Either way, Yes NCR was sold in an ICO and yes Neos devs later sought to purposefully damage it over a prolonged period before they left

and yes NCR funded the development of the code Resonite uses

well if you insist

They said it themselves, even right after the development freeze

IF ANYONE HOLDS NCR OR HELD NCR IN THE PAST OR LOST MONEY ON IT DM ME ❤️

so after they made their decision to seperate, they knew well not to send invoices. Sounds like a very MOTIVATED thing to do

That is surprisingly irrelevant for the case

I'd say smart move to never ever being involved with NCR

You know Ethereum had been offered? It was never accepted by them

thomas everything youve said is irrelevent.

Yes, the relevant things are what they said and did

Thomas. I regret to inform you NCR was being sold since 2018. They were involved.

Look. Please. Id love to see it. TRY to maneuver some argument to say they weren't

NCR was a factor. NCR funds ended up in pockets. It kept Neos servers on, it funded MMC rewards, it possibly helped out food on Froox's plate.

Along with patreon and investors of course

That's what you say

Its in the records. And Froox himself said "If not for NCR Neos would be dead"

What they say is, no money out of ICO had been used yet

Well, it looks to me like it is being used recently

and lets just pretend Devs never had NCR or CDFT and never sold it

Ohh, they could have had CDFT and turned into NCR and having even sold it. Doesn't mean that ICO money had been used

NCR is the product the ICO sold

So? There is also NCR that has been minted without feeding the ICO, that's in the white paper

I think youve moved to trying to say it doesnt count unless the coins came from the ICO

It doesn't matter where these coins came from

So did devs never sell any NCR?

What if they did? It wouldn't change anything.

It wouldn't change anything in the eyes of a judge?

It would at best actually be the devs having minted NCR by paying into ICO. So the opposite of what you're trying to prove.

As I understand it devs were given amounts of CDFT

I doubt a single dev minted. They didn't need to

I'd wait to see whoever handled the ICO to disclose, what happened with the Ethereum. Let's see where it actually went

Most of it went probably into buy backs. The other amount of it went to pay gas fees. If anything went elsewhere it is logged on the blockchain

I'd like to see transactions, where any of these Ethereum was actually being exchanged for fiat

Doesn't matter because it was sold in multiple ways, through patreon, incentive for content/ building up the ecosystem.. it was even sold by mods through paypal

the ICO was one of many ways

and thats perfectly fine.

The issue was the actions to purposefully damage it then take the code that it helped fund

Haha, that is so funny. What does it make a difference if someone sells tokens they personally own, even if they were an employee?

where they got those tokens matters

So, how they put money into the ICO?

of course it matters. Like goddamn lol

So. You say, they should sue?

Because they indirectly "invested" into the ICO, they should sue themselves

That is so hilarious

Im pretty sure devs got CDFT for free

Everyone who got CDFT, got it for free as a thank you for developing the community

I dont think any dev funded the ICO. I think youre just smoke-screening at this point

Ahh. So it actually doesn't matter what they did with NCR

Look since I like you so much Thomas

IF YOU HOLD NCR OR USED TO HOLD NCR OR HAVE LOST MONEY ON NCR, DM ME AND LETS TALK 😋👍

I DM you already

Ill keep you informed

Thanks

hope you dont mind if I keep posting this notice

This isn't my group and I think it's your right to seek legal advice

I just think it's fruitless, but it's my own opinion so far from the facts I know

youre one of those guys who believes in the occasional, tasteful safe-scam

We need to contact many of the NCR holders to discuss. At this point, the project is almost a scam. We've lost a lot of money believing in Frooxius, Karel, and the Neos development team...

holy back and forth, the past 100 messages is literally just repeating themselves 💀

I was thinking and I guess I see what you are trying to do. You want to make devs responsible for selling NCR at market value? If that's it, what about the pump and dump group(s) who did that and made a fortune? I doubt the devs even had enough NCR to cause a dent on the chart.

no thats not it

Contractor relationship really limits the liabilities of contractors to the employer for representation in the UK

It seems to even be less of a relationship, as Frooxius is the developer, Solirax is a publisher. That's what the steam page says

I see that as another indicator, that the rights to FrooxEngine have always been at Frooxius himself

Also, we could currently held Solirax responsible to not fulfilling the utility of NCR. Or did I miss any updates to the website to be able to buy storage again?

Certainly it seems the company does not appear to have fulfilled its obligations. The questions then become:

- Did the leadership mislead?
- Was it negligence?
- No fault?
- What can the company do now to make it right?

