not sure about price

hopefully $10 at least.

This is the cycle of financial markets, if it rises, it must fall, and if it falls, it will rise as it did not fall

steam avg player on neos is not growing, it has been falling since Feb.

neos avg player is 165, vrchat is over 20000

within 2 years, neos should at least target 50000

doesnt matter

any product without user growth is garbage

but devs dont matter about user growth

perspective is different

somebody should have strategy about this... not saying we need to develop more

Im sure "somebody" isnt Frooxius or his friends.

None

Many games made with the unity engine are purchased and played by millions of people. However, the number of people actually using unity to create things is a much smaller number.

Comparing VRchat numbers to neos's numbers is more or less a similar comparison. VR chat users mostly experience worlds and are made by other people, but the number of other people is not the number of users.

Again, I mostly refer to how I often describe VRchat itself: it is a very well made unity scene viewer with built-in VR and multiplayer functionality, allowing multiple users to observe a rendered output of a given unity scene

In any user generated content ecosystem there needs to be a healthy balance of consumers and creators, and those creators need to have economic incentive to crowdsource the world. NCR is an important piece of the puzzle because it will encourage commercial growth of virtual goods sales and that directly impacts the revenue model of Neos.

well.. this is why neos should even have bigger users than vrchat.

so unbalanced right now.

i agree that ugc eco system will get larger and larger as time goes.. and thats why I like neos more.

vrchat easy to play so it can absorb users quickly

neos is slow for adapting, but as time passes.. it will bring even more users.
But when? how? Any strategy?

I think we will see steady growth just by providing a viable, capable alternative. We are not creating the VR market, for sure, but we are a decidedly ground-up alternative to mostly corporate platforms. Our growth factor in the social VR market is disillusionment. Which IMO is inevitable. I am mostly fine being ActivityPub vs being Twitter and the slow growth that entails, though.

Ye, a UI overhaul is some low hanging fruit. But i'd be lying if I didn't say I'd rather have LogiX collections in a janky UI atm vs a slick inventory interface XD

so there's like two camps, one that wants neos to grow and one that doesn't really care

and by grow I mean users

and thats fine I guess, but I'm slightly irked by the cope I read about that..comparing the product to other examples, or saying we're not competing with VRChat, etc

I mean, you have seen the state of the inventory system ye? XD

100%. Neos is absolutely a VRChat competitor as they both exist in the social VR space and have similar use-cases for end users despite the differences in the building pipeline. The current userbase has pushed the meme of "We're not a VRChat competitor" because the VRC user demographic entering Neos would incite an in-world cultural shift that they don't want to see happen.

yeah I just want people to be honest, not veiling it

they definitely like that small town aspect that I think ppl want to preserve but don't want to openly say that

I'd like to see Neos grow. Though I really, really want to crack growing the platform without losing the cordiality in the current culture. I am also politically motivated to keep the platform in a state that prioritizes user participation. Peer to peer as an architectural choice and guiding ethos. I feel that most of the other players in the space are chasing the sort of clearly and sharply delineated content creator/content consumer model, which does make commercialization easier but it also tends to give rise to these parasocial spaces. I see that as one of the major challenges of our time in terms of computer mediated human interaction.

that's like an internet in general problem.. or maybe just even a globalization problem

If I understand you that is

The reality is that every successful social network - be in 2D or 3D goes through a growth phase where the early adopter culture no longer scales into the mass market. I remember joining Twitter in 2007/2008 to find tech parties at SXSW and the userbase was so small you could see small event postings in the main feed. Facebook also used to be a very closed system with only .edu college emails being allowed to register. Neos will go through that as well and it's better to embrace it and plan for it vs curbing growth.

I think that's true, though I attribute that tendency to the way the modern web landscape is structured rather than an inherent aspect of networked society. I still remember the tail end of the early web era, and I've found snippets of that same culture in even large networks like Mastodon that are structured to better avoid the sort centralizing of attention and power that seem to make the other networks thrive.

Well I hope Neos brings those principles forward

I do too. I think we have a transformative potential for computer mediated interaction if we do it right. Growth is something we can manage without abdicating our responsibility to be socially conscious of the environments we are building. I think that's especially a poignant point given the facebook comparison :P let us hope the better angels of our nature prevent us from chasing engagement at the cost of our community's mental health.

at a point though, I wonder if we're just building playgrounds to try to recreate those feelings. if those tools are made but there's a conscious decision to avoid competeing, which some here see as a conscious decision to fail

We can always improve, ye. I think it's at least better than what I came to expect in VRchat, and I have a tendency to look for structural influence in such things.

you know better than me the dev's philosophy though, because I can't figure out their vision.

but I guess the mastodon of VRChat is actually something I could wrap my head around, lol.

Current Neos culture is furries standing around in sync lounge with logix spaghetti and inspectors open everywhere while new users fumble around the UI trying desperately to connect with another human to help them and then ultimately ragequitting for VRChat.

it sounds more and more like Neos consciously wants to be a layer below everything else. Like it just wants to catch those users who fall between the cracks of other platforms or something

and I don't understand the future plans where it wants to impliment some sort of secondlife inventory system and shop. Like if it did want to have those mastodon principles I dont see how it really means that sincerely and not as a cope

We had a few MMC exploring parties during that time. I'm sorry you didn't find them :< It does suck when you can't find people to share the things you find with.

because the devs choose where the development goes anyway

I mean I know, and I can accept that being what it "started" as. I think sex is kind of an important part of a compelling virtual world anyway but like Ive said before I dont want some 3D f-list client

I was gokng with rucio's group, we had it public, though it was in the evening. 19:00 EST on weekdays IIRC. Time negotiation can be a bit of a difficulty.

I don't remember the weekend times because that's when my bukld group was meeting for our projects XD

yeah there's a gated democracy inside of it that makes those decisions

so I cant really see the vision of what it wants to be aside from VRChat for power users

maybe it doesnt need a concrete vision

I think we can minimize the gatekeeping. I see that as a priority.

like I really dont know

None

Things have a long ways to go

They do. I don't think we can rush it though. At least not without giving up the ground-up organizational aspects I personally am invested in. I do recognize that's my particular interest, but I do think that there needs to be a project that provides that for the health of the 'metaverse' ecosystem.

what do you mean exactly by ground up organizational though?

I think they recognize like yeah there's some value in being small and tightly knit

Community driven development, moderation, etc. with the specific freedoms of self-hosting preserved. Like, ideally, anyone should be able to spin up their own servers and moderate them how they'd see fit (not where we are now, at least not in a user friendly way).

(We /can/ technically host an entirely 'off grid' neos session, but not without handling discovery out of band.)

yeah I know thats the elephant in the room. and afaik it's already proven to be fine to have parallel crowds in the game. Currently there's furries and japanese

and the JP seem to work hard trying to bring in new players

so I dunno, if "secondlife moms" or Horizon boomers became a group in Neos I dont see that being an issue either

The language barrier there is the primary thing. They've got to be mostly self-sufficient. I do think that's a good model long term though.

yeah, so its like the groups couldnt be anymore culturally divided so to speak, but it works very well

I feel this too, and the effects of popular western rhetoric harming them with NCR too. Where they dont have this anticrypto zeitgeist and might not understand that voices in the community were calling for them to have their purchases rendered useless under their very noses

Not really. I just think it's natural to recognize that various social groups are going to have differing social norms. I'd like to see that recognized structurally. A general network TOS is fine, i guess, but i think it's important to give communities the tools for self-moderation. Any monolithic community management strategy is going to fail my sniff test if it's the only strategy.

The only way you get that kind of consideration IMO is by soliciting active participation from the community in their own affairs. Otherwise it's a bit of an armchair exercise.

well you said it.. But so should Neos development be somewhat directed by the community? and then what is the "community" because according to them it isn't me. And if its lead by the loudest voices do they get to vote away my principles for what I want Neos to be?

Honestly IMO it's not currently there. I'd much rather see NEOS as an open source project long term. I am concerned by the potential of exactly what you are describing. At the moment we are dependant on one network of services. Community isn't a monolithic concept, and I'd rather see that reflected in how things are structured. At the moment the best I can do is try and get the hodgepodge of our community management at a more representative ratio, but I'd really, really prefer we didn't have the power imbalance that the single service provider model has.

