- 15 May 2022 (12 messages)
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We already had a big discussion about this -
Also, that patreon isn't for Neos just his side projects
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Using ANY funding from that for Neos is really bad move for Froox
- 16 May 2022 (179 messages)
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Shhh let him dig himself a deeper hole
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Either way it's not worth talking about
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None -
If Frooxius genuinely wanted to discourage the idea that his new patreon was separate from the Neos project he would make a conscious effort to address that - but instead thanks people for transferring their pledge from the "other patreon." Unless he and the entire volunteer team plan on staging a mass walk-off and starting a new project from scratch I don't see that panning out. The intellectual property rights of the Neos codebase still arguably belongs to Solirax LTD and not Frooxius as an individual, and accepting money for anything related to Neos as an individual could put him into a precarious legal situation. -
Well if he is doing that he is definitely fucked
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technically speaking i don't think froox is doing anything unlawful, but this certainly throws cold water on the idea of any kind of settlement or resolution being forthcoming -
None -
Technically speaking its fraud
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But that's only if he uses the funds to do any development on neos
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None -
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Ugh
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bots
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None -
" I have also transferred my payment from >THE OTHER PATREON, in hopes that it helps the team more."
Frooxius: Thank you! I appreciate the support! -
Not sure how much clearer you can get
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Doesn't have to be
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cool story bro
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THe comment was abut pulling from the other patreon (Neos) and to support "the team"
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That more than enough to pretty much fuck him over in litigation at this point
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Yeah keep spinning
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I'm not going entertain your weird gaslighting and avoiding the point have a nice day
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its clear what the users comment refers to and its clear he is puiling people away form the Neos Patreon
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You guys don't understand that in litigtation you just need to present a strong case, you don't need to catch the person red handed, and this pretty fucking strong.
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I know you're not this stupid so stop pretending you are
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Have a nice day
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It's discussing in bad faith
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I'm not surprised a lot of the discord mods come in here and try to do damage control, its super weird
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Pretty sure that's irrelevant and not the point of anythign anyone said or discussed.
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And the comments are all about moving their funding form the other patreon (i.ie the neos patreon) and support for the team
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regardless, froox has not told anyone to stop one patreon to support his? Like if you supported the neos patreon expecting to be supporting froox and found out it wasn't, seems reasonable to locate a person's personal patreon -
It's the fact that he isn't actively telling people that this patreon isn't in support for Neos and is thanking the ones that do so. Doesn't matter if its generic
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if his patreon existed from the start, would it be different if people moved which one they support?
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It didn't exist from the start
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You're getting upset because Froox set up a personal patron? Uh... huh. Well, cool i guess, sorry it affects you so much. -
So?
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you'd thank people who support your patreon wouldn't you?
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Link
Post with 0 votes and 1 views.
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THey clearly are not generic thank you messages there are individually written
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nice try
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End of the day if he used those funds for an attorney or anything neos related he is screwed
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thats the point dungbat
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everytime someone says something negative or in speculation theis fucking brigade of discourd mods rolls up in here and the gaslighting begins
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This was already discussed earlier in the chat. Go read it.
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Do you have to put effort into being a complete douchebag or is it something that comes naturally?
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I don't explicitly state every single project I have ever worked or am currently working on. on my patreon?
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If I worked for facebook. and they put me on leave or didn't have work. is my patreon now taking something away from them because users are supporting me directly?
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If I was in situation where I was involved in a company with millions of dolalrs on the line that would eventually lead to litigation if arbitration failed I would be smart enough to tell people on my patreon that it doesn't fund the that project.
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because I am not an idiot that is looking to fuck myself
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part of the point I'm attempting to make is someone saying "I don't like what X company is doing to you or not doing for you, I'd rather support you directly than them"
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SUre
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I don't have any specific project right now that I can talk about and I can't make any promises, but if you'd like to support my personal efforts and»»»>help me fight for what I believe,««« I'll appreciate every cent and pour it into my and my team's efforts where I can.
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The fight for what I believe bit is very on the nose
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deal with it
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its more than enough to make an argument during litigtation
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The patreon does note that it isn't for a specific project and that it is personal
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all your moaning and crying everytime someone discusses this stuff means nothing
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its just irritating to the rest of the chat
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You people are like a broken record
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I've said my piece
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okay?
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It doesn't matter what your personal interpretation is. The fact of the matter is that it CAN BE ARGUED during litigation. You are acting like I fired shots an made an accusation
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so calm the fuck down and stuck brigading
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jesus
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You're not clearing anything up your just missing the point (or ignoring purposefully) to gas light like you guys always do any time people try to have discussion.
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This is why there are six other private telegram chats so you can't crash them
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you really like gaslighting
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take care i'm out have a nice day
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None -
That's not what gaslighting means, but ok
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have a nice day
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muting the chat now, since I have an actual day to get started
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Anything can be argued, but I believe it'd be a hard sell to say that they are attempting to take something away from a different patreon. They aren't saying that anywhere? They stated it is a personal patreon. Not really something you could hold against froox for users on their own volition choosing to not support one patreon and support a different one, regardless of reason
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cool story bro.
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take care everyone i'm out
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"You are acting like I fired shots an made an accusation".. Seems like you were the one doing this.
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>.> <.< https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslight
to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stabilityDefinition of GASLIGHTlight made by burning illuminating gas; a gas flame; a gas lighting fixture… See the full definition
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None -
A difference of opinion is not gaslighting. Arguing is not gaslighting. Arguing, then insisting the argument never happened so that the other person starts to question if they are just imagining things is gaslighting.
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Arguing in bad faith.
