the nasty crypto thing off as being SOLELY Karel which is not true... And tbh the Neos devs chose to play into it because they didn't want to be on the unpopular side of the fence. This caused more fighting because it felt like one side was being thrown under the bus. To be fair some members of that side were making stupid suggestions but they were outnumbered like 10 to 1.

it wasn't fair to those people who weren't outsiders abd bought NCR because they ACTUALLY LIKED Neos. Alot of foreign users, alot of Japanese, bought lots of it because they didn't have the same anti-crypto drama western communities do to crypto. Was it fair for them to be dragged into this drama about Karel?

sorry just catching up on the messages now...

Forgive me if I'm mistaken since I'm new, but wasn't the whole blow up because Karel was pushing through big changes that didn't have the approval of others?
If I made something with someone, then later had limited control over its direction, I don't see why I would write code for it any longer either

The situation is complicated, as truth is usually. In my personal opinion, yes, the biggest part of it all was the overexited changes combined with the loss of trust between Karel and Froox.

After there was no more friendship to salvage, the standstill itself had less to do with the inability of anyone to change anything or the limited control, but more so that the company is owned equally by both.

As such every development would be to the advantage of both or better not owned by any one of them alone. As such illogical to actually do it.

I believe it was a small bonfire that was steadily growing over time and that particular thing was what dropped the Molotov cocktail onto the fire

well I'm not saying a blow-up was or wasn't justified. I'm saying the disagreements needlessly CHOSE to pull NCR holders into a fight they didn't want to be a part. Neos devs (all Froox's friends) chose to turn on the holders of NCR with no regard to who they were hurting, using them as bargaining chips in their disagreement with Karel

Neither am I, im saying this was probably built up over time and that last thing made everything fall apart

... and there is Orc that thinks that all about NCR^^

I'll hold my tongue because I don't want to get banned for FUD, but I understand why there would be hostility around that late 2021 period

From what I gather, Karel has always been "CEO" and was in thr background. Most of Froox friends hardly met or knew him. When NCR gained mass value very quickly, Karel started saying what changes would be made, supposedly in a sudden and unexpected way. One of those changes was new hires. Other issues were poorly ran, rushed polls over NCR features that caused some mayhem

A feeling of being 'used'

well both sides felt that. I mean, if someone ignored NCR they wouldn't have noticed, but people online rarely choose the "I'll ignore the thing that doesn't affect or interest me"

its often said that Neos had a mass influx of cryptobros bothing the community, but in reality... Those cryptobros all went to the NCR channel and stayes isolated there. It was furries going into that channel LOOKING to argue.

I guess I don't blame them when for months there had been crypto hate among youths on social media and then they get the chance to finally argue and spar with these hated dicks they'd been hearing about

I see we're back to accusing one small part of our community of things.

Why not just say "lots of users went into that channel looking to argue". It would be more accurate.

and alot of those people were not exactly good at English and many had never met a furry befoe

I'd love to talk about it more but I don't wanna get banned 😅

I using the word furry as a succint word to describe the general type of user

say whatever you want

Succint sounds so weird

you can hate crypto or whatever, you can even hate Karel, many of the ppl here openly do

I think there is not much to it anyway. NCR never had much to do with it, as well as Furrys. The only relation that even exists is that "Furries" where "Furrious" after some incident of Karel talking down and trying to ban some, but in the end even that incidents vanish into nothing. And as far as i remember Karel apologized for that incidents.

succinct

If there were proper rules that were being moderated to, and random bans weren't being handed out left and right, sure

In the end it has nothing much to do with all of that. Crypto kind of caused a bit of a spark because of Resources involved that caused trouble with what Karel see as required to keep the company compliant, but any other kind of money would have caused that too.

Still makes me think of "succulent" like as a plant

I dont know, I havent been around in awhile to see bans. we used to have a good time and be pretty lightly moderated

makes me think of gimme teh succ

And yes, there is cause to worry, because Karel has gone overboard moderating in the last days.

i see

we should have never had moderation

just bot banning

people here were fussing about not enough moderation waaah waah and now they got what they wanted

Orc, really, thats not the problem. Karel banned people for any kind of critic, expecially after the wiki changes. One got a permanent ban neos wide because of a wiki change.
Lots of feelings, lot of bad blood... but again, small fry compared to the problems already existing

I heard about that on wiki, but here in tele?

lots and lots of bans, but its only telegram

the other ban was kind of a different league

The one got their account restored, the other two were not. And tbh after the constant harassment I dont know if I can blame him for taking the opportunity to flatten a few users over whatever

oh, well then I dont know

That's just bad moderation etiquette, if you have too strong feelings and not be able to control them, you shouldn't have access to moderation tools.

Well, in my personal opinion Karel should just add moderators and don't do it himself. It would solve a lot of problems and personal feelings

we've been fine here for years, we dont need banwaves because we disagree with people

Well, thats true, but it happend. Karel feels kind of pushed against a wall because of the many voices against him, ... i guess... i kind of understand it. Still, its an overreaction.

everyones got their back against the wall, we've all been at our throats but we can atleast be civil and honestly discussion always happens here in the end

to come in now this late and start applying bans isnt at all what we've needed

its only been like, afaik, last month Karel has even shown up. now he wants to moderate?

