I guess that would be simplest solution although I am curious how effective that is. Renaming worked for blender just fine so perhaps it is possible but I think some information is lost this way because for instance, the details such as outlines were not imported properly. (Probably more my lack of know-how than anything else.) Also there is some strange behaviour when it's turned into an avatar in Neos. 😁

They always told me I had crazy eyes...

I know CATS has some VROID optimizations, and I've heard from past stories that native VROID models tend to... act weird unless you tweak them in advance.

oh, that. I've seen that a lot. It's adjustable in the eye manager. Unity uploaded avatars have the maximum angles specified during setup. Neos, uh... well... doesn't do this.

Yes I think so, I tried that CATS plug-in last night but I think there are probably more issues with that model than armature. It kind of broke the whole thing down 😁. Nevermind, it's part of learning. However, what is most important is that we identify which parts of the avatar creation process are the most painful, so they can be iterated on in the future. I think some people would appreciate little less steep learning curve and less customisation while others enjoy digging deep in scripting and all that jazz. I love Neos for that reason. It's like this Swiss knife of VR 😁

aaaah okay, that makes sense. Thanks!

"Look at me, with your special eyes!"

😁

Some stuff to ponder..I have been watching the latest video of Thrill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5DVE0Wq94E . At the end he talks about "metaverse hype" and I was wondering if you guys feel the same way. Is the term "metaverse" overused? Do you think that it has gotten bad connotations? I often avoid it when explaining to people what Neos is.

I think we have this habit as humans... labelling things, which is necessary for us to make sense to the environment we live in, but also can be limiting as once there is a label, you lock yourself into some sort of definition and things are not fluid anymore. And there are expectations and assumptions.

But fortunately Neos has been around way before metaverse was marketed to us as "the next big thing" and I am confident that it will withstand the pressure of this label - because it has value for users.
People go into great lenghts of learning how to work with Neos, because even though it can be overwhelming, they see the value.

hmm....

Oh the term is definitely overused, although I feel like it is has been calming down as its value has become...less interesting I suppose. Oversaturated term doesn't mean much anymore for marketing

Yes I totally agree. I think the wave of wanna-be metaverses where people promise everything and nothing is hopefully over.

I think Neos has plenty of development timeline ahead of it to just kinda see past the term. Maybe in the future the word can be used sanely again to describe Neos

Or maybe in the future it will be Neos to describe metaverse😉

Here's my take on it, being the oldie I am with "the metaverse," is that no one has it figured out. Like, no one. Part of it is because that's like saying that Google, Amazon, and other website services are somehow the world wide web.
When I have envisioned the metaverse, back when I was compiling clients to early access back in 2016 (in Fedora Linux because the Windows build was terrible), I always viewed it as an agreed upon protocol between everyone. The idea being that if I laser onto an entity, be it in Desktop, VR, or by action caused by some other device, that the message is sent to a system and acted upon in events as scripted by the connected service. Objects that are sent for displaying are all following an agreed upon format (GLTF) and the textures are follow ups to the old W3's standard (JPG,GIF,PNG,etc.) but also ones meant to further compliment the systems we have now (KTX).

Right now, when I spin up a web server, I can choose from Nginx, Apache, or just flat out code my own. As long as I speak HTTP at minimum, then I can assume any web browser who speaks the same protocol can talk with my server. Any client who speaks HTTP can speak with any web server as well. As such, we have not one web browser, but many. Chrome, Edge, Mozilla, Brave, and even just the ability to render the page in plain text with Lynx, means that transfer of information is in agreement with everyone.

From the technical term, I'd have to agree that Neos is not a metaverse either. Even Neos has to rely on other services to run. I do wonder what the extreme future plans of neos are, if it ever will become some sort of decentralized tool. (Which right now I'd say it never will, buuuut I don't know that)

I suppose the Neos engine is built to be modular

More or less. Even Second Life cannot hold that title, despite being open source. Just releasing the source code doesn't magically mean you are now an open protocol. Explanations, deep dives on how packets work, the API of what makes a system function are all critical.
Not to mention, the implications of security. Currently, only certain pieces of identity data can be sent to servers. As the 'metaverse' seems to be commonly envisioned, the communication is more bidirectional than just a one way 'here's your web page'. Walk around in any platform, and your actions get sent back to then be relayed to others. The more sensors we attach, the more data we give, and this is broadcasted data. We freak out now when so much as a geolocation is given out, but now imagine our exact movements, facial expressions, and all that are technically all out there, and for anyone to collect.

All true, but from all VR softwares i tried, neos comes the closest to "do whatever you like with it". You can mod it with pure c#, you can even go online on the public servers with added binaries (you have to make sure it doesn't desyncs, that on you), you can even completly change how it works and open it with an own service server OR even simply local without any internet service attached

The wiki even gives you help for making "your own vr experience" with it

unconnected to the neos servers/world

I'm... not sure I can exactly delve into my background with that, but put simply: Seen it before, and while true, that isn't enough.

like a learning environment for schools in a local, closed network

Yes I agree it's an absolutely terrifying idea. I've seen Phillip Rosedale mention it a lot in his latest interviews, too. Imagine how smart the metaverse advertising will get, if we allow it.
You'll have no idea what's genuine and what's being served to you by algorithms and AI. Decentralisation is important. But I would argue that complete 100% decentralisation is also not achievable. It's like all the current DAOs of the world. We know that the system we currently have is not good enough but do I think that putting everyhing on blockchain and making every single aspect of our existence decentralised? No. We are still figuring it out. The same way I don't think we can have an accurate picture of what will become of "metaverse"

Reminds me heavily of back when there he discussed towards having your movements recorded and sort of 'averaged' out, so that when in Desktop mode or a non-VR system, your 'body' movements were faked to help create a unique animation set, specific to yourself.

But for sure it's all about interoperability. I think that is what you are getting at here. It needs to be all interconnected. We need to be able to access our virtual content from anywhere, anytime. Until then it's not a real metaverse.

Yes I think that is the one I watched too. And where he also talks about aesthetic in virtual reality no? About how most of people prefer the "average looking avatars" and they find them most attractive/beauriful in comparison with something unique and specific. That is going to totally mess with our sense of body image.

that must have been back during the times he was going to Siggraph, but I only 'watched' one, and that was because I was in the audience. The other times I just talked to him directly about it in-world or on Slack

I can't honestly put my finger on the year, though. It could have been around early 2018 or late 2017. It was around the time when a cloud based voice transcription service was being tinkered with, and thus the discussion on AI systems and how they can be integrated came up

True, but I could see others seeing an opportunity here of creating a similar project but with much easier adoption curve. Like giving an opportunity to program using already popular coding languages

As Neos is gridlocked regards to development while gaining popularity, this risk increases

I know a group is trying to bring back a platform that used javascript as its scripting language, but being similar and being actually used aren't the same.

