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gm

ncr fam!

gm

有中文群电报吗？

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我不这么认为
I don't think so

Hi chenlong , there is no official Chinese group as of now sorry, but it's definitely something we could take a look at in the future:)

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good evening all how is everyone

Thonking

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@malooniac … magick?

Hey guys have you read this Neos review? https://www.charliegaming.com/metaverses/neos

1) The trailer is wrong
2) Several other minor mistakes but those are more opinion related.

I like how where you live is a natural pro.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Zi8qFs_OzyQ&feature=shares

Anyone going to SXSW or the GDC game show?

Really?! How do you know that? Damn! The web3/crypto world is so dirty

NCR moon？

The Road Map is not well-structured. It contains lists of long-term goals, upcoming updates, suspended items, further planning and various things in progress.

To make it even more garbage, I took a look at the "Partners" which they hated so much (It was the lowest part on the score), and all they did was snapshot a copy of the website at about 720p, which is why OBB is nextlined.

Plus the constant swap in perspectives feels like it was written by someone who hardly knows how to write proper articles.

HOWEVER... I'm more curious about the "Student Wallet," since there is no mention of that term at all on the site or whitepaper... and if it did indeed come from "the creators..."

But I do find it funny they only NOW have written an article... when it's been a solid year since the platform has received no updates. Like, welcome to club, buddy, but you're beyond late.

I'm just going back to my gamepad project so I can play videogames directly in Neos.

i wonder how well other input methods into neos will work

tested xinput through websocket which works quite well, but neos likes to take xinput gamepad as its own inputs too

I thought it was backed by Unity's input handler... but alas, it isn't... which is kind of a good thing, since Unity considers everything an acceptable joystick... like my 3D Space Navitgator, which is always a blast when I have something leaning on it.

yipes

ill try pygame for input handling and see how that goes

Oh yeah. That was a fun thing to debug on VRChat: "WHY AM I CONSTNATLY SPINNING?!"
Turns out that by default, it sets the X/Y to 0, which Unity reads as 'LEFT/UP' in raw value form. This was something I learned when writing a control scheme for the Steel Battalion Controller for Kerbal Space Program.

For now, I'm not interested in controlling Neos persay, but rather another device, with feedback visible and adjustable within Neos itself

So, for example, being able to relay inputs to my SteamDeck from directly in Neos, or taking regular joystick data from an emulator and sending it back to Neos for visual response. Hoping to get the latter done first, as that'd help pave the way towards the other direction with the SteamDeck

ahh- i figured that might be what you meant

I'm glad I'm not the only observer of that

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Neos gotten an update today

This is important

was waiting until someone mentioned it.

However, it was a minor/hotfix update

and youtube~

anyway things are getting better and better

yea new users can watch YouTube again its pretty good

my confusion is why no one else in this chat noticed the video players were working... but then again, I guess that shows how the majority don't even jump in...

Like, everyone in-world were sharing fixes and resuming projects

🎉🎉🎉🎉

Long life to Neos

Yoooo!!!

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Gosh, I can't decide on just one

Changelog?

Oooooh

Did the steam build get this update?

I think only the steam build got the update, as the separate build is still at 2022.1.28.1310_MMC21_2

i counted three
the update part is my favorite, personally

Yeah, really psyched. I like the one change since it's solution is far better of a solution than what I could fathom

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This update happened last MMC as well, the small facet update, though at least it was *an* update.

It shows they can update the game if they want

It was needed for the mmc

Also were the locales updated by any chance?

Or maybe there will be more updates after the MMC voting and judging is over 😮

Once again MMC is nothing to do with the Neos team, so its timeline, judging, voting etc have no consequence on the state of Neos.

We changed a 2 to a 3 in our config and updated a dependency that's it.

Bruh moment

But our hopes 🥺

It's just a variable change. You can do that easily with a hex editor.

gm ncr

fam

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Metaverse has update. No NCR coin update?

Yes that's correct

Thanks for your many Neos tutorials! It has made building in Neos so much fun! 🥰😎

Can confirm: Prime's tutorials makes sanity possible

gm

NCR fam

Gm

Shouldn't the updater from the website not pull the same data?

The steam build has to be submitted to Valve. I'm not sure what is required to update the website build.

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Morning

If I had NCR on Bitrue and it's no longer there, has it gone for good?

I don't know this service, but the one having your private key is the one having the coins

Thats why its good to have it yourself

(keystone file)

Yeah I was in the process of accumulating when the price tanked. Thought it was dead, so forgot about it

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Neos team is aware, presumably there is an issue doing so at the moment https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/439422161657135106/1082211389688520714

if its that much of a worry, it is not hard to perform the update yourself
just the standalone has some hurdles like above

You can manually update your world filter facet and update ytdlp yourself. NCR isn't affected at all.

invited two friends to neos today, they are setting up their avatar rn x3

🤘dope

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Today I tried EngageVR .io

It looks like an alfa, very MVP UI and limited customization, but then they have companies like BMW, 3M, Stanford University, and more aboard.

Neos is light years ahead. What do you think companies are far from Neos? Is it the adult content? Is it the founders? Is it the furry community? Is it the lack of marketing efforts?

Neos is such a powerful product compared to other platforms. Neos is the metaverse, at least in the VR interaction.

Maybe we just need updates and a strong administration 🤷‍♂️ , a marketing strategy in place, VC investors, a new UI.

Karel, what are your thoughts on this?

