Though that's actually an extremely good mentality

Side note @IraIrick

That is an interesting chat you have in common with me, I can see why you are so much of a thinker

That is definitely one outcome. The list of solutions to a deadlock in a 50/50 founder situation is fairly short and generally includes dissolution or a buyout from the other party. It's a shame that there wasn't a 3rd party involved in the equity of Solirax with voting rights, because this would have all been solved fairly quickly.

None

I'm of mixed opinions on this. In the fields I'm interested in there is a bit of a mythology about the scale of the necessary investment for things. Often people point to endeavors like ENIAC/UNIVAC and ARPAnet to make the argument that the field required deep pockets to bootstrap it.

I think basic research is a fundamental social good. However, I am also aware that basic research is almost never industrially funded. The single really notable exception in the history of information technology was Bell Labs in the heyday of Ma Bell's monopoly. Industrial research is mostly iterative. It is exactly the sort of work that could be done without the same scale of funding by scale of application. This is in fact the gamble we made in the US electronics industry leading up to and during the space race with the Amateur Radio Service. We gave up a massive chunk bandwidth for that, but it ultimately ended up giving us the /personal/ computer.

Chip lithography is a touch nut to crack in the modern era. The modern integrated circuit is one of those things that puts a $4,000,0000 machine to shame. The equipment required to produce a competitive IC would be priced at $4,000,000,000 conservatively. Or, you could do it in your garage for ~$10k, making major steps tword democratizing the process and allowing meaningful wide scale experimentation in the space. You can probably guess what I'm more interested in :) I am not particularly exceptional, or lucky. Most people are not particularly exceptional, or lucky. I would wager we are in fact, serially stupid. But that's fine, because we don't need exceptional lucky heros when we can hide behind the mound of dead bards. :3

If your end goal requires billions of dollars in funding, then I think you should try to do it in your garage for $10k, fail, and document the whole thing online. Because then you get to do it. We don't get to have billions of dollars. Modern VR took off because some guy online managed to cobble together something cheap that utterly failed to provide anything like a good experience and then another dork who was fresh off of trying to debug aerospace positional sensors for his attempt at a amateur rocket that utterly failed to not blow up on launch combined their respective failures into the biggest failure of all: A cost effective HMD prototype without 300ms of sensor latency. Serial failures leading to parallel success.

Moonshots are cool and utterly mythic. But I can actually contribute to the process of failing in parallel. It seems historically in my interest to try and structure things so we get the largest number of people working on the problems that I am the most passionate about. For the problems that are so big they seem to require something like state funding or a multinational r&d budget.... I dunno, try it anyway and then maybe form a DAO if you give up? :P

IMO We /should/ fund project like this at a social level. And in Neos' case that is what happened, both with the Grants and the crowd funding. It also happened with the literal moonshots, which were and are a subject of facination for me to this day. It was all really cool nerd stuff with the most morally icky realpolitik at its motivational core. We are living through the reopening of those sort of cold war dynamics, and our 4 billion dollar vanity projects are now posturing at earth shattering cyberwarfare techniques rather than just the pedestrian nuclear ICBM :P

It's a serious question sometimes. I don't honestly think the strange nature of cyberwar compaires to the flirting with annihilation that the post nuclear aerospace industry represents, but I keep in mind the banality of evil and the unique power of general purpose machines to embody bad processes. $4,000,000,000 is nothing for a war machine, general purpose or otherwise. It's also notthing for nation-state level survailance. Assume every node is compromised. Develop trust-less methods of verification and hedge against a 51% attack on the consensus network. Take the idea to market, compromise to get the funding on board, or, develop out the market through the behavior shaping technologies of modern targeted advertisement.... This is the game of thrones, after all and there is no middle ground.

Which is utterly hyperbolic :3 But the scale of these things is real, and the specific abuses are enabled by that unreal stratification of access. The answer is likely complicated and ever shifting. Research needs a diversity of approaches to get those sudden leaps. So we build what we can when we can with what we have for the deeply held reasons we have. We keep working that way until something happens that is so extreme it changes the whole landscape of the industry.

My bet is, after the sudden technological landslide, we'll find the emergency response teams will be mostly supported by amateur rocketeers and HAM radio operators :3

None

I have a plan but it is going to require a huge amount of initial investment but the payoff will be measured in 100s of billions, potentially more than 10 measures

And what the fuck am I supposed to do with that kind of money? XD
Buy nice things?
No.
I will MAKE my nice things. Cheaply!
No... There is really nothing just one guy like me can do with that kind of money... EXCEPT pour 99% of it ALL into scientific and technological progress

It's kind of a moral obligation to me. I see techbros in sillicon money pouring billions of dollars and 1000s of hours into the STUPIDEST projects, they cant see that there is an alternative path to achieve those same things without risking the entire of society as we know it

So someone has to do what they want to do but better or we are all fucked.

Why not align my passion for creation with my moral obligations?

Only way Im getting to that point is to try to make as much money as possible as ethically as possible so I can build bigger and better things, get a company valued worth billions then sell most of it and rake in the dividends and let someone else build upon the foundations I built, rinse, and repeat even bigger.

As for million dollar machines... Im familiar with CNC machinery that is worth millions, and hard to replicate. Only thing I can do is build it cheaper, which again, is moral obligation. I believe in fair and equal opportunity for all which means no stupid barriers to entry and I can just throw the corporate sausages to the hounds at auctions for my businesses so potential threats know that they can still get ahead and letting me grow prefab businesses is good for them.

As for serially stupid, we are human.

As for failure? Thats what money is for. You need to do what you can do and not fail at to make sure you are still gaining money even when your fuckups cost millions. You can only fail so many times before you succeed!

And what do investors care? My mother company will be private and profitable to keep me green. My startups wont be exposed to investors until after I failed so many times at what others don't have the balls to even try due to risk factor that I end up succeeding, then doing it better each time until sale nets me massive gains. I tried and failed so they dont have to. Then I increase my threshold for how much I can safely fail because of the cash flow.

Its those failures that will fail their way to success that truly drive humanity forwards.

As for where to start I'd rather start at what will cost $20k and succeed at doing it for $2k

And you're right. Working together makes for larger successes! :3

And, also, Im not settling for anything less than a colony on a gas giant's moon.

Cant get that far into space without a few moonshots! :3

Im happy for your optimism 😊

Also, very true

Also. Life is short.

1. Genetic engineering and synthetic organic technology can fix that

2. If you dont let your ambitions run wild and think sstrategically to figure out how to make the unlikely possible, and go for it, you might die having never had the chance to make your dreams a reality.

I will die in space but I will make damn sure I leave a bright future for those who come after me and if they waste it by the Gods I will haunt them until they live up to the true potential we have as conscious beings capable of thinking about things greater than ourselves that we can become a part of.

No one person will ever be great alone but if we aim for greatness we can become a part of the greatness we all share. We made it up until now and we can make it greater still

Karel check dm.

wen

moon

Karel

None

进群拿白
http://oelinks.co/unxpvqw

Isn't there the third party VC, or am I not understanding that?

I'm still reading the posts above and they're great. On the topic of if Neos itself needs special funding or "needs" its crypto integration, I think it's a more compelling argument that the users need or benefit from it more than the devs themselves. Atleast those're my feelings.