If a platform doesn't support WASM or USD I think in the future it's pretty much sunk

Javascript would be great addition to Neos as well, just turn it into logix in the end

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Logix is cool, but it definitely has room for improvement. Readability could be increased just by having nodes lock to a 2d plane.

Id like some native tools for sorting/grabbing/organizating logix as well.
Eventually

Redprint

The red print tip will also do box selection, rotation and comments.

Normalize commenting LogiX IMHO :3

In some sense, other node based visual programming systems already offer this
https://imgur.com/3M7SAMp

Make sure you're keeping in mind that Logix in its current state isn't finished.

I've seen some users say Logix should be removed because it doesn't have xyz, when it just isn't finished. There's a difference between "We need a replacement because Logix is bad" and "We'd like alternative languages"

For me, I'd prefer to keep Logix, but I can see lateral ways to improve it, while keeping its intended spirit, if you will. So far, any limitations I've run into are strictly with the platform itself, and only because others have made the task less tedius. However, those haven't really stopped me from doing the usual "Just work around it" solution

I'm used to working with limited features and making the most of it. In some regards, I almost say that's what has caused such discord with some creators, who grew up with every paint color available, but not realizing people have mixed their own colors forever and find the task inconvenient when presented as the only option.

Even on its finished state it would be great to offer other languages that can be written and compile to logix

exactly my point

Home assistant?

Yes

Do you know node Red good? I need help with a Projekt.

A small amount. Enough to more easily handle my automations.

Maby you can help i want to try Sendung the data/worldcolor1 with websoket to my nod Red, the websoket is not the problem but my problem is to covert the incoming stream to colors for lamps

Hmm.. I'll look into it. Depends on how the RGB lights work, but I have some strips connected, so I can figure it out after the funeral service I am going to

Yes of course, take your time. I am using wled a lot

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contract

?

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does the mediation or lawsuit begin ?

Hi Hualili!

If you are referring to the current dispute, when we have an update, we'll share it via all our official channels. ☺️

In the meantime, we hope that you enjoy Neos. And if you have any platform/NCR related comments I’m sure people here or on Discord will be happy to chat ☺️

Lol

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Hello all. Happy Monday 😊Is anyone looking to go to the TGS next week? https://tgs.nikkeibp.co.jp/tgs/2022/en/ . I think it will be a nice event. I am not able to go (physically) unfortunatelly but I think they also do VR event in a paralel. Might be worth checking out.😊

Sounds kool is anybody YouTubing the event.

Oh, cool! Thanks for sharing this, Andrea!

Would it be possible to come up with some kind of joint update about where are things heading? Or will the community just have to be patient and wait for what seems like a year or more in total darkness?

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Is Neos working with Somnium Space behind the scenes? 👀

Too much function in the Frooxius game engine for it to be a scam 🙄 come on meow!

Karel

Don't think so. Pretty much no official mention of it in discord so fairly safe to say no they aren't.

No point, Somnium Space is a ghost town with barely any users.

NEOS has 300 users online right now, what do we need Somnium for?

300？

not1000?

ye usually 300-400 daily, weekends boosting that

Decentraland and Cryptovoxels has less right now.

a lot of the metaverse space in crypto is still unpopulated, NEOS is booming in comparison.

Concurrent user numbers were only that high during the temporary influx after VRChat announced and released EAC. They've gone down but there has been a net gain of users since then.

I've been told that VRChat users have already found ways around EAC, so anyone who's willing to continue breaking that rule are likely doing so.

...sadly so. I have been getting messaged by friends of mine who don't even want to go near Neos, yet have told me the number of issues on VRChat have gotten very out of control.

Gm

Gm

How come they want to avoid Neos?

Varying reasons.

1) Most friends of mine have potato PCs, so despite owning an HMD, they can't really use Neos.
2) The ongoing situation has them weary about rejoining.
3) They want to have their avatars work exactly as it did advertised. This means that the only way to get them to work as such is if I help them out. Problem is that I'm busy enough as is, and they don't exactly know/trust other people.
4) Due to the rules of the telegram group, I can't really explain #4 as it could be viewed as fud.

Another reason to add is that friend circles are anchors, unless the lead of the circle or the majority of the circle wants to switch platforms, users tend to keep to the same platform.

We saw an influx of folks but I asked if it was just their decision to try Neos or their entire group is trying Neos and many responded that they were by themselves with one or two others - but the majority of their friends were still on VRChat.

For me, I was on VRChat for about 6 months before another friend said I should try Neos. I had very few people I regularly hung out regularly with on VRChat so my move to Neos was easy for me, but if had a lot of friends on VRChat, I might have never moved to Neos.

There's also stereotypes of Neos users that all we want to do is build (I mean, they're not wrong..) but there are a lot of VR users that prefer to just consume content and one could easily argue that there's more to consume on VRChat

I can agree with those points. It's sadly also what creates a larger chunk of my frustration. It's a cycle that self fulfills itself: less content, so less people. less people, so less content. This occurred before and instead of creating agreements to longer lasting things, most events (of the past elsewhere) were all in regards to 'large cash money' prizes.

Even outside of that, a major issue is that bringing avatars into Neos is both easier and harder. It's easy from a generic standpoint, but people who do have avatars usually have them with functions and systems. These don't always translate over well, since some can be platform dependant. In some way, you could see this being an issue in both directions: A neos avatar may have functions VRC can't even fathom, but a VRC avatar might have an easier time adding a specific function than doing the same in Neos.

And yes, I know you can do things like JSON loading sorcery with mods for Neos, but that's involving extra steps on top of the extra steps, assuming said extra steps on either side are willing to be followed or even exist.

despite (if I remember) Chillout having slightly lower numbers, people can directly port content to it because it's all within the Unity scene editor with just a change in SDK. Neos doesn't have this luxory, and so people aren't just seperated from their friends, but also what some have come to acknowledge as their identity. Even then, they might not have been the ones to setup their avatar in the first place, and thus have no idea where to even start.

This happened with both HiFi and Sansar, who tried to appeal to the Second Life crowd to migrate over. People were unwilling to leave SL for better experiences because their avatars and content were locked to their platform of origin. In some way, Neos faces the same issue.

