Yes vrchat have fixed this issue, it was fixed within the hour. .---.

i genuinely think they may not be able to touch frooxengine as a base

so they can't push patches

If so, just delete the launcher if they are making a new one anyway

Again not sure, all I remember was a comparison that was seemingly valid and a dismissal but again I do drugs lol

i agree - but it's not just the launcher itself they'd be replacing, it's everything. basically all they have left is their coin. They don't have a game, a platform, an engine, anything. They probably don't have even the legwork on a new platform to replace the old one

That being said I can only imagine deving for a game like this would be exhausting as the majority of the community are tech experts or super users. You're going to catch flack from someone for every decision you make.

Stop smoking weed, if 90% of the industry fixed this vulnerability within the hour and thier excuse is "we don't see it as an issue becuse every decision we make gives some flack"

Then what are we even doing in here lol

the real reason, genuinely, is that they can't. like physically they cannot. FrooxEngine went with Froox; this is the clear reason the whole gamified mining demo was made in Unreal, not in the current Neos FrooxEngine client.

I'm mostly just here to see if they can give any clear answers about their future

That's not at all what I meant by that. This issue isn't something anyone would complain about

I just meant in general. And I'm here out of curiosity I think

Step 1, delete neos launcher from thier platform
Step 2, put up a banner " new launcher coming soon"
Step 3. rewrite the engine from scratch,

This would be the appropriate duty of care at this point then

At the very least writing an official patch would inspire confidence.

This ^

They can implement an ncr hud, but they can't add in a simple patch?

the current engine took ~17 years to get to its current state (it started life in 2014). good luck remaking that in any feasible timeframe for viability

If we are quiet it means we are working. We're getting staking ready and will share some preview videos from the Cooper’s Planet soon.
Also, by early next week you'll be able to buy Neos storage with NCR through your Neos account interface.☺️

A simple patch tho, you could hire someone on Fiverr

cooper's planet is a mining game built in unreal. hardly a social vr platform, let alone a "metaverse built from within" like the whitepaper describes

correction: mining tech demo essentially

and staking is just the coin

Second post mentions moving towards white paper but l think but no real substance as far as to how

they really genuinely don't have a platform anymore - they don't have access to a codebase to make new changes, all their userbase (that karel and andrea both hated) are gone, they have maybe one other engineer now, who was hired mostly for crypto stuff?

it does but unless they give any actual concrete hints at further plans, it's just them deflecting

But if what they're claiming is true idk I'm curious enough to stick in a telegram. I've already uninstalled the current client, I needed the space but if the unreal client does come out I'll try it.

im interested too, if only in a "i can't see this being anything other than fascinatingly bad" way

Very much a popcorn situation no matter how it goes

indeed

Like, for me the thing is - this was easily preventable. The reasons the development team wanted to pivot away were made very clear - the crash hurt a large amount of community members, and the coin was poorly implemented and conceptualized in a way that directly caused that (being both a funding and utility coin). Karel trying to stronghand development into focusing on crypto payments instead of improving the platform in other ways, bypassing their laid out roadmap and making hires not once discussed with Froox, was completely against what the team was trying to build.

Instead of listening to reason, Karel doubled down on a singular vision of crypto, and crypto only, as the focus of what Neos was. At every turn, he was hostile, threatening legal action if his vision wasn't met, and calling the community that gave the platform any viability or worth "degenerates". His only interest in Neos was the crypto community in this Telegram chat.

Whether Neos lives or dies is irrelevant to me now. Neos will never be what it was designed to be. But now that his entire team basically has walked, due to their own actions, I have been curious to see what their plans are or reactions to it have been. So far the answer has been... deny it is even happening and deflect any criticism with substance with weird emotional ploys

hi you don't know what the hell you're talking about

basically you don't like crypto so that colors your bunk view of past events

Its insane how re-written history is with these people. Karel didn't try to strong-arm a crypto vision, if anything cryptobros were complaining he wasn't focused enough on it when he said he wouldn't sell virtual real estate

All Karel really tried to do was protect the people he sold the coin to, something every other dev felt sociopathically OK with fcking over

The biggest thing I actually wanted for years was UI overhaul by a professional UI designer for Neos to be more easily used by beginners. That will help a lot. Also encoder for desktop and browser sharing and Neos Store.

Yes crypto features such as automated withdrawhals and deposits are quite low hanging fruit and prerequisite to Neos Store. Would be nice to have those sooner. Calling my vision of Neos crypto centric is silly. My vision was always for Neos to be used by orders of magnitudes more people. Certainly not all of them using crypto.

Karel could you adress the vulnerability in neos please? It's on the website neos.com aswell? :b

As you know NeosVR client is not managed by us, it was never handed over. Neos.com is hosted by webflow.com I highly doubt that they have such a security issue. Contact their support with details but it sounds like FUD to me.

The neosvr client, wich is hosted by neos.com have this vulnerability

If the client isn't managed by you, then the right step would be to remove it from the website and add a banner for "new launcher coming soon" ?

Calling a potential security vulnerability FUD is kinda short sighted imo

Why are you advertising a client with security vulnerability? On your own website?

did the Neos discord's prior management lock the discord to read only?

Yes

Yeah it was an unnoficial discord

Why didn't they hand over control of it to Karel? And Andrea?

They tried to contact em on discord with no response so

Because...it's unofficial? And Karel's not in it?

It’s the latest version of the client, not sure how removing it would help. Would be interested to know what security vulnerability you think it has. So far I’ve heard that the website neos.com has a security issue for a long time which sounds like a clear nonsense given the popularity of the host and the traffic it manages.

Patch Instructions for Standalone (downloaded from neos.com)

    Browse to the install path of your Neos standalone, substitute C:\Neos with the path you installed Neos to.
    Overwrite the FreeImage.dll file located in the following paths with the patched dll.

