I've never been able to talk to Froox. And anytime I've seen anyone ping him they've had 22 furries jump down their throat telling them he's too busy.

It actually used to be the opposite, with Karel talking to the community and Froox on the ivory tower. Only thing that's changed has been Karel's supposed disappearance

for what it's worth, I've atleast been told that he's still doing things behind the scenes, just cant talk about it.

turning new users away is a mercy unto them honestly. This platform sought to openly scam its users and have the childish notion that everyone would be as OK with it. Why do they deserve new users to drag through the mud? This user has every right to rail against the sheer utter unreconcilable stupidity that the team has wrought upon us for petty reasons.

I'm confused. Is Neos not good for new users?

We have our rough areas, which we aim to work on once the issues currently being discussed are worked on.

Until then the new user experience is rough yes. Certainly not to the point where I would specifically turn them away from the platform but each to their own.

All feelings are totally valid.

I care

My actions are quite a lot. Thanks!

Hey, so let's go over that again.

I need a name and a report in a moderation ticket. That's what I need. Otherwise I can't do anything. The user could just open a ticket with two words and i'd be able to do more. Its so there's a paper trail which proves I'm not doing anything as an isolated rookie. Such cases (Harassment) are evaluated by multiple moderation members to ensure there's no favoritism.

If this is disagreeable with you, you can take it up with the moderation leads or Veer. Who will tell you the same.

Thanks for your repeated redirection to this area.

As for citations, I'm waiting on a whole whost of Wiki configuration changes and updates on our wiki's host. This host is controlled by Karel and I don't have access. To be clear I'm not blaming him. He's busy doing other items, but I'm unable to continue the advancements I need to that platform without a few things from Karel. We've talked about it before but it kinda stopped at the time it was needed the most. Hence I'm not blaming Karel its just another symptom of the current issue that's happening.

I'd follow Froox pretty much anywhere if they needed my support.

What flavor pudding btw?

I actually can't, I've had multiple warnings from the moderation team that I need to consult them before I do things as they own the policies there.

Naturally I accept this because having worked at larger companies where this(defering to moderation teams) is the standard policy. I'm applying it here too.

Interesting, we do. because I looked into it and that's what I discovered. I appreciate your information in this case. Perhaps I'll double check later. Last I checked its something to do with our localization setup

There's a few moderators in here that are monitoring. I don't need to bring anyone in.

That's ok, i'm sorry you think that. But thanks for looking into it for me.

I hope you have a nice evening Zig.

They're here, they read it. They agree with me, we need a ticket. Thanks for your concern.

I'm sorry you think that. I'll take that feedback into consideration as I continue to improve the wiki. Thanks!

Oh that's a shame that you think that. But that's ok. Thanks!

I didn't reprimand them, I just encouraged them to move on. There are other mods here though. Lots and lots.

Yesss! They live in the shadows just like the shadow cabal

Its a meme, from a bunch of youtubers who report on the Earth 2 project

You actually did ask.

Oh yes she's a member.

You can read about our lack of ability to do wiki citations here: https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/735381514988159016/844103450966360064

Along with Epsilion and I's efforts to get them resolved via Karel. Thanks!

Thanks for the images!

Ah yes I see. Falling back to insults.

I asked for links so I could be direct with Karel. Epsilion was dirivng a lot of the pages he needed citations for at the time. Its a community project after all.

Thanks!

No, I wanted to ensure we had the correct pages that had previously been asked to ensure that we didn't end up with two different versions of a plugin or incompatible plugins and to ensure I was aligned with a community members needs.

Basically due diligence.

He asked for my help to see if I could push them through or if I had access to install them. We both asked.

That's fine. They're really cool.

Can you finally stop the trolling?

Yee :D

You are constantly blaming on probably prime, not doing anything good in documenting.

While ProbablePrime is the one who probably documented the most out of Neos. And helped other and me countless times with his works.

Thanks for the feedback.

I saw some that referenced me so I thanked you for it anyway. Thanks

- Everyone can claim to be want they want to be on the internet.
-If you think that a complete different team and devs should continue to work on it, I got bad news for you.
-> It would be a cold start as if that team would just start to build a vr platform, but with 5, maybe 10% of the content + they need to learn the code for a year or more without anyone guiding them.

It would be easier to start from scratch.
And they would need to be multiple times the size of the current team to make maybe the same progress.

What? You asked someone else for proof back then aswell.

Metaverse coins pumping 🚀

People know Apple Metaverse move is coming

NCR

for me it's more along the lines of "Im willing to take my chances" in the face of everything, if it has to come to that.

There's still a part of me that hopes things can be cleaned up and the involved parties can be respected, but I don't think the egos will allow that

and the last bit of optimism I had kind of had has been bled out of me every time I read something Geenz posts on social media, with the last time where I read his pay expectations makes me see the current team as a spineless joke. So I've basically flipped from "maybe there's a way things can work out" to "I just want to see how the lawsuit pans out, fuck everything else"

This is all rather confusing. I've been watching videos on how to do things, but I keep seeing good and bad things going on. Is everything okay?

I just got started, and people seemed inviting and showed things still happening. If Neos is in trouble, then why do events and people still be there?

If community is so passionate with platform, then maybe they can be new dev team? Isn't there an owner to Neos who could keep the project going?

Because a lot of people constantly bringing it up.

I triggered a full moderation investigation. For a lie.

I made it up, just messing with everyone

If you have feedback for the moderation team you can provide it via tickets or the our anonymous feedback form. Thank you

Why would someone want to lie about something so severe it'd cause an investigation?

dude, just own up to your shit. you took orc's trolling and megaphoned it for a month like it had legitimacy. insisting that the process should be what? following every single he said she said rumor that crosses a staff member? you insisted you didn't want to talk to a moderator, spoke only in generalities, and continued to engage anyone who spoke to you about it in as abrasive and evasive a manor as possible. you had no skin in the game, you were just parroting a false accusation.

Idk why y'all entertain this inspirational gnome

They clearly feed off of it

You should believe people when they report harassment. You should understand the dynamics may prevent them from coming forward themselves and take third party reports with specificity into account (my main point if disagreement with the current process). But you should not be acting on three degrees removed reports from people who refuse to substantiate or even tacitly engage with the moderation process. That is how you get your moderation team paralyzed chasing false leads, duplicate reports and trolls. I am not implying you knew all along. You can take that up with Orc, but you have publicly gone to bat for this. You used this as an argument, and you still are trying to. Rather than open a ticket, or speak to a moderator you paraded this. And I will be very critical of that.

You got duped, and went to bat for it. You harangued Prime for not acting outside his role on a vague accusation of harassment. Then when he felt badgered enough by you he stepped up outside his role, pushed for an investigation, and got to see all the stress was for a lie.

And you still were an asshole to him. Immediately tried to redirect. You won't own up to your own bullshit. If you weren't so committed to just shitting over everyone all of the time I might even agree with you. I /have/ agreed with you before. But you used someone's harassment as a fucking rhetorical point, refusing to engage with it outside that utility. What the fuck zig?

Did I make a mistake by not reading any previous messages? It sounds like this all has been going on for a long time.

Yeah? You could get yourself into a position to do something, but you won't. You'd prefer to yell at people. Thank you for your bravery and sacrifice. The internet needs more of your stunning feats of keyboard war.

I want to believe you about your motives. You are smart, we seem socio-politically aligned from like, even just little ancillary behaviors. I don't think this is purely cynical and I apologize for that remark about you using this situation rhetoricaly.

But you are such an asshole and I can not understand it. You get me mad at you and I just wish you'd drop the affect and engage in good faith. >.> And I figure this same exchange will happen again down the line. And I still won't understand it.

It's very complicated. I wish I had a more broken down answer, since I know you are still figuring things out, but for the most part, for the past 8 months, this has been the norm in this channel, but not so much in Neos itself. That's the most basic explanation I can give.

IMO this is just not a great place to be introduced to the community. It's practically unmoderated. The discord is more representative of what you'll see in the game, this place is serving as a bit of a tension point between splintering factions of the community due to what I will characterize as a labor dispute. The context of that can be had through the announcements channel on discord.

oh okay. I guess other people who are starting out find out this channel first, then go to the other one? Why does the website point to here and not both channels?