Slightly related, but not really: In a recent tweet regarding VRChat avatar ripping (the thing that got my IMs blaring), someone pointed out a fact I actually didn't think about, and that was an observation that many people who were using public avatars were Quest users. While this could be just due to the age demographic, someone pointed out that because the Quest doesn't require a PC, people who are using it might not have a system ready (or willing) to run the Unity editor, and thus cannot upload avatars themselves, even if they can afford them. Different topic, but just a strange observation that makes some sense.

And the lack of custom shaders.. I've heard how disappointed some users are that their avatar won't look the same as it does in VRChat. I even helped users import avatars that were visually broken because they depended on some bizarre projection shader and going without it would break the character.

This is the whole argument for interoperability and possibly why platforms like Ready Player Me have secured so much funding and interest.

The more custom a platform becomes the less likely it will appeal if you can move seamlessly across different worlds

Can't *

I remember RPM from its infancy days. Hell, I fixed the bridging problem when it was on HiFi. It was honestly something they should have fixed, since it was kind of outside the platform's control... but the TLDR was I could get avatars to properly work on it, back when it had the VRC portal and the HiFi portal

IN a way, this is also why I don't like many VRC avatars: shaders haven't become an addition to an avatar, but rather a bandaid to bad and sloppy designs. It's like Second Life and normal maps... namely the lack of them being used and everyone worshipping subdivide like it is a new religion. As a result, everything there was mega high poly... and was why porting to Sansar and the like wasn't an option. In a sense, VRC avatars only work in VRC at times because they were made with janky design in mind, rather than a correct workflow.

They've just raised about 50m, they have so many brands working with them now.
My main problem with all these one size fits all solutions is they're all human avatars.
And avatars need to be where all permissions and personal info is set for portability etc.
Avatars are your metaverse identity platform, not wallets.

In addition, too much of RPM's rigging is... questionable. I get it's automated, but even some things that are done as templates.. like, there shouldn't be these kind of issues. I've had broken wrists and unrigged vertices be the big ones

For you and me this is important, for people in marketing who want their Tommy Hilfiger t-shirt to sell to people they don't care.

And for investors who are clueless they just see dollar signs when a big brand signs up.

sadly so. Which is often a shame, because just a few tweaks and it'd be fixed. I've often considerred looking into 'simple' fixes for RPM avatars, such as detail maps to liven them up, but it's been a mixed bag. It's been a far fall from grace from their earlier years

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Hi there,who can i contact with business cooperation?

Thx

Hi, any business queries should go to hello@neos.com. Many thanks😊

Sry i didn't copy that link

Sorry I missed click

Very sad to learn this morning that Queen Elizabeth II, has passed away. My condolences are with all of you community members of the United Kingdom. 🖤

I think regardless of your stand on the monarchy, she was an example of grace, resilience and strength and such an iconic example of leadership for the whole world.

That's like the 5th time someone mentioned PV with no explanation, what is PV?

Photovoltaic is the only PV I know

PV?

Ah ok ! So @Anonimos333 is not very interested in metaverse things ….

😅

Should we be @'ing Andrea, Karel or Nonny when a mod is needed or nah?

Ah are they talking about usfns Neos server?

The ingame hidden world

Not the discord one that wouldn't make sense

When is the next MMC

February 2023

I wonder whether distributed computing would ever scale to this?

https://twitter.com/HermanNarula/status/1568273463517024256?t=9-PoRB42Gxuh-d6vELz-cg&s=19

No they wouldn't be, it was just bots/spam

Are these events open for individuals and/or teams? I just saw that acronym for the first time today.

There are team size categories, so you are welcome to work by yourself or a large team

Oh, cool! Thank you for explaining!

Since the rules aren't hammered out for 2023, that's subject to change but I assume it will be similar to 2022. I recommending joining the Creator Jam discord for MMC info as it becomes available or to ask any additional questions.

One of the most important rules is that work cannot begin until the event officially starts. What's defined as work is outlined in the rules.

Awesome and thank you!

Much appreciated... it'll be fun to meet and connect with more of the community. I've just found about Neos for a month now or so.

@NonnyFreedom @malooniac

If they don't get removed, I'm going to reply to them with photos of solar panels

Well welcome to neos friend

Thank you!

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Hello, could someone tell me if something is to be expected for NCR with the merge of the ETH blockchain ?

Best case? No big change.

I don't predict any changes would be needed

The main positive for NCR is the lower transfer costs. Other than that, hoping that nothing goes incredible wrong with ETH, there is no relation to the backend currency. Its just the contract platform.

If something would go very wrong with it, this could negativity impact ncr, as the backend systems stability would be in question

half year. will we be get an update soon??

One will be provided the moment one is available. Nagging doesn't make things happen faster.

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Hi

hi

hi

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Hiii...Can you provide the whitepaper?

It's on the website neos.com

I don't link it in messages as a sort of anti-phising mechanism. If you only ever get it from the website you're safer in that no one is impersonating me or any community member when they link it.

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Hello, I'm Rev, a Listing Agent from Bitmart. I would like to discuss about listing. Who's the right person to talk to?

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any updated?

Привет всем я из Россия💜😉

Мне нравится игра в Neos VR💜

Или нет

ты сейчас в нем?

Я тоже играю неосвр

Тоже)

Ты тоже фурри?

Я тоже

ОшО

теперь я играю в Неос каком мире ты?

Я золото дракон

Lonely.pro

Oh look who's dat

X)

Hello @Lonelypro and @Alex_A_avali , just a courtesy reminder that the communication in this channel should be conducted in English only. Please refer to our Telegram chat rules, if not sure☺️. https://wiki.neos.com/Neos_Telegram (Also pinned in this channel). Many thanks 😊

Let's create a Russian Neos telegram

Good sorry😉

All good, thank you for understanding ☺️

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Hi dear ;)

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Hello everyone

Good evening

Hello and welcome😊

Marry me, Andrea, we can have our wedding in NEOS. I'll make you the best dress and ring ever.

You're gorgeous 😍🥰😍

okay. Hint that I should just head to bed and stop being terrible at blender

😁@wonfiddy While I am charmed by this proposal and I am sure my dress and ring would be nothing short of spectacular, I will have to politely decline, and I think you understand why I have to point out that this type of messages is innapropriate for this channel, so if it reoccurs, it will be deleted. But girl appreciates the compliment, thanks😁

How is everyone doing over here? I hope your weekends were fun (and games). Who's got their eyes on the new Quest Pro btw? Impressive specs but pricey. Definitelly curious once that comes out.

