envidia de la buena!!! provechito!! y salud!!! 🍻🍻

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Great to see some progress here. Great project and user base. Once the NCR link to the platform is done and users are incentivised to use NcR than traditional currency great adoption will come.

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Bon appetite!

Karel Andrea Guys if you could please address my confusion. Its been a while since nuke attack and we still don’t know what exactly is happening right now. Karel seem to have implied that the matter is not exactly in court while froox doesn’t seem to seated on the negotiation table. So what’s going on to address the team dispute right now? Thanks.

your mom

Progress?

maybe

Hi Yehan, thanks for the question. We are still waiting for Frooxius to communicate his stand and response to our proposal and suggestions. Once we know more we will be able to inform you guys. I am sorry that this is taking time as we also want nothing more than to move forward in this matter and we are doing everything we can to speed things up, but we all have hang in there a little bit longer.

In a meantime, thanks everyone for your feedback on the website, we will certainly optimise and make changes where neccessary ☺️

Thanks Andrea. At what point would you stop waiting for his response and take further actions? To be honest I don’t think he’s concerned about honoring us with his audience.

Well, without going too much into detail, some further actions have been taken from our end to encourage communication and making sure that no additional harm such as that “nuke attack” as you put it, would happen. We are certainly not just blindly waiting but as it is a complex situation we have to approach it as such.

I was just referring to that explosion of tweets and publicly exchanged opinions/statements, that we experienced. I believe that is what Yehan meant?😊

Regardless as I said, once we do know more and we are in a position to share, we will absolutely keep you informed.

I hope everyone is having a good day/evening 😊... the beauty of different timezones 😁

Thanks Andrea. And yes I was refering to the series of statements…

Why everytime when i launch NEOS, i stsrt with tutorial ?))

Use the startup argument -SkipIntroTutorial

It should go away once you complete it once though

Can also happen when cleaning out the Neos Cache is being cleared.
Which is not automated yet btw.
so if you play a couple of months, joining various worlds, it is not uncommon that that will grow past 100 gb.

That can impact your windows boot time aswell, so keep in mind to check it now and then. (A good tool to check your disk allocation is for example treesize)

As a comparison: I had around 160 gb back then when I found out.
Was wondering why my pc took over 3 minutes too boot to the login screen, while having an nvme drive.

100GB+ is a bit of an exaggeration, those kinda sizes are outliers not the norm

WizTree is a pretty good tool to check where your data is being allocated

Thanks everyone for feedback 🙏🤘

I think part of what makes the Metaverse special is the eclectic diversity of the userbase and the ability to share our unique cultures and talents with others. To this point Neos has been predominantly homogeneous with a fairly large furry coder / developer presence which is fine, but in the spirit of the Neos slogan of "A Metaverse As Unique As Its Users" I think at some point it's going to be important to foster new communities in-world.

I also think it's up to us to start brainstorming what new community initiates will look like and how we can use the platform to create new visual/media content outside of Neos and draw in other early adopters. There is still a lot to be done before the platform is commercially marketable to the mainstream, but I think bringing a diverse group of pioneers can help to lay the groundwork for what Neo's in-world culture will eventually look like.

Just an early morning thought. ❤️

I mean any community can come into neos and use it i dont think we have anything in place currently that makes it less useable for non furries, although for non cfreators/devs i definitely see how neos can be a hurdle right now.

The main thing there i think is showing more of the diversity we already have since a lot of people just see the amount of furries.

It's less of a technical hurdle and more of a cultural one. When it comes to getting platform traction for any new social network, be in 2D or 3D - it's the paradox of needing people to draw in new people. Once you can hit that point of critical traction momentum it becomes self-propagating, but getting to that point requires a lot of consistency and outreach from individual community leaders.

Ah yeah the "But no one is playing X therefore i wont play X" issue.

One great thing is that a lot of people are part of more than just one community which should also just overtime help with bringing more diverse people

Definitely. Community cross-pollination can help.

Second Life was very much the same way early on. The pillars of the in-world communities and subcultures in conjunction with the content creators helped to create that early traction. It gave new users a way to engage day-1 which is incredibly important for user retention.

I think a certain degree of userbase expectation management is important with how early in the greater story of the Metaverse we are right now. The truth is that even Horizon isn't entirely mainstream accessible because of the HMD requirements. Sometimes having that strong core userbase in the demographic long-tail is enough for a platform to become successful and sustainable, which again is what we've seen with Second Life. Over time as the younger generations become VR natives we'll see higher adoption rates but it's important to keep growth projections realistic.

There is an inherent niche interest for fully fledged virtual worlds. They are getting more accessible now, but honestly they are of primary interest to a rather insular subset. That will likely continue to be the case until we can make a push for a more fundamental shift in terms of computing paradigm. At the moment the interaction metaphors are still a bit up in the air and we're really doing the work right now of iterating on the abstractions that will eventually enable broad adoption, but it's still in strongly the early adopter phase.

That is just not gonna happen, not because they can't develop something similiar to neos but because thats just not their plan to do so, nor the direction they are going in

VRChat will always have the albatross of Unity around its neck and I think that will ultimately hinder it from ever being something as dynamic as something like Neos. Neos is more akin to Unity itself. VRChat is more or less a very fancy Unity levels hosting service.

The metaverse is just the web :) Virtual worlds are what we're working on right now. Hypermedia is the interlink.

Yeah one of the major benefits of neos is one the core philosophy of everything being essentially open and modifiable and the fact that we are using Unity as a temporary solution not some bandaid fix as VRC does.

VRCs core systems depend to 100% on unity, trying to remove unity from VRC would be harder than starting from scratch, mainly because systems like simply delegating assets out to users make use of the integrated DLC system unity has

Agreed. VRChat is also a fully hosted solution and not likely to embrace hybrid decentralization in the same way that Neos has - and will continue to as it redacts proprietary corelibs from its codebase.

Yup, and theyve also found their revenue stream by sca--- i mean "charging reasonable fees" for events to be hosted within it.

This is basicly why I am interested in Neos. The eventual possibility of standardization and the current robustness of the entity component model.

Yeah I think ultimately monolithic walled gardens will be replaced by open solutions. Interoperability and scaleability are going to be important in the future as the Metaverse starts to integrate itself beyond the VR headset - a'la IoT etc.

Look up the semantic web and RDF. Data silos are not a feature of the web, they are a feature of surveillance capitalism and attempts to monopolize on network effects.

? The current renderer uses gammaspace. We haven't switched to the linear light model yet.

We are still using unities render pipeline. UE is nice visually but just impossible to actually build anything neos like on

not due to optimization or work required etc but due to their terms dissalowing such projects

Time wise, that heavily depends currently for obvious reasons, but replacing unity rendering has been planned for a while, you can also see geenz's plans for a rendering engine that would support something like neos for an idea of what such a renderer would look like

https://twitter.com/GeenzNeosVR/status/1510889909912887296

My friend, this is the history of ideas. They do not fail or succeed. They propagate through the medium of the mind. We are living in a world quite literally shaped by the Mother of All Demos, and that is from 1968. We take steps to solidify and manage virtual communities trail blazed by PLATO in 1973. The web as we know it iterates not through some mythical genius out of time, but through dialog with history. Ours is a field that likes to forget that. Yet here we stand, in history, talking :P

I agree! Virtual production is going to be a killer app of these collaborative creative spaces.

Yeah having more options for shaders and general rendering will be great for projects such as the metamovie

I was poking around in a virtual world called Helios recently. It's basically a VRChat clone but built in Unreal Engine with RTX compatibility. Some of the worlds are cinema-ready.

There is really no difference. That's the power of the web. That's why RDF is such a mindbogglingly powerful tool. That's why the 'metaverse' is inevitable. inter-connection is the name of the game and it has been since we first started tapping out Baudot code.