      C:\Neos
      C:\Neos\app\Neos_Data\Plugins\x86_64
      C:\Neos\app\Tools
      C:\Neos\app\Tools\AdminX
      C:\Neos\app\Tools\Minecraft2Neos

Did...you not hear about the massive exploit from a couple weeks ago? Literally everything on the internet updated to patch it. Including web browsers themselves.

I checked yesterday, and this weblib vulnerability is on the stand alone client, wich is hosted on neos.com

Ok that means the client has the issue not the website. Is there a new version of the NeosVR client we can put on the website instead?

yeah ublock needs to update I agree

There is no new client

I mena you should know?

Neos uses a library called FreeImage which is impacted by a critical libwebp vulnerability (CVE-2023-5129 / CVE-2023-4863). Frooxius has patched FreeImage and has provided the source code on the YDMS GitHub. https://github.com/Yellow-Dog-Man/FreeImage

We have this /\

How should I know again NeosVR client is unfortunately not developed by us. Never been handed over.

Was it agreed to have been handed over at some point in the past?

Awesome, so remove the client with a security vulnerability on your website then? It's the right thing to do, or it would be call for negligence?

Yes Frooxius promised to open source NeosVR a long time ago. Still waiting.

that will never happen

by "we have this" do you mean "we on reso have this" or do yo mean "the fix is here"?

That is the fix

You just have to follow the steps in there to replace the correct file

I think so as well. It will take some time but we will manage without and will be even better when we do.

So it can be applied without access to the code?

Yes. You can manually update your own Neos application.

But the issue White Derg is bringing up is the downloader from Steam/Neos website downloads the vulnerable version of NeosVR

And I really mean I don't think they want to go open source. they want to pretend like they intend to for clout, but in reality they love the control, they'd rather build some outdated SL clone they can lord over, is the impression I get

Is SL outdated tho?

yeah

ahead of its time, now outdated and cumbersome sloppy mess on ancient expensive servers

Spot on unfortunately, my impression as well

so they should apply this to those builds. Then I guess its nixe of him to provide it

but afaik there's no way to update the steam build? I believe its been said froox still has control of Neos' steam account

That would be up to Valve. However if there is not a newer version to update to then there’s not much point of involving them.

Afaik you can create a newer version with the patched files that people posted. So it is a matter of accessing the steamworks account.

Sounds like a good idea will check with our devs whether we can tell the new files are ok. Pretty pathetic Froox didn’t push this update if it’s basically already done. What a pathetic behavior. Certainly not the first case but certainly one of the more obvious and user facing.

The new files are opensource so you should be able to verify what they do. Is it a good idea to do so, but at the same time it is important to gain acess to the steamworks account if you dont have that to be able to actually push the update to steam. When it comes to updating the build that is downloaded from the website then just updating these files will fix the issue. No source code from original Neos should be required.
(Just as far as I know, not a Neos dev myself 🤷‍♂️)

Looking at the CVE there is a possibility of this getting exploited for remote code execution (attacker being able to run anything on the machine) which would be a very serious problem that could affect the whole PC, not just Neos.
This is very theoretical and I dont think there is an actual exploit for Neos at the moment, but that should not mean security bugs are not serious.

The patch for the vulnerability has been provided already, it is on GitHub. It doesn't even touch FrooxEngine. The patch is replacing the FreeImage library. You have all the resources available to you to replace this one single file in the steam and web launcher versions of the NeosVR client. Not doing anything of this with the utmost highest priority is negligence.

Its like that RCE that took dark souls offline for like a year

not yet, the missing resource is access to the Steam I guess

Froox never relinquished that

If nobody from here has acess to any of the steamworks accounts then its a matter of contacting valve, the sooner the better.

Also pretty sure there are people in this chat with enough knowledge to create the fix both for website and the steam build after access is gained.

So much confusion...

As publisher it should be possible to regain access to an account that allows publishing. It might already be in Karel's possession and he doesn't know it

Might be worth it to just try logging in with his personal steam account to steamworks and see xd

It's rude to accuse a developer who already left the company to not doing anything, it is no longer his job. You should be happy he provides the fix for the vulnerability as a simple file to replace in the release.

And not even asking for a consultancy fee, as other smart people who left a company would do in this case

He owes frankly much more to the people he walked over to get to where he is

he was selling NCR since 2018 or so, all that time building his code and then when it was time to leave it wasn't enough that he wanted to leave with full control, he had to spend 2 years disparaging those people who sunk money into funding his dream project

those NCR holders didn't deserve to be dragged into the fued, he trampled on others and then scoffed at them to get to where he is... and to say he deserves a consulting fee is just fcking bonkers lol

Imo either Karel or someone here should take ownership over Neos, or it should be discontinued or at last clearly stated that is it not maintained.
No point in fighting over what happened in the past as that will not solve the current situation.

I don’t think so. It’s rude not to hand over things properly to new devs. Me and Neos did so much for him, basic human decency is probably too much to ask.

You mean the NeosVR client.

It's not really over though. You don't screw people over and then say "you're being weird, lets forget the past"

Yeah I mean whatever is on steam and the website. The VR application that currently exists.

why didn't you persue legal action? NCR was being sold for years, helping fund Neos servers and paying to keep the lights on so he can work building his dream project.Then in 2022 he announces he wants to remove the product he was partner in selling to everyone

and the devs were making discussion threads in the discord like "brainstorming ways to remove NCR from Neos"

And making their disdain for the token public

they essentially used their holders as a knife to twist to try to force you out

Note here that hreads can be created by anyone, or more so since ist historical now "could"

well the note is that they were taking part in those threads and entertaining the ideas.