A single person holds control over the Website, thats the issue

Sorry I have so many questions. There is a lot of things going on to figure out, and now I am confused on who is helping new people and who aren't

The Official Discord is the right place to easily find help, aswell as our Mentor team.
The Discord link is on the website, just as a "Connect with us" and just the Symbol on the bottom instead on the top.
The whole thing that is going on is quite a long story.
To be short.
The Dev team and the Creator Dev of neos are on Strike against the other Shareholder.
Its 50 % / 50 % splitted against Frooxius
(Creator) and Karel (NCR part).

But yeah. you will find a lot of help and Information in the main Discord.

As for the lower reported numbers of users, as much as I don't like using this as an example, but I think you can see why it hasn't been easy for new people to find helpful information, when this channel is the more pushed direction (due to the shortcut at the top of the website as its own dedicated button).
The discord is more vetted towards keeping things civil and people there have a genuine desire to help new people, but the link isn't as obvious.

Yeah, the discord is definitely much more amicable and civil

who asked about their finances?

trollolo

not strictly speaking, but I know it isn't helping either. If new users' first experience to Neos, to find things out, is here, which has been happening more often recently, finding reliable information and troubleshooting assistance amongst the consistent arguing isn't going to leave a great impression

and god forbid we have another one of those rampant bots again, considering the moderation time here

Do you... Get tired of alienating everyone from your life

It's just, I don't think I've ever met anyone else who knew you who didn't... Experience this sort of thing

And then to see it in a big room with everyone

It's really just you

Must suck

A lot.

Neos's decline isn't one sole reason. For a decline to happen, you need users to leave the platform and none to come in. Of course, it's easier if you have less people coming in to then have a decline. Any avenue where a potential new user can join and learn about things being affected in a negative way will further decrease the chances of possibly staying on principal alone.
Neos isn't for everyone, but even the best platform can be ideal and yet have means to discourage new users, and thus have little to none.

Neos is having a hard time finding new people to play? I check site again, and they seem to make a lot of money from patreon. Why no one on patreon play Neos?

So Neos has large number of people on in private? What does private mean? Like passworded room?

So all patreon players are in Neos, but are in private rooms? But why then only 400 people on? patreon has 1500 people. Not enough rooms?

Bear in mind, you do not need to be on the Patreon in order to join or play Neos.
Also, Neos can have as many rooms as needed, because it's peer to peer, or basically it lets you connect to another user directly instead of a server for the world/room.

it's also worth pointing out that not everyone in Neos is in VR. Most are, but sometimes people need a break or something that is easier to do in desktop mode

Metaverse coins pumping hard

Could see a big reversal on NCR

coins pumping? What does that mean?

I didn't know it can play without a quest. thank you

Remember NCR was the top gainer consistently in the metaverse category. If metaverse takes off again, we could be in for a serious pump 🚀

Way less NCR in circulation compared to last time, since so much has been bought in the buyback programme

Is NCR the money Neos uses? What does pump mean? I thought chat was for game

oh okay.

where did message go?

This is crypto chat for metaverse

so this not chat for game? Then why on site?

CEO use telegram rival CTO use discord

CTO trying to remove crypto currency from metaverse

but ceo owner of Neos? Then why telegram not for Neos?

CEO and CTO half owner

CTO try to remove CEO

CTO want to have fun
CEO want to make Neos a success

All discord is fur, telegram is holder

Neos has been "dead in the water" so to speak for just over 9 months now, unfortunately.

but people with icons nice and help me. are people here in Neos too?

Some nice peoples

Yes, I have around 3000 hours in Neos, over 2000 hours of it making content for the platform since 2019.

Many make bad speak about metaverse because they lose 100000 USD

People banked on the idea that snow crash or ready player one would come true

but why people lose money? buy too much storage for room? I thought Neos free

User bought NCR at 10 USD

NCR coin now .30 USD

but what can do with NCR in game? Why so expensive?

but if game good, then why team matter?

need to think. channel is confusing

What is you in metaverse user

Because the game is very incomplete. It's very much in an alpha stage right now and needs a lot more work. Without anyone working on it, it's stuck in that early development stage and isn't an attractive platform to play on or develop on.

The CEO took care of the CTO, the main programmer, for years. He housed him, shopped for him, cooked for him, took care of him in many ways. He took care of all the business stuff like bills and taxes, trying to find funding for Neos, and making connection in the industry. The CEO took on all this responsibility mainly so the CTO could focus on programming.

The moment Neos found financial success the CTO stabbed the CEO in the back. They no longer needed him. They tried to get him kicked out of the company.

I haven't been around or paying attention to every thing going on until now, still have alot of reading

I obviously inspired some shit going on without really knowing, when I thought I made it clear that I was fucking around, I'm sorry. Like when I was telling a ridiculously stupid story that amounted to "within my first 5 minutes in Neos I got harassed!", I thought it was obviously stupid. I just saw the old "submit a support ticket" message and just had a laugh and then said I was joking but it seemed to get lost in the chat.

No one messaged me about it or anything, so I didn't think it was an issue

I never got approached by anyone about any investigation. So I didn't know I had even caused a problem.

Sorry to everyone, especially anyone defending me. I'll be alittle less unhinged in the future here.

I'm sorry you went to bat for me. I haven't been checking the chat as often or I would have seen what was going on. Sorry to Prime too. I'll not troll as much

I didn't lie, But thanks for your opinion.

Also thank you Orc for the updated messages on this I'll pass them along.

if it means anything in recompense, there was a time when it was insinuated that a specific team member did something sexual. I speculated too abit but when I was shown my someone that it was a lie, I atleast told literally everyone in neos I knew that it wasn't true

Just because we didn't speak to Orc, doesn't mean there wasn't an investigation. So no, I didn't lie.

Thanks again Orc.

Thanks for your feedback, have a fantastic day.

None

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/07/19/dubai-unveils-metaverse-strategy-aims-to-attract-over-1000-firms/

Neos still has the best Metaverse tech

from here or telegram?

None

By who? When? Who is even moderating this chat!?! lol

Likely by karel yesterday, can't be sure as andrea doesn't show last active time. Neither seem to really 'moderate' the chat though, just randomly kick/ban people with no explanation or attempting to warn people

they are the only 2 admins in the channel + the 2 random bots they have

But don't you do that all the time

Also don't think it would purge all messages when banning someone. just the past x amount of time

You delete your messages like every day

I assumed it was cause you were embarrassed

I mean, you could ask him.

Is it normal community management practice for people to have to sleuth out if/why someone was banned?

No, zigmund is just obsessed

Because he doesn't have anything better to do so this replaced his social life or something

What are your preferred pronouns zig?

Oh, you are they/them, I forgot I'm sorry.

I'm enby too, so really, I'm sorry.

I mean, people get banned from Neos without anyone knowing why and the moderators refusing to elaborate why, so... I guess yes?

You got banned?

Me? No, no. Just referring to bans I've heard of/seen in the past.

I misread, sorry. I was about to get real indigent real quick.

That can be pretty typical of private platforms, but it's not good.

I don't need to know the specific why of a ban, personally. I am fine with it just being communicated to the person who receives the ban. But I don't think it should be so much guessing work to figure out if action was taken.

Deleting messages from a channel, though, isn't exactly something that works though. If you delete your messages, the admin of a super group has access to all of the deleted messages via the mod panel.

So if the dev team didn't want the admin of this chat to see what they said they shouldn't have posted here at all

Are you under the impression Cyro was a member of the dev team?

Oh I mixed up names

It's just some user? O.o

Well, he is an official moderator

He's a member of the moderation team.

Aaahhh, well then same deal

It mostly just looks bad. But I don't really have much faith in the moderation of this channel. *shrug*

I'm under the impression this channel is basically abandoned

Pretty much

The “team” killed the discord by making it a toxic environment for non-furries. Now we have telegram as a compromise

None

The discord is exhausting to be around, getting a bunch of thoughtless attacks for having an opinion other than the norm.