I guess the vague point I'm making is Neos gets the luxury of saying it's all these things that it isn't yet, and at times doesn't seem to be heading toward.. and that community development really just means Froox and his friends (which I guess is fine enough as they were there first) which is a vague distinction that doesnt seem to mean anything, specially when the community grows

The biggest thing there right now for me is that the majority of the staff are community members and are still in active conversation and beholden therein. As the organization scales that will likely not be enough.

yeah I dont want to see that power balance either.. which is why I don't really agree with the SecondLife model they seem to want to take.. and that decision seems to be based off the "community's" desire to... avoid a subsection of the community...

I honestly just think it's because that's what they are used to. My specific hill isn't that hill though so *shrug*

Maybe alittle, but I think we both know why they want to go that route. Its to avoid crypto. And to avoid crypto, they say, is to avoid certain outsiders from coming in and getting the luxury of making decisions

so like... the community gets to excise members of the community they dont like so what even is the community in this "community development"

i just think trying to cultivate a specific community doesnt make sense in fairness

I mean all this aside, being real, whats best for Neos is for the feud to end

I don't know, honestly. There are definitely loud people who don't like 'crypto' the end. I can only speak to my own concerns, and those are more in avoiding a massive influx of the wider internet culture. Not 'normies' but more the terminally online culture of Twitter, 4chan, Tumblr, etc. Turf wars suck, but they especially suck when they aren't even over your turf :P That is my specific interest in keeping a 'Neos culture' even though I recognize it's not desirable to have a monolithic community. I view a lot of those platforms as toxic and the behaviors required to exist in them as maladaptive, having a distinction that those are not the norms used in this space is important to me.

Yes, but it's our terminally online culture damnit *giggles*

There are plenty of 'normies' that use neos as an educational product. I get the feeling that XYZ groups are hostile to 'normies' but uh. We are used in trade demo contexts as well as education. Not to mention the Meta Movie project. Have you had the opportunity to participate in the Meta movie project?

Well that didn't take long to prove my previous arguments... so basically, Neos is basically a terrible place for everyone because of its own creation system? Users (non creators) simply cannot tolerate, by your definition, any complexity, even if it doesn't effect them? I mean, that is possible.
Even with the UI system being another concern (no one is going to argue that), you still seem fixated on a particular culture, when to even use Neos... what you described is non-exclusive.

here are the hurdles as I can see them:
1) UI intuitiveness isn't the best. Most other systems that do well have good labeling and assistance measures like tooltips. Of course, this also would be difficult to get going, due to the many translations Neos has, so adding additional help layers also means adding additional translations. In addition, creating a unified UI library is always a struggle, since you have to accomidate for everything the older system could already do, but also do it in a way more can recognize.
2) While it is fair to point out that Neos offers financial incentive, it also must acknowledge that VRC already HAS financial incentive, albeit indirectly. Most resources on VRC that are purchased come from Gumroad, Booth, maybe a Patreon and maybe an itch.io page. All these services allow easy ability to purchase and receive earnings. If NCR has any hope of being successful, THAT is what it is competing with. If the process is more complicated, creators will simply not bother. (This has happenned before on the previous platform I worked for, and it is a MAJOR reason the platform failed.)
3) In addition, Neos itself, despite any financial standpoint, must compete with delivery of content. Jump on VRC, and you'll find people putting up with Unity SDK's mega download, the constant changing VRC SDKs, and the importing process that previously involved importing several libraries and shader packages. In otherwords, people had to jump through a lot of hoops just to access the content. However, this content is already packaged and prepared by the creator. This is where Neos begins to crumble, since there are no ways to package and deliver content in a similar way. If Neos is to do well, it has to compete with the setup process for a traditional VRChat creation process. If it's too complicated for creators or is a hassle to deliver content, they will stick with VRChat and Chillout. If users getting their purchases requires them to drag floating hands and having no advertised features working right away, they'll ask for a refund.

eh fair... should have broken it down

TLDR:
1) UI is going to be a pain to fix, but is indeed an issue.
2) VRChat already has financial incentives, so you have to compete with what already exists and do better.
3) You also have to compete with content delivery and content preparation that VRC already has. Too complicated to bring in and deliver to paying customers, and content creators won't bother. Too difficult to bring in and inability to access advertised features, and buyers will demand refunds.

You /can/ package things for neos. The two methods I've seen are: 1) linking to a public folder or 2) packaging the bjson description of the object, though this is a bit more technically involved (though a mod exists to simplify it)

So there IS a Json system... Interesting...

'Maker culture is ruining the platform' is a pretty hot take, ngl :P

I agree with you. The market is complicated to understand

That’s why you need good UI/IX designers on your team

To make the design human

Yeah. Neos is great, but now I’m not sure about Neos future unless they solve their founders problems, get big money from VC and hire great designers and engineers.

1) No... it's a hurdle, but it's one of the hurdles. Language binding is a fickle thing, but ensuring functional matching to older systems, or recomposing them for a newer system, is where things get tricky. Some buttons in Neos has odd functions that feel exclusive to themself (like the New Folder button also acting as an export/save function)

The rhetorical nuance would be acknowledged if it wasn't so blatantly speculative and counter to my experience.

Then pop on sometime and I'll teach you how to open the inventory :P

2) To succeed, it will have to be as simple as possible. Each step involved is a hurdle that creators and buyers will have to deal with. My previous employer was ETH based, and the complaints on getting in, with JUST ETH, was something I had to listen to every day. This was back in 2017-2018, when it was still in the being praised phase.
Right now, I can spin up a Gumroad page, link my PayPal, and I'm done. People can pay with PayPal or direct credit and have their item in seconds. PayPal creation time is minimal and many people have an account.
THAT is your competing purchase loop.

You got the benifit of the doubt, but even I can be disabused of notions of good faith.

because how a user gets their item matters, and that starts with getting the payment started. For other services, there are no additional steps. Neos and SL both have in-game currencies. In SL, you buy L$ on the LindeX Exchange, which can be done with PayPal. You can then spend the L$ right away. Selling L$ on the exchange gives you USD credits, which can be processed via Tilia. Tilia then offers a 1099-K for tax purposes.

Neos requires an ETH wallet be setup and have a balance. This can be from an exchange that offers wallet services, or even PayPal, but in all of them, you have to buy it first. Once purchased, you then put it into a given address when you sign in, which is then processed... eventually. I don't know if it's still manually done or not. Anyway, take the NCR you get and buy something.

Cashing out is the same ordeal but backwards and can be easy to mess up. I know because I have messed it up, and my background is from a blockchain based metaverse engine. Idealy, you request the NCR balance to be sent to a wallet that is already linked with some kind of exchange. If you don't, you run into a weird issue where you need ETH to pay gas fees to move the NCR... or basically money to use money. Take the NCR and sell it on the exchange. For tax reasons, we'll just say that the age and value of the NCR is upon being received. The exchange should hopefully notate this as well. I'm also going to assume you can just exchange NCR for USDC, which can then be converted to USD. Get it to PayPal or your financial output of choice. Now you have money.

Ask any VRChat creator if that is somehow ideal, and they'll question if you have a mental problem. So if you want to bring in VRC content creators, you have to beat a payment cycle that is literally "Link PayPal and sit back" or "Link PayPal and sell internet money on an easy to use exchange with no BS inbetween" (in the case of SL/Tilia).
Unless the intention is to not deal with VRChat's market at all, WHICH is possible and could work out, but you have to pick which you want. If you want to praise VRChat's success and claim competition, realize what makes it succeed.

Right now, Neos doesn't have an automated content delivery system yet, which is why I left it out. That has different hurdles, but none of them are payment related and was out of the scope. To be fair, if NCR is streamlined and made to be easy, that'd actually be fine and no one is really complaining about that. If anything, the complaints are about how right now it's complicated, which is why it isn't viewed to be ideal.

As for the over analyising... that was my job on the previous platform. I took down customer complaints, bug reports, and safety concerns all the time, even off duty. Someone turned their wallet file into dust due to reinstalling the client? I'd be the next Elon Musk if I was given overtime payment on handling those. Someone can't get a world running? Documented and usually helped out. Marketplace problem? Investigated and notated. Take everything and present it to the big boys in the virtual meetings.

Heck, even after being let go, the team often had no choice but to request that I'd help out with an issue, since server operation and technical support was my strong point. This is why I had a rather high balance in their cryptocurrency on the day they shutdown.