At the time, they were positioned as devs of Neos.

They never once said "don't worry, NCR we sold you is a part of Neos. We're not gonna rugpull you". Instead the attitude was " Hmmm maybe we will remove it. Interesting ideas."

To turn on people you sold something to like that the moment they aren't serving to be footstools toward your personal goals is horrendous

They were also usjng NCR as rewards to attract builders into the ecosystem

Do you mean CDFT?

Lets not play games. CDFT is basically NCR

There's no games in being accurate.

fine

was simply askig if you were referring to the CDFT since there was other things you couldve been talking about

yeah, was specifically referring to that

Yeah I think it’s super fucked up behavior as well not sure why a lot of people support it. We explored the legal options, would be probably a long battle with uncertain result. Not sure it is worth it, putting our energy into building a better future for Neos instead might be better use of our energy and funds.

I don't know other ways NCR was rewarded. I don't know but I've heard some devs received much of it

Not all NCR awarding was also done by staff, one key event that did this seperately was MMC

Yes devs received a lot of NCR through the CDFT token converting to NCR over time. They were the most active sellers from what I’ve seen. Beyond my understanding not sure whether to spite me or just greed. Doesn’t matter water under the bridge. I have to focus on positive stuff.

Personally while a good end would have been obviously favorable

I dont see why someone should not be allowed to quit work on a project

Quitting work is not the problem, sabotaging the company by not handing things properly to employees who are staying is.

I cant speak to how things were handled obviously since im not privy to such info but, yeah not handing accounts over properly is an annoyance for the company.

However you should generally have processes in place to alleviate such, ancient knowledge is always a key issue in any company that you dont want to have

Ancient knowledge basically referring to knowledge that "dies" with a person

That would have been fine, but instead they engaged in a stalemate while basically making it publicly known that if Froox managed to boot karel, they considered the NCR funders to be an extension of him and they'd remove them too

All ive seen is them saying that everyone is welcome but i assume you mean there the potential hypothetical removal of NCR

yeah, i worded that wrong

and I mean they say that but at the same time they talk shit about "cryptobros" and talk about everyone who bought NCR as being these uncouth parasites theyre glad to be rid of

honestly I could stomach a coin being abandoned but its the insult the devs bore on the very people who funded them that still sits wrong with me to this day

If it wasn't for that I'd likely be logged on reso

I've not really seen anything vicious said by specifically the former dev team but i guess the unofficial server stands there as an archive to ever look at

but for those reasons I really do wish there'd be legal actions, atleast in return for that selfish behavior

Eh, everyone acts in what they feel is their own best interest, you, karel, me, everyone.

At the end of the day the only people that know the full story are the ex devs and karel

well I hope you wouldnt be the type to dismiss those you stepped on to reach your personal dream

so.many typos, I better get to bed

Personally i guess i'll probs dip for now since, theres currently no new clent, the old client is unsafe. and that leaves me with nothing really to do.
Stay safe, imma go work on writing tutorials

goodluck friend

no legal issue with resonite? Karel

i respect this decision.
but even its a long battle, battle must start. otherwise it would be breach of duty imo

u dont have to really fully get into legal issue. but there's some things at least to be done (also preparing future arguments)

Resonite is unrelated to neos

not sure.

there's some obvious points that seems related

and it actually supports migration

Chrome lets you migrate your browser settings, bookmarks, cookies etc. from other browsers.

if u review the code, there will be a lot

i havent so im not sure

Theres some superficial similiarties due to usng the same engine

An example is Neos uses Logix

Resonite uses FLux

They are completely different languages with the only similiarity being both are node based

it seems to be a hard challenge, i agree..

difficult issie

its kind of joke

if i change 1%, its totally different? or 10%? very difficult..

No as in, Flux is literally 100% a different language

wow..

Froox is really a genius though;;

It's why resonite isnt really on topic here since the Neos Foundation has nothing to do with it

so resonite never reused "actual code" or never used any aspects of neos?....

quite astonishing

They both run on something called FrooxEngine

Considering the lawsuit stuff has gone nowhere with IP, I'm under the impression the codebase isn't owned by Solirax

this is what it should deal with on court

As I understand, this is what the past year has been about among other things.

a ha. so going to court is possible imo

but no need for it?

not a lawyer but that seems not likely since thats kinda like how CVR and VRC both use the same engine

it was two different opinions, until resonite really launched. Its not opinion but a actual business conflict

kind of typical issue with food chains also kk

u thrive making ramen, and make a new store next door

I remember what Karel said. He talked about ownership of the codebase was under Solirax and going to be addressed in the lawsuit etc.

ok. hope this "argument" becomes clarified

Wouldnt make much sense to since they are working on at least 1 client of ther own that seems to be using UE

Seeing at how they're at an impasse now and the wording over time has slowly shifted, it doesn't seem to me Solirax had much of a claim over the IP.

Never claimed, and lost

no sue, just means agreeing that Solirax had no IP

Seriously, the wording shifted. It went from Solirax owns the IP to, "Froox should open source" etc.

yeah...

maybe i'll come back next year. and see what would be the strategy of Karel's ship.

roadmap is really important..

ret rid of Froox's stake first

How would you do that?

u cant force it

needs agreement between 2

so why would you focus on that

it is a long term issue

start new project on new dish :)

Karel would need to get invested maybe, and Froox's stake will make it impossible

dont know what Karel is up to..

Solarix itself has a nonsense government structure

Is it Solarix or Solirax?

i thought it eas solarix kk

My brain is currently scrambled on the name.

me also

kkk

How much money did the old neos team make off of the NCR pump and dump.

I have heard it was SIGNIFICANT.

Then how much of that same money is being used to fund their new project?