I kind of feel like he was proude of his current/upcoming changes, wiki got reworked in parts, and people are "just negativ"

the whole reason we're here is because we can say stuff without the overmoderation from the discord, and when fools like Prime pop in they can just try to pipe up but cant do anything

But i understand that too because what he did was pretty much deleting a lot of community content

So... both has merrit. I guess feelings got hurt on both sides... again

well karel has been conditioned to see everything he does gets backlash just because its him. we cant ezpect him to take any feedback now.

at best we should ask Andrea to tell him to soften it up

Problem is, that feedback was.. ... mostly... truthful. But yes, he did feel like he got attacked i assume. Its also hard to be objective if you put lots of work in and yea... ...

a good compan needs to take in all feedback, ood or bad,

id like it if he didn't mod and just let us be, and we can assume he has bigger things to do. modding heavier in here wont benefit ncr any. delusional to thibk it would have any impact

My opinion, he should definitly get moderators he trusts/pays. Solves lots of problems.

And prevents such things

we have Andrea right? did that change?

agrreed

we had gundam guy

Well, neos has lots of moderators... had lots of moderators (now inofficial moderators) so i guess 1 is not enough for a 24h moderation

i mean how many mods does this place need? this chat was at its best when we had NO mods

most of neos mods are redundant, all tripping over each other trying to justify themselves

Well, without moderators you get pretty much the situation we are now in, so i disagree

You clearly have no experience in managing communities

Ive been in here before we had any real mods, we were fine

Jae i bet you ask to be a mod in every community youre in

Nope, I build my own communities and platforms from the ground up instead of bitching about any bit of moderation

Orc have you evern been in an moderation position?

yeah way bigger than this group and solo managed it

Then no bitchy, and step up

if you see problem, offer solution

my solution is to ask karel to stop and soften it up, my suggestion is less modding, and if I was a mod I'd basically do nothing but ban racism, sexism, bots, threats etc.

thats the kind of modding we need

not someone acting like theyre community building gurus

Fair enough, I honestly would not object to that as long as there is evidence and that evidence is not *deleted from fekking existance*

that is litterally my main problem with karel's moderation,

they delete shit without chance for recovery,

having a incestuous group of friends in your neos worlds isnt "a community"

whcih has already made many people who wanted to make ban appeals, unable to

ask the discord then, they scrap this chat looking for goodies

I know there are a few people with chat scrape bots, I just dont know *who*

Orc, please, thats exactly WHY Karel got into trouble in the first place. Exactly this kind of looking down on people and obviously defamation/slander

its prolly not done instantly anyway

Something he at least tried to do better...

Dropping money into crypto and liking a game are not equal in the slightest.

The only moderators in this chat are Karel and Andrea

I never claimed to being a "guru" nor have created communities on Neos; in fact, most of them are and were on platforms I made.
For instance, my most popular are Matrix rooms and servers for the ones still existing, in the past forums, related to World of Warcraft private servers.

what happened to the guy with the gundam ava?

?

Nonny

Who are you talking about?

Nonny was a moderator that Karel and Andrea hired for here

They were cool

So what happened?

Never seen em

I dunno, I assume they aren't here anymore

You never saw them talking unless it was moderation related

you used the tense so

Either way, I assume more moderators would only increase the frequency of moderation actions, and when all the current ones are already massively overstepping reasonability, that just doesn't seem like a good idea

You're free to correct me if that's not the case though

Again, depends on the quality of moderation, looking at the moderation team handling in-game matters, they are doing a pretty good job.
The moderation in here tho is sketchy at best now.

I feel like it's also how the moderation systems are used. The neos moderation team logs and scrutinizes every action, but here, it seems like people are banned on a whim

Exactly, there needs to be logs and accountability.
That's something I don't like about Telegram, nothing is shown like if a message is deleted, there's no way of seeing that this message was deleted unless someone replied to it earlier or when a message is edited, no way of seeing history.

Same for bans, no message shown with a reason or something.

I think it would help if all moderation actions were run by other moderators before going through

In theory they could have also completely forgone all these fail-safes themselves, and I feel like that would have led to the same problems we're experiencing here

Checks and balance should be the basis

In the places where I do moderation, it's definitely the case for edge cases or more sensitive decisions and I would assume it's the same for Neos, that stuff is run through multiple people.
Then for more obvious stuff like spam, no need for that.

Would love to see an auto-archive bot, that records history of deletions, joins, leaves, bans, mutes
there probably already is one in this chat, but i've got no clue how to access it.

I have a vague recollection of a GitHub repo with chat logs from here

Dunno if those have deleted messages

Unless Karel goes months back to delete messages regularly

Wouldn't make much sense, there's the auto-expiry timer if you really want to do that

There should probably be more than a single channel if this is the 'official' one now

Bunch of hall monitor types in here

Hello everyone🙂, based on your recent feedback and suggestions regarding clarity of Telegram moderation rules - we have made some minor amendments to the Neos Telegram guidelines https://wiki.neosvr.com/Neos_Telegram

1. We have added a brief explanation of FUD - what constitutes FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) and we strongly discourage such behavior.

2. We have removed 3 warnings rule. The reason being that we have received some complaints of members who were (quite understandably) expecting 3 warnings but in a very fast paced discussions like these, unfortunatelly it is not always possible to adhere to this rule. However we will do our best to always try and adress any issues with some prior warnings and you are always encouraged to message us or email to hello@neos.com if you feel you have been wrongly banned.

As for the request of making topics for this group - I think that is a good idea to consider as it seems to gradually become more and more difficult to navigate in this discussion. However, we need to ensure we can support the logistics first. And we are also looking at making these rules clear for the general content contributions guidance on Wiki - so the situations like we have experienced last week hopefully can be avoided.

You are welcome to react to any of these messages and rule updates of course, just please let's be polite and respectful. I appreciate everyone in this channel who is still able to do that 😁 Thank you.

None

And yes, Nonny was wonderful and he did a lot of amazing work however he had some other commitments which took a preference. We will be looking to onboard the right person with good work ethics soon of course.🙂Someone with a patience of Dalai lama, reflexes of Flash and no need for sleep or eating. Easy task.