Stressed, but good. Worked on two avatars this weekend, on for a friend and one for someone who needed help getting their textures. Was fairly productive.

Amazing, I hope the joy of your work and helping your friend out-balances the stress.🙂 Do you do avatar comissions by a chance then?

Nope, not skilled enough for that! I'm good at importing, setting up, and fixing them though.

Okay I might DM you regarding to this later, if that is okay. 🙂

Sure! I'm still pretty new at it, but I'm sure I can figure something out with enough googling and fumbling through the menus XD

No problem thank you, I know what you mean about googling. I think Neos and Google/YouTube should come as one package 😆 Luckily people are amazing with tutorials. I hope this is something that can be in time made into more conscise format so people have one very strong and informative go-to source (alongside wiki). Like a Neos Academy. I have watched hours an hours of various online classes and different tutorials and I think we can absolutely do it right and nail it. Once the window of opportunity is opened again. 😊🤞

I've just been busy trying to get my SteamDeck to stream more directly in Neos, minimizing latency as much as possible, while also redoing an avatar to have additional features, but remain flexible so that the modifications are safe for upgrades

Great work with the availability with tutorials. Do you think there's a need and benefit for 3D walkthroughs? I've enjoyed learning quite a bit learning and creating within Neos, and I might be able to produce some meaningful content tutorials to support the community!

technically speaking, many video tutorials could be brought into Neos with a simple menu system that and just have recorded links that updates a video player.

Yes i am going to buy it along with the pico neo 4 pro which also got eye tracking hopefully someone will add a mod to Neos with both headset face tracking support soon

I think that 3D walkthroughs are a fantastic idea, and if they could be accessed inside of Neos, even better.

What is usually quite challenging is having to switch on and off VR, take the headset off, watch the tutorial—for myself, for instance, this is quite bothersome as I have to wear glasses inside of the headset.

With more advanced headsets and AR properties this might be less of an issue in the future however.

But as for the tutorials themselves—there are a lot of very good tutorials out there already but what is lacking is certain learning pathways people could follow I think.

Creating structured categories and learning journeys people could follow, lesson after lesson, with downloadable assets, notes and practical exercises would be something that would help a lot of people to grasp Neos faster depending on what they want to use it for..

We would have to think it through of course - for instance... having Neos Creator pathway - and there you could follow along virtual subgroups like Create your first Avatar, Build the house of your dreams etc..each of these would have series of shorter neat videos, with key points and takeways etc.

Then you can have another pathway - Become Neos Streaming Star (I am literally just brainstorming here, I am sure people can come with better and less lame titles😁) And here we teach how to use Neos for... for instance I don't know...virtual singing😁 - I have seen a few of you singing with your avatars and I thought it was great fun...etc etc.

Then Neos Edu - Run Your First Virtual class, simulation etc etc.

reminds me a bit of when I had to look over HiFi's tutorials before they were sent out to the public. Engineering team often focused too much on the 'hip new features' to the point they forgot to explain how to move... still remember that meeting and more or less slamming the team at the end of it

And whole category itself could be dedicated to Advanced modules like LogiX - Become LogiX expert.

I think a lot can be done, with some willingness and cooperation. It just needs proper planning, as this is not a small task. And just to clarity, I am not speaking for the current team or their approach to this in here, it's just something I would quite like to see and get in place if given the opportunity and help of the community.

It's really not easy task to formulate a good tutorial I agree😆

You almost have to make yourself forget everything you know and think like if you are explaining to 5 year old child 😁

Neos for Dummies

hahah😆 I see it on the bookshelf already

Well... not only that, but it also just depends on the tutorial itself. There are tutorials with 'Yeah I get it' notifications, that some users dislike, and others who prefer them and don't want to have to guess/discover the next thing to do.

Personally, I prefer interactive ones that guide the user on how to do something, but allow room for experimentation in a safe environment. If the user is taking too long to figure something out, then add more clues to nudge in the right direction. For example, you can natively guide users via visuals as means of 'directions to go' and color coding to help visualize separation of things without walls.

awesome please share with us your experience once you get it, I think it's a very tempting purchase, but not one I can easily justify to myself 😆

Like HiFi, however, Neos is also usable in Desktop mode, and I feel any new tutorial made would have to have a split path due to input differences.

The thing about most tutorials I've seen is that they aren't really scripted in any way, so I've seen people get interrupted, go to fast, or not explain something enough. "Just do this it works" is good for some people.. But not all of us. Figuring out a basic lesson plan, and creating a system where you can start at lesson one, and then grasp all the basics for lesson two would be very important.

great point, that is absolutely something to take in account 👍

It's because creating tutorial is UX on its own😊. You have to really drill to the key points of what is it that the user might want to do, what is their level of understaning, potential questions that you think they will ask or issues they will have...it's a balance of information. Too much or too little and people will get frustrated and leave

Honestly.. A slideshow on some things would be great XD

it wouldn't apply too well with Neos, given the locomotion shifting and all that (granted, I haven't delved that deep into them), but an example tutorial beginning I had partially set up was teaching the user how to move. To do this, I had visuals showing an archeway going to pillars going over small drop, with a glowing spot in the center of it. Depending on the controller detected, a model showing it and demonstrating it from afar on how to teleport was demoed. If too much time passed, a 'ghost' of sorts would appear and demo how to do it. Once the user teleported at least 3 times ( 2 pillars and an end point), it was safe to say the user knew how to do it.

The problem is... Neos already has that... but I find slideshows just info dumps, resulting in 'informational overload'. I've seen this countless times happen where if you overwhelm a user with too much at once, they'll be discouraged very easily. You pretty much have to trickle information slowly, but also ensure you aren't doing too much.

Unfortunately there is no perfect way to teach everyone en masse. Just isn't how education works.

Agreed. It's even harder for VR users, since wearing a face toaster is sometimes deemed 'uncomfortable' for some people, meaning that if you are to show them something, it has to be a 'works as quickly as possible' approach.

That is all true. I guess I was thinking more about conceptual side of these. Where for instance you have someone completely knew, who wants to use Neos for making, say a sea world with dolphins and music. You first need to understand how Neos works - what is the inventory, how sessions work, then all the different tools - you need to understand the logic and roughly how Neos operates, and then you can enquire about specific tools. Because otherwise you "don't know what you don't know" . You have not even idea for which tutorial to look for if you don't understand how Neos is designed

That is where a structured pathway might help because it ensures that you get your foundation before you move on

then it doesn;t even matter too much if the UI changes here and there - you understand how it works

I always view it as a 'skill' approach to things. A great demo of that is the great 'make a peanut butter sandwich' exercise.

the idea is basically you write down how to make a sandwich, then follow those instructions exactly. It sounds simple, until you realize that it's meant to demonstrate programming, and that computers will do things literally. In a sense, you can replace computers with users, and the process is more or less the same.