I imagine a lot of people made out with significant amounts

But if even the people who made it out with a good bag don't want anything to do with it anymore, what does that say about the product?

If you can make a gajillion dollars, and then absolutely hate the source - does that maybe not warrant some sort of look into how screwy the system is? If even large bag holders want nothing to do with it?

Resonite is unrelated to here and funded via patreon

Yes completely unrelated. No connection what so ever. It is so greatly unrelated that you can migrate your neos account into Resonite.

It's just the same code and developers. No relation at all.

Only difference is now froox does not have to pay back anyone who invested into his product. How convenient.

The reason you can migrate is because they wrote code specifically to be able to migrate, which moves your assets over and translates stuff to work with Resonite

Its not the same code

The old devs wouldnt have to be paying anyone thats a weird statement

Also by unrelated i mean its entirely offtopic to this server

You can migrate your browser data when you change browser

Not the same code? So they coded Resonite from scratch?

I.e. If you install Firefox, you can migrate your browser data from Chrome etc

The the Resonite code was made from scratch?

Idk, I don't have the source code

One example of this is flux, it is entirely different from logix, which is one of the main things i bring up since I heavily have used both Flux and Logix. The two are in no way similiar under the hood besides both beng node languages, it would be like comparing UEs node flow to Logix

Привет всем есть ссылку Resonite только телеграм? (Hello everyone, there is a link Resonite only telegram?)

So they did code Resonite from scratch is what you are saying?

Well the point just brough up that i can say for certain is entirely different is basically the backbone of essentially ALL game logic so

Funny enough, today I've been working on a program that converts my Lightroom classic presets into LUTs for use in DaVinci Resolve. I'm not really sure why my program would be a problem because it migrates stuff.

So it is fair to say the foundational bones of Resonite were taken from the Neos code. But some features have been updated since then such as Flux?

So, assuming they're both running on Froox engine, would it be fair to say that both Neos and Resonite were taken from Froox engine?

Yes

And, note that, I don't really know how much is what. But, what part of Froox engine was Neos IP?

Callng Flux updated is entirely incorrect since it literally is just a completely different language, in my eyes vastly superior to logix.

They share some underlying code which is Frooxengine, essentially the engine the games run on, which is an engine made by Froox

An engine who's development was funded by a variety of supporters, including people who invested via NCR minting.

Lmfao there's so much anger in here y'all should sell some of that NCR you're hodling to get some therapy, damn. If it was funded properly the devs wouldn't have quit.

Money payed into the ICO was not used for any funding, it was used to mint

I don't really know what to do with my NCR tbh

I'm holding some still on the off chance that they do the make something cool

also to easily explain how "same" the code is

I just drag and dropped Frooxengine.dll from Resonite into Neos

My game is now permanently black screened

Lmfao

Nobody answered my question about what part of Froox engine is Neos IP

Non of the Ethereum made in the ICO was liquidated to pay any bills at all?

Yup

Karel has said so in the past

Show me

You know the game is obviously different to anyone who's spent the time to open an inspector in game. Hell almost anything with an onloaded logix node crashes.

You have never programmed anything have you?

Literally program 3 different languages. But gg tho.

Im sorry man but you are a few months too late i am not invested enough in old drama to dig through all of karels messages for ya, ya gonna have to do your own digging. its been like 1 and a half years of time before this resolved and even more time of messages before that

How convenient.

Eh nah id rather show ya but i dont have the time to wade through that much data for ya

Froox said development of Neos would not have been possible without NCR.

Woah wild, that totally tells you how finances were allocated, absolute poggers

I found this on the Discord. https://ash.tips/20231016150921yRcHF.png

Well, let us make the wild assumption that not a single byte of Eth was used to pay any bill whatever.

So where did the funding come from?

against my word i did do the dig for you in small to see if i can find it quick
https://i.imgur.com/XPqUo30.png

Server bills as an exampl were paid for by an account that was paid into via patreon as far as im aware

Mostly

entirely

He did not say that

the only time ico funds were used was as far as im aware were the buybacks

So most of neos was funded via the patreon?

Pretty much if by funded you are talkng about server bills etc

I think the story is that Neos servers were paid for by Patreon, but the development team were rarely ever paid.

The team actually working on code wasnt yeah, non code dev members had some paid on an invoice basis rarely

Froox was paid.

Froox was not paid

He had 0 salary?

And then, the team were contracted instead of employed, then further, because there was no proper contract in place for IP transfer, there wouldn't have been an IP transfer for work performed. Unlike if they were a regular employee.

Yup, i can see you are a bit late on this issue since this has been talked about like a year ago

When karel says the devs were "paid" what hes talking about is CDFT incentives which do not constitute legal salary or payment

Working for free here. Don't quit they'll say you owe them more work 🤣😅

I'm still genuinely interested though, what part of Froox Engine is Neos IP?

Also even if we accepted the incorrect asseessment that they were "paid" ... so what? payment is for services rendered not some blood oath

Fr fr I've built spreadsheets and applications for several companies. When I quit they don't get free updated.

I know for a fact that is not true. Froox was paid, even if it is not as much and as frequent as you would like.

And some of the volunteers were paid. Talk of what and when invoices were paid and stopped being sent was highly debated earlier.

You got any evidence to back that up tho?

But what part of Froox Engine is Neos IP?

I mean, some of the staff were paid. And they did get specific contract work for projects like the bHaptics world. I just don't think any of the work on the core engine was done for hire.

talking about coding side here

i did previously mention the non coding side were paid invoice wise

But froox was given money yes?

To code Frooxengine? no

I think 'coding' and 'dev' are ambigious terms here. I don't think anyone got compensated for their work on frooxengine, but they did get paid for the worlds and IIRC some of the projects on the educational side of things.