AGI won't be here soon enough.

AGI meaning Artificial General Intelligence? Just making sure I'm getting the acronym correct

All in all I'm excited to see the future of Neos and the things I'll be able to do with my NCR :)

I wouldnt say banned on a whim but banned if they dont match others agenda

Section 7.2 on that wiki page is pretty rough

Admin potentially might have trouble distinguishing between FUD and genuine community engagement :/

Do you have the ability to temporarily silence or mute people as admins of this group? If so you could still adhere to 3 warnings in a fast paced discussion, just give them a timeout and throw them an @ and say hey stop you're violating rules.

I think the complaints were more about the fact that they should have been given warnings before bans, not because of a wiki technicality that needed to be fixed but because the three warning rule is a more fair way to handle things

Morning Andrea, thank you for clarifying the rules on FUD, they are very clearly written. However, I am concerned that the users in this channel have been promised information by the CEO numerous times with no delivery on those commitments which could itself fall under the definition of FUD by making forward statements which does not appear to be safe harboured by the rules. Karel has promised to white paper updates, and a release of a product or an update to a product, but so far these commitments have not been followed through with.

Most recently, Karel stated on July 27 that we are days away from a system update, but has not provided any specific timelines, specifics on what the release will include, screenshots, teasers etc. I requested that some information be posted as to the aspects of the release, but nothing has been provided yet.

As long as the 'fud ban' is referred to as a 'fud ban' it isn't a very good moderation rule. Minimize your jargon.

Defining fud doesn't actually fix the problem.

It would be like trying to pass off "Don't be a dick" as a rigorous rule by defining a bundle of dick-like traits. Ultimately it will only work with a group that a) is fine with the casual attitude of moderation and b) comfortably uses the phrase.

All I want is to not be banned for saying something Karel didn't personally like.

Otherwise the clear cultural bias in the rule itself is alienating.

I'd also like to be able to ask questions about uncertainties (the U in FUD) that I have, to get some answer that evoke confidence and clarity. Though this kind of makes me afraid (F) to even ask those questions

Of course ideally we prefer to give warnings, or personally I like the expression of “gentle notifications☺️” .
I just don’t think it needs to be specifically 3, as some sort of magic number that we then have to track 😁.

I think silencing for a period of time is a very good idea too, as you are right, things always seem a little different when we had the time to process and cool off, thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it and I’ll add some note about silencing to the rules☺️👍

Honestly a discord server probably has better tools than telegram

No, I am not saying to use the current one as that one is unofficial, but making an new official one would likely be a good idea as shown by the current discord, not as many people have. Nor want to use Telegram. (an application that requires it to be installed onto your phone in order to be used)

Hi Rucio, thank you and totally I see how you might be frustrated by this delay, honestly it’s just that we need to get things really right and there has been a few glitches that we are still working out.

We have an amazing wizard programmer working on it but I do respect his time and workload if that makes sense. We are very near. Little teaser is a good idea let me see what could be done about it. It’s always a dilemma of how much to save for the “bang” 😁

Once again, thanks for the feedback ☺️

I’m super sorry Thomas that you feel afraid to ask questions now - perhaps it’s not the most encouraging phrasing I agree and so I really want to be explicitly clear that this is not to close down conversation.
(Where would be all the thrill and fun and..cheese?😁)

It’s more to outline what are some instances that are actually quite unhelpful when most of us wish for the NCR and Neos overall to grow and thrive. I think constructive is the key word here. And balancing of different arguments. If we are constantly swinging towards negatives that of course it’s not helpful, the same way it wouldn’t be helpful to be overly optimistic. Middle ground is where we should try to aim for.
Although paradoxically it’s the hardest.
Does that make sense?☺️

I am willing to help out with a discord server if need be,

I totally see your point and it is something that I would love to look into once we are sure to have sufficient resources as it will require even more maintenance than TG but it’s definitely worth better suited to lot of the topics especially more technical and gameplay related ☺️ plus there is Nitro 🤪( which I don’t pay for but I like to feel that I could 😆)

Thank you. I'm not frustrated, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy between statements that can be regarded as FUD if stated by members of the community or NCR holders, and yet the same rules are not applied for announcements or statements (non-safe harbored) by the Neos Foundation (CEO, COO etc). The same empty promises/statements can also be said by the Neos Foundation can also be stated with the intention of causing manipulation.

Nitro isn't required for a discord server!

That’s awesome, and I would be glad to discuss 😁 thank you

I request that the Neos Foundation release something inline with the promises and commitments already stated by the Neos Foundation. Everyone's patience are running out. When can the foundation commit to a release so this is not apparent FUD at this point?

Theirs also a unbelievable amount of people in neos who just don't own a phone with a simcard

Yes I know, it’s what I meant, I just like the idea of it but I never actually bother to pay for it 😄

Could we agree, that truthful statements, however much they sound like they are FUD, are never to be dealt with as FUD?

Really? Gosh I feel very old right now or very mainstream 😁

Fire me a DM on discord, User 'merith'

I have ran a few communities before. No expert but I have an pretty good feel for things

Prozac why thumbs down?

Well if they are supported by evidence of some sort then I personally don’t see why it should be perceived as FUD. I’m talking of objective evidence. And before someone jumps at me and opens some sort of Pandora box 😁..we really are in this boat together and we are the ones choosing if it’s going to sink or float.

So this is why I see constant circling towards classic negative themes like not really helpful because nobody can move further.
Let’s bring not just arguments but also suggestions. That is definitively welcome. ☺️

Let's not forget that sometimes how w community feels about something can be considered evidence when it comes to these regards

Btw, the unofficial discord is still linked from Patreon

Moderators can't be cold machines, they need tk be able to understand the context

+1 reason to make another discord

Sure, that's how the majority of discord ended up accusing Karel of locking up Froox as a slave

Uh

What?