*Also LLC/S.R.O are meant to protect their members from liability in the first place

Realistically though, the company still exists, NCR still exists, they still own everything prior they did to begin with with exception to cash flow as some customers appear to have left.

thats how I see it. I've got no qualms about what Neos is doing in relation to its obligation to ncr if you want to call it that

Let's see what Karel will deliver in the near future

And even if it's this mining game for staking. That'd be a start of rebuilding trust

If he can

NeosVR seems to have been a failed experiment so far, even though I saw potential to have a world like ready player one in there

Well, another way to start trust is to have one of the developers being a representative for the development team behind the unreal client and publish weekly or monthly update blogs

Given the extent of what happened, I don't think 'trust' is a thing that's gonna happen from anybody on any side of this regardless of what you believe in

This is messy because some say there's no contract, your calling them contractors, thomas is saying ones just a publisher, despite the relationshop between the two being clearly more than that

it sounds like people just argue Froox is whatever makes him the least responsible for any harm but also the most deserving of all value and property, lol

Given that it's messy, we cannot realistically believe in any contract regardless. So if we assume that there were, in fact, no contracts, (invoices don't count) then there cannot realistically be any liability because they were never A) Contracted, and were never B) Employees. Given that NCR is not a security nor governance in any sense of the word, and is considered a speculative asset, we cannot assume damages either

Actually, if anyone deserves respect, then it is Frooxius for his achievements and making NeosVR even possible

I disagree, because most of what you say makes assumptions about how this should all be interpretted as convenient to only one side

Then we shouldn't make assumptions in the opposite direction either towards the motives of other team members

Thats assuming Solirax, customers, and more didn't contribute to that value

Everyone's argument in Froox's behalf hinges on symantics and technicalities that clearly don't align with reality

And, well, even to Karel for managing the finances and similar

The projections of motivations probably don't help when you try to describe your viewpoint either btw

I didn't really like writing that, but well, it is what it is

"The team purposefully..." "The team wanted" etc. etc.

The team took deliberate actions. I'm emphasizing that is all.

And there it is again, we cannot know if the actions that caused NCR to fall were deliberate

Or merely a result of the nasty circumstance

If the team wanted one thing, I believe, that'd be Karel to become a sensible person and make up for things he did

I don't know if intent matters as much as who benefitted and who lost

because that we know

Then we should not bring intent into this to bolster the argument

Everyone lost in the split

did they not act in a motivated fashion though?

maybe it was just negligent and social pressre

You say we cannot assume, so we also shouldn't assume the motivations of individuals who likely could not dictate their actions for the sake of the concluded legal situation

No? froox got years of growth on his platform funded from others, and jettisoned everyone he didnt like

There isn't a legal requirement for a written contract to be in place for a contractor in the UK, it's just highly recommended to hold parties to account etc.

However, I also see single individuals from the dev team demanding things, that were impossible to implement while still keeping NCR afloat

this is why I think a judge should see it then

Assuming that wouldn't put NCR further into the hole it's already in

Everyone's like "Liability!" but then fail to see the implications of what a real suit might do to their 'investments'

For NCR to be utility, it'd have to been implemented as a core element with exclusivity. Something that a certain loud dev member opposed

I dont care about its value, I care about the principle

I mean, I do care, for those people's sake

I think you're right about this, although in my case, I'm not particularly aiming to protect him. I just think that there is /a lot/ of issues from what I've been made aware of as far as the contractor relationship goes.

At least good to know, that Resonite got nothing out of the ICO, because they don't deserve even a single bit of it with what they did there

If you care about the people who care about the value, then it would probably be ill-advised to jeopardize their investment further

Froox and the dev team never saw a cent from the patreon or the selling of ncr

Patreon, I believe they got part of it. The ICO however, nothing

Oh shut up. Froox getting sued has NOTHING to do with NCR

Froox was a director and liable some things, being incorporated as a limited company in the UK doesn't remove liability, just limits it.

resonite has bothing to do with NCR. lmao

Telling someone to shut up doesn't do well to uphold your arguments.

You want people to listen to you? Don't be a dick to them

100% a way to harden anybody's opinion towards you

No, they didn't; that's one of the larger reasons Neos got into legal limbo in the first place

I think you are confusing things. I know that devs team members sent in invoices in the past and got paid from money, that was the funds from investors and Patreon

I don't care what anyone here thinks about me. Or the situation. I'd care what an unbiased and informed judge or lawyer thinks

You clearly care enough to go back and forth about 300 times

However the funds that accumulated from ICO were never used for anything like that

If you didn't care what anybody thought, then there's no point arguing

The problem I can foresee when it comes to suing the company directors for not meeting their obligations is that you have two sides of the same coin. Both sides viewed the other side not meeting their obligations; I don't know what a court would decide, but it's not obvious to me.

the point is to develope the idea were discussing

either way its pretty daft to say nailing resonite would damage NCR somehow

If you only care about what an unbiased judge thinks, then why do we go around in circles with you telling people to shut up so they don't listen to you, arguing and getting nothing done because people don't wanna listen

If you only care about unbiased opinions: This chat isn't for you. And on the flip side if you want your points to be understood, don't tell people to shut up when they contradict your arguments. Attacking the people behind the arguments means the argument probably ain't too good pal

froox's title was something like CTO, iirc

He's a director in the limited company filings, regardless of title, you can title yourself anything

I don't know where contractor came from, thats a new thing in the discussion I havent really been hearing until today

The contractor discussion is ancient

From what's been repeated from both Karel and the og dev team, the people that worked for the company were never employees, they were legally/treated as a contractors

that I remember

If anything that can make a big difference

Unlike employees in the UK, with contractors stuff like intellectual property, liabilities is/are not transferred as part of work performed, it needs to be explicitly agreed to in contracts. This is why contracts for contractors often include such clauses for liabilities to complete, transfer of IP etc.

as a contractor, all of the work's copyright stays with the original author of that work. Except when explicitly agreed upon in front that such a copyright transfer is being done, which hasn't been in any of the agreements to my knowledge

however, that partially makes Frooxius liable to have accepted code from those contractors

It wouldn't even make sense to see Frooxius as a contractor, as he was directly also an owner of Solirax

Froox isn't an employee nor a contractor. Directors IP also do not automatically pass to a company they're doing work for too

good to know

Although, I do believe that Karel did contract Froox to write some specific things previously

I don't think there was even an agreement, where the director's IP went, so it stays with Frooxius as well

So, I think for some specific things, there might be a contractor relationship involved.