Yeah its why i specifically mentioned the code devs and other devs a bit higher up, since none of the people who worked on code got paid for that

The only exception i can potentially think of would be potentially Solirax edu stuff

Yeah. From what I recall frooxengine was litterally froox's demo platform, whereas Neos grew out as one of the largest projects utilizing it.

Yup, also this to me at least seems nonproductive to rehash, im more than happy to give info to peeps that came late but like, thats not the purpose of this TG, this TG is for Neos Credits discussion

What do I do with my NCR now?

I lick it

I think there are plans to let you buy storage through the web interface soon.

Also they sayed they are working on storage payments irc through the website but... thats for an insecure client so

until a new client releases im not touching that

I mean, maybe we can use the inventory as generic cloud storage. With a sufficiently documented API many things become possible :)

Could be neat although more expensive than normal cloudstorage

Eh, I don't really need it. I just have an avatar and that's all I need

like I payed significantly more for 1TB on Neos than on any cloudhost

I was expecting to be able to buy commissions or something one day through Neos with NCR, but, the creators seem to have left

yeah, but i've got all this free storage and ncr. and my neos inventory has no ingress/egress fees :3

yeah but its worth noting ncr was sold on patreon, thats what I keep saying over and over. like a soft ico on the side

It was an incentive to invest.

Yeah the NCR patreon rewards were basically to incentivice people to pay into the ICO manually later by giving them a reason to take a look at it

its complicated

When isnt it

atleast karel confirmed what I was pretty sure on, in thst devs received cdft, a large amount apparently. or atleast large enough that karel says he thinks they were the heaviest sellers

I dunno if hes just saying that or if hes seen onchain proof of that

I wouldn't hold it against them for selling anything they could to get funds considering the stories of little cash on hand

I mean regardless thats pretty meaningless since karel at least in his eyes saw that as payment, so why wouldnt they liquidate their money

its totally their right to

Although, at least in the UK, that's not typically considered a payment.

it definitely adds to the situation.

In most countries it is legally not considered pay yeah

and even if currency wise it could be classified as yknow, pay, since the company controls that currency that would go into very grey territory remniscant of company scrip

Also not just controls the currency, also controls the wallets

You're entitled to the minimum wage in the UK, regardless if you're a contractor or direct employee and what is considered payment in this criteria is specific enough to not consider stuff like stock, CDFT, crypto etc. as not a payment, at best just an agreement to provide it for some services rendered, still obligated to pay the minimum wage though.

Since at the time all transfers were entirely manually handled

At least from what I understand under employment over here, it's very hard to hold someone accountable for any work provided if they haven't been paid the minimum wage. Which adds a whole other level to this mess.

they probably didn't even have the funds to pay minimum wage to everyone who had their names stuck on the project, and each of them with varying degrees of involvement

To quote gov.uk

"Contracts for payments below the minimum wage are not legally binding"

But were they working under the UK company or the Czechian company?

Huh. So you must get paid at least minimum wage in British pounds before other benefits?

I was under the impression it was the UK, but, if someone can say otherwise, idk

Yes

afaik they were not employed by the czech one, there was no contracts wth it and the only tie is the joint ownership of the uk one

Solirax structure is a mess

it was a startup between two people, everyone else was considered a "volunteer"

The UK one yes, the other ones, no

Thats so weird. Here in the states if you're a contractor you can quote whatever price you want for a project, and whatever compensation you want.

the UK one?

Huh? really?

Have you not looked into the like 4 or 5 different soolirax entities?

Yeah, minimum wage only applies to employees here.

No

I mean, it would seem there is *significant* amounts of code from Neos, given that it literally still has a lot of the same bugs from before. It's had some bits swapped out (Logix > ProtoFlux, ColorX implemented, Steam Audio updated, etc) but a LOT is still the same. Changing some bits does not make it entirely new.

Neos and Solirax has never had any legal presence in the US afaik.

Ok so theres
Solirax LTD i thinnk which is uk and joint owned
A Solirax entitiy in Czech
Solirax EDU
and some others im rusty on this
Czech entity handles the money afaik

That's just frooxengine and the fact they use a lot of the same external libs, ye

Protoflux is just legally distinct Logix

don't think anyone can argue it is not essentially the same code from years ago. I thought the name changes like protoflux, etc were just formalities

Lolno, that one is very clearly 100% different

I'm just remarking on the difference. It is unexpected to me for a contract to be affected in that way. I'm not just sort of curious how project bidding works in the UK.

That's what I mean, its legally distinct.

You can get around minimum wage in some cases in the UK, but, it's complicated.

thats like saying pepsi is legally distinct coke and i 100% support this silliness

I mean that is true too.

No proto flux is different you can run async or sync processes now. It's honestly kinda confusing for some logix users

Gig economy is one of the ways you can get around it in the UK, however, people have sued and got minimum wage too with it.

I guess look at the UK law of how tech startups happen, because thats what neos was

I dont really wanna get into the borders of yknow "promoting" other stuff. but as someone who has deeply used both, calling the difference between the two languages a formality is heavily inaccurate

I dont think it makes sense to look at it from the perspective of hourly wage for a company that had no funds

I said I thought they were

Kinda have to when talking legality

If you can't afford to pay someone you're not entitled to their work

I think the cost would be even more for salary

I think with startups that dont have a profitable product, they offer some sort of stake in the company

Cdft isn't really stake in the company tho

Its something, thats for sure

I think the minimum wage right now is 1667.20GBP/month

Took a cursory glance at that kind of model and holy shit its a mess in the uk, i would not want to jump through all those hoops

I've been in start ups in the UK before, they still pay minimum wage, but just that and as you said, loads of stakes in the company

Yea idk I think karel was right to say the legal battle would be way too messy to be profitable.