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Karel What did you do today as a CEO? Is there anything you do except buyback and twitter? -
provide any updates to the holders
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None -
Jesus -
I'm going to be honest. I gave into the siren call of people being wrong on the internet while monitoring for new user questions :<
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Furries dont forget our cabal meeting of taking over the world 5pm est at the local gay bar uwu
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Bring your own money cause i aint paying you cheapskates
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Fiiiine ill pay for some of you degenerates uwu
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But it's my birthday :<
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Well we'll have to do the birthday ritual
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local to who? -
None -
Crypto isn't to blame for the chip shortage, however the specific demands of mining have exacerbated the supply chain issues. So much is this the case that Nvidia is getting in hot water for misrepresenting their bottom line wrt crypto vs mass market sales to their investors.
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Very sus with the same name double join... -
ur mom sus -
None - 17 May 2022 (74 messages)
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None -
None -
Any news here？ -
I don't want to see any more froox whine in the announcement channel
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Forking the coin is a terrible idea. They should take CZ’s advice and burn the insane token supply to try and add value for the existing holders who lost everything.
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None -
Are things carrying on? I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but no-one is keeping on eye on critical Neos infrastructure like the relay which keeps either breaking or going down completely, which turns the ability to join sessions into a game of Russian roulette. It's been an absolute nightmare keeping the MetaMovie project going with the Neos network in such a barely usable state.
And promotion? Why in gods name would you promote a platform that isn't being developed anymore, isn't getting anything fixed and, as mentioned above, has critical network infrastructure issues. What's worse is the continual passing the buck. The GitHub gets ignored, the "team" on the Neos livestream plead ignorance... so WHO is responsible for keeping things ticking over at this point?
The website is literally the least of anyone's worries at this stage. -
I can vouch at the relay systems are not doing very well. Found this out the hard way when I updated my network with Enterprise hardware.
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Though, curious: would using force port on the headless clients resolve the LNL transfer issues similar to when using the steam system?
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Nope, Neos (wrongly) tries to use the relay before connecting directly, resulting in the connection (silently) failing if the relay is broken. Or, in some cases, it'll connect, the person will sound and look like a broken mess and they'll end up ejected from the session shortly afterwards.
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It's another bug that never got fixed which is now even more of an issue as the infra slowly falls apart.
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You can do that when you create your session urls with lnl direct url -
the lnl direct would contain the IP and Port of the headless and clients would directly connect, no NAT punching, no relay
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alright, that's what I thought, but if Enverex's concern is to be taken into account, it seems to be random if that works or doesn't. I did have this occur the previous night with a headless, but I haven't tested it on my own setup yet
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That's what I've had to make for the staff and actors to get into the sessions reliably. But obviously that doesn't work well trying to wrangle customers in as it means someone needs to get to them to give them a card, they can't just accept an invitation.
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If it works, it works reliably. If it doesn't work, it won't work at all
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Remember that the customers here are normally not technically literate at all, so adding steps and random failure chance is very bad.
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It likely was. Things are much more stable now that we're basically making everyone use the emergency access cards, but obviously it's a lot more of a faff trying to get people that aren't familiar with Neos or VR, those cards, to then try and get in.
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The bigger concern is that no-one seems to be monitoring this relay or give a shit about the state it's in. There's also only one in the US somewhere and given how badly Neos handles latency, it means if anyone in Eastern Europe or further east gets pushed through it, it'll be an absolute mess even if it was working properly.
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I mean he has a point. If the dev team didn't want the platform to die, you'd think they'd still at least maintain it. Is the plan for them to kill Neos at this point?
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I get complete non-answers on the live stream from all the members of the dev team. The GitHub gets ignored completely. Karel doesn't respond. Andrea doesn't respond. So... what is there left?
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I've already personally gone back to VRChat completely. I am, however, responsible for the MetaMovie project in a professional capacity and they cannot move platforms, hence my hammering on at the team for resolutions to these issues.
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Cop-out. You think the legal issues disallow them from fixing existing infrastructure? They already stated they are on strike, that's not them being blocked from acting due to legal issues.
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To anyone else that did extensive dev work inside Neos, were you sent an "experimental" export tool for exporting content back out of Neos?
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The Json exporter?
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Maybe, it's called "ExportX"
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I know a mod apparently improves it, but I don't know much past that
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I've been trying to export my own content out of Neos for some time and the official export tool in-program is... a train wreck and doesn't work most of the time to the point where often when it fails, it requires a full restart of Neos to unbreak itself. It's infuriating. I've not tried this ExportX as I'm not sure I trust it,
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I mean, you could just decompile or just view the source code, assuming that the code is on GitHub or whatever. But I get what you mean either way.
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I have, and I regret doing so.
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I'm trying to export my cinema. Doing it in one go failed, so I tried room by room, that also fails in almost every case in various different ways, often with a complete subsystem crash and internal stacktrace, leaving Neos a dead man walking.
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Of course, none of this is reported to the user, it's all just broken under the hood.
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It's not on GitHub, it's precompiled, it appears to be an official tool but I'll ignore it's existence for now as I'm not sure it would export things in tact anyway.
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I experimented a little with that bjson exporter, but it's not going to be super useful in your case. It'll return a json discription of the scene with a bunch of cloud urls.
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I suspected that's what it did, it indeed wouldn't be useful then unfortunately.
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You might conceivably be able to use it to download the meshx and other assets if you have no other way to get them, though to my knowledge meshx isn't publicly documented. >.>
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I can download objects one by one in game anyway. I need to download entire areas though, this is a full, populated world. Doing individual objects is unfeasible and wouldn't result in keeping anything in place anyway.
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...wasn't there also talk about the pro neos license changing or something less than a week ago? No details, just that it was going to be redone as something new?
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It's feasible that someone could write you a tool for this, but I don't think it exists yet. You could talk to runtime about it.