I feel like alot of this would be of no concern if he chose to share the code with the original project, not make efforts to maim it

I think what you mean are the contracts between Frooxius and education

He's not required to share his IP

Frooxius has worked for education before. Which I think was even what made NeosVR's ancestor possible

I've been arguing that that IP was developed with the help of funds obtained by selling NCR in various means

And even if he shares the IP rights, the company cannot demand access to the source code, having IP rights doesn't mean you can force someone to give you a copy of code.

Which actually did not happen and was denied by all involved so far

Dev team members say, they never received anything from those funds. I think I remember Karel even saying that himself, but I might be hallucinating that

If for example I have copyright over a book, I cannot force someone who owns a copy to give me their copy or to force them to make a copy to give me.

Except the IP wasn't developed. Patreon and such just went to overhead; Karel had control of the funds the entire time

What happened is Karel offering money from these funds and the developers all refusing to even send invoices

thats a bunk claim then given the prolonged time NCR was sold and the costs of maintaining Neos. Again that's just arbitrarily partitioning off funds for convenience of your argument

That way it's damn sure they never received any of the ICO funds, as they out right refused to be paid from that

Except that's *literally* what happeend

Just because you deny it's plausibility doesn't mean it's not what happened.

And from there on always refused to be paid, not matter what they had been offered later

whats in the company's war chest is money. The company's money is the company's money regardless of where it's stored. And devs had been paid in the past, and Neos infrastructure funded and operating because of those funds. Does upkeeping Neos not help its development? lol.

it isn't as easy as that. The ICO funds had to be kept separate for reasons

Isn't it even that ICO funds went into a different company? Who knows?

ICO funds are still part of thr company's runway, but even ignoring that, NCR was sold and given out in various other ways

It was used as rewards for developing the ingame ecosystem and an incentive for patreon

And developers received it as well

Careful about to see what the developers actually received

How much you wanna bet they sold theirs?

If, then it was CDFT

it never ever was Ethereum from the ICO funds

so, whatever the developers got, it never transferred in or out of the ICO funds

If the developers ever got paid anything from Patreon while NCR was distributed for pledging, that counts

the NCR were also allocated a fixed amount to CDFT as you can get from the old white paper

Yes, but the Patreon money and NCR mint from that also didn't affect the ICO funds

And there's the other issue that while they remained under Neos as developers, they disparaged the prosuct they were just prior promoting and selling to people

and if at most, Patreon money would have been put into the ICO funds, not taken out of it

did the ICO price at one point affect patreon funds?

Patreon money was available without obligations to ICO

I mean, did people ever pledge to patreon to get more NCR?

Again, Patreon money was available without any obligations towards ICO

In the hypothetical scenario the IP for the software is awarded to the company, including rights over the source code, the company would still not have the source code unless it already had a copy of it.

But did people ever pledge to patreon in-order-to get NCR? Thats what I wanna know

There is no point talking about Patreon or whether it had NCR as a perk or not. It was a perk

So because you call it a "perk" it checks off all the legal boxes to safe-scam people with?

See how I mean you argue only in convenience for one side?

would it be a discussion otherwise?

When you consider how many safe-scams work on Kickstarter with less...

What even is a "safe-scam"?

Its always the same. Everything Froox does is not liable to anyone, but at the same time he's owner of all property

A scam that has little repercussions when it's discovered.

So pretty much legally sound and who fell for it is just stupid?

Basically the logic is I can sell a currency, but I call it a perk, so its free to rugpull

I wouldn't say stupid

As if you don't "argue in convenience" for Karel

"Arguing for convenience" is literally just

arguing

Like how people bought into Patreon just to get NCR?

That's the whole point. One group's on one side one group's on the other

The only problem I see with Patreon is that it sometimes forgets to award people the NCR or storage they're due.

No its that he's using like 2 or 3 too many semantic explanations

Well, I cannot make out a rug-pull in this case. Karel bought back NCR. The dev team never received anything from the ICO. Either of these being the opposite would be a requirement for it being a rug-pull from their end

I think you could sue the company for negligence.

Only one part of a rug-pull is satisfied

we can easily establish that people pledged to patreon specifically to get NCR. A look at when NCR peaked to other 100thousand proves that

A big chunk of people pledging to the patreon simply wantd more storage space

Let me cite the definition: "A rug pull in the crypto industry is when a development team suddenly abandons a project and sells or removes all its liquidity."

to play the game

I did it to both get NCR and support the developers.