Pretty much every single one that deals in data, by virtue of interacting with wikidata, musicbrains, or any of the other semantically aware databases required to make content aware queries :)

:) Seems splitting hairs. It is clear that the semantic web is the primary way people engage with web services these days. I like RDF, but Schema.org's markup is fine too. We rely on semantic maps for virtual assistants, search engines... And it's the clear future for the web as a technology. Seems a silly point to press just because it's inconvenient to the marketing term 'metaverse' :P

If you insist. I point to the fundamental technologies, unicode, RDF, OWL, XML, hell, even tight purpose technologies like activitypub and I say "This is the pool I'm playing in". I know what I'm about, I know what interests me, and It's neos' entity component model as a clear extension of this paradigm :P

Though I'd honestly be fine with Aframe's if it comes to that.

Honestly I think that's just a momentum thing. having watched that space for a while the process of standardization was messy and drama laden.

That's not entirely Eugene's fault, to be fair. He did the work to switch over to activitypub from ostatus, which I still think was the right move, but yeah. Deletions are inelegantly handled to say the least >.>

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A reminder to not message random people on Telegram, you will be reported for Spam and then cannot message people

How is the team progressing now? I don't think this project should just be buried like this

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A solution to this problem could be to add a third founder with equity so he can vote.

No, but majority of votes

But it may work. The problem right now is that there’s only 2 members in the board with equal voting power. Isn’t it?

What if they both sell shares and make the company public?

Give voting to shareholders. The people who use the platform are probably going to make better decisions anyway

Who says shareholders would be the users ?

How can a company grow bigger if it doesn't get investment?

With faith

I hope that the team will end the conflict and common development project as soon as possible

Yeah, I'm personally looking forward positively to when this all is resolved, in the meantime ive been working on some modifications to the engine of my own

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h

any isralies here?

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I think more content like this is an awesome way to draw in the creator community. Easy to watch, entertaining and shows of some of the platform USP. I love the speech txt bubbles and the point about accessibility. Wish the token that was exchanged at the end of the video had an NCR logo on it.

https://twitter.com/jackiealexender/status/1513694322373259265?s=21&t=DILiThXiuFVIrBlbwtJxaA

I wouldn't really see it that way as I see there is an orange download button on top.

One wouldn't just click on big buttons blindly. That's why there's text just below that. The first paragraph seems reasonably phrased. And more details fillled in below :)

I've seen it. Both different takes on web design. Plus, they've had the previous design for awhile.

Again, this is my personal opinion. You didn't need to critique that hard on it ;)

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This user dislikes token 😞

You speak for them?

https://twitter.com/JackieAlexender/status/1514211246031048709?t=1PPsjg15n1-_B2mMkGHz8g&s=19

Ruined!

People investing in money gains were actually one of the big issues why NCR failed

Due to hype, people minted, price went up, FOMO, overbought, bubble pops, imminent dump. Same history that already happened with so many other coins

nah, it seems furries have a better understanding about that side of the market

I don't think decentraland is a success

I have a feeling that there are even furries in this chat! 😱

Also, ATH of NCR was almost twice the ATH of MANA

Token price != market cap

that's completely wrong

I know, but I am not referring to the market cap

Also, NCR had like $0,40 before the spike, while MANA was already $0,66 before the spike

that's quite why NCR had the bigger problem

price of NCR went up way too quickly for a game that wasn't ready yet and still isn't ready as of today

Once Neos is ready, I can imagine that NCR is able to go up again at a suitable rate

and blaming the CEO, yes I know

however it seems to be for a reason. It isn't happening just cause

There must be a good reason that's making the dev team acting this way, as I know they wouldn't damage Neos

^ Thats one of the main reasons.

No, that's Karel's doing actually

at least for why I dropped my high tier

Personally, I cancelled my Patreon until things are resolved, once they are done i'll probably resubscribe to patreon at the same or higher tier, assuming a higher tier is even open at that point

I think supporting a project you love is the most attractive reward of them all

I mean that's fine if thats all you are in for it.

The main point of patreon in general is to support the creators, the rewards are just additional incentives people offer as a thanks

Yeah, vote with your wallets

The patreon is almost dead because we decided to pull out until the issues are resolved

although 24k isnt really "dead" (note i use €)

Huh?

I stopped support to give incentive to solve the current dispute quickly, so I can resubscribe the moment things are solved in a good way. I won't resubscribe if I don't like the outcomes

The patreon spiked to 140k when the NCR mess started

So what point in time do you define as "the NCR mess" because this all started shortly after the pumping of ncr and even before it hit 10

I hope for a solution where development of Neos continues at a faster pace and where NCR gets its utility that it so desperately needs

This is inaccurate, you can line up frooxs posts with the pricechart

That chart is always pulled up, however it is misleading

just cause two things happened at the same time doesn't mean that one had to cause the other

You can see how Froox's announcement actually made it dip temporarely

The point of the chart is that the Froox announcement came way after the dip even started

I think that's just a coincidence, actually looking at the times, NCR was already on the way down when the poll was published

iirc we had a buy wall at 5$ at some point, so if you see a platoue there its faux

A lot of people were completly buffed by them, how they were handled and so on in a bad way

The shape that you can see till december is actually a similar shape to how it usually develops when a coin is overbought

the drop at the beginning of January, that's the first one that seems to have been caused by an announcement

The Staking poll making people sell isnt surprising to me because theres a lot of people that see a swap to stakng as a red flag

but it might also as well be in line with how a coin develops when it was overbought

I'd like to know more about that connection

In general i think the main takeaway here is that Froox's announceement did not cause "the downfall of ncr" NCR was already on a downtrend which is the main point of the chart really

then why didn't NCR go to the moon?

wen moon?

I can agree, it was just a small dip that quickly recovered

Im not too deep into that subset i just know they exist, I think fantom either tweeted on it or made a retweet on it at some point

And there were people asking for mars.

whhen Sagittarius A?

Personally i like joking about that asking for the moon is thinking too small, like weve already gotten to the moon, time to explore new planets!

Oh i completely didnt even realize that this is the same dude

I already took issue with him bringing up peoples dead pets in a kinda mocking way

Also personally i prefer Coinbase over binance

Ah makes sense, i think CBs ui is just a lot neater and simpler to use, on top of offering Paypal payouts free of fees

The paypal payouts mainly matter in countries that Creditcard payouts arent supported in

When is next NCR meeting in metaverse

It's almost like my vision of the future of neos is aligned with the team, which i have been literally saying in here but go off i guess?

I mean hell if you are looking for some smoking gun you could have at least found something jucier like maybe that horror meme edit i did

by the way you do realize that the first part of my name is my literal discord username...

hmmmmmmm

And if you dont understand what im talking about with insane demands, that would be stuff like full IP ownership and anything along those lines

Such as what Karel has proposed before where froox would simply work in a seperate company that just makes code for neos, thats not a reasonable ask

I dont even know what hes trying to discredit is the problem here because i have not been quiet on this kinda stuff in here XD

You know, now that you point it out. Maybe you ARE Sharkmare... I think it's too early to tell for sure though.

my dude im drinking soda you cant do this to me

X3

xD

Anyone got any fun ideas for inspector title names i can add to my mod?

Inspectronus?

added

Inspogtor

Added

is added

i hate that i genuinely chuckled at that one

Do you mean the US based one?

I thought it was just to make it easier to employ the volunteers at Usa, and Frooxius also wants to live there

Yes that was the initial one Karel suggested. it would be silly to take such an offer now

Did you interpret it yourself, that it would somehow make Froox just a regular employee?

Regardless of if Froox was to remain in partial ownership of Solirax LTD, in the current negotiations its not really a serious suggestion because everyone has stated that they do not wish to work with karel yet that would in totallity be literally working with and partially for karel

And any other suggestion that would give karel managerial power over the team is just as unrealistic for exactly this reason

I guess time could change things. As months pass by and Froox has time to think things through

That is honestly as likely as the earth being hit by a meteor... like with a case such as this you usually dont see people suddenly making up and singing Kumbaya together

Yeah that's something Karel could do after this all is over.