Guess you weren't around for that

I'm not even exaggerating

That's uhm, quite an exaggeration from my understanding??

Definitely not "majority" but I know what you are referring to

It was a majority of those active in the NCR channel at the time

The only ones I recall pushing back at all were some cryptobros

Well, if you try to leave the house, but find the front door is locked and your key isn't working. That's how those happen

Hahaha still going 🤣

Yall are absurd

Just staying truthful and not adding any made up things

I understand the community sentiment unfortunately. And I think we can do a lot of the things better to change that. Starting in here. ☺️

Such a noble pursuer of truth 👏 🙌

btw, you started it, as if people make root-less accusations

With how much damage karel has done with recent actions alone, that will take A LOT of time, but not impossible

Nothing is impossible 😁💪

You are correct

If you love your community, they will return that favor

In my opinion, the future of neos under Karel is a coin flip, it's either gonna flop from community drama, or it's going to rise again, only thing to do is to wait and see

Anyway, I'm looking for some clarity regards the existing discord server, whether it is or isn't official regards Neos. As it is still linked from Patreon, but seems to be ran by people no longer employed/contracted by Solirax (correct me if I'm wrong.) What are the actual facts in this regard?

Karel.hasnt gotten around do de-linking it IIRC

Despite having said they were going to over a month ago

Well we can look at it this way or we can work on this more closely together.
You all are the community.
Without community there is need for Neos.
So of course I want to try to bring as much clarity as possible - so please any of these specific questions just tag me and I will read it tomorrow and try to address it as it is terribly late where I live and I think in the morning my brain is going to have much more power and juice 😁
Thank you 🙏

No worries! Just be sure to fire me a message about the discord

Thank you 😊

@malooniac I sent you more info in DM

"Working more closely together" is us bunking down and entirely ignoring any wrongdoing. You and Karel have refused to do anything but double down on your many missteps over the years, barely even acknowledging any of our grievances. So many of your responses feel completely tonedeaf, and it's why we're so unhappy. How dare you try and pin this responsibility on the community that's already stuck with you for this many years.

None

This world truly needs love and kindness.

Maybe if you just try to see Karel as a human being then you could understand him better.

He dedicated his twenties to a dream and colleague he dearly loved. He has been working his ass off under enormous amount of pressure to give you Neos, your new friends, and all the fun you guys surely had on the platform.

Karel is now a grown man, who is well aware of his past mistakes.

It’s our time now to help Karel catch his dream and rise up to the stars. ✨

He deserves to be happy just as you all do. 🧚‍♂️

Deja vu

The problem is less seeing Karel as a human being or remembering what he has done for neos. Really, most people don't even care about his mistakes he did two years ago and i applaud him for having a family with child.

Where you are mistaken is his awareness of mistakes at times. Its not something that happend a long time ago, its something that happens again and again, last two days ago.

So no, its not all rainbows and sunshine. Things have to change and be better. If they are, past mistakes will be forgotten.

IF Karel would start learning from those mistakes and tries to change... perhaps change the cause or possibility of those mistakes by changing who moderates.

Even in the past days he's actively making huge missteps that massively damage the communities trust in him. We've been supporting the game for years and he's still doing these things to us, and if he truly wants our help, he can start rebuilding trust, whenever he pleases. Why would we even help him if we could just be given the boot at the drop of a hat?

You're speaking as if any of us are bringing up old stuff for the sake of smearing him. Were exposing an ongoing pattern in his treatment of the community.

Seeing someone as human isn't about letting them get away with any and all possible cruelty, it's allowing them to learn, and Karels had plenty of time to do so.

Are/were you also Aisha?

ZD will do anything to contribute to the conversation other than contribute to the conversation

Lol

The same "community" that tried to chase Karel out of Neos and have been shitting on him for the last two years demanding that he treat them with respect and take their demands seriously...

Just no self awareness at all

Lets see. Yes, much of the community would be more then happy if Karel would be out of the picture for Neos.

But there is obviously more to it... i mean the WHY... its not that they dislike Karel outright

Its that if Froox is out of the picture, the literal inventor of Neos is gone. The one that made the software, the things most love about Neos. If Karel is gone, the CEO would be gone... but the development could have continued

But that is old news. It doesn't really apply anymore. Sooner than later there will be a split now anyway. "Just" two years are lost forever.

Ehhh I didn't lose any years. I've been playing the heck out of Neos. Thankfully the battle in the clouds still left us a working playground below

Unfortunately I don't get to play the "full game" so to speak. Desyncing issues prevents me from playing fully on a lot of larger sessions, especially headless ones. Development continuing would at least give me hope for this being resolved
Can still talk to people, but can't see items they spawn until much later

This is exactly my point lol. Yall want him gone and have not been exactly subtle about it the last two years. Yet at the same time expect him to listen to you and consider you part of the "community" that he should be serving as CEO. Do you really not see the hypocrisy?

Elitist and Exclusionary

Your trying to say that just because they don't agree with the actions being done, they are not apart of the community

People want him gone, because he isn't fekkin listening to what people want

So get your head out of your ass and look at the bugger picture. Majority want shit to happen. From the information that is readily available and accessible, He is the reason why shit is NOT happening

(in truth is a proper stalement between Froox and Karel, so fault on both sides in regards to shit not getting done, regardless of drama)

two years of progress. And no its not entirely all Karels fault, its just the reasoning behind why people wanted him gone. But fast forward to today this doesn't really mather anymore. Lost is lost. The two years we lost will be known as the dark ages of Neos/Insert-Product-Name-Here VR space

I'll put my head wherever I want dude

At least you admit it

We've wanted him gone because he's messed everything up. We're willing to support him if he'll actually support the game itself and the community that makes it what it is, but for years he's proven he either chooses not to, or cannot.