IMO, a lot of these other 'metaverse'-like platforms tend to seek that business side before bothering with the foundation. Neos on the other hand has the foundation, but not those marketing or business relationships yet. Besides the current partnership problem, I do think neos needs more user-friendly features and optimization before trying to promote itself.

“Yet”… is it in the pipeline? IMO, Neos is ready for marketing and funding.

My thought was it was the features of the platform that brought the communities over to Neos. So my thoughts on it would likely be that depending on the goals of the platform, there would need to be specific priorities to be worked on first. For example, engagevr seems to be focussing on business, so business related featues would be the priority, where comfort features such as good UI and customisation aren't as high of a priority.

Neos was actually focussing on classroom and business related things for a short while, which is why Neos Classroom and Neos Pro exist, and was being touted to schools, but the focus shifted to community and social growth, so those priorities shifted.

"Yet" because I think its a likely future. But our guarantees right now are limited

Unfortunately, he's not doing anything like a scammer

you told me lol

Just my 5 cents on the matter: There are both a perk and disadvantages to limited-scope systems like Engage. While it functions very well for communication and demonstration, that's it. Neos and other platforms with in-depth customization functions have more functions to explain and deal with, and thus have a larger scope and set of functional capabilities, but for simplicity, it also absolutely fails.

In a sense, we do see that currently with... VRChat. While its functions are limited by comparison, it's ease of use is a major attractor and often a major argument why people prefer it over Neos (besides other reasons). Logically, you'd think people would want more functions and more capabilities, but in reality, this is sadly not the case.

Another example is Linux vs Windows vs Apple: Some people find Apple's simplicity to be worth it to purchase their overpriced hardware, with Windows as a common middle ground. Linux has the large list of benefits, but ease of use isn't always one of them. While Android and SteamOS both are Linux based, it required putting a paperbag on its head to make it attractable.

Thanks that’s a good answer

But as a company Neos needs money to run. How is Neos doing money now? Patreon is not enough the platform will not be sustainable in the long run, depending on Patreon’s alone.

Yeah, I think the same ease of use is key. You can see platforms like spatial and engage that can be used even in a mobile phone.

I want to believe, but maybe we have to accept the truth, Neos could die.

I wonder what Karel and Frooxious are doing in their everyday lives 🤷‍♂️ Working on gigs? Do they need any counseling or support?

Karel is not saying anything about this productive and constructive communication. what the hell he is doing?

oh maybe liking Elon musk post.

Karel is not even active on Twitter anymore

@malooniac you too

Nor @Neos_Metaverse account

he is liking tesla and elon tweets tho haha

Frooxious is the only one that seems to be alive

When people realize how dogshit VRChat is with its dumb chinese spyware, they will make the switch and community will grow even more

The devs for VRC are incompetent. they don't even have a proper messaging system, and the one thing that you can do, invite people, doesn't even work over IPV6 because the devs are unbelievably careless

VRShit will die when people see Neos

VRC is just a chat

Unity is garbage

true

Can confirm. I've seen them in the wild, and they are always looking around and interested with creations.

Uh... about that...
This already happenned... when EAC was introduced. The problem is that people did come... but then left. While many did say it was insane what you 'can' do in Neos, it also brings up a big point, and (hot take) it's a reason why I hate Open Source being used as a primary feature:

Sure, you CAN do anything, but how many people honestly even care? It's like when FOSS software is promoted as "You can fix and add features that don't exist," except that not everyone is a software engineer and/or has the time to deal with it.

VRChat is an amusement park where you bring in the rides from the outside. Work is published, but when you use the client, you ride the rides.
Neos is a system you can use to make the rides, write the apps, do the work, or just ride the rides, use the apps, or observe the work, all in addition to just hanging out.

More advanced does not mean better. Watching the discussion about why Microsoft Word switched to the Ribbon UI was because people found menus daunting is pretty helpful in understanding the issue.

an amusement park with shitty broken rides and little kids running around.... no thanks....

love it or hate it, arguing its success is futile, and I don't even like the company behind it.

Say VRShiet all you want, but it is the platform that gets the money, the users, the creators, and the advertisement benefits.

normies are dumb breaking news

Then the smart people in the community can step up and take us forward

VRChat is just a non-factor to me. It can't take us anywhere we haven't already been.

It is what it is and it's not going to go any further. It will only ever get more restrictive and streamlined into a content deluge.

Neos touched on a new computing paradigm, if just briefly and in a very small context.

VRChat has always been following a tragectory that transitions the read/write creative culture of its early adopters into a basis for selling brand presence. For that reason it was always going to be conservative and ultimately regressive in terms of user focus and empowerment. They want that App Store money, and you don't get App Store money by keeping around Hypercard. :P

Writing an operating system is vastly different over writing an application system

additionally, Meta's OS for their headsets is Android

Karel used to make VR headsets? I know a guy who just paid off $86 million in debt from his previous startup in three years, and recently built a new ar company that hired 1,000 people to make ar software and hardware. Many of his former employees are at pico vr . You could work together.

also, I looked it up: it wasn't an HMD, but rather an upgrade to the Oculus DK1, dubbed RiftUp. There was an attempt with an HMD after the campaign, called Claire 12M, but I'm having trouble finding nothing more than prototype photos from GDC 2015.

Even then, the campaign for RiftUp was run by someone else named Daniel Rozsnyo.

Thin Red Line

Hello everyone☺️, since I can see the lively discussion that once again mentions myself and Karel, let me respond with the usual “we are working hard” chorus.😁

Apologies that this is going to be quite a bit long. Firstly, I think it’s important to be realistic here.

