Either that, or the people I've talked to were lying, which I also wouldn't put past them since the ones I'd asked were trying to get me to pay them to do the model stuff in unity themselves

But yeah.

Neos I've been able to do so much that I enjoy and am happy with
Stuff I couldn't do in vrchat when I tried my best, because I got discouraged that everything kept messing up and asking for help with it just resulted in people linking tutorials or etc.

And it's like.. Yes, I could do it.exactly as the tutorial says, but that's not what I have or what I want
Or it doesn't work with what I already have

You just overwrite the existing model file, it requires zero work. In fact it's one of the major things I found was an annoyance in Neos. If I want to update my avatar model in Unity, I just save over the FBX and that's it, nothing else required. In Neos I have to redo the entire avatar from scratch.

Thing is, that's what I did
And it always broke

I have no clue why, but it kept upsetting me that it did that

In neos I just drag the mesh over and replace the mesh

Unity it's apparently supposed to work, it just never has for me, with multiple models that were completely seperate

That doesn't work in most cases, e.g. moved bones, new/removed bones, etc.

No modification of bones, just an extra material slot or extra blendshape

True, but in unity iirc modifying bones and saving over the fbx also always requires you to redo things (from what I've been told)

It does not

VRchat has it's own community in the whole prefabs thing. I've interfaced with them a bit, but I just hate the workflow of traditional game engines. I have a blast making stuff in Neos, even with complex dumb workarounds. The workflow is collaborative from the start and the whole toolchain is designed with that in mind.

And I've given it to other people to do thst sort of thing and they had the same issue as me

And I don't think they were lying about it but I'm not sure

But yeah with neos, since I mostly just move a couple polygons, change blendshapes, or add a material slot, it works

I mean, if you're in a very large world with lots of heavy avatars

Neos definitely needs to work on optimization

I know you know better than this. You have at least a passing familiarity with software architecture. LogiX is not the interesting part of Neos, it is a consequence of the interesting part of neos, which is as ever the entity component model and the underlying network primitives.

I genuinely think Logix needs a massive refactor. It feels like a combination of the worst parts of blueprint coding and actual coding, with the benefit that it exists in world space so scaling, location and visibility all also become issues.

I mean, VRC has UdonSharp so you can use VRC's blueprint system OR write pure code, you can do whichever you prefer or even mix them.

Logix is literally just a blueprint system in userspace

Which honestly makes it a pain in the ass to work on

Sure, and I have to use a bunch of third party addons to fix major design issues with Neos. What's your point?

I mean, Udon compiles, so it was always going to be viable.

None

Eternal

contract

None

None

Is this NEOS community here?

/group

if you mean people who make use of the platform, then yes, this is one of the main group channels

Thx

VR is the future,keep going and moving on

Unfortunately both Karel and Andrea appear to be MIA so... yeah.

They are probably busy is understandable

Can't spend even 10 minutes a day checking on something that they solely are responsible for. Doesn't bode well.

Have you dm them?

One of them at least, yes.

Should try Andrea and patience

I think patience has been exhausted by most already here.

Only option, have to wait for karel to hire real devs

What do you need them for?

Well a good example would be moderating their Telegram channel...

Ah I see, yeah I guess a moderator would be pretty nice

Hopefully once the team issues are resolved we can have some moderators here

Or maybe we end up going back to discord then anyway 😂

I'm already in the Discord, you can't talk there without the usual army of zealots piling on, so I have no interest in that.

Though that does remind me, I need to leave the Discord, I got pulled in again by accident and being there just annoys me at this point. The cognitive dissonance is... yeah.

None

Is just children, ignore discord

It's a shame most of those people in there are die-hard Frooxius sycophants who don't have a single shred of respect for Karel or the NCR holders. Trying to communicate in the Discord as a Karel supporter is usually met with a wall of screeching bad takes from the cartoon animal avatar mafia.

The discord has other things besides the karel/froox/ncr debate xP

Hmm I think you’re twisting things a bit here. If people say something supportive of Froox here they won’t get dogpiled.

Can you show me an example? I think you might be projecting

I think Froox is a cool guy and a talented dev but to build Neos into something substantial requires more than that. Unfortunately Froox has acquired a cult following of furries that have made Neos a toxic environment for anyone outside of their cult.

Just look at what happens if anyone tries to say anything positive about Karel (which is seen as against Froox).. it’s not inaccurate

Not at all. I have friends who are furries. However my experience so far has been bad with the ones who are fanatically anti-Karel, mostly furries.

Tbh it is quite scary

Speaking your mind is scary

They will outcast you and label you as a Karel supporter

I suspect there are a lot of people who stay quiet because they are scared

Like I said, a toxic environment

I think one of the other problems is unconstructive discussion on both sides....which have just led to community generalizations

We have crypto users that come to screw around and stir the spot, and then we have some furry users that just really hate crypto. And then suddenly both assume the other is toxic

Its because they dont know how reality work, polarization is a neccesity. You do not profit by letting others trample you into complacency

The only way to prosper is to raise support and take back what was stolen

That is your interpretation, I'm sure karel feels robbed by this mutinous uprising

Lol if that was the case then almost everyone would be guilty of stealing…

I think he more means the coordinated sell off / general FUD caused by the team

The general mutinous taking over of the platform and blocking of progress, we don't have evidence of coordinated malicious sales but if it happened it only adds to the extent of it

Karel has to remove the undesirables and focus on hiring people who can be trusted

There is a legal negotiation no?