Maybe that would be tolerable if not for the constant threat of getting banned there.

but really, what are we moaning about, I don't see a stark need for moderation aside from when we had a user go coin shill on us

concerning the discord, there was a "containment" channel already with the NCR section. But that wasnt enough. Asshole furries had to come into that channel LOOKING for fights, then its blamed on the denizens of that channel for the attacks issued against them

so the thumbs down on your comment are particularly offputting to me

i guess I should shut up for awhile though, all things considered

yeah it sucks they took over neos. karel and the rest of the team were always so accommodating but they took advantage and bit the hand that fed them (for froox quite literally..).

and now they removed their thumbs downs lol...

well I like the crowd in here alot, even those I occasionally disagree with and folks atleast seem to listen to each other, even if things get abit rude

cant argue with that

and we havent needed moderation.. why do we? so we can have some arbitrary rules aboit being polite just because thats the norm or something. we all get along

the devs commented preciously about how there was the "wrong kinds of people" and they "dont want to have anything to do with that crowd" sounding like a couple of church ladies, talking about their own customers

and so we're here

yep, and maybe I could tolerate that if not for the way they tried to revise history over the whole ordeal

like, these being the people they were selling NCR to sincr 2018, and suddenly when Geenz doesnt get what he wants everyone is a cryptobro

and I would like to have respect for Frooxbut kinda hard to do that when he's so spineless he'd throw us infront of the bus to just make such a literal overgrown child pretending to be a neon bird happy

oh geenz was pissed he didnt get 50k for 10 hours, and thats enough to grind a project to a halt in an era where we were arguably ahead in a field where competition is growing daily

rather than focus on the work, it was more important that the friends ingraciating themselves with Froox be extra comfy and that (apparently? for what reason?) requires sacrificing their own funders

I still cant wrap my head around how stupid this all is

Neos is hoping they can spread enough disinformation that some tuber or eceleb will push their revised bullshit for them. You see the lil creeps popping up in comment sections trying to tell people what to think

A month or two to sort things out could be expected, but now it seems like a solid case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face". I guess they're getting enough in from personal Patreons now to not care what happened to anyone else on the platform.

It seems to always be about personal comfort

personal comfort has been priority 1 and there's no true loyalty to the users. I wish the japanese users just had control of the platform since they seem to bw the ones actually doing events and promoting it among each other, but even they seem like an afterthought taken for granted

maybe Im being unfair in assessments but I feel I'm mostly spot on

Like.. i feel that if Karel wasnt involved the whole project wouldve just been called Furcadia VR or something years ago

If Karel wasn't involved it would basically be a place for Froox and his friends to hang out. nobody else would know about it...

many of them were NCR customers too. when froox issued his announcement (which Im surprised none of his cohorts thoight to tell him to reco sider) it was japanese users confused on why NCR went like -70%in a single day

considering they spent 0 on marketing, Karel did a good job so far in marketing Neos and supporting its organic growth. i dont know how the team can turn their backs on that

who knows, maybe it should have been. but it got wrongly marketed to us as otherwise

it took like a week and they were ready to rip this man's spleen out while not being able to easily articulate "why"

watching this shit unfold in realtime made me think I was missing something but no it was just a lesson in mob mentality

actually there's alot of lessons to be gathered from this gongshow

If you count the buyback wallet, patreon and money withdrawn previously there's gotta be $5M in funding in Karel's control. That's still plenty to hire devs and revive Neos

it's not all doom and gloom, lets put it like that

NCR is still kicking as well. buybacks have continued consistently

Ideally they just.. establish some professional barriers like adults do and start caring about the future

There's been plenty of successful virtual currencies that don't use the blockchain. NCR tokens were a mistake.

Given all the speculation with crypto, it seems it would have been impossible to use as a stable market currency. I raised this repeatedly well before the explosion and it was just dismissed by the team (because at the time they were all getting NCR and CDFT, and thus benefitting from it).

Now that the environmental and power concerns have hit the spotlight, it's also just not a good look to have on you either way. All of that together made it a losing gamble, regardless of intentions.

It was never marketed as something to be stable. People always joked or thought about how it could eventually be worth more... and that was thr whole point of the rising mint prince.

If you want something stable just hold onto your local currency or something. There's nothing wrong with letting the market decide the valur of a currency and not trying to pretend youre an economist and control or peg it.

and no, I don't believe in being regressive and trying to rebuild the lindenlab ecosystem.

I think its ridiculous to call your platform a metaverse and then try to funnel all commerce through your own payment scheme

and even if you could it would've just killed the whole funding scheme, which however you want to frame it, you atleast have to admit was wildly successful.

good luck getting people to fund Neos by selling them lindenbucks. I wish we could get over this college sophomore softbrain idea that speculation is a dirty word.

I mean, that simply won't work when people want to sell things. They want to know how much they're selling it for. When it's value can drastically change day to day or week to week then.. well, people just won't bother.

they'll know the value of it, and they'll be happy to benefit from the changes day to day too, when it favors them. Maybe consider it's unfair to judge its price behavior now to how it would be when actual good and activities are payable in it. Because even Lindens have a fluctuating value, or even the Yen does if you'd look at a price chart.

Yen does not fluctuate wildly and Linden dollars are virtually completely static.

Deflationary currency was a mistake from the get-go. It is trivially evident that it disincentivizes spending, and on top of that encouraging speculation just makes it unattractive for transactional use at all.

Any attempt to compare the MASSIVE variations in crypto price to fiat currencies in most 1st world currencies is so far from being accurate that it's basically a lie.

Not to mention the massively varying (and often incredibly expensive) transaction costs of many crypto.

Or rather... Inflationary currencies benefit those who have the means or knowledge to park their currencies in deflationary assets or invest it and grow their wealth. Where your regular jackoff doesn't and saving gets him less and less the more he saves.

I know a few financial analysts and they said the outlook for crypto in general is very very bad

Well I think it's that people have to sort of accept the eb and flow of these things when dealing with an emerging form of transacting value. The criticism of things like price fluctuation basically ammount to "crypto isn't perfect yet so it shouldn't exist"

From power usage to demand to market trends, even legality

Yeah well fire them.

they sound like a bunch of retail sheep trend-followers

tell them to keep reading the news instead of paying attention to the software developments.

*shrug* I just have a lot of family and extended family that do that sort of thing. It's not that crypto isn't viable, it's what it's become and what it represents that makes it unpalatable to governments and the market itself

I mean I can agree, but at the same time we just ignore the benefits when they are right infront of us. Like here's a tech that lets someone transfer a billion dollars in under an hour for a fee of like $10... and that's not worth anything?

Feels dictate the market a lot more than they should

That's more like it

I'm not whining at all, I'm just saying what I know from second hand.

I'm not a finance guy, I only know what I've been told.

but by the time you think you know the feel of the market it'll be turning around without you: "Goldman Trader: The Top Client Question This Week Was 'Why Did The Market Not Go Down In The Face Of Incredibly Worsening Data' "

So I could be 100% wrong

I mean, in the end I don't see the point, as NCR was sold, and it's entirely optional. If they want to have nothing to do with it they can even just download the Steam client

so what's really the matter? That we all get to insert out own personal beliefs and pretend it's a big problem

I know how to embalm bodies too actually

because most of the talk about this seems to be filtered through socialist or capitalist rhetoric, or ideas about inflationary assets being good, or "digital scarcity" being a real thing (its not)

I mean I would've thought so too but no they care more about being reactionaries and having things to complain about

People are going to have something to say because Karel wants it to be part of an integrated marketplace, which implies it's own economy, which is.... Essentially LL's L currency but with crypto

but I don't really think NCR or any software should be trying to channel some sort of political belief

Anarchists are usually environmentalists

probably. they are used to doublethink axioms :P

They also are usually anti currency because currency is supposed to naturally create hierarchical systems via the ability to amass and hoard resources

But these are ancoms, not anarchists :3

they should know we need a few more steps before we're at star trek yet

Tankies???

until then I think being able to bank yourself is a step in the right direction if the environmental concerns are addressed

Philosophists usually talk in perfect scenarios when they do academics that don't involve real world examples

Oh gosh, my bad

My brain was auto-completing ancom to ancap because: cryptocurrencies

Ancaps love currency

It makes them squirm

Only anarchists are pretty. :3

You know that you can explain how a group views a concept without believing in that concept right

Do you understand hypotheticals?