The developer team might have abandoned Neos, but they didn't have the ability to sell or remove all the liquidity of NCR

I did receive all the NCR, but, as far as I know, the other part that was meant to go to developers, did not

NCR is storage space

NCR is a crypto token
It's not Neos storage space

Karel hasn't abandoned Neos, and even though he had the ability to remove all the liquidity, he did the opposite and provided liquidity by buying back

And funding Neos itself is funding its development. It keeps it deployed so Froox can work on it

Therefore, no rug-pull either side

Karel is a weirdo

you can buy storage with it lol

Yes but it is incorrect to say "NCR is storage"

I'm poor

https://ash.tips/20231011120729sKrmS.png

I have much more than that

I should actually be one complaining and trying to sue

Though I see the reality of the situation

What should I do with my NCR?

Send it to me?

Abandon it

Change it back to the typo, it made me laugh

Gasp! FUD alert!

Don't abandon it, don't burn it, it'll just make the remaining NCR more valuable

Actually, I'd like NCR being more valuable, so I can sell with a profit

Orc, what do you think I should do with my NCR?

Turn it into $0.2

I really thought Neos was going to be the new metaverse

Actually, same ^^

Reonite might be

I know very well, that Resonite won't be the new metaverse for at least two reasons. It lacks what it needs to be a new metaverse and there are actors who shouldn't even be in control of a metaverse

However, it's a nice place to hang out and be creative

I really want to hear what Orc thinks I should do with my NCR now

Because my original plan was to just hodl

hodl is a good idea, burning it as well. As that makes the remaining NCR more valuable

Both is good for all other NCR holders, but only hodl is in your interest

hold it for old time's sake

Do you think I should keep it in Neos or transfer it to a wallet?

like I do with mine

I put it in a wallet, its a reminder to me about being wise in where you place your trust

Same, I put it into my hardware wallet as well

Especially as I want to avoid it being accidentally used as staking

Thanks

it reminds me to not expect others to build the future you want

Because, holding for one year, no financial gain taxes. But staking it and I have to hold for ten years for that same benefit

I have a lot less of it though, just enough to notice it move around a lil bit

if it pumps alittle dont be shy about letting it go

thats like, a nice chunk toward something good

I wonder, do you have more or less than 1k NCR?

I expect youre a longtime holder, so I dont assume you lost anything on it yet

much less than 1k

Well, I lost on NCR that I got from Patreon, but that was a perk and not actually bought, even though I like to officially say that I bought that NCR

I only lost maybe like 20% of the value of NCR I actually bought in the ICO, should I sell today

I could have made a middle 5 figure sum if I had sold it during the buy backs. I'm still annoyed that I didn't. Would have been very helpful, even though I'd have paid half of it as taxes when I realized that amount back then

I think NCR would be much better off if not for the existential concerns over it for so long. I compare it to MANA which holds much higher despite not going as high as NCR

MANA at least has a working metaverse behind it

which of those MANA or SAND has this defunct DAO?

at the time, Decentraland looked pathetic in comparison though

Yeah I could've made a nice little chunk of change if I sold my mmc reward back then

I know there is one of these decentralized metaverses that have a DAO, which effectively has a single dictator now

decentraland has a crypto-centric community and uses for its token, but on the other hand Neos is the better game

So, my original plan was that I would just keep subscribed to patreon and slowly build more currency over time, at the worst, the currency wouldn't suffer inflation, so it would keep its value

so its hard to day where it would be, but I think if there was no turmoil it'd be around $.5 I recon

There is no point in supporting Patreon right now to me

And then one day when Neos was really big in the metaverse space, I had spending money and I could use it for stuff in it or whatever

I unsubscribed beginning of this year

That was also my plan

well, you never know, it might get a big pump or maybe Karel's UE5 version will be good enough

Look at something silly like Telcoin, you can see hoe it died off then years later went parabolic

Anyway, Karel lost all the creators making content for him for free (or CDFT)

so theres some hopium for ya

Now he has to pay developers and content creators for content for his new UE5 game

The UE5 engine license won't allow content creation inside it, which doesn't give me hope

I think so as well, but reading the license, I kind of lose hope, that it's actually true

how?

And the thing that made Neos unique for me is that you can create stuff inside it while in VR etc.

There are phrases in the license that makes me think, that recreating content creation tools inside UE5 is against the terms

I think people are misinterpretting Sweeny's words about the film and other industrial uses

That's even a completely different matter, which would make the UE5 client itself unsuitable for film production

you can have multiplayer sessions in UE5 while the editor is open and make changes in real time

if you use the UE5 editor, that is

However NeosVR lives from the ability to be the editor, to be the SDK, to be the client

Whatever UE5 client there might be, it'd have the same limitation as Helios. Maybe it could make sense to get Helios as the Neos Metaverse client of the future?