Neos is for sure one of the most advanced platforms, especially when it comes to interactivity and building options. Even people who have very little experience with VR are usually blown away when they see how advanced Neos is - not just the engine and post-processing but all the asset import system, logix, multi-instancing etc. It doesn’t take a lot to realise that this is much closer to an actual scalable metaverse than any other platform.

But it’s not all just honey - the user experience has been quite harsh for many people who are not so well versed with VR, we have much higher system requirements than many other platforms and learning curve is far from easy. These are significant barriers to entry for many potential users.

Sure, you could argue that for instance, learning curve is not such a big problem because powerful software usually requires more or less learning.
Like you would not expect to open Blender or Adobe and just “know” what to do.
And this is where, just in my opinion, lies the part of the problem - Neos is many things to many people.
So it naturally stirs incredible amount of passion about what the direction should be and how it should look like.

Businesses are hungry for more security and privacy features, educators want more collaboration features, creators want better light rendering, others just want it to be a bad a** version of VR chat, and I think pretty much everyone would love better UI😁.
And of course there are NCR holders, all of you who saw potential in the project and are more focused on the financial success of the project.

It’s very difficult to keep everyone happy - unless - Neos is made open source, so then the development can naturaly continue in all possible directions, which would be really exciting.
If that happened, we would be able to see more collaboration between developers and the community, new talents, leading to more features and improvements, accesibility and this would be a great news for NCR, of course, because it is likely that more companies would take notice and become interested in partnering with Neos.
However it is important to stress that I do not advocate that open sourcing is a silver bullet solution to all our problems. It has, for sure, its own issues like IP, security, maintaining direction etc. etc. And right now it’s just not even an option.

But even without open sourcing, simply having more accesible, user friendly Neos will lead to more opportunities, it will be much easier to market (yes absolutely 100% thumbs up to a good marketing strategy) and overall may lead to more opportunities to expand.
For creators, this also means a greater chance to monetize their creations and potentially earn income from their awesome work. (Again, yaay to Neos marketplace). Just imagine how empowering this will be for people who may not have so many avenues of income. Or users who live in more disadvantaged parts of the world.

I believe all of this will happen eventually, and we do indeed work while this bickering carries on, just as people continue to enjoy playing Neos and simply are “doing stuff”. The success of events like MMC is a wonderful proof of passion of Neos community, and personally I am grateful for their continued support regardless of any disagreements. Just watch some of the streams or visit a few worlds. I think it’s truly wonderful ☺️ https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1754154365

Really excited to see what the team over at discord comes up with as well! Hopefully something worth while.

Just hoping it's not another re run of high fidelity I guess.

I was about to say... I wholeheartedly disagree that Neos being open source will resolve anything, from previous experiences....

Yeah reading over what was mentioned above was just a massive jump scare of how to quickly ruin a vr platform.

Especially with having so many conversations across all current vr platforms in mass general having spoken with so many different dev teams.

My hopes have been lowered.

Thank you for your message. I love Neos, I do think Neos is the best metaverse so far, and that it will open mew opportunities for everyone.

For sure a more accesible and friendly Neos, and a market will represent a great leap into a better future. I hope you guys are working hard.

I’m a web and UI designer, if you need any help just let me know, I’ll help, no charge.

Yes, I do agree with you, open sourcing right now would be quite mad, even if it was possible. However I do think it is important to keep opening the debate, share different perspectives, etc etc. It's why this channel exist even though sometimes it's hard to believe that when reading through the history 😅

Thank you so much for this kind response, I am really glad you love Neos and your offer is very kind and I would love to hear from you, just DM me as there are never enough talented people to connect with ☺️🙏✨

If that's the case then I'd quicker drop the idea of an eth based coin system before bringing up the idea of open sourcing a platform. But that's just with my experience in vr use case technology and the political environment therein. Feels like there's a disjointed message being sent. Really makes me wonder the true direction for this particular highly advanced, beautifully crafted potential of a platform.

I've personally given up talking to friends about the platform with its current situation. It's led to awkward talks about why I'm still around or even continuing to build things on the platform, when logically speaking, with how long things have gone on, it's just a massive case of deja vu. Even a friend who was migrating from AltSpace who was looking for an alternative described their situation as "don't wanna go from one dying platform to another." That's left a rather heavy impact, especially with how recent it was made

ye that makes sense. I think about developments on any platform you enjoy for sure.

The RiftUp! project was run be me as I was studying optics at the university at the time and making my own VR headsets before the Oculus Kickstarter as basically school projects. When I received the Oculus DK1 I was happy that everyone can buy a VR headset now but the resolution was so much lower than my prototypes.

friendship is optimal x)

I’ve made an upgrade kit prototype using a much higher resolution screen and optimizing its position in the headset and needed help designing a custom board that would feed the display. Daniel is the best, can basically make any display work or even reverse ingeneer by listening to the lines on an ocsilloscope.

its weird to think neos is on its "last legs"
hopefully not for long, but you can't shake the feeling when the session browser is practically empty

.. i say, while in neos

Well while it is frustrating and I understand, I think everybody is free to make their own conclusions and certainly prioritize their needs. If your friends feel that Neos is no longer giving them the joy and satisfaction, it's okay to explore other platforms.

Most customers for the kit were theme parks and businesses so when I produced the Claire 12M with one FullHD display and aspheric lens and Claire 24M with two FullHD displays and frenel lens it was sold mostly to them as well.

