k

Ironically Sansar has come back to life while Neos died, due to new management. Looks like they're trying to get absolutely everything running again and going back to full dev work.

Prior to Geenz and Prime joining a year or so ago, there was only really Froox and Shifty that did anything user facing. With Froox doing code and Shifty doing triage and user support. All the other team members had very specialist roles, such as 3D designer, Sound Engineer, etc (though I'm honestly dying to know what those guys are doing 99% of the time given no content that features anything those roles imply ever really comes out except on very rare occasions, like the new MTC).

As a long-time entrepreneur, software-business owner, and developer, I believe the team is doing a good job considering what I can see and deduce about the health of their start-up. It is normal for a technical start-up to be focused on the nuts and bolts of the underlying product featres. It is normal for developers to assign UI/UX issues to a lower priority than "engine" issues. It is normal for developers to burn-out when they must also do support, or are asked to task-switch between various fires. Getting past start-up is really, really tough. I think this product has legs, but the funding to push it over the top probably needs to increase a lot.

I mean, there's been no development for 9 months now and the platform is haemorrhaging users. It's reputation is also shot now so... yeah.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/994639978632056993/unknown.png

Are you saying that the dev team no longer exists?

They exist, but are on-strike and thus refuse to push any updates for the game. Prime claims they're not on strike, which... is odd as I'm not sure what else you'd call refusing to work.

I see. That sidtuation is usually caused by not getting adequately paid, but still hoping that you will be paid.

Which means that the devs must have other jobs.

Which means that they may still believe in their work, but can no longer run on promises.

That's sad.

Prime does (or rather did), Geenz does, Froox is getting £2500+ p/m from his personal Patreon, not sure about Veer. Everyone else was unpaid anyway.

Got it.

The funny thing is, is that Froox is now personally getting more money than he would have when actually working on Neos, so now he's basically getting paid to... not work on Neos? lol

But it is sounding like the team is losing hope in the project then?

The team seem adamant that they're in the right and that everything will be fine (but forget the damage that this going on for so long causes). I think everyone else that isn't a die-hard Neos user has already left.

This is getting interesting.

I like the concept behind Neos, because I specialize in building systems that allow non-developers to access capabilites that are normally only accessible to developers. I am currently filling the role of Enterprise Architect and SVP with a major global company focussed on the whole distribution chain, including marketing, delivery, point-of-sale, logistics, etc. I want to use Neos to demonstrate a functioning virtual convenience store to our major customers (who are also global companies). Neos seemed perfect for creating a marketable VR experience in this space. the key is the ability to inject rudimentary logic/code into VR experiences. When I entered Neos for the first time I was getting nervous about the apparent decay - and second-lifedness of it. Lots of sad abandonment apparent. But as you say, there appears to be a lively community.

Why Neos over a much more widely used platform like VRChat?

After spending around 25 hours in Neos, it is clear that it is extremely rough around the edges. Buggy, poor UI's, lack of attention to the non-developer, non-graphics-savy person. Luckily, I am a long time developer and graphics developer - so the UI is fine for me? The underlying concept is well executed (even if it is mostly just exposing the underlying game engine.)

I have an Index, I want to build complex logic for doing marketing and retail operations into the VR experiences.

Implying that Unity has "weird behaviour" and Neos doesn't is complete bollocks to be honest.

That's also ignoring the almost endless functionality available in the Unity editor.

It very much depends what you're trying to do. Build something? Unity is better by far. Tweak something minor? Neos was easier.

Lol. Unity is a monster. Whenever a system becomes generalized (everything for everyone), it inevitably becomes a frankensien. So, it is normal for these generalized systems to get "wrapped" in interfaces that expose key functionality in sensible ways.

That's mainly because Neos hasn't had that much improved/added that could have broken them...

(the exception being BEPUv2)

Yes, the "wrapping" process is basically just an adapter pattern. Adapter patterns shield you from "dependency poisononing", creating stability.

Wrapping an engine like Unity will allow Neos to provide backward compatibility. So, if Unity makes a breaking change, Neos can make adjustments to shield its users from these changes.

You're not going to get objective answers from Cyro, Dana so just so you're aware, Neos is VERY barebones when it comes to creation. There's currently no way to search for gameobjects/slots, components, can't search when adding them, you cannot even multi-select objects in game yet so positioning things and building can take obscenely tedious amounts of time to do what should be simple tasks because the very basics are still not even there yet.

This is true. Many UI features are missing, including multi-select. But, I just use inspector to group objects. It all sucks and is way too time consuming.

If you're wondering what position I'm speaking from, I have around 2500 hours developing content for Neos and I have no affiliation to the team or any of the team members.

Affiliation with the team is why you're the least objective person I've ever met, Cyro. It feels like I could have a conversation criticizing Facebook with Mark Z and it would be more objective.

Yes. That makes sense. I could tell you have used the system quite a lot. My position is that I have been a software developer for decades. I have coded in most computer languages extensivly. I have launched and sold several software companies. I still code daily and I absolutely love startups and I love systems that allow non-developers to develop stuff.

So Neos is very cool to me - and I am sad to see that it may be on the path towards a sad empty death. When the users start to leave.... I have sad memories of watching many game-worlds die - standing there in an empty world that was once alive. A dead world is so sad...

Lol tile-based representations of Turing-complete systems always suck.

Tile-based programming is a tough one to get right.

After using Udon in a standard blueprint environment, it did remind me how utterly painful using Logix was in a 3D space. So much time was spent doing janitorial work that simply didn't need to exist.

It is maddening. I have specialized in UI/UX for so many years. I have US patents on UI/UX frameworks. And it is obvious that Neos needs some help in this area. But if the thing is dying...

Yes - C#. LOL - I was so excited when it was invented. Still my favorite language.

I need to build something that will allow me to hit my marketing API's

It's literally just the same contingent of people with random users poping in to see what the platform is that's propping up the numbers.