I did some dev work, but I wasn't paid for that. I was only paid as a support and engagement associate. Part Walmart Greeter, part GeekSquad. Constant live support that was provided in-world for new and old users alike.

Spent roughly 4-8 hours a day sitting in front of a virtual desk or standing at a starting area to help out new users, who often hadn't even tried VR before, so being versed with every headset was a priority. During low times, I wrote utility scripts that focused on user engagement and experience improvements, often based on the tickets I documented and noted during my sign-off summaries.

(And yes, all those hours were entirely in VR)

I did mostly bug fixing and addressed feature concerns on behalf of community requests. Some issues were solvable via scripting in JS or required hard level coding via C++. Sometimes this also involved cleaning other people's code to comply with the established ESLINT rules of the project.

The project was open source, so there were community developers and contributors (where I technically fell into place, despite my support role) and then there were the core developer and engineering team.

A major benefit to being support was that I had access to speaking with the core team directly, so any code that I submittted I could get prioritized for review, and also help identify other community contributors who's fixes either needed tweaking (90% of the time ESLint related) or was ready for testing and I could run said tests, document the results, and supply them to the team. I also could view bug tickets and link the code as supplied solutions.

So, core developer: no; community contributor: yes; support: yes

(Though the irony is I wrote most of the support tools, to the point where even after I was no longer on the support team, because I hosted the files, they were still using them. I didn't really complain, because I optimized the snot out of them, so they used next to no bandwidth and ran well. So I lost maybe a penny in bandwidth per month. Oh well.)

None

Hello

I happen to have a question/need help with figuring out an avatar thing

what's the issue?

this is for NEOS VR right? first off lol

Correct. This is the Neos VR telegram group

I'm curious on if a VRchat avatar edited in Unity is functional for NEOS vr. the model 'should' work but it's not been tested in VRchat since the dumb 'Visitor' role stuff :\

If the avatar is a commercially purchased avatar from say GumRoad or Booth, and assuming it doesn't rely on complex shader functions, then it should work fine.

Any issues during the import might be, at best, related to naming on the skeleton of the model. This is the larger culprit that people run into issues with.

The other is just issues with animation controllers that the avatar might rely on, such as gesture control for unique animations, if that is a selling point that you want to see also exist when brought into Neos

it's custom made (originally from Blender) and then edited to work in Unity so it should work

i just need to figure it out

Generally speaking, if you brought it into Unity and Unity could easily humanoid it, then it should work fine within Neos. Any animations you created within Unity will have to be remade for Neos, but for base functionality, you won't have to worry about that

hope i can get it to work. got some friends who should be able to help. Thank you ^_^

my dragon bard shall be fabulous in all the VRworlds!

If you run into any issues, feel free to give me a poke :)

depends on time zones lol

i have to find some good instructions

Very true. There will usually be mentors online if you need some help. You can also post in the discord's help channel or here if you run into problems.

oh i didn't find the discord XD

No worries :) https://discord.gg/cDvuzN43 if you'd like to pop in

thankies

probably won't be able to ask tonight. Yay D&D (Which would be fun to have in VR) so i'll be on tomorrow

I'm actually working on some D&D in vr stuff. Though there is already a pretty good d&d world called DelVR.

😮

i shall look before my session tonight. thx

:) have a great session! you dming it?

nope i'm player. Half elf Ranger with Drake companion

Awesome :D good luck then! May you be awarded with much inspiration and advantage :3

thank you

I'll stick my neck out and say quoting ugandan action movies while dressed as a misshapen knuckles isn't racist imo

Are you genuinely unaware of the discourse surrounding the use of this meme?

what's there to say about it?

i swear that meme is racist X_X

seems rude

and insensitive

the way it's voiced is odd as hell

https://kotaku.com/racist-jokes-keep-showing-up-in-overwatch-league-broadc-1822376195
https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/ugandan-knuckles-meme-overwatch/
https://gizmodo.com/does-razer-know-it-posted-a-racist-meme-1822485212

Long story short: It is a dog whistle now.

I see

I guess now it is

No

Nothing noteworthy

Is there any progress in ncr? What are they doing?

Check in next year at this time...

None

that is not da wae my bruddah

I mean, I work on personal projects outside of my company time. Nothing wrong with that, and can't see anything wrong if someone spun up a seperate patreon just to fund offshoot things that aren't officially part of a main system.

"I don't have any specific project right now that I can talk about and I can't make any promises, but if you'd like to support my personal efforts and help me fight for what I believe, I'll appreciate every cent and pour it into my and my team's efforts where I can."

Very strange wording for a personal project Patreon, considering recent events

What's that have to do with anything?

...here we go again...

dev team wasn't getting shit, so changes nothing really

Sooo wheres that money coming from?

but yeah... good luck finding another team. You have to have people who can build outside of the Unity system... or just start from scratch.

if you need a baseline, I can recommend an engine, and it's even open source and had crypto support from the beginning. Might need to patch some security concerns but...

You realize that's fairly easy to find.

People flip burgers for more than that.

Sure is gaslights in here

are people still simping and defending karel and putting all the blame on froox..?

Yikes. Its time to.. wake up.

it's okay... seen this before when the previous platform died off. "Oh, we can still save it, just upvote and fight the haters, they don't know anything. Find new team members, we'll even code for free..."

Hes only been trolling so far

Do you guys like have little meetings before you all come in here at literally the same time and plan out your gaslighting or do you guys just wing it because you're so good at it?

You do notice that there are over 300 people in here?

no... this is new news to me. Also I assess from my own standpoints, thank you.

Yup

And most of us have side conversation going on

Talking about the gaslighting

And how this channel was meant to get away from that on the discord

Trying to turn something someone said around on them is literal gaslighting

Everything you do is gaslighting

It's just funny that you think no one recognizes that

Oh yeah Lucaedr is an evil mastermind. im scared.

Ah yes .Breathing.

Saying your not doing it intentionally is gaslighting

bringing up gaslighting... is gaslighting... it's a never winning cycle... it just boils down to whoever doesn't care the soonest

You live in his mind rent-free, oh no!

Statement is classic gaslighting

being realistic is gaslighting, being on planet earth is gas lighting, looking outside... I mean, we can be here all day

(Actually, that'd be kind of neat to figure a way to take a 360 camera and send its data as a skybox)

You literally pretending not to know what an echo chamber was or what quarantining a channel meant in the context of a conversation regarding toxic behavior. Which no one believes for a second. Only an idiot, or someone living under a rock wouldn't know what those meant. Hence the gaslighting.

https://images.app.goo.gl/RvB7vBcQjkQriWrY7

You literally use every single one of these techniques for gaslighting almost every day on here. Anytime any one tries to discuss anything.

if that's the case, my employer is a fantastic gaslighter

You should file a grievance with HR

Anyway let's talk about the new Patreon!

I'd like to hear more about these projects

Okay so i have a genuine question.

I always see messages saying the devs being replaced would be the best, but what if karel was replaced? i know for a fact there are people that could do his part leagues better, and actually be professional and good for the project. You really never seen how unprofessionally he's handled things?

You underestimate the hivemind.

I can see the benefits for both Karl and Froox to hire other people to be CEO and CTO respectively while they remain board members

Frankly the best situation would be the entire company being bought out and everyone getting replaced.

I also see a benefit in them selling equity off to new investors to be on the board

children mad at wildlife again nothing new for $NCR means nothing

Because c-level positions are replaced all the time. Karl would still be a board member and so would Froox as long as they have the equity

i'd be happy if someone more capable took karel's place.

we might be bullish then.

And I would be happy if someone more capable replaced Froox as CTO. He is more of a project lead anyway

sadly, that describes... pretty much all platforms at this point. Remember, everyone else is still in alpha/early access as well... with most things in the "when we get to it" responses for various things. I mean, it took VRC a whole year to actually make due on their promise of new features for their VRC+ program... just in time for people to reconsider renewing.

i was responding to both of you 👁👄👁

Okay, go ahead and name a platform that is actually functionally completed.

Rec Room

Roblox

VRchat is functional and expanding

VRChat is still early access

And Neos is an alpha

Rec Room is geared towards activities.. not a metaverse... granted, it has come a long way, espceially with user content creation.

in that case, Neos is a completed product because it functionally works, as would the defunct High Fidelity VR and all its forks

Rec room is very much A metaverse

Horizen.

oh fuck, you just had to bring THAT one in...