Sarcasm?

Like, there's only so deep I can go with all these unsolid ideas about trade, value etc. at a point it gets nowhere

OK Ash

👍

Money does create hierarchies, though the utility for trade can justify that. Though hedging against the tendency for accumulation is important if you are worried about economic justice.

You know that you can explain how a group views a concept without believing in that concept right

You cannot read

I mostly just feel if someone is a communist, socialist, ancap, whatever, I don't want to try to change their opinion, I'd rather just get along with them... and I'd appreciate it if they don't feel the need to insert their belief into all aspects of everyone's life.. like Neos in that it's completely optional

atleast take note that inflation harms the little guy more than the hoarder of wealth

it's an abstraction of resources, closer to information than a physical good. the loss of context in that abstraction is sort of an issue IMO.

Anarchists generally don't like money

They also won't like private property, and distinguish private and personal property from each other.

I see it as a useful technology with problematic applications personally.

Anarchists want to research and create alternatives to currency for the distribution of resources

Anarchism doesn't mean no economy, it means a different one

There's many schools of thought on it.

i agree, but i also think that there are tendencies in information systems that are unique to such systems. we take the utility with the understanding of the nature of abstraction. i just think that means we need to address the loss of information when institutions start to optimize for that singular metric. it is a limited model, and as its interactions exceed its modeling capacity, we need to create a model that better represents the context of the decisions being made.

i don't think it's controversial to say the profit motive as an institutional driving force creates remarkably myopic institutions.

Anarchism works on a system where a hierarchy has to justify itself, or be systematically replaced with organizations that use horizontal power structures in the event that hierarchies cannot justify themselves.

It's pretty basic philosophy of anarchism, like what you'd learn in a 101 class

Don't us schools avoid anarchism and its offshoots?

This is stuff I learned in high school

I'm sorry you went to a college that let you down that way.

I didn't learn about anyone but Stirner via his hanging around the Young Hegelians until i took up an independent study of anarchist thought tbh.

and i really don't like Stirner that much XD but calling things spooks is a fun meme.

Let you down by passing you when you didn't actually attend

You just made it sound like the material wasn't very substantial since you could cram it all at the end

Then... Why is your reading comprehension so poor? Why did you think I was espousing anarchist views rather than explaining them?

I am sick-brain right now and typing on a vr keyboard. I am going to resist my urge to delve into the nuances of anarchist thought in an unrelated telegram channel and instead go watch Legally Blonde.

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Neos amirite?

I mean, this whole situation could get a lot worse, I just hope things get going in the public space at least this year...

Tbh the buybacks are actually pretty smart. Take ncr out of circulation at a cheap price.. there’s not much left in terms of sell pressure now

Where the heck is Karel? Genuine question.

Not really, its not good when one entity is holding so much of it.

You’re delusional if you think the owner of the project owning a lot of tokens is a problem

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I'm going to spell v0te and p0ll with zeros from now on

there are probably anti bot bots that have those blacklisted

So embarrassing

NFT world metaverse ban from Microsoft and team release plan in 3 day

Now 6 month waiting for update

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hi

Email Karel at hello@neos.com

allo

moderate. Been testing Neos on the SteamDeck.

oof. Debated on getting a unit installed to help with efficiency, since there's an old cement block for where some stairs used to be just outside my room's window. However, then the tubing would be a respectable distance still away so... eh.

only double the cost of my fursuit. Honestly, that isn't a bad quote and is a more than powerful enough amount of cooling and heating. Double points if heatpump options are available down the road

get lost

@Aship_NeverDm @mariobit12 @Chimpu12 Ban these sacks of shit please Andrea @malooniac 🙏

maybe you've never talked to me and just think whatever the hell you want

its ok though I've taken one look at you and made alot of assumptions too

they wouldn't help, besides I'd rather hold my NCR to zero than give someone like that the time of day

I'd also go for anything right to make the price go higher in a stable way without being another bubble

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Metaverse coins pumping today

This is an opportunity to change the trend for NCR.. there’s so little in circulation now and we had a long redistribution phase

all in

They didn't even care until crypto became a quasi-political word for bored furs to obsess over in lieu of having actual issues to give a shit about.

is this a problem? No. Can you ignore it entirely and play your game? Yes.

their response is no we're going to make it a problem, cause strife, then point to our own pile of shit we caused and say "look? this is why we need to scam and take away the rights of the other users"

https://imgur.com/NnBfCig

It sounds like they don't even known much about its history

though here he's trying to color it like Karel slipped it in like a rider on a piece of US legislation to Froox

Its history was that it was a listed patreon perk, like the non-existent NFTs and the priority issue voting system. No clue why people keep wanting to argue it had more impact than that as far as keeping the lights on.

Who is arguing about its impact? The question is: Was it sold to the users, yes or no?

and I don't know how the mint got to $14 if no one was buying it.

and why would Froox say that if not for NCR Neos wouldn't be around? Can you argue against that?

Trivially. It was a single patreon perk, isolating its impact is not possible. we might as well say storage space saved Neos.

I don't think trying to isolate its impact is really something that can be done either, nor do I think it's even fair

You can easily get a number of voices saying "I didn't care about it I only did patreon for storage" but that doesn't represent everyone and their interests or thoughts/desires, etc

It's really only a problem when the team starts wanting to isolate that impact

NCR will go up there is no down from here , this is dawn of new order

it will likely stay vaguely 'stable' around 0.30 - 0.40 for a while assuming buybacks continue. but I wouldn't expect any major changes unless an announcement is posted

You will see, the day of reckoning will come

kept in mind that each buyback recently has been at a loss

It might, but ncr is intended as a 'utility' token so it is better for the token to hold a consistent price or very gradually grow.

It will eclipse GBP

ok

It will spread larger than just neos

One token one nation

If I'm not mistaken, aren't the buybacks taking higher priority over people who have been trying to buy NCR via minting methods or just in general?

Not sure why not just let the prices fall, and people who do genuinely support the project buy at the lower prices and when things recover, let the increased value naturally done via progress be the reward

That's a good thing for a utility token to have stable price. Sadly that doesn't seem possible with NCR

but I love buying storage space for friends. That's the only reason I even have partial interest in buying more NCR

a usable in-game currency needs carefully chosen sinks and sources that keep the circulation to accommodate the demand. It doesn't have to be stable to any fiat, it just needs to be stable in itself mostly

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There's alot of weird expectations here about what price movement should look like

Like that price movements should be these linear, slow climbs up that surprise no one

Or that if something goes from $.20 to $10 that it shouldn't retrace, as if it's a flaw in the system that people would take profits on that kind of move

Or I got called a liar for pointing out what tatters the yen is currently in, or other volatility like in stocks, where netflix is down to a third of its value

Or how about a commodity? Does that have "utility"? Like the futures price of oil that went NEGATIVE, and is now almost $100 a barrel?

Apparently stuff like this can't happen and cryptos are these magical things that are volatile because... just because they are.

Ideally we'd get transparency and a no meddling approach to NCR's price, and let it be its own thing while a market gets built and other services it can pay for emerges

I don't want another shitty linden system. I want something I can take out of the game and swap, or that I can gamble with without worrying about some ToS breathing down my neck about what I can or can't do... and don't trust the hands-on approach of managing a currency by this company because ideally a metaverse platform should be able to outlive the company that made it imo

and the merits of NCR don't have anything to do with the patreon imo, that's just some weird hostile rationalization to try to convince people that it's OK for certain people to be scammed by abstracting what YOU think their money was supposed to go to or what "kinds of people" were buying when, and I'm kind of disappointed to see certain people take to arguing that

I've noticed certain people try to act like the rational sort, but when chips are down they always take a certain side 100% of the time and don't really seem interested in fairness.

but whatever Im gonna pas out now

Late to this conversation, but just wanted to say that nature IS hierarchy. Anarchism, communism, etc. will never work because they're unnatural systems and have no future without ultimately descending to repression and authoritarianism, as has been proven time and again.

You have received your NCR, I am still waiting on half my patreon perks. No one guaranteed you profit. No one even guaranteed you the existence of NCR. But you have it. What about that is unfair?