A few years back I invented some marketing things. I want to connect my Neos convenience store with my API's - Fuel Rewards Network and GasBuddy.

Let's just say the game is in trouble. It could die or it could be saved.

That's what's referred to as the "honeymoon period".

The users will determine the fate of Neos (or just about any other start-up).

The question for me: is there a way for me to leverage this platform while also helping it succeed? OR should I run away? My gut tells me to give it a shot. I like the concept a lot.

One of the big issues I had with Logix is that it's an absolute nightmare to move it around as you'd have to move a single node at a time all while in 3D space, which also results in you "running out of space". I tend to build organically so it'll expand over time as I evolve it (and find out extra stuff is needed to make things work due to unforseen edge cases) but the result of this becomes absolute nightmares like this. It's all good and well working on little things but when stuff gets messy, it's incredibly time consuming to refactor it. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/994650188650131567/unknown.png

So firstly, they didn't exist at the time. Secondly, I can't rely on random people's tools to do things that are so close to the core of how things function. Additionally if those tools ever fucked up, the teams response would be "Well it's a community tool, oh well".

And on top of that, I've had people's tools fuck up to the point where they broke or ruined worlds, so again, not a situation I want to be in.

Dana Hopefully you're seeing what I mean regarding Cyro here; Neos absolutely cannot be incomplete, imperfect. In every scenario, there's an answer or you're just simply using it wrong.

You didn't "say" it directly, but what you are "saying" implies it.

Yes there is a lot of decay. But, I created a decent convenience store. I am going to give a tour to a bunch of executives who know nothing about gaming or programming, but who think that the "metaverse" is the next big thing (without a clue what the metaverse might be. lol.)

There's no other way to read it, this is the issue I have with you. You literally cannot accept any criticism of Neos, ever, for any reason, regarding anything. It's infuriating beyond belief. It's like speaking to someone that's been completely brainwashed, it's absolutely crazy.

Interesting mix of optimism and pessimism here.

What else should someone do beyond workaround until is fix?

Over the years, I have created many successful products that people said were delusional before they were made. But somehow - after it exists - the same people label it realistic!

He is just player and modder nothing more, well beyond moderate

You get kicked off the moderation and mentor teams if you speak badly of Neos publicly so... yeah...

this group filled with angry children

Awesome! I absolutely love angry children!

People too negative, negativity leads to bad life

My name is Dana Ballinger. You can look at my profile on Linkedin

That's exactly what I wanted you to say....

please dont get sucked into the negativity
people in neos can help you use it but no one uses neos here

Plenty here use neo

So, what I hear is that the game is in trouble, but there may be hope. I am going to do my convenience store demo. And the advice is that I should go to discord to find technical help if I need it.

good glad to hear

Clearly not true, lol

I wonder if the Neos team would be open to a discussion? What I am trying to accomplish might represent an opportunity for Neos. I tried sending an email about what I wanted to do, but I never got a reply.

Email is handled by karel

Yeah, keep in mind that Neos sold business accounts (in the form of Neos Pro) who have all also been left out to dry.

Well, I will at least try contacting via discord and see what happens. I don't think I need anything from the team. But if this idea I am working on has legs, it might have some benefit to them.

Relying on Neos for anything at this point seems like the equivalent of trying to build on a rotting bridge. You may be ok but it's a serious risk.

Blockchain is just a tool that brings potential trust to a distributed system. I employ it in specific systems for specific purposes. But for this idea - not really. This is just about using a virtual space for marketing. I have marketing dollars from manufacturers that could be applicabale to games and virtual spaces.

I have built many things on rotting bridges. So no issue there in the short term. But in the long term, I will go directly to Unity if I cannot understand the long-term plan or viability of Neos.

Fair

Lol - Unity is ok - but a dead-end except as a component of another system/application.

UI is on a backseat like all development till this issue is resolved
Serious reports of rule violations must be submitted as a ticket for the moderation team to review. This is not my policy this is the moderation leads policy.

The state of many areas of neos is not finished. That's bad yes but there's not much that can be done until work resumes.

I don't want money from Karel. I've never asked for money from Karel

This is false. But rumors like this are common and are usually either rumors or misunderstandings.

I'm sorry you've had that experience I have pages and pages of your incredibly valid and valuable feedback in my to-do list for Neos to try and resolve when I can and read every item of feedback you had. I regularly implement stuff that's based directly on criticism from even our most vocal users. I'm just not able to continue this approach right now.

I appreciate the effort you've put in Prime, even if you are sometimes annoyingly disingenuous on occasion.

If I am this way, please let me know and I'll try to explain. Some of what you'll see is pr style language that's used in cases where items are outside of my control.

Prime just wants more control himself, trying to push out Karel for his own gain. Don’t buy his PR bs

This chat is very entertaining

If anything I want less control. My goal in a lot(not all) of what I do is to do it or automate it until I don't need to do it.

An example here being the policies I put in place for modding and security. Those policies might not be perfect but they do reduce the confusion and save a few tickets a week.

I'd much rather just eat cheese. But until then I'll do whatever I can

Apparently cannot send a message to Frooxius in Discord. Tried friending him.

That's not the best path unfortunately. They don't usually accept messages directly. Depending on your inquiry type there are better vectors

Cool - I was just trying to follow some advice given here in an earlier thread. If anyone has an idea of how best to contact Frooxius, please let me know. I want to talk about the possibility of leveraging Neos for virtual convenience stores that allow general commerce, POS, payment, loyalty and marketing. My company currently has most national US c-store chains, product manufacturers/brands and major oils as customers for our c-store products. Some of our customers are interested in marketing into virtual spaces and games. Thanks.

That's best for hello@neos.com which goes to Karel

I sent an email to that address and never received an answer. It has been weeks. So, maybe they are no longer answering their mail.