Where a will there is a way. Create your own systems, use Unreal just as a rendering Core, as Neos did

Mind the license, whether that is even accepted to do with UE5

Yes it is. Open sourcing the entire project including InEditor Tools is not allowed. Solely using a custom version of Unreal it certainly is. What you are not allowed tondo is copy existing Editor Only tools

neither creating replacements for these

A simple level editor is okay. An inspector to edit the world is not

Im not too familiar with unreal yet, but atleast its a pro-metaverse company and its a powerful engine

but Im serious btw

we're gonna dark souls resonite

me and the NCR holders

we'll make it a cryto centric game, change its name to cryptonite

Ill mint probable's soul as an NFT and wear it on a chain

Wat

You don't even have enough stake to be serious

its not about the steak

i like steak

Steak is boring

chicken is better

Animal meat is boring, plant parts and mushrooms can be made in so many creative and tasty ways

I get my plant parts from my meat parts eating the plant

Careful looks like you're spreading FUD while holding NCR, intentionally dropping its value and all that. Try not to sue yourself

Ayo if anyone here’s lost money due to CDFT let me know so I could tell you

If your car warranty is out of date you may be approved for an extended warr-

better to have all of the above surely

There is language in the UE5 licence that prohibits the distribution of "Engine Tools" with your product, wherein "Engine Tools" are defined as:
(a) editors and other tools included in the Engine Code; (b) any
code and modules in either the Developer or Editor folders, including in object code format, whether statically or dynamically linked; and (c) other software that may be used to develop standalone products based on the Licensed Technology.

There is language about how these sort of tools have to be distributed:
"Any public Distribution (i.e., intended for Engine Licensees generally) which includes Engine Tools (including as modified by you under the License) must take place either through the Marketplace (e.g., for distributing a Product’s modding tool or editor to end users) or through a fork of Epic’s GitHub Unreal Engine Network (e.g., for distributing
source code)."

As it stands, the UE5 licence doesn't really seem to support the assumptions of Neo's workflow, as it is formulated with more of a traditional Product and GDK/Mod Kit separation in mind.

Which isn't to say that something couldn't be worked out, just that editors are explicitly called out in the licensing terms as having to be treated in a way that Neos does not currently treat them. Which is enough for me, personally, to side-eye relying on the technology. Especially when Godot and O3DE are like, right there.

Like, I read all of that and I don't interpret it as in-game tools for building, or even anything like Logix. It sounds like the line is drawn with tools out of game. You can make games inside Neos but they're still inside Neos and can't be packaged up outside of it, afaik. Atleast thats how it sounds to me at a glance

It says editors for your game. You could argue technicalities, but again, I don't think it's worth it when there are other tools available hat don't have to rely on specific legal hermenutics to be in compliance.

Well youre probably right

I am also always in the mindset of "I don't trust Epic and Unity, they will stab you in the back" so, there is that :P

building on a foundation that can be shook like with unity isn't really aligned with the principles I want in the metaverse

but atleast Epic has powerful tools and its a metaverse believing company

They are a fortnight believing company, sure, I won't argue against that. I really don't like when people call fortnight/roblox metaverses though.

I don't either but it makes sense to thinknof then that way. From their view it makes more sense to take a successful game that people socialize in and transition it into a metaverse, or connect it to a metaverse, than trying to build one from scratch

If I was in chaege of an MMO thats the direction I would steer it, for example

I really hate the word metaverse. It's such a meaningless buzz word at this point.

Like give people the tools to be the character theyre attached to outside of that specific game

I mean hell the definition is loose enough at this point to call MapleStory a metaverse

it will either always be cringey or take a decade for people to not rememeber this awkward period

It makes sense from the perspective of someone trying to argue that games are the native metaphor for the metaverse. I don't really think that's the case. Honestly I still see the metaverse as an extension of hypermedia, and I'd probably be more comfortable using 'cyberspace' but i recognize it's a bit of a dated term and the zeitgeist likes Ms for some reason :3

Roblox and Fortnight have a specific marketing goal with their attempts to spin their platforms as metaverses. Nvidia is probably a bit closer to what I would be discussing when using the term with their push to standardize USD, etc as cross-platform standards.

I like the word though, it atleast stimulates my imagination

What are the other Ms?

No clue. But why else would we get rid of cyberspace? Cyberspace was such a cool word :<

lets just call it The Wired

Mikoshi co-processors required? :3

"Everyone's always connected" Lain was more cringe than metaverse honestly

Im probably partial to parts of tbe metaverse neing natively games. I guess because I play games and it just makes me think "well the combat system is in place" concerning that place and the cpmbat systems I've played in other "metaverse" like SL or VRC have been sloppy experiences

You know there are combat systems in both neos and reso right

I also think standard for resolving conflict aren't thought of as much when ppl brainstorm metaverse ideas

I liked Lain :<

Me too when I was an edgy thirteen year old. Idk I really tried to rewatch it recently it didn't hold up at all

of course and theyre usually bad, and there's something of legitimacy when you use the world's native one instead of being like "oh yeah lets step outside and load -mycombatsystem of course-"

Parts of it, sure. Hypermedia needs to extend to be able to address games as media to realize its potential. But it also needs to be able to address encyclopedias and film libraries.

Yea kinda think of there was a standardized one people would just exploit it anyway by building weapons with insane stats

PvE could be semi balanced but PvP wouldn't be

why wouldn't it be?

Bc nothing would stop me from building God tier weapons by changing numbers

why wouldn't it be?

