looking to get involved in other's drama?

why dont you let them work it out

There's nothing to work out. I'm not entertaining him anymore.

Let's move on

then its worked out I guess

im not interested in old screenies doubt anyone else is

So anyway, yes I agree that the moderation could have been better. As I said, I'm sorry for my past behavior but I'm not here to disturb. I simply wish to be able to ask Karel questions as this is the only place he will talk

I think this much is understandable

i've seen a lot more extremely overt rudeness from crypto fans than from furries, but i don't think crypto fans should have to own the rudest crypto fans or furries should have to own the rudest furries

... like, every time i've seen death threats it's been from crypto fans. i've seen a lot of crypto fans just all caps trying to shout people out of the conversation

As I have seen

i've also seen a lot of crypto fans try to argue for a blanket license for bad behavior because they're so upset, which tells me that the specific people who are doing that plan to literally do more of that

Also furry be crypto don't matter. We're all people here

i think orc's behavior is literally average and also orc is correct that a lot of people are just here to take screenshots and mock

Screenshots or not, it's being archived automatically so even if no one takes screens it'll still be logged so it's really a moot issue

yeah but like to be clear, you are here (and to some extent i am here) specifically with the goal of going in a second venue and making fun of the people in this first venue

you, like a lot of people, are likely going to be way more hostile to them in the second venue than you feel you can get away with in this venue

Huh?

No

i mean, i've seen you in the channel on the neos discord where screenshots of people here are reposted and mocked

Jesus 😂 you are not sorry. I don’t care if you are here or not, but don’t take the piss out of people here

Yes but I don't attack people here. I know for a fact people here do the same

actually i just looked up your comments, yeah, you weren't toxic at all

Indeed

sorry i totally confused you with someone else

saying you are sorry is a direct pisstake lmao after being the biggest cheerleader for getting everyone to lose money

Comes in tg with a

“Sorry”

lmao

Do you want to be removed?

(i mean you [khosumi] weren't toxic on discord, i have no idea if you were toxic here because i don't watch this channel very closely)

Nope, I haven't been. I'm on thin ice and I know anything out of line will get me kicked

So I'm on good behavior

yeah that seems correct. i mean i've seen orc try to provoke you a lot of times

I'm here to speak with Karel. Nothing more

Provoke*

i think the unsaid truth about alot of those people are that theyre from countries where there's less education and their english is not as good.

i think this is probably part of it? but like i work with a lot of ESL people, i do not think ESL turns people into rude assholes

i think it has way more to do with how crypto spaces are totally powered by hype — and people who are very influenced by marketing are usually pretty bad at replicating the things they are receptive to, so it comes off like people are trying to move the needle by force of will

i used to hang out on the discord server of an evangelical online church for laughs basically and it feels incredibly similar

(even though most of those guys were native english speakers)

well I dunno that sounds like quite a crowd

I just sometimes feel that certain ppl in these discussions are not to be taken seriously

and its obvious who they are

oh absolutely imho

but when they go into the discord it starts to look like a highschool lunchroom where ppl line up to goad the ESL person who probably is of lower intellect and prolly has never met a furry before and prolly has just lost a bunch of money

I feel like some people just want to bicker all day. If you want to have arguments, take them to DMs. We are here to discuss NCR.

yeah that has absolutely happened a few times. i feel weird about it because like, often you have an angry, fairly unpleasant person instigating a fight on discord and everyone kind of justifiedly piles on, but it gets _really_ excessive

(i can't tell if reactant is signaling this is off-topic, i'll get off it if so and let someone else have the last word!)

Probably at my comments , I think your conversation is OK

i got nothing to add other than sorry

Yeah, referring to others.

Was just scrolling through comments

oh ok! then i'll add that like, yeah, i think a lot of people will pile onto someone literally because they seem unpleasant and like they can't defend themselves

i am guilty of occasionally making fun of unpleasant people who lost their money but i usually try to be more pro-victim than that. like yeah some people who lose their shirts are gonna be unpleasant, it's still fucked up that they lost their shirts

I don't have any, but Karel has been on here every day answering questions.