They usually don't reply but that's the only place business inquiries work atm

ok

Karel dropped off the face of the planet a few weeks back.

does anybody know the future of NCR Credits? I lost $3,000.....

I think it's because most of us were reading the unfortunate fanfiction that is often this chat

Depending when you bought in, you might be able to benefit or at least reduce any further loses with the buybacks. As to when they occur, no one knows.

I'd love to, but I'm afraid my account will get banned, so I don't talk about some issues

No update still ?

2 days since last statement 4 month old

None

no news is good news

Not when everything has ground to a halt, lol.

None

Hey guys, any discord mods/admins here? I just woke up and saw a notification that I got yeeted from NeosVR's discord even tho I don't even remember talking there, so it made me curious and I want to ask the reason

They seems to have a huge flood of spam bots so they they probably try to clean and there was maybe a lot of false positive. Try joining again maybe and ask?

Discord says that I am banned there

Hum okay strange, well i think open a moderation ticket will be the best way to go about it and start a talk with the moderation team

Where do I open the ticket if I can't join the server? Or is it somewhere outside discord?

It should be outside, let me found you the link

Ok was easy, here is the website for it: moderation.neos.com

Oh, thank you for your help

While for the business email you can say that i actually dont know the response time of the moderation tickets

Mod ticket relative fast low volume

Only matter of time till ncr establish new dominion

Who's going to want to use a currency that has no purpose or platform?

Will evolve beyond just neos

How/why?

Anyone know why I would not be able to join the neos discord?

Why would that happen?

I think they may have banned everyone that joined in the last few days from the sound of it.

@ProbablePrime Can you confirm?

That's annoying because I got a lot of good information there for solving problems in the world I am trying to build.

But I did join just a day or two ago.

Also became a patreon

How long have you been in the Neos discord prior to being banned?

I see. Should I kill the patreon then?

I was only on discord a day or two.

uhh.. for months, don't know when I joined exactly

New user AND silent user purge? Hmm

I wonder why someone would do that. It seems that the user community is one of the most valuable things that Neos has right now.

It might have been a mistake, can you send in a moderation ticket using the link above so the Moderators can review what occurred? Provide your Discord user name / ID to help them locate your account

Sorry - I'm a nube here - how do I find the link above?

https://moderation.neos.com

Thank you!

Huh, that's weird. I thought Raith made something bespoke for the ticket system, but it's been replaced with OSTicket?

The link Enverex just shared. Also, are you still able to access Neos itself?

That's news to me

I will check and see if I can access neos. I just submitted the ticket for discord.

Dana Did you sign up for Neos back in May last year? In which case, you're not banned from Neos itself.

No, I signed up just a week or two ago.

Odd, what's your Neos name?

Not sure

Is it the same as my login?

I am having no problem accessing my worlds. Thank goodness! I spent so many hours on them.

Yes, it's normally the same as your login

There was influx of spam bots yah

I see.

That all makes sense.

Looks like that's been the system for quite some time, but funny I thought the same thing. I pulled up a ticket I submitted in March and it was showing OSTicket then

I'd not looked since probably the start of the year, at the latest to be honest.

I found one from November and it's also pulling up my ticket - so maybe the footer wasn't there before? The style does look a bit different to me come to think of it

It looks completely different than I remember. Maybe they imported all the old tickets and set up redirects to handle the old ones?

https://web.archive.org/web/20220331113658/https://moderation.neos.com/

Visually it changed after the Wayback machine captured it on March 31st, so it's the same system - just never had the OSTicket logo at the bottom

That page appears to be a landing page, pre-ticket system. How can you tell from there?

Looking at the source, there are osticket/ost references so that was the system in place, but the design and a lot of the elements are different. Also got confirmation on Discord that it's still the same system

Interesting, and here was me thinking he made something entirely bespoke.

Same, I recall being told that it was custom at some point, but maybe that was just old news :)

Looks like some nice person unbaned me after I submitted a ticket. So thank you here for helping me understand that I should submit a ticket.

Yay!

For something like that, I think it's safe to say the moderation team was aware that tickets would be rolling in regarding appeals, so anyone else who accidentally got hit can most likely get it fixed in a short time.

I was reading Karel's statement. It kills me because I have been through that situation many times as a startup. In the early part of may carreer, I was the techincal founder who always ended up feeling abused by the process of transitioning to an actual company. I hated giving up certain types of control. BUT - later on, after going through the process a couple of times, it was clear that the technical founder is usually not qualified to organize a company made up of multiple people. I remember when I had to work with my first Product Manager. I was so angry that tthey prioritized the work differently than I wanted! Didn't they understand how important it was to (insert random technical detail here that nobody but me really cares about)?

Oh, I also got unbanned, nice

Thank you again :)

That's normal in start-ups, marriages and rock bands.

I don't believe the competing priorities had much to do with the current situation, but didn't help in the way they were presented/decided. Most of the priorities set by Karel and Andrea were already deemed priorities by the Team / Patreon; just in a different priority order from the existing roadmap. I think the concerns were that this set of priorities did not have any input from the Team or by Froox by the time they were presented to the Team/Board, which caused additional tension.

(To be clear, the Board I'm referring to is/was the Board of Advisors, the Patreon board level - Neos does not have a Board of Directors)

TL;DR - There were a multitude of issues that piled up, there was no one single issue that lead to the current situation.

I think we can all agree on that. But we struggle to agree on the incredibly irresponsible way they reacted to that pressure.

but hey when someone's under pressure that's when you see who they really are imo

Though the Patreon did/does refer to it as the board of directors doesn't it?

Is there anything else that can mean?

I was confused by this too when I joined, but when I reached out to Karel and asked what legal responsibilities I have he explained that it was not a legal board.

What we were given was the privilege to join a monthly meeting for our contribution which did entitle us to have discussions and input as well as receiving information sometimes before things were shared publicly. It did not give us any access to team meetings or any special group or discord access.