This is incorrect

I'll have to poke Rec Room again. It was pretty barebones before, but I do remember hearing about how well it's pulling itself off, especially with user content

I'm not kidding. Just give the entire project to a team that will take advantage of the potential here.

Hiring new devs would not be a bad thing.

The one with the flying torsos?

how is VRC not bleeding money? The amount they receive from VRC+ is not enough to cover basic hosting fees, let alone bandwidth requirements for everyone's 100MB waifus

I think you use language like bleed to try an paint a company spending their development capital on development as a negative when it's literally what start ups do and Neos should be doing.

Someone want to explain to this person what series D funding is?

VRC+ generates enough revenue for investors to poor millions of.dollars into the project.

someone want to explain server hosting? Like the thing I specialized in back on HiFI? Servers are not cheap, especially with VRC's scope. VRC has no real income that is effectively paying for its expenses. VRC+ isn't enough, at least when public hopping and observing who has and has not gotten it.

yeah, and you know what investors want? Look around this chat.

They want returns at some point. It aint' a free for all

that money dries up

unless, you know, Microsoft or someone buys them. I mean, look at AltSpace

....damn, I should have sent them my resume and not VRC after HiFi went under

eh... back then, maybe. Issue is that I'm happy with my job now

nice~

Congratulations

Microsoft, is barely maintaining alt-space beyond small updates and keeping it quest friendly.

fair, but I still fondly remember the staff meeting I was in when they were shutting down, before Microsoft stepped in. It was all about how to best assist people transitioning over to other platforms, since AltSpace was used mostly as a pure social environment. We had to brainstorm many ideas on things they would perhaps want, such as improvements to nearby local search

How about WE ALL take chill pills stop bitching, stop gaslighting each other and stop all cringey ass back and fourth. Like I legitimately want to have discussions in here even when there are opposing viewpoints. But everytime I try to I get pulled in and end up being a dick too and I'm tired of it

They still have not even fixed the re- centering issue and the Microsoft intergration is abysmal.

oh boy... that recentering thing I do fondly remember being fickle, before the acquisition and after (I had to attend an event there onbehalf of the VR company, mostly to gather ideas and hear the discussion)

It's still stuck in 2015

at least everyone isn't still chess peices?

The CTO starting a personal Patreon for his side projects is interesting. And no we don't only talk about NCR we talk about plenty of things. Like what can be done or should be done to improve the current situation or what can be done to improve Neos or keep new users interested

I've literally never talked about NCR without talking about the Neos platform. Because increasing integrity and viability in the platform is directly related to the coin value

Or, it's a tax thing.

Apply pressure to do what exactly?

This and the corporate tax rate is mad high, buybacks might be cheaper then paying that rate.

actually... weird question: would the buyback be considerred acquiring capital? So... wouldn't that just reset the capital's age, since at one point it was sold out and is now being baught again, assuming tax speak on a general team?

The Crypto holding are in CR. Perhaps you should put a pin in calling for people to put pressure on Karel until you are aware of the specifics

I don't mean that in a dickish way just we don't need more speculation on things and misinformation

....could holding and processing just be separately handled? I mean, people set up holding locations outside of their normal living area all the time, and this is the digital age so... pulling a digital asset and requesting an action I'd assume wouldn't care if you were in the UK, CR, or one of Elon Musk's satelites

This is not how incorporation works.

alright, well that answers that part. So whereever holding is done, has to also be where processing goes... makes sense and is simple

As far as I understand it there is a holding company that is in the CR, while the company that owns that holding company is in the UK. But don't quote me on that.

Also I see a lot of people rabble rousing about buybacks

Buybacks are not bad

It could be for tax reasons

It also shows that the CEO and company itself has faith in its own product. If youview an ICO like an IPO like you all should then it is no different than any company buying back its stock.

If I thought the buy backs were a bad sign and and bad for Neos I wouldn't be bothering trying to actively bring users onto the platform and onboarding them for a basic user experience like I have for the past couple months. WHich is why I am so critical of the UI/UX issues because its definitely an uphill battle

anyway I won't be able to respond quickly for the rest of the day, any of you feel free to PM otehrwise

Happens all the time. Apple, Sony, even Exxon and BP have all been doing buybacks recently. People who aren't finance savvy see it as wasting money but it's just transferring capital back into your own company because you believe it's going to do well. It's a bullish signal.

Im no crypto nerd, but neos isnt doing well, and the buybacks took up a majority of the funding provided by crypto. Thats my issue with buybacks.

I think Karel is thinking more long-term. If (and when) there is a resolution or some sort of forward momentum, going from 30 cents to $10 again has a much higher potential growth rate for the capital he's holding vs keeping it in ETH, which might 5x at best in the same time period.

not to mention... companines buy back their stocks, yes... but stocks can fluxuate in value and that's understandable. But stocks aren't a currency, and that's what NCR is... it's Neos's currency... so seeing uncertain changes like this only makes people more uneasy. Say it's building confidence in the company internally all you want, but when the general public's viewpoints don't match up, especially those actively on the platform... a lack of communication, especially how buybacks will help out should that be true, isn't doing so well

Hard to tell. Right now feels like short term attempts to keep price up, but who really knows. We had million dollar buybacks when price was dropping originally

you do realize for the vast majority of its time Neos wasnt peofitable and couldnt, as in it was impossible, pay a salary to anyone? And the devs turnes against him the moment NCR secured the funding for the project.

there's more to this breakup than a one sided story and I'm sick of it getting presented as such

Maybe? Sure. But they'd have to agree to some pretty terrible terms and honestly I think the community would have hated him anyway if he implimented anything crypto related.

But the issue is more that Karel has ALREADY spent years of his life working on this project, despite vast attempts to discredit him and pretend he hasn't and thats not fair.

the truth is: the two parties absolutely could set things aside and get along, establish terms for one another and repair their greivences, but the constant smearing and toxic complaining from the community will not allow that

So I don't know what people expect

and what's going on isn't exactly gaslighting, its both sides trying to engage in character assassination

the most egregious gaslighting, imo, was the attempts and trying to get the community to think a third party NCR was anything except a death sentence for it

and sadly many tried very hard to push that belief onto others in bad faith, knowing themselves that it was trying to peddle financial suicide.

Actions like that from the community should atleast be apologized for if things are ever to come together

I don't know about the buybacks either, its the one thing I think should be talked about imo. If we didn't have the noise of constant character assassination going on then maybe we all could have had a genuine conversation about it and asked Karel to explain his logic and give our input.. But no one can stop insulting or being accusatory for a moment to even do that

When everyone is suddenly shouting you down out of nowhere, hating your guts, mocking your appearance, praying for your misfortune, how the hell are you supposed to have a conversation with that kind of mob, or even work toward repairing your behavior or leverage input to make better business decisions?

Obviously buybacks at certain levels were mistakes, but that needs to be accepted with certain knowledge that the team ans community were jointly attacking NCR within their own community. Also that I dont think people predicted the winds of the market to change just yet, which slashed values by great degrees in short order

It is simple. All of the neos funding is worthless unless NCR succedes. That's the point of the buybacks. It is a very clever, if not a little dickish play.

I mean, that's my headcannon too. I think that anger syndromes can take over a group's discourse and force people down a path. Its very obviously illustrated within the discord community

There is no evidence to suggest there was anything wrong with Karel and Frooxius's relationship until the ICO became successful.

If anything, there is proof to suggest the opposite.

and the grievences that were cited werent between them, but between Karel and others like Geenz and Nex. Or so thats what we know so far. And many of those grievences are probably very legit, but not something impossible to work through.

so I think, atleast

And I've heard very clearly that Nex and Karel had apologized to each other

If I'm to believe what I've been told by others, and I do

well he's treated me rudely too, so I can definitely imagine a situation where he's escalated tensions

well, I only know him from my brief interactions

thats what my imagination tells me, but its easy to let your imagination go alittle wild when the situation is so unfair imo

Like every other minor issie has been blown up, I can see things having snowballed and now egos are at play and fueling a push to out someone without concerns to who it hurts.