As you said, the price of commodities fluctuates all the time. I don't feel like figuratively or literally building my stuff on the back of fossil fuels. Nor do I have any interest in naive crypto-libertarian posturing about the purity of an unregulated currency.

If NCR had a DAO, or other method of governance that could actually address the challenges of managing a complex open system outside the company it would have a good faith argument for long term utility. As it stands, the majority of the token is controlled by one entity, and they are literally acting as the NCR federal reserve. NCR cannot 'outlive the company that made it'.

NCR does nothing and will continue to do nothing. It has no inherent value, produces nothing and isn't even decentralized. It doesn't serve your vision, it doesn't serve my vision, it doesn't serve the striking team's vision. So what about it is worth defending?

Jordan Peterson over here 🙄 "Network theory is unnatural; can't you see all networks are just trees from the view of the most naturally important node?"

If you're going to take such a bad faith approach to what I said, at least try to be more intelligent about it

Hierarchy requires interpretation. You have to make assumptions about the purpose of the system you are analyzing. Those assumptions are not 'natural', though they may be reasonable. Appealing to the 'naturalness' of hierarchy is fallacious anyway, so I don't take the argument seriously.

You just typed out nonsense

Use smaller words

Mononucleosis

I am making a simple point: hierarchical relationships are natural. Not that all nature is hierarchical or only organizational principle.

You're welcome to try and refute that without meaningless word salad.

I did answer the question. To me, hierarchy is hermeneutical, not innate. It exists when we read it into nature, it is not inherent in nature. We can create a hierarchy of a tide pool ecosystem that would vastly differ from the wider ocean. It would be just as valid to imagine, say, the food chain as a network.

Lolllll hermeneutical

We describe patterns in many ways, seeing any single model as 'naturally correct' is unscientific at the very least.

you're creating straw men

that's not what i said

Arguing from naturality is pointless, we can not defy nature as we are ourselves natural

No, I'm saying exactly what i said. All networks look like trees from a single node. I think it's silly to extrapolate that to the 'naturalness' of trees.

Artificial materials natural operation

Negativity only leads to pain suffering and violence

No it's not.

>Team crashes utility of NCR
>Team points to non-utility of NCR to justify crashing it and removing it from Neos

That's basically the argument. It's stupid.

NCR is not removed

Never will be

It will only expand

Yes, though our observations naturally will come from assumptions of purpose. We cannot describe complex systems with perfect fidelity, we accept the limitations of our models and look for more accuracy when we find anomalies in their predictions. What we do not do is impose the model onto the data, that /is/ reality denial. Hierarchy is a convenient and understandable descriptor of a complex system which is useful but inaccurate. However, when it becomes a metanarrative to justify sociological systems, it's no longer doing its descriptive work :P

thanks. i'll remember this when i vote in 2024

I dropped mine when the additional perks that came with the headless access became irrelevant. The NCR I have pays for storage, my headless-client hasn't been updated yet, so no need to renew any access rights or for entry for the support channels... so kind of no need for it in my case

likewise here. Upon discovering a critical exploit to a competing platform, I left it entirely and funded Neos immediately to gain access to the headless client, since server operations are my jam. Even during my time having issues with the platform, I continued my support anyway.

It will improve soon trust in process

yo Exo what are you smoking

Trust

Funny number does not matter currently, we are at a dawn of new roads

NCR will alive

It is not much longer now friends

I just use it for storage space. I tried to buy extra swag VR gear, but that failed due to some misunderstandings. Going to have 10GB for another 10 years, and I still have extra left a good chunk of NCR left over.

lol. I just sent it to a non ERC-20 wallet, and the system just auto accepted the contract.

are you arguing we ignore anomalies? :P

Just spread positivity no use argue now , no use fight , soon all will end

words to live by

Soon in a thousand years

The data does not lie, we are near the end you will see

uh bro, but have you considered the hermeneutics?

Hey, you're the one telling me to correct my view of the scientific method, which was 'use a model, note anomalies, correct the model'. Unless of course you are merely being pedantic about the description.

What you need to correct is the fidelity of your observations and potential imposition of systematic narratives onto social models

naw. The value of NCR doesn't really impact me, as it is neither a loss nor a gain. If it goes up, that's cool. If it doesn't, that's fine, too. In all cases and outcomes, the only one that I could even deem a loss would be the platform's shutdown, but I have backup plans in situation. So I'll just hold indefinitely and watch the show.

word

Wise words from the natural hierarchy sociologist over here *giggles*

ew

None of what you said has anything to do with that NCR was sold to bystandards and how those bystandards are innocent. You don't care about NCR? Because your pure and enlightened political beliefs are just so above that kind of shit? Fine, but that has little to do with those who do and should be allowes to engage with it without being under constant threat. That's something that's guaranteed by atleast half of the company.

That's the thing that's good, is that in Neos we were promised not profits (I resent you thinking I want them guaranteed to me), but that you can have your principles and I can have mine, and we don't have to trip over each other. You can build your stuff for free or in exchange for the (petro)dollar or my homegrown tomatoes or whatever. But underlying systems allowing unregulated exchange (and one that is entirely side-steppable) is something I'll just briefly say is needed to have a metaverse for all, which is what I saw being built in Neos. If anything it feels like you, devs and discord are more interested in making it your own little political playground than Karel ever was.

And do you honestly believe we'd be ALLOWED to have a DAO? Can you IMAGINE the fuss certain members of the community would have? And you think thr team wouldn't just outright reject any notion of the token having any sort of governance or additional utility? No they're not interested in intelligently designing a system that's made to last or is fair or autonomous or even has purpose... They have for many months now been subtly and unsubtly trying to undermine it in the name of whatever their fancy political beliefs are and whatever is the popular rhetoric among the furry community. Any discussion about it has been slammed shut or attacked thoughtlessly.

So don't pretend like anyone arguing for NCR's existance is being the unreasonable one. Maybe it doesn't line up with your beliefs about inflation good for the little man (its not) but why do you get to shrug off the thousands who do believe in it and aren't here to hear you preach (in English) all of your contrived reasons that they should get scammed and swept under the rug? I'd have been pleased to hear you atleast once take their side.

You should calm and get water friend

yes please hydrate Orc

we worry about you sometimes

Im calm, hydrated, in my lane.

so glad to hear it my friend

Good good

I appreciate the thought that went into this post, Orc... but it appears that you haven't considered the hermeneutics of the situation

hopefully there's some recourse for funders when we find out what is actually going on behind the veil. What's craziest is no one thought to tell Froox "maybe you shouldn't say that right now" but it appears everyone was so into sniffing each other's farts and being praised by a community of teenagers living at home that they never thought about acting like a company

instead of a group of pals who like to cuddle and have too much fun goading outsiders

He say some new?

There is a lot of they in there, but I am the one making the argument. There is also, still, not a lot of reasons to support NCR in there.

I agree that we need a decentralized payment solution. I am not being facetious when I argue for alternative solutions, like an uncapped token with algorithmically determined supply or a DAO governed supply. Because I think those might actually work as long as we don't explode onto the wider speculative assets scene again.

But I don't see NCR as a capable or even adequate solution as it stands, and I do not understand the idea that we should die on some hill for it. I don't really get why that's 'fair'.

As a hobby project, it's uninteresting, as a stand alone product, it's uncompetitive. What is the value being defended?

Why

@malooniac spam above

That's the thing isn't it? We aren't allowed to have genuine discussions on improving the token with the team or on the discord. The team isn't just ignorant of any developments in the field, but incentivized to snub them. So goodluck getting them to spend any brainpower or affection toward the project. And part of the community is ideologically opposed to the field outright regardless of whatever you'd propose.

Unfortunately it's not your hobby project and the hill to die on is about the -people- involved who hold it, not about whatever metrics pique your interest.