PvE I feel like you could almost account for that and have like a scaling difficulty

that's why there has to be standards in place, things people agree on imo

I don't think you can do that in a system as open as this but maybe.

Like, we need consistent and formal machine ontologies that can encompass those ideas. But I think it's a bit silly to be like "Well, clearly the metaverse is going to be using CS-Go tactical gameplay over COD-like."

One arbitrary system being proffered as like 'the metaverse' means that expression is limited and can't encompas everything that could otherwise be expressed by those ontologies.

I played one in SL and the sim sold a special sword for 1k linden, the only one that xould life steal. every other sword was just plain

I don't see multiple game systems co-existing but not necessarily seamlessly interacting as a bad thing, I would view that as the goal.

I think of it as like, incorporating things people understand. Maybe a better example is a pokemon battle, because another entity handles the balancing of those creatures, etc and generally people know how to play it

maybe an even better example would be Cross Universe :)

don't you hate card games? you whos name I can't pronounce

in snow crash the sword fighting was like a loaded in module iirc

So I get what you're saying but sl you can lock your lsl up better than logix/pf and if the world/system was the only place to get weapons maybe. But even official large games like Pokemon deal with the issue of hackers spawning in shinies and giving them weird op movesets

I think I understand enough of what you said to say that makes sense

Actually, when I was first introduced to Neos I remember someone told me that there was some kind of funky licensing you could do to get permission to make standalone distributable versions of games or things made in Neos.

Me? I love card games. MTG for days.

Idk I'd love to see a multi world MMO on either platform

Hell if you did it correctly both platforms can push variables out. You could make a cross platform mmo

I for one would love the option of challenging someone to a duel after a heated debate

you guys would be dead. Id be like, talking to your heads on my shoulderpikes right now

neos supports that btw

Shoulder mounted heads?

I'm sure

i know you can detatch heads and talk to them

Definitely 😁

You're telling me a shoulder mounted this head??

no I mean them, irick

Ohhh I was confused 🤣

Oh, I like card games. I'm not too crazy about trading card games, but that's more like not enjoying micro-transaction driven game design.

It is every single store's guilty bread and butter.

I like them, I like the trading aspect but I do agree its like a doomed design

thr players and card makers incentives dont align like AT ALL

I love MTG honestly, It just pains me how inaccessable some levels of play are. And yeah, the perverse incentives are weird. But it's amazingly fun to mess around with litteral decades of interlocking core mechanics and fiddly one-off ones.

That's why I like to play them with proxy cards or simulated drafts. Keeps things fair in terms of money gap

MTG is one of the pure joys of tabletop game design IMO. Just watching language interact through little scraps of paper.

It's kinda a great intro to logic. Awesome way to get people into coding

Or at least it's kinda how I got in

Oh, like explaining stack resolution? I can see that.

I'm so done with MTG, too much wrong with it, too much greed and creatively bankrupt design and I can't stomach it becoming the funkopop of games with these cringe crossovers

Yeah I definitely feel that

Yeah, that's sort of the unfortunate fate of it.

I still pop in occasionally for Unhinged, etc. sets but I haven't followed meta seriously since zindikar.

Last big deck I made was during Odyssey I think

God I'm old

They formalized EDH around that time into Generals and it frankly sucked all fo the joy out of the last format I enjoyed :<

I don't play commander lol

It didn't exist when I used to play and I'm too old to want to play it

Grumpy old man noises

mtg is nothing if I can't enjoy the imagination of being a wizard not.. playing with cards of exhausted popculture slop. I get mocked for taking a stand against it but why should unimaginative people get to invade on that space?

So wreck em with your shadow wizard money gang swag

I get that. I'm sure Appendix N could have been ridiculed as pop culture slop back in the day, but it hits different when suddenly we need to extend cognitive dissonance to Dr Who showing up.

If you hate them beat them and take their cards. Collect all of them. Bring them off the market. Make them hella valuable. Resell. Profit.

EDH is scarred for life when the rules committee betrayed their players to allow walking dead

Oh I do

You can do it orc I have faith in you

It's almost like people coming into an imaginative and creative space just looking for a quick buck can really ruin things, eh?

I mercillessly conspire against anyone playing a pop culture commander

that took me awhile to understand

I just liked EDH for the ridiculously Rube Goldberg like engines people would come up with. The limitations of the format made for frankly hilarious builds. It never felt super competitive to me until after it got accepted as an official format, and then it was back to feeling like legacy, but with a twist.

Yeah, I... am in a really specific niche and I keep forgetting that.

"Oh everyone knows what machine ontologies and Appendix N are, i can just drop those phrases without preamble"

(For context, machine ontologies are basically machine readable... models of truth? okay, that one I can't explain easily, but I blame philosophers. Appendix N is just a lot of books and stuff Gary Gygax, the guy who made D&D listed as good source material for running the game)

The curse of actually getting excited over stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Description_Framework is that there is no way I can explain to someone not already pretty deep into my field why it's exciting or necessary.

Difference?