I've been asked "when's the last time you've needed to actually use crypto" and mu answer has always been "all the time really". I've used it to send money to friends where paypal won't allow me, my gf uses it to buy hormones, and I use it to buy rare game steam keys from Russian sites selling them where my CC isnt accepted

If you really believe in a real metaverse someday, can't you imagine ingame analogues to situations like these? I would like to be able to borderlessly tip players ingame with NCR for being nice, maybe I'd want to buy something from another player that isn't allowes on an officiap Neos store for whatever reason, like a limited run avatar item? And I think Neos should open and connect with external VR game platforms someday, and that's something I think is way easier when players can exchange a token with actual value with each other and not government currencies or use a payment processor. The idea to me is that someone can be considered a citizen of the net and accept a currency native to the net, and not be geoblocked like with what we see threatening to happen in the world now

also I just woke up so dunno if im making any sense

when I also ask why, if someone doesn't like crypto, they can't just ignore it, I've yet to get a compelling answer aside from "the people involved are scammers" and "the concensus algorithms don't work into my political (usually socialist) feelingd when extrapolated out far enough"

the latter argument, I don't see why someone feeling that way couldn't still ignore crypto. They can define their interaction in Neos themself. If an item os tied to an NFT in Neos, whats stopping them from still copybotting the item and using it? The person with the NFT has the satisfaction of feeling their hat is official, while the other party gets to use the hat however they want with their community.

I just don't see how both members of the community couldn't be happy aside from one side has brainworms that prevents them from accepting a group of people find decentealized digital ownership compelling

Ive bought groceries with them a few times.

And banks here are terrible. Crypto is way faster

Have you used the non-steam version? You can already send NCR to anyone in the game with no fees but I'd wait until Karel gets himself his own fork

yeah, I do, and its a feature I really like. Also further illustrates how easily one can ignore crypto if they want

and in that consideration the people on the discord don't just want to avoid crypto, they want YOU to not have it. So who is right in that kind of agreement?

I know right? We are the ones who have something to lose if they dont like crypto. They have nothing to lose by us minding our own business. Crypto saved my ass a few times I couldnt pay my rent because the financial system here is garbage, but crypto got me instant cash at an ATM when money wasnt even arriving into my normal bank account.

I believe those annoying spammers selling trash NFTs are partially to blame.

its this emotional and unfair debate on the discord that I believe led to these problems

That's a really defeatist attitude

Just remember: the devs could easily propose a solution where they take care of the token holders and manage NCR themselves, but they are willfully choosing not to and throwing them to the wolves.

People hating crypto in general I mean.

The NFT spammers may have influenced that. Unsustainable tokens with bad mining protocols too. But most of all... The fact that miners hogged all the GPUs and drove the price up of something many of us NEED which is NOT a speculative asset. (Though speculation had very little to do with it and I don't think good cryptocurrency is a speculative asset, though you can speculate with it as you can with everything. People speculate over coffee.)

We have voices

They have ears

Talking is a great way to solve problems

so yeah I think the greater debate is at play and has created this situation where disolution of their partnership with Karel comes with the sacrifice of many people's financial wellbeing.

when it doesn't need to

keeping an angry community happy is driving decision making I believe

The team dont care. A fork may be the best option if Karel can

A. Not resolve this through discussion with eachother with a team of mediators (not lawyers)

B. Secure the right to fork

C. Find new devs

I support legal measures but obviously its a sticky situation and we dont have all the information

Was this before or after it was changdd

a ToS isn't bulletproof, atleast not in US courts.

I dont remember that bit...

Anyway as I said. I'm happy to try to resolve this through open discussion

Terms of Service and things like this dont give you legal precedent to do whatever the heck you want. They have never been bulletproof. They don't safeguard you from running a scam.

I don't see how thr Howey test matters when they sold something for a purpose for over 4 years then wish to drop support of it

thats a scam, plain and simple, and a document does not protect a scam.

I think youre all optimistically thinking that if you say a few sentences on your website, you can run a scam.

They told people it would be used in a Neos store, did they not?

Then to take all those funds and then not deliver on an obligation means legal action is in order. And if they cannot pay the investors back, then guess what? bankruptcy. Then we become the owners of Neos.

and dont take my word for it, ProbablePrime himself called NCR buyers their "investors"

When?

So I absolutely, 100% think this should go in front of a judge, and I also expect Neos would lose a case like that.

in November, in a meeting

before all this stuff. Would he ever use that word now? Of course not.

a terms of service you agree to does not make you immune to legal recourse. Definitely look this up.

Like people here being so silly, assuming I can run a scam but if I put a few sentences on my website I'm free from legal recourse

Like what the heck do you guys think they sold then, huh?

What happens to everything if they lose? Who become in charge? Who handles development?

you can try to wiggle about and word salad it any way you want, but they were selling a product and funding their business on it.

Look up Bitconnect. They ran a similar scam. They are under investigation and the case against them is taken very seriously. Hell, even social media influencers are being held liable.

and honestly it doesnt matter what you think. Thats why we have judges.

So there was nonexpectation for NCR to have monetary value in a store for the game? No expectation for that huh?

you are being a clown.

For me, its never been about money. Its about not letting them get away with a scam

every ICO whitepaper in existence says that. It is not at all legally binding or bulletproof.

true, though its a vague distinction what that means and he could argue by upholding the value of his token, he's managing funding the company and its development

THE BEST SOLUTION HERE IS TO FORK

We want NCR to use as was promised. In the marketplace. Jobs in Neos. A Metaverse economy. We were told what it was and what it will be. If that gets abandoned, they will lose that lawsuit.

People have been sued for less. Accepting money. Promising people a game. Game doesnt happen so sued.

If I made you sign a document saying that I would be immune from legal action for snorting a mountain of cocaine in your house...

Am I immune from you calling the cops on me and going to jail? No I am not.

Cocaine is illegal. So is fraud.

Neos needs to at least make a minimum amount of effort at implementing the roadmap that was outlined for NCR.

at best, atleast I cpuld see that argument

Keep in mind the SEC considers crypto to be a security therefore it is an investment therefore, Neos need to make an effort to deliver what they offered to tokenholders.

I mean hey if they can sue Sega over the Aliens game being lower quality than promised, lmao

and I think they'll quickly dismiss that argument and get into the actual facts about the case.

returns of money, or development of their store that they promised?

Shareholders can sue over being mislead with false expectations. SEC considers crypto a security. We were given a roadmap so the roadmap is the minimum that needs to legally be followed.

You seem to have A LOT of faith in written terms of service.

sorry terms and agreements

but whatever, this is something for a judge to look at

they're largely in NCR, the game's own native token

which was attacked by its own devs and community

But you cannot just abandon it.

Imagine if a company told its shareholders "screw you, do with your shares what you want, they are not part of the company anymore! Sure you lost value but you still have them! Oh you want our company to associate with your shares? Get lost!"

exactly. People have been sued for much more slight missteps. Don't anyone here let them get you to believe they know a damn about what a judge would think about an obvious scam.

um Froox literally propose he and his cohorts abandon NCR.

So I wont go to jail of I snort cocaine in your house because you signed a document where I said I could?

the discord is literally proposing NCR be removed and made into Karel's 3rd party plugin

you have alot of catching up to do.

in an announcement on Discord. He said he was proposing he and his devs disassociate with it and let ot be Karel's problem.

And no, Im not interested in arguing semantics with you.

um youre leaving out part of the announcement, lol.

At this point you are playing with words. Yes Froox never wrote the word abandon but it is implied

He's purposefully leaving out the part where he says his company would no longer deal with it.

These guys are often disingenuous and play with words and mental gymnastics, and usually emerge when the narrative here diverges too far from the one established on discord.

Its a common tactic to get your opponent to need to rehash old arguments for you to distract from new conversations.

so Karel developed NCR and implimented it into Neos?

I didn't know Karel was a coder, and didn't know he actually developed a small part of Neos.