They are abusing proceedings to block development

Website is in his control application is not

Yes but legal negotiations around this blocks work on app

It is malicious tactic

This is again another thing people keep echoing, but is infact illegal, so he is probably NOT using company funds to attack the other devs legally.

Has he hire personal lawyer? Last I hear is solirax lawyer

There was no "slander" from me in that statement. What are you on about?

Yes which is method to draw out length of dispute to harm him by making bad faith offer

Is also to harm business partner relations

Let me reiterate: Company funds cannot be used to cover legal fees in disputes between shareholders of a company. So again, the "he's just using Solirax/Neos money for his legal representation" is almost certainly not true.

Solrax Ltd which is the company under which they operated at the time is incorporated in the United Kingdom.

https://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/insights/blogs/dispute-resolution-law-blog/company-money-should-not-be-used-to-pay-legal-costs-in-disputes-between-shareholders

Yeah karel has said Solirax has lawyer he does not

"This case relates to proceedings brought under the Companies Act 2006 s.994 which provides at subsection (1):

A member of a company may apply to the court by petition for an order under this Part on the ground—
(a) that the company's affairs are being or have been conducted in a manner that is unfairly prejudicial to the interests of members generally or of some part of its members (including at least himself), or
(b) that an actual or proposed act or omission of the company (including an act or omission on its behalf) is or would be so prejudicial."

I mean, the thing you linked just reiterates what I said... "The company is usually a nominal party to these sorts of claims, however the general rule is that it should not participate in, and its funds should not be used on disputes between shareholders, unless it is demonstrably necessary – say for giving disclosure of company documents"

The NFT whales really like NCR lol...just found a wallet with 26 cryptopunks (~$4M) + a bunch of other NFTs. Only ERC20 holding...NCR. They've been quietly accumulating all the way from $1 to $0.30. https://zapper.fi/account/tokenangels.eth

Another NFT whale with a lot of NCR (they bought much higher but have continued to HODL): https://zapper.fi/account/yfimaxi.eth

Might look back at this moment some time soon and realise how big an opportunity it was to get NCR at less than $1

Pretty crazy when you think the whole drop was caused by some team drama. Imagine what happens when that's resolved...Nothing fundamentally changed

Actually after all the buybacks, there isn't much NCR floating around. Also the team have sold off all their NCR so there's no threat of that anymore.. NCR is much more well distributed and decentralised now

Not to shill too much, just stating my observations xd

That was the case before with the mint - at the end of the day, Karel/Solirax can do whatever they want to NCR so it will always be centralised in that sense. What I mean is the tokens that are in circulation are better distributed

Much better for stability to have more holders

Now the team can't dump lol

...actually, that does raise an interesting point: is there a dedicated wallet that is composed of the entire balance of NCR within Neos itself that is used for the transfers going out?

I mean, if that's the case, a good percentage of it wouldn't be just to the company, but rather the treasury amount required to make the balances in-world have something to reflect

Yes the in game amounts are all in a single (maybe a few?) managed wallet(s) owned by neos

This is the main managed wallet afaik https://etherscan.io/address/0xf87725a4592ebfce1c83a8145cfd38c285228e27

so some amount is in a treasury of sorts

alright, that's kind of what I figured, but wanted to check to ensure it wasn't done in some weird loophole kind of way

It allows in game transactions to be instant and not have any fees

A lot of this might also be reserved funds from the CDF. So it would only be realised once we start minting again

I get that, but was just checking to make sure

None

CDFT also has a reserved amount to be paid out over time

Andrea

Douche

Don't forget to report > spam.

lol

can you shut up

No-one gives a shit about tokens. This is (was?) a metaverse platform that actually worked.

Even I will not stupe so low as to go into those severs there's a reason why I report them and leave them as soon as I do so

I am very upset that this chat is how Neos is being officially represented on this platform. No moderation at all. Please get an actual community management strategy together or use the existing infrastructure. Even an auto moderation bot would catch this.

Same

if only there were actual mods for the channel

So how far along is your project? Can I create worlds there? Does it support HD video in worlds? Does it have a working inventory system?

Good work lads

Ye

You sure showed that bot whose boss

and the anti-sticker bot is pointless as disabling stickers is just a telegram channel setting

NCR at .43

Yes

Well 41 now

None

Because you continually spam things that are nothing to do with Neos while shilling for other random crypto. The fact this isn't obvious to you basically gives away that you're either a troll, or lack even basic common sense.

just idiot

There being no new news is not carte blanche to post unrelated shit.

These are common sense rules and standard to pretty much every channel.

... are you having a stroke?

None

sure

Can I get the price of the ncr I hold back?

Is the token and the game separate?

It can be traded outside of Neos, yes. It has no purpose outside of Neos itself though.

Somewhat. You can send NCR to other users and buy cloud storage space for your inventory.
(Everyone gets 1GB free) You do not need NCR to play Neos.