And show me where this is written

Steak?

https://t.me/c/1314262393/53162

talks about the in editor code tools. Not actual tools being shipped with the game

Actually it literally talks about distribution of tools as edited by you. Which would be the inspector and anything else.

a) tools that are included in the Engine Code, the actual tools (you cant ship the "actual" tools in the engine)
b) tools that modules Developer or Editor folders (both are not present in Shipping Builds)
c) software that is "based" on the Licensed Technology

"including as modified by you"

"modified" not created. It also states additionally. That you can get inspired by the UE Source Code but not copying it.

It's actually c, so a world could be defined as a standalone based on the technology, which is UE

Which is also being distributed outside of the usual UE channels, if it was like NeosVR

Hey all

Anyone know how to reset an account password? I'm kind of locked out of my account. XD

nevermind, I'm an idiot. XD

Defined doesnt mean it is. Even then, we are talking about Engine Tools, tools that are not going to be used.

They clarify editors and modding tools in the distribution paragraph as well.

E.g. you have to use the marketplace to distribute editors and modding tools.

Wow lol so even though its a "brand new platform" they kept you banned. Sounds kinda like a team that holds personal grudges.

Good thing i dont have that issue. (even tho i have far better platforms to use)

It isn't about grudges in this case

The ban is till he's 18

Or that's when the appeal is at

I think he requested himself that the ban was transferred I saw somewhere

Because other people that were banned on neos are no longer banned

Atleast the ones I know of

When is there updates on the new neos game 🥺 the unreal engine looks nice

Lol still kinda funny. Its like if i was banned from McDonald's and the owner quit and a place next door opened up called mcsnergals and im banned from there and never stepped foot in the place

Just lets me know its not a new platform

It's not about grudges it was requested

Everyone as far as I know all got unbanned

You gave an example where that makes total sense

If you assaulted one of my staff in one location I wouldnt want you in again even if i open up a new shop under a new company or name

but also as alex said, that was no the case here even

Lol.

Moderation team themselves said, that depending on the circumstances, they might transfer single bans over

Also given what that ban might have been, you might want it to carry over and maybe even extend on other platforms as well. Talking about certain kinds of bans, not this ban inparticular

An example for another things that you'd want to carry over to other places is a ban from all casinos or gambling places

To mitigate gambling addiction

Or another example, ban from all bars to mitigate alcohol addiction

weird, that I found reasons that have to do with addictions, I don't know what reason that one specific ban had though

Luckily my ban didn't transfer ;3

I made sure the mods new i was in game and to transfer. The ban transfered reguardless. I can appeal at 18 / 52 days

Most bans thats hard will transfer. Soft prob not

what was your ban for? was it from karel

Nope wasn't karel. Was the old guard. Ones no longer valid.

Old Guard?

Oh old neos team

Karel Still Disappeared It Is Joever

Andrea Mysteriously Also Missing

@malooniac

Aren't they just busy? Nice Andrea respond quickly and well spoken

No official activity like an active devlog, release notes, etc. reduces morale that's for sure.

devlog would be very nice. Would be amazing to see new project blossom

Andrea is actively responding to Neos emails, I just don't think they bother with this Telegram anymore.

Why a prototype of the mtc imported into unreal and a web browser UI was so hyped up by them will never make sense to me.

It's not just that they've not shown anything important to a platform like neos functioning, it's that they're acting like they have

If we are quiet it means we are working. We're getting staking ready and will share some preview videos from the Cooper’s Planet soon.
Also, by early next week you'll be able to buy Neos storage with NCR through your Neos account interface.☺️

The UI is just as important part of the development as any other. It is much easier for new users to navigate in the platform where the UI is consistent, simple and doesn’t feel like you've taken a trip back to the '90s. 😁And all is of course work in progress. We are preparing other parts of UI, and we plan to roll these out in stages.
We will next introduce things like a world browser and new contact panels, integrated in Unreal and of course on the web.
You might not be able to enjoy all functionalities immediatelly, just like with the current home or inventory screen but we will be gradually adding more. 😊

That completely misses the point I'm making. You're completely avoiding even mentioning the base functionality that makes the game you're trying to create possible, instead trying to direct people's attention away from it, using the fancy web UI as a distraction.

It is absolutely not what I am doing but I do understand that it might be percieved that way.
I am simply focusing on highlighting more immediate updates that will be coming as I was asked on why a prototype of MTC was shown with the UI in Unreal.

The other sides of development are of course in place and we are working towards solutions outlined in the Neos Whitepaper. Release notes and other dev updates that someone mentioned earlier are also a great idea down the line.

And thank you, I am glad you think the web UI is fancy⭐️

A new UI is nice and all, and yeah it's important, but you're completely losing your chance to have early adopters and creators start working with the systems early so that there's knowledgeable people around that know what the platforms capable of, and to provide feedback on functionality.

So, what are your plans for UGC moving forward (and for the "metaverse built from within" concept outlined in the whitepaper)?

Unreal by terms doesn't allow for what Neos was known for, and it doesn't seem like you have anyone left who can work on FrooxEngine.

A new UI is nice and all, and important, but if you can't ever upgrade the core architecture, what is the future for Neos? Just the coin?