3rd party would imply as much

Rest assured though that I'd love to join a class action where all the developers get to keep their roles but the balance of power is shifted to NCR holders securing a portion of ownership, and I'd love to do my best to make Neos succeed! I was using Neos before I ever even heard of NCR so I actually do care about the platform but if leadership all act the way they do... Perhaps they need some better management, of which Im sure you will find many NCR holders have experience in.

Im NOT suggesting a DAO... That's just compensation that doesn't ruin the project financially 😊

"We will no longer provide first party support ourselves and at the same time we will not be further involved with any NCR related decisions and actions."

there. The part DIRECTLY AFTER what you posted.

So, you know who the courts would favour. The guy putting in the hard manual labour for what was promised.

Im not saying I condone his actions. Im just saying. He is looking good to the courts.

as if I should even bother, but I dont feel like letting you be disingenuous this time.

Deals can always be made 😊

they could literallu snapshot NCR and issue a replacement to all holders and then manage it themselves without Karel entirely. Its another common lie that "karel controls the keys so we cant do anything"

He is looking pretty bad compared to NCR holders, for sure, but less bad than the rest of the the team.

my NCR holding is very small, like people would be confused as to why I care about this so much.

I did suggest that but it was shot down. We'd have the upper hand.

the way I see it, Froox's side should have to weather two lawsuits, one from his cofounder and pending that, another from thr defrauded NCR holders.

We could class action this if the devs continue to shoot NCR down.

snapshot the distribution of NCR, and then redisttibute the same amount to those holders a new currency eith whatever feature they wanted.

It used to be argued that " we need to throw the holders under the bus in the future because Karel controls the keys to NCR" but either they are very ignorant of all things blockchain (despite often claiming they are well versed) or they are misleading their communtity and hoping no one would notice so they can drop responsibility.

We can still class action as we are affected negatively

it wouldnt screw them over

it would be in their favor

Away forward would be us winning a portion of ownership

lol well the old one would cease to have value, is how these things typically go

what are you saying? Froox never proposed snapshotting NCR.

In his tweet he stated that they would have nothing to do with it. They said they wanted to boot karel and implied he'd be taking NCR with him when he left, and directly said it would become a third party thing not associated with Neos.

Aka abandonment

yeah, and ETH did it too (ETH classic) and I think a fork will be neccessary when ETH transotions to PoS consensus with eth2

The way forward would be us winning the right to create one ourselves and shape the future of Neos

Thats also bad. Never had anything to do with. Could be argued that it was all a sham.

Ill not try to argue semantics with you, I dont wanna play that game where a very clear abandone development proposal is "not really" or whatever

Could be for a judge to decide

I have no literal clue. Revenge?

they would make part of their community happy with an anti-crypto W, they would get to drop obligation to have to develop those related features

Karel did a lot of nasty stuff to them, definitely plenty of motive to stomp all over his baby he was so proud of. He even called it that.

I heard rumors of coordinated selloffs too but nothing confirmed

If they've already internally decided to abandon NCR, they have no reason to not disparage and harm it financially too, specially when it only hurts Karel at that point.

right? but they care more about outing Karel than working with him and getting paid.

so maybe theyre doing quite well.

Afaik they have all refused tp send invoices for their work, as ot would damage their chance at outing their CEO

they are a startup and not a profitable one until very recently when NCR exploded? They were all volunteers. The moment the company warchest grew to support salaries, the volunteers decided they wanted Karel out

It was already self sustaining a bit before the hype

yeah but def not enough to support some 12 tech salaries and neos maintenance

thats like right around when Neos started breaking down internally.

indeed, arguments neither of us are fully privy to

but we have vague ideas what they were.

For the reference, there is not an awful lot of profit in adding liquidity to the pool. But what it does do is make sure a token can handle growth and it indicates forward thinking...

But its enough to piss off people who wanted their salary and have no issue of abandoning a security asset under their platform who said it was never theirs to begin with. I know a number of them held NCR. Has anyone checked etherscan? Do we know the team's wallets? Due to legal action between them and karel they should be forced to disclose their wallet addresses.

If they sold before the announcement, that opens uo suspicion of insider trading given the SEC considers it a security.

Was the announcement close to the time liquidity was added?

there's some misconceptions about the funds btw, where the minting address was being given ETH and ETH's value was rising

Then ETH's value fell by about half

but on the discord people like to claim the value fell by that amount because of buybacks

I dont know I just know froox complained about karel adding liquidity instead of paying them in one of his tweets

while there's some truth to that, no one mentions that most of the value loss culprit was ETH having peaked around november.

I never saw this tweet from Froox, I would like to see it though

Reminder that lack of liquidity means you cant trade with it, transfer it, buy it or sell it. Not keeping liquidity growth increasing with trading volume growth would be tremendously irresponsible.

You ever heard of a rug pull scam? The developers sell off their holdings and pull liquidity meaning everyone is stuck with their tokens and they cant be sold or moved or traded, they just sit there impossible to use.

But I guess the team care more about getting paid than doing the complete opposite of a rug pull.

We actually have a good chance of class actioning ourselves a small piece of overship over the company.

With karel and frooxius too busy butting heads to lead the company forwards, it could be very good for the future of Neos if some of us take up enough of a say to resist stagnation due to internal conflict and puts us in a position to represent the community and listen to their voices and actually work in favour of their interests! Because some of us are PART of those communities

We can make sure that things tip towards the one who is the most right and the least wrong when these things happen and we can take the best of both parties in line with our own community concensus

Who actually wants what is best for the userbase in this situation? Probably both of them each in their own way. Who is really in the wrong here? Also probably both of them.

The question is what achieves the best results? The best overall outcome? For everyone?

None

I will not pretend the tokenomics were handled well as there are many factors I don't fully understand

but also most people judging Karel's actions seem to do so in hindsight, as at the time no one knew what top ETH would put in (as in it could have been very good for the company to not sell right away) but also Karel did not know Froox would make so many damaging annoincements that cratered the value of NCR in such a surprisingly hostile and irresposible manner.

we can call it propping up a bubble, but no, because it became a bubble following the malicious actions of devs and a toxic community that sought to create this outcome out of spite, not natural market profit taking.

Don't let them gaslight you into believing this is just "how crypto is" or proof of whatever narrative they want to push.

As far as the crypto stuff goes, I'm on Karel's side. Karel could have handled his social interactions a bit better though and so could some of the devs, with 2 devs in particular still learning how to better handle social interactions with users of the platform but in a minority of isolated cases was it sub-par.

In future of course Neos is likely to take on staff who specialise in customer service and public relations, as they grow economically, we should see more and more of a professional standard coming from the team's interaction with eachother and the public

Gotta make understanding allowances and give them room to grow.

NCR's ICO has been a foundational part of the planned Neos revenue model for years and many of the volunteers working on it joined after this was clearly established via the whitepaper. Many of these volunteers also heavily profited from NCR during the boom knowing that they would intentionally tank the value after formulating a hate campaign against Karel.

They were never anti-NCR, they were anti-Karel because the furry fandom has a long history of edging out people who aren't a part of their cult and they refused to acknowledge his position as CEO after he fired Nexulan, hired Andrea, and drafted the 2022 roadmap. They then began disseminating tabloid-level shock pieces like "Karel locked Froox in the house and forced him to code" in order to emotionally manipulate people into buying into their victimization and paint Karel like a bad person to the investors and userbase. This take-over situation has been in the works for a long time and I personally refuse to buy into it - which is why I have and will continue to support Karel.

None

If you have evidence I encourage you to collect it. If there is no evidence, it does no good to spread that information, in fact it does harm to the NCR cause as it becomes ammo for more attacks.