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It was sold listing features that didn't and still don't exist and there's been talk of discontinuing it (I assume because it's being sold illegally, given that it is advertising features that don't exist).
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https://t.me/c/1314262393/19248
"Not planned at this time, one universal subscription with increased storage and other perks to succeed both Pro and Patreon is planned long term." -
sorry, I don't know Telegram's search tools too well
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I mean, they're literally still selling it AND still charging current Pro users for it...
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That explains why Ive been joining sessions and being kicked immediately after, and same with others, and having to rejoin a few times -
The worst part is asking the Friday live stream team which included at least 4 members of the team. Their response? "Oh, seems fine for me" and that's it. Amazing, well done guys.
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Damn, it's been happening to me trying to join friends o.o
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I can't tell whether it's stupidity, ignorance or incompetence at this point. None of which are good.
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Yeah, this is definitely a thing though
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I'm just stick of the lack of professionalism of the team and the fact that those of us that have invested so much in the platform are just being left hanging like this. Angry beyond words.
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shame we can't just run our own relays
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like, an alternative headless mode where you can just spin it up as an unofficial relay, add it to your own access list, and use that instead
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....or that the force port worked correctly 100% of the time?
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But he offered to pay them and the refused claiming they were on strike, no?
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When asked about this, the team would just keep replying "It's not about the money"
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I mean, they are kamakaze'ing their own platform at this point so... yeah...
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....I mean... weird idea: what if the relays are working, but some of the bills on certain ones were forgotten to be paid, and that's why we're seeing a high failure rate?
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in otherwords... what if not all of them are online?
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I'd assume there's a 'master' relay who then just says "Go here" to distribute the load, but was it ever checked if the system knows when a relay gets knocked out?
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That could also be a thing, we don't fully know why the relays are having issues right now and assuming it has to do with the dev team specifically is just kinda pointing fingers
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We do know it's definitely an issue that needs to be worked out
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I'd say the dev team saying "seems fine for me" is a bad thing but if they currently aren't working, they're probably not willing to investigate it directly, and haven't noticed any issues themselves
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The cloud infrastructure could use some work. It's not particularly robust in the basic architecture at the moment.
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There are a lot of big bottlenecks, the lnl relay is one of them.
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...could just press more heat on the situation? I mean, I definately know the issue is present, and my network is now extra sensitive due to my pfSense install
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would be nice if I could just set a port for Neos to use instead of having to activate upnp
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....sonava-
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That's the unfixed bug I was talking about which historically has been annoying, but only delayed connections slightly. Now when the relay is misbehaving, it causes complete failures instead. Fixing these things should have been a priority years ago.
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Relay, singular. It's just one server in Central US I believe.
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It's why if you're in the EU or further out, even when it's not misbehaving, you *really* don't want to get routed through it.
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just relaying the response from the moderation team that it's been brought up and will be looked into, so that's good. Maybe the LNL relay needs a cookie
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?
- 18 May 2022 (73 messages)
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Karel is ghosting again. What did you do today as a CEO? Is there anything you do except buyback and twitter?
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If you don't answer, you're a scammer like a Dokwon
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Yeah, it was being discussed in the qc chat today.
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Unfortunately that was after I'd gone to bed. But this isn't a one off, it's happened before multiple times, it keeps happening and they keep blowing it off. What did they say this time?
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Some things to think about but bottom line is we need to organise -
.. we need to organise what?
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Who are you and why do you think they would pay attention to you?
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Did Karel run away? -
They can be seen in the member list, Karel and Andrea
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Np
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Karel Stop liking Elon Musk's Twitter post and say something
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He is busy shopping for a Tesla car
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To me? Depends how much louder I can be alone.
But to an entire group with a signed petition? Kinda hard to ignore.
Not suggesting I be the representative, but there does need to be a representative.
If it were me I happen to be very loud, good at getting noticed, when I want to be noticed, and I work for a startup tech company that hasn't really gone anywhere yet but will soon enough... With a boss who is even louder and willing to help me network.
Dunno if that's representative material, but I can at least get the representative noticed by very loudly giving the signal "HEY LOOK AT THIS PETITION!" -
And what we need to organise is our voice in making the developers and karel see how badly some of us have been hurt, see the damage that occurs to people's lives when a crypto project people believed in, a security (white paper disclaimers do not make it not a security) that people expected to mean something... Goes belly up and dies.
We need to make sure that we are represented fairly and we can make a strong point as to why we (those affected and sympathisers) think that NCR needs to be fairly deployed (by Karel of course, not by the Devs) as the primary transaction infrastructure for Neos that it was advertised to us as.
Not some 3rd party proprietary system that no one uses because the alternative is better.
NCR itself needs to be made better. Many options for that. Could move to a different chain or just wrap the token for the big issue of the fact that it's Ethereum which is bad for the environment in its current form and has such high transaction fees no one will want to use it unless something is done.
Then there is the issue of functionality. Use case. Something that can be used to a far greater extent than it is speculated on.
That's its own thing and we should put forward ideas and vote on them.
But basically, by this point, they are already too deep in this to back out and we are too deep in this for them to back out. -
Just look at what happened to Terra and it's Coins.
Some people took their own lives over that.
People expect that anyone who invests in something knows the risks and only invests what they are prepared to lose and if they didn't, well too bad, screw them right? Like it's their fault they lost years worth of savings or years worth of hard earned accumulated gains from navigating the volatile warzone of investing.
Have some empathy.
People die when things like this happen, because the hurt can be really bad.
Nobody expected an irresponsible twitter battle to break out between Karel and the Devs... Nobody expected the Devs after advertising the token for something which has not been achieved yet... To turn around and say it's not their problem, and that it never was, despite all that was said about it before this all happened. Now quietly sitting behind a hate mob further pushing people to the edge where life is at risk. -
This is like step one of what was planned.