@mLehmk can help with a rotation thing?

yesterday's code

i think people who think this stuff wouldn't happen in a professional setting would be a little surprised about what kind of stuff happens in a professional setting

like i dunno, periodically anyone with over ten million dollars says "well, i've decided i'm God" or something

people are incredibly primitive

wow. i guess there's no room for civility anymore

oh ok yeah. i will totally cop to snarking at you, sorry about that

i saw you post some of your concerns earlier and agreed with you fwiw. i also agree with your current concerns in that i think that probably what will happen is that karel will refuse to relinquish control of neos, froox will refuse to work with karel, and the platform will stop existing

i think if it split the outcome could actually be ok for players, but not for NCR investors

i don't think that will happen, basically because i think karel has enough time and money to sue the pants off everyone

(and is petty enough to do that)

like at this point it's like every day it's some version of "my lawyers" this and "my lawyers" that. like once you've decided to sue your employees, you've lost

like a lot of karel's public communication is based on the idea that a good relationship with karel and froox is imminent but karel's literally publicly plotting to ruin him

eh, froox hasn't threatened karel with the lawyer-bat, although geenz has!

Why?

i'm a lot more sympathetic to froox on this one but yes, both sides know what they would have to offer to make the other side happy, potentially salvaging the project, and both sides have rejected that

(i ultimately think giving froox what he wants would save the project and giving karel what he wants would destroy it)

I believe the project would get forked once it "dies"

i think karel is obviously incompetent which is how this happened, and froox is obviously highly competent which is how we got to the point that karel was able to squander $60,000,000

I do agree that whatever happens, it's not going to be pretty

it's kind of like sinking the titanic without an iceberg

a lot of these problems came from communication issues, the lack of clarity never pushed a platform up

I hope that NCR can recover in some fashion so that people can at least break even

but it looks bleak

yeah, so i think that one of the problems here is that people are responding to an information deficit with speculation

the impression i get from hearing both sides' stories is that karel has a habit of making decisions for people behind their back, then saying "it's so easy, i already did it for you, sign it"

no one can know but them

both of them acknowledge this in the case of the new whitepaper draft, for instance

i have worked with people like this, usually people who made it to management by making big promises. it bites them in the ass.

it's true, neos players do feel like karel has been acting completely by himself.

i mean my main point is just that you don't say "well i didn't ask you because i thought you'd say no"

if you see yourself ever having to say that, you take a different course of action

oh wait karel's here, i think my time is probably up

I feel like NCR was integrated too quickly. Had the token have the marketplace ready *first* and then introduce it, that would have made more sense. but right now it's a coin with the future hope that the future marketplace will have a good future economy

It's a lot of ifs

The bull run certainly came much sooner than expected because of a third party coinmarketcap listing and Facebook/Meta craze

We were not ready for sure 😅

karel: haven't the devs (including devs who supported NCR) specifically said they did not intend to pursue NFTs due to (1) implementation difficulties (2) incompatibility with infinitely purchasable objects (3) it making the whole existing transaction system irrelevant

Me too but we had to save the company somehow. We were totally out of money, even rent for the next week and being able to pay Azure was quite a problem.

i seem to remember this being a conversation that was had before and everyone but you reaching the opposite conclusion

I completely understand that position, and I'm sorry it turned out the way it did. I hope a solution can be found, I really do love the platform that's been created, and I would hate for people to leave this project with a burned hole in their pockets

We actually use github

Yes, the discord is used for questions and the like

To be frank the main difficulty is that We still don’t have the licensing system to track ownerships. NFTs being not that sustainable in terms of co2 and ewaste footprint is somewhat problematic too to me personally.

Something like zendesk?

i mean ok but on a basic level, why are you making promises for the devs when the entire team has said they don't want to work with you

they have literally said they want to do the opposite of what you're saying they will do

i am less invested with nfts here and more that this seems like a fairly blatant case of karel making promises for people who aren't in the room

I personally do not agree with NFTs, I think the purposes they aim to solve don't fit quite well with the gaming ecosystem

which is the reason karel is in this situation in the first place

I think NFT may not make sense for things that are “infinitly repurchasable” basically meaning funguble. Which is the opposite of what are NFTs supposed to do. But i tink there is no reason why that couldn’t be handled by the Neos Licensing Sustem alone and only make NFT records optional.

like, literally the reason karel's last buybackwall depleted in an hour is that karel made a promise for someone who immediately said "actually, i intend to do the opposite"

(understood btw, thank you!)

Karel, do you think it's fair to say that the NFT implementation was a solution in search of a problem? I might be missing something

it was mostly just to prevent duplicates, if I understand correctly?

from my perspective it is whack, when your devs have a history of saying "we don't intend to pursue NFTs" and your devs have recently said "we will not work with you at all," to say "yeah, i'm going to get the devs working on NFTs, it's going to be great"

i would have a very hard time saying that and feeling sincere because it would seem so obvious to me that it wasn't going to happen

So Neos doesn’t have NFT integration yet, but in generall for example the ETH NFTs I feel like have some very good use cases. For example Uniswap V3 liquidity pools are NFTs. Not sure about the art stuff though, bit on a fence there. But I get why some people like having a record on the blockchain, why not.