And personally without evidence I can neither believe nor disbelieve

Are you going to say hello?

have we met?

I saw you join the group

Nice to meet you

I did yes

Welcome

The Howey Test is for determining whether a particular investment is a "security" under US law. It's not relevant here. You can still sue for fraud and misrepresentation, which are the relevant claims in this instance.

Also lol at the argument that "Froox/devs never did anything on NCR so can't be liable." That's the entire point! They DIDNT do anything on NCR despite explicit representations by the company (which is Karel AND Froox) of how NCR utility/in-game economy would be developed. And when Karel finally pushed for it, they try to kick out NCR as a third party token, breaking those promises. Clear case of fraud/misrepresentation. Securities laws have nothing to do with it.

Tired of the ignorant legal takes from the discord.

The people with gold names in Discord are volunteers without contracts and if an agreement is never reached, Karel is entirely within his rights to hire contracted developers to replace them. I would argue that he's actually obligated to for the preservation of the company, maintaining value for the token holders, and forward momentum of Neos - even if it means having to re-write certain code modules from scratch. This deadlock cannot last ad infinitum. Karel is the person with control of the Ethereum wallets and has the means to move Neos forward with or without the existing volunteers. They've had more than enough opportunity to reach an amicable solution since ceasing development in early November, but I feel that their window will be expiring in the near future.

karel continues to promote Neos as seen on twitter

Maybe I should send Karel my CV

Karel check dm...

https://twitter.com/VRChat/status/1517231256786055169?t=lGJbepSdQUKRSCG-qTUI3A&s=19

Every day more update for competitor, none for NCR. Need resolution now

every day more projects in the sector that neos has 8 years of advantage: b

VR chat is not a competitor. Completely different concept.

VRchat is a social platform

Neos is a metaverse engine, games like VRchat are able to be produced in it, and a fully functioning social platform already exists on it, its basically a social metaverse engine. Produce whatever you want within it and let it loose on the metaverse as its integrated by default

VRchat provides a better and more stream lined social user experience. People are initially looking for social interactions and experiences. And some eventually get drawn into creation.

90% of people using metaverses are not going to be creators or developers they will be consumers.

You can create for VRchat but you do that via unity, which is a game engine. Neos is its own engine.

VRchat competes for users, but with Neos, we will see things much better than what VRchat can offer. Since as more features are added to Neos the more you can do with the engine. Make a game, a simulator, a social space, a workplace, a university, offer goods and services.

If anything it is unity that is the competitor

And of course, you can be a consumer directly in Neos. Its for consumers and developers

Neos in it's current state is not consumer friendly.

Reactant say he move to vrchat platform. It is competitor.

So you can get your ideas shipped directly to consumers / consumers get stuff shipped directly to them

It will take the marketplace for it to truly unleash that aspect though.

And you are right, Neos has room for improvement in user-friendliness.

Since you can develop in Neos, I've been putting together some plans to take user-friendliness into my own hands so if you have any suggestions please send them my way

Vrchat is competitor, if you decline this. You know nothing of metaverse today.

As I said, it will take the marketplace for it to really take off. Rocket fuel for Creator's Ambitions right there. And if you get deep into the community you would not believe some of the content that's already out there circulating semi-privately

The UI/UX needs a major overhaul for one.

It is only a competitor for one aspect

Good thing custom UI is possible and not as hard as you'd expect 😊

Still challenging but that can be improved on still

Every user on vrchat could be a neos user

Telling people to get onto metaverse is hard, having better platform for people interested in metaverse easier

Logix and components are super fun to work with once you get over the learning curve. I much prefer it to other systems, though it is missing some things and I've had to get janky to get around this.

Indeed

This is such a bad take. Custom UI is possible but that doesn't fix the fact that bad UI/UX drives away users.

That is where Neos has its potential.

Until someone fixes it

The learning curve is the issue. You shouldn't have to learn how to develop and code in Neos just to have a basic UI/UX is should be good from the get go

If team does not make compromise soon. This is wasted

Neos has edge but every day it gets smaller

Which could be a user or a dev. Its just harder to get the content to users early if its not natively integrated.

This is where Id love to see a simple menu in the default UI for easily tailoring the UI by browsing through top rated user content that adds UI and controls / interaction.

So if you dont like the UI or you want to improve your user experience interacting with the platform, 2 click fix.

Thats the Idea

The reason VRchat is successful is because the learning curve it has is extremely minimal for using the actual product. Neos has an issue where is designed by devs for devs and not for users.

Could be part of the marketplace Karel though definitely needs to show the top 3 free User created UI and interfacing solutions right at the top

Of course improving the UI and usability for new users to begin with is what gets more people making all kinds of different options based on a wide variety of User preferences

Not denying that, I'm just saying it can improve if Neos makes it easy to access that content from the start as well as making it easier to create your own set up and put it out there

You're all jumping ahead to a market place, but the reality is you need the basic product to be viable first.

the project grows day by day... we all know that the problem is that Froox accepts a cryptocurrency called NCR in which the community invested to enjoy the platform and have a store of value tied to the project... the support was the Froox project and Karel... now if Froox is a mercenary and wants to keep all the income from the platform for himself....

Im already making plans. The tricky part, as a Creator, is getting my own solutions seen by new users as quickly as possible so they dont have to struggle or actively search for it first

You're not grasping the core concept. The problem is that you have to create your own solutions. When the issue is that the product is not user friendly out of the box.

Imagine buying an iphone and having to choose an app on an app sorry to make a phone call.

Not a problem for me since I enjoy doing so.

But you're right.

Thats the hard part I mentioned.

I want to try to make my solution as out of the box as possible.

We are not talking about you. We are talking about new users both to Neos, and to VR in general.

What Im saying is I want to fix exactly that :V

So you're making a solution users have to search for or are you saying you are volunteering to design and simplify the base UX/UI for Neos?

This is exactly what I have been saying. I talk to a lot of people about Neos and you would be surprised how many people have tried it and quit after a couple days because "the UI is dog shit".

I want to try to figure out how to make it so that it gets seen quickly and they dont have to search for it.

One of many Ideas I'd love to simply have implemented natively.

Of course giving easy access to the solutions of others with my own would mean that there is something for everyone's preferences, which they nay have to technically search for if they are looking for something different to mine, but they would not have to hunt. It could be all in one place just 2 clicks away

That is the issue, yes.

If my own UI were the default UI, you would see in your main menu a nice big button that shows people they have easy access to whatever meets their preferences. That takes the difficulty out of it.

Your first 2 minutes in Neos it would be presented right there for you

I'd of course like to make it so that my UI was so easy to use people wont need anything else but I accept everyone is different and what is easy for one person may be hard for another and vice versa

Everyone has different preference and customisability is key, hence putting it all within easy reach

I don't think you can add the changes I am referring to they need to be made at the development level Like having a separate tab exclusively for avatars and instead of saving it to your inventory. Or using basic universal icons that are intuitive instead of green plus signs and lightning bolts. And simplifying the settings menu to have multiple tabs to make it easier to use.

It's not just the UI that needs a change it's the UX.

Neos is a metaverse engine so I'd really love to embrace the concept of the metaverse, and give people the ability to have whatever kind of experience they want. Make everything fluid and flexible. Adaptable but resilient from the start.

For now, I can try to get as close to that as possible.

And that's fine. But that is way too advanced a concept for 90% of users

They need simplicity and intuitiveness in their first hours or they drop it.

Hence consolidating it all into an easy, user friendly and seamless experience

Indeed

Id try to make mine as close to that as possible but I do personally love advanced features, but that wouldn't be the default. But right there for those who want it.