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Ok so then tell me. What of the market place? How are transactions going to occur there?
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Even while using NCR in game, plenty of people sold it to others and received payment with paypal or similar service
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There is just not an ingame or 'sane' way for most people to get fiat currency out of NCR used in game
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That's an issue but the main thing here is that NCR continue to be the main means of transaction. Which means when the marketplace happens, which will be where all the Neos Economy is going to aggregate along with the Job System... It has to be NCR being used. Any other solution is going to render the token useless and void the expectations that were set in their advertising of the token, all the things they told us about the Marketplace.
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Which is why it needs to be moved to a different chain
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in a more ideal state, the estimate shown in game should be within a fairly small margin of what you can actually receive out of it
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but to get it out of the game you need to pay atleast 2 transaction fees + gas and a ton more steps
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For example, Solana has transaction fees less than 1 cent transaction fees, and is very eco friendly, and easy to use. As for stellar Lumens well if you have the right services you don't even need to sell that, I have bought groceries with it before.
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which leads people to either use an external payment processor/service or just trade NCR ingame back and forth without ever intending to remove it as there aren't any fees for in game transactions to other players
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It shouldn't be THAT hard to migrate it off to a different chain.
If Karel is doing all those buy backs could he not just mint a new token and give it to all NCR holders 1:1 in exchange, instead of of buying it with other currencies? -
In the case of a marketplace existing, It would also be not out of the question to potentially see just multiple payment options. some of which 'external' but supported more directly
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They are adding the marketplace and the transaction system needs to be NCR, natively, built in.
If a different system is built in people won't even have to do their transactions outside of Neos. They can just do it right there meaning even less people using NCR.
That is what matters most to me right now, the other stuff does matter, you are making valid points, these will need to be addressed....
But this is about principals. This is about betrayal, deceit, and disinterest in the lives impacted by this fueled by blind hate.
People kill themselves over massive crypto losses like this. Plenty of people in there probably hanging on by a thread while a hate charged community acts like they deserve the financial destruction caused and trying to villify and in general just be highly toxic because apparently technology enthusiasts don't deserve the wealth and livelihood sucked right out of many. Many of whom just have an innocent, curious, awe-filled love of new technologies that have the power to change the world for what they believe is a brighter future regardless of whether or not it actually is a brighter future. It's what they believed in. -
Multiple payment options can only happen once NCR investors, holders and enthusiasts have been made whole.
You can do that by implimenting it and making a slow and smooth transition to a better option.
Or they can violate the social contract beyond the whitepaper that has been written through years of development, showcases, discussions on the future and talk of what is to come. To name a few examples. -
They have already committed and I really would like to avoid mentioning the implications of what throwing those who bought the "Scam" they participated in the peddling of for quite some time are.
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It wasn't a scam, Karel would not have poured so much into the liquidity pool (which probably should have first gone to the developers but that's another issue) during this time if it was. But what is happening is that people have been scammed by this token, which Karel intended to follow through with, but the Devs are the ones invalidating the expectations that Solirax set.
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Ok.
For the reference, I am not taking sides in or participating in the whole Karel vs Froox thing here at all.
I have no right to participate in a drama that is between them.
What I and other NCR holders are owed, what we have the right to, is a prominent and established role in determining what is to be the fate of NCR. -
Nothing more, nothing less.
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It's not my company but it is my token.
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It is a security, with an ownership contract, held in wallets that give us the custody, and expectations fostered by not just Karel but other members of the Team in regards to what we were sold represents for the Future.
Essentially they have committed to this to the point that they cannot back out.
Either they make it the sole transaction system to be used in the launch of the Marketplace and Jobs system and keep it that way (And if that is what they do I strongly recommend changing to a different blockchain that is environmentally friendly and cheap to use)
Or they make it the sole transaction system and slowly phase it out as a new system is introduced gently in a way that does not upset the market but gives it plenty of chances to self migrate.
OR they do whatever they want and compensate NCR holders in some way so as to make them whole. -
Abandoning it and replacing it is a very severe violation of the trust that was established between the Devs and the Community.
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None -
None -
This is just a gibberish pipe dream. Of course they can ignore it, theyved ignored everyone else. It would take them literally zero effort to ignore a petition or anything else you intend to do. You're writing as though you're petitioning to some government entity, not a barely functional group of randoms. Adding some crypto vote thing would make this even more of a laughing stock too, it's literally the last thing anyone needs right now.
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None -
Geenz @ BLFC
He hasn’t been paid a living wage by he who won’t be named for several years. And he built an entire platform for all of us. Please consider that.
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Geenz still going on about froox not being paid "a living wage for several years"
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lol so fucking disingenuous - he def knows better
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Honestly, to add to this, this is something most projects fail to understand. Adding more steps to anything just increases the likelihood of user dissatisfaction. We don't need a blockchain text storage in place of a feedback system, because compared to literally everything else, that is adding more hoops than should ever be needed to type a message. If its more complicated than an email, it's most likely not going to be received well.
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Even with my counter argument with GitHub, it is a technical system. If adding a Canny-like system to the equation would improve things, and is manageable by the team that works with their workflow, considering that there are free alternatives, I don't see anything wrong with that
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That was clearly hyperbole by friends of Froox, otherwise the police should have been involved. They were all so close to him for years, if he was really locked in a basement, why didnt anyone contact the authorities? The more I hear from these people, the more it sounds like some rabid fanfic to drum up support.
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Andrea What did you do today as a COO? Is there anything you do except twitter?
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JFC they were co-owners in a start up - NEITHER of them were taking in much salary
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dumb as fucking rocks
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Right, so kidnapping, or at best imprisonment. Why didn't Froox or any of his orbiters contact the authorities?