NCR can only be used in the standalone build which you can download for free here:
https://assets.neos.com/install/NeosPublicSetup.exe

Neos is also on Steam however the team was forced to remove the code for token functionality due to Valve's conditions. Otherwise Neos couldn't stay on Steam.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/740250/Neos_VR/

You can ofc exchange NCR on exchanges too.

Also worth noting that any storage purchased is usable in either version of the client. In addition, you can be gifted storage space by another user who is using the standalone client, and same vice versa.

I think he is trying to type "asshole" but is censoring it for some reason

I'm in blender, but I guess I can also hop in *shrugs*

Hello
Is there a way to force an item to stick on my character?

I have booper and cant seem to make it fit on me

if you hare something like an interactive thing like a booper, you can just 'parent' it to the nearest bone on your avatar that would be where you want it to be.
You can do this by using the inspector on both the item (booper) and your avatar. Navigate to where your avatar's bone is (to be the parent of the item), and then grab drag the item's handle (the name of the item on the left side of its inspector) to the bone on your avatar. This will parent the item to your avatar's bone.
From there, you can move the item to more precisely where you want it. It should then move with your avatar without question

Ah okay

I need to spawn my avatar too correct?

that'd be most optimal

So i can use the inspector tool on it

Okay got it

you 'can' inspect yourself more easily in VR, but either way in desktop mode or VR, it's easier to tinker with something that isn't yourself

Hah yeah i thought that too

Thank you my dude

😊

None

Neos ETH treasury up $200K today 🚀

I mean, Neos has always had competition. It's always been competing with every other social VR platform like VRC. Sure, they don't work in the exact same way, but to claim they don't compete in the same space is just a bizarre denial.

When I build worlds, I can choose to do it in Neos, VRC, CVR, AltSpace, Sansar, etc. *How* the world gets built is largely irrelevant and comes down to preference or capability. The end result is what matters the most. And when people decide where to spend that evening socialising, the same thing comes up, which platform to use? You can just swap out any of the common VR social platforms. Just because there's differences does not make them completely non-competing.

Respect would be not posting your crypto links to other projects in here

Hot take: but Alt-space is kind of a direct competitor in the education and virtual space for work. And has 6x the concurrent users

What's this?

probably referring to buybacks changing USDC into NCR

I haven't checked any of AltSpace's interaction systems, but I do recall hearing something about weird html stuff, which I guess means you can use javascript to do extra things to it.

AltSpace is more like the Teams version of VR communication systems, which is fitting given MS's ownership. That being said, it isn't hard to say that more people use Teams over other solutions like Mattermost

especially within commercial and education sectors

oh, because someone wants to keep highlighting my comments, for anyone who hasn't done so already, AltSpace is requiring you link with a Microsoft account before 05/31 in order to continue using their system.

this may be the Neos telegram, but figured that it was worth pointing out for anyone who peruses on multiple platforms

so hateful for putting 💩 on normal posts

shameful really

I dunno, it all depends on what you're going for to be honest

The main reason I'm building worlds in neos is because neos is so much more useful for the idea of story based roleplay stuff, larping kind of. Like..
The fact that you can spawn items quickly, the fact that you can build stuff, add stuff onto avatars quickly and easily, EE_Items, etc.

All that is super useful and something that isn't really replicated

If you're just looking to hang out, yeah you cna pick vrchat, cvr, neos, etc.

But for further, vrchat and neos are really the main ones with games and such

Neos is the only one with these features of saving items and loading the.and such

For instance, one thing vrchat doesn't have that I know of is persistent saving of things for worlds and such, if you play a game you can't play it, save, come back to it, etc.

With.neos, you could save your data in an item, save the item, and spawn it out later and insert it somewhere. Kind of like how some arcade machines had.like.. Scorecards and stuff.

They may be competing in some sectors but..

Also not really,. In many ways, since they focus on different stuff

it is worth pointing out VRChat did announce awhile back that they were working on a persistence system for worlds, along with individual player persistence. While some of the things mentioned in that twitch announcement did include things like the avatar dynamics system... their announcement was also that it'd be out by the summer... of 2021, along with groups and a creator economy... of which only one of these things are actually out, and it wasn't last year.

however, object persistence and data persistence is a bit different. At this time, Neos is the only one with an active inventory system. This means items that are either avatar related, world related, or however, are storable and recallable. The moment that VRC adds a sharable objects system, even at an attachment only level, that will really spell doom and gloom.

The only thing I can think of that is holding VRC back on such actions boils down to the Quest version, which accounts for a major percentage of its users. As a result, any inventory system added would have to account for Quest renditions of said objects, even though in all honesty, it'd save creators quite a bit of headache, and even VRC themselves some trouble as well, since items could be made as PC and Quest versions, akin to how avatars work.

seriously?

pathetic

aw... how cute... you have to get called out on to make messages vanish...

anyway, while VRChat's system isn't quite the same, it shouldn't be ignored. Neos may have an economy function, but it doesn't have a direct integration within the system itself outside of storage purchases, and VRC has already announced wanting to add a subscription model for users to make use of. While you can save a world's state, creators in VRC have found ways to get around this and have created password like systems to store information. The only current leg up that Neos has is inventory management, but even a basic update to VRC's end will make the argument not mean much.

ah... so your other account is BubbleBuyBot... interesting....

you can erase that all you want.. but my messages won't change...

whatever...