Cool so you're going to add a publish world button to the sessions tab or is it going to still be the asinine process of spawning an item then a world orb and placing to orb on a pedestal and pressing submit?

Because it sounds like your talking about simplifying the facade of the UI. I'm talking about simplify the UX which the UI is a part of.

Ive been fiddling around with world logix, it should theoretically be possible, though without native support I'd need to do something kinda janky but for the user, that would all be in the background, except for the part where you're teleported to a different world and back to publish it, but I do hope for the native support needed to not have to do janky stuff like that as fun as it is to work around the limitations of a system at times.

I mean UI and UX, just janky solutions to the latter until I can either get native support or find someone who can write a plugin and get it published to do that stuff more seamlessly

This is the part you're not grasping. We are talking about changing the native UI. We are talking about things that need to be addressed on the developer side. Not things a user can duct tape over

Sad but true but I can at least do what I can and hooe it triggers something good to happen developer side

Or get myself hired 😊

I think the better course of action would be to hire a professional UI\UX developer with a few years of experience rather than to head hunt in the community.

No offense

I mean they would be able to do more than me in the development side of things. But they would do well to also hire people with vision, creativity and ambition to drive the engine of progress. From personal experience, it can be challenging to churn out Ideas when you are having to focus on developing them alone one by one. That's where teamwork comes in! :D

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's not how these things work.

Having good designers and team thinkers is very important

That's why a professional UI/UX is the best course of action

Who isn't a Neos user

So they can immediately see the issues a new user is going to run into

VR has nothing to do with it

In my original field, it often is how things work. One person works on design and lays out CAD schematics and another follows those schematics and produces them. And having someone who is experienced more than one field and at least well honed in others works wonders for directing a project.

Also Neos users can certainly see the issues new users run into. No one can see all issues alone so that is where it is important to be able to both step into the perspectives of others and also listen to the users when they highlight issues not previously observed, and then examine that from the user's perspective and again from their own in order to devise solutions that meet the needs of the users and give them a product they are happy with

The problem is Neos users don't understand the issues. Because Neos users don't hear from users who quite after a few hours and never look back. They don't go to the discord, and they don't look up YouTube tutorials. They just leave They just go "this is janky unintuitive dogshit" and go to VRchat, alt-space or the other dozen social VR apps.

Which is where it helps to be able to step into their perspective

I spend a lot of my time litterally just being the first point of contact for new users. I'm pretty well aware of what portions of the UI are poorly designed :P

I'd be interested in hearing those

The number one reason people tell me they leave Neos is the mentors 😐

They don't like being confronted with someone while they are initially trying figuring something out or they found someone extremely off-putting who jumped in.

The inventory is literally just terrible, the settings are a visually confusing mess, contacts has virtually no UI hinting, which is a continuous theme across the board. The world browser is alright, but could use more discoverability features. At the moment, honestly, the world browser is the only bit of the curernt UI I'd consider worth keeping and itterating on XD

The proper UI/UX for a new user should be able to get them acquainted with basical movement and navigation. Get them into a selection of basic starter avatars and and. A basic understanding of a simple to understand and easy to use menu

I agree

The radial menu is fine, I guess, but we need some guides about extending it.

The MTC needs to be completely trashed

Hmm. That's much less a UI and UX issue but hey I'll give it some thought. There could be a system for that. I'd almost suggest a basic AI assistant but dont want a repeat of paperclip guy, lmao.

Also mentors can be helpful and I'd not want to replace them but perhaps an intermediary solution can be devised that isnt intrusive and annoying but makes sure an answer to your questions is always in easy reach, with some artificial intelligence to give some gentle guidance while also not blocking access to help by assuming that it has given you the answers you seek either because its a computer and it doesnt "get it" or that the answer has already been given and if you havent gotten the answer you are looking for it just needs to search harder and take you on the merry go round of the "does this answer your question" loop :V

Expert systems are just annoying across the board to most users.

Oh I know right? I hate that. That should be more configurable but still give some default function that makes sense and wont keep triggering on accident.b

Really useful if you understand the system you are engaging with, but not a good tutorial resource.

Or because it absolutely is a user experience issue. The first environment should not be accessable by anyone else. And no an AI is just dumb. Just design a tutorial that is simple to follow and interactive. That educates the bare basics of navigating and using the revamped UI ending on choosing avatars

Thank you, added to my personal notes

Everything else can be learned later on when they are exposed to it by other users. The on-boarding process should not be complicated.

I think what's needed isn't created yet. But the MTC and)or having another player pop in on you is just bad

That isn't remotely true

I prefer it honestly. I'd like to keep community focused on-boarding as the general on-boarding strategy, but I'd much prefer that our developer resources be provided as comprehensive documentation.

That's mostly from a practicality standpoint, as the system becomes more complex we can't tutorialize or rely on oral tradition :) The basic UI functions can probably be handled by a better designed tutorial flow, the current one is flashy but it's just bullet points.

I do think that can be done better, and I do think it's important that someone feel like they have a good enough grasp over system settings, inventory management and locomotion before they're going to feel on even footing in any case.

I have the same Idea. Big emphasis on Avatars. Hoping to really overhaul Avatars in general, even messaged the developers about it, unfortunately, not all of the stuff I was hoping to do with that is possible within the current system even with janky workarounds... Some stuff is planned, other stuff... Could be an easy fix with some teamwork. Gonna have to wait for that stuff as currently, to solve that requires going back and forth in blender. Not all users can do that and should not be expected to.

But as I said. Teamwork would make that an easy fix its just a bit of math built into the engine really.

See this is the issue. New users don't want a complicated experience. They down want a crash course in game development. Like I said 90% of the people in the Metaverse are not interested in development. The basic user needs to have their basic needs met without all the complicated bells and whistles.

I dont think the radial menu is fine. Its technically fine but I have a few ways I want to make it better so that it makes it simple for the user to interact with the system and shortcuts some thing that are currently a bit too complicated for comfort of the average user.

Expert systems?

The tutorial thing is a 101 requirement to implement properly

Yes. And currently Neos doesn't have a tutorial. It has PowerPoint presentation.

I do. Preferences are personal, but I think it's worth it to keep the culture grounded. It could be handled differently I suppose. In the fediverse this problem is addressed by the nature of each instance having a local timeline and local moderation. We don't have that.

I'm principally concerned with how to enable growth in a way that avoids an Eternal September. User adoption is therefore a high priority, but not one I'm going to see as a primary driver over onboarding flows that encourage acculturation.

What would go a very long way inuser retention is at the end of the tutorial is providing a selection of curated avatars for the user to choose from. And a variety of them.

Expert systems are AI systems that try to simulate judgments/behaviors of a subject mater 'Expert'

Mentors should aid people who are specifically looking for help. With advanced stuff.

Last time I checked it asked you if you wanted to engage with mentors and let them pop in or enter the tutorial privately?

Though the way that is implemented is really intrusive and if you know what you're there for and just want to jump in and get started it is a pain to try to get through. Even though its only a few seconds,still annoying.

Would do better as an in the corner thing instead of a forceful popup, so you can see the world is private by default but can also see that there are mentors available to help. Can be placed in such a way where it is out of the way but if you are confused and trying to understand what to do, it becomes more noticeable. But can be clearly seen either way minimalistically.

Casual relation is flipped :) Hi, I'm Irick. :P

Also Neos needs to overhaul it's graphics

That's another thing that stops growth

It needs shader support

Let me know of those changes and if I find myself in a position to do something about it I can examine that angle

It needs to allow users to disable certain things graphically

I disagree. I view it as avoiding the hard part of user on-boarding by focosing on the portions that can be automated. We do not benefit from simply leaving the scope of user onboarding to teaching the technical proficiency required for product use.