And I mean, you are aware we can make changes to the chain, right? But the problem is that we can't even talk about them and you're more in favor of closing the book on everyone and rationalizing it with a shrug. You've seemingly got no problem with there being these unfair and sometimes ideological barriers up, and instead just want everyone to shut up and forget about it. You seem quite comfy with all of the holders being unjustly dragged through the mud in this feud of CEOvsCTO and all the community voices pleading for them to be discarded and scammed isn't something to blink at, apparently, because I've never really seen you take issue with it ever. You just softly argue in favor of it.

sometimes send a PM and she's always taken care of it in short order... those who clamor that we're unmoderated just never tried I guess... or mostly they just want the yordle to be punished for being coarse with them

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back to playing on my steam deck. got a lot of documenting to do

I've been banging that documentation drum since I started playing tbh. I've considered just sitting down and writing a stub for all the components I know, but honestly I don't know them that well. I don't think what I'd end up producing would be good documentation but I guess it would at least exist.

It would still be bad >.> I don't think crowd sourced documentation really can work for a closed source game engine.

My opinion is that NCR doesn't fit well with the team. I don't think any amount of arguing is going to make that less true. I think that developing NCR as it's own product is at least a direction that would force consideration of NCR's competitiveness and lifecycle outside the only value assumption being a captive market.

As it stands, I would not argue for NCR. I view it as at best parasitic because it's frankly a horrible experience to use as someone even just casually interested in using it in game.

And it stopped being fun to use it. I honestly liked having a native currency. It was cute and it didn't trigger quite the same guilt complex when you randomly gifted it to people. Though I kinda feel bad about those now having experienced how hard it is to actually off ramp that value. :<

We deserve better than what NCR is. Holders or no. It's not worth fighting for, and if it can't become something worth using on it's own then all it's ever going to be to me is a regret. The product was never developed. There was never an NCR team. The plan always seems to have been to coast by and hope NEOS' success meant other people would do the leg work to make the NCR on and off boarding experiences remotely pleasant.

So, yeah, I'm fine with it being sunset if it is between it and NEOS. I think the holders would be better served with it instead being developed out as it's own product. Less buy backs, more funding the infrastructure required to make its use a smooth experience.

I think that was both a real option, and even a preferable one over the constant coasting. But I don't have much faith NCR will be developed to the point of competitiveness. So I have come to terms with it being effectively sunset.

I don't think that's unfair. I think that's unfortunate. But you are right about the crypto stigma being a factor. I just don't see enough potential in NCR to offset the cost of having to fight that stigma. And I don't really see how NCR is helped by being attached to a project that lacks any sort of enthusiasm about it.

The scenarios thrown around tend to be to the tune of replacing the NEOS team with one that will develop out NCR as a product. I think that is asinine. As rough as NEOS is, it's a hell of a lot better than NCR on it's own. I have no idea why anyone would want to gut NEOS to save NCR as it exists now.

But maybe you see the potential to change NCR drastically only if it's attached to NEOS. I don't understand that perspective. I welcome that explanation if you have it. To me, NCR has the same potential of becoming a good product in either the third party relationship scenario or the gut the core team scenario.

For me, I'm just confused why not just use ETH directly. If it's piggy backing off its own system, why not just just use that instead? Feels like unneeded steps for quite a few things.

At least High Fidelity had a reason for why it didn't use the Ethereum blockchain, despite forking it with their own system, and that boiled down to transaction speeds and wanting to have no transaction costs. The only way that could be done is with a federated system that they came up with.
At least with that, namely speed and optimized control, make sense. I'm just confused on NCR's reasons over just the base systems it is built on.

The difference seems to be that to me NCR is the people who hold it.To me, the individual players involved are more important than whoever is clinging to the authority over it. This includes non-english speakers who bought it and who play Neos, which is bigger than many seem to know.

And I think you'd like us to believe development of NCR is set in stone or so involved that it needs to be compared to Neos entire development instead of taking just atleast a crypto native developer and a non-hostile stance. You want to make it sounds like NCR isn't a work in progress as much as Neos itself is.

And I'm not surprised your take because it's the same softly shrugging rationalizing of what is a clumsy scam that you can hardly defend it. You just go "eh its just.. its just not a good fit for the teamies, yaknow?" and hope everyone should nod and take it up the ass. Or go on about it not being "interesting" because you must have some brainworm about currencies needing to be inflationary (a goddamn weird take considering all the havoc inflation is wretching on only the lower classes).

What's not a good fit for the team seems to be any sort of responsibility or goodwill is what it is. Nothing apparently is a good fit for them, whether it's new hires or deadlines or anything.

If you only see two potentials for it (because youre being disingenuous and know there are MANY ways this could be handled) then no I don't think the team is entitled to just one good scam to pull on people. If that's the case then yes they don't deserve our respect and should be replaced instead of being rewarded with sweeping control which they already showed an abuse of. Especially if the reason is so weak as "we just don't want to bother". You should be reminded there is or was another founder who actually wants to do right to those users.

Yeah. It really annoys me that you have to buy Ethereum just to transfer NCR. Though if they abstracted that complexity on their own exchange or something honestly I'd accept just the cool factor of having your own currency as an argument for the complexity.

But I'd think it would be cooler to run your own chain. Like. I will accept passion project arguments XD. If something seems cool to you I think that justifies doing it. Hell, I think just wanting to try out ERC-20 smart contracts is a valid reason to do it.

I mean, that's kind of what happenned with HiFi. Just being a transaction system was only one part of the idea. Proof of Purchases (early NFTs in a way), information validation (18+, has valid License, validated information by X, prefers Superman over Batman), and much more was all part of it. In essence, we see that with ERC-20, but for the purpose of a platform, Neos just using it for currency sake is kind of a low ball, considering a competitor was doing more early on

I accept it's under development. It also had a huge warchest of Ethereum. It had more funding than NEOS has ever had over it's lifetime.

I believe in NEOS. I have no idea why I should believe in NCR when its supporters don't think it can shape up to be worthwhile.

If you never believed that NCR could stand on its own even with all that funding, then what exactly is the scam?

NCR is a bad product. You won't defend it on its merits. Instead you argue that we should make the people who lost out betting on it whole, possibly at the cost of the company.

Hey, maybe that should be the case. I would hate that. I want this place to exist very strongly. But just because I don't find the argument strong doesn't mean it might not have merit.

I don't think that the team is scamming anyone. I do think that people where incredibly callus when NCR was crashing. I did call, repreditively, for more empathy.

I still consider everyone who bought into the vision of NEOS that sold them on NCR part of the community. But I'm not going to argue to keep NCR around when it brings us nothing on the off chance a speculation bubble reverses the bad fortune.

IMO, the team has more right to determine the direction of the company than Karel. If that direction leads a court without skin in the game to conclude they acted unjustly then like, cool. I'm open to being wrong about them not scamming people.

I strongly disagree with the assertion now, but I recognize as both an NCR holder and an active collaborator that I have biases that could prevent me from seeing the argument.

To be frank, if your scam argument holds water I don't see the company escaping the repercussions irrespective of who wins the power struggle. So my interest there is mostly in what I feel to be right in terms of workers rights. I do not think that they are individually morally culpable to 'scamming' anyone. But like, I'd massively prefer that people feel remediated if that argument holds water. If it doesn't, which is my current belief, then I just am sorry that they had to go through this. We should seriously consider providing some grief counseling services. I know I personally struggled through this experience and I'm sure some people ended up taking it a lot harder than I did.

Yeah. It's really not acceptable IMO. Got to get on that early. I do sympathisé with the situation now though. When you're this far into development with no real documentation like. They should contract a technical writer and just bite the bullet to get a good base done. I don't think it's tenable to catch up without someone working on it full-time.

I don't think LogiX is bad the same way I don't think JavaScript is bad. Like, there could be better languages, but it's a two week miracle from a brilliant hacker and it will work if I scream at it right.

I've been using it since navigator.

I mean, I think it is? I like LogiX, but I recognize it is flawed, but I still think it's useful. I still realize it will drive people nuts by comparison.

I'm somewhat glad you're still an ass even when we're almost agreeing.

I think you've identified real pain points in both LogiX's current iteration and our lack of documentation. You are right, nothing will get done until the power struggle gets resolved and that is frustrating.

...can I get a drink of water without this chat pinging my watch all the time?

But I still like LogiX, I think it is neat. :< I'm confused why that makes you angry tbh.

Well. Okay, fair. I am reading into your behaviors.