In the process I met Froox and we started conceptulazing Neos as the software around back than was really basic.

Thinking how we can fund the development.

As my investor in the hardware manufacturing wanted to take the company a different path (two even higher res displays with frenels) than me (multi component optics like Lynx with one display) I’ve sold my shate to found Neos.

The hw company hot renamed to https://vrgineers.com and youcan still buy the headset I think

Karel is typing. I'm crying now.

In terms of open-sourcng that was our agreement from the get go that we would open source Neos and one of the reasons why getting additional investors after seed was so hard.

Basically all projects that have coins are open source. That is not contradictory but very much expected.

Being stuck in a situation proclaiming to open source but but not actually doing it for years makes it very hard to fund.

Additionaly investors hated the UX as you demo as part of the pitch and it’s not exactly easy for a new user.

So if we are not doing a good job with institutional investors and making the experience good for them we have to do a good job with our coin.

No funding is a weird option for a company. A starving one is not a great employer.

Right now our monthly cloud costs alone are much more than what the monthy income is. Not very sustainable and this needs to change.

Finally implementing the new UX designed by professionals and open sourcing as previouśy agreed would be a great start.

Someone asked about the build linked on the website. The file is hosted on our Azure cloud, Frooxius still has access to it so whether he choses to update that one or not is his choice.

Makes alot of sense! And of course why repeat the flaws of the past when we can better the future of new systems in vr? So again this is alot of various interesting language to push for a better insensitive but hopefully, the proper actualized methodology will be worthwhile while all of this here that you speak on gets figured out. 🙂

Storage is cheap, I am assuming most of the cost is bandwidth here

Probably bandwidth has I would assume neos overall framework is no more than 8tb if I had to guesstimate

So I'm guessing like 200$ there so that would be really interesting so have that a cost issue.

...maybe MMC23 resulted in a higher than usual spike?

Not sure.

There is over 9TB of blob storage and and 40GB database. The costs are anywhere between 11 000 to 25 000 Eur per month depending on how busy it is.

200 Usd would be nice 😄😄

I'd... be finding a new host at that point...

It would be incredibly nice. Hopefully finding the right direction to help alleviate some of those costs could force the alienated problems to get resolved for amazing future developments!

It’s built for Azure, would mean refactoring the backend.

Also I don’t think we’d save that much.

On a side note I'm still very excited to see the future direction of neos as I've still got massive growing community focused on vr fitness and vr biking. So really excited for the future of neos and the apps I'm working on.

I’m glad to read you Karel. Is cool to know about your background on VR hardware.

I’m also impressed on how expensive is to keep Neos running. I wonder how you guys get the money to pay for the servers 😅

Have you looked for investment in Silicon Valley? Asia and the US investors are investing like crazy in metaverse companies.

Totally we just have to figure this out. I’m sure wel’ll make it trough.

Yes our seed investor was Rothenberg Ventures we lived in San Francisco and LA for a while.

I wish you guys in the Neos team the best and wi celebrate when the new UI arrive

We had hundreds of talks with investors but all of them said no due to our UX and intent to open source. Once you say that it’s over 😄

We don’t use virtual machines that much its native cloud apps.

Are you still negotiating with the CTO? Is there any progress?

He is hell-bent on the company saying that all of Neos code is his personal ownerhip which the company obviously cannot do as it’s against its interest.

I’ve proposed many alternatives but no takers.

Do you know what they are currently doing with the code?

Yeah mostly nothing

The last time we spoke about it I got pitched a crazy idea to create our own rendering engine instead of relying on Unity for that. Which is a great idea in general but not at the expanse of not solving the huge amount of existing problems.

I was afraid that you don't know about it. You should certainly find out.

I think the reason is that being an architectural astronaut as Carmack calls it is very fun but actually perfecting and optimizing something is what is needed.

We need more devs of that kind and the prerequisite is good funding.

I know, I’ve even pitched to Froox that he can do a spinoff company that Neos would finance.

Ahh, that sounds good

Not as crazy as you think...

Transparency is key to get this sorted out properly

Pretty crazy business wise as we have plenty more pressing problems. From an architectural point of view very desirable in the long term but also very expensive to maintain. Graphic drivers are probably one of the biggest shitshows there are with not even their devs knowing too well how it works 😄

Lot of the time the know how leaves with the person there

Pretty crazy nowadays to write an own graphics engine from scratch

One of neos's biggest problems right now is unity i'd say, because well, it's quite limiting. that's my opinion because i've worked with a lot of transparent materials

Transparency is always a nightmare in any engine.... but generally speaking, Unity is very... weird by default with it.

Indeed.

You are so silly

I mean transparency in the sense of communication

The other issue is that you become bound by its limits. That's why HiFi wrote a fully custom... everything. When trackers came out, they were easy to add because the engine was fully laid out and expandable.

I know but i got reminded of my main gripe with neos's rendering right now lol

There are for sure advanatages of doing everything ourselves but creating and mostly maintaining an engine like that is a huge expensive undertaking. Not mentioning all the comforts of Unity lost like SDKs.

Every hw manucacturer provides a Unity SDK to implement.

And, it might be a liability, if only one person knows how to develop that engine

Okay, but what if we want to do *more* then unity allows?

Not mentioning standalone which might very well be the future of VR.

Yeah lets do it when the easy stuff like UX and funding is solved. Why bet the company now when we can do that later.

It’s very easy to bankrupt a thing, the hard part is not to.