I just contribute to the discussions. There was previous commentary regarding the differences between Neos, VRC, and others, and the claims that the systems are different. While they are different, that isn't really an excuse for Neos to undermine VRC's lack of something as a pure positive, especially since some of that can be remedied.

No questions are exactly needed in that relation.

everything I say gets a react from you in a similar way. Not sure why the declaration was needed, but oh well

Ah... I see. That clears up some confusion I was reading up earlier

poetically ironic then that such remains rampant here, despite the commentary given to the Discord and the ironic name of its service.

There is a save system using avatars and Udon on some game worlds

I was about to say, avatar persistence is a thing in VRC now.

Avatar persistence has definitely been out for a while. Only thing that'd make it stronger is if there was some kind of 'baking' function for some blendshape properties, which could allow for even stronger optimization.

since beside color options, once you have shape settings finished, you usually don't need to tweak certain ones anymore.

Blendshapes don't really seem to have that huge cost like they do in Neos, at least not that I've noticed.

Think of it like a stored animation, it adds to the size of the avatar. Though shouldn't add to the rendering cost unless it's activated at all. So blendshapes at 0 still add to the filesize, but not to the rendering cost.

In Neos they appear to be, elsewhere... meh. Looks like some real benchmarks would need to be done.

To make matters even more complicated, there's the material/drawcall and additional mesh debate. For example, you can separate the head mesh from the body mesh, such that blendshapes for facial expressions and speech. Problem is that if the head is now separated, sometimes you might as well make it its own material, but that increases drawcalls. Likewise, that action technically creates an additional mesh, and depending on how well the engine handles things, this could create issues with object occlusion.

In VRC's case, sometimes it handles this occlusion... badly. Even if you keep the entire avatar to 1 material, the head will vanish if a person's viewpoint has it only partially out of view. So the body is fine, but you get a corner of the vision situation with someone's head doing the Houdini

It's not common practice, but people who heavily focus on optimization tend to point that out. From what I understand, it boils down to, at least with Unity, the centerpoint of the mesh being the issue. A cheeky solution could be to hide a single vertex at the base to force the middlepoint to be about the same as the body.

For Neos, the largest culprit isn't the mesh; it's the components within the avatars. A plain Jane avatar with no scripted functions will operate just fine. Once you add additional things to it, those components all have object information and are updated like bones on an avatar

So, every time you add logix or an additional node to an avatar, it's like adding another bone, and as you pointed out earlier, bone based systems eat up a lot of performance resources by comparison

well, there was talks about how to resolve that: Neos likes to sync everything that moves, including those components. The idea would have been to stop doing network updates on things that didn't change or can be more easily calculated by the individual. That'd also reduce some overhead since now you aren't telling the client something 'moved' when in actuality, it didn't persay

So... in another weird way: Neos's network system is also not very optimal, or moreso too aggressive with wanting to have everything properly updated. On the flipside, this does mean if you need to ensure everything is synced up, then Neos does a good job at it... albeit too good of a job

This is user error. They need to correct the bounding box on their avatar. It's only guestimated by default.

The problem with Neos is people adding endless shit to their avatars and then there being no way to audit people's avatars or even block them. People memed about VRC performance but then further drove Neos' already struggling performance into the ground by using the worst avatars imaginable. The worst part is that it then ends up an all-or-nothing scenario, you either block all custom avatars in a world, or none of them.

100%. You can't block people or avatars. You can block people joining your session, but there's no "block" like VRC and no way to hide someone's avatar. You can mute people at least.

It's become a real issue in the cinema because I want people to be able to use their own avatars, but so many people have such shit avatars that murder everyone's performance immediately and just don't care if you confront them about it.

Even better is that one of the people that was renowned for having an avatar that tanked everyone's performance and didn't care, was made into a mentor.

None

I am aware, I have my own and have implemented them. It doesn't stop load in issues, it doesn't stop VRAM usage and it is easily defeatable.

Yeah, I had to actually check myself: you can ban people from worlds and sessions you run, but not actually hide like VRC. Heck, even HiFi didn't have this issue.

Yeah, I had several people come to me saying "Can you fucking believe it, they made X a mentor?" which was... yeah, another worrying moment.

I think part of why you can't really hide someone is due to how Neos handles objects and avatars. At anytime, an object can become an avatar, so if you did 'block' someone, the objects associated with them or even not associated can still mirror what they are doing.

still, the lack of 'hide processed objects that belong to X' is kind of just silly. Somehow I thought a basic block function existed, but I stand corrected

Neos just needs to disable all components under that user's root. Mesh renderers, colliders, audio, sound, etc.

Yeah I'm curious who it is

Shouldn't be too hard if that's all you need tbh

Even in like

The other issue is that Neos doesn't really handle asset streaming or unloading, so hiding their avatar and disabling their renderers doesn't free up their VRAM usage.

Nope, Neos doesn't ever unload anything until sessions are closed and even then it's not immediate.

VRC is equally guilty there sadly.

Wait does it load things into vram that have mesh renderers disabled upon loading?