Exactly

Lol this bot

I don't think I even used any swear words

tbh I think its you and many others who chose to stop listening very early on. There's been no room for him to even breath without it being seen as a disaster.

It's primarily his choice of words

And impulsivity

The kind of respectful relationship we want goes both ways. Whenever Karel even speaks AT ALL he gets lambasted, and has a peanut gallery over on discord taking shit he says and making wild claims out of it

You can see me in the past chiding Karel for message tone

Even when he doesn't talk he has people stalking his twitter likes and shit

Let me try again.

You're simply upset that Karel is doing what's in his best interest and vision for Neos after the rest of the team tried to force him out. Your talk of "supporting" Karel is hard to take seriously when the main demand by the community has been that he leave the project.

Not to mention that Karel's primary role and function as CEO was bus development, keeping the lights on and the project funded. He succeeded beyond anyone's expectations with NCR during the last crypto bull market, but because of whatever differences he had with the team, they told him to effectively F off. Years of funding for devs, hiring, marketing, etc. down the drain. Regardless of whether their reasons were valid or not, your statement that Karel alone "messed everything up" is simplistic af

right, and I remember how assholes on the dev team talked down to me. And I see people like Geenz talking so bizarrely smug with people its damn disgusting

Again, it's hypocritical to hear about policing tone given what a lot of the discord was saying about Karel two years ago

youre right though, its not justified

I have only been here since January man

Alright well there's a lot of history and bad blood here

Yeah, I am not saying it's all one person's fault

It's both sides fault on why neos (in its current state) is in a development/legal stalemate

and, again, I'll point out that when this shit went down, IT WAS FROOX and his buddies who CHOSE to maliciously throw NCR holders... the very people funding his precious dream project... under the bus.

And the community was all for it

they were cheering him on, and the only person who gave a goddamn about those people who spent their money funding the project was Karel

I have seen the texts, and I read how Karel talked down to you

I agree, its messed up

Can we get rid of this stupid bot?

What are you even on about, how in the world did they throw anyone under the bus?

I agree though that was not cool to get talked down to like that. I want to tell you to chalk it up to Karel assuming literally everyone is out to bust his balls, but that doesnt excuse it

From what I gather, attempted to be hostile through development to NCR functions

That really doesn't add up

Lol dude they literally tried to yeet NCR out of the entire project

what doesn't?

No excuse for how he talked, but he is under a lot of stress as of late, after calling the discord unofficial and everyone there imposters, everyone there who was still doing their jobs, stopped

Like what doesnt add up for you?

So all of that workload got slammed on Karel

If they really wanted NCR not in neos they would not have put the time into coding the functionality in at all

The fact that they coded it in and initially supported NCR for years before all the crap went down is what makes it bad... had none of that occurred, we wouldn't be having this conversation

Yeah they were all for it back then when crypto wasn't this icky thing on social media. Froox himself said Neos would be dead without NCR. He said that years ago before all this.

The problem was, they would develop it. But it wasn't focused, and then when karel released the white paper with their "signatures" without their proper consent (lack of != Consent) that's when this shit went down

When Karel became an issue, devs said they would remove NCR once they removed Karel

they basically offered all the heads on the platter just to save face and used us as bargaining chips against Karel

When NCR crashed they might've. I know I don't see it coming back.

When you start saying the inconvenint truth, they start thumbsing down

NCR crashed BECAUSE they made known their intent to remove it

What are you on about? NCR crashed when the cryptobros dumped

You must be new or something?

I was there the whole time. NCR had its largest drop in history when Froox announced he was considering removing NCR from the game

It literally happened the moment he posted that announcement

Why do you think holders dumped?

people in discord try to rewrite history but the chart doesn't lie.

I thought it was when Karel silently started a poll

Lol the poll caused more buying because ppl were excited about possibility of staking

And this comes after like a month of the devs doing damaging things, like making channels with topics like "brainstorming ways to remove NCR from Neos" and their public stance being "eh we might remove it. We dont like crypto so we'd like to but who knows".

And the crypto guys were like "hey, we funded the game. Can't you like say something to help us feel like we're not in danger?" and they never did.

Hexa, just wanna say I appreciate your thumbs down and emojis. Makes it easier to spot which posts are actually worth reading

They could have simply said "look, NCR is a part of Neos, you're all fine stop worrying" But they instead said "we dont wany anything to do with it. when Karel gone so is NCR"

They chose to drag NCR holders into this dispute

I don't remember them saying anything like that.

And they labeled those holders as cryptobros when many are just people who liked Neos. Many were Japanese players who didnt know anything going on.

Well I do. If I was home I'd show screenshots. Its not exactly a secret the devs stance on it. They've said they wish it was gone. Would you collect money from people for 4 years and then say "I wish those people just went away"?

Right, the charts don't lie. Altcoins including NCR were pumping left and right when BTC reached its ATH in November 2021, then got wrecked the following year. It was a pump and dump by "investors" trying to make a quick buck.

Also, NCR isn't even allowed in the Steam version of Neos, which most people use

Yeah like every crypto cycle. But look at how hard NCR suffered due to the uncertainty of its fate? Compare it to something like MANA, another game metaverse token for a much more inferior product. It faired the market about 10x better than NCR did.

LMAO
Team neos wasn't paid at all, the only ones collecting money were Karel and NCR holders

And I wont pretend like Karel didnt cause market issues like with that terrible discord poll

Most of Team Neos were paid contractors what are you even talking about

Lies upon lies upon lies

NCR has been being sold through patreon since 2018. And later through an ICO on the website. That money went to keeping the lights on.