To me it sounds like they paid basically all they could. Becaude some people did get paid, and cdft was handed out in large amounts it seems. And the company warchest was small up until the cryto boom, at which poijt problems manifested and devs refused pay

This is UK guidance for PAYE
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/non-cash-pay-shares-commodities-you-provide-to-your-employees

this sounds like a nightmare to manage

at least for stuff of fluctatig value

It's stuff left to accountants, the advantage here is that the company handles that and the employee doesn't have to do any of it

maybe, I more think of it from a moral standpoint but worth thinking about legally

Yeee, the main upside of most EU tax stuff is, we dont have to do it

And if the company is in the wrong, it's up to the company to fix it, not the employee screwed at the end. Which is the opposite to the states where the IRS basically goes after for doing your taxes wrong

IMO legal action would need to come from the people who were sold NCR, since they put stake in the product

The lobbying between shit like Turbotax and the goverment is still such wack shit

like it doesnt even reduce workload on the IRS since they still need to verify all your filings

Weren't you literally making a call to action for suing a while back ? That's a quick shift

I was just trying to piss on someone

As a NCR holder, I don't even know what's the point anymore

Facts

well, I imagine theres some people out there who lost big and have something of a case to make

and I'd like to meet them 😉

tbh orc is fine to talk to once you understand its generally 75% inflammatory

Even the dullest tool can occasionally have a point

That would be Mj

Telegram ID: 5216015557

He has no username so I can't link him directly

He lost really big on NCR

Mj's view in the past was that that the SEC should go after Solirax rather than him suing

That would make more sense than aiming at the old guard imho

I think there'd be more legal footing there. But either way it looks shaky.

Yeah, I don't see the situation as criminal enough to justify piercing the corporate veil. I really doubt you could argue for personal liability.

Well put

What Is The Future Of Neos If The Platform Was Used For E-Sex And Now Resonite Is The E-Sex Neos

No Reason To Use Neos For This Anymore

NCR Holders Do Not Play Neos

Metaverse Speculators Do Not Own VR Headsets

The content creators all left. The only people I see online now are people that wander in by accident or people checking back in to meme on what they find.

only reason i log in is to just. take in how much stuff has changed between neos and resonite and to see how quiet it went

and nostalgia (5k hours)

‘Xcuse you, I don’t do e-sex on neos Or resonite.

Big same, tbh I don't even socialize in either I really just use it to experience old game worlds on VR but I'm edge case at best

I just wanted stake

worlds were many, projects were amazing. Nothing like anything else. Lots of promise to help make projects go to moon. Didn't know feud. Learned sad story. Only stake left.

They keep saying it's on its way. The history is wild tho. I want to see a documentary about it

no more bad documentaries

C'mon orc this one could talk about how much butthurt y'all crypto homies have. I'm good to see both sides I just want entertained

<3

Hello all, just wanted to let you know that we have implemented and launched the functionality of purchasing storage for NCR from the web, so you should be able to do it comfortably from your account interface.😊️️️️
We will keep an eye on any bugs but please let us know in case you experience any issues. I understand that this is not the most sought after update at this point but it will for sure make things easier from this point onwards.

Only 5 people were on. 10 including headless last night when I popped in to check. 100% hermit level though.

You need to use a lnl relay mod to connect to other people else it will give an error I think the official lnl relay was taken down 🤔

There is still maintaining via mods

So that is good

You can also directly connect to a session using LogiX no mods needed

It does however require the host and connecting user to have NAT 1 or 2 so anyone with a strict NAT (NAT 3) cannot connect without the lnl relay

That's where mods are handy

Is there roadmap for new update soon? What next update going to be?

i only know of a mod that disabled the lnl relay which would be useless if the lnl relay is down anyways

i just tested it with the japanese user (they should have NAT type 3 and i can only connect through steam networking sockets
the NAT punchtrough failed, lnl relay didnt connect but steam networking sockets did work so most players should have no issues with connecting to others except if they're behind a strict NAT cant use steam to connect (headless cannot use steam sockets) or they play the standalone/oculus runtime without steam running

There's also the IPv6 mod I wrote for users that are fortunate to have IPv6. I'm currently still supporting it for Neos for those who can benefit from it.

Does it improve that much, wouldn’t both people have to use it? How many people use it

For those behind a strict NAT, it's been a very good quality improvement as they do not need to mess with tunnels, or use the LNL Relay. It does require that both parties use it, but it works great on the headless.

Though that does mean the stand alone client is basically SOL :<

Would I notice if I was behind a strict NAT? I’ve never checked my uni’s network

I made a tool for this :)

https://networktest.razortune.com/

Be sure to use a browser that supports WebRTC (Chrome, Firefox, Edge)

i wish all browsers supported that stuff

i should swap over to some brwoser that supports webserial

i use firefox and its annoying that it cant access serial ports

https://i.imgur.com/rlCzeTy.jpeg

yippie!

I would use this, but I was told it tries IPv6 first, before IPv4 - I'd rather not have the experimental mod take priority over the normal connection, especially running over a third party relay. Wouldn't it make sense for it to fail over to IPv6 if 4 doesn't work?

The problem with SNS is that most proper servers won't have it, because it requires running the full GUI Steam client to function, which is impractical on a proper headless server.

Not really. Almost all real word systems that have IPv6 implementation try IPv6 before IPv4. Including browsers, the socket open() when using a hostname in operating systems etc.

When they have proper implementations, sure. But this isn't a proper implementation, it's a mod running through a random user's own relay. You see the concern there?

Not really honestly. It's a mod.