I definitely wouldn't sell any of my music as NFTs.

The stories I'm hearing about theft around them is way too prevalent

i mean predictably this conversation has been derailed into a verbose dissection of the technical merits of nfts instead of the apparent grift that is happening in this actual channel

(i only asked the original question to see if karel was reading my messages at all — i basically expected him to ignore anything that made him look bad)

prime has explicitly said he will not work with karel

that went down in the discord this morning

geenz outright threatened to sue karel

Not reading all messages in here but enjoying popping in from time to time. Thank you so much everyone for a nice civil, balanced discussion. 🙏

Prime would not continue working with Karel

Also I'm not sure if prime could entirely replace Froox

And you also have to keep in consideration that the team is very tightly knit, I don't think they would allow themselves to be separated and continue as if nothing happened

i mean from my pov you respond to technical questions by saying "oh yeah, here's how i'm gonna pump ncr" but when someone points out "you made a public statement that turned out to be a lie, it tanked NCR again," you wait for the conversation to move on and then post about Uniswap

Haha the Whitepaper 1.06 is not a lie, it is really what we are going with. What tanked NCR was Frooxes statement after that.

it's not just the signature — you spent days before representing that you like, almost had an agreement with froox and tings were going to be great

immediately after, the entire dev team said they didn't get to see it until a few hours before you posted it, and they never wanted to work with you again

Yeah I know those guys are Frooxes friends first and foremost. A different dev team will have to work on things like the optional NFT support.

what are you gonna do, fire them?

Don’t see a reason to. Will provide and actually have offered to provide funding so they can independently work on the Neos Engine. No reason one dev team has to do everything.

It’s healthy to have multiple.

i think my question is actually mistaken, given that they've said they don't want to work with you — it sounds to me like effectively they have quit

(and importantly, two of them aside from Froox have publicly said they will not work with Karel)

i'm not touching that argument with a 10 foot pole

yeah ok so the fundamental problem imho is that karel is making promises on behalf of an old team that wants nothing to do with him and a new team that doesn't exist

it's also unclear what parts of the IP karel owns (although i happen to suspect "all of it")

Well they are not Neos shareholders or founders. There has to be a hierarchy in a company. An egalitarian company would never get anywhere as all decisions will be blocked by people who think otherwise.

i mean you can't be the king of 0 people though

if everyone decides not to work with you then you are just some guy

Not saying the current Froox dev team will work on NFTs. Thats very unlikely.

it sounds to me like the current team literally will not work with you at all, based on the posts they made

i asked if you would fire them but to me it sounds like they have quit

Totally I’m trying to find out whether they will be willing to work on Neos independently or just not at all. Certainly not imagining we will work together directly. I’m not naive and frankly don’t want to work with someone who tanked ncr so hard and is attacking my every decision. Probably not a mendable relationship.

i'm worried those four coders are engaging in wishful thinking, but big if true

from what I'm aware, several developers did not sign any contract

that's what some of them said, although geenz later revised his claim to "signed an NDA, but not a contract that assigned ownership of the code" which has my eyebrow up

Froox has made it clear that their responsibilities are segregated and he doesn’t need a nod from karel on development too. So I really don’t see the problem with unilaterally releasing a crypto white paper, that is a mere incremental update on the previous one. The dev team just want karel out, no specific justification needed. However I do think karel painted too rosy a picture in regards to joint statement, which made ppl continue to invest. That was misleading, and problematic.

yes, that was his point

i agree, i'm just wondering what the contract actually said!!

We're never going to see that lol

i guess this is tangential, but i've run into several people who signed inventions agreements who had pretty rosy ideas about what the inventions agreements said they could do

It’s not like the coders own all of Neos IP, it would be a two way stalemate with Neos having a better way out. There are also some arguments to be made regarding an implicit license they have provided by knowing how and by what entity their work was used and being clearly volunteers. A series of very complex lawsuits. I hope we will reach an agreement instead but the company has to be prepared for any eventuality.

and then i've run into other people at the same employers with the same agreements who opined that they had much less freedom, and that made more sense

this certainly sounds like "well, if they don't do what i want, i'll replace them all or burn the product down!"