Again, lets take Froox's word for it: "Neos would be dead if not for NCR"

What they did was not at all fair to those people who had been putting money into the game. The internal struggles is not at all their fault.

Froox and his friends pulled them into this and made Karel's fate theirs.

Who is defending them during all this shit? Instead you want to gaslight people into believing some false narrative and give the devs a faultless out.

How does one even put up with so much hate rly 🙃

Spite

Misinformation might be more accurate. Most people hear it from someone who hear it from someone who...

Is it a lie when someone just has a wrong information and does not know about it? owo

Yes a repeated lie is still a lie

It just might not be the person saying it who's lying. They're just trusting something someone said without checking facts. Which is still bad! But less malicious than lying

Yes lying would imply malicious behaviour, repeating somebody elses lie might be participating in malicious behaviour unintentionaly or also might also be as well intentional. However a lie is still a lie. Meaning the opposite of true.

Ok it's a bit pedantic but actually!

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/lie

It does have a specific implication of intent

Ok so if you repeat a lie that someone else have said then its true?

Nah, it's just misinformation or a falsehood

It originates from a lie I guess

Muddy territory

A person is not telling a lie when someone else is repeating it

Repeated lie makes sense to still be a lie

Doesnt make much sense to me but ok

False beliefs are not lies. A lie is an attempt to present that which isn't as that which is by one who knows better. Deception is required.

The word lie just has so much bite to it. It does come across as snapping at the person talking if you call what they're saying lies, even if they were somewhere down the chain. They are potentially a victim of misinformation themselves if what they're saying isn't factual, and antagonizing is unproductive. I think that's what I'm trying to rebel against.

It's complicated. Because what you belive in could be a lie, making the things you say technically lies even if you aren't lying? Because they're clones of the original lie

Ok cool guys whens the update coming Karel ?

No. They would merely be false. This is the difference between ignorance and sophistry.

Ah yes, the productive question of the millenium

Ah ok my mystake, shoulde have said lies upon lies upon falsehoods instead😄

They aren't lying, but they are spreading lies

How do you know?

It would require reading their minds to know

Correct.

I generally assume innocence without a reason to do otherwise

In this specific case I am not even going to stand on either side of lies or not lies, honestly. I just want civil conversation.

Actively spreading misinformation looks like a good reason to assume that they are not doing it from the good of their hearts. What good would that do

Well actually they could indeed be doing it from the good of their hearts. The most powerful lies ever are those that take advantage of people's goodwill

Ah ok so no update then

Unlikely

Quick pause on the semantic thing. Any updates update Karel?

I'm going to go with https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lying-definition/ L1

I see like poeple supporting Hitler because they thought its really good idea and good for Germany or something. Fair.

Unless we're going to get into a meta-ethical discourse, in which case I don't think it's the correct forum :3

I didn’t say lying I said lies which are the product of lying

Or even in this case! If they genuinely think someone, especially someone they like, was treated unfairly, then that is a just and good reason for them to be upset. Again, I am not taking a stance on the legitimacy of any claims, I do not have any facts only heresay. But that reason as it is is a good and just one.

If you snap at them it looks AWFUL, because their motives could legitimately be pure and humanitarian in nature.

Hard to say what people are genuinely thinking as no-one can read minds.

I just said lies upon lies upon lies

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/lie still emphasizes deliberate intent to deceive. We can't separate intent from this just by making it the objective case.

It's true. Which could well be accurate, who knows. But it is a biting thing to say

Oh god hes started talking about hitler
I just wanna see the new update man..

The statement that Neos Team members were not paid is 100% untrue and a lie

And it’s one of many that is being spread around

Saying that I didn’t pay someone who I did pay is not biting?

There is a reality and hard objective facts, some statements are true while others are not

Stop polarising community

Problem being made worse with hostile attitude

Calling a lie a lie is hostile to you?

I'm sure it is biting. Being lied about sucks a lot. And I'm sure it's tiring to hear the same thing over and over again too. I 1000000% understand why the reaction from your perspective. I'm not really into the shouting of third party facts at you either. I think both sides could do with some calming down some days.

Snake4CEO

A fact is a thing that is known or proved to be true. These are definitely not facts.

Accusing community members of deception. Implying. Message hints and planned and targeted "repeated lies"

Causes other community members to defend falsely accused
Causes community to dislike and polarise

Look at the bigger picture. Do not argue over small things

Would be nice if people actually researched something before repeating lies and nonsense.

Does not excuse or resolve problem

See now we're talking. This would have been an excellent response honestly

Like the new update :)

Same problem exist everywhere on internet

It's less accusatory and more just woeful of lies generally

Implies that research would disprove the lie being told. Encourages fact seeking. I like it.

Must show maturity. CEO position is not member of anonymous message board. Relationship with community very delicate

Everything is hidden under thousand of thousands of messages. No official Announcement or FAQ channels for people to look at. To be fair, who's gonna waste their time searching for that one true message under millions of other messages?

I don't. Lie is too loaded. Implies malicious intent in the speaker, clear ad-hominim, rhetorically unrefined :3

Malicious intend can never be proven hence you could call nothing a lie.

Yeah cool everyone sucks
So when's that update?

Alright Krou I've said my piece and I'm on board

No. You just don't use lie if you don't think the person is malicious. We don't need to prove intent, it must be believed.

I certainly think it is malicious.

It has been for two years now.

You think anyone who is misinformed is malicious? I hope that's not the case. (this is the primary reason lie is not a great word choice, it places the moral weight on the speaker. unless you wish to imply malicious intent from everyone who holds that false belief, but this is not a great position to hold because it's easy to attack as conspiracy minded.)

Yes I think everyone who is misinformed and repeating a lie should be called out for repeating a lie.