I still am owed a meeting for my donation in February, however I decided to drop off after that since no further meetings would be happening and I was worried about where my money was going.

And half of the donation was for NCR which also doesn't make it worthwhile

But, when Neos gets sorted out, I would consider rejoining. I still strongly believe in the project and hope for its future.

We'll likely overhaul the perks either way for clarity

I've been campaigning so much to fix that perks name internally

Board of Advisors was a good name, or Suspiciously Wealthy Furries. I'm okay with either

Neither :P

If I recall, I got to pick my own title TYVM (which I never took advantage of but should have)

Board is too much of a loaded tern which leads to issues

Bored of Advisors

Community Advisory Board is the standard usage term

None

None

🍿🤭

Here we go again 🥲

https://discord.com/channels/402159838827905024/941727532779200593/996158429636857916

Picture?

I was talking about the "remove NCR" story but yeah 😴

I'am not allowed to send media in the tg.

None

None

Mow?

that guy know nothing

about NcR

at least they should look at SANDBOX.BAYC MANA and learn how a metaverse project runs

shit

i got kicked out from discord

they are so rude

sorry i quit

fuck NCR and NEOS... sold my bag. Lost $3k. Im fucking outta this fucking place.

are you f...ing kidding me? im glad i got my $157. Focker... out.

i am down 20k

for the announcement from the cto...sad

this project isn't going anywhere... I sold it.

NCR will big

None

Maybe it was a desperate attempt to reassure investors before the shitstorm

The same does the Discord polls back then only in the ncr channel and with not much explaining.
That was the first big trustbreak that I noticed and where a lot of people were very worried.

people are still fairly distraught. I've spoken to quite a few people who still feel the same concerns akin to the polling incident. They look around, see fewer and fewer people coming on, and just feel discouraged because of the current issues unfolding.

I mean, if we're arguing from peak then I'm down ~$700,000

Any support in here for Neos VR?

@sparkysergal What's up?

Well, it keeps not responding and responding again and taking a while to load on my computer for some reason

What CPU, GPU do you have, and how much RAM do you have?

also worth asking, but which version are you using? There's the one from Steam, which will install in a SteamLibrary folder. The one from the website installs by default in your main drive.

I remember feeling like we were being used to justify an internally unpopular decision. The polls felt constructed, especially when the first vote rejected the token burn only for it to pivot to ending the ico anyway but now with staking :P

not to mention, the whole "this will not be the final decision, it's just to understand people's opinion" aspect... which, in turn, ended up not being the case

it just turned the discord into a flame war as pump and dumpers flooded in and skewed the polls. The people actually using Neos weren't aware, because it wasn't even an announced poll until someone announced it via the bot to get user's attention

honestly, I think the polls were less of the issue, and the fact that such a critical opinion survey was being done without informing actual users properly. It just resulted in an immediate distrust, since some people who were in Neos did hold some value to NCR and even had meets to talk about exchanging and the like (which oddly occurred not too long before the polls). Effectively, failing to disclose something that could alter their finances, be it being taken seriously or otherwise, is a good way to disway public opinion

Let me tell you why you're full of shit

the price dropped immediately after Froox made his announcement. You can easily see this if you zoom in. Infact, the price increased after CEO made his announcement.

It was when Froox announced that they wanted to make NCR "third party" and detailed this really ill conceived afterthought of a way they could scam the users they had been selling it to that the price dropped some 50% in a single day (NCR's biggest percentage price drop ever)

quite honestly, the price dropped because it was unsustainable. It could be argued that NCR could have ran to god-knows past its $10~ top had it been given anything other than an attitude of indifference from the developers, but it was never going to go from like $.20 to $10 and just stay around there without big retraces in price

No one either on the dev team or in that discord has had any exposure to a market in their lives (like they pretend to) and imo the normal movements in an illiquid shitcoin market NCR was being traded on likely caused internal fussing that they emotionally couldn't handle.

and also it was the hinting of a burn announcement that caused a raise in price. It was after Karel backtracked on the burn that there was a dump, as one would expect. That's fine and all but it was so goddamn sloppy. If there's anything you can lay at Karel's feet it's probably the way those things were handled, which likely hurt alot of people and was a mistreatment of his customers

however that's nothing in comparison to the abuse the "devs" performed on their own customers, and the mistreatment and labeling they still encourage in their community to this day.

it seems to me Karel might have been in communication with some exchanges and wanted to get their token onto them. Many of the bigger ones, as far as I know, won't let you list your token when an ICO is active.

Unfortunately this is one of many bold lies being told in the discord, but since you could literally say anything anti-Karel and it will be believed without doubt you all believe this.

It's also so easy to check and see it's bullshit, which makes it all the more hilarious that you come in here peddling it.

🍿🤭

Facts

very obviously, though they tried to be abit sly about it by utilizing their community to go to war for them.

The attitude was to always chime in that they were indifferent to it, but pretend to be "neutral"

at the same time when people would suggest really ill conceived shower-thoughts about how to remove NCR, they'd eagerly chime on with "Hmmmm this is interesting!! Good suggestions community!"

I also think there's an emotional element, since all of them sold they have no incentive to care. Infact it feels kind of good when something you've sold basically dies.

and the other element being the devs seem to desperately need their attention and to be treated like little lords. Neos basically exists for that end. And for them to defend something unpopular threatens that and emotionally I dont think any of them have the spine to weather that from their furry suckups.

Anyone who isn't a suckup to them simply isnt a real member of Neos in their eyes.

CDFT. The community development fund token. Basically, every nth batch of NCR that gets minted, you get a percentage of your CDFT turned into NCR with eventually all of the CDFT turned into NCR at the end of the ICO. At the end of the day, it's NCR, but supposed to be on a drip feed to encourage more community development. I have not seen anything from my CDFT for a very long time because frankly no one mints anymore XD (and for good reason, mind you)

Cdft is just NCR with a batch dependent vesting schedule.