I still don't understand what makes neos and NCR completely unseparetable. I firmly believe that NCR could grow as a side project, with much less, see free, transaction fees so you would still have an advantage over any other payment option

None

i guess from my perspective, if we say "ok, what if karel's not the asshole" — like if we pretended this was a parallel situation where karel's a furry and all the devs are bitcoiners and they boycott it because karel _won't_ do crypto — in that world i would expect the internet to say "... yeah, karel probably wins that legal dispute!"

Well I still do want to reach an agreement. I have sent the memorandum and whitepaper to Froox in the same email so thats probably why I had those two actions somewhat interconnected in my thoughts.

and i just think the verdict would be the same in both cases, even though the party i side with probably is different in case 1 than in case 2

like based on what we know karel seems like kind of a dick, but i'm not convinced karel is kind of a dick in any ways that are legally relevant, and we can construct cases where the person who looks like a dick is froox and in that case we would expect the same outcome

(apologies for saying "suppose karel was a furry" btw — i am sure karel will recover! in general i've been pretty rude, i hope i haven't been too rude.)

Certainly not replace, I would like them to continue working. Just adding more teams that can work on the things they cant or don’t have the time for. As is in any larger company. It has to happen sooner or later anyways.

ok, i get you!!

this guy is right we need to find a solution and get back on track Karel

oh ok i maybe follow you, not sure yet!

wait that's not what i'm talking about i think? not sure

i'm just saying that like, i think the legal argument the team is making would seem highly dubious if i wasn't already inclined to side with them. i'm not talking about who's right or the future of the project

like if i knew nothing about the parties but their roles and contracts, i would probably expect the court to side with karel on the ip issues

(for basically the reasons karel has posted)

indeed, if the team have not signed any contract that hands over the IP, they have a very solid case to protect it

i think karel's argument is that if karel told them "write this thing for Neos and we'll use it" and they wrote it, that implicitly licenses Neos to use it

I'm not sure on how binding a verbal contract is

i am not actually sure if this is true, but i think a lot of informal employment would be really really complicated if karel was wrong

probably not very

(i'm not a lawyer!!!)

Me neither

just my opinions

i bopped a lawfriend but they didn't opine, which could mean they don't know or could mean they don't really care

Without legally binding equity in Solirax, the only two people that the court will acknowledge as owners of Neos is Karel and Tomas with individual 42.5% stakes. At the end of the day if it does go to court the most likely scenario is a perpetual rights license granted to both parties over the codebase with a liquidation and split of non-IP assets.

It came to light in the discord that Froox got locked in the house when he was trying to move out. If it's not too personal of a topic, what happened there?

that sounds like a super plausible outcome to me based on the little i know! (and thank you)

it is suspected locks got changed, but froox didn't receive a copy of the new key

probably wasn't malicious

I also wonder why he didn't find out any sooner that the key was wrong

like didn't he try to leave the house in all that time?

Lol yeah we have changed locks about 3 years ago but there was always a key in them on the inside. As Froox never went out he didn’t know the locks have changed.

you know, i wouldn't be surprised! i'm gonna grill my buddy on this before i spread rumors any further

If it goes to court froox is in a bad place, his statements did a lot of damages to the company assets and reputation, at this point it is sabotage

No he doesn’t want to go out at all, sometimes for a trip with prossessor Klan who came a lot for visits or to a doctor but I had to take him always.

btw, let's not attack froox on his habits of going out. I personally am an introvert and I can fully relate to not going outside for long periods of time

this is outside the scope of the conversation

It's still very uneasy to hear about that having happened, being locked in, even if it seems to have been by accident. Something like that shouldn't happen

That sounds a lot more reasonable lol. I kept hearing people say he was locked in and forced to code. But that take seemed a little excessive.

It’s his own thing and even though I have advised for him to go out at least sometimes and sleep more regularly he is his own legally competent person.

i mean i heard karel broke both his legs and superglued his hands to the keyboard, but it's probably just a rumor

What? Who said that?

Totally that was an unfortunate accident. Would not happen if I knew he wants to leave that day or at all. Going out was not something he did ever so I was not too careful about leaving the key there at all times. Sometimes I took it with me when going out and left it in a jacket or something. I did let him out after he knocked at my apartment doors though.

I was bit startled because he never did that (wrote on Discord as he liked me to do as well)

This is Neos Metaverse telegram (not just ncr)

It was brought up be the other side so we kinda have to react to that

Wouldnt talk about it otherwise for sure

let's move on

When I get accused publicly I have to explain myself and the situation, now way around that. That is something the person making the accusations has to take in consideration.