Otherwise our civilization would soon crumble to nothing if we can’t even call untrue statements untrue

I saw multiple people in here stating facts that aren’t true. For example the person who said you had a family and a child. I wouldn’t call them a liar just because someone missinformed them on the matter. ;)

I mean, it's definitely not the position I'd spin in a forensics event, but you do you I suppose. Doxa differs in time and place. I'm just pointing out that correcting a misunderstanding has less emotional baggage than putting truth to the lie.

Why is every word getting such a discussion .... That's not what important here guys.

You certainly could if it was a lie.

It's gone too far, I blame myself

I would get piled on for even saying that water is wet. 🤣

First of all how dare you wow yikes

Can't believe such open and blatant statements are being spread around about water

Hear me out: water isn't wet. It can only make other things wet. If you add water to water, it just clumps up. Water is in fact, absent other influences: sticky. :3

you are sticky xD

Lol

None

Do we really need to discuss definitions.

Some of the neos team had a monthly payment from Karel/Solirax. There screenshot it put it on a t-shirt.

You know perfectly well I can’t answer that when I’m banned. 🥺

Bet

Sadly most, if not all of those informations about that got deleted from the wiki :/
Now people are back to speculating.

It did? Which pages were deleted that contained that information?

Not pages but the recordings from the office hours as far as I remembered. That question popped up before and been in the discord aswell multiple times before.

I never really mentioned that on the recordings

Yeah, who was paid/underpaid was more of a mater of oral tradition. It is worth noting that Prime has been very consistent when I've seen him discussing this in saying that none of the development team (e.g. Himself, Geenz, Possibly Raith?) were compensated for their work rather than the more general "no one got paid".

Also that payment wasn't the main problem. Do you think loss of trust has anything to do with payment?

Let me reiterate this thing: Money wasn't the problem. And I guess this also extends to payments

There were, well, some payments to the dev team. But also let's not forget, some of the dev team refused to be paid, for whatever reasons undisclosed

There is just way too much misinformation in here, it hurts

Also, dev team is more than those who wrote code, this includes also the people who developed content and developed the community, it's all mudded down

None

The unsaid bit is that Neos didn't really have any money to be paying everyone.

Especially not at the rate Geenz was asking at around $200k a year

Geenz didn't ask for $200k

He asked to be paid a parttime salary of around 50k a year for 10 hours a week = $200k

So he asked for 50k, got it. Thanks for clarifying.

And patreon was like what, 12k a month? genuinely refresh my memory.

$50k for 10 hours a week. Get it yet?

Yes, he never suggested going above 10 hours as such he would never need $200k as such he was asking for $50k.

I'm well aware, I've sat over drinks and food and talked with Geenz about this.

Glad you guys got to sit down and talk about how absurd it is

It may be absurd but it was a start of negotiation, the response from the other party there should have been. "Sorry we can't go that high, let's talk about going lower" which I think happened.

So atleast I'll give you credit for pointing out people got paid, since its ridiculous that continhally its an attack that gets thrown around "no one was paid" when Neos didnt even have the money to pay its devs

Much less pay for infrastructure and to have a warchest

I correct misinformation regardless of which "side" it is on

That's why I originally wrote the NCR FAQ page, to make sure everyone had the right answers to as many NCR questions as possible.

I think proper response would've been:
*slap your knee laughing*
*wipe tear from eye*
"Get out"

Most companies have a professional negotiation process when it comes to salary expectations. The key is to remain professional and cordial even if that is the response inside your head.

He could've done sone research on the patreon-funded organization he was applyjng to

Based on my understanding of the way Geenz likes to collect employment he probably did.

Payment expectations are wildly different, depending on location and laws involved too.

For example my income is much lower here in austria... but half of my income is taxes, and my complete income again is payed by the employer directly to services

(social security for example)

so whatever is considered income is actually 1/4 ^^

I read his response and he seemed like he didn't realize that paying his rate would have ran the company in the ground in short order

And that is fine too Orc. I advice everyone working for any organization over the internet (like patron funded neos) to keep hourly rates stable to what you normally get, but offer to work way less hours than you would actually put in in the end

Reality is, i also had many jobs pay me for 5 or 10 hours a month, when i actually put in more like 40... but i did this because i wanted, not because i had to.

If you don't do this, you will get problems at your next job most likely

The point is that Neos did pay out when it could

There's this attitude like it wasn't enough or its only begrudgingly mentioned that some got paid, but everyone seems to forget Neos was just getting by

Again, many of the people did not get payed, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks that was because someone wanted to get rich fast, at least thats not how i see it

Thats exactly how its presented though.

Obviously the majority of people that got not payed did it knowing that they don't get payed... if not everyone

It's presented without context to try to make it sound like Mr Moneybags wanted to keep the profits

I kind of even question why this is such difficult problem. AS said, payment was never really the problem. But to demand that everyone keeps working like normal, even considering that they "don't get payed" created a bit bad blood, obviously

It was less because of the "don't get payed" as the demands imposed. And its such a long time ago... really, i don't think many care anymore.

What do you mean?

Old story, i am sorry i even brought it up. I just assume thats what this all was about. Just ignore me, i have to get back to work ;)

Alright

AFAIK, the moment there was money to actually pay, thats when the problems arose. Even during that people had opportunity to send an invoice but everyone refused. Maybe at the time they didn't know how long and stupid this would all be.

Noone expected all of this. Everyone assumed there would be a showdown by law or a buyout from one of the both parties. But here we are two years later and squabbeling about semantics.

I underestimated how much the tumb-war between Karel and Froox would stop development for such a long time. If any of the both sides would have had purly financial interest, this could have been obviously solved with money and/or lawyers.