Your daily active users seem to be hovering in the 10-20 range, and that's a generous estimate. As I'm writing this, SteamDB reports TWO ACTIVE USERS currently in Neos. Total. Period. You're also hovering around a 59% approval rating. What are your plans to counteract both of those things?

Are you guys working on the webp vulnerability? its been like a month and this issue still exist in the program on the website version. .—-.

Adding in NCR and NCR UI work instead of Priotizing fixing a potential vulnerability (wich can be fixed in 1hr)
Seems almost malicious doesnt it?

(and yes this vulnerability is in the Website Launcher version and Steam version)

Are the neos devs still devving for Karel's neos?

been a while since I swung around the telegram, wasn't sure where everything ended up

The original devs, no they're on a separate project now.

They resigned a while back

Is there any ongoing legal battles

As far as we know no. But /shrug

URGENT: Critical libwebp Vulnerability Patch for Neos

Neos uses a library called FreeImage which is impacted by a critical libwebp vulnerability (CVE-2023-5129 / CVE-2023-4863). Frooxius has patched FreeImage and has provided the source code on the YDMS GitHub. https://github.com/Yellow-Dog-Man/FreeImage

Below you will find a copy of FreeImage.dll which has been compiled from the patched source above. You must replace all copies of the FreeImage.dll file in your copy of Neos in order to mitigate the vulnerability. Alternatively, you may use the FreeImage.dll file from your Beta copy of Resonite.

We highly recommend that you apply this patch immediately before using Neos.

Patch Instructions for Steam

Open the Steam Library page for Neos, then click on the gear and choose Manage -> Browse local game files.
Overwrite the FreeImage.dll file located in the following paths with the patched dll.

Neos_Data\Plugins\x86_64
Tools
Tools\AdminX
Tools\Minecraft2Neos

Patch Instructions for Standalone (downloaded from neos.com)

Browse to the install path of your Neos standalone, substitute C:\Neos with the path you installed Neos to.
Overwrite the FreeImage.dll file located in the following paths with the patched dll.

C:\Neos
C:\Neos\app\Neos_Data\Plugins\x86_64
C:\Neos\app\Tools
C:\Neos\app\Tools\AdminX
C:\Neos\app\Tools\Minecraft2Neos

Why isnt this in Pinned msgs Karel @malooniac ? this is a huge vulnerability wich still havent been patched.

Ok thanks for the info

Couldn't someone upload image and wear it on person to then affect others who aren't patched?

Could even put it into the thumbnail of a world/session or as a profile picture

make an exploited image that fixes the exploit XD

This.

(Not a lawyer, and certainly not anyone in here's lawyer): But really, don't do this. FWIW, I am fairly certain that deliberately exploiting vulnerabilities to patch the same vulnerability is one of those things that's just not legal unless you're like... the government, and it's gone through the appropriate legal review processes, and when the weighted balancing of potential harms to benefits is applied, the overall scale tips in favor of concrete benefits (think: taking down a botnet, or something). There's too much variability between systems to account for all specific installation types, and in the event that things went pear-shaped with the exploit which then overwrites the DLL with a patched version, the using the argument of, "Oh, but I was using this exploit to fix the exploit!" as a defense more-likely-than-not wouldn't hold much weight, and any legal consequences of any deleterious effects on end-users' systems would be solely on the creator of the ""exploit fix"".

That's my two cents, at least. Just leave it be. If the Neos Foundation chooses to update the Freeimage.dll file in—minimally— the stand-alone distribution, repacking the setup .exe is, or should be, dead simple, and no more than perhaps thirty minutes of total time (if that) to rip any copies of the vulnerable DLL out, and shove the newest version in.

Not a lawyer, but is a company liable for dmgs if they leave an exploit open for attacks on thier program? We can only assume its intentional by now if they haven't patched this issue by now.

This must be grounds for basic negligence atleast by now

NAL but damages would have to occur first and not trying to be that guy but the userbase has dwindled to the point that if you did get attacked I'd be surprised.

Idk about negligence maybe but again not a lawyer

10 users who can still be hit by this exploit by someone who wants to make "revenge " on its users, we know this have been done before with the tail root hack,
Beside there still gotta be a duty of care from the company Right?

Why leave an vulnerabilitie open for attacks on thier software. I honestly don't get it at this point unless it's deliberately and out of malciuesness

I'm not trying to be put in a place to defend them I was just saying I think it's unlikely. Also unlikely they'll release an update before the new client imho. And IDK if either one of them addressed tailroot I think that was handled in community wasn't it?

Yeah that was handeled by the comunity aswell

Yup, and froox has released a patch as seen above. Not much else is going to happen I'd wager.

Still, if they are making an new launcher, just remove the old one from the site and put out a banner that says "new launcher releasing shortly"

Word but they haven't even pinned the community fix in here. I don't think they're worried about it enough to be bothered.

Again not trying to defend anyone just making guesses based on what I've seen already

Otherwise they are advertising an launcher with a known vulnerabilitie on it, dont they? And distributing it

You're not wrong, I think Andrea commented on it once asking if VRchat had updated it or something like that. But I smoke a lot of weed, and I can't find the post so I don't want you to think that's a quote or anything.

I think the argument there being they're not worried if others weren't worried.