My isp doesn't have ipv6

I needed it for something before they didn't do it

It's not an experimental mod, but ok XD

I thought it was still in the "iron out all the issues" phase? (hearing that 2nd hand though)

You can disable it from Mod Settings to perform IPv4 only. Currently it does not have a preference for IPv4 over IPv6 as those that wanted the mod use it as they prefer IPv6.

No it's been available for months and it's been used thousands of times to perform IPv6 connections. Resonite has some kinks, but they do not apply to Neos.

It's not really for people with good IPv4, Neos works well under IPv4 without it. It's mainly driven at those who have terrible IPv4 and good IPv6.

If you add it to a headless, it will allow those with bad IPv4 an option to connect w/ having to use LNL Direct IP through Logix

Is there any way to change my Neos username

You'll need to email hello@neos.com I believe

Alrighty

I’ve noticed that when I migrated from Neos this meowning it used the usernames of my contacts as they were in Neos and not what they’ve been changed to in Resonite.

I’m hoping it resolves itself after a day or two but if not guess I’ll do this’s

But don't we want people with good IPv4 to run this mod so those who have no IPv4 can join their sessions, be it headless or just individual users? A bigger pool of sessions able to be joined.

Using the tunnel broker you recommended me to use, with a server in a different country. I would dig not needing to toggle the mod to off every time I join a session, and then toggle it on every time I host a public session. Unless it tried IPv6 as a last resort for at least my own client.

This Is A Resonite Limitation Not A Neos Problem

what

This here is the Neos TG Channel.

I think Margo is trying to get their neos username changed. But I could be reading into it wrongly.

yes and?

yes

I mean it all depends, I mean as we know from the hermit levels, ~75% of users remain in private worlds. Their friend pools or people they hang out with already can connect with them, so IPv6 is moot. If you host public worlds or join worlds from members of the JP community, the IPv6 mod could benefit those connecting to you, or you yourself.

JP community as an example, but many Asian countries have limited IPv4, so IPv6 can benefit users from there

i bet 2024 will be an amazing year for crypto projects.
and neos should use this opportunity thoroughly.

i want these as a ncr holder
1. stake and all the promise to be realized
2. new roadmap showing its full potential (Karel's version)
3. investment and marketing plans
4. Great CTO for Froox's replacement

neos users have left, but still its way better than the other metaverse projects. We still have chance to thrive.

thanks

So stake doesn't mean much to me because I don't understand it. Can one of the crypto people explain the concept to me?

Like y'all are hella hyped for it so I imagine it's a big deal

I don't think this will be possible without a functioning platform, and a fancy web UI is, frankly, not a VR platform.

I am not a crypto people, but I'll take a stab at it:

There are two basic mechanisms that most cryptocurrency projects use to try and prevent bad actors from manipulating the network: proof of work and proof of stake.

Proof of work is what people mean when they talk about 'mining'. Everyone does the work, uploads their proof, and an incentive is randomly assigned. Because everyone who participates must do some level of computing work, it makes it difficult to spam the network with bad data. (this has been criticized as being environmentally unfriendly and a lot of the major blockchains have moved away from it with the notable exception of Bitcoin)

The other method is staking. That is when you essentially put an amount of money in escrow in order to participate in the network. The idea is that it is still costly to try and spam the network with bad data because each node costs money. Essentially, by paying to verify a node, you receive some of the token each time the network does some work on your verified node, rather than submitting the work and hoping you get lucky.

In the context of NCR, we're an ETH-20 token and not a unique blockchain, so staking in this context is less about verifying transactions and more a tactic to try and limit the liquid supply and drive up price. E.G. we will pay you interest to commit to not spending your NCR for X amount of time. In traditional finance this would be something like a Certified Deposit. Though it is worth noting in the context of a CD that capital is often used by the bank in order to try and invest to make back that interest obligation.

I think I get it. Cool. Thank you!

It makes sense why they're excited about it. Especially if they still have a wallet full of NCR

This Is A Dead Project

Buttsteaking

But staking**

Has project shuffled off the mortal coil? 😢

The project is very much alive and far from dead, and it's nice to see that some people here are recognizing the exciting possibilities that lie ahead, despite the challenges we are currently addressing.

We will be working on some form of formal roadmap as I understand that it’s important for our community to be informed and to make sure we stay on the track with our vision.

You can expect to see staking as a key update early next year. Possibly around first week of January. We'll confirm the exact launch date closer to the time.
For now we have some small teasers from Cooper’s Planet in production which we will share soon and also more updates on the UI will follow😊

Will any of the existing platform content be available via this new client that is in development? And what do you think is the ETA before it will be usable? As the current Unity client on both Steam and the website has a critical security exploit and thus shouldn't be used by anyone now.

As talking about staking is odd for a platform that now has almost no users and no (safely) usable client.

The safety updates are unlikely to come to the current neos client on steam. There's the webp lib and there's another one found shortly after I believe, don't remember what that one was called.

People ripped the lib from reso and slapped it into neos, it worked, the reso devs knew it would work, they also knew about half of the community they wanted were on neos they didn't go an inch out of their way to tell them that there was a security issue until several people asked about it, at a time when there was someone being malicious towards neos and reso, (altering their packet data from their client to appear as invisible and using that to delete stuff, mess with stuff with the devs unable to stop them)

Then when someone else compiled the webplib from reso to neos to distribute instead of the blob from reso, the community gave them a weird amount of shit for it. I still don't really understand why.

The person who compiled the lib said several times to the moderators and former neos devs that they should do a ping about with some fixes since the community they claim to care for is vulnerable to these issues. Myself and others said the same and kept the issue present on the discord for a while just to try to let people know.

The former devs and the mods did nothing to help. These are the people with the keys to neos on steam.

That's just one thing but remember they didn't even update the YouTube downloader exe and that's just swapping out one exe for another. No work involved.