Oh and this still isn't about money.

What would be important to see is how much dev NCR was sold before they announced their desire to make it third party.

well sure, but in whatever court case going forward I'd assume it's noteworthy

good point

at any rate it would show there was a time when they cut all ties to their funders, then took action to announce they wanted to drop the token

Another point is, even if they sell their ncr, which they had all right too when they are partially being paid in it, it would not have caused a significant pricedrop.

Then they shouldn't have been paid in ncr in the first place anyway. But as been told many times, its not about the pay. People just make a fus about the misleading false claims

its never really been considered "pay" by anyone

I think its more like an incentive so that the interests of the funders and the devs align

None

It was very clearly worded as not pay in a few places. We were encouraged not to view it as such

What's a better word for CDFT/NCR given it if not pay/compensation. Reward? Bonus? Gift?

Token

Token, but given as what though? I think Token may still imply compensation for work. Since that's not how it was given, just trying to find a better phrase for folks who keep propagating that it was given as compensation

The white paper says reward. I think it's written as such to avoid issues. Same as the legal disclaimer.

I mean, I can't go down to my local Subway and whip out my phone to hand over NCR or anything that isn't a Mastercard or Visa electronically. If I was paid with a token, I'd feel rather ungratified.

Depends on what gratifies you, if you want money/compensation you could try a different place

But if you loved Subway and felt strongly for it's mission and received hugs and NCR rewards, you might be content with that

Sounds more like commission.

Commission requires a commission. This was. You make cool stuff here is token

It's not. I got CDFT that minted to NCR for building something cool. It was a reward and I was happy to receive or or not. It was not under any obligations

was about to say

Holy shit you can't be this ignorant

It's wording was very clearly crafted to avoid that because it wasn't a promise for pay or an employment contract. Other community members received it. Oh and froox never got cdft

sum of money paid to an employee upon completion of a task, usually selling a certain amount of goods or services. Employers sometimes use sales commissions as incentives to increase worker productivity. A commission may be paid in addition to a salary or instead of a salary.

🍿 🫢

Neos

I wasn't talking about your OC art commissions, I was talking about commission pay

Neos Bot?

I hope so, I don't know who

I would actually have to agree with this. Receiving what is advertised as a "currency" for work completed would be compensation. Doesn't matter if it's not USD or Euros.

I'm not an employee, this wasn't pay and it was not a reward for tasks.

2/3 of the Cdft I got was before I was on the team

As a volunteer for other non-profit orgs, I am not allowed to accept any "gifts" or "tokens" because that is compensation under US law.

🥤🫢🍿

Never said it was, wish it could be

I've received plenty of swag, shirts, meals, hotel rooms and even fuel subsidies for volunteering

I don't hope many things. Those I do I keep to myself. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I wanna work for your orgs ;)

MS Society

What about dish washing ;)

Thanks I appreciate it!

But even still, the dev team receiving a "virtual currency" is pretty different from a free meal.

Cool. Thanks for helping people out

kinda my point, NCR is advertised as a currency, quite different from a free t-shirt

I want neos back as much as anyone who actually plays it, but if anyone on the team claims receiving is NCR isn't compensation imma call BS on that.

lol

Excellent

I wish you god-speed friend. Personally I wouldn't build my house on someone else's land, especially with how hostile VRC is to its users.

Vrc has a long way to go there but it's somewhat not their goal

They are good often misunderstood people

can confirm that...

That sounds awesome, I hope you succeed. It would be great to have more options out there

definitely had multiple discussions with people boasting VRC, and then they show me their mod list just to be able to do basic things. kind of a joke if you ask me

Has VRChat established a mod policy or is it still against their ToS?

It is against their tos

People have lost access to VRChat for adding accessibility features, so it's very much a Zero-Tolerance policy.

This is due to neos using peer to peer networking as opposed to a master server. Upside: sessions don't go down if neos servers go down. Downside: host machine has to do a lot of work, exponentially more work for each user added

That and can't forget the ability to run on a LAN. Makes for a neat situation where a headless can be run to offload hosting purposes on your own network with a spare PC.

Session Host Migration and an option to have neos host the session would be awesome to have.

Ability to run on LAN is nice for having less setup to join your own headless on your network since you join via lan while everyone else joins normally and it is fairly transparent to the user that it goes more directly

It already exists and has existed for a long time as part of the headless server software. So it wouldn't be taking priority over anything?

Agreeable, lots of big features that get referred as a requirement for another feature should probably be alot higher in the list than they have been

'sorry, x thing requires collections' repeated several dozen times

Also wish they would accept some of the 'technical debt' of minor temporary fixes that improve the experience now instead of pushing minor UI fixes to the larger future UI reworks

We occasionally do, I aligned the Float 3 and FloatQ fields for example. I actually have a bunch of smaller changes that are technically merged but we haven't shipped that update.

I understand not wanting small fixes but some cases would be very welcome

Atleast neos supports plugins and modding so the community can improve things in the meantime

The settings UI getting a complete overhaul was actually what we wanted to do in Jan but that's when this whole stuff started. Settings being more flexible and sorta-never endless would have allowed for a ton of random tweaks to just be random checkboxes within that tab

Yeah that's why we're not just adding them. An overhaul will make it much more logical and segmented to make a lot more sense

We hadn't started we wanted to but that's when everything happened

No not at all, it just lined up with when this stuff started

The roadmap doesn't have an order currently. Settings was not pushed to the bottom nor was it moved anywhere else.

Naw you got the right place. A card was never entered for the settings UI because we didn't get a chance to even start.

It's more than that, because performance simply as a client is atrocious after more than half a dozen users, There's a lot that still needed to be addressed both client and server side.