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Unless, you know, it's not really how it sounds and it's being framed for purposes of making Karel look worse.
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I think someone clarified in the discord that those types of two-way locks are commonplace in czech and that froox didn't have the new key because he never really left the house and didn't even know locks had been changed. the most important piece they omit of course is that froox was never actually prevented from leaving.
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and yet they continue to push this bullshit story
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People jumped on it, definitely. Though holy crap I would not want to have to go through that. It would absolutely spike my anxiety and I have no idea how the heck people deal with having those kind of locks.
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Ah, so a completely innocent incident framed as a hit piece, got it. I'd expect no less from the people I know spend time glued to the game at this point.
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ah, but slaves are also housed and fed, so they must be equivalent!
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pretty sure accusing karel of being a slaver and imprisoning another human is more hyperbolic
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but thats just me
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I think Karel and Andrea will update everybody when there's something worth announcing.
- 19 May 2022 (344 messages)
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We are quite limited in how we can resolve this at the moment because our new hosting doesn't support the old .html extension so we had to be somewhat creative with the 404 page (apparently the team is not willing to change the link for the account confirmation). Essentially we had to accommodate the fact that this page will be displayed to users that are creating a new account and also serving as generic 404 error page. This is not an ideal solution, of course, but at least it provides some feedback to the new user for now. -
And nobody has “run away”.
Just because things are quiet on the outside doesn’t mean that nothing is happening.☺️
We will get you up to speed when meaningful updates are available.😊
The negotiation process continues in a meantime and both parties are trying to find a good outcome but the situation remains delicate so we simply refrain from releasing any information for now.
I have been in contact with several people in Neos, discussing options of cooperation in order to keep things moving in this transition time and while there is largely a sentiment of people sticking to their cause, I feel for those who’s livelihoods have been disrupted and I would hope that the team can have that in the forefront of their mind as well.
I’m available in Neos to discuss things in a proactive manner and work with anyone who understands that we need to remain civil and objective about the situation in order to start minimising the toll this is taking on people. -
I'm... sorry, but that's a terrible excuse. You can just take an HTML page and rename it to php extension and it will run just fine. I'm not as versed with ASP/ASP.NET, but I'd assume roughly the same thing. Even then, the verification page IS an HTML document... so clearly the site can very much support traditional web files.
If someone can just verify by purposefully 404ing themselves, that is a massive security issue. -
I mean, as a 404 page, it's creative...
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Thanks for your comment I’ll certainly pass it on relevant people.
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What Waz said, this is a "my first website" style builder for tech illiterate people and is very rigid in what it can do. It lets you make a website in 5 minutes, but you're locked into it being "on rails" as far as how it works goes. It's also why it looks *identical* to a bunch of crypto websites (which also makes it look very scammy, unfortunately).
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Yup, specifically a Crypto theme too, which doesn't help.
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So... They have the site running on their own server or off a service site that hosts the kit? If it's their own server, then that sounds like a downgrade if the kit suddenly reduces what the web hosting engine is allowed to do
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I mean, from what I understand, the account management system is sort of its own thing. If they are doing email validations, it should be going through that, not the main site. Especially since it is its own subdomain
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Almost certainly hosted with Webflow as a self-contained thing. If you notice, accounts and such all point to a subdomain, they don't use neos.com directly.
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I guess that then goes back to what I just said regarding that, the account system in the main site are two different entities , yet are somehow using one to validate the other. That's a very messy setup and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some security concern with that, especially on a plain vanilla HTML page
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What do you mean "one to validate the other"? The main site is just a dummy show site, it has no authentication and does nothing special. All functional Neos systems are on subdomains.
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I'd have to create another account to test it, but from what I understand from what I just read above, when you use the validation link in the verification email, apparently it makes the 404 page appear instead of a direct verification page. This is why the verify email web page is a link. This also means that technically speaking, nothing is actually validated on the HTML page unless there is some JS tom foolery
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Unless, the validation link goes to a verification page, which then attempts to redirect to a page that now no longer exists, resulting in the 404. If that's the case, then that is a rather poor way of handling ( or I guess I should say not handling) corrections to the redirect
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It's the latter, it goes to a validation system which then forwards you back to a page that doesn't exist.
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I mean, I used to use WordPress and despite the weird processing it did, I was still able to make my own folders and pages that were not processed by WordPress itself. A template is only a template after all , but I digress
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Wordpress is a CMS, not a template website builder site.
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The issue is the tool they are using just doesn't support uris with file extensions, so the final confirmation page 404s.
https://university.webflow.com/lesson/page-urls
They just need to update that confirmation uri on the account creation form to one of the 'slugs' webflow does support.
But uh... I have no idea why you'd tether yourself to this site building tool when you know your end application needs tight integration with an existing custom codebase. At the very least we're going to have inconsistent styling. -
But the existing devs are on strike and not talking to him, so essentially they don't exist at this point, as far as the business is concerned.
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It's now been 7 months, clearly there's no negotiation happening. It's going to end up going the hard legal route, if that isn't already what's happening.
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A new website and trailer were promised ages ago, maybe he just got sick of the old one and did this, who knows. All I've heard about the trailer that seemed to be in development for forever was that Nex kept sabotaging it so that his own video would remain front and center on Steam and that's the main reason he was fired.
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What, trying to salvage the dream that the team (yes, the whole team, not just Karel) sold to the userbase, before some choice comments by Froox tanked the value and lost people literally tens of millions of dollars?
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He was the one who was supposed to be working on it with other people. If it takes you nearly 2 years to make a trailer, it's either sabotage or gross incompetence. Which is it?
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That's not even remotely close to being the only reason, given that lots of people with large investments were piping up as to why they were dumping when the public quarrels kept getting posted in Discord.