Karel or whoever at neos isn't 100% clean there either. The downloadable installer could have been updated by swapping out the files in the installer (a little hacky but it should work). Efforts to get the information should have been done since the steam account was made but whatever. My point is the people who could have easily applied the update, or at least actually tell people about it on the discord, didn't bother and didn't appear to care.

However there is still a niggle that's annoying me, the money doesn't add up. The only way I see some things making sense is if the developers didn't take a paycheck in Fiat money, instead likely taking some NCR which Karel has said on the discord isn't money under tax law. Just to argue that they were not actually paid money in an attempt to claim the code from neos (now resonite) is theirs and theirs alone. (Look at prime saying he'll take a paycheck once the whole drama was settled but refusing it before) While selling their NCR for real money and even one of the devs dad's buying 10k NCR (or was it 100k?) when it was worthless and selling it when it was worth money, a dev that is now listed as a producer for reso. Hmmm a little sus to me. Not to mention a lack of legal action (no, I do not accept just talking to your own lawyer as legal action, that's just finding out where you stand legally and what your options are)

But hey, I'm just a rando passing through, what do I know?
And to pre-empt stuff, I'm not attacking anything, I actually just want what's best for neos and looking forward to seeing what happens to it (I have my own suspicion but that's too far out there to really get into)
And in not trying to attack anyone personally.
I'm just looking at the situation and information and trying to make sense of it.

News flash: People who don't work for the company don't do work for the company

The former devs don't work for neos anymore

Why would you expect them to do work for a game they aren't a part of anymore?

Also pretty sure the devs have mentioned at some point that they were paid, but only in invoices - no contracts

And invoices do not a binding contract make

Well simple, myself and others only asked for a ping with potential solutions that we offered and the leg work had been done, for the sake of doing the right thing for people they claim to care about.

If someone needs to be paid to do the right thing, then they are the wrong people.

I have to question how you expect resigned workers to still have the keys to update the game. The fix was publicly announced on the resonite discord - they do not work for neos, and can not update it at this point

Pretty much everyone who ever used neos moved onto greener pastures at this point, and they were notified just fine because the game they're working on and the game people are now playing is being updated by the resonite devs

I thought the former devs helped by providing the sources of the fixed library?

I had never asked them to update it but they were the ones in the position to update what is claimed to be "a third party client"

I asked them to let the people on the "unofficial" neos discord know with potential solutions.

Ash has a good point

The library is publicly available

And the fix was announced publicly on the main resonite discord - to 99% of the people who used to play neos

The code was uploaded because it had to be under the original license. They did not compile it nor even (according to prime anyway) test it under neos but thought it should work regardless.

Keyword "were", since they no longer work for neos

However that code was compiled for a fix for neos yes.

So, they contributed the fix back through the library instead of at the interface level.

And you expect them - the developers who don't work for neos and have no obligation, and who currently have attracted approximately 99% of the current neos playerbase to resonite - to test it for a game that they don't work for, and the players who they currently have don't play

There's nothing stopping someone from fixing a vulnerability like this through sanitisation before it reaches the library

Wasn't this talked about like 2 weeks ago

Probably

At the time reso had not come out yet. Well not publicly anyway

This chat is a waste of time since the whole situation is pretty much over and nobody plays neos anymore /shrug

You can buy storage with NCR

Define "at the time", because the libwebp thing was very recent

Also when was the vulnerability discovered vs when Tomas left?

Even if the libwebp thing had come out before resonite, I highly doubt neos would've been able to be updated anyways because A) None of the team members work for solirax except froox, and B) Froox resigned far before the libwebp thing was known

Well that answers that question

So I fail to see how they could've fixed a vulnerability they didn't know about while being resigned from the company

Fair.
The vulnerability was discovered and disclosed before resonite was public. I'd say maybe half the beta were givin out at that stage. (That's a guess by feel, I don't have actual numbers)

A the lib was compiled and offered via the game jam people because they were still using neos for game jam since reso was not out yet.

Not compiled by the game jam people though but I think they would have if not beaten to the punch by someone else.

It still doesn't change the fact that froox wouldn't have been able to update the game due to being resigned

Like I feel like everyone loves to forget this fact, and assume that just because the devs used to do work for the game, that they still are obligated to even though they aren't employees, and the only real ""employee"" resigned some time ago

Cool.
I was only asking them to do what I felt was the morally right thing and actually disclose the issue on the neos discord.

Guess that was too much to ask. /shrug

Nothing is morally wrong with not doing work for a company you don't work for anymore :V

Well considering its been discussed over weeks..

I already told you that it was announced to 99% of the people who used to play neos

Unless like, that fact just evaporated into thin air somehow

The neos discord is locked at this point, and none of the devs work there anymore.

I am not evil simply because I don't shout into an empty room "Hey! Watch out!" when the rotting floorboard everyone got out of the way of falls down

And they aren't evil for doing the same

It's a mute point now for sure.

I meant that I asked back then before reso came out, not now. Now it's someone else's problem.

To be fair, I probably wasn't very clear that everything I was bringing up is in the long past. I wouldn't ask them to do any pings or posts now since they have their own offering available to all.

I thought there was a post of SOME kind made before Resonite came around

Also to address the NCR point - lots of people made out like bandits with NCR. There's a difference between cashing out the publicly available trading currency and being paid by the people you're working for

Everyone in the entire world saw the writing on the wall and that's why everyone cashed out so quickly - not just the devs

Sorry, ""currency"", because if even the people who got thousands of dollars out of the thing want nothing to do with it anymore, what does that actually say about the usability of it as a whole?

On the reso discord to tell people to update reso to version x, whatever number it was. And a post from the creator jam people made afterwards with a link to the updated I suppose community is the right title, dll file.