No it was we were breaking down the whole UI overhaul into smaller segments in a meeting. Settings was decided to be the next segment and then everything happened

I mean you can ask any of the team including Karel we discussed it.

It just wasn't updated on the roadmap because of what happened

If things had not happened a card would be created and moved around as appropriate.

is a team member assigned to be the card updater or is it kind of just a joint assignment?

Myself or froox did it. I would frequently do it after each meeting toake sure stuff made sense. I had planned massive overhauls to how we structure that stuff

I think if you look in the update notifications on GitHub for many boards you'll see me routinely tidying up. I was also collating boards together.

so stuff happened right at the very start of the UI update, which got as far as the settings being sorted or something

we broke it up into smaller chunks, saying "Do the whole UI" was causing circular conversations.

Settings allows us to provide a lot more... settings to you which can solve many pain points. Its also an opportunity to create and refine better standard UI elements as settings is basically an exercise in "Which form control do I need today"

We sometimes did or do. We just didn't that time because we decided to do settings and then everything happened.

Here's the card for it: https://github.com/Neos-Metaverse/NeosPublic/projects/2#card-61033408

I know a ticket I put in was in regards to some of the settings UI stuff, with the reuslt being that it was planned but that the settings page itself was very complicated. I'm assuming it's less about rearranging and more along the lines of making a reusable system so adding more settings is more straight forward.

Yeah, load the settings screen for many popular games and you'll see it gets complicated fast. We couldn't keep adding more checkboxes to the same page.

Categories, Tabs, Pages, Sub menus etc were needed

I've explored the labyrinths in a Croteam title.

A text file for all those settings might be a start

None

Hi guys,
new to the group and Neos. Would like to ask a quite simple question:
What's the easiest way to access Neos Metaverse with my Oculus Go?

Thanks a lot for the help!

We don't support the oculus go right now.

Mhh... oh really, that is really a pitty. Is there a list of VR devices which is supported? Cannot find anything like that on neos.com

We support most common desktop headsets, quest support(untethered) is a work in progress. but you can play on a quest if it is tethered to your computer using oculus link etc.

Can you please give me examples of "entry-level" Desktop Headsets which are supported

Thx

for entry level desktop probably HP Reverb G2 would be the closest thing I can recommend. I am not familiar with it though.

None

the Oculus Go can't tether, I take it?

I think you can use Virtual Desktop on the go, but it doesn't support native tethering or airlink.

I have a Quest 2 and it's about the definition of "cheap entry level" options, though I wonder if you'd be better served by spending abit more or saving much more for something more advanced

the HP Reverb G2 as previously mentioned goes on sale often enough if you check Slickdeals. This isn't a vouch for it, just saying.

I'd feel tempted to wait with what seems like many new headsets on the horizon

The quest 2 is good, it's just.... Facebook I guess. Bleh. I heard the screen in the g2 was great but the controllers were lacking?

I'm under the impression a truly good setup is a hodgepodge of parts.

They did just put out a separation of the Facebook requirement. Granted, it's still a Meta account, which is an upgraded Oculus account, and is tied to the company but...

you'd be surprised. Quite a strong amount of people detest the company, and while the Quest 1 sold well, Quest 2's requirement was a very vocal disruption with the account requirements

Sure it doesn't.

but whatever. Bottom line, a rather large number of users avoided the headset due to the facebook requirement.

ahuh

but back on topic. The G2 doesn't seem too bad, but yeah, the controllers lack capacitive touch. Some titles do make use of it, mostly in social VR, so Neos would be partly affected by that

otherwise, the headset itself is respectable if you can get a good price

The main issues with the Quest 2 as a PCVR headset are the atrocious audio quality (it literally fires the audio away from you so it's even louder for everyone else), it's very front heavy, you'll be limited by battery life (even tethered) and there's significant visual degradation due to the video encoding used to send the picture to the headset. It's not the worst thing in the world but it's definitely got a lot of limitations.

I've had two friends return the G2 due to it having terrible tracking, so that's something to be aware of.

Their next gen headset isn't designed for the same market, it'll be priced around Index levels AFAIK, but that also means it should be very solid. That said, god knows what dodgy things they'll end up doing to make you regret it..

they did mention an offering of a dedicated device to handle the wireless stuff, but that doesn't address the battery issues... which was by design, since the reduced weight of the headset was by slashing the battery capacity.

they sell that too... well, most everyone does anyway in the third party accessories, but their first party is an updated design that redistributes the weight of the headset better.

Otherwise... besides this one other headset... the Quest is the most affordable and the lightest that can be acquired by a general consumer

Doesn't work. The charging mechanism overheats when the headset is being used and you'll notice it slowly losing charge even when plugged into a sufficient supply.

Who doesn't recommend using VR more than 2 hours at a time anyway? That's pretty short for most people's time.

must be a Quest 2 thing. My Quest 1 can last near indefinitely be it by battery or charge by outlet. Both a friend and family member who have a Quest 2 with batteries don't report any issues with bundled packs, and I have gone 6 hours with them, and no indication of drained batteries

It also just depends on what you are doing in general. If you are doing something like BeatSaber for 2 hours straight, then yeah, a break might be in order if you are doing it rather intensively. But if you are lounging around in social VR, then that is a bit different

Odd. I had this issue with both the Quest 1 and 2 and I've seen a lot of other confirmations that it's a thing...

I mean, I get the argument: in other cases, the screen is just an object in 3D space, which you can look away from and you do move around, so it isn't consistently always feeding to a user. A headset is different in that the screen's position and distance is consistent... but the honest solution to that?
Remember to blink.

but, even then, people have been eyeball hugging mobile phones for about as long and... while yes it's a separate device with variable distances and all that... still not seeing much from there

I use a 25 watt PD charger with my quest 2 in a basically always on configuration. It seems to work fine in pretty extended sessions.

Though you'd need a battery bank that supported high wattage PD charging, and those tend to be rather expensive.