Yes basically like when in bender you start out with making default donut

In blender I started out with learning out to merge meshes so my avatars ears would frickin work :u

Took me 4 hours, do not recommend starting out with that

soft of, but not quite. In the sandwich situation, you make the instructions, but then follow them exactly. EXACTLY.
When demoed with my professor, one set of instructions said to open the bag of bread. They tore the entire thing apart. Technically speaking, the bag was open.
Next, open the peanut butter. A chainsawed up bottle later...
Take knife and scoop out peanut butter. The table looks like a Reese's crime scene.
I think you can see how the rest goes with that mindset.

not just in the sense of the instructions being followed in a literal sense and outside of general assumption, it's also that many things such as 'does the person know how to open a bag in general' and 'does the user know how to open a jar' come into question. Relaying instructions to 'firmly grasp it and do exactly as I do' (you're welcome to the 5 people who get that reference) may sound annoying to people who know the info already, but annoyance is the price you pay for people who don't. It's a major balancing act to gauge on how much information do you really supply in an instruction set to a new user.

Yes when people are able to do it wrong then it will go wrong so then you make it that it can only be done in one way

Like a puzzle

Maybe like a tutorial that is kind of like a ghost so you see the thing semi transparent happening and you follow it like that

And then you simply copy the movement and such to get it right

So then it's like a vr tutorial instead of a video since a video is always different

yup. You just have to think on 'what does a user need to know to get around' and think on 'how can you demonstrate it so the user can find out how to do it via discovery'

Like for example the thing guille made where you can record your movement and such ingame and play it back later

Kinda inspired from the hl1 tutorial map

That's also where you have to follow a ghost by copying what they do

Ingame session recording could be really useful for these type of things

I know it's possible because when a network lag happens it cues all the packages and then plays it fast forward when catching back up

So meaning there is already a system in place that stores movement data

Just gotta find a way to capture it intentionally and replay it back at any moment

I always like the idea of this since then it's even cooler than a 360 video because with this you could then fully experience the thing you recorded

Like for example a vr event

honestly, I've viewed it as a 'just make it a community project' to work on some parts,, with a focus on 'match this theme' and 'here are some raw resources as a baseline'

Yeah i could not find enough people interested in this unfortunately

But maybe in the future someone will try to make it

Fascinating discussion, everyone! I'm in the process of organizing a DJ workshop in Neos for DJs who are on other VR platforms.

One thing that I've noticed is that a live demo is nice to have, but that doesn't scale well.

I'll test out to see what a 3D walk-through could look like, since I think such a learning path would be really fun to make and be a part of!

And I wear glasses myself, so I know what you mean about taking the headset on and off.

Neos is the first platform that I've really wanted to stay in VR for an extended time period to build. 🥰🥰🥰 It's been amazing in that way, and I'll see what I can make for it!

The thing is... that once you use the desktop viewer, you don't really have to take the headset off.

You can't yet host large dj events in Neos yet because connection limitation

Max 20 with a very good headless

we already had more than that on a headless

well, for the most part, it's less the servers and more the client at that point

Even back when I was partying with 400 people in a world, the framerate wasn't exactly great, but was passable. The servers could house thousands, but the systems of most people could only just manage 300 to 400, depending on the avatars involved

(that and bandwidth requirements.... ugh...)

Ah, I understand. Thank you for letting me know. I was aiming for a workshop event of maybe 7-10 people.

Ah then it's fine 🙂

Which game?

I wonder how the creators manage to make that possible

I haven't seen any game yet that allows custom avatars handle more than 60

High FIdelity. I was a support and engagement associate under contract with them for a year

https://twitter.com/FlameSoulis/status/1561448856960864258

....*sigh* Telegram....

https://imgur.com/9h2HItz

there...

only picture I have with a number on it is the twitter link I gave of 419 users; mind you, this was also back in 2018.

oh, and the avatar's weren't single materials, either. So you can bet optimization was... not good? Yet things ran fine

Wowwww

That's quite nice

We need their secrets

uh.... there are no secrets. Heck, the project was open source, but you can't get the original code unless you know someoen who has it, because they took down their Github on shutdown in 2020

but in a nutshell, part of the answer is multiple components of a world's hosting requirements being modular and thus able to run in a cluster setup.

Indeed. And the accessibility in both VR and desktop is what I think makes this such a strong platform. Most of the prepared tutorials can be prepared similarly and recording for each type mode of access.

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whats a good headless in your opinion?

I was able to run 20+ people sessions with an old 4 core haswell and 50 mbit upload just fine. As long as people dont spawn a lot of stuff.

Thats how we usually hosted our DJ sessions (Had neos be streamed behind the dj on a greenscreen.)

And that was still without any User culling back then.
With it it will probably be easier for peoples client performance.
But usermade avatarculling is just a bandaid.

it was usually above 20 people when I ran into bandwith issues with my 50 mbit upload.

Sadly I cant really host anymore as my isp went completly shit since a year now. My net dies daily >_>

Damn, I'm sorry to read that bud

You mean 20+ users, not sessions?

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Oh whoups, typo

Pico neo 4 will cost 449€ in Europe

But if you plan to buy it someone needs to make a mod first to add support and then you got to install that mod to Neos

But it is cheaper than the quest so that's great 😮

Will pico do neo pro?

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Pico neo 4 pro will be too yeah

There is not a price for it yet

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Hii...How the community fund and staking rewards are vested?

ANY updated?

Never

There is still Neos+ plugin if you want a bit extra features tho

why？

Because development halted but community still makes cool things 😌

There is lot of cool projects going on someone is working on an ai that can play Neos

As long as the lights stay on and the servers work, im bullish.

Likewise! It's been so wonderful to share Neos with new people for me.

And how would you all describe Neos? Game, platform, product, engine, tool, or some other description?

Platform/Engine is pretty good way to describe it I'd say

Sounds great and thank you!

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What do you mean stopped.
Can the development of NEOS no longer be continued? Can only work with what is there before the development stop?

To make it short:
Onces there where two friends. One good with finances, one good with making the best f*cking virtual realities there is.

Then suddenly lots of people got interested in the currency that was meant as a "thank you" for everyone sponsoring the project, to not forget the ones that helped out with time and resources and the end. Suddenly that currency was worth more then the project and the two friends got into an argument how to use this the best way.