Thats a reasonable suggestion, that karel hires a completely new dev team to work on his projects

But that also necesitates kinda that these current negotiations are over

We will see

Yup

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money does everyone love money 😘

What did I just read lol

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Oof well now I can't speak Australian

Pretty much lol

Now if those sorts of comments are allowed but the above stuff is blocked something is wrong

all furries must exterminate

I came into Neos open minded didnt have any hate for these animals but after this all happen it change

evil people

inshallah u guys see a good future with neos me personally im out since a long time

Yeah they were all hella friendly in discord too untill they realised I want to make money x)

making money = evil in their eyes so no way to have a ICO

not here to start discussing anyway but just wish u guys luck on this all

surprisingly enough, majority of us crypto investors hate thieves too lol

who woulda thought

I mean, I've been big into escapism via gaming myself so it's not hard to recognise

I think telegram gets used more for that tbh :3

In the years that I've spent participating in the furry fandom I've come to realize that it's a victimization cult that weaponizes words like "abuse" to manipulate others into believing they are morally superior and entitled to taking over projects like Neos. There was a brief moment of time I empathized with Froox until the anti-Karel claims became more and more ridiculous. They really lost me at the whole story about Karel locking Froox in the house and forcing him to code/work. Completely asinine tabloid-level trash shock pieces to evoke emotional reactions and win people over to their cause, and I'm not buying into it.

Considering these sorts of work disagreements happen everywhere in life it's a little silly or "childish" to say "it's because of furrys" but if you need a target to cope, I guess what ever floats your boat

This entire fabricated hate campaign is a result of the volunteers not wanting to take orders from Karel after he presented the 2022 roadmap in January. It's no coincidence that everybody trying to push Karel out of his own company has a cartoon animal avatar in Discord. They've collectively gassed up Froox into believing he is a victim of Karel and what followed was a cascade of negative announcements on Discord which were meant to devalue NCR and minimize Karel's influence in the company. This isn't about abuse - this is a power grab as I've seen happen many times in the past with furry projects.

I think your toxicity has pretty much peaked at this point, theres no way up from that statement.

The furry community in the Neos Discord spews anti-Karel vitriol 24/7, but the moment you clap back they immediately play the "You lack empathy" card because their entire modus operandi is weaponizing perpetual victimhood.

The idea that everyone against Karel is a furry is a pretty tired and overdone meme

Or maybe people just dont think your joke was in good taste?

Like im all for dark comedy but theres a time and place and that image was anything but tactful

Like what did you expect when posting a picture of froox being punched while being told "shut up furry"

how did you expect people not to take that badly when you had it done?

Lmao hypocrisy at its finest. Literally hours before people were posting memes about Karel and I embezzling and a bunch of other cringy made up hate.

yeah its a one way street it seems, and theyve been in hate mode for so long they dont even see how pissy and filled with bile their behavior is

before this telegram channel even existed I saw people in the discord saying Tizzy embezzled, how it "made their blood boil" and how they cant wait till she gets hers.

so I dont want them acting like theyre not the ones throwing stones

those little creeps

What the frick

Good morning everyone, I am sending positive vibes from sunny Prague and just would like to kindly remind everyone to remember that Neos is a place for everyone. There are people who might come from all sorts of social and cultural backgrounds and that is okay. Having opinions is normal just maybe lets remember that words are powerful and hate from any party won't ever produce anything pretty.

here is something to change the mood 😁

I am now enraged

Aim high innit😁

I hope you won't see this as making the situation too light. In all seriousness, I really understand that for a lot of you this is less than fun situation. We really appreciate your support and that you choose to stick with us on this somewhat rocky cruise towards better future.

takes time, but it'll get on them someday, and someday Neos playercount will be up there above VRC and beyond

well no to be fair without them it wouldnt even exist

but with better community behavior and some less toxic devs/mods on discord, yes we'd all be happier and with a better game

still Im happy to be here with you all

well without the vitriol from bored kids on discord and devs who are literal assholes forshadowing their intent to rugpull, yes I think Neos would be much better off

and I mean rugpull very literally. Froox boldly stated his desire to rugpull us all. Don't forget that.

after 4 years of selling NCR, he said to kick us out as "third party".

naaaaw no thanks. Im glad we have people here smarter than that.

Ah yes, sure am glad we can come here for constructive, mature dialog. :)

No problem, just amusing juxtaposition. Vitriol from bored kids on telegram.

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Karel Kindly check dm. Thanks!

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I am going to have left over steak anyway 😋

I thought Neos was suppose to be friendly and inclusive!

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Sounds good :)

Hi

Thank you 😊

I'm just watching the demonization of anyone who doesn't toe the line over there.

Noticing Reactant and Tizzy have alot in common in that they were uncontroversial figures who loved Neos but happened to have pro-crypto opinions, now they've been after-the-fact revised as corrupt actors.

If you want to have such an opinion, you might can avoid getting shit on if you act extremely meek but even then no I don't think it will work

I don't really know either of them very well. But I've had several conversations about how to better decentralize Neos' service architecture without much fuss.

I wouldn't know, but since I assume it has nothing to do with Neos, so it comes across as digging up dirt.

which is in line with what Im saying

I dont think a metaverse is possible without decentralized ways of managing people's things between different platforms, and afaik DLT is the only way to really do that unless we want a corporation like Meta to fill that role

The only thing I know about that, is apparently it was a large enough kerfuffle to make it into the academic literature of Hypermedia. Specifically on navigating the role of 'grief play' in the process of governance within virtual communities. It's actually a pretty fascinating read if you're interested in the social dynamics of online spaces: https://www.academia.edu/6123066/Governance_in_Virtual_Worlds_Grief_Play_Hacktivism_and_LeakOps_in_Second_Life (It also mentions LambdaMOO, which I think deserves more wide-spread recognition as really the originator of a lot of the paradigms we have adopted)

LambdaMOO is the reason I've got e/em pronouns on rotation *nod nods*

I'll give it a read. Lucaedr kind of filled me in. As I was telling him, for what its worth, griefing was my entry into SL. But then I met spme nice people, furries actually, and became a normal user. I definitly think Tizzy believes in and loves virtual worlds and spaces, so I dunno but maybe her situation was similar

lambdamoo? damn the tizzy shenans go back to the very beginning

(kidding)

I'm fairly neutral on griefing for a lot of the reasons outlined in that article, TBH. I do think it has the potential to be a pointedly transgressive political strategy in virtual communities and I think that's a valid way to enact direct action. When i was first coming to my own online I did my fair share of flame baiting. It's important to maintain environments where that exploration of self is possible, even if it's equally important that we manage it for those who could be outsizedly impacted.

Part of me wonders if that's going away slowly. The major platforms are strictly monitored and even in games non-consensual pvp like WoW's open world are increasingly limited

it seems the current common school of thought is if all that is removed we'll have better pnline interactions and yeah I also dont really believe that

yeah guess it depends on the platform and game.. Ive always just favored being given the tools to moderate myself. I think that can be refined so well, and every game seems to do it differently

little things like if I block someone in a game, Id like if it told that person in some way that I did so, so I have the piece of mind knowing they know I cant hear their stuff

like I think little things like that could really strike a happy medium and still let people be flamers or jerks when they want to

as for Neos I dont think ingame behavior aside from outright scamming should warrent a ban, but then again thats another reason I favor blockchain tech, where there's no need for me to trust the studio to not ban me at a whim and take away the things Ive spent time and money on

That article discusses the effectiveness of 'code-based' management. Generally, I think it doesn't address the root of the issue. I'm interested in the question of community governance in the context of a truly open, decentralized network. In the context of the article, one without 'gods'. That means, at least to me, the establishing of points of etiquette and self-governance with the institutions of mediation firmly embedded in the community they serve.

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As we’ve seen happen to Karel - just because a group of people pin a label on somebody doesn’t mean it’s true. Second Life was my entire world for almost 20 years and it had a major impact on almost every aspect of my life from my career to meeting my fiancé and countless friends. I tend to be pretty vocal when I feel certain people have been wronged, and just as I’ve been standing up for Karel - I stood up for people that were seen as miscreants in-world. The group I ran (Woodbury University) was a real life school in Burbank, California that had a virtual campus presence in SL. We opened up our doors to anybody who wanted to participate including those who were seen as outcasts in other groups. Because of this, certain toxic bloggers painted us as a griefer group and it’s why the furries in Discord continue to try and discredit my opinions after reading them at face value.