But neos is it's own engine, I feel like if a unity Neos thing was made, then that would be too dependent on Unity. Currently, Neos's link to unity is very malleable, due to Neos not being dependant on it.

or something along the lines of that

Neos is its own engine in terms of data format and networking which is quite unique.

Rendering engine is a completely another can of worms.

And it already is written in a way for the Unity part to be replaceable, due to implementable components. It's a neat system that somehow makes the framework pluggable

Yes. Exactly my point.

Which btw made Headless possible

Yes Neos can use any rendering engine. We can switch to Unreal or Godot its flexible in that way.

You cannot switch to Unreal, sorry about that reality check

It basically just says please render this and this here.

?????????????????????

Stride might be a better example of a possible engine

The physics is Bepu also separate of the rendering

However, there had been feature creep into Neos, that kind of has dependencies on quirks of Unity

There actually is an Unreal dev build 😄

Why not

It works ina looser way but imagine for example a headless telling unreal what to render, its fundamentally the same

Even if technically possible, the Unreal license doesn't allow anything that recreates features from the development kit to run in runtime AFAIK, I can be wrong on that

There are Unreal realtime loaders in their asset store the engine is capable

But, you cannot have a dev tip

Licensing is interesting there for sure

You could if they agree

Also it doesnt have to be the only build

I'm... more confused how you could take an engine composed in C# and have it work with a C++ based system... even if just for the rendering pipeline... That's a wrapper I wouldn't want to even fathom

It is possible. I was even thinking of writing rendering engine in Rust and using a .NET runtime for all the logic

There are two ways - rewrite it or keep them separate. Both with upsides and downsides

Wrapper might be the third one 😄

What if the features you want isn't in any other engines?

Rendering features?

How about the other way imagine how many features will be missing when we do our own rendering

Mostly stuff that can be done in real-time, that's what i mean

Yeah like Lumen or Nanite

Those are huge undertakings

I mean making shaders in game, not lumen or nanite.

Would always look crappy in comparison to game engines

Who have whole well funded departments for rendering

The idea since the beginning was to make parallel baking part of the process

The point is sure lets do rendering keep both builds see how feasable it is but in a situation when cloud doesnt hang by a thread.

Because rendering is not that useful if theres nothing to render.

That's actually one bottleneck I recently saw. Somehow the networking code manages to take up a lot of frame time. For a reason I haven't found out yet

Haha is it DDoSing its own cloud? Would explain the cloud costs 😄

but most lag is from when content is hosted locally... and usually when receiving a large amount of init chunk data...

How would it look crappy?

Also, unrelated but there's one thing i also need to ask you karel. Why are you still trying to cling onto Neos?

What do you gain from this? This is a genuine question. What do you want for Neos?

You guys we don’t solve existing problems at Neos we just start new projects creating more problems instead, you have it all backwards 😄

Rendering is doing progressively smarter math to paint pixels. Both for realtime and raytracing. You need a ot of smart people to make it look nice and keep up with new hw and drivers.

Well I founded the company and run it. The company provides the cloud and Neos build on Steam. I kinda have to continue for Neos to work. 😄

I would love to be replaced by another CEO but we are not in a situation to be able to afford one.

Okay, how about Froox if you want to be replaced? He actually created Neos.

While I admire Frooxes technical skills very much he has no understanding of financials or how companies work. I was unable to explain even basic stuff like the difference between a legal and physical entity, run rates. It’s not that hes not smart enough, on the contrary. It’s so boring to him that his brain just goes brrrrrrr to something more interesting.

We need someone with business experience and good track record. A business degree like I have would be nice as well.

I'm sure froox can ask some people on the Neos team if they have problems, honestly.

Yeah thats called a puppet CEO that never goes well. The person has to be able and willing to run a business.

Honestly i still feel like you're trying to find ways to stay CEO, when the Neos team + froox wants to go their own way, It's not worth it, and they will not budge. it honestly feels like you're holding us hostage, the core community that actually plays the game almost daily. How can you say it won't go well when it's not going well right now?

I think actually the CTO is holding you hostage. My role as CEO is making sure cloud is paid which it is. CTO is supposed to do updates which he doesnt.

If I don’t pay cloud this month who will?

Ever thought of the reason why he isn't updating the game?

This also sounds like you holding us hostage.

If he wants a different CEO he is supposed to propose one. I like the idea and our investors would cersinly like it as well and would vote for it on a board meeting.

Not to throw public tantrums and stop doing updates

There is a process for that in a company

That just shows the level of understanding that is missing

they probably HAVE tried to talk to you.

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Not really, Frooxius asked me to do something I legally can’t (say code is his personal ownerhip, imagine how this looks from the point of our investors and their rights) and then declined to talk about anything else/constructive

Fire the CTO and hire a new dev team. easy

Yes I’m the only one with access to our bank accounts and private keys. If I have access to Nex or Geenz we’d be bankrupt in about two weeks.

I don’t want to fire my co-founder. Who says we dont have multiple dev teams. 😉

Jesus first of the buy backs were caused by Froox tantrum. Second it would be a rug pull if we take ICO money and then not help holders when price collapses. Third its not easy for the company to move crypto to governmnet money you get KYCd, AMMAd and taxed to hell.

None

I do know someone who'd be find the position of CEO to be enticing, but they'd prefer to discuss the numbers more specifically before accepting such a role. They find the server cost situation concerning, especially if it has surpassed the general income. I'm guessing just have them email hello@neos.com?