No, karel, that wasn't what was being said

we simply asked if the locks had been changed, nothing more

I don’t think I can come to an agreement with Probable or another friend of Froox without an agreement with Froox. That has to come first.

I'm sorry if there has been a misunderstanding

Haha yeah if I say yes without context then it will make no sense at all.

I honestly do not want to know the backstory

all I wanted to know was "Were they changed at some point when froox didn't know", yes was enough

but let's not harp on that

we got our answer, let's move on

The reason why Froox didn’t know that the locks did change a long time ago is important and not usual at all. Usually a person knows when there is such change in the place they live at. As they go at least for shopping or something.

omg

please

stop

let's move on

Karel you should do a little stop to the discord, a bunch of lovely things being said about you as usual 🤫😝

Not going to that hellhole ever again😄

Can’t you talk to Frooxius face to face? Would it be more easier to negotiate with him?

Ok there’s nothing professional about this issue…

I actually think that a personal meeting with a mediator who does this for a living could he very helpful.

Karel Will developers be hired for the project..?

Like couple’s therapy?

I’ve already mentioned it before to Froox and will propose it again. I think it’s a good idea.

*Googles marriage counseling in Prague*

https://consensus.cz/en/ heres one for you

There is an surprisingly high amount of professionals who do this exact thing.

Disagreements in companies are unfortunately very common. But usually not this super public.

Their contributions are tiny if at all for some of the individuals. Not really that relevant. They make it seem like a bigger deal because that would be advantageous.

Tiny?

Geenz' work certainly isn't tiny

Yeah in terms of the lines of code contributed.

I guess

Relatively easy to replace if need to be.

That's why these kind of situations require a mediator or atleast someone to animates the negociations. I am sure it would help a lot

I do not believe that

Hopefully not as we will hopefully reach an agreement.

Mediator will help a lot. A lof of the times the parties presume a lot about the intentions and needs of the other one and then are surprised that there was a quite simple solution for everyone to be happy all along. Super useful.

I’m sure they did claim that and that they would like for us to think that.

Not really the case though.

No reason not to negotiate. We are doing that at least in parallel.

Always better to come to an agreemet.

Both sides need to show good faith

💛💛💛

Just wanna make it clear: you’re not minimizing their contribution, but just saying if it comes to the worst case scenario, their codes would be very easy to be replaced after the fact. Correct?

Yeah, I’m very grateful for their awesome work. Just not that relevant for the IP dispute if it comes to that.

That’s fair.

I hope that new developers will be hired to keep the project going

Hopefully we can keep both the existing ones for Neos core and new for other things to help with other aspects. But things not always go according to the best scenario. Have to be ready for all scenarios. 👍

Is it really possible ? It's like they are unwiling to..

I feel like if they had complete autonomy they might accept. We’ll see.

yeah i think at this point karel is saying "well, i'm not going to close the door if they want to do stuff, but i am also not going to give up on literally any of my current plans"

Unfortunately, the current developers are opposed to cryptocurrency and see it as the reason for the loss of the project. I do not expect the best from them

which is a position that makes sense if you think of the team as disposable? i think that is not a good assumption to make

The code is quite modular, well written. No reason for multiple teams not to work on it. Will happen anyways just a matter of time.

I just want to ask how much of the code you've seen personally?

I get their feeling. Beging open minded is really valuable long term. Every possibility of growth should be considered !

What an insane feud over what’s to be open-source anyway.

Yeah I can’t just agree to things that are unacceptsble to the company because of some threat. I view their work as very valuable and am looking for and offering ways how they can continue doing it.

It appears that being sorry won't solve anything

I have no problems to appologise to anyone for anything if it helps Neos.

I would like an answer on this, please

Let's not gas light

I have a good feeling place for the project to grow, but the project should not be limited to specific developers, there are many developers who would like to participate if the project is successful and promising

None

Yeah when my boyfriend says that it drives me crazy.

What?

Can you clarify how I got "worked up" about the lock thing?