There is literally nothing nightmarish about using shaders in VRC.

Oh I wasn't aware. Maybe if the portals had buttons that can be clearly seen to toggle between public and private with some visual changes to the portal that show you which is which by contrast with the clearly labelled button?

To be honest actually it might actually be a good idea to provide a very basic tutorial and then give access to either more in depth official tutorials or access to easy to browse community tutorials with ratings and reviews?

The on-boarding process should literally just be navigation both environmental, UI and traversing to new worlds. And selecting a prefab avatar.

Added to personal notes!

After that is someone has a question they can ask any other user for help

We don't need mentors

Should be available as an option but not the only option

Why not both?

Hmmmmm.....

I am not saying that. I am saying that the focus on the product as a product rather than acknowledging the scope of the system as a network leads to obvious and well represented repercussions. Hince why I specifically mention Eternal September, or a more contemporary example: the vrchat Ugandan Knuckles explosion and subsiquent community management nightmare.

Thats a part of my Idea surrounding UI more or less 😊

Because they don't want that

Ah

It needs both an overhaul and an underhaul tbh.

I disagree. That's where it starts, sure. That's the part that does not require intervention, sure. But that's not the end of the question when ti comes to new user experience and onboarding.

No. It absolutely is. Anything after that they can ask other people for help. The mentor program should be axed

That's your opinion. My opinion is that neglecting the social aspect of a social platform is irresponsible.

I've had to tell mentors on three separate occasions to back off, while I was working on a world for advice on me and telling me what to do, when it wasn't asked for in my own world.

It's not neglecting the social aspect

The social aspect is literally talking to any other user

We don't need special mentors for that

Especially the really aggressive ones

There is a reason it doesn't have shader support. Done improperly, I could use them to brick your GPU. I'm a bit concerned by some of the abominations me and my friends have whipped up without them, which I hope we will be the only ones to ever see something like. But that's unrealistic. More important right now to keep users safe than make things look pretty but they can be implimented safely with some extensive testing.

I am not saying user created shaders. I am saying it needs to not look like garbage

#bookmark for later, useful perspectives from both of you

And how do you normalize that process? Are you unaware of the issues social enviroemnts online have with trolling, flame wars, and tacit toxicity? Reactive moderation only goes so far, onboarding is the step where you can be proactive about those issues.

Exactly this, or the most common horror story a mentor dropping furre avatar after furre avatar for a new user after being told no. This is the most common thing I hear. Nothing against furries. But not every new user is a furre or wants to be a furre they can make that decision later down the line

You underestimate people who like to break things.

I agree

On that subject. The lack of permissions and security is top priority

Oh absolutely

I can literally steal any object or creation I want from any world as long as I make an instance

Here's an idea

Don't self host it

Geenz has outlined a pretty viable method to allow for user created shaders by implimenting some cliud based dynamic analysis/fuzzing tools as part of the asset variant pieline. I'm fairly confident we'll see custom shaders eventually.

Buy some servers

Some of that was patched recently. At least partially. A friend of mine was messing with stuff, accidentally stole the universe world (LMAO) and freaked out and promptly filed a big report

Only in the metaverse can you accidentally steal the universe by poking at stuff and tinkering with it xD

Reason number 4 people leave Neos: "I don't, want people accessing my personal computer". Doesn't matter if it's a real threat or not, that's how people feel.

Hmmm...

You're average user is going to be a gamer with a headset

:P countervaliantly, I would not use Neos if it was entirely tied to some company's servers. It's a big reason I left VRChat.

Not saying it should entirely be so. Just make it an option.

You know you could use NCR to incentivise hosting headless servers and renting out headless hosting so users don't have to host it themselves

People don't want to pay money just to be in a world with more than 10 people without shitting the bed

It is with the headless client. People can join headless sessions without ever having someone else 'on their computer'.

This is the reality

Yes but servers cost money and for the short term, it is one of many options which could be implemented side by side.

And the average person isn't going to want to deal with that or understand it. They just want the option to not host on their machine

This hasn't stopped minecraft hosting services from being a rather successful thing?

Hence hosting on someone else's for NCR as one potential option.

And which one has more users?

I'm personally working with a few friends to make a system that would let you spin up a headless session of whatever world you want for whatever time period you want. Was a bit difficult to get the NCR integration, had to use undocumented APIs, but we might honestly just scrap that.

Why scrap it?

Ye. Though it's a sound VC strategy, throw money at a bunch of projects with the understanding that the scale of a single success will pay for the sunk cost of the lot. We just aren't in the position of the VCs.

I'm sorry I was under the impression that people are already spending at least a buck for storage. No reason people can't pay for $10 for server hosting of instances

I mean people on VRC literally pay $10 for a user icon

The APIs we used are explicitly not supported (as in they may change and likely will given the current situation)and getting the in game management stuff was a huge painpoint. It would be easier to do it with just a web administration console.

If you provide the service and charge a fee people will pay for it. Of the product is good

Yes but the cost of the initial investment is very high so it would work better to crowdsource it and let people contribute their own server power and get paid while Neos takes a small cut

Generating revenue by providing more services is good for Neos and Good for NCR

Very true

There isn't an easy way to confirm in game transactions for 3rd party services ATM. We used the chat API for it, and it seemed to work, but at scale it would be bad to rely on it because it's not in any way gurrenteed and we'd probably get into situations where people paid NCR and we never recieved a receipt.

What do you think the ICO is for?

You don't need to make it in game, that's ridiculous.

I know there is this obsession with doing everything in VR. But you don't have to

This is why NCR should cross chain to Solana or something.

Literally use a website

It was our only reason for wanting to include NCR as a payment option :) The end goal was being able to just press a button, authorize a transaction and boom, the server is set up with your account having the correct permissions and a management console that only you can interact with by default.

That intigration was the fun part TBH, other than that, it's just server hosting and that's boring :<

1. Not everyone is a long term thinker. To salvage NCR it needs more use cases now as well as a long term strategy like server hosting

2. Equal opportunity is fair. People want to make money. Giving people ways to make money with NCR will make it far more popular and help people find options to survive these hard times

I was talking about the funding generated by the ICO before the crash

The current situation is what it is, all you can do is adapt and keep moving forwards

And not repeat the mistakes of the past. Like, I was a moderately large holder when the incamous discord poll hit. That shook my faith, personally. For reasons that ended up bieing up... pretty on the money actually XD

I feel that .-.

I mean everything we are discussing is assuming things actually start moving forward.

If it doesn't nothing we talked about matter anyway

I will make them move forward. There is a way forward in any situation so lets find it and make it happen. Dont underestimate your own power.

I will make it matter.

Pretty sure either the two people who own the company or the court system can do that

The discussion is often the most impactful thing going forward. Discorse shapes the world *shrrug* I'm on the fence about Neos in particular right now, but I sure as heck will bring the insights I gaiined from its experience into whatever projects I work on or invest time in going forward.

Or did something change recently

Trust me I grew up in a rough part of a shit country. I know this country has much worse but there is always a way to take matters into your own hands especially if you work together

This literally has nothing to do with anything being discussed here

I dont think Neos can really be in the market asking for someone with 5 years of VR UI experience.. If they brought someone in it likely would be a someone starting out and that's okay I think

It means dont underestimate your own power

https://twitter.com/KarelHulec/status/1517404525484810240?t=wJhuWYXRnPVvXxdRgn0X8g&s=19

It has less to do with VR or more basic game design and user experience you missed a whole lot of discussion after this post

yeah probably

Unless you magically become majority owner of Neos, I'm not holding my breath

I can perhaps at least magically become a developer and then my loud voice gets louder and I can be a loudspeaker for people like you 😊

Incoming hot take: Yeah, I'm in the basket of hiring experienced devs at this point that understand they are getting paid to do a professional job and listen to their bosses. I'm all for community building and development on the community side. But I want professionalism and experience on the development side.