Soooo... thats why we are all here again. But at least this is all over very soon now.

Decorum is very important

None

over 110k usd at its peak https://web.archive.org/web/20211130193924/https://www.patreon.com/neosvr

yeah when ncr took off, but before that it was like 12k or less if I recall

people subbed like crazy for the ncr rewards which were now worth a lot

you can go back in history a few months and see how much it was, more than 12k

at the start of 2020 it was $4448

start of 2021 was around 10k

The point is that its often pushed that Karel was hoarding funds greedily when in reality they were struggling to get runway and still paid people when they could

people are so used to the lies I literally had someone going "LMAO neos didn't pay anyone!" to me

its embarressing to still see shit like that this late

Damn what happened to that update

Waiting waiting

Soon,tm

Hey we still got one more day for that update expectancy :3

Explain?

Here

And here

3 months since promise of new white paper. Hope for soon.

Still waiting...

oh a managed group now? any reasoning behind this ? beside hiding members of the group ?

Well... a benefit is reducing the scambot spam that DM you privatly tbh.

@Karel it has been a little over two weeks now, whats the status of that update?

It's just a vague estimate, I wouldn't hold it to them since everything can very much be in-dev currently

If I gave vague estimates I'd be out of clients.

This is starting to have the same feel as a failing Kickstarter - the one you back and patiently wait for updates, being assured work is being done even though no evidence has been shown, only to drop into radio silence leaving you wondering if anything will ever be delivered.

Need to ask the Anylanders how they coped.

aint those servers still up

Sounds like FUD someone might get upset

Mmm Fud(ge) squares

Ah hey look this sus account is deleted

The Furry Mafia mustve taken em down 1920s style

Three different accounts with single word nondescript feminine names and simple or nonexisting profile pics, all joining in after the last account gets deleted, all spamming emojis and Karel praise before getting deleted. Very interesting

Anyone else having issues loading messages in Neos?

Yeah, that thing has been very jittery for the past month or so and today it won't even load

It Is Very Interesting The State Neos Has Remained In For Two Years Almost

Limbo you mean? Well, there is new hope with that one i guess...

What Do You Mean

I... can't say? Everything i know is only rumor or not (yet) public. But what i mean with that is that there is a lot of movement going on right now. Like both groups working to very close deadlines with software and release dates. So its less limbo than it was and the next 1-2 month will be very interesting

I Remember Being Told That One Year Ago

Well, not by me. But there is also no reason to assign any value to what i say. In any case, my opinion is that there are lots of interesting things happening right now.

For now, we remain in the dark without any official news

It Might Be Safe To Consider This To Be A Dead Project

A Shame That A Handful Of Individuals Imploded Over $100,000 In Potential Monthly Revenue

Two Individuals Really

Greed Is Dangerous

Its not that surprising that with friendship come a lot of feelings attached, expecially if there is a break in trust and one side is pushing the creation of the other to be something they don't want it to be

Sure, the money made it boil over, as it was kind of what inflamed the issue but really in no way the cause.

In my personal opinion, all that should have been given to lawyers on day one. It would have been solved by now and at least one side could have continued work undisturbed of the petty squabbels

But still, it seams like it happend now so i will be curious to see the project(s) and we will be able to stash away the squables very soon as forgotten past of neos/whatever name

And i am as curious to see the project(s) that survive in 2 years

Ay messages are back

News?

no

No news....

I honestly don't really think they were actually friends

my headcannon is that they had aligned interests and tried to make a friendship work but really each was just glad they had someone potentially helping them

like froox was just glad to get funding and a place and karel was glad to have a good vr product to start a business with

Can't speak for others. But considering how long and close they worked together over so many years, expecially over long time without any financial gain, having close aligned interests, its a safe bet

froox's real friends are obvious and karel's not in that group

Froox gained friends in neos because of his work, and Karel was never really that close to Neos (as in the VR software). I don't remember ever meeting him there

But thats something that happend all after many, many years. Neos as a VR world happend MANY years after Froox and Karel got togehter as partners

Many years

It had to be created first

yeah, I read the blog archive about them first meeting

the feeling I got was froox being in a hard place and just being glad someone was there to help him work on his dream, but not really like "hey this guys pretty cool and we get along" but more like "this guy is going to help me" is how he's introduced in the writing

I dont know though, maybe they were like peanut butter n jelly back in the day

I only know the stories, i don't know how true they are. Froox main interest was always in creating what he wanted and didn't even want Neos to evolve to a point where true money is involved, as far as i can tell. It kind of feels he blocked it quickly evolving to an actual product given the chance (crypto bubble) BUT its also true that this bubble burst, and to say thats entirely because of Froox seams far fetched too.

Both had completly different interests at that point, yes, but that doesn't tell anything about the past.

well people like to project their own shit onto froox (and karel) so I dont know where the truth is.

Froox did want his project to evolve and carefully grow to what he thinks neos should be, Karel did see a chance to make this an actual company with real money involved. Both interests are valid, but its not what crashed it.

Ppl like to say froox is this pure socialist against the idea of money existing in his VR utopia and that crypto was forced on him

I don't know, sounds far fetched. It just seams like he didn't want it to grow at that point, and Karel exactly wanted that.

first time i hear that one, the "utopia" thing. at least in the sense of "against the idea of money existing" the latter part ive seen

And looking after-the-fact Froox wasn't wrong. It did crash

self fulfilling prophecy you mean

Perhaps, but i understand both very much, same thing happend to me with a "browsergame" i created about 15 years ago (yea, still exists)

The jump from "cool, we have a community, it works, everyone is having fun" and "we can make real money with that" is always extreme trouble

Feels like also a good reason for Karel to lash out, getting denied, and acting agressive as he did