Other than apologies, what are the reals claims ? It could be a good starting point

And I didn't say gas lighting about not answering my question, I was mentioning to not gas light in response to this

Please clarify

who do you possibly think is my "mod friend" here

If you got timed out here, you probably said something you shouldn't have

Not my fault, I don't have any "mod friends" for that kind of abuse

I have been having a long, positive conversation here, and you came to derail things again. Stop it

For the future of NCR, it would be hard to trust the current dev team on the basis that the initial announcement was supposedly
Not to do with NCR and now the newest one has tried to sideline it. New devs, open to crypto, to work alongside existing ones would be needed to gain confidence back

Prime might be an amazing developer, but someone who tries to gaslight me, telling us to stop speculating, while trying to distract the convo talking about cheese slices, when he is actually putting his name to something that is about to wipe the value off all of our NCR…. I mean…. I just don’t know

That's unfortunately true, that's why we are here 😅

but that’s not to single him out, the point of what I’m saying is, if there were some pro crypto devs then jt would be more reassuring 😂

I would like to note for fairness sake that they aren't anti crypto either. Mostly neutral, I'm not sure if any of them are Pro crypto but I can ask

I can’t speak for them but I just base my opinion on their actions…still, a fresh set of eyes that don’t have any relationships with community members or existing devs. And that’s not a dig at you

More than an outsider mediator you should talk with someone very respected in both the vr and crypto/nft space..he could help both of u in ur decisions and looking about the best solutions for Neos

I'm asking, but after answering this I'm going back on lost ark for a while.

got stuff to do later

it’s not so much the pro or anti crypto but more the sidelining ncr. Since October/November, from what I gathered , NCR would incur no fees for transacting inside Neos, but you could add other methods (crypto or non crypto) that would incur a fee.
I didn’t hear anyone disagree with this, ever.

Karel stated that in the discord (from my memory) and no team members or froox or anyone argued it

The problem is both, the extreme pro crypto and the extreme anti crypto

My real question is

What actually changed, in order for that to change?

People mostly seem to agree that they're rather neutral about crypto overall. Some were curious about how it would turn out but in general, not quite interested

@Khosumi why did this change?

it didn't change

I don't know about that, I never paid that close attention to crypto, as you can expect

Ok no problem

There are those opposing crypto, because it is bad for the environment. Which actually isn't a property of the crypto itself, but the property of PoW

Yeah they're mostly worried about the environmental changes. The last thing we need is a more fucked up planet right now

Sorry if I misunderstood but I read froox’s announcement like he wanted PayPal or some kind of stablecoin to be known as THE preferred payment method

We won't get PoS on Ethereum for another few years, if we could get PoS on Ethereum ever

No that's not been decided yet

or at all

I don't think so

I haven't seen anything like that, also that'd immediately kill NCR and he should know that

Can't see anything of the sort in the post

anyway, brb.

Sure, no you are right, that is how I interpreted it

The thing that would happen the way I see that. There would be Neos with no possibly way to implement a Marketplace and then there would be that 3rd party addon that would allow a Marketplace with NCR as currency to pay

See, Neos was kinda odd as other projects could have been able to add their own cryptos in, you could have used stablecoins, paid with PayPal, whatever

begging the question, don't ya?

Sorry what was the question?

that's good

It’s all quite vague I guess.
From someone who has less than 10 hours inside Neos in vr and hasn’t interacted with the community, interpreting some of the announcements can be tricky

What would you like clarified?

If X project doesnt have a token, Y project will fork and launch token and take your share.

It has been clarified now, thank you

just like SUSHI and UNI

okay

I didn’t fully get what Thomas said, that was all 😂 but it’s late now anyway

i dont like him

Their common responsibility

yes,they have common responsibility

both shirk responsibility now

But cto's practice is really impressive

cto's approach directly caused investors to lose all their money, and the ceo's responsibility was that he did not handle the internal relationship of the team well.

Their common responsibility

This is disingenuous. Froox announcement was after the release of a whitepaper with his signature on it without having agreed to it.

Why can't it be solved in private?

This is a fact. After cto's statement, ncr prices fell four times.

Do not ignore context.

cto's naive behavior destroyed ncr

In his eyes, there is only technology, but no investors.

Your argument is in bad faith, it is easy to tell you have lost money and are arguing from the perspective he doesn't care about you, but the reality is that his issues with karel is what lead to this happening

He should pay the direct responsibility, and the ceo should pay the indirect responsibility.

This message would not have gone out if (allegedly) Karel would respect the request to stop publishing documents or anything requiring consent from their part in their name, without their consent

It is a violation of personal rights

Do not ignore this context

of course. in the discord

Karel, has running the business side of neos been your full time gig for a while now? Or has it been more of a side thing with the hopes of making it your primary focus once it took off?