A lot of those outcasts went on to become successful developers, artists, and industry professionals because we gave them direction and purpose - and most importantly a sense of belonging.

Many of them ended up attending the real university and getting degrees. It was an incredibly successful educational outreach, as unorthodox as it seemed.

Ggood

It's a really interesting case study TBH. I really enjoyed reading through the context. The author draws parallels between Wikileaks hactivism and the events leading to the exposure of the Braniac surveillance system, which is a bit hyperbolic to be sure but it does serve as an effective argument as to the political nature of emergent play within these sort of sandbox communities.

Emergence and presence are definitely what makes spaces like SL and Neos special. There’s an organic dynamic to it that gives the experiences so much more meaning than scripted experiences. I see my time and experiences in the Metaverse as equally valid and important as my real life and to me they are extensions of each other.

Thats incredibly interesting and even admirable. It says alot they would try to slyly reference an SL ban in a vague way to, again, mislead and gaslight people just like they are with Karel.

The same old "we can't talk about it or give reasons but... me and all my friends agree he's the problem" methods that highschool children use.

When people were like "wait till you hear about her history in SL..." I was imagining the worst, like, what was it some sort of strange obscene SL community? Nope. It was a bunch of nothing.

Like what slimey scumbags they are over there.

No doubt. I grew up in MUDs and IRC. I came into my own mostly in that medium, embracing the freedom of self that those spaces afforded me. They were fading away at the time they became important to me, a lot of the early SL dynamics reminded me of what I saw in those communities, though I didn't have any hardware good enough to use a viewer without frustration ;) Neos has a lot of the feeling of the early web communities I remember. Everything is very personal, difficult to survey without getting involved. Organic and messy and all the things that make up a living thing. Though that's hard to sell to someone who wants to expand their marketing outreach XD Community management is hard and we still don't seem to have cracked the question of how to really deal with the paradox of these intimate and vastly massive 'platforms'.

I think there’s a certain beauty in virtual imperfection because it captures humanity in a really authentic way. I believe Agent Smith touched on this in the original Matrix. 🙂

It's more they were there. It was a culture war. I'm sure that the histories that unfolded there are complex, especially with SA and 4chan involved, bad blood was practically guaranteed. (Though given the JLU's whole overstepping into FurNation I am somewhat curious as to the opinion of those who are aware of the situation in it's fuller context view the situation)

Were you involved in LambdaMOO? I’ve had a few interesting conversations with Julian Dibbell. Lots of parallels and lessons to be learned from the early days of online communities.

Furnation was my first community in second life and where I eventually met Geenz as a mod back in the 2000s. I’m old 👵🏻

My grandpa tried to get me into it when I was younger :) So, kinda. I didn't stick around, didn't have the attention span at the time, then when I did have the attention span, I was running a MUD for my friends. I have become more interested in it as my attention has started to shift outside of pure technology into the social systems that technology enables.

PLATO is another one of those communities I really enjoyed looking at, though I think LambdaMOO is probably more directly comparable to NEOS/SL.

At the end of the day the technology is a means to an end of facilitating connections between people across distances and cultural borders. The strides we make technologically help to increase the human presence factor. Neos is special because it increases the nonverbal bandwidth possible between users with tech like FBT but also allows for communities to collaborate in real time with the in-world toolset. I was legitimately excited to see it come together because there is nothing else like it - but here we are.

I has no idea average people could access plato, I thought ot was only that university could

The technology stack is still really the only game in town. With maybe the exception of A-Frame, but even the most developed A-Frame project (Mozilla Hubs) is years behind. I am somewhat worried that we're not on the right track for the community to get to the point that it can move forward with the project with any social cohesion.

For the most part it was university (and high-school!) students, until they tried to commercialize the service, but very few people bought a link because the people who wanted to bring it to market didn't see the network as the product and instead marketed the lessonware on stand-alone units as the home option.

thats pretty fascinating

well you certainly know alot.

Always a weird feeling to hear that XD I'm just nerding out about stuff I like! It's like... super useless trivia most times.

dont think it's useless trivia, you being knowledgible about some of the first virtual worlds ever made, which is pretty fascinating

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Hello guys! How’s the future of Neos and NCR looking today?

its looking okay, just we're sort of hostage to the outcome of an emotional argument, so we're here waiting for the verdict, but feeling good personally because I like and trust Karel/Andrea that they got us

What do you think is going on with the developers? They've been accusing karel or mistreating them. To give them credit, they are the ones actually developing the platform. But do you think there might be a hidden agenda?

there's other, personal matters at play, that much is pretty certain

but it's known to happen in thr startup world. A situation where funding gets secured, then suddenly a member of the team in a good position who has nore direct access to the other devs will try to sabotage thr funding or VC, prevent growth and drum up drama and take control of a project or company

Control

So Karel is just as active and has sacrificed just as much as Froox I'd argue, but people want to paint it as "Froox was the only who developed it" which is an assbackwards way of looking at things. Its like "you just be the guy who pays for everything and works behind the scenes and I'll take all the credit and the entire IP belongs to me" which is what is trying to be argued

the kind of viewpoint only a child living at home could have who hasn't had their sleeves rolled up working in the business side of things and doesn't know how exhausting it is.

not saying that's you, just thats the perspective they're exploiting.

afaik the 'mistreating' part is a vague accusation that they don't have to clarify. Basically once NCR gained value Karel stepped in and started proposing growth and hirings. The other devs were surprised by him suddenly going from working in the background to taking a leadership role, and many of then didn't like that. Many, including Froox, didn't want to grow the company so quickly and saw the Neos project as their personal project and only wanted to hire close friends. Also in the background was a wave of anti-crypto sentiment that made Karel's side of the business unpopular and create discomfort among team members who didn't want to be a part of something that was so unpopular.

I think in light of that, arguments happened after Karel hired a new person and there was resentment toward that and her. I guess it was handled poorly and the devs thought they should be onboarded or given the funding rather than it be managed by Karel. I'm sure that's where the common accusation that "Karel says being asked to be paid is akin to blackmail" comes from, even though Karel did offer pay, its just by this point the dev team had already internally committed to boot their CEO. It makes sense as if they were actual employees its clear they just wanted that status to axe him, making Karel refuse to onboard anyone, amd eventually someone was fired and Froox disagreed.

so it boils doen to Karel, from thr very beginning, was not allowed to be a CEO in any real sense. He we supposed to be the guy in the background. Yes I think agenda is at play, and the agenda is to take control of the project and remove the unpopular (but highly lucrative) crypto element

afaik Karel said some uncouth, badly worded things like saying he was being blackmailed (but likely was to some small degree), and its argued he mismanaged NCR but this was in the face of the dev team openly being nonsupportive of it. During this time devs were saying they didn't like NCR and would be okay with removing it/didn't want to develope its functionality, which was tanking its value

I think the biggest thing was Karel attempting to fire someone, though they were not really an official employee. Also seems something sexual happened, someone was involved with a type of VR roleplay that's currently unspecificed but that Karel called "disgusting" but I have no idea what it was. And I think that caused a cultural rift as well. Maybe outlining to them that Karel is not a furry who is cool with certain things the fandom does

someone tell me where im wrong too pls

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For me, the culture clash is a real issue when it comes to public relations, but ultimately immaterial to my position with regard to the current unpleasantness. I saw the existing staff go on strike in all but name, so I view it as a labor dispute (as volunteer labor is still labor). The strangeness here is that a part owner is siding with the labor force to the point that their positions are virtually synonymous. This doesn't typically happen.

I have no reason to doubt the statements they have given with regard to motivation, and they would explain the strangeness I see in how the workplace dynamics are shaking out. For the most part, people are pretty forthcoming when you ask them 'why' and the team was very amendment that the inclusion of NCR as a cryptocurrency was not the core issue even when people were at their most vitriolic about NCR. After negotiations apparently broke down (" We lost any faith that our side and concerns over past months were being taken seriously in the negotiations and that the situation would be amicably as quickly as possible") the team stated their intent to work toward 'fair dissolution', citing concerns with 'unilateral actions' in regards to the 'handling of NCR, crypto and business'.