However, Frooxius had to put things right after your mistakes. Call it a tantrum... I call it damage control

Well looking at the price is not everything, a lot of people sold NCR for much better prices than they would otherwise without an buyback. Looking out for your investors and coin holders is a huge part of running a business which too little people seem to understand.

Buy backs, even though a thing to control damage, are not a way to save NCR. Staking also isn't a thing to help NCR. Utility would, but that'd require some work no one seems to be willing to do currently

Believe me I tried hiring people for Ethereum, noone wants it. Everyone wants government money instead. Its not that simple.

Government wants fiat for the taxes owed. That's why people still work for government money

What damage exactly did he prevent? What mistakes?

True but its fairly simple for a person to convert crypto to fiat. Not for a company. Still almost noone seems to be willing to do it.

The one thing I know off hand right now is, that accidental signature on the newest whitepaper that wasn't supposed to be there

Certainly none of our contractors.

It wasnt s signature it was a text moved from header to bottom which I didnt even do

However it happened, it evoked a response. It would have been wrong to stay silent

Yeah a prrety bad one

Yes I can elaborate

Great problem solved 😁

WTH is Management and Governance?

Thats mostly indexing, logs, analytics I think. However that is more CTO question than CEO.

I'd ask that the CFO instead

What a paradise planet things would be if we had CFO 🙏 god willing one day 😄

Theres lot of kinds of analytics, the grouping doesn't make all that much sense it depends on the service we use multiple.

from azure "Azure provides a range of services and tools to help you manage and govern your resources, including monitoring and alerts, access and identity management, policy enforcement, and cost optimization. These services are designed to help you manage and secure your resources effectively, and ensure compliance with regulatory requirements.

The "management and governance" fee covers the cost of providing these services and tools to you, and may vary depending on the number and type of resources you have deployed in Azure. You can find more information about your invoice and the specific charges associated with your Azure usage in your Azure portal or through your Azure billing account.

I see

I still wonder if all those Management and Governance are justified

You think Froox racked up the bills intentionally to bankrupt the company or what?

EU based.... lots and lots of regulations to follow...

I’m sure there is an explanation on what it is

No, not even implying any of that

So what are you implying that Azure billed us for nothing?

now that's a bit of a stretch it depends on azure and speculating as the CEO is definitely not a good look. try to stay professional probably contact azure and ask for a Itemised bill for all the areas for governance since your name is on the bill

Jesus again the ssl certificate problem was because our host declined service because of repeated ddos attacks

Not implying anything, I'm just wondering what the services are that go into that position and why they are necessary

It was just expired, simple

We had an Azure expert take a look and he said thats normal but the app (Neos) seems very poorly optimized

Too many requests per second

That is a guy that does only Azure clouds fo a living

That was my question as well

He said the grouping doesnt make that much sense

You could check what that position is actually made of in azure portal

Not really it says the same thing

He had full access to our cloud as I do

It doesn't crack the position down in individual parts? It does for me so far

as ive said contact azure since your name is on the bill and ask for a itemised bill for all areas on what they explicitly are spending it on.

You can send your screen I will send ours theres lot of stuff in the backend

Sure send me how it looks I will, I’m sure the guy did all that

Hes certified got references all that jazz

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I'm totally confused now, as my bill looks completely different

...and I don't use Azure...

He also said our database is seriously shot a lot of out of spec records that will be a nightmare sooner or later

Why solving that though when we can fuck around reinventing how rendering is none

Froox has always made it very clear that switching areas of work is hard for him and damages flow, so not really

We dont have another Azure dev than Froox

Froox would never miss such fun, also being dependent on Geenz doesnt sound like a great place for a business

There's a lot of context switching happening in .NET anyway already

except we are talking about different kinds of context switching

Being dependent on a single person, who knows the internals of a critical part of a project, is never a good idea. If they are the only one knowing this

Even if we could afford the huge salary he demanded which we cant unless its in Ethereum or NCR

Geenz

Yes that happened way back when we had a big zero on the bank

Later I proposed him a salary increase and even to buy a house for him with a morgage he could afford thanks to the higher salary

He declined

And the high salary is normal for US, as they have to pay all those taxes and insurances themselves from what they earn. That is very different from EU citizens, where most of these are already deducted from their salaries

Being dependent on state pension is a risky thing as our national system is in dire condition. I explained that having a property would help him in the future. Of course no takers.

Yes Geenz wanted salary of a Seattle startup. We are not a Seattle startup cant afford it for the reasons I explained above. Seattle startups cater to their investors we dont.

I'd probably have declined that offer as well. Having a morgage also means, I rely on having a secure job and I might be bound

Sure why not he could taken at least the salary.

Btw you can always sell a house even if there is mortgage. The buyer just overtakes it or gets it refinanced.

He had a salary albeit small same as mine.

This doesn't match with what was said before, like 2-3 years ago

Not sure I can post the contract here probs not because of GDPR. You would have to have his allowance for that.

This is certainly not the case, thats not written by me

I could black our things in the contract and then post it

Certainly not correct

I still wonder who you liked on that team

This is my job I have plenty friends IRL

When you start mixing the two it gets ugly as it gotten for Froox

You fire a friend because hes not doing s good job?

What a nice situation the be in

Your right, people who do work together do build friendships in some way, but it's normally a professional friendship, but you'd still go for a beer sometimes

That works great for peers like me and Froox or Geenz and Nex

However it gets more complicated vertically

One reason companies don't like families getting involved or getting positions in the same place/dept

Being a friend or lover of your employee is a very tricky business

Haha Geenz is not a friend of Froox?