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I gave up on anything getting done long ago. Probably around the 2 month mark, at this point, 7 months in, I'm happy to tell people to never ever work with anyone even remotely associated with this project ever again because my god, this is a fucking train wreck of epic proportions.
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I'm not shouting, not sure why you claim I am. I came here to see if Karel or Andrea were responsive.
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What else can anyone do at this point?
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There is no place for feedback Cyro, Froox and his armour of many orbiters exist in their own little protected space that no-one can get to anyway.
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No Cyro, I still have a lot of stuff trapped in this platform, so I'm going to continue to complain until either I feel better, or something happens.
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You're certainly not helping are you, but I guess you need something to do when your nose isn't buried up Froox's asshole.
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Your comments were clearly designed to wind me up, it was painfully obvious.
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I am angry beyond words at the team, not Karel specifically, but all of the team. None of this needed to happen, everything could have been resolved without it turning into this mess, but here we are. People have lost a lot of time and money, the platform will likely die making all of the effort people have put into making content for it also worthless. All my NCR? Worthless. All the assets I paid for to make content? Worthless. Everything I made inside Neos? Trapped there as the shitty export process doesn't work and it won't get fixed. All the money I've spent running systems for Neos? Pointless. The 2000+ hours I spent making content for the eventual userbase that would have come? Never going to happen. I literally cannot even type how unimaginably wound up I am at everyone involved in this project.]
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Ask what Froox's team want? "It's not about the money" so what fucking is it about? Oh, all the arguments sound like they're arguments about money. So it IS about the money, but all you'll say is "it's not about the money"? WHAT?! Fucking... Argh.
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You know the best part? I'm struggling with housing at the moment, NCR when it finally grew enough was going to be my ticket out of a rent trap, but I needed the value to stabilise for a bit for accounting and tax reasons. It went from being worth enough for me to finally get somewhere, to being virtually worthless after all the shit slinging. Life changing amounts evaporated in days because autistic idiots that can't function in a normal society couldn't act like NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS for just one brief period in their fucking life.
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I wasn't "relying on crypto for a house". I've been scraping by and this would have been some actual usable capital. It wasn't like I had a downpayment due.
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Bruh, I don't use simple web services. If I want a website, I spin up a Linux machine or container, setup LEMP, and tweak the config for more performance. Pretty sure I know web servers, but the more I hear about the limits of this webflow junk, the more pathetic this gets.
Neos is supposed to be a technical marvel, and its website reflects none of that. -
Anyway, I'm well aware that lack of empathy comes with autism so I'm not expecting anything good from this conversation. I'm going to bail now because you're all just pissing me off more. So unless you're about to tell me you're going to find the Neos team, tie them to fucking chairs and hold them at gun point until they actually come to an agreement right now, I'm out.
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You know Neos is just known as "that game filled with autists and furries that have been banned from everywhere else" at this point? That's Neos' legacy. That's what it's going to die as, the "last stop" for people that literally don't fit anywhere else.
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Because you've never felt like you had your own opinion, you and the other people that orbit around Froox just seemed to be some sort of cult hivemind, it was always creepy as fuck.
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The fact you're so focused on just the currency system and not the fact that the real issue lies in the platform itself clearly shows what priorities you have.
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You're going to have to point out the death threats.
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fuck off froox and make a new team, very easy.
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Yeah, that's not a death threat. That's not how sentence structures work.
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I'd agree with you if this was day one, but as it's not and "Keep an eye on the announcements channel SMILEY FACE" is all you get from the team now and people who are glued to Neos act like everything is going to be fine despite it not being and shun anyone that thinks otherwise, I really don't care what they think.
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It's the way the team do it, as if something's about to happen. Don't tell someone to "keep an eye on a channel" when you damnwell know fuck all is happening. It's disrespectful and gives people false hope.
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Froox is going to get absolutely wrecked due to his Patreon if this has gone to legal. "It's not to pay for Neos stuff WINK" will unsurprisingly not hold up under legal scrutiny.
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He doesn't need Froox's approval. Froox is the CTO.
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Doesn't matter, they have their assigned positions. Joint ownership just relates to shares and sale of the business.
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You are correct regarding tax though, they're going to get taxed on... 40M+ and pay for it with... what?
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Why doesn't USD fall under clothes, it's just cotton?
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He was trying to salvage the value, while Froox' comments tanked it. They both fucked up. The fact that people still act like Froox is some perfect martyr is infuriating in itself.
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That's not how businesses work, holy shit.
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Well I mean, he does. That's how this works. Have you ever worked for or in a business?
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Remember, Froox didn't want anything to do with the money, he only wanted to code. Isn't that the thing people keep saying?
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"NCR was all Karel's idea, Froox never wanted it!" OK, so why should Froox get any say in what happens to the money raised from NCR if that's true?
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Ah, so when Karel does something bad, it's Karel's fault. But when Karel does something good, it's the Company.
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Also, the buy backs weren't personal, they were still within the business.
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Everything I make at work, I developed *myself* but guess what, I don't own it, the company does.
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I may not use official terms and what not, but I have actively worked with these systems. Hell, I worked with them enough to often improve the services of other people during the early VR days when all content wasn't hosted in some cloud storage.
But whatever. -
If you seriously think that sex on VRchat and other platforms do not happen, then holy shit, do I have news for you...
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It does, but it's not all it's known for. Neos has a rep of being dgen already due to the lack of "normies" and now it's haemorrhaging users, it's just going to get worse.
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The team and mods basically never play anything other than Neos and their perception of other platforms are normally laughably incorrect and outright maliciously wrong.
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If I'd have sold at the $11 peak, around $715,000.
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I'm at about 1/10th that amount
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Nope, it'll be a tax nightmare, so I'm just leaving it in my Neos account to rot, as a reminder to never support these people ever again. I'm honestly still more salty at the 2500+ hours I put into making content than that.