In short, the partnership stopped being a partnership. I won't speculate further, because for better or worse the breakdown of that partnership is personal and we are but voyeurs. People change, as do visions. Somewhere along the line, two vectors diverged and we are left with this. I would like to think that these visions could reconcile on a community level, but I do not think they will reconcile internally. We are left to contemplate what the landscape will look like for Neos without this partnership in leadership.

I personally think that means that we have to put in the work and be more personal about what we see as the project vision. Choosing a champion to fight a legal proxy war isn't going to get us far, working to repair the rift in the community might. Regardless of how this shakes out, we need at least the possibility of cross pollination to keep the platform healthy. We seriously risk specializing into extinction if we don't maintain a diverse community dialog as to the future of the platform.

well said..

of the best posts here

only counter point I can think of is that in concerns of the labor force siding with the part owner, I think it's not outlandish in that he deputized them all, its always been implied to me that they are largely his personal friends, and if most are pleased to sign a statement, I dont think anyone would want to be the sole person refusing and going against the grain. That more says to me their work positions are so divided, where one side solely handles the business and maybe that's just as strange. The moment Karel hired his own aid seems to be around the same time things started falling apart.

Maybe. For what it's worth I've heard nothing but positive things about Andrea from the staff that signed the statements. I won't discount that the timing of her hiring could have added to the tensions. As for the personal friends part. That's true. Most of the Neos regulars know Froox at some level. All of the volunteer staff are players. That complicates things to a degree, but it still pretty much never in the interest of management for work to stop. If Froox feels alienated enough from the business side of things as to not feel the crunch from work stoppage, that's at least noteworthy.

well, everything you say is true

Im guilty of choosing a champion in hopes it will atleast represent my ideals where I feel like I had no voice otherwise in the community

not to say I dont genuinely like the guy, I sure do

i dunno though, thanks for your post, helped me think of things in new light

I'm glad! I just want to keep the lines of communication open. It's been real rough to watch people I was starting to get to know shut down and the community circle wagons on each other. There is no point building all this IMO if we're just going to end up with some exclusionary monoculture, or lose the sense of genuine community to infighting. I've always thought that this project was important as a model of what modern web cultures can be when designed with real respect for its inhabitants, and that's important for everyone.

Honestly I missed @animalchin :P Glad to see him over here. Was going to make a corny "I've seen him, AGAIN!" joke when I joined but it seemed an inopportune moment XD

haha glad someone gets the reference

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When listing next exchange?

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i was thinking about the possibility of nvr creating lands in neos.. a central city in neos.. things like that, by-products, so that both karel and froox share possible benefits from the growth of the platform

I have no idea if it was true but even if it was I imagine it wasn't something worth gasping over, and prolly more a misunderstanding. like Im not gonna pretend furries don't do explicit things in VR and aren't associated with a myriad of oddball fetishes, but I wouldn't pretend that's a big controversial problem because I dont think it matters (most of the time). I think the tone I was getting was that Karel didnt think those representing Neos should be doing things in public, and for such reasons I think he now says anyone he hires he wants them to use their real name, not a pseudonym

then again the one misunderstanding could be me

yeah I like the idea of a Neos mainland, and other unofficial mainlands too

Meh. Anyone that bought above 3-4 should have known how risky it was.

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whose address is ?0x7ccbac6d333838608be0c40e124381016f4c81fc

keep buying NCR token ,amount of 4.14million

https://www.geekwire.com/2022/second-life-creator-shares-lessons-learned-from-one-of-the-worlds-first-metaverses/

I think buyback is beneficial to the Ncr token

This is such a strange thing to me. I grew up in a landscape shaped by FM-2030, Captain Crunch and The Mentor. Here we are at the forefront of Cyberspace and we have hangups on people using handles? We're channeling a vision of the melding of online and offline identity, we should accept with that the legitimacy of an online first identity.

That NCR can still be sold later

Karel could also start looking for support from companies, offering sizeable stake of the NCR Soliraxis has

Yeah I agree. I think its a knee jerk reaction, he feels burned being attacked and attempted to be thrown out from what he considers people who are coming into his company and not even taking it seriously. Like I can only imagine how that feels, to want to get to lead something and then pseudonymous people are blocking you and wanting you exiled.

How would he withdraw ICO funds? Karel would need a bunch of NCR of his own in order to sell into the company's buy orders. And the source of those tokens could be traced back to him easily.

I've heard the discord try to make that disingenuous assertion too, it just doesn't make sense though.

If it means anything to you coming from a random faceless account on Telagram...

I heard about Nex being fired and also sexual misconduct from some team members before any of the public announcements on either side were made. Both contributed to some of my friends leaving neos. On top of that the team has refused to comment ether to refute or confirm these matters even after I aggressively pressed them.

For these reason I personally believe the allegations to be true.

Well it's not a matter of him being a dick. Likewise, I have only had positive interactions with him. But Karel claimed at one point that him firing Nex was one of the main factors contributing to the final breakdown between him and Frooxius. Nobody on either side denies that Nex was at some point fired by Karel. The exact reason he was fired has only been commented on by Karel. The team refuses to touch it.

I heard about this stuff from friends who spent way more time in game then me and were in the inner circles of the community. I'm sorry if that is not enough, but would prefer not to dox them then convince a stranger on telegram.

The full context to my understanding is that the team members were starting up lewd activity without checking to see if the room was clear of minors and that everyone else consented. This is directly against the guidelines set up for lewd activity. When made aware of this the team members ignored the people who brought it up. When reported there were no repercussions. It was manly a matter of double standards.

The only evidence that connects this insadent with Nex's firing is that Karel mentioned sexual misconduct as a reason. It is possible that the incident is not connected to Nex or that there were two separate incidents. I personally lean towards the incidents being connected.

I don't think that was the main reason he was fired though. Just more shit flung when the shit flinging started.

we simply don't know anything

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So what is going to happen to NCR? What are your perceptions?

Nothing at this point. It's at its lowest point atm. It can only go up from here 😉

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It should really be less of a focus on what's Going to happen with NCR and more what is going to happen with Neos, since the value is directly tied to the platform. Personally I think if Neos we're to move away from Patreon itself and use a more direct payment mechanism for the storage and other account rewards it would be beneficial, as it would paint the platform as more of a self-sustaining viable commercial product that generates revenue. Especially if the fee is less than Patreon. It would also make the platform more enticing to investors willing to do other forms of funding

What in the project is currently lacking funding?

https://twitter.com/binance/status/1516069113537384451?s=21&t=nZXxV_W6itsvD9zYjJ6OxQ

Eventually NCR will go up, but it's not clear to me at least if it will ever entice new investors through an ICO after recent events. In my view NCR did extremely well as Seed funding and moving away from Patreon and establishing proof of revenue would entice Series A 8nvestors if needed. Growth always requires funding. Especially if you want to compete with META and grow the platform. Having traditional investors and establishing a legitimate board is a good thing. Not needed right this second. But I'm just saying moving away from Patreon would be beneficial

I was under the impression the team's (Karel inclusive) public stance was that they were explicitly trying to avoid traditional investment capital and the dilution of control that comes with it. My own personal view on the mater is that it is not so much critical that Neos competes with META but rather that we offer a substantial and real alternative to their vision of the metaverse.

Ultimately I see Neos well positioned with a steady funding source. Apportioning additional fund raising when specific opportunities present themselves is solidly tactical, but to the service of what ultimate strategy? Respectability is not our end goal, nor is raising captial. "To provide diversity, individuality & creative freedom." to quote the mission statement on the site. What do we gain tword these goals by transitioning our funding source out of patreon?

Diversification of our funding sources is, I think, a solid tactic. Providing services in a way that has less friction is a good move. Selling storage in a way that is not dependant on patreon is some low hanging fruit IMO. However, I am weary of the idea of trying to court investers. I see it as a quick way to compromise creative freedom. We need to weigh that threat against the opportunity it presents. At the moment, I don't feel we have a clear answer as to what we would do with funds if we were to raise them. We have yet to even partially capitalize the 'seed funding' from the ICO.