Money broke the friendship, as it broke the ongoing project. Now the two friends are enemies, trying to figure out who is now in control of neos. One not wanting to give it up for money, the other because its his dream.

Until one of them takes 100% control, any development will be in secret by the one that is the developer, because it would be a bad idea to give this tool to his enemy (and his time and resources), weakening his position as the possible owner of neos.

(This is just my opinion, please don't take this as official word)

I’m the one trying to make Neos open source as we agreed we’ll do. Not in for the money, that is propaganda by the volunteers trying to take over.

Thank you.
Logically, development comes before money.
NEOS is worth nothing without development.

I see, i might be wrong. In any case, this is an ongoing fight between two groups that try to take control. Before not one of the two takes control, this is kind of a standstill situation in any case.

Does not give up.
NEOS has a huge pontential

Both development and financials are very important parts of a company. There are many talented devs without means to make things happen and companies with financing without talented devs. Both can be solved by working hard at it, both are very important.

Yes, both is very important obviously and while i don't have total insight into it, obviously both has to be done right. But it seams like the only solution forward (in any case) is to have one of the two groups take control. It really doesn't mather what of the two do, because the other will most likely create their own project.

The thing that holds both back is that noone really can go forward at the moment.

but what keeps the project alive now is the community that continues without money

But for the future both are important

Thank you both for the info @Karel @Floximo

I am pretty sure as soon as it is solved, neos or any project that grows out of neos will be both very interesting. It might be even the most interesting solution. To have one branch going open source and another one staying with the creator but closed source.

If Karel really intends to make it open source, and i think he means that.

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It can't be open sources at current state because it got licensed unity pieces in it like the modified finalik is one of the things that needs to be changed before it can be open source

But i would like to see it open source

Like i see many people of the community making awesome additions via Neos+ plugin which if Neos was open sourced can be added to the main game

To be honest i would love to see Neos being forked.

Your views and the dev teams views just... don't line up and honestly you are both trying to make different metaverses already. Nothing is being done on neos right now due to this.

I hope you guys figure it out soon, because it's been almost a year.

Honestly Karel, at this point it should be only a question of who keeps the name and brand design. There is no way you two will just make up and there is nothing else really. You two should really find a solution who keeps the name and split the team so the development of both projects can finally continue. It would be awesome to see both projects having a future and considering that many of the programers want to keep close to Frooxius, it might be the best decission from you to go the open source with your copy of the project. It would surly find a lot of interested parties and many new programmers that would help develop this side of the future project.

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There are good news?

No news

No news is good news sometimes right? Right?

There would be a lot of interested VCs given the traction, community and development to date but it would require a roadmap which is clearly absent and to ditch the token because that strategy didn't work.
The P2P client architecture is something that would definitely get attention across web3 circles as would this being open sourced.

But forking this without any real strategy or legal framework that separates all party interest is only going to continue to damage the future of Neos

We would like to list this coin on our mobile app and website, if you are interested, message @tokenmarketcap_verified

I think the only way is to make inquiries to hello@neos.com.

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I believe you bro, Web 3 has always been about Open Source Protocols, Transparency and Permission-less distribution!

Your haters have no clue what this movement is all about!

Technically, what are the advantages of open source in virtual reality / Metaverse?

I am not a developer. But in my opinion, the Metavers should be a decentralized place, and as far as I know, that can only be done via open source. Otherwise, we will eventually be controlled by Mark and the others. NEO has what it takes to grow disruptively. What the two founders have created is really special and too bad to discard it. It's hard to believe that such smart and productive people can't come to an agreement.

Thank you for your advice. But in the conversation history, one of the founders of Neos seeks to work in open source, the other right?

the other NOT isn't ?

Finding a way for Neos to go forward is exactly the problem here. My preffered vision is for it to go fully open-source with anyone being able to contribute to its development, vet its code for privacy issues, fork it as willing individuals and groups form, leading to both Neos flavours that have very little rules that are very decentralized and then also flavours that have minimum viable rules, capable of operating on mainstream platforms like Steam, Meta and whoever will roll out thieir own down the line 🍎, having centalized cloud services (like Ubuntu Cloud), card payments the whole shebang. This would ensure there will be a high-end competitive open-source free metaverse platform available, that there will be always choice and a near certainty that multiple partys will always carry the banner of an open metaverse and it will be available to everyone.
This vision of mine is in hard contrast with the volunteers who joined Neos because they love it as it is. They joined something they love and don’t want it to change. Very understandable. However there are huge outside pressures that will make Neos change one way or another. As Neos grows and VR industry in general matures rapidly with some high profile entrants, those pressures intensify. Operating metaverse with user generated content and social network features is a complex issue. Complying with government rules is only a tiny beginning of the regulation hierarchy. The much harder part are credit card companies like Visa and MC whose rules have about 700 pages. A lot of it is clear and lot of it is very open to interpretation and totally reliant on relationships down the hierarchy. Those are then payment processors and banks who add yet more rules to protect those relationships and their reputation, shareholder relations etc. Further down the chain are the platforms like Steam, Meta, Patreon who have to comply to all of that plus add yet more to protect their own interests. In realation to that we have about 400 ticking bombs that will go off sooner or later. Sooner seeming like the case at the moment.
A lot of the things you see metaverses and other companies do, the unpopular rules they set, the huge investments they need and legal, management teams they build is not done becouse they are stupid or that its their “vision”. It’s because their customers want to use credit and debit cards directly or indirectly and they are part of a system. They don’t exist in a vacuum and have to comply with unimaginable amount of regulation and maintain complex relationships with institutions in the regulation chain.
We are unfortunately at this moment very much part of this hierarchy at its very bottom both in terms of income and our cloud infrastructure.
The only alternative I see to my preffered open-source, decentralized vision is to do what everyone else does by default, meaning to comply with everything we need to, build proper legal and management teams and becoming a serious company (or part of one) capable of navigating these regulations and relationships.
Very understandably the volunteers like Geenz and Probable who work st such compliant companies hate the idea of Neos turning into that. That they go ballistic and try to create opposition at any cost to save Neos as they love and know it. The awesome project they joined. I get that very much and part of me would love that as well.
However we are at a crossroads. We have to choose to go fully open-source or fully corpo. My preference and vision is to go fully open. If most of our volunteers and community will want to go corpo instead I will help make it happen and help Neos to be succsesful in this way. However I will also use all of the funds that this would bring me personally and all the experience I gained throughout the 9 years at Neos to fund an open and free metaverse alternative as I strongly believe that it needs to exist. That it will play an important role in the future of our society.
Saying unclear stuff like “our visions differ” is not helpful.