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If I didn't know better, I'd say that the Neos content exporter doesn't work properly as a way to force people to stay on the platform.
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Oh, you have no fucking clue how taxes work then. It's worse in that case: it's a full on positive, and do I have news fo ryou when you have 100% gain on capital.
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I'm in the process of trying to move everything from Neos to VRC but as the exporter is a worthless piece of shit and hasn't been fixed, like the other 1600 open GitHub issues, my stuff is being held hostage.
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I didn't put money in either except through the Patreon. I didn't shove X ETH into the system because coming from my previous employment, screw Ethereum
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oh, do I have pose as a tax person now? Let me tell you something: it wasn't a full 100%, but that's because I had to manually do my crypto taxes this year, all because of my 2014 wallet I recovered. If I didn't consult an expert and get it resolved, I'd owe 10k, all because I didn't know the original values, acquired dates, and due to the value based on the highest peak.
Taxes for crypto can be a nightmare unless you observe everything and keep proper notes on it. So selling NCR and the crazy train ride it has to take before it becomes actual tangable money? Each step is its own tax entry, complete with date mangement, value at the time of sale and acquisition. THere are tools for it, but after my own experience, it can't calculate jack. -
what does a sticker have to do with saying crypto tax is a nightmare?
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other than NOTHING
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oh cool, so your illterate. Got it.
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nice to know. I'll pose as a dictionary next time
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"so your illterate" ... really?
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have you looked in a mirror? Most anyone would be frustrated by people like yourself, furry or not. It's called being a normal person.
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oh here we go
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Neos has only negative reputation from anyone I've ever spoken to outside of Neos that hasn't already tried it. Ironically the ones that have tried it have an almost worse and well cemented view on it.
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honestly, all VR platforms have bad tribal mentalities.
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Chillout sold itself as a "better performing" VRC competitor. Once VRC's performance improved and they added more features, Chillout had little reason to exist. The few benefits it had over VRC didn't make it worth the jump given where everyone already was.
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None of the issues have really been addressed. The UIX/UX is still horrendous, doing anything like importing an avatar and getting things working is still confusing as hell and full of bugs, terrible performance with more than a few users, VLC crashes, etc.
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VRC has literally MILLIONS of monthly users, at this point it'll have people of every type using it. Are you holding the entire userbase responsible for the actions of literally one or two random people?
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To add, when HiFi shutdown, people were more focused on trying to raise its user scores by 'upvoting against the trolls' over actually solving the issues, and back then, it was open source, so instead of waiting on the team to add features, people could have added it themselves. People are VERY protective of their main platforms.
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For me, it's mostly controls or audio with the people I've dealt with. They are glad they can tweak the controls, but it's complaint #2... with #1 being the UI everytime (since you need to deal with it to fix #2). Audio though... HiFi had this issue as well, where the default world settings are trash.
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Every time I was told "it's on the roadmap" I legitimately wanted to resort to physical violence.
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Karel said that he's paying people but they are refusing, and remember, as the team kept saying "It's not about the money"...
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quite a similar statement to the most popular review back on HiFi:
"It has potential."
And that's all it has.
Check back in a decade. -
yeah... I know... don't need to remind me...
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That was my issue with Neos. I hate it in it's current state, building in it is PAINFUL compared to Unity but I stuck around and built content for WHAT IT COULD BE. The slow development was painful but it felt like eventually things would get better. That's why development stopping was even worse than just "no new features" given that I was around for "future Neos" not "current Neos". Then of course you have the fact that Neos will continue to lose ground to other platforms while they deny this under the delusion that "but Neos isn't competing with VRChat!".
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not to pour fuel on the fire, but I have a sneaking feeling you might like the source review then: https://steamcommunity.com/id/wunkay/recommended/390540/Steam Community :: Wunkay :: Review for High Fidelity
"It has potential." And that's all it has. Check back in a decade. 12-10-2018 UPDATE: So apparently my review struck a chord with the developers, and they reached out to me asking why I left this review. I figured everyone should hear my reasoning for this review. Frankly, High Fidelity is a mess. A buggy, toxic driven mess. You thought Bethesda games were buggy? Try HiFi. At least Bethesda's bugs were consistent. HiFi's are seemingly quantum powered.
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just don't end up like them... they got so burned out from everything, they flat out quit doing content creation.
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Stare at a white piece of paper and pretend it's the announcements channel, same effect.
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I've only just stared making things again. I was so burnt out after knowing that the Neos setup was worthless that I questioned if I would ever bother trying to make anything again. So it's safe to say I am burnt out.
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You say that sarcastically, ignoring the fact that that's literally what happened, multiple times.
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I already do and that's what I've gone back to.
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Karel's comments didn't tank the price, Froox's did. The content of what is said matters.
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The shark had indeed been jumped by that point. And yes, it was a shit poll and a shit way of doing it.
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I'd actually wager that did the most damage out of all current events. That one actually lead to a heavier downward spiral on both NCR value and user concurrency, as well as overall opinion both in and out of Neos. The discord user count did skyrocket... but for the wrong reasons.
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More disingenuous bullshit on Twitter. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629302253768933376/976872372575543326/unknown.png
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I want the team to stop fucking lying to people, at a bare minimum
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"A little slow" !== "literally stopped 7 months ago"
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What's going on behind the scenes is completely irrelevant if it's not pushed to the actual client.
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Resolving a legal dispute is not "development". See this conversation right now, this is the cult nonsense I was referring to. No normal person would be defending that position like this.
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...to be fair, things like the LNL relay issue, which can actually prevent the platform from functioning, might require actual attention... I dunno, just run updates on the server and reboot it.