What happens with interactions though? Blocked players will still be able to move objects, pull levers, shoot a gun in a multiplayer game, etc. I wonder how that interaction is networked and if thats a big issue for blocking functionality

I had to shelve a project because it required 36GB of VRAM, lol (8GB after lowering all textures to 1x1k) so until asset streaming becomes a thing, it's unusable.

Yes

To fully do a proper garbage dump, you have to jump 2 sessions. The first one won't clean it in case you have people hopping over to your newer session. Anyone who wasn't in the one prior will be cleaned up. The second jump then correctly does it, because no one else was in the first jump.

Because Neos isn't well designed, unfortunately. In their defence, VRC didn't get it till a few years back either.

Oh oof, then I guess I should delete a bunch of broken high poly items from my world then that I just disabled them and the mesh renderer

Basically the rule in Neos is this: If it exists in the world, it's downloaded and then loaded into RAM/VRAM. Regardless of it's state.

Damn

Basically, though it's been a feature in Unity for some time, but it's not in Neos.

The ONLY way around this is to swap the asset URLs on objects from null to the desired resource (or vice versa) when they are/aren't needed. This is obviously impractical at scale though as it's entirely manual to implement for EVERY SINGLE asset piece.

It's still an issue to this day with VRC. I spoke to TCL about it during the last event back in March... and then he promptly crashed due to running out of memory

That's how my cinema functions, all heavy media (music, films, video, etc) is nulled when you're not in the respective zone, then swapped back to the relevant asset when you get close to it again.

VRC has texture streaming now, but that won't help if he's somewhere that is simply too texture dense.

well, that and if you are in the same world for hours on end

Also there's still a bug with SteamVR where if you keep swapping from VRC to SteamVR's overlay and back, it leaks VRAM.

Yeah that's a big issue tbh

YES! God that bug is annoying!

There's some huge weird bug with vrc / SteamVR

And then also with virtual desktop

If you're using the quest 2

okay, oddly, my Quest 1 and VD have LESS issues than my Index and no extra backend. GO FIGURE

Swapping to the desktop and then swapping back, 90% of the time causes vrchat to drop to like 10fps unless I'm in the SteamVR menu

And the only way to fix it is restarting vrchat

The Rex and the lag they cause on join has made me hate them and anyone using them, to be honest.

Agreed.

I know for some events, like the BLFC one, they did do a check at the entrance to ensure you weren't holding the entirety of Wikipedia in your avatar

And that there is a way to force the default avatar on load so...

but yeah, NATIVE solutions would be far nicer

*puts a sign up for slot count limit*

Maybe but I don't think slots are the only thing that matters tbh

Oh its not, but its one of the issues that people complain about, when someone joins and causes 2-3 seconds of freeze time

The downside of user based checks is that it means the user has *already* loaded their terrible avatar before the checks can take place.

I try to make users consider what they use by having their cloud avatar not load by default in the cinema, they first see a message asking them to use a decent avatar. So if they load in their shitbox of an avatar, I'll know it was a conscious choice to fuck everyone else, rather than an accident.

I think a major culprit is also that some people who are on Neos may have come from SL. The thing with SL is laggy scripts only hurt the server. You can write a while loop doing the Fibonacci sequence, and that won't do jack to anyone's framerate or CPU resources.

Yeah if I go to a world with that I usually just only use my default avatar tbh, which isn't too bad compared to most

but in Neos, from what I understand, some logix that runs is based on synced data. Things like FPS counters are based on the projected user's FPS information sent over. The text is then calculated and processed on the individual basis.

I forget how many slots but I've been optimizing it more and such, and it's a custom avatar not like.. The Rex or smth

I personally use a Rex, but not 9000 slots xP. And mostly baked blendshapes

But if nobody's there except me and friends, I do have a way more unoptimized avatar I use sometimes, though like.. The reason it's unoptimized is cuz it's the spag kanga model and apparently that's just very unoptimized jsndjdksms

hell, I'm redoing the logix in my avatar from the ground up because I want it to run well and not use too many resources, on top of redoing the UV layout so that more detail is shown, even though it's a single material avatar

The kanga is fine from what I know

Really?

It takes a couple seconds to load normally even with the base, for me

I have several friends that use it so I've poked around it a decent amount, it seems fine. It could depend on the textures you're using for that lag maybe...

Ohhh maybe

Though I also saved a multitool onto the avatar

I know I'm the worst xd

But it's not my default avatar and I avoid using it if too laggy or if the world asks for such.

but I've tested with just like.. The base model and my textures and it still takes a couple seconds to load. The multitool just makes it worse x3

I forget how many slots the avatar has tho

and that does raise another concern: if you upload a texture, whatever format it was supplied with will be somewhat mirrored in Neos. Uploading TGAs w ill always result in a chonkier texture, even with the same compression models in use as a PNG version. The other issue is that people tend to just upload 4k nightmares and suddenly people wonder why GPUs are running out of VRAM so quickly

Like the couple seconds is baseline without much added onto it

Back when I originally started with the avatar

Ah, the textures I commissioned are 4096x4096

That is probably the biggest issue lol

4k should not be an issue at all, it's almost the standard at this point. It's only an issue if you have a bunch of them.

Oh

I went and optimized most of the textures that aren't the body itself so

Uploading a TGA and PNA should be functionally identical. Can you clarify your issue here?