On this crossroads the opposition needs to decide if they want Neos to go open or corpo. Or formulate another option I don’t see at this time. They need to state their vision clearly. If the vision is to conserve Neos as it is, that is a beautiful one but not realistic at all for the reasons above. We need a realistic one.
The juxtaposition of not wanting to go open and embrace decentralized technology that was created by people frustrated by the rules of the financial system that are to a large degree controlling what we can and cannot do online but also not wanting to comply with these rules and relationships is not sustainable. No amount of striking and channeling the hate towards the situation into hate towars me will help here.
Please make your choice. Even if things were said that shouldn’t have and dirty laundry was washed publicly that didn’t have to I still love you all and appeciate what you have done and are doing for Neos. Your contribution towards creating something this amazing and important will be never forgotten. Especially if we can chart a viable way forward. 🙏

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I also think that the "we have to choose either fully open source or fully corpo" ultimatum you suggest is a pretty poor declaration. As there are other options to go down. Froox states here that a gradual open sourcing of Neos was going to be the plan, and that parts of Neos are already open source: https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/850128578271641610/905237126986215444

Is it really true that the root of the conflict is "small corpo community" vs "open source metaverse" visions? I thought the rest of the team just do not want to work with you and thats it.

So well said Karel. When I first got my VR headset this last Christmas and learned to use it, the first thing I did was go on a hunt for the closest thing to the metaverse of Ready Player One. When I found Neos, I thought wow this is the closest this Neos could do it. I was surprised to find it wasn't open source. I read some of the doc and understood why it wasn't open source at the time. I had hoped that it would become open source.

I think if you go corporate companies might try to squash their competitors. If you go GNU it would open you up to other sister projects that would also need to open source, but might be more community driven, or go a route similar to Ubuntu or WordPress. If you go MIT you might get something like Apple OSX that might fork and then enhance privately.

I just want Neos to survive, one way or another.

I find GNU prefferable but MIT would do as well if there is no other choice.

Meta might fork one way or another. At least if they fork it as GNU then others might still be able to benefit and compete.

I dont have a job. Corporations suck.

GPL is cool.

:3

Unfortunately yes, either there has to be rules if management is expected to comply to all it needs to or there can be no management and things can be decentralized. We can’t do both. That would only lead to Neos loosing funding mechanisms and capability to provide services like cloud sooner or later which would of course be attributed to poor management.

If someone says my vision for Neos is bad OK provide a better one and we’ll do that.

Until recently you worked for one and complained all the time how its terrible there. I don’t want for Neos to become Microsoft as well. We have to come up with something though.

We do, I think a good foundation would be one that is fair and just and treats its employees well.

The lack of virtue signaling is not the problem here. Either isn’t what we don’t want. The problem is figuring out what we do want for Neos.

I know a country where it does already ;)

I mean, i am thankful that it at least "put out there". I think you do mean well Karel, but there has be the option to actually fail, to go with the project to what you consider not sustainable. You are probably right that they have to adapt in the end, but you do understand that this will never happen with you two in the mix. You slow each other down because of your personal troubles, if you want that or not. It is reality

Maybe what Froox had in mind:
" open sourcing device drivers first (and making it easier to write custom ones), then maybe importers, then components/tools and then the core."
(From https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/850128578271641610/905237126986215444)

"We'd definitely like to open source it as soon as we can, but that might still take a while"
(From https://github.com/Neos-Metaverse/NeosPublic/issues/2584#issuecomment-873821214)

"Overall we believe that having solid foundations is one of the most important things for the metaverse and taking certain shortcuts can compromise those, causing major issues in the long term. It's how we have built the engine so far and it's one of the major reasons why it has so much more flexibility, even compared to platforms that have much larger development teams - without proper architecture and foundations certain things become too hard to maintain or implement, even if you throw lots of people at it and that's something we'd like to avoid.

Personally I see us doing this gradually. Expanding the plugin architecture first, opening up things like hardware drivers/integrations. Later on more core components and tools. It'll require some reorganization and will take some time, but it should make things more manageable."
(Also from https://github.com/Neos-Metaverse/NeosPublic/issues/2584#issuecomment-873821214)

We would all love to see your two visions come to life, even if one of them ultimatly fails. And you can say "i told you so" and whatever was made in between will merge again most likely. But to pull from both end just prevents both sides to get anywhere

I think Neos could go corporate with the right leadership team, sponsors, and mentors. This would be a huge undertaking. It sounds like VR Chat has been going through those growing pains.

The Crypto world has been undergoing huge scrutiny by the SEC it will require a large corporate team to navigate both the Crypto regulations as well as the complex free speech, online universe that it is creating.

Even as a fully open source project and foundation, it will be a struggle and probably require a legal team to stay afloat under today's complex global legal systems.

There is no real reason why Neos could’t be open sourced right now without the parts like FinalIK that we don’t have the rights to and that people would probably substitute with open ones quite soon. Maybe not feature parity from the get go but open and free for anyone to improve.

There are many reasons.

But its true that open source has advantages in this. But i dont know neos code or structure. I guess that some parts are prioritary or even stolen (everyone does it)

To make a clean cut to open source is usually not that easy, but still archiveable

I remember 3 years ago Frooxius pressuring me to go open-source already and me explaining that I was not sure that we would have money for rent after and now it’s a technical problem to open source. Not likely.
Now I see a clear path, Frooxius has his own Patreon, doesn’t have to comply to all the rules a company has to when only contributing to open software. Other developers and whole geoups working on Neos flavours can do the same.

You could go social purpose corporate like Purism:

Purism is a Social Purpose Corporation founded by Todd Weaver in 2014. Purism is a company dedicated to freedom, privacy, and security.

There is a clear path now but the will has gone.

Ping me on DM

why not open source fork

I dont have the insights you do, I don't know, but it still feels like the only way forward is a clear break. A fork

IMO forking would be interesting because like, well. Dev team can continue with their neos, you can continue with your neos.

The ability to fork is in general very good and solves a lot of issues that emerge when things are not open.

It would also be awesome to partner with OpenBCI and/or work to harness the powers of some of the headsets they are partnering on:

OpenBCI/Varjo for Galea BCI system

I am just a small fish in patreon, but i will (for my part) patreon both groups with my meger 80€ a month if you both finally find a way forward

I want to see this projects succede

what is current problem? Do team not want to fork?

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Very hard to figure out what they want. They don’t want to be managed but they don’t want for Neos to be decentralized either.