Diverging from Patreon is a move that 'if you were' to seek series funding would be seen as enticing. Any move that would entice Series funding investors will ultimately contribute to increasing the coin value just like it would with an IPO. Doesn't matter if you court series funding or not. As it is an ICO it ultimately serves the same function on the platforms end. It's not rocket science.

I understand your argument is that diverging from patreon would make the project more investable. My question is: what current opportunity or threat makes it worth the risk of negatively impacting the existing funding source? I don't really agree with your positioning of this dilema should Neos persue traditional investment, to be open, it's odd to me to argue that we must choose one or the other, there are plenty of investors that would be willing to invest in a company that also receives funds through patreon. But I wonder what purpose this fund raising would surve right now. Cash reserves are nice, but we have reserves. What work do we have for these dollars to do?

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The question was not about pursuing investment but what actions would strengthen the value of the ICO buying or minting for ICO is an investment. Just like if it were an IPO. And as for Patreon why would it be beneficial to willingly give up 8 or 12% instead of %1.3 -3.5 per transaction?

You can't give up what you don't have. Switching costs factor into the analysis more then I feel you are giving credit. This is why I am asking what particular things we are working tword. Our strategic goals need to be based in, to borrow your wording, 'less of a focus on what's going to happen with NCR and more what is going to happen with Neos."

I think we would agree that ultimently NCR's value is tied with Neos' platform health. What I don't feel has been established is how a Patreon option is detrimental to the platform's health or how the current Patreon option is preventing us from pouncing on a major opportunity for the platform.

You don't really need to be working toward anything. 12% is literally throwing money away when it seems the Patreon is literally just functioning as a subscription service storefront. Like just saying some of the rewards listed are a bit inconsequential and probably just not good ideas in the long run. That's all I am saying. And As I understand it most people are just doing Patreon for storage space. But before any of that hiring QA staff would probably be the first thing.

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Hello I have a question if anyone can answer?

I bought into NCR last year and I know it dropped to nothing... but still hold some in my wallet... Is this any good? Did Neos go to a different contract? What do I do?

I'm holding onto mine

holding

waiting to buy more :)

Unrelated to ncr but why does the new neos website:
Primarily feature a video that's at most 15fps for the entire intro (very off-putting) from a random youtuber
Call "FrooxEngine" "Neos Engine"
Show the Patreon and Ncr buttons in the main place your eyes are drawn to with the download button hidden on the navbar and 2/3 down the whole page
Say that being a Patreon gets you "priority support" (no it doesn't)
Say "meta verse as unique as it's users" (should say "a metaverse"?)

I also would like to suggest moving the "neos credits" button from next to the Patreon button into the ncr section next to the white paper button, and placing the download neos button there instead of very far down the page.

that suggestion has already made from many

are you okay? then you come

I'm fine, why?

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Sandbox is valued about 4.8 B MC

WEN NEOS

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On their website in the white paper, it shows a different "Contract address" for NCR credits... Neos calls the old contract the "Genesis contract address"... is this bs. can i sell to get the few hundred dollars i have left after losing $3,000... or what??? any recommendations. If they have a new contract... no one will be buying the old "genesis" bs. Im so pissed off

So... should I hold onto my NCR? Lets say this company turns out to be a $200 million company... will NCR go up? or worthless?

to know what I should do with my NCR... that's all.. just a question. If you dont want to answer, let someone else. I put down $3,000 in NCR last year and it dumped. Now worth $184.

sorry if I bothered you.

just wondering if it's worth it to hold onto, and if it has a chance to go up...

I understand. I know Neos team broke up and Karel mentioned they stopped using NCR, which if true will kill the token. I guess I'll just hold onto and look at next year. Thanks.

you bought in a moment of fomo. In my personal opinion, 4 usd could be enough... but while I was selling, you were buying. I would tell you to buy to do DCA. but I can't tell you that because the partners are in litigation and the risk of it going to 0 unfortunately exists. I see it unlikely but this is the crypto world... it can happen.

Unfortunately, you entered at too high a price where the risk-benefit ratio was poor. I hope it go up and you recover, the future is always uncertain

Hey Neos fam , i was surprised in a good way with gameplay of your metaverse !! I'm relly like your project , it's the best open world metaverse project i'v even seen

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It was one of my first crypto transactions so yah, I know I should have sold for profits.. but everything looked good. But I know that's the way it is. Would be nice to see the project lift off again and hopefully my $184 can go back up to something worth pulling back out.

Is this the dip?? Can I buy now???

This is a pretty nice dip right now if you ask me.

Great dip. I heard if you put in 10 eth, you'll get 12 eth back...

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english?

buy buy buy

Not now

I feel like this is quite undervalued

team needs to sort out their differences and this will be great

Stop thinking the Neos team gives a shit about any of you. They casually mock NCR holders along with the community in private.

they think you buying crypto is a capitalist pig move and you should be living at home or already have a chushy software engineer job like most of them, spending your free time having cybersex in VR as a cartoon animal instead of investing in things.

Karel is the only one who actually has sympathy for NCR holders. Sorry but we'll have to wait till he wins this legal case before NCR can improve. I'm sorry but that just seems to be how it is. There's always risk of a worse case scenario and thats kinda what happened here.

ouch..

Casually? Hah. Most of them passonitly despise crypto and crypto investors. They were coming out of the wood works to jump for joy and laugh at everyone when then coin tanked. There are some exceptions.

The big secret tho? The ones who hate NCR the most also made the most off of it at the peak price.

I get you're venting, but that's absolutely not the case :< I'm sorry you feel so alienated...

Yeah I saw their behavior, they were lowkey gloating about the situation they created, and regular member friends of the devs would hint at the dev's intent during heated discussions in the discord

But like, there are no monsters here. Everyone has their reasons, and honestly the terrible thing is they are all going to be entirely understandable.

so it wasn't just devs, but their friends too it seems, which is a shitty situation for all the rest of us

I appreciate your words and trying to understand all the parties involved, but I can't pretend that people had good intents. Can't pretend that Froox's first proposed solution wasn't to give NCR holders the axe.

Can't pretend Geenz didn't come in here to concern-gloat ans can't pretend he didn't flatly say "we don't care about NCR"

That really wasn't his first solution. It still isn't. They are working with a bad situation, but they've never just thrown any of the community under the bus. We have to work with imperfect information and the intersection of both professional and personal grievances. But it is absolutely true that none of the people at the table are shooting for anything less than the best outcome they think they can get. They may not have the same vision as to what that is, but no one is just looking to see it burn.

It gets really frustrating to not feel heard, it gets really frustrating to feel constantly blamed for things outside your control. Everyone who is emotionally invested in the future of the platform is feeling that right now. You can't really engage in the conversation or have engaged with the conversation without someone blaming the whole thing on you, your friends, or people nebulously grouped with you.

But everyone involved is still human. More than that, everyone involved is complicatedly tied up in the tangle of financial, material and social factors at the heart of the current situation. There isn't a single person at the table that is somehow isolated from the effects rippling through the community. It is no more true that Froox does not care about what is happening to you than it is that you do not care about his mental and physical well being.

Of course they care. Of course you care. But you're both going to feel the effects differently. You are both going to look for a way to ride out the stress and uncertainty. Wether that be venting to the void or looking for validation through finding common pain points with your friends.

I know you're right, and I know with circumstances aside Froox only wants to be friendly and positive.

I support Karel very much. In the future, the Internet will definitely be web3. Now all kinds of big companies are seeking to transform to the blockchain. This is a direction that will definitely eliminate many losers.

I just feel ill inside when I see posts in here of people not knowing what to expect, genuinely asking "whats the future of this thing I put money into" with worry, and on the other end I see Karel being treated like absolute shit everytime he opens his mouth and Ive seen that for around 4 months now.