Huh... I guess that's an option I have turned off. I know some titles do have that though

I got an Anker battery as suggested by many reviews during the early days. It also adds a nice counter balance for the bulkier Quest 1

I get eye strain from vr, feels like hot sauce in the eye. Maybe better rendering techniques might be able to trick your eyes into different focusing and stuff but yeah. Idk about the biology of that. Genuinely good AR might help fix that.

I know the military does use HUDs safely so

Vr also has weird psychological problems, though. It can cause people to dissociate and derealize and have enhanced dreams and we don't have the data to know why

All that said, it is uncomfortable to have a headset connected to the Facebook company given how they use data and who has access to it en masse. Google is the same.

I want something that's guaranteed to be independent from entities like that.

But it's hard in today's world

Their entire model of super cheap headsets might not last though. A financial analyst I know was talking about how they've hinged everything on vr taking off like ready player one, and controlling the main metaverse applications. Internally, it's being kept alive by the insane amount of money that Facebook has generated.

Them making extremely boring, limited, puritan created vr worlds with no legs is also a shot in the (invisible) foot

The discomfort situation also is happening with many home appliances, particularly with the 'smart' devices. My DNS sink-hole is going bonkers dealing with some systems I have, and a particular company is beyond annoying in where their devices don't work without speaking to their primary servers. Considering the sensor array in some devices, it's a bit concerning at times, as well as annoying.

To some length, the Quest fell a bit into the same situation, since it was put that after a specific date, their devices would only allow X type of sign-in. I haven't tried it yet, but I don't think there is a rock solid way to use a Quest without some kind of sign-in. I know you can tweak it afterwards to remove some services, but that's all 'after' the sign-in. Even my Pixel phone works without needing to be signed in at all.

I would second the G2 Reverb that @ProbablePrime mentioned.

Obviously, it's not the most advanced headset on the market, but if you just want to dip your toes into VR without breaking the bank, that is a great mid-range option.
It's only 90hz refresh rate but it has a 4K display and you can get it for about 400 USD nowadays I believe, which is less than half price of higher end headsets like Valve Index.
Plus I really love the portability: It's light, feels comfortable, there are no base stations, so I've even carried it around airports with no problems. Just maybe with some odd looks from people haha!😁

Unfamiliarity with new stimulus, it goes away with experience in VR.

Also about the Quest 2, atleast for me eye strain is sort of an issue. The setting for eye distance only has 3 settings, and although you can supposedly try to cheat it inbetween I havent been able to get it to stick

Then again I'm sure I've gotten permanent eye damage just from phone use and I think VR eye damage is something that we might see more of in the future being reported. It took me like an hour to get my quest on in a way that wasnt straining my eyes and that involves me tightening the damn thing to my skull. Long sessions aren't possible for me until I upgrade (waiting to see how Deckard looks)

That shouldn't really happen with VR as it's not the distance to your eyes that maters, it's focal distance, which is around 6 meters on the Index for example.

you mean centimeters? I dont know anything about it

No, meters

So as far as your eyes are concerned, they are focussing on something 6 meters away

Ah sorry, it's 6 feet, so nearly 2 meters.

I always get a bit of double vision when being in VR for a long time. I've always thought it was an offset in IPD that I haven't been able to properly adjust for but who knows

Almost certainly an IPD issue

I think what the Index reports is not the optical IPD, there's a lot of play in the slider I've noticed

I'm pretty sure it is. They included a guide in the box to measure your IPD... but I just got my number from my optometrist when I was last there, which was close to the number I got from guide

of course, there's also the issue that can arise when using glasses with a headset... since if two aren't aligned, then I can easily see that causing more issues than a simple misalignment and no glasses

Can recommemd vroptican for that in eu if needed.
Got a pair of protection lenses, but their main offer is for Users that needs glasses or correction lenses.

I've used WIDMOvr and VR Lens Lab for US orders, but I think WIDMOvr had me cover an import fee for some reason. I don't recall this being the case with the latter.

I strongly suggest lenses in either case, since the FOV you get when you don't have to worry about your own glasses scratching the lenses, and the 'goggles within goggles' view going away, is pretty critical

Used vroptician here, ships from germany I think? great lenses, had them for over a year

fury land

None

wtf its not foxy funday, its furry friday

jsjsjsj

hmm... reminds me I need to upload something later. Weird schedule today

None

Hello! If I sent ETH to the wallet address on website following the minting protocol in the white paper using metamask, why do I not see any NCR in return? I did this a few weeks back

Because management is missing and the team is in turmoil. I recommend doing due diligence in future as there's a good chance that you'll never see that money again, if you do, it'll be a while. It's also exponentially worse monetarily to mint than it is to just buy NCR at this point. Mint cost is $14.72, where as actual buy price right now is about $0.28.

Heard.

It's a shame but that's the state of things at the moment (and has been for around 9 months now) :(

NCR's that cheap? I'd buy some just to gift storage space to friends at this point.

you mint not processed in weeks???

Where is it $0.28? That’s pretty cheap

Looks like Karel given up on buybacks

It reached point 0.30, so continuing what he announced on twitter.

Yeah apparently I’m an idiot but from what I read it seemed like a long term play..

mint supposed to be sent max 2 day

Could I just not be seeing it in my metamask?

None

any news?

Nope

same situation since march?

Since November last year, yes.

Because you tried to show them how they can make it, rather than you making it for them :P

I think part of the issue is you have people who ask how to make something... yet can't make anything anywhere else, and thus get stuck seeing the complexity of it all... when in all honesty, they weren't ready for the whole ordeal

learning to do stuff like that requires baby steps. Sure, it'd be cool to show someone hwo to RGB a cube or something, but it might be best to be like "Hey, you know that model you used in Unity to upload into VRC? Just drag it into here!"

or just base it off the inventory might be easier and more consistant

How anyone can put up with matlab's bullshit and not jump at literally any other language is a mystery to me :P

A new user asked me how to make a gun and hadn't even seen logix or the inspector before, so I suggested he start somewhere simpler but he insisted on learning how to make a gun. I was impressed that he lasted about 15 minutes and asked some good questions and was actually understanding how it worked, but after that I never saw him on Neos again.