I.e. He has shackles that are like 128x128 texture

Done what I can to optimize still even if it's useless x3

Could have sworn I remember talking to someone about that, but I can test it in a bit. Doing some mower repairs atm

it boils down to that the file sizes were larger between the two, even if you adjust the compression stuff inside Neos

They should produce identical results. Neos will store those away on the backend and then the asset server will issue you DXT1 or DXT3 (if it contains alpha channels) images in return.

The only difference is that Neos always stores the original which counts towards your storage. So if you upload a 10Kb PNG and a 1GB TGA, they will actually take up that much space on your storage and there's *nothing* you can do about it, well, there didn't used to be.

I pestered Froox and he made a texture optimisation tool, which will find all source assets referenced in the current scene that use an overly large base asset (e.g. TIFF, TGA, etc) and will then convert them to lossless WebP instead.

now if only the crunch value was adjustable....

Took me down from 35GB to 19GB when I first used it on all my worlds.

If you're having issues with crunch artifact visibility, switch the texture to BC7_LZMA.

no, it isn't that

Basically, on say VRC, I'll typically use crunch at like 50-75% on some textures, because they can artifact away, and I won't really care. Others, I'll usually run a bit higher to like 90% as my top limit

But you can't adjust the numbers in Neos... despite the fact the number is outright shown and locked at 100%

Unity is very misleading there, that % value is quality in terms of "how hard should I try" as opposed to "how bad should it look".

The option that affects the size is the High/Normal/Low switch.

oh... so the real multiplier is the H/N/L, and the percentage is more or less the effort of the switch?

In short, you always want that value set to 100%, the trade off is that the compression stage can take a lot longer (decompression times aren't affected).

Exactly, it's the "how hard should I try" slider, lol.

I could have sworn that higher percentages resulted in larger files...

repsectively speaking

It can affect the size but only negligibly. If you want small files, set it to Low / 100%. Alternatively you can switch to the PC tab and set the compression format yourself, as that's basically what Low/Normal/High actually does, it just changes which format it uses which is why often it'll seem like it does nothing then suddenly drastically changes.

Because it's not like changing a JPEG quality, it's literally changing to a much worse but smaller file format.

ah... okay. Yeah, because trying to keep my avatar as small as possible is also another thing I usually pushed for, partly because I can't account for someone's internet connection being either fiber or DSL.

Texture complexity is always going to be the dictator of size to be honest.

That and when I get notified of someone walking around and their avatar size is as bigger than the Deus Ex demo.

It's why my original Dragon model was a pain in the ass, highly complex texture that if you tried to crunch at all would look horrific. Luckily my new one, all-in is only like 20MB.

yeah. In VRC, my avatar is ~7MB as a single mat and full PBR. Neos has more chonk to it (~23MB with head text), but now that I know about the compression stuff more, I think I can get that lower

At least it isn't uncompressed Khronos files...

Not to flaunt the mentor team, of whom I understand are all doing it as part of a volunteer effort, but I have had cases where I've seen people get the mentor title, and my first response is "How?", not in question of their knowledge or intelligence, but rather their behavior and character

100% This

Some are cringe and some are extremely creepy

I'm working towards becoming a mentor only because I already help people and I wanna help people

I got accepted without just being friends with the right people.

I haven't spoken to prime and the friends I have around the neos team had no clue I even applied x3

There are obviously people in the mentor program that genuinely want to help, but there's a lot there for the title and there's a lot who seem quite clueless and when I asked how people like that got in, the general answer seemed to be that the focus was more on being nice than having any idea what you're doing. lol.

When I told them I got accepted.

Technically I joined for the title

Becsuse I already do help people

But I want the title because it's kinda saying.. Hey, I'm open for questions. Ask me if you need.

I think I gained a genuine disdain for the mentor team when, combined with knowing that many do it just to have a semi-official Neos title, I had someone pass up my offer of help to fix something because I wasn't a mentor.

Ah, have you tried chatting in dms then? ^w^
That way you don't have to listen to other people talking, it's very helpful tbh

Ugh.. Yeah I haven't had that

I've had people come up to me without a title at all and be like hey can you help me do this

Knowing how new and clueless some of them were, it was a real putdown.

From that point onwards, it was a case of if someone wants help, I'll just tell them to look for mentors and that's that.

It is a conversation though ^w^
It involves speaking with others in a group meant to be a discussion about neos, and in which case, mentors are a part of neos! ^w^

Nah

This is why the mentor program should be axed

But yeah, that's stupid tbh.
That's something I'd hate to deal with myself. People being kind is something I feel this game should be built around.

I like how they gave up on the mentor alert system because people just wouldn't answer the requests. That kinda highlighted the "they're here for the title" of a lot of them.

You don't need a stupid title and a badge to help people

Wait they gave up on that sort of thing?

Mentor system, throw it out the window. It's useless

That's kinda stupid

Yeah ages ago.

I disagree

I feel it should be refactored.

It should be thrown out

It's a very useful thing to have a group of people who can.help answer questions

And it can exist alongside proper documentation.