I don't feel pain for NCR's value, I have very little of the stuff, but I just don't want any party to get away with what I perceive as a rugpull

I want to believe that the Neos team wishes they could have a solution that sees caring for thr holders as an obligation they can fulfill, but their actions leading up to that early march announcement paint a different picture in my head

also I'm sorry you exert the effort to respond to me

I think I get that. It's become absolutely toxic. It's honestly mellowed out a lot compaired to a few months ago, but it still flares up. This situation sucks. It's stopped pretty much everyone in their tracks. People put a lot of hope and faith into a situation that now appears to be falling apart before our eyes and all we can really do is watch and wait to pick up what remains. No one knows what that will look like. But honestly, that's sort of the universal condition. No one is getting what they wanted and worse yet there is no end in sight. We are stuck in a slow motion car crash and it may take years for us to feel safe rebuilding the damn thing with the future tied up in what looks to be a contentious legal battle.

I am beyond upset about that. My home is in shambles and all the work my team did is teetering on a cliff. But I know no one still around really did anything with the intent of swindling me, or jeopardizing my ability to make a living doing what I want to do. I am not so uncritical to not think there really were some people just here to pump and dump damn the consiquences, but if there were such people thay have long since left.

No, I'm Irick? Not really sure how to answer that one to be honest.

I've been active in the Neos Developemnt community for a long time. I helped run Mystic Forge and I've worked witth the Neos Team members on various projects both on my own and in my capacity as a mentor volunteer.

I'm also a team member on CytraX, a board member of N1ARA, and a team lead in Group ID Zero. I spend a lot of time on and in Neos and I suppose I'm observant.

What happened to Mystic Forge? It kind of just dissappear one day.

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I can't speak for everyone, we published the Rise public playtest and then the unpleasentness sort of landed on the doorstep. Coffee is still working on Unity projects independently, he was getting frustrated with the limitations of the engine as well as the situation with Neos and wanted a break where he could feel more self-directed. The team is till doing background maintenance on our published worlds, but the Neos releases we had in the pipeline aren't really seeing any work at the moment. The situation could change, and I'd really like to see it change. We had a /lot/ of stuff in the pipeline and I'd be very sad if no one else got to see any of it.

Is ncr dead? I lost 90eth

I can't exactly blame him if he chooses to walk away from Omelas.

Won't everyone benefit once they put their egos to the side and comprimise on a united development plan for NEOS? The founder egos are ruining their chances to build something unique and revolutionary

Legal battles will ruin the efforts the team, founders and community have made over the last few years as well as ruin the reputation of the founders such that their journey in crypto will be over as no decent investors will go near individuals with such a track record

I believe the only solution is for founders to come to a reasonable agreement and move forward with the NEOS metaverse!!

Karel

part of the issue is we have a community at odds with each other and disagreements in this era aren't something we can easily reconcile or just accept as texture on things

it's not just the dev's egos that lead up to this I guess

it's the community's too

The community just needs to support a peaceful resolution imo. That's the only way this will get solved

The community is probably a fraction of what it will be in the future if this is successful and the morale will be boosted once we see some solid progress being made once this is behind us

We are one of the few projects with an actual product and massive potential

Working on that is the key

well half of the community wants nothing less than crypto to bw removed entirely, as crypto is a pseudo-political proxy issue or something now in the minds of many young people

so I don't know if a resolution can exist that doesn't throw the investors to the wolves and simultaneously doesn't upset the discord.

I mean, best I can hope for is for people to grow bored of this not-real political issue, maybe when ETH 2 comes out, but even then I think it's an emotional argument and that may not matter to them

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The people who don't want crypto can just ignore the crypto, they have no money invested so they have nothing to loose. My opinion is crypto is fundamental to the widespread adoption and future of metaverses in general.

That's a really good idea

Karel ❤️ Froox NCR 🌙

It does. I would not mind working with them to make that happen. I have business ideas of my own. Making Neos successful would both enable me the funding to start prototyping, and allow me to do with Neos one of the main things I love about it. Unleash my creativity in the most intuitive ways, so I can test my product's integration with a live Metaverse, and develop for my product on the platform!

The lack of professional atmosphere though means I may need to seperate myself from the Metaverse Idea and build a custom Enterprise oriented program to provide people a professional atmosphere to test my products with.

I know that Neos really loves its Community... That's why one thing which could ultimately work to everyone's benefit would be a kind of zoning system (and this is a still-forming idea so lots of room for change and growth)

This would work similarly to different distros of Linux. Community Leaders could host Servers with collections of worlds in them. They could customize the theme and layout and make choices about features, like adding new ones via a kind of modding system perhaps, and disabling them as well.

That way, if you are seeking a professional environment and want to see worlds and features that are aligned with more Enterprise level interests... You could do that.

And if you wanted a build with no NCR functionality at all, you could do that.

If you wanted to load it full of NCR features, that's also an option.

And if you wanted to enjoy the fun and awesome communities that exist in various corners of Neos and just be chill and casual, you can do that too and not be bothered with trying to act professional when you're in your off hours.

All kinds of possibilities and Froox can get his vision, and Karel can get his one too.

It would all be under one big Neos umbrella too, and all interconnected so you could use an enterprise build to go and travel roleplaying karaoke bar where people are pretending drinking virtual beers is making them drunker and half the people are drunk behind the headset too, or something crazy like that

There is a business oriented universe currently. Purchasing a professional license gives you access to it. It's also how the educational product works, with institutions hosting their own universes.

I had heard of the business license, but it has its own universe?

Oh I see, hosting their own. I'd love to be able to access them. I'd love for the chance to study anything I want in VR and get the practical experience!

Yes. Though the feature is underutilized. I know how it works, but have not set up a multi-universe system because of the unclear feature tiers. Very few users are aware of its existence outside the fulldive community.

I would honestly like to see the concept evolve a bit more tword the sort of federation model we see in Mastodon/Activitypub. So instead of switching between multiple universes, instances define which networks they federate with.

That would be pretty awesome! Especially if the networks get a high level of control over the way things work and such.

I often kind of wondered what it would be like to have a totally open borders territory, with regions inside of it using different styles of economies, different styles of communism, capitalism, socialism... But war was illegal. How would they interact with one another? How would they trade and mingle? Maybe they'd stop hating eachother and learn to let others live as they please if they do the same for you.

Metaverse is the perfect testing ground for such an Idea!

(Also ,any clue how I can get in with the professional and education universe scene? Without joining a University or getting a Pro License..

I definitely cannot afford either of those atm 😊

Unless the uni comes at a big discount since its much cheaper to operate)

At the moment, it is not clear if we are allowed to modify the client to have it join other universes. It appears to just be a field in the client config file but I have not tested to see if the non-pro release respects that configuration.

https://wiki.neos.com/Headless_Client/Configuration_File

https://wiki.neos.com/Startup_Config_File/en

I think people need to understand that what is happening right now is a coordinated takeover attempt that has been in the works for a long time. Both Frooxius and the volunteers have never respected Karel's position or stake in the company, and they are attempting to blackmail him into stepping down by ceasing any further development work until he's gone and has taken NCR with him. Based on Karel's previous messages in here, that is never happening and it's resulted in a progress deadlock which is now going on over 6 months. Frooxius could very much end this and move forward - as Karel has stated he has every intention of continuing the development of Neos alongside NCR. The ball is in Froox's court.

Furry team = Russia
NCR holders = Ukraine
☠ but fighting - send the reinforcements, guys, and girls.

I got banned from discord for this comment, anyone else feels like this?

Interesting

I am Furry and an NCR holder and I don't explicitly support either side here, I'm simply interested in what is going to achieve the best outcome for the most people. Im not interested in the drama. Im sorry it has happened. I feel bad for both of them as both have been treated unfairly.

So how do we fix things

Sounds fair, think a fair coin distribution reward system for devs needs to be put in place.

Sounds like we need to plan for the possible judicial dissolution of the corporation. Do we know what the contingencies are in that case?

Best not to pay them in coins but in dollars. I think they would prefer that. It can be partially funded by introducing staking rewards for Content Creators, with only a small amount being required at minimum. This would secure them better types of promotional content. Could impliment a Neos Radio and Neos TV station. As well as posters, billboards and interactable content.

This would all be done to fit several different world aesthetics and add to the immersion unintrusively. Making the world feel more real and alive.