That's strange seeing as I spoke to Froox about it very early and they said they've always been cautious about it. There's even comments on some of the issues here: https://github.com/Neos-Metaverse/NeosPublic/issues/2584#issuecomment-873821214 A lot can change in 3 years, perhaps you should think back to more recent conversations as opinions change.

We've told you multiple times, in multiple methodologies what we would like.

Yeah that's why i use Neos+ it's the mid way between open source and still making use of existing infrastructure

Since Neos+ got vetting the code any anyone can contribute and fork it

Infact here's a 2019 conversation about open sourcing, 2019 was 3 years ago. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/917460205535637505/1023920791382921287/unknown.png

Oh look that's me!

Thats great to hear. Do you want for Neos to be open-source and decentralized or to be a corporation with professional management?

You can refer to those multiple methodologies to see what we want. Thank you.

Both has advantages but we cannot be both at once.

When you search for xlinka Neosplus GitHub you find a tweet from him with the link to the Neos+ open source plugin which adds tons of new features and many to come

The is right with that Probable Prime, and i am not usually on Karels side (sorry). Perhaps a clear cut to both, one path each?

Am i allowed to post the direct link to the Neos+ plugin?

I’ve seen that and applaud to it very much. Doesn’t solve the centralization issues we have but a great step towards something better.

Sure why not

https://github.com/Xlinka/NeosPlus/releases/tag/v2022.08.30

That neos even allowes such a thing is awesome

why not? It is already the case, and the path of slowly open sourcing the platform seems like the best way to go, as Neos's technologies get open sourced, the platform will, in nature, become more open and decentralised.

Yeah this shows how willing the community is to add features

Multiple companies operate as open source and corporations, its really cool. Blender is my favorite example.

Blender is pog.

Oh yeah Neos+ gets updated weekly the cloth physics was from a few weeks ago this is the main Neos+ page https://github.com/Xlinka/NeosPlus

Because employees have to comply internally in order for management to be able to comply with external entities.
So either you have working management or it is not needed.

So, whats the trouble? You know, you two will probably never have the same vision, eye to eye. The trust was broken long time ago. Cant you both not finally rip that band-aid off? It would be a great day for neos, neos+ and new neos alike

All we know is that Neos development was really unorganized with no clear directive

If there is a transition period needed for reasons that have not been clearly stated or I don’t understood I would like to know how much longer our legal entities have to last. How long it will take approximately.

Their time left is limited if we continue to stay on this trajectory.

is it?

Yes

It is

It really is look at how many users stayed and how much just left

That sounds like a threat, hmm.

Sounds like stagnation

I like neosvr a lot it's my life but seeing friends leave is sad

How about... it would be really, really nice? I mean, it would give a real direction and you all do want to go forward, right?

As long as there is an agreement to do it, a date would help

Not a threat I’m working to keep them going quite hard actually, I’m not on strike, our cloud is being paid, things are working.

My friends called it abandonware and I stayed still in Neos since I just like the things you can do in it so much it really was my start of vr and building in VR is what i do

Ahh you're referring to the cloud ok.

People do think neos is dead

Yeah it's sad 😔

But then we got Neos+ and there was hope

It would be good to remind them that there is a clear direction, if there is

Because if there is not, they are right

It just isn't easy for regular users to update and place Neos+ in the right folder yet but it's a good start to community updates

my plugin is not a replacement for updates.

It kinda is tho

It shouldn’t be

Yeah

And its not like froox stopped development

Isn't it?

What secrets do you know of

I'll be working with Xlinka when I can to move suitable features back over to actual Neos when we can :)

We can

look forward to working with you, till then.

It's just a matter of willing to at this point

It only boils down to you two find a solution. No he didnt obviously. You just need to see how 9ften he tests new versions in neos and you realize that

will neos be take offline?

They just dont get released

Hard to say it's alive when anytime I jump in it's the same 5 people playing and the newcomers rarely stay. Especially with all this drama it makes it even harder to call Neos a home.

Where do you get this info?

Friendlist?

I also talk about this in my office hours basically every week alex

You see the version other people have if not compatible

I play neos a lot still.

Oh that's mostly Neos+

no legal fight yet??

Yeah a lot of people use Neos+ now

I'm spreading it around

Even froox?

Neat

no

not that i know of.

Well, then its not that

Pushing new features directly into Noes Steam wouldn’t change anything legally. I see no reason why not to do that. Especially if everything will be open-sourced sooner or later, right?

Yep

But i mean thats not really a secret. Why would froox release any more than security patches while they fight over the future of neos and neos code

What do you mean ?

Exactly it doesn't make sense other than not willing to

Eh... what? It makes a lot of sense if you fight over ownership

I really just want the game to get back on track again.

Its like paying into a bank account you are not sure you own

Perhaps its obvious to me because i am a dev, i don't know

Its my opinion

It is a form of protest I get that. However the protest is not achieving anything other than hurting users. Would be better to think about the situation constructively work towards a solution. Like open-sourcing or getting professional management on board.

Nah froox used to make updates every week

Then finding a solution asap is the way to go

Karel, the dream of finding a solution between you two is gone since a long time sadly

Or... maybe you have to change. There's a reason why the protest is happening. They aren't just doing it for fun, there's serious reasons why.

Basically pulled the whole community with it instead of keeping working on Neos which he loved doing and then lot of people left

No mather how well you mean. You have to find a way to split, sorry to say this

Why tho ?

Why not Karel version neos fork that can be open source

You holding each other back

Not looking for solution of our relationships, looking for solution for Neos.

Open sourcing means distancing from NCR holders and stabbing the crypto community in the back.

Yes community first again

The game has a small core group of players, when newcomers jump in it's rare they stay any longer than a few days. The game has bursts where we'll get a few more people online from time to time, but really it's a small core that keeps it alive. From my perspective I play for the potential of the game, drama like this where I cant even see where the game is going almost kills my faith in it. Woulda been a great time with the influx of VRC people to release some kinda roadmap but instead yall wasting a great opportunity.

Yah

It was super wasted

Trust is gone. Some people are better then others to keep thing in a professional level. If its not possible, a split of the company has to happen

Not at all open-sourcing is very positive for crypto. All major crypto projects are actually open. We’d use resources to reward developers, would work great.

Thats where it clearly stands right now

Yeah i think that can work well together

Nothing is wasted , really, the future of neos is not left behind.

Like you got to think about the future eu is working on a digital euro so having support for these new technologies is good

Just got to work to a international law for it to be fully ready