And professional user support implemented

I think it shouldn't be a requirement

It was relied upon by new users too often, and since mentor is low-level-volunteer-forced, it was unreliable to expect 24/7 support and people were left hanging

It's been so long since I've been out in Neos publicly that I can barely remember but I think the problematic mentor was JoshFluffy. I'd have to double check though.

"Professional" user support tends to be taking a week or more to respond to inquiries

Mentor s are a band-aid for poor UI/UX and tutorial experience

I feel mentors shouldn't be that.

That's why there is a discord

I'm in "maintenance mode" as far as Neos is concerned. I fix my existing content, keep the cinema running, work on / make sure MetaMovie works well and that's pretty much it.

Mentor system is redundant and only exists as a band aid for other issues

Yeah you're like

Literally just corroborating my point lol

What you feel and what is objective reality are two different things

If we got rid of mentors completely and had any questions needing to go to "professional" user support

????

There is no objective reality there though

Like

Saying mentors should be first point of contact is your opinion

It is not an objective fact

I personally feel they should not.

That is my.opinion.

The mentors were literally created to deal with new users running into roadblocks due to the bad tutorial and bad ui

Probably, and until those things are added, probably gonna still have mentors. The mentor system has existed since before the "better" tutorial was added.

If you want to disagree, that's fine
But I feel they should not be.

Mentors shouldn't exist

That's also an opinion

Not an objective reality.

I believe they shouldn't either

But I said I feel they shouldn't and I was told that that's not objective reality?

When there is no objective reality to an opinion like that

This

I was staying my opinioj

That mentors should not be first point of contact for new users

If you can't follow the flow of a Convo then don't be in that convo

And they shouldn't be an excuse for poor user experience

Lmao if you have an issue with someone agreeing wiht your opinion ,maybe don't share it?

Okay lol

I swear, yall are seeing me as a furry and someone who's trying to be a mentor, and painting me as someone you hate immediately
Even though I literally agreed with your opinion

Big mentor energy with this guy

If yall wanna do that, that's fine but it gets nowhere.

No we dislike you because of your personality

At least I do now

So therefore, anything I say, even if it's agreeing with you, is wrong.

Got it.

We weren't in agreement

Yes we were.

I said

I feel mentors should not be that
When.you stayed they were first point of contact

Which you also do not want mentors.to be first point of contact.

And you had an.issue with my opinion there despite the fact that you do not wish for mentors to be first point of contact.

And I was saying they should exist, several times genius

MC peepants? The rapper?

I don't want them to exist

They are cited as like on eod the top reasons new users don't stay

And them not existing requires them not being first point of contact, correct?

It also requires them not being an excuse for poor ux, correct?

Jesus Christ. Stop.

Our opinions are not 100% opposite, you're just arguing against the points you're also rooting for, because I am a furry and applying to become a mentor. That's literally it lol

My only point is it shouldn't exist and harms the community far more than it helps

Idk if you realize but when people refuse to work together in any way shape or form, and refuse to discuss anything, things get nowhere fast.

I don't give a shit that you're a furry

And my point is that I agree with you that it harms things if it's the first point of contact.

I just find you to be generally annoying

And that it also harms things by being an excuse for poor ux.

Personally I feel that it could be better served as a group of people who can.help with more complex things.

What you are doing right now, is literally what mentors do that drives people off.

Which also means it needs a complete refractor

...sharing opinions?
In a public chat?

Or people can just ask people they meet for help or go to the discord

Yes but imo, having a somewhat more official team would be really helpful.

This also means I shouldn't qualify to be a mentor

And neither.should most of the mentor.team.

There is no reason to have volunteer positions going forward

Period

I disagree with you personally.
In my opinion, volunteer positions are very helpful in many ways. There are many places where volunteering to help is something that could even be required.

For instance, moderation doesn't seem very easy to have as a paid position, and getting rid of moderation would be pretty bad.

Unless neos becomes very very profitable, I don't think they could afford paying people to just play the game and hop around worlds and that's it. Development you can pay for the time spent developing the game, for instance.

No, there's usually a ticket based system

The issue there, is that it's harder to moderate consistently

And there's many things you can't catch.

Iirc vrchat mods actually hop about

Same with mods for games.like.tower unite

They are unpaid and hop about, investigate reports, etc.

Moderators?

Neos raised from several estimates more cash than VRC has in it's entire series funding run

"not profitable"

It's the cost of doing business

It won't be profitable until these things are implemented

Jesus

No, I believe that managing mods as a paid position unless you eliminate alot of the user-facing aspects of the staff team is pretty impossible

Pog

There shouldn't be any user facing aspects of the staff team unless they are community outreach

Like Turk was

I dunno, I'd disagree with that tbh
I feel like the best way to develop some kinda platform is to be developing something you yourself can partake in, and not something that's just focused on profit and that's about it.

The best way to create something that everyone can be happy with is mostly focusing on the community over profit, but still keeping profit in mind.

For instance, there are ways to profit while still being a very community facing platform.

Some of the biggest issues with something like tower unite are the fact they place themselves way above the community, for instance. And fixing things that are issues, can take years unless it'll lose them profit if they don't fix it.

And even tower has unpaid volunteer moderators

But towers moderators are way less community facing, very "professional" when they do face the community, only really respond through email, and just ignore most emails.