Cmon

I said OR

Ok

With the few things I've seen, I'd say, certainly not. However I haven't seen much

Understandable

Yeah I would say many on what is called Team Neos are close friends if not more

Theres certainly been plenty of lovemaking in Neos

It looks very much like they are friends on the surface. Sorry some language barrier

Like any platform, SL being the big one

I don't think you did

Bit too much for my taste frankly but its ok when its private and nobody is harrased

And even there the investors are angry about that

And payment processing companies mostly

Thats why investors care so much

And in our case also schools as they use Neos

I don't even get why they care so much about this so natural thing

Why I care about being able to accept payments?

Why the payment processors care so much

Oh I see

Because they have a relationship with banks on one hand and Visa/MasterCard and Amex on the other

And those decline service in some cases

...then use Tilia? No one seems to have an issue with them, and their primary related platform is basically the granddad of all controversial online stuff back in the day.

Finance really looks like an issue currently

Yeah we need to get our act together

Being kicked out of Patreon is our smallest issue right now

...why would you get kicked off Patreon?

But would be unfortunate nontheless

If their payment processor Payonner complains were out in 2 seconds

....about what? Adult content?

There lot of kinds of adult content not a simple

Some is tolerated some totally not

Yes because then we can fully decentralize and no longer care about centralized payment processing

A spinoff charity can do that independently

@.@ confusion

Yes that is why we need a CEO that understands how stuff works

You certainly need a CEO who understands how stuff works, even right now

Send applications to karelwantsout@neos.com thank you

Did... you really just spin up that inbox?

We have a domain bin setup where everything goes thats not valid address

Catch all no doubt

It will be received

Searchable

Yes I would like that I’m too stressed expecting kids I want out

It stopped being bearable about three years ago

Oh... uh, congrats.

I really hope for a new CEO to be good for the job

Me too Neos and its community deserves a great one

I think that I would wait forever as there is no incentive for s capable CEO right now to take on Neos. We first need to get our act together.

Yes and that seems like a contradiction if you want a new CEO you shouldnt make it less enticing for him or her to join

I want out but only if Neos is in good hands. I own a lot to everyone involved to go out lights shut.

So what if you had someone who is interested in helping while taking no payment from you at the moment until things start to go into the right direction?

Yes thats why I offered him he can found a company that Neos will finance to see if he’s up to it.

I thought that was already obvious, why that doesn't work

My goal personally for neos is to have it as one of the best leading industry standards of VR. Genuinely.

I don’t want to bet the company on Frooxes business skills.

Only if he can prove himself first by running a subsidiary or partner company.

You need someone with a business mindset as well as an understanding of the current market for both major consumer as well as major business practices, correct?

Would be a bad person, if they were like that, no longer worrying about the company when leaving

Yes but the company is also my legacy I’ve been the CEO and co-counder for almost 10 years now

This is where things get interesting because it's built on the idea of wanting something best for both the passionate as well as the ones who have significant amount of capital to help see the vision.

Im not abandoning the ship when it goes down like a rat

Yeah, you can do that, if you know your "child" is in good hands

I’m not sure about both parts of that statement 😅

But in the end my opinion doesnt matter that much im not a majority owner

As an emloyee I’m not leaving without proper replacement when things are rough

Yes someone a majority of shareholders will want

I think at this point everyone would like to see a new one

Without the historic baggage due to our struggles over the years

Hmm.. this makes me think of when my fitness project on vrchat got compared to the entirety of meta for having legs when the general masses of users only thought that people were floating torsos just to find out people workout in group training sessions together. There's alot of ways to make this work out and have you still be co owner etc. Give me some time to look into options and my network and considering the weight of what goes on, my expertise specifically is in VR use case technologies and what the general public want with vr. I just build things that make vr more desirable for the general public to use and want to use more frequently.

So even just looking at the full project for Neos VR, I'm just thinking in terms of "how do we lead operations in a direction that makes more people want to use our platform" which I can think of several ideas of how to gauge that interest. for the userbase. While using examples of what has worked on 'similar' platforms.

Personally I'm motivated for a better future for neos.

I think Neos needs an overhaul completely to make it palatable for everyone interested in VR first. Cater to creators to have them create content, that people want to explore. Open gates for everyone to simply put on their VR headset, start Neos on steam, select and avatar and go exploring

And for the investment part, companies should be able to buy in for having their products be in virtual exhibits, that people can visit. One idea would be to have car companies have their cars replicated in VR for people to explore and maybe have some semi-realistic driving experience with them

It was on the roadmap for about 5 years and everytime I wanted to hire a UX expert it was vetoed

Another popular activity I've seen in Neos would be driving cars. That might be something where NCR might come in handy, by paying licensing to companies, to have their cars being part of the racing track simulation

Definitely not ad space. People don't want ads

I'm thinking more of exhibits. Let's think of them like ad space in the world browser, just not called ads

it pretty much is, yes

One of the major drawbacks from my 20k hours in vr platforms I've noticed with some platforms is lack of personal user safety. As well as advertising for the community to help it grow in a way that helps bring users together. A struggle with the vr platforms that people have that I've noticed alot is trying to advertise too much "who" is here and not "why should anyone be here" and a focused direction on streamlining ease of use and options with developments are there they just need to be actualized to help people want to come to the platform and use it more frequently.