Why do those have to conflict? I do have professional experience, and my understanding tells me that to get the best results, listening to the customer and relaying your understanding of the customer's perspective is a massive key to success

Listen to your boss yes but also give them insights into the minds of their customers

There are literally separate people that should be hired for that it's called market analysis.

Anyway I'm open to talking about this more, feel free to add me in neos

Going to be on mute for the rest of the day

True, but again its useful to have people who know multiple fields

And sure, whats your username?

BurningSpaceMan

Nice and easy to remember!

I'm gonna be testing some new hardware today so I'll add you then

Speaking of which I have to finish up some stuff, see you around!

https://youtu.be/IK2YN1D71K4

Karel

Scam

None

Wow

I was wondering about this

As I was trying to decide if I wanted to install it

It's worth looking into for the purposes of computer mediated learning, definitely. Uniquely enabling for course-ware and sort of the only game in town ATM.

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Whoa

To put it simply the current UI is designed by Devs for Devs. The UI needs to be designed for the end user. With the understanding that the End-user will not initially or even never, want to engage with the Dev tools or advanced settings

This is also an issue. People *don't* have their own avatar to upload. This is assuming they are migrating from VRchat and have made something in blender etc etc. This assumptions is a "quit moment". Users go I don't have anything like that or I don't want to deal with this shit and they log out. There needs to be a selection of catered avatars for new users. Hire professionals on work for hire contracts to create a handful of basic avatars or select people from the community.

Minimizing the amount of clicks required for a user to accomplish basic tasks is always ideal. I agree that UI/UX needs to be research and data-driven. When I was working with Facebook on Horizon there were focus groups that helped the team to identify bottlenecks in the user and creator experiences.

But as burning said previously, the vast majority of end users are consumers and the UI needs to heavily cater to that demographic. As much as the Neos furries try and push back against the notion of VRChat being a direct competitor, it absolutely is.

Which isn't a bad thing. VRChat has seen incredible user growth over the past few years and is really the first social UGC experience since Second Life to be commercially viable long-term. Neos has an opportunity to take that formula, combine it with a collaborative in-world building toolset, and take it to the next level. Having the creation pipeline in-world completely removes the need for external IDEs and is setting the stage for major growth through crowdsourcing and user content.

Which is why seeing the company so fractured is tragic. Neos has a golden opportunity to establish itself as a major player in the story of the Metaverse, but the more time that goes by the less of a first-to-market advantage they have in this space.

None

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🆗

hi admin

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Oh, my. Hello there

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i tried to registrate an account but it says too many account registrations

None

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Where have you read that? I haven't seen such a statement yet.

Ah okay, good to read it up. Understandable

ProbablePrime isn't employed by Solirax and is purely a volunteer coder - something he himself has confirmed on Twitter recently. The only two people with executive decision making power are Karel and Frooxius. With a 50/50 voting rights deadlock the only person who can remove Karel is Karel himself - which isn't happening. I would pay no attention to the bombastic claims made by the furry contingent.

Can fire those negative people and rebuild their development team

Agreed. Operating without contracts has emboldened them to speak on behalf of the company while misrepresenting the executive leadership for the sake of pushing their own fraternal agenda. I feel that a lot of the team members gaslit Frooxius into believing he was a victim of Karel and pushed him to release the negative statements through peer pressure knowing that it would directly result in minimizing the value of NCR - and by proxy Karel's involvement. ProbablePrime himself said "If Karel leaves, NCR leaves with him" and I believe the situation we are in was very intentionally crafted as a way to push Karel out because he was seen as an outsider. It's textbook divide and conquer tactics, which is why it's more important than ever to start uniting a strong community in Neos that includes a diverse demographic of players and cultures outside of the status quo.

I meet so many people in Neos who support Karel but are afraid to voice that for fear of being ostracized from the community, and I think there's something incredibly wrong with that.

Hello team current status?

No update for weeks

Yes, avatars people may actually want to use

If you think new users are going to find that folder or understand that there even is a folder, then you're not paying attention to the discussion.

And I have spoken to over a hundred people who acknowledged it as a "quit moment" for them along side the terrible introduction and dealing with aggressive mentors. Sorry but your anecdote is irrelevant

Perhaps you should read the past couple hundred messages on here instead of jumping on an out of context comment.

How about you get rid of them. If the onboarding was effective you wouldn't need them

Irony

If you had a proper tutorial they wouldn't need guidance. Keep up

K

No one said it would and if you're not going to read the past conversation, you would understand we are talking about quit moments and basics

The UX and UI is universally acknowledged to be dog shit. By everyone. Including actual professional game designers.

It's literally mocked by other VR devs.

It's a quit moment

It can literally be knocked out and made better by a professional UI/UX expert in less than a couple weeks. You would know that if you kept up with the convo

Some critics gave Rise of Skywalker a standing ovation. Doesn't mean the movie wasn't absolutely terrible in the eyes of the audience.

The point was that it doesn't matter if a few people give it praise, if the end result is people walking away from it and never coming back. Including YouTubers who are just doing a one off review for content This wasn't a clever retort.

Literally missed the point that a few good reviews doesn't fix something being universally panned

Which is bad when we are talking about how to improve user retention

What is wrong?

I try multiple metaverse product and UI is bad for all

"I was distracted it wasn't my fault" then wait until you're not busy and read the chat like the rest of us. And no "making the best" with what you have is not how to deal with a broken UX that drives off new users. My god

The setting menu is a laundry list of of a tangled mess It needs to be organized into separate tabs. Like other menu sections are (sessions word tab). All the different function sections do not share a universal design aesthetic and have conflicting structures. All advanced settings should be in an advanced tab. Simplify simplify simplify, the file sheirarchy presented as a grid is foreign and alien to people who use mainstream OS (and literally forced text to microscopic levels). Oh and the UI itself clips through the game world and other users when it should act as an overlay. This is basic first week of first year of design school knowledge. The menu is obviously hacked together by more than one person and never unified 7nder one design scheme.

We are literally only talking about the menu. Not even touching upon world building. Just the menu UI. The entire context of the conversation was about user retention. People quit within a couple hours or so because of several major factors. A major one being a poorly designed UI. You guys can't deny it till the cows come how. But that doesn't change the fact that people are driven away by it.

Again if people bother to read the rest of the convo from yesterday. We were talking about rebuilding the entire UI/UX from the ground up regarding the main menu.

Using a professional UI/UX expert.

You clearly didn't

I usually ask the new user themself what they expect. If they expect the latter, I show them the Avatar Station world. That way they can have that initial browsing experience. After that if they want to setup their own avatar I show them how to do that in as much detail as they want.

It's tricky to say what the default experience should be. Because it's usually case-by-case with new users. Some new users are looking for a platform that Isn't like vrc or cvr at all, So I'd show them what makes neos special.

Furthermore; In my experience welcoming new users, the ones that are looking to do more in VR will usually stick around once they discover the possibilities. Even more likely to stay when they create an avatar that they connect with and find a close friend group.

New users simply looking for an alternative social platform will NEED to feel comfortable, not overwhelmed, and not feel like they're not clever enough. So I tread lightly with these kind of new users. They usually don't know their own potential. And anxiety and self-doubt can be high when moving to a new social platform. Especially when the complexity doesn't click at first.

totally agree! that's why i usually ask them and try personalise the experience

There's no 'one tutorial fits all' in neos.

yeah. at the moment it does help a lot

Perhaps a more interactive tutorial system?