Logix is okay. I have my house running on a visual programming setup, but the advanced stuff just makes me break out the Javascript programmable nodes. It actually is nice when I can make custom nodes, and is something I voted for in Neos at one point

Maybe? I dunno. You called me an idiot and really tore into my analogy. I don't think it's unreasonable to get the message you are mad/frustrated with me.

people are still acting up? Can we bring that other person back? They were pretty chill.

but yeah, I'll admit Logix isn't perfect. Really had me double take when colors were their own data type and not just a Float4, and the websocket system took awhile to figure out, since at the time, the documentation for it was nonexistent.
It might be harder to explain logix only because it does require a different mindset. It's more about flow and less about direct action. That and a constant game of "Where is this function and what is it called?" everytime I'm working on something. Being able to type stuff out has the perk that you can just go straight to what you want, but visual stuff requires a toolbox, and I'm not quite as versed with the current organization.

anyway, speaking of finding stuff, once I find my battery banks, I'll be popping in for awhile and continue tinkering with stuff. Or relaxing, Still on the fence with that

The extra bits are not worthless. I wanted to make a flattering comparison with an early web pioneer while still levying a criticism. I feel that is an apt comparison. Early JS needed a lot of work. This is early LogiX. It needs a lot of work.

I respect froox and what he has done. I do not understand your insistence not to criticize respectfully, or celebrate what I do like about people. Neat hacks are cool.

You are telling me what I meant? Does your interpretation also explain why I called them both two week miracles from brilliant hackers? Are you insisting I think ES6+ only took 2 weeks?

Zig. I know what I mean, and I am very up front about it when there is a communication issue. Consider that I am telling you the truth about my own intents.

they're still here? Weird.

"scam" is really just my way of summing in a word this situation people who are being dropped after money had been collected from them for years.

And it's not so much that NCR is a bad product in that there's no store. However for what it is, a store of value in-game, I think it's just fine. I've given it to people numerous times effortlessly and that's been fun. And KFC has been experimented with plenty in interesting ways and I consider those same experimentations basically potential future ones for NCR. And that imagination makes it enjoyable for people to hold or invest in it, because it excites them about the future of the platform. So what's wrong with it?

And when NCR was crashing, no one really needed their dear empathy, lmao. The whole crash was -caused- by Froox and friends. That's the kinda whole thing. That this real, measurable damage caused to people was -deliberate-. You seem to want to never acknowledge that. This isn't about people who "lost out betting" so get out of here with that shit. This is about trying to make a subset of the community collateral damage. That's always what has been going on. And you're playing a role in that by trying to smokescreen what's going on.

None

You know what is really sad. Not to long ago frooxious hired on someone specifically to help with programming. This is a rare thing, because non of the other volunteers do much in the vain of programming the main engine. They all work on peripheral aspects, like rendering and such. The core software is all frooxious.

Well anyways the one person who was hired on to help with programming was basically side barred immideatly and not allowed to touch anything. And they cept him relegated to his little corner until he quit. It was really depressing. Because he was a good programmer. Frooxious just did not want to share his project.

The biggest shame is that this guy had a brilliant redesign of the logix UI. But because of how poorly optimized neos is it was resource innificent. And Frooxious opted to ostracize him as oppose to try to make logix easier to work with.

It’s tragic that the legacy of Neos will be as a shining example of how not to structure a social VR startup. There have been monumental missteps on both sides including but not limited to the 50/50 ownership distribution, to the lack of formal developer contracts, the lack of NDAs, the lack of any kind of IP ownership structure, and the mishandling of NCR’s optics such as in the case of the burn poll.

The furries have a problem with nepotism and hiring within their ranks to increase the volume of their echo chamber, their incredibly toxic and delusional hubris that drove them to believe they could start a coup against the CEO which clearly has not worked, and their double standard of both investing and profiting from NCR while later trying to detach it from the platform.

Either way Neos is a doomed project. If the furries win they will continue to struggle with no viable revenue model and only a trickle of Patreon funds. If Karel wins he will need to rebuild the development team from the ground-up including a new MVP CTO who will likely end up having to re-write a lot of missing code contributions from the furry devs who pull their commits on git because nobody took 5 minutes to draft IP ownership documentation early on.

What could have been one of the most powerful Metaverse projects in existence will end up as a footnote on Wikipedia and that’s fucking sad.

I think it's more they just ignore it more than anything (can I have some of their optimism XD) but... That makes me wonder why they aren't worried about the platform dying as much as me or others are.

Ye I do

That has come across my mind a couple times... Where I was thinking (before the big mess), if Neos is to get bigger, the majority's opinion on things is likely not going to be the majority in the future, and they probably won't like it.

How is not compliant?

That's why surveying and consulting with team members who are dealing with new users is fairly important. Having people organize that kind of data and present it are kind of the only real ways to understand where to steer the boat, or at the very least, see which ways the winds are blowing. Usually you'll see some kind of pattern.
But, of course, we can't predict the future, only accommodate for possibilities and leave room to have options to deal with it.

None

Good morning gang☀️🌻

Okay okay, let’s see if I can inject a bit of optimism here🤔😁
I mean, I get it. Neos is a mess. It can seem like a kinky little community for a niche furry fandom to those who don't see the full picture, but these are just the few loud voices.

The platform is absolutely *not dead*. And the fact that we're not dead is a testament to how much people still love Neos.
We have wonderful creators ❤️
https://twitter.com/JayNekoVR/status/1547415099509542913?s=20&t=kqSKbnMstFn-SwTA8fPRCQ

People who use Neos as a professional tool.
https://twitter.com/sirkitree/status/1544807204221374464?s=20&t=kqSKbnMstFn-SwTA8fPRCQ

We have dancers, we have educators…
So let's not exaggerate.

Yes, it's true that our user base has been declining, partly that's because the platform itself isn't easy to use and has a very “creative” interface.
There are still about 280 peak time users, 144 in the last 30 days as far as steam charts go, and while it could be way more at least it's a pretty steady number given the situation😁

It's easy to talk about how you would do this or that differently.
I hear people say things like, “Neos was better in the old days.” But what does that even mean? Are we talking about the same thing? Because if you look at funding, we've never been able to scale up until now.
Before Neos was big enough to actually hire professionals, I think people knew that processes and documentation were important. They just didn't know how to make it work. Asking someone to help out with your project as a volunteer is something enirely different than paying to a technical writer or UX designer.
And for a lot of people on the current team it’s been hard to actually scrutinize their own process and admit that some things would have been better left up to experts. (Like the UI again😁)
That is what is called professionalism tho.
And we are going to grow more of this. Much more of this. 😉

You can continue to blame people for this and that but the fact is we have already taken responsibility for the current state of platform many times.

We know the future of Neos is not about being “a hugbox" for a selected few, as someone here put it (quite funny haha😁). It’s about acessibility, open-sourcing, decentralisation, cross-platform and cross-device compatibility and of course about variety. From giving you tools to live your virtual life to making it easier to get things done for your business or training program.

Metaverses come and fail since Second Life had a go in 2013. Neos is not dead. It’s just taking a little power nap to come out more powerful 😉💪

nice Andrea, just keep up :) thanks a lot

So what is actively being done to get neos out of its power nap state. As far as we can tell this has just turned into a competition of who can wait the other out the longest. Can you confirm that Karel has been actively doing anything other then waiting for Frooxious and his volunteers to fold?

He would be a bad businessman if he did just that☺️. Announcements will come when it's their time. It's not really about a waiting competition. It's more like ....game of chess I suppose. There are steps and actions and you make your moves according to what the other side is doing, while you have a strategy. Even though in this case it's not about crushing the other side but rather a mutually beneficial result. 😁( I love chess ever since Queens Gambit so you have to excuse me😁). Nobody is just sat there waiting. And I appreciate your direct question. Thanks.