Maybe at best we can look at this ugly, painful period as a neccessary moment internally leading to understanding and concrete terms for everyone

thats like, the most optimistic outcome I can possibly imagine

Organizational transparency can't be an afterthought. IMO Karel failed to communicate his strategy for positioning the project clearly and lost the faith of the stakeholders resulting in divestment. The team then publicly distanced themselves from Karel for their stated reasons, which resulted in further divestment. Then the market crashed. The intervening narratives that arose are just ripples and personal justifications.

and here we are

But Id like to point out

it's really convenient to point out the inexperienced business decisions made, but ignore that all of that capital was created to begin with, and ignore his role in creating it

There was a time when a spotlight on Karel was fair but I think we moved past it months ago and we're just accepting a destructive cycle

There are many kinds of capital. Some capital is used up in the process of production. Some capital is durable and will last throughout the process. The implication you seem to be positing here is that we should look at the eth and other assets and see a metric of success. But mere accumulation is not the goal. It can in fact be counterproductive.

If you manage to raise 20 million USD in capital for your pizza business and decide to reinvest it in cheese, dough and sauce, but only have one oven... Are we really ignoring your hustle when we question the distribution of funds?

By all means compensate Karel for the time and effort they've put into the project. But if none of the other members of the project will work with him and he's bringing 'inexperienced business decisions' to the table. Like... I'm proud of him for buying all that cheese?

Maybe there would be a point if the team was admittedly fighting the concept of new hires, and that the moment they got all that new cheddar, the drama didn't start and an anti-dairy fad was allowed to use the community as a venting ground to attack the new customers

the characterizations haven't helped to get people to understand a nuanced situation... they've only made things worse

The core issue is really seems like it's "should Karel be booted from the company" and we can ask that question in good faith and attempts to rush in and push an angle are all that's happened

Maybe tell me what you think, all things considered, had Karel crossed a grave line and his contributions to the project be outweighed by whatever it is he did, and should he be exiled from the project he spent years on? that's a legit question

And how does that measure up to the fates of the holders caught in the crossfire? (or honestly, why did they EVER need to be pushed into the crossfire I have no idea other than pure malice against those supporting Karel or an oppertunistic attempt to go with the current fad and go anti-crypto in hopes certain people will like it).

I don't like the developments as they stand, it is causing chaos, but what the heck are you expecting here? 16 people who also contributed to the project don't like the direction, feel like they are unappreciated, and don't feel like they are being given a voice. Karel is a part of Neos, Karel's vision shaped it's journey. So did froox, raith, geenz, outsider, coffee, veer, probableprime, shifty, canadian git, chroma, nex, ryuvi, theo, lacy, dante and rue. So like, honestly... that's my metric. I'm not going to deny the history of the project. I'm not going to pretend it's a situation that can't be complicated by the corporate veil and the messy nature of ICOs.

But the project is in consensus as to it's direction by any reasonable metric. I respect that. I will also respect the right of those who felt swindled by the events to argue that and seek compensation. What I won't argue or understand is the notion that any single contributor to the project has a claim strong enough to somehow delegitimate an N-1 consensus.

Youre perhaps one of the few voices that actually presents it like this in a fair way, but even you seem to not want to acknowledge the depth of character assassination that's been utilized against Karel in the background, and the many incentives people have to out him that have nothing to do with the quality of his work and more to do with personal feelings. And as much of an inconvenience it is that he has that strong of a claim, the opposite is just as unfair when all of those people you mention are Froox's friends. And the notion that all of Froox's handpicked friends agrees with him means I shouldn't question the details of the falling out?

The only relevant people listed are Karel and Froox. You may not like to hear it but the company doesn't belong to anyone else you listed.

It was their choice to volunteer their contributions. Sorry but the real world doesn't work that way. If everyone was properly contracted this wouldn't be an issue. And it was Froox's job to do that. If there was no funding to do that beforehand, then It was still on Froox to ensure that everyone knew they were volunteering their contributions.

I don't honestly know Karel well enough to comment on his character, and I don't like the fact that this is going to haunt everyone involved because of the permanency of the internet. These people are people, and they should be able to have a falling out without the world watching but here we are in the awkward period of social development where technology has outpaced our norms. Just like we saw in this, ten years down the road you bet someone is going to dig this up entirely discounting the growth that could have happened in the meantime.

But I view it as immaterial to the question of project governance. I don't see the extraordinarily strong claim. Not through the inconvenience of it's existence, but because it has yet to be argued as anything other than an assertion. I understand how the 'office politics' can shake out to the contributing members siding with froox, by all means we can question the process especially as it relates to establishing bylaws but we would have to be starting from the assumption that the team's interest in the project is not legitimate. This is extremely uncharitable.

I am not discounting Karel's legitimate interest in the project when I run my moral calculus. I don't think there is a compelling reason to be uncharitable to either party.

Well things heal, and some stories take a long time to become funny in hindsight, but it happens

You are arguing the technicalities of law. Insofar as that goes, management is in deadlock and the organization is effectively dead. Cool. That's how things work in the real world, alright, sure, where does that get us? Equitable settlement in corporate dissolution?

Certainty not a continuing project. I can defer to this vision of future events, assuming that the game of chicken plays out and neither flinch. In which case... why stick around? I am invested in the project and it's future. I am interested in the question of how it moves forward and in acknowledging the legitimacy of my own interest in the future of Neos, I ask what is a fair way to move forward.

I really hope so. This sucks. I don't want it sticking around any longer than it has to.

if it's allowed to heal...

It seems like the attitude is that compromise is weakness, so we should double down on character attacks, double down on seething over the situation, and build up, brick by brick, this story that actions are irredeemable.

I haven't seen any effort to say otherwise, just smug confidence that their side will win

and this is a conversation I'm only really seeing here. If I peek over to Discordland, its an obsessive echochamber and I've seen like maybe 3 at most outsiders try to say there is another way of looking at this.

so we're only allowed to say that here, and I dont think things are healthy over there where its all about a bad man

Like, the voices here that I find myself arguing with, I see them just go over to the discord and say we here are the crazy ones

never once have I seen it questioned that maybe this fued can be diffused, or maybe there are differences that can be looked past or transformed into fairness

it is the same as with the woke left - once they've characterized their opponents as irredeemable, there really can't be a compromise. the issues has come down to one of morals and principles - and to be principled is unwavering.

froox is getting funded to fight with Solirax?

im quite sure if Karel made new patreon with "help me fight" word would have killed furries angry

but its the divine Froox who says that so they think it is just personal project

nice play Froox :)

That's not how this works. That isn't how any of this works

they are fighting for IP against Solirax

they think Froox owns it

I can understand this feeling, given how people discuss the situation. I just don't feel like it's my place to assert my own interests in the team's evaluation of their work conditions. Like, the results of those negotiations IMO can be taken as a corporate action, and if the company acts in a way that gives us grievance, then I think it's legitimate for us to seek damages.

But it feels wrong for us to second guess their own tolerances or experience when it comes to the line they've publicly drawn. I think we have legitimate interest in terms of our relationship with the company. I don't think we have legitimate interest in questioning their evaluation of their own workplace experience. I do recognize that's a personal line, but I do think it's consistent with my goal of treating people as ends not means.

That being said, I do think it is legitimate to criticize their public actions. I just balk at the moral complexity of navigating that criticism in the context of abuse allegations, gaslighting allegations, blackmail allegations and the other emotionally driven narratives currently being thrown around. I am not a detective. I am also aware of my bias of familiarity on this point. I'd /prefer/ to not speak on this point but I will likely end up speaking up in defense of my friends because I mean... It sucks to see people yelling at people I like?

Realistically no one is going to convince me my friends are bad enough people that they don't have to be conscientious of their criticism, however much I hedge against my bias. Best I can do is acknowledge that respectful or even pointed criticism is legitimate and resign myself to engaging such in good faith if I can't just let it lie.

If there's anything I've learned from my time interacting with the furry community in Second Life over the past 15 years, it's that furries - and particularly furry coders have an incredibly inflated and unwarranted sense of self-importance to the point of it being a god complex. They see people like Karel as a hurdle between them and their conquest for power on the internet and will stop at nothing to discredit and remove him.