Logix wouldn't be so bad if it were easier to manage. It's so messy in 3D space and just... it feels so unwieldly and DIY. For example here's making something in Udon, which in reality functions pretty much exactly like LogiX does, but it's SO MUCH CLEANER, and easier to move around, see what I'm doing, etc. It feels like Logix visually looks like a pre-alpha of this. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/995795000078127124/unknown.png

Eventually, all visual languages end up like normal languages: you can understand sections, but the overall ability to follow the whole becomes unfathomable.

that's... not what I meant... but okay

None

Hi Everyone! I am new to Neos. I joined the world several times before but not sure where everyone were and what I should do. any recommendations?

Good evening!
Ultimately, it depends on what you want to do. If you are interested in building things, there are a handful of tutorials cover this. There is the Wiki as well.
Right now, it's rather late at night for quite a few users, but during active hours, you can find people in sandbox worlds who can give further insight on any questions you have.

Anyway, despite my previous statement, I will be in-world working on something for a friend of mine. Cheers!

just joined!

Thanks! I ll try tmr afternoon

Always negative fear, no drive no vision, worthless

I think Neos Festa have given up on the English part of Neos. There's absolutely nothing in English about this year's Festa, everything is only in Japanese.

team silence still

users say this is no rug but many projects before these rug in these way

is team hire new dev and exchange listing or take money and laughing on beach

I mean, the head dev is now getting over £2500 a month and not working on the project, so I guess they're laughing all the way to the bank at this point. No idea what's going on with Karel, he's been missing for weeks. Maybe he bought a yacht and fucked off to the Caribbean.

He's making quite a bit more than me working 40+ hours a week.

Do we?

I was explicitly told off by the team for trying to talk to Froox. He's too busy, no-one's allowed to talk to him. Also I don't think casually playing the game in his free time is something you pay money for...

Firstly, I didn't have any 8k textures, that was some bullshit one of the mods who liked to continually shit-talk me to other people kept telling everyone. Secondly, I've never "crashed anyone out" and third, that's not even an occasion I'm referring to.

But please, continue with that sort of conversation, while we have people with literally fucking aids as avatars on the mentor team.

What must have happened that there are these strong feelings about what's happening?

Fuck ash. You used to be someone with values dude. You used to be someone other people could actually listen to, and take in the opinion of. Now you're a kink shaming dick weed that complains about a company sabatoging itself while you actively try to turn new users away from the platform.

Wtf is the point of you skulking around here if you hate everything about it so much??? You used to care about damaging people, but now you've become one. You're so fucking toxic dude. Wtf happened to you???

Who are you addressing?

It's the vibes from a very few of this group and I'm afraid that I sense these from you, too

I'm angry with the platform, the people running it and the core users who pretend everyone involved in this mess are either completely innocent or can do no wrong. Then of course Firr bringing up things that remind me how actual staff members make things up and then repeat that to other users to stir hatred for people they don't like.

I am not that indifferent about the situation either. I don't like what's happening and what's made public is only a fraction of the truth. However with careful observation one might see the actual culprit. That would however be something no one wants to read

Why do you even respond then?

Apples to oranges

Very much. One thing is your personal thing, the other is about the whole platform

Yes, as well

Yes indeed, please stop, okay?

Thanks

And once you get it, you realize how much energy you wasted here

Who is the real culprit? Do you mean Karel, Frooxius or Team Neos... maybe Geenz?

That's interesting, what do you have against Geenz? Why mention them explicitly?

I don't know. I need you to explain. I've seen Geenz and Karel argue a lot at TW.
I really don't understand much because English is not my mother tongue

🤭🍿

🤫

Ahh, I see

Don't worry, I got my answer

None

Is this the chat for NeosVR?

Discord.com/invite/neosvr I believe is the link to the discord

oh okay. I was just looking around because I wanted to try something new

Is there difference between website and Steam?

okay. I don't have that, so does not matter what I install then?

If you're not interested in the crypto tokens, then it doesn't really matter.

Steam should be just fine if you just want to explore neos

You can always switch between the two anyway, so just go with Steam.

Yep, accounts are platform independent

oh okay. Thank yous

Np

Enjoy yourself!

I found English neos festa content on it's official Twitter, if anyone needs it.

All their Discord stuff, all the details, submission information, finer points, etc which was bilingual last year appears to only be listed in Japanese now. I think they may have updated some since. But yeah, I'm guessing they aren't seeing much point now?

I dunno, I just don't attribute motivations to them without asking them.

what is neos festa?

oh okay. Thank you. Looks neat

Well at least the buyback wallet is getting richer by the day as eth keeps going up

Surprised ncr is not rallying tbh given that eth is up so much. I guess people people are a little scared now that the buybacks stopped

buybacks?

I thought Neos was free?

They're talking about NCR the Neos currency. Which can be bought and sold.

Neos the product is free.

okay. So buyback is like selling currency to bank?

Do you think about nothing in English for NF4? You can check English part from entry world and twitter promotion, and can support from neos festa discord. I know homepage doesn't support English, but I sadly to think only this thing.

wow, it's an entire month? That's pretty neat

There's more English in the Discord now, not sure if I missed it before or if it's been updated.

It's enough if you don't have the feelings you had before now. Thank you for confirmation. Enjoy Neos Festa.

I know this is late and Im too tired to read everyones posts just yet but ffs contact karel, he's in the past refunded some mints I think? because you paying 14 per ncr just makes me want to push objects into my eyes like it makes me want to jump out the closest window