How many people here enjoys actually playing Neos? ☺️ I talk to a few of you every now and then and always happy to meet up in Neos and see your new creations. ☺️I think some of you are incredibly talented and my jaw drops every time I see all those fun avatars and worlds people make❤️

Any latest favourite world you can recommend, just of your head?☺️

I guess this might be a bit of a weird one to directly answer, since it's a bit like saying "How many people enjoy playing on the PS5/XBox/Switch/Deck?" Like, for me, I enjoy tinkering with things and planning out what can be built from the newly learned knowledge. But as far as entertainment goes, I can acknowledge that it isn't exactly exciting to everyone when compared to playing an actual title or game part of a platform.

So if it's more for say experiences that exist within Neos, I haven't really done much in quite awhile. I remember some game maps being reconstructed and being able to wonder them, but that's about it. Amongst my bucket of ideas, I'd want to make something for casual hanging out, but I am not quite there yet in understanding Neos's tool box.

When's next update?

“Tinkering” is a great term! 😁Many thanks for sharing your experience 😊

I completely disagree with your second message here. My volunteer work is designed to be at the same quality as my professional work and the only difference there is the time i can provide.

I was scrutinizing my processes almost daily till I stopped doing them when this mess happened.

I'm not sure you intended it but It felt a little hurtful to diminish our volunteers contributions in this way. Some of our volunteers are actually professions including ones in many of the areas you described as needing to hire professionals in.

The rest of your message is a great outlook though, thank you.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Of course I have always respected the work of the team, and I can't take credit for any past success of the platform - it wasn't my idea, or my design, or my code. But I think I always made that clear that team effort mattered to me.

But when processes are all over place in a company, with people just "knowing" what needs to be done rather than documenting it formally, with proper timeline and goal keeping, it makes it impossible to get a single date on the roadmap out. And it creates stress.
I think we can agree as you were in these neverending “board meetings” where we got grilled for not delivering even the most basic things.

It felt terrible but I have never complained, not a single time. Because I would rather get stuff done. And because I know that it was not necessarily fault of the team - the structure and the culture was broken.
But you also know that I really tried to fix it when I joined in. With you guys.
Only to be told eventually that it was "too late."
So frankly I am quite glad you opened up this conversation now because talking of hurtful - do you know how that feels to spend hours and hours of working up strategies only to be told that people have no interest in fixing things?

I have my utmost respect for Frooxius, for you and for many people on the team. I know that people have been working hard, and I'm grateful to all of you for that. But I also need you acknowledge that there were many things that were less than ideal and it was almost impossible to get a professional on board from the outside of Neos - because if you keep everything so cryptic and complicated, and virtually impossible for anyone outside of Neos to grasp, it's not a sustainable development strategy in my humble opinion.

> But when processes are all over place in a company, with people just "knowing" what needs to be done rather than documenting it formally, with proper timeline and goal keeping, it makes it impossible to get a single date on the roadmap out. And it creates stress.

Our GitHub while sometimes, not up to date repeatedly seemed to be ignored when the conversations of the "new roadmap" came up. We had work in progress. Documented on that GitHub roadmap. It was unclear yes, but I wouldn't call it cryptic

>people have no interest in fixing things?
We had interest, the approach was wrong I think.

From my personal opinion, as a new member to the company I wished you had spent more time trying to understand our existing processes and plans rather than coming out with your own ideas, plans, goals and tooling.

Whenever I join a new job I spend at least a week basically "soaking" i see what's going on and how best to help. I meet with everyone who is suitable and ask them what they need help with. etc.

I try to understand their existing processes before changing and adjusting them. I don't start with an initial approach of "we're doing it this way now" I take them on a journey to learn how we can adjust things into a new better way of operating.

However, this is all moot(not the right word). Based on the existing conversations, its not likely to be a productive conversation to continue. I have nothing personal against you Andrea and I enjoy your optimism.

No doubt, some members of this channel will wake up soon and start trolling me, but I'll be busy doing other items at that time.

Honestly, I feel that's why discussions on creations within Neos aren't held here. Criticism is acceptable and often welcome, but the pessimistic responses usually upholds stronger, in addition to inconsistent representation of rules.
Sometimes you do get pockets where this isn't the case, but it's sadly not the norm. It may be from the vocal few, but it's enough that of the 300+ members here, silence is often the emissary.

There is one quote that is quite fitting : “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

You might try to pin this on me for bringing “changes” but the fact is that the way things were up till then clearly did not work. Otherwise there would be none of this mess. There have been some liberties taken in the past that are not common in many companies. If any. I think people took things for granted.
I want to assure you that I was not trying to force my way through anything. But I am standing firmly behind Karel’s vision of the future of Neos because I believe in it, and because it is what people who bought NCR signed up for.

And as far as I am aware, nobody from the Team Frooxius (if we gonna be so awkwardly separatist) has made clear how exactly they see the future of Neos and delivering what people who bought in with NCR signed up for.

I have no doubt that you have good intentions, but it seems to me like we're going around in circles again and I agree that we have better things to do than re-reviewing history.

I thank you for your interaction however and hope you have a fantastic day ☺️

I am not pinning this on you at all. Quite the opposite.

As for the quote, we weren't doing the same thing over and over again. We were slowly adjusting our processes to be better. Progressive Enhancement with a growth mindset.

What we needed from you was a helping hand to guide us and steer us. But it felt(again personal opinion here) that your changes were too brash, quick and without consideration of the existing processes, people, policies and dynamics that existed that contributed to this.

Oh I am all for slow adjusting but when releasing somethig so simple like 2 minute trailer video takes 2 years (and it's still not done😁), then I think it's time to speed up a little 😁😁☀️

Okay no offence, let's just agree to disagree on this one 😁😉

That one I was not involved with, so I can't comment but I take great offense to your use of emojis there as an attempt to de-escalate a "dig" at the team.

So yes, we'll agree to disagree.

🌻

the last comment for the sake of politeness and good manners - I do apologise for the emojis above if that is perceived as offensive. I can see why that could come across as passive-agressive this way. Not my intention. So pardon me @ProbablePrime . Have a great day and I do mean that ☺️

I don't want to butt in anywhere but depending on your country's texting culture, emoji usage seem to be seen way differently, not always thought of immediately as sarcastic

None

I'm really thankful for Andrea to come out and talk here to us. This has been quite something to read.

I understand this feeling. In some brief interactions I've seen you guys say things like "we don't care" and other non-interactive language that's shut the door on dialogue.

After all, it's not needed anyway, because there are plenty of others ready to agree with you always. Infact it's probably quite a look to shut down conversations with an air of authority.

I understand, let me know if you feel this is happening and we can talk about it.

sigh. I want to be angry but fine.. thanks. I guess I will try.

oh you can be angry thats fine but maybe grab a big stick and gently poke me when you see that

Noted.. thanks.

None

just move to the opposite hemisphere every 6 months XD

What board meetings are you referring to? I don't remember anyone being grilled for failing to deliver. Many roadmap/requested ideas were discussed and some status of items were asked, but I wouldn't qualify any of that as grilling as it wasn't our role to hold anyone accountable.

I can absolutely understand the heat problem. 😅 it’s over 36 over here and it makes putting on a hot headset less than appealing 😅

I heard the optimism from various members of the team when you joined, even some being a bit too optimistic (but understandably as they wanted to see the platform grow by leaps and bounds) and were excided to welcome good changes to get there. But I agree with Prime, connections are important and taking that time understand the people and the processes on a platform that is more of a family for most was critical. I've only been on the platform for just over the year and I still don't know the team well enough to provide input in such a way where it would come from someone informed enough to do so.

But I don't disagree with your observations, you did hone in on many of the weaknesses/struggles with the existing processes and some of the potential solutions you offered were good ones that might have worked or at least could have been adapted to work and may work in the future once things are sorted out.

I said this at many of the board meetings; other companies/projects would have killed to have the same culture and people involved with Neos. Neos was very lucky to have developed this culture and found such good people for the team, and on top of that have an absolutely incredible community which promoted good behavior and were willing to do what it takes to help others.

No company would wish upon itself a team with an inner-clique culture where hiring is impossible, deadlines are controversial and which uses that status to build strife in the community against itself.

Imagine a company would "kill" to have no say in hiring and have every effort be undermined because it would upset your culture or something. Imagine being lucky to have a community that attacks outsiders and some of its most helpful community members and run them out of the community and is hostile to its own funders.

None

I waited to see if anyone else would say something to this but apparently not