It's no coincidence that all of this started happening almost directly after Karel embraced his role as CEO and presented the 2022 roadmap. They've never respected him or seen him as anything more than a bean counter, and that mindset is the same thing driving them to make insane claims like "Froox really owns Neos." The current furry contingent walking off of the project would be the best thing to ever happen to Neos.

it's time to fuck frooxious off and make a new Dev team

will you please stop being a broken record and shut up about the furry fandom that you somehow are a mystical expert at. No one cares but the less noise we have, the better everyone's hearing will be

Flame Soulis is neck deep in the furry coder cabal with the rest of them and isn't here here for rational conversation - he's here to convince you that Karel is bad and Froox is good along with most of the people with cartoon animal avatars in the member list.

hell, I don't have personal issues with Karel. When I had trouble with a transaction, he was rather active in helping with it. Heck, we even got to talk about my previous employer because he visited their HQ during its operation. It was refreshing because I was a remote worker, so I never got to visit it.

read my last message. It's a doozy

if anything, you literally just proved most of our points that you are actively just hating on people for one aspect.

You can sugar coat however you'd like, the underlying motivation and agenda of the Discord echo chamber is removing Karel.

ahuh... okay so then... why would I need to sugarcoat facts? Karel visited my previous employer's HQ, hung out with the CEO and dev team, and it even influenced some final statements during the project's shutdown. I had and still have no ill will against my previous engagement with the company, so I have nothing to gain to bring up that mentioning, other than to solidify that I don't have any vendetta against a singular person.

much like...crypto being one aspect that the discord community hated on ruthlessly? lol just completely blind to the hypocrisy

that's not entirely true. Indeed, the public reception of it is not high. Many companies, including most (but not all) compeitors have made public pledges to not be involved with crypto currencies, leading to outcries against those who are still in support. Given the constant comparisons, when VRC did announce their pledge, this lead to a small raid in the discord about Neos being a terrible system due to its involvement. So people being upset over something that is resulting in negative press isn't a logical leap.

🤡

This corporate anti-crypto virtue signaling trend is a product of the far left social justice movement which is shilling the lie that crypto is killing the planet and that decentralized finance is evil. In the future when most of the world's financial networks are blockchain-driven, we'll look back and cringe at things like "anti-crypto pledges."

so then stop saying VRChat is a competitor. If they are indeed so far away on the spectrum and that their decisions are political... then why compete in their market? It's clearly their own.

Tizzy, you post the same thing at least weekly. I dont think its a surprise you get on peoples nerves when you do that, especially when what you say is either a generalization or just untrue. Its tiresome and everytime it feels like you are here to stir people up. All this "anti crypto" when there are furry holders here just trying to discuss how things will end up.

discord was posting the same god damn shit for months on end bro

and not just "generalizations" - literally calling karel a fucking modern day slaver

gtfo with this hypocritical moralizing bullshit

fucking clowns

Tizzy, how can you say this expecting it to be read as anything other than hyperbole? This isn't even a question of the 'furry coders'. Losing the whole of the project's technical talent, product knowledgebase, community relations team, quality assurance team, moderation staff and a significant portion of its active playerbase is mildly put a crippling prospect even if we hope and pray for a better faster stronger rebuild.

You're in full combat mode, and every time I see you you seem deeper and deeper into a McCarthyistic fervor. Like, banging on the war drum and seeing red. How is that going to help navigate the fallout? Like, you are using all the language of the modern culture war bullshit unironically.

rofl "McCarthyistic fervor" - were we in the same discord like 2-3 months ago??? hahaha

just as some of you wanted to have a simple conversation on the subject with evidence to back the claims, the same was there. In most cases here, there have been no evidence of proper support or where the systems worked. It'd be great if we did have a better alternative, and if crypto is that, then why is it subjective to such heavy market changes and has been on a decline in popularity recently? When we did ask about why that is, we were told that we didn't know anything and began praising a digital coin like a religious entity.

the crypto community literally had to leave and form its own telegram because of how toxic it was in the discord, and y'all chase us in here regardless, and now try to accuse of mccarthyistic fervor...just fucking lol

I don't believe we've spoken before.

you haven't answered the question and only are making it more to the point on why there were issues. Some crypto people did have valid explanations and were given more respect as a result. Then there were people who couldn't help buy say that the 'natives of the platform' wouldn't ever understand, as if we weren't allowed to know. Considering we were on the system first, actively work with it, and have the decisions of now effecting the future of what we work on... we have every meaningful point to ask questions and raise concerns

if anything, I raise a poitn I brought up then and still hold now: if everyone on the patreon and/or invested via NCR purchases, had actually signed in and given a single hour to the platform, it would have most likely tipped the scales against VRChat and everyone else in the form of concurrent users.

sure, there were reasonable conversations in the discord, i was part of many of them. what's your point? the overall toxicity was undeniable.

Going to be honest: I do not like drama, but I will say this.

The discord did get pretty freaking toxic, which I kind of don't like that it happened but, well, the internet everyone.

thank you for acknowledging that

Many people who were on the platform and actively using it found many of the newer people from the influx of crypto based investors to be equally... not so much 'toxic' as it was preachy and attempting to push ideas and agendas that felt against what the project was originally steering for. This made the decline of users go up with people leaving, along with the other issues coming in again from other changes with competitors and their stances on crypto, creating more divides. People were upset in both directions at each other, since each others's offering felt in conflict with the other.

To be honest both sides, certain players and certain crypto people were very toxic to eachother.

Yeah.

Basically

the toxicity was not entirely one-sided, no

of course not

I'll just say this: look at how the discord community characterized Karel. And Reactant once he left. And Tizzy... and yes, also the "crypto bro" community in general as well. It is to not just criticize, but to demonize and in complete bad faith.

There's a pattern to it. Many of us in here see it for what it is and are sick of it.

Reactant was a different case from most others. Part of it was shock, because some people actually got into Neos because of them. Their videos showing the full 11 point body tracking, eye tracking, and face tracking during a time when next to no one had such was very impressive and a major talking point. I can't comment further about them personally, because I only ever met them once, but was just jaw dropped on how well it all worked. Hearing about what occured felt like a betrayal in a way, even though I didn't have any direct investments other than why I have 13 trackers all charging at the moment.

To be honest both sides make satires and such too, again just the reality of the internet. You can't stop it.

As much as we try to stop it

Like some people will make anti (insert political party here) satire even if you think differently.

That's just what happens

Not talking about satire my dude. Discord was stating AS FACT that Karel was enslaving Froox, locking him inside, that he should be jailed for "faking" a signature, etc. I won't bother digging up the ugly stuff that has been said about Reactant and Tizzy. And of course the toxic bullshit that drove all of us crypto folk in here.

not even accusing any one of you in here, cause i don't recognize your usernames

BUT COME ON THIS SHIT KEEPS HAPPENING OVER AND OVER

I wasn't even paying attention to the discord

Recently that is

I used to

i'm no longer there, i assume it's calmed down much like it has in here

Yeah, it's more "game" oriented so I haven't been paying attention to the whole drama stuff really

I don't want to criticize '<group>' actions. It's reductive and unproductive. My criticisms, if I need to give them, should be specific. Been through this before, and us vs them crap just results in people justifying bad behavior with whataboutism.

None

None

they're like... kids. Young teens or something. Atleast I hope. but it was silly and probably the best laugh I had since watching this drama

Did VRC really "pledge" anything? All I saw was that they stated they have no plans. They didn't do some silly itch.io plea for attention

But I know the anti-crypto movement is like, basically an affinity group and will not just believe anything anti you tell them immediately with no verification, but will spin things a certain way

and I dont think it's so much that its been on a decline recently as so far as it experienced a massive push into public discourse that no one really asked for. Like for some natives of this market, we're used to and accepting of the various tides and volatility, as we've lived through atleast a few extensive multi-year drawdowns, but..

that was one of the many points of VRC+'s subscription. The idea was that 'the people would fund updates and new features' with some being VRC+ exclusive. This was also combined with already offered additions such as increased favorite slots and thumbnail support.

However, during the time after the initial offering was done, which was a discount... nothing occured after it. That is, until people's early subscriptions were just about to expire, when suddenly a new feature set came out...

Recently it became a hot contentious topic and so we've had to find ourselves being defensive and also getting exhausted with arguments that some thing are novel gotchas, but that had been hashed out like back in 2012 on the bitcoin talk forums... so annoying all around for everyone involved

Of art NFTs, maybe, I mean I partly hope so.