When you try and put yourself away from the community, it ends up resulting in an unhappy community.

Vrchat is mostly popular because it came at the right time to get lots of funding, plus it's still the only real competition..and they keep adding things, but there are still issues that need to be addressed that they just don't seem to address

Neos' main issues right now boil down to them not listening to the community at all seemingly, and now there's.this halt of development which is just making things worse.tbh

They have issues themselves they need to fix

If you look at things like YouTube, Twitter, etc.

Almost everything about the teams are not user-facing or community-facing, the only reason they're still so profitable is because they came at the right time,.and there is still no good competition at all, because making competition is hard and expensive.

But if you look at the community, there are so many that are unhappy with the platforms, despite the fact they are profitable

Most of the time people get issues solved by getting community support and getting the community facing part to recognize them, which is hard, but most of those platforms are.not user-facing.

Basically, I'm saying I disagree with this.

I think a staff team that is reachable by users, or atleast responsive, caring about the community, etc. Is a very needed thing.

I'm not saying even neos does it rgiut tbh

Right*

Neos doesn't feel like it has that, it doesn't feel like it's had that since... early 2020 maybe?

Yeah, thats an issue tbh, in my opinion.

True, but I feel that having dev teams interact with the community means getting a better understanding of people's issues

Instead of just looking at tickets and such

Because it's easy to not really recognize something as a problem if you don't actually see anyone caring about it except a couple people reporting it

Because the amount of people who actually will submit a ticket and such is pretty small

I once got a bug in tower fixed finally by directly asking the creator when he joined a world to test something

When he was gonna fix it

And then he fixed it that day

After multiple years of it going unfixed.

It's easy to push something aside and forget about it

Yeah that's the issue, gaging the priority yourself is different from what the community may prioritize things as

I.e. To the neos devs, fixing stuff like floating point bugs is a low priority

But in a consumer facing situation, floating point errors make things a mess and make the game look buggy.

I don't think they should intake all of it themselves

But I feel having devs actually interact with the community is something good

I think it is if you want something very good that people will continue to love for years and years

Yeah

Not huge company stuff but

I've made stuff for a couple people directly

Not many users, but like

No?

And I'm not saying they go around asking for feedback

But being around to see the issues and hear people talking about issues and stuff

Is something that helps

Getting feedback from every single person is impossible

I happily would

Lmao

The shit premise of.. The devs interacting with the community.

It is pretty scalable lmao

I mean, that kinda comes naturally through interacting and partaking in the community

Okay lmao.

Imo facing the community and being a part of it is a strong point as a dev team of a game

I mean... I think the stagnation is due to the legal battle between Karel and frooxius but..
Sure.

Lol

Yes, I'm not saying they go to every person and collect feedback from every person

I'm saying having them.partake in the community and stuff is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Mods I feel shouldnt just sit in an office waiting for tickets, but partaking in the community yes

Lol

Just coming back to... all this.

I'm actually a bit shocked. Back in HiFi, this was par for the course. You hear the infamous ding and knew that you had to be in the new user area to provide support. Granted, we were paid for the position, but even if say a mentor was 'paid' with additional storage, part of the agreement to the mentor title should be the expectation of actually providing aid to new users on some agreed upon time or at least some minimal time per week or so.

I agree tbh

The fact that they'd get rid of the idea of a mentor alert system when the whole idea of mentors is helping new people right now is kind of a mess.
Yeah not everyone can be on to provide but.. The amount there are, getting a notification, atleast one should be able to help probably

Volunteers are great and all, but there is also a reluctance to provide support that someone, who more or less is doing the same thing, is being paid for. There is helping out, which even post-employment, I still did, but if it's a case of something you'd expect to be supplied in say a new user experience or part of a technical aid that the team should be accounted for... eventually you just wave it off.

They didn't most of the time, that was the issue. There were plenty of people on, just not helping.

Thats kind of annoying x.x
I'd really like an alert system if I become a mentor so I cna know if people need help.

That being said, there should be, IMO, a hierarchy to the mentor system. Some are the volunteers, who handle the grunt work, and the paid ones, who handle more technical support and hop around during times when no volunteers are around or signed in to provide help.

...didn't we just say the alert system was offline?

sounds kind of redundant in that case

ahuh... sure...

This is also true.
Imo they need a better new user experience and a better ux entirely, make it so mentors have to do less work, but can still help people when they need assistance

Imo mentors shouldn't be required to figure out how to play the game

But 90% of the time they are

I think.mentors could still be a thing yes

But they shouldn't be required to figure out the game

Mentors don't have to be the same type of mentor they are now, helping new people learn the very basics of playing.

Here's the thing: if I understand partially what was mostly going on earlier, the argument that direct developers should be fully onboard with any new user assistance program is a bit of a stretch and honestly something I'd dare say is a bad idea.

Ah, I wasn't saying they should be like
Part of the new user assistance / experience

That would be uh

Pretty bad still

I don't think you should require user intervention at all in the new user experience

The whole idea is that I think it's good that developers and moderators and stuff interact with and partake in the community.

I agreed to eliminating mentors from that process

But I was also sharing my opinion that I think mentors should be something else

But should still be a thing, just not the whole new user experience

I in fact stated this a few times.