You want to ask the people who use the platform the most and you know have a genuine desire to make the platform grow, "Hey guys, what do you want?" Starting with your team, down to your moderators to your general community. You have to ask the questions. You need to work with the opinions of what the team wants and be willing to accept a few hits to any possible ego or knowledge of understanding something better than others around you and trying to take in what everyone wants to re structure the building process of the platform.

I guess another major problem is time frame and how 'fast' things need to be actualized before investors start to want to pull the plug on the project.

So far, I have seen, if you have the users, you keep users. People stay, because their friends are on the platform, not because the platform is any good

I'd even use "The Universe" as an example about what kind of exhibitions companies can put into Neos. The more fun the experiences are, the more people want to see it

Well, that's not entirely true. Because we've seen even with for example eac and VRC, people split across multiple platforms causing a massive rift in who went where and as updates happened over the years people went back to vrc.

Not to say that people didn't stay in places like Neos and Chillout VR, which Chill out has seen some very interesting advancements over the years but this is to speak on another topic that isn't spoken on most. the 'quiet majority' most of the people who say the least would be the ultimately most impactful because people just wanna live their lives and just hope that their space is safe and what they want from and of it. Community retention is gained through letting your community speak so freely of any situation.

yes this exactly! No one cares until you can give them a reason to begin to.

But that can only go so far and you can only do so much, you have to entice the major investors who are usually also part of that quiet majority and sometimes without question can just pull a major part of your funding because 'they just felt like it'

I don't get why one would like to invest into VRChat, when Neos is so much more attractive

userbase.

And I think, open-source could also be sold to investors, given, they want to actually use the VR space for themselves

Neos isn't just a socializing platform. And besides Classroom. It can definitely help in many other spaces, where 3D models of things help in developing

At that rate you might as well just make neos it's own coding platform like unity or unreal. But High Fidelity tried open source and we now never hear about it.

Was Hi-Fi anything more than conferencing solution?

As you can see with the company, they completely settled down to real world conferencing hardware for VoIP devices

And Neos can certainly provide a good conferencing solution as well. Even with the ability to be your real self as avatar with the new 3D scanning technologies, that exist already

Why wouldn't you want your vr platform to focus on socializing? We've established the building and teaching aspects and functionality of teaching within the scope of possibility is of course a thing. But if that's all it's for then that's not what the major aspects of the world really just want. If you want a vr super platform you have to encompass all of the aspects of what people want from gaming, creating, coding, working, etc. And as of right now, the general masses want socialization and games and a strong sense of community and personal safety while interacting with others.

Hi-Fi was supposed to be so much more than just this.

We have this problem, which is financing and also we need investors

Think about how Sony's mocapi project that worked with vrchat vs meta. Meta has tremendous funding budget of 26 billion. And didn't release the idea of having legs in a platform until October 2022? Companies need to see potential and uses before they'll want to support and sponsor something and investors need to see that the platform is going in a healthy enough direction to actually turn a profit for the future.

Neos is literally the highest potential for the best metaverse platform period. It just is.

Across thousands of hours of research into vr and platform use cases. It's just missing some critical features that will make people want to use the platform, including businesses to open up to the idea of actually making sales through the platform itself.

Just more things to put on the docket of studying for my own research since again, all I want for Neos is for it to succeed because if it does better, everything else in the vr world has to be better as well and for me being the enthusiast and now a business owner that operates solely through vr, I want vr to go further, much faster than it's going right now because I know with the right money in the right hands it can exactly do that.

None

I also think the historic baggage is stopping neos a bit, but really its just ownership of the code. There is no easy solution beside absolut ownership of one side OR giving both sides a copy and calling it even. The world where there is a new CEO and it suddenly works? I don't see that happening. Froox probably doesn't want to invest his time into something he doesn't really own, its his child, he doesn't want to be payed for it, he wants to have control of it.

Sure this is a business, but thats the perspective from the outside. I am a developer, i have a project (a game) i worked for 15 years on, and i know that there is no price on that amount of personal investment

That is not a good idea though, it might really be better to keep the company together and replace the CEO

Hey, surprise me ;) Sure i mean there is a lot of bad blood, like really bad blood that prevents any of the sides trusting each other. Replacing the CEO? Sure could help, but in my mind it will probably not solve the underlying problem.

The name neos means nothing, its the system that is revolutionary, all that timeinvestment that lead to this unique system. If its called neos or trilly or blablub (i am making that up, don't search it)

Doesn't really mather

Indeed, however there is so much more behind it

Yea well, i also don't want to lose all the years i did things in neos. Making friends, making my first avatars, codes, interfaces... whole games out of items (i would never have thought it possible, but the way to program in neos is unlike anything i even expected or learned before)

But in the end its just code and a name, and the name really doesn't mather

It isn't about the name though

The community will move, the hardware is replaceable, hey its 99% in a cloud... it even runs offline and you can create your own neos with some slight changes to configurations

Really, this has just to go forward, it doesn't even mather how

None

Can’t believe we waste so much time

Froox knows nothing about business and ruin a 1 b mcap project share a CEO title ？LMAO

I don’t care my bag down 20x but don’t sell even one ncr

the only bags are the ones under my eyes after having to read all that

Someone has made a Godot library that could be used as the new rendering engine

It's looking really good

The Godot library is for making Godot directly work with c#

Moving to Godot rendering is the best option with libgodotsharp it makes it much easier to connect only the parts needed without needing to run the whole Godot engine in the background

Godot 😋