I own one only because a friend made it and it costed like 5 dollars so

atleast as an investment, hopefully thats past us

I didn't understand. Did at one point they talk about doing a blockchain thing and then backtracked on it?

nothing noteworthy yet

not at all. In fact, there was actually public concern about it, since some of the discussions were about market integration, mostly to capitalize on Patreon model systems. That's when another wave of concern occured, and hence the public response that eventually was made.

I see, I guess I wouldn't call it a "pledge"

no. It was treated as a subscription/donation system. They kept having to emphasize it being optional and not mandatory... despite the fact that using it basically could allow you to upload on day 1 since it augments your trust values a bit

reminds me of when Gabe Newell had a pretty measured response on nft and blockchain games and why they werent on Steam, and I agreed with it, but headlines were like "newell condemns NFTs as scams"

What problems have been solved in the internal consultation? I think you should come out and talk about it. Is it necessary for us to stay here? Karel

more or less akin to how my old CEO handled similar topics: basically advertised and supported NFT systems before their popularity along with his blockchain system (which... honestly was done in a smart way), despite now having a 180 approach... and the video of him explaining all the above still on the youtube channel publically

Karel

None

Guys I have a really serious Idea...

So with all that is going on between Karel and the other Devs... We need to be able to make our voices heard in a way that both Karel and the Devs will listen to.

We should form something like a CoOrdinating Committee, as a mixture of Patrons, NCR holders, NCR non-holders with an interest in the ways the technology could be applied, and sympathisers who understand how this has affected us and our wellbeing, and directly impacted our lives...

With some more cohesion, and our own governance token, we could more effectively represent ourselves and our interests without throwing fuel on the unempathetic sentiment towards NCR holders within the louder parts of the community.

This would NOT be to attempt to interfere in business which is strictly between Karel and the other Devs, that is Company Affairs, but it would give us a voice with a strong Community backing to appeal directly to both Parties and present to them our Ideas on what should be the Future of NCR and how it is handled.

I am able to create the Governance token myself, but, initially it is not going to be a tradeable asset, just a basic framework to begin with where the coin can be created and distributed.

Also to begin with, everyone is going to simply get a flat 100 tokens for simply being willing to participate. Only charge would be the transaction fee on the Solana chain.

We can decide on how we want to manage the finer points like distribution of the token once that is handled.

The Representative will be tasked with contacting the Devs, and as a Community, we can together sign an initial Petition to signal to both Karel and the Devs that we would like our Voices to be heard in unison through this method.

Is the bet that it is not a scam worth the $0.00025 transaction fee to you?

Cost you less than a penny for the chance to participate in a Community lead Governance system that coordinates our most agreed on Opinions and presents them to the Neos Leadership.

I'd cover the transaction fee myself but I have no idea just how many people are going to want tokens. How about I cover the first 1,000 people? Waive the fee.

DISCLAIMER: I'm telling you right now up-front, again, that to begin with you are not going to be able to sell the tokens. Not a monetised asset.

However that's not to say, and also not to guaruntee, that you won't be able to trade them in the future, since we could just decide to monetise the token, and since it would be ours and not an asset of the Neos team, we can just do that if that's what we want but it has to derive its value from somewhere for that to happen so we would have to come up with a plan, like a minting strategy, and finding ways to build a loose association with NCR, which could be anything, could be designed to make NCR holders whole by giving them a say relative to their NCR

News flash. So are the devs.

If you have been in this community for long you would know just how vocal I am about all the ways we could solve the problems that have been presented to us and salvage the value of NCR

All I am saying is we need to coordinate ourselves and form a decentralised structure with a mouthpiece through which to speak to the team.

Andrea I thought we were done with trolls like this?

Also, if you know anything about the way Corporations work, and Tokenomics, Psychology, and the Economy in general you'd know for a fact that my suggestions are sound and would help Karel and the rest of the Team.

What exactly is the issue with trying to unify our voices as Patrons and NCR holders?

Inflammatory and dismissive comments with no productive value to achieve the desired goal and salvage something from this catastrophic situation we are in.

You

I draw Aliens. Who cares. I am interested in the future of Neos and NCR and I have my neck out in NCR to motivate me to make that happen.

Because risking prison for less than a dollar of total profit is totally worth it :V

What would you suggest?

we could always just make a telegram group of our own and pin polls in there, though a governance token has the added benefit of validation and consensus, plus it would actively discourage the anti-crypto part of the community from participating in our own group voting and proposition structure which would be there to represent the interests of us, the ones who have been hurt financially and our sympathisers, not represent the toxic anti-crypto sentiment drowning out our voices enough already.

But anything that keeps track of common consensus in the non-anticrypto and neutral parts of the community works.

Why would someone who is anti crypto want to participate in a blockchain system?

Let me note that wanting anti-crypto people out of it, is because this is primarily meant to represent our own voice and let ourselves be heard when it comes to matters of NCR.

Right now the anti-crypto voice is the loudest, and the only one the devs can hear. So we need to work together to coordinate ourselves and represent the views from within our own community.

And the anti-crypto voice is hurting our financial wellbeing. The equivalent of calling up someone's boss and convincing them to stop paying you. It's not nice and it hurts.

I understand the Devs are in a similar predicament so I do sympathise

nevermind that creating a token to govern some committee to 'submit' ideas for a different token seems pointless and wasteful. The only purpose of it seems to be to systematically remove those who may have a different opinion in the first place by excluding out those who don't wish to participate in crypto in general and those who don't want to participate in your crypto. the subset of subsets remaining who use such a system I would think would share enough in common to not need some governing token. If you really want to separate out something for polling where you have more control over the population you are polling, you can create a separate group for it.

I'm primarily interested in salvaging NCR

I'd agree here, it just sounds like a scam and unnecessary overhead to something that can be simple

My biggest reason for blockchain specifically is actually because I think blockchain is cool and I know how to code a basic token on Solana and have been looking for an excuse :V

Maybe the telegram group Idea is best, but I assure you I was not trying to scam anyone. It's just that it would cost me exactly $0.00025 USD of Solana to send the token I could make to a person's wallet.

even without any scam intent. seems like an unnecessary layer that just removes value from itself by using it

If I were out to scam people, I'd not be asking only that they pay Solana's fee (less than 1 penny) for sending tokens between wallets :V

It was not intended to have monetary value though. I've been playing with the idea of governance tokens that are removed from being trade assets and used exclusively for governance and are issued based on non-monetary factors like for example how long it has been since you created your Neos account.

If you really want to form some more focused group or committee. make a new group to chat in. that gives you some moderation power, polling, focused discussion..

I might just do that

it introduces however little or much barrier to entry as you want as a bonus depending on how you invite people into it

(side note because that sounds bad, the issue tokens based on time things and other similar ideas if applied here would be voted on first. So would be based on what people want. But now I think about it, long time users would get drowned out by newer users)

true

Token to talk is a hassle. Nty

Group to talk, token to vote

But I'm thinking telegram might just be the best way now

I will consider voting a part of that "voice".

Awesome!

But I dont think its would achieve much. It feels like itd be the same ramblings we have here, except with voting to see whos right.

I don't think it would be too much different than the ramblings here either but that shifts moderation and topics to them instead of the group as a whole and the admins

Ramblings can be very productive. And I think it would achieve much as it, at the very least, gets our voices heard in a structured and collated way instead of the disparate cries and ramblings beings through around into the aether and drowned out by the cries of people who don't care about how it is hurting us.

So what if we vote on who we want the admins to be from who we feel best represents us?

Here, unfortunately, you can't create polls

Otherwise I'd just say make a whole bunch of polls in the group

Also can't pin messages, so the only message that ever gets pinned is Karel's statement, which is important, but non-conductive to discussion meant to unify our voices and decide what we want to pitch to Karel, Froox and the Devs

Pinning a Petition would be a good start to gain ourselves recognition

Id just say, good luck keeping interest. I think even if you gained a big audience, in the current community status, itll have polarizing votes and then people will just drop it altogether.

That's why I wanted to try to keep the group strictly about representing our section of the community which is under-represented right now, so, trying to keep the toxic atmosphere of the current community status against eachother out.

Okay I must be a bit confused because you were including users of all kinds, but it sounds like you are leaning more towards a crypto holders representation, is that right?

Yes, leaning more towards, but really just anyone who is not, explicitly, anti-crypto.