Some people want to learn alone too. However I think that option doesn't actually close the tutorial session to the public though. I've joined people in the MTC that are like: "woah I thought I clicked 'I want to learn alone'."

In those situations I usually show them how to close the session access level first. Then say "I can chill here and you can ask any questions or I can cruise away"

Still though. Yeah. There also won't always be someone helpful to fill the gaps of the initial experience.
Needs to be a way for someone to get comfortable on their own and take a learning path that suits them.

Yeah it's not comfortable when that happens haha.
I do appreciate the mentor program. However, I personally feel that a lot of potential users get spooked. Mentors usually run through a checklist with new users. And I strongly think that a checklist falls under the 'one size fits all' approach.

At least today proved that the Neos volunteers / team members are no longer able to spread baseless FUD. Their strong comments earlier had no impact on the price, which suggests their ability to intentionally crash the price of NCR has ended.

I never wanted to take sides but the way the rest of the "team" have behaved has forced me to. I'm rooting for Neos, and Karel is the only one who has a realistic path forward for the project to thrive and reach its full potential. I'm hopeful.

I think you are in the position of needing to explain yourself

Honestly I don't think anyone has presented a very realistic path forward for Neos. But that might just be my pessimism with the lack of any clear plans or sign of progress in negotiations. We are at an impasse between the founders and the messaging has not been one of coming to a compromise.

I think both Karel and Froox are intrinsically motivated to the point we will not see either of them sell out their share. Realistically Neos can not continue without consensus between its owners or a court order. The later will IMO likely result in the dissolution of the legal entity.

The team hasn't been vague, they don't give a shit about us

damn looking at the discord it's such a toxic mess. They do nothing but obsessively talk about Karel in such a cultish way

a compromise is not on the table I think and I don't think the team's proposal is in good faith nor would they ever entertain a proposal that takes NCR holders under their wings, which would be one thing if not for the sleazy way they pretend to care. It is crystal clear that this needs to go to court, because from a glance at the discord shows the devs live in a fairytale world where childish finger pointing absolves responsibility and the people they cause real life harm to only exist as internet lingo like "cryptobros"

If anything the Neos team shows the dangers of planting yourself in an insulated community, only hiring your friends and then seeing people outside that group as your disposible products.

selfish assholes exist in all flavors. When I read over the discord I feel bad for Karel having to be an outsider working around such a jerk clique.

it wasn't until recent years that furries became synonymous with a hobby of petty internet arguments and being bullies. Its only in recent years I see them as the quintessential "ratio" spamming dogpilers on social media or always fishing for antagonists

Ive been around them a long time and some friends are as such, I know there's both a charming history and also an ugly past. Charming as a fandom of socially awkward types gathering around a love of cartoon animals they find appealing to their imagination, but an ugly past of weird public paraphilia and childish drama

when you met someone with a cartoon wolf pfp you could expect weirdness of course, but it wasn't until recent years I feel you expect hostile behavior, doxing or political arguments

I've been involved in the furry fandom since alt.fan.furry on Usenet in the late 90s. At the time it was mostly IT nerds and programmers who found common ground in a shared escapism. Tumblr really started leaking into the fandom around 2010 and it devolved into an echo chamber of social justice crusades because the more narcissistic public figures discovered that it was an effective way of getting attention. It became incredibly cult-like and these takeover situations became common in furry software projects and even furry convention leadership.

At the end of the day it's about attention, power, and creating cults of personality which we are now seeing with Neos. Karel refused to march to their drum and they started a character assassination campaign against him with wildly unrealistic narratives like intentionally locking Frooxius in the house. I'm too old and have been around the fandom too long to buy into the reality distortion field they've created in Discord.

it definitely is a character assassination campaign and the mods there just seem to exist to protect the endless smearing

there are negotiations but a quick look at discord seems to show the team is not taking them seriously and the prospect of considering the wellbeing of NCR holders is a no-fly zone to them. They would rather go to court than do that

Frooxius along with the volunteers have already demonstrated that they were willing to destroy almost half a billion dollars in value to remove Karel. There is no reasonable outcome for them other than Karel stepping down and making NCR 3rd party - which Karel has stated in not happening. At this point I think the most viable option is for Karel to start a parallel team with contracts and move forward with development with or without the others.

+1

Yeah its the only outcome I see and I think Froox and his friends are trying to railroad that outcome too.

f ro x

I think Legal measures need to continue and move onto the next stage, as for weak reasons Froox is dead set on throwing his holders under the bus

it seems to be a personal grudge, as devs say they want to axe NCR holders because they feel crypto stressed them out

will regret for lifetime for what he has done

The furries don't see NCR token holders as a valid part of Neos. They see this entire group as dead weight that needs to be cut off and are vehemently anti-crypto and anti-Karel despite the ICO being an important part of the revenue mode and capital raise for years.

They don't want to negotiate, they want us gone.

they should go home and fxxk themself

Yeah, and the negotiations are fake as far as I'm concerned. Its vile. Theyve opened up about trying to damage NCR as they see it as hurting Karel's ability to pay lawyers or something

I feel NCR holders should get together and talk about our own legal measures about being scammed. The very notion of collecting money from an ICO and then trying to attack its value and disassociate with it is criminal behavior and should be a part of these legal talks.

And I hope Karel is considering that in his case, as his cofounder seeks to fraud crowdfunders and I feel this should hold weight in the legitimacy of Froox's claim to the company he damaged.

Some of the money went to maintaining the neos servers

and the patreon had been selling NCR for years

and some devs have admitted to being paid. Obviously its a sticky situation

and consider that the ICO wasnt super profitable until the months of November/December when it exploded, which was also the time drama started and volunteers were refusing to send invoices

Waz, what is misleading is pretending youre popping in here for genuine discussion. Because we all know you scrap the telegram hoping to collect something incriminating.

And the devs benefitted from NCR and CDFT or whatever its called as well

also you seem to want to pretend the devs were not attacking the very value of NCR at this time too, purposefully damaging its imagine to investors, trying tp drive its price down, then those same devs are crying that Karel felt he was obligated to do buybacks?

I'm just pointing out how youre here with an agenda.

No, pointing out your scraping of the telegram is an agenda.

But how about I point out that those devs shouldnt be rewarded with fat paychecks for attacking the value of the very thing they want to be paying them?

The devs really wanted that ETH while at the same time slandering their own crypto and being apathetic to it. They literally wanted to collect sucker's money and then tell them to fuck off, then get rewarded for it. Instead Karel felt he had responsibility to the NCR holders whom they attacked, and he transfered that ETH into NCR to help ita value

dont get it wrong. Karel's buybacks are a goddamn charity to the frauded NCR holders that the devs want to fuck and the dispose of.

you got it completely backwards, friend.

well Karel tried that. He took the funding and proposed a 2022 roadmap along with new hires and he was rebuked.

and during this time, devs and the community were in anti-NCR mode and Froox decided NCR holders were the least of his problems, acceptable sacrifices.

insiders on the Neos team sold their NCR and then they announced they wanted to end the token and announce it was an unlicensed and unassociated with them.

https://www.opindia.com/2022/04/twitter-locks-source-code-to-only-allow-critical-updates-temporarily-here-is-what-we-know-so-far/

Sounds like the Twitter devs are trying to pull a Neos. 😂

I mightve misread and waz just runs some other scraper, but whatever I dont care about it running

Ah, Im sorry then