Yes, this is the ceo's fault, and he has apologized. However, cto did not solve this issue through rational communication with the ceo directly, and directly declared it. This is a great damage for investors

But the issue is that they allegedly tried to fix it previously, and had their request ignored

This is the impass we are at right now

whether this is true or not, we don't know

You can argue your side, and I can argue mine, but you shouldn't assume foul play just yet

I can confirm to you that Froox does not know anything about crypto, and only really focuses on coding the game. Speaking with investors is not part of his "job"

He does not host office hours either, like most of the other devs, we mostly only hear from them through updates

make of that information whatever you want. But these are truths

to clarify, (in case you don't know) office hours are 30 minute sessions where we get to chat with the devs about the progress of the game, general questions about the wiki and more

no need talk more,that is team problem,team include them

This is a fact, the fact in the eyes of most people

Doctrine of implied license isn't based on a verbal contract (though I should note that verbal contracts ARE enforceable, just much more difficult to prove and establish what terms are). Implied license is basically an equitable remedy by courts that grants one party the rights to use/modify an otherwise copyright protected work based on the facts of the case.

Relatively novel concept in the context of software/code, but I can definitely see an argument to be made for an implied license for Neos the company. The other devs wrote the code specifically for Neos, signed NDAs with Neos, knew that the code would be used and distributed by Neos, and knew that the long-term goal was to open-source the code.

But this is a VERY messy legal argument that is highly fact-dependent... meaning document discovery, depositions, and ultimately trial if the parties can't reach a settlement before then. And then the resolution is up to a jury which...I'll just say can be HIGHLY unpredictable.

team problem means that they act not like team,but for us,these problems all are team problem

Yes, sorry meant Solirax. But that's my point - the company may not "own" all parts of the Neos code, but an implied license that it can use/modify such code is basically all that Karel needs - effectively the same as ownership

It seems it probably would be interest of both parties to come to an amicable solution ASAP

That's been clear all along. I think Froox and dev team mistakenly believed they held all the cards and could simply push Karel and NCR out without lasting consequences. Not true at all...

I mean if they thought that highly ignorant of them

I should also note that NDAs in the IP context often contain assignments of rights... if I were dev team, I'd make sure I read them very carefully and not just relying on the fact that a document is titled only an "NDA"

they dont like war and hate war,but they indeed launch a war,that is funny

At the end of the day there’s 2 sides to every story

As we can clearly see

yeah 2sides story

I have been told by geenz they have specifically not signed anything that would give over any of their rights to the code they wrote

we dont stand for any side

Even if solirax claims everything they legally can from froox, there will be the issue of separating all the volonteer code which makes the whole of neos works.

just one side,it is team problem but they not act like team

Violent outcome?

Who said that?

A judicial declaration that Solirax is entitled to implied license as to all volunteer code would obviate the need to disentangle such code

Can you please stop bringing this up - we get it

The "war" is clearly in reference to litigation

are you dense

stop this nonsense

Nobody ever suggested violence

There is an image of karel agreeing with someone else saying that froox would get shot in a different country

But that's it

Let's not keep going back to it all the time

agree

Ikr how many times have I heard it by now

That's not what he meant.

Jeez Karel made a statement as such may well be factual

He never encourgaed anything

So anyway, I will return to prozac.

I don't understand law very well, you're saying that Solirax would gain all the code inherently?

because of implied something name I forget

Moat of us don’t understand the law that well

It is real

And it would probably be circumstancial too

here it is

now can we move on

this is the fact.The key point of this sentence is the second half, which has caused great losses to many people.

An implied license would mean that Solirax has the legal right to use and modify the volunteer code. It wouldn't "gain" ownership of the code, but if it can use/modify, then you don't really need the ownership

But would they retain themselves a copy of the code, or only solirax?

There is an analogous US case where company hired independent contractor who developed parts of the code, but didn't assign any rights. Court found that the original company had an implied license to use that contractor's code for their software.

They themselves would retain ownership of the code and could do whatever they want with it. But they couldn't prevent Solirax from doing the same.