The more you stake the higher the number of themes / popularity of themes you can share your content through (seperate from the marketplace, this would be an additional layer and can be implemented in the near future before the marketplace) and again, increasing tiers of ads, level 1 could be a poster, level 10 could be a TV ad, or what have you.

On top of this, a flat fee, the same for each type of ad and theme but the more themes you operate in, the more this fee is, as you'd be paying it per theme.

That fee would go to the developers.

Please spread the word if you like the Idea, you heard it here first. For Neos at least. The idea itself is not new.

I'm extremely against tying core platform revenue models to advertisement. Personally, I'm not looking for a kinder gentler facebook.

Literally the entire reason I'm here is because it offered a viable alternative to the model of surveillance capitalism, which i view as an existential threat.

Neos is doomed if that is their mentality. If you have a vision, if you have something you want to make happen and keep going and grow it, make it the best it can be, you have no choice but to make a business out of it.

I have no interest in "money" myself, except I do. Because I need it to fund my passions. Resources are always finite. Even renewable ones. Renewable plants for example. For food, biofuel, organic plastics... Gotta have the right atoms in the soil. Plants dont come from nowhere. They come from carbon in the air + hydrogen from water + minerals in the soil.

Eventually. Things run out.

So I need materials. I cant pull resources from thin air and if I had access to a public pool of resources... I'd... Not be very well liked to say the least.

But by making my passion a business, I can become self reliant and produce for my own needs and give people something in return for granting me that capability with their patronage. Good products. Things that make their lives better. Things that heal the planet we share.

Gotta make a business out of doing good and following your passion

If you have not engaged with this topic before I recommend The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power by Shoshana Zuboff. At the moment, I view the pervasive incentive of advertisement as inseparable from the landscape of all encompassing surveillance and behavior shaping.

Its the only way to self perpetuate and sustain growth. If growth happens, beyond anyone's control, and you cannot sustain it... You're screwed.

Who said anything about surveillance?

Im all for privacy

I only spoke of a way for creators within the community to both decorate our worlds with promotional content that actually fits the theme and adds to the aesthetic... Get themselves noticed... And pay the developers rent, food and bills.

Any data collection would be exclusively on which themes were the most commonly implimented, which themes have the most Creators promoting, and... That's pretty much it. It would all be 100% anonymous and fully transparent, anyone can go view the data.

Indeed

This is simply not true. It also goes against the fundamental proposition of the decentralized web. Growth of infrastructure should be match-step with with user growth because it is peer to peer. That's sustainable in and of itself, as projects like Mastodon have shown. I see no strong argument for inviting advertiser hegemony over the fundamental platform. We've already seen how that plays out with Youtube and Demonetization. It's unduly stifling to the goals of democratic discourse.

I find it of paramount importance that the funding for the platform is obtained directly from its users, just as I view it of paramount importance the core infrastructure be peer to peer and that we eventually release the specification as an open standard. These decisions fundamentally shape how people engage with what we are building, the medium is in fact the message.

Well, you have somewhat of a point. Just remember though. Servers cost money. Decentralisation helps there.

Fundamentally though, that's still not free. You are still needing money to sustain it. To pay rent, food, bills, to run the main servers,

I dont have much of an argument.

Just remember. The main thing this would need is people power. You need mods, admins, technicians, customer support, developers, management, file technicians, etc.

There is an argument for decentralisation to be had there, it could be made to work...

Kind of dependant on a way for people to earn money in a decentralised way though. Some people will volunteer. Not many will want to contribute a server for nothing.

So you need decentralised cashflow. Which means you will probably need crypto. Which means you will need some way to either incentivise people to contribute their money, or have some way of collecting fees.

Probably a good reason to keep NCR around and make it more functional somehow if your argument is true.

I have not been convensed the current method is insufficient. We have a cash glut, and a market place would provide a revenue source that should scale with use even if we somehow lose direct donations.

A marketplace which works better when Creators of Marketplace Content have away of getting themselves noticed without resorting to more toxic, social-media based techniques.

It very much is? It's an entire segment of the software industry. You shure you don't want to position your arguemnt in a way that at least makes some specific claim outside of 'that can't work.' Because I can just point to PWYW, full time open source development, and the mere existence of patreon to trivially disprove this claim.

If it were me in charge of such a system I'd try to make it as economically viable as I can while both being fair to the Content Creators, the Customers, and keeping everything related to privacy... Anonymous and transparent. I hate all these companies so invasively harvesting user data with all these targetted ads.

With my method, the ads are self targetting without needing data. As bad as that might sound, it would be done in a way that creates immersion and feels like you are in a real place. And if you go somewhere with a particular theme...You are probably going to enjoy content of that same theme.

Doesn't need to be more advanced than that. It's a simple fact of life. People seek out what they are interested in. Just need to allow creators to make a name for themselves by being there with their content when you seek out those same styles and themes.

This is an interesting problem, yes. Discoverability is a hard thing to solve without recreating a black box or a gameable system.

Engineers are not indistry analyists? Why would that authority be relevant?

That's a conversation I can engage with, sure. Compensation models are on the table, I just don't concede advertisement based revenue as 'the alternative' to working essentually uncompensated.

I'm much more interested in methods that grow internal (to the usebase) compensation, so the community remains resilient to hegemony.

I think we'd essentually be giving up a lot of the ability to shape our experience. The power relationship of funding can't be erased, unfortunately. Distributing the source of funding as atomically and organically as we can at least minimizes that influence.

How would you propose that exactly?

On the infrastructure side I really do like ipfs and similar solutions. I don't think we have as robust of a solution for marketplace discoverability yet. Though I do like steam's curration lists as a general model. I think that could be refined.

Either way I personally take a "go as big as you can go" mentality but that's primarily because I have my eyes on space and rockets are expensive :V

Just getting by is... Kind of depressing.

Ipfs?

It follows from the propaganda model of communication. As soon as advertisers can function as gatekeepers (e.g. demonetization) we lose our resilience to it.

I participated in the w3c ratification of ActivityPub. I have a specific agenda but it would be hard to argue I'm uninformed :) My definition of success for a project is providing a viable alternative to survailance capitalism in a way that enables the continued development and maintenance of the core service. Relative market position is immaterial to my analysis, as it is not a metric of sustainability.

All labor should be fairly compensated. Desert doesn't have anything to do with it though.

Do use a time honored hacker tradition: Mu. (Neither is a preferable outcome in the specific case we are discussing, as software development methods are not interchangeable for specific goals)

? How so. Your rehtoric assumes the goal is the existance of a thing rather than the specific characteristics of the thing. Both outcomes would specificly fail the requirements.

Type error: recived float, expected bool :3

If the end goal is compensation only, then the answer is trivially obvious.

However it would not be relevant to the discussion?

Reality is messy, and rarely rhetorically adventagious :3

The reality of these problems is that all human endeavor produces failure in greater abundance than success. The choice is arbitrary unless you are interested in playing the odds, in which case you need to define your metrics for success and optimize accordingly.

My head is trying to solve what I see as existential threats while still being able to be a computer nerd :3 I aknowlege the specific reality that my industry is contributing to the increasing socioal, economic, and enviromental stratification and I am principly interested in exploring alternitives that address those problems head on while still letting me do the beep boops.

My metrics for project success are always going to be informed by that.

At the moment, metaverse development :3

What if your end goal is ambition. What if you have more than one Idea, what if some Ideas would cost over a million dollars to produce through R&D and requires extensive physical hardware. What if you had to buy a specialised manufacturing machine for $4,000,000? What if your end goals would cost billions like building a space station on a moon to assist scientific, industrial, commercial and civilian operations in space by refuelling them on a solid body with tolerable levels of low gravity, but a very low escape velocity, allowing them to not have to use rocket stages and simply launch at a low fuel cost?

Where does that money come from?

Sometimes its enough to just make one thing and let it be a thing for a while. Sometimes you gotta go big or go home because THAT is what drives us forwards as a species

Either you win approval from a centralised authority and get all that you need, sometimes you gotta appeal to the people to vote for your ambitions with their purchasing power.