Integrating with and relating to the non-toxic wider community is still very important,

Gotcha

Not sure what you are envisioning as the representation mechanism. It's probably more expedient to create a feedback campaign or patreon priority issue voting bloc. The current feedback form is: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeL4HmESO0AnKm30G2GWb8n8aTZ87rRXNoHAzWTuZZCSRSxlw/viewform

... not to mention, the GitHub?

NFT are really just a receipt. Or rather a hyperlink. They don't actually solve any of the copyright or ownership issues that arise from digital content, since actual copyright law already addressed them. Even as DRM NFTs are not very useful. As far as showing ownership of a digital asset on a single platform. A decentralized leader gives no advantage over a traditional database.

Or just have an official canny. https://canny.io/

yeah... if you need an example of why NFT objects in a metaverse don't really work all that well if relied on as the only protection, I'd say look at High Fidelity, who used a Proof of Providence system (basically NFTs), and it was badly protected, and the excuse given was that protecting everything is impossible, so they didn't bother.

It's a weird thing: to make it work, you'd have to 100% enforce it, and then use techniques to keep the linked data anonymous, but for developers, having this be the case means that they can't make dynamic systems very easily, if at all. Things like model URL changing would not be possible, and it'd create issues where modifying the content could change how the NFT itself is considerred protected.

NFT protections really rely on the contract. And the protections themselves are handled through copyright law

Fun fact those monkey yacht club images are not copyrighted because they are generated by a computer. It's really funny

$400 a month is a trivial amount for corporation that just raised millions. It's called the cost of doing business and can be written off as a business expense.

that's.... not going to work. Content on most marketted user content systems have an inbetween system that handle things that would normally involve a court room before it gets to that point. You'd have to have the system itself be the govener in a sense, because the moment anyone can just read its data and copy it, they can equally reupload it as a new NFT, or not at all if the system allows for it.

Not to mention, you run into weird problems that the NFT people haven't throught about. If a market was based on it, can an NFT have a copy limit? If I buy a 3D voxel NFT (I've seen a few) of a tree, can I plant this tree multiple times, or do I have to own multiple NFTs per tree? What if I go to another place and then spawn out said NFT? What should occur to the older one that was previously in another world?

I say this because I already went through this and had to discuss these concerns back when this was a thing.

What's not going to work?

Also, just saying it again: we already have the GitHub, and it's free: https://github.com/Neos-Metaverse/NeosPublic/issues

Let me run by a very simple example: I create a tree. It's a neat tree. I publish this tree on the market. You buy the tree, you can use the tree. I'll just say it's an NFT for the sake of convience. Someone finds out how to get the tree's model extracted and copies it. It becomes a new NFT, since the system only allows for them. THey could decide to sell it, or not, but regardless, it's not an authentic original Soulis Tree.

By that definition, I should have a lawyer on standby and money to shove their way when somone does this, because copyright. Unless DMCA can apply, in which it takes a YouTube approach, but that also has a similar abuse system that... is already on YouTube. You could let whoever governs the NFT system to then handle it... but as far as I'm aware, isn't that kind of defeating the point behind them then?

Don't get me wrong: no system is perfect. But if you want to draw in creators, you need something that actually offers protection on some systematic level... but you also have to keep in mind on people developing complex systems.

Let me bring up a even simpler example: I already said they are useless and serve no function. Also the digital millennium copyright act is driven by copyright law. What are you even talking about

with DMCA, I can only base its effects... despite not having a full grasp of what it can fully do. I don't know how hosting services have to acknowledge and operate by to keep in compliance, but from the markets I have dealt with, usually this means items being delisted. However, I don't know if DMCA also applies to non-sold items or not. Like, if someone again duplicates something but doesn't sell it... I don't know if that is under the same umbrella. I just know there are reporting tools and the like, but that's it.

The entire purpose of the DMCA is to exactly govern what a hosting service is legally compelled to do. And what they are legally held liable for. YouTube for example could not exist without the DMCA because under traditional copyright law, they would be held legally liable alongside the uploading for hosting copyrighted content. If you don't have full grasp of something you shouldn't be posting an opinion on it so matter-of-fact-ly. Also oddly enough the DMCA also specifically covers boat hull designs. Fun fact.

That is indeed and ammusing fact.

It was new copyright legislation that needed to be codified and internationally recognized through the WIPO treaty so it was just tacked onto the DMCA

Which happens a with a lot of Bills

I can't remember off the top of my head where and when but there is a public health law dealing with sewage management and waste disposal that also bans elephants from being marched through a downtown/mainstreet area

there are a large number of weird laws in similar situations, be it on a local county/district level or state level.

The fact is NFT are a solution to a non-existent problem. And are more a reciept of sale than anything else. Legal Eagle does an excellent layman explanation on them.

I mean... that I get. That was how it operated in HiFi.

Interesting idea. I would highly suggest though that you find a level headed volunteer sympathetic to the other side to have as a moderator in order to keep the discourse civil. Someone who is in with the larger neos community but is not anti crypto.

...We. Already. Have. The. GitHub. Any concerns, bugs, feature requests, tweaks, and request of additional documentation are there. It costs nothing, is already used by virtually everyone, and is a function for Patrons to vote for their highest concerned issue.

Why complicate things even further with an additional system?

Hell, and I can't even believe I'm saying this, but if you really want to level things out, you could even request a feature where, if you don't want to be on Patreon and still want to invest, that you can spend an NCR token to vote if you are not a Patron.

You already can spend NCR on storage space, so having voting functions and using the token as a means of almost literally putting your money where your mouth is isn't a stretch, but at least then you are not introducing more complicated systems and we already know NCR transactions with system functions work fine.

The Patreon should be dropped. And services migrated to a more efficient vendor that doesn't take 12% of off the top.

And GitHub isn't user accessible to most people

Its a bad tool to rely on as a platform looking to grow and be easily accessible

Not sure if there is another vendor that would work. Only other one I know of is boosty and librepay, the latter working... If you want to throw teirs out the window and the former I know not enough to really make a statement other than that it was easy to use as a non-creator

I mean, don't get me wrong, an alternative would mean that even the crypto crowd could then have equal opportunities to that of users that are on Patreon as a possibility, and improving availability is always a good thing

There are users that are neither crypto or Patreon people there is and will be a contingent of people who don't pay anything. Users are still users. And there are plenty of vendors for small businesses and none of them take anywhere near 12% of a transaction. Patreon is and always has been a scam.

have you looked in a mirror lately?

Admitively, GitHub isn't exactly a glamor site, but neither are most developer environments (Seriously, the less we talk about FogBugz, Jira, phpMyAdmin, and most internal company built solutions, the better). However, it just works, and the team even setup a helpful wizard system when creating an issue.

It isn't Canny, but it also doesn't cost anything to use and is more widely adopted... everywhere. Heck, non-technical friends of mine were able to figure it out without me having to really explain anything.

Not to mention, if Neos does go the open source route... guess where it most likely will be and where most bug tickets will be reported...

and yes, I know about BitBucket and GitLab, if that is being brought up. All of them aren't too bad.

Cool story.

The actually known issues should probably be tackled before anything else

Fair... though in most cases, Jira is usually used for bug tracking purposes on technical projects.

I understand the importance about improving general usability, and it seems that the only reason Canny isn't really recommended is due to its price point. With a quick Google search, there seems to be an open source alternative... which I mean, I'd hope so, since Canny isn't exactly rocket science.

and if it can be tied with Neos's sign in system... then yeah: could totally make it work. Might be awhile to get it bridging, and GitHub users can reference the alt system and vice versa.

Only issue would be that the priority voting system would need an overhaul, since it's geared towards GitHub, but I guess you could also just have technical people find issues on the 'canny' system to group and organize more a more refined way there for voting until then.

heck, would be kind of neat to have the bot also respond back with updates to voted things, so if something changes while you are in-world, you can still get notified about it

So yeah... LogChimp or if someone can find something else without increasing expenses (other than bandwidth, because that's unavoidable) could work out if there is interest and people are willing to tweak it for Neos's accounts, unless that is already a thing in it.

The priority voting system should be thrown out

nice!

VR chat was down

we need more of those then

None

None

guys, we are listed on coinmooner👍🏻👍🏻

I think getting listed on new exchanges is good but I don't think we will see any rise in value until development starts up again

https://www.patreon.com/frooxius

Karel What do you think about this and don't you have any plans to make a new dev team?