Okay. So in theory, assuming a split off

They could go rebrand themselves as a different engine, and work on that, while solirax continues under the neos name and works on their version as well

Assuming a fork, both sides would have non-exclusive rights to the code

Yes that essentially correct

okay

I think it is very important to know they would each have their version of the code to continue working on

so either wouldn't be at a complete loss

honestly probably the best that could happen

Neither at complete loss, but both would "lose"

Some claim to have been paid through contracts, but far and few between, and never as an actual employment under Solirax

Hence why I believe a compromise is the preferred solution

I could be wrong on this

Implied license doctrine is completely irrelevant to employment contract or NDA - it is a non-contractual judicial remedy

well, i shouldn't say "completely" - but it's not the main issue and certainly not dispositive

probably, but geenz, prime and some other are in fact volunteers

https://www.loeb.com/~/media/Files/Publications/2009/07/Numbers%20Licensing%20LLC%20v%20bVisual%20USA%20Inc/Files/Numbers%20Licensing%20v%20bVisual%20USA%20ED%20Wash%20July%202009/FileAttachment/Numbers%20Licensing%20v%20bVisual%20USA%20ED%20Wash%20July%202009.pdf

If people want to do legal reading, start on Pg 14 for implied license

(this is for USA law - which may or may not apply - possibly to volunteer coders located in US)

The combination of two benefits, the division of two harm

They are blackmailing company itself, its not just attacking Karel.

Pretended to be "volunteer" but if things get wrong, they are gonna make some trouble.

If they get bad relationship with Froox one day, same thing will happen.

Horrible volunteer to have.

fuck them

I asked them whether They are willing to give their rights to Froox, they said Yes for now.
But I bet they wont give any

swear only in chinese please so they wont get pissed

Actually even worse will happen when Froox is in charge of the company. He might just get brainwashed by their team eventually.
Imagine what will happen to Froox if their "team" backstep him oneday with IP.

Maybe he will cry for Karel then.. good old days~

They wanted to kick Karel out since last year June, planned super clever.
Waited until right time to come and tried to make Karel look bad, which was quite impressive.

No matter your position on this drama, no reasonable person should still think that this is a bunch of innocent idealists standing up to a corporate evil.

most of people are thinking this way

Froox is just puppet or method of justification for their team. The real threat is coming from team, making wierd rumors to spread.

Its only Froox and Karel losing in this game actually,

Karel is seeing this, Froox will never be able to see it.

Nice job for the dev team, company is now yours "volunteers!"

lesson learned: never trust someone who doesnt require anything. Be suspecious

I wonder if the dev team get hired by US entity, will they sign IP contract then?

I bet they dont want to get hired,
always said "its not about money" and now I understand

You guys are getting cuckoo conspiratorial...

On the contrary, I’m just sticking to the facts with minimum speculations.

When all they say is “pay is not the problem” and refuse to give you their reasoning, there’s no reasoning. They want sole control of neos. They said as much.

They cant

I agree they want sole control, I just don't think it was some masterminded plan. They wanted Karel and NCR out and went on work strike thinking they held all ownership to the crown jewels. The precipitating event, if I had to guess, was the unforeseen surge in NCR and corresponding rise in control Karel had over future development and direction over Neos. And some other interpersonal shit between Karel and Froox that only they can really know. Simple as that.

Also the conspiracy juices are flowing high in here i see

Take a screenshot and go share with ur little buddies

Nah, I talk in here my dude and converse

I said some conspiracy

but I would rather say it

The thing is you are looking for a way too complex reason of why things are happening, the team including froox are dissatisfied with how things have going and are now putting their foot down essentially because they do not think things can or should go on like this.

This isnt due to some malicious preplanned takeover or whatever this is simply how things turned out.

ok most of what u say is agreed.

Like Prime isnt some evil Regicidal mastermind trying to take over the company. Hes just a guy really into cheese who enjoys contributing to this project

yeah he enjoys contributing, but noone knows what will happen in near future

Who could have expected Froox and Karel to be like this

Yeah but the thought of anyone on the team "turning on froox" is pretty ffar fetched, not to mention that would fly really badly in the community.

One day, some dev will get pissed by their "ceo", and IP problem will pop out the

They are not attacking Karel, but Neos itself, claiming its their IP and will remove anytime they want

All this is possible thanks to Froox.

They are willing to give IP to Froox at least, which needs to be done immediately. Cus Froox owns this company so thats no matter.

Froox messed things up big time

Also because of what i said before here a statement from prime on working with Karel

cus If Froox gets IP, dev should get their IP also, which is possible threatening.
I believe Froox should give most of the IP to Solirax, but he will not and claim for his. This will turn out to be disaster for "Froox's little company".

Yeah for the time being. He'll soon turn on Froox. The company have messed up their reputation already

Karel is trying to make them work independently themselves for Neos development, which seems quite reasonable point in middle.
But if that means Karel to get rid of "original Neos", that will be planned takeover.

The same grievance the rest of