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The Neos team either don't care about the relay or don't know how to fix it. That's one thing that's made me realise Neos is in no way usable as a business platform either, the devs show lack of care bordering on contempt for the users when it comes to critical breakages like that.
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The QC team have no power over the relay, they just do some diagnostics from the outside to confirm if it's broken when I poke them.
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It was, but from what I've been slowly hearing, it's been one of those 'overtime' issues that started much further back and has been more of an issue now. I didn't really get hit by it until I upgraded my network hardware, but now that I have and am impacted by it, I can see the issues more broadly and often
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Because FROOX NEVER FIXED IT
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Critical shit like that which he just ignored and now it becomes infinitely more of an issue.
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And this was *before* they stopped developing Neos.
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not true
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that one I can confirm is the issue itself
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....oh. That's... interesting... does that work with domain names as well?
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That's what I've had to do for the MetaMovie, I've literally had to make people direct access cards for them to get in with, which is a real fucking nightmare when we're trying to get non-technical paying customers in who aren't familiar with VR, nevermind Neos.
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...huh... so Neos does have a similar function to Hifi's domain connection systems...
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But they don't care, they don't care to fix the issue, they don't care to fix the relay.
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The dev team literally do not care about the game at this point.
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No, no it's not.
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But I'm glad Froox is now personally getting paid £3000 a month to do FUCKING NOTHING
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What does he do, exactly Cyro? What has he done, even this year as a whole?
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Ok, so for what other reason do they not fix the relay (or at least be professional and at least add some fucking monitoring so you know it's having issues rather than relying on your userbase to start reporting that everything is broken) or fix the broken LNL stack so that it doesn't fuck up and try literally the last resort first...
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Clearly you've got no idea what you're talking about because you said the QC were looking into it. They've been spotting when it's down for the best part of a year now, but they A) aren't in control of the server and B) Can't fix the code. So the QC team won't be able to do anything.
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You mean open a GitHub? The same GitHub which has now been completely ignored by the team since last year and any issues raised there now are completely ignored? INCLUDING THIS ONE.
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Cyro just stop, it's clear you're going to say any shit to pretend the team are doing things, but we can see from actual literal interaction that they are not.
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I'm not part of the Neos team.
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The QC team literally can't do shit other than investigate.
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You're really going to obsess over that comment aren't you? Not even in the correct context.
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But you're working on them. The roadmap however is not being worked on and thus it's existence is moot.
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It's effectively like saying "We'll add it to this existing list of things we're not working on".
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Right, but telling people *now* that things are on the roadmap, without them knowing that no-one is actually *doing anything* is highly misleading.
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"Community workaround" are not suitable for a professional business environment. Especially when you're talking to, quite often, complete luddites.
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Given the thousands of hours, thousands of £s and god knows what else, I think I'm appropriately angry.
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Also the fact that Neos Pro was a lie. The majority of that advertised functionality didn't and still doesn't exist. We were going to move off to a locally hosted content shard because the reliability of the Neos infrastructure is in question, but it turns out, none of what they claim actually exists.
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I came here because my previous platform shutdown, and I not only sunk thousands of hours of time into it, along with upkeep on server costs for my own worlds and user utility scripts, but also the thousands of hours pouring over the source code to resolve issues, especially when the introduction of 'new features' that were negatively received needed fixing because "adding options was too hard."
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(God I wish I saved that video link for that meeting.)
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The frustration that Enverex feels is entirely justified and he has verbalized what a lot of us are feeling about the situation. In the team's arrogance of believing they could remove Karel and NCR, they have inadvertently killed the future of Neos in the process along with tens of millions of dollars in investor value that could have made Neos a viable competitor to social VR platforms like Horizon and VRChat.
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yeah... his concern is over the inability to migrate their work due to a broken exporter, which is due to other outstanding issues, that pre-date the recent events...
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you can export individual assets, but there is also a mass exporter that keeps everything organized via JSON, which stores position, rotation, scale, etc. The issue is the mass exporter's asset system is not fully working, as just part of the issue
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Did you even bother to read the backchat? He literally said that NCR was his ticket out of a rent trap but watched life-changing amounts of money evaporate after the barrage of negative announcements from Frooxius. This isn't just about some exporter. Typical furry gaslighting.
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It was one of the myriad of reasons I'm angry.
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I'm not using that tool, I'm trying to export via in-game in the normal fashion.
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....Tizzy, you clearly didn't read any of it except what you want to read. We're not dismissing the NCR value going down and creating additional hardships, but that wasn't the primary concern at all. It's just a primary concern to YOU. They wanted a fix to the LNL issue because it's been ongoing and has impacted the ability for his managed project to function. In attempts to move to another platform to keep the project functional, the exporter is not functioning either.
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so the singular exporter is also acting up? I haven't had issues with it on standard imported stuff, but I have had wonky things happen to baked content.
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I tried exporting 3 different rooms (trying the world as a whole seemed like a bad idea). The first room exported OK. The second room exported a few textures and that was it, no mesh, most of the textures missing - Neos was also silently broken at this point, trying to export anything again would cause Neos to just try the failed export again, more "under the hood" brokenness hidden from the user - had to restart Neos to unbreak it at this stage. The third room I couldn't even get that far, it would just ask me what I wanted to export it as and provide several nonsensical options.
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hmm.... and each room is in the same world? That's strange... and I'm going to assume, in terms of how the world was built, the first world was made first? That's even weirder, since you can't say it's age of the content being an issue...
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Frooxes posts definitely nailed the coffin there, at least from what I remember of the prices at the time.
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oh, it's pretty neat. Images and textures I know the exporter usually shines. Heck, videos even worked.
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models though.... that's where the hit and miss department comes in
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That would basically render it useless. It's designed for exporting things out of Neos, i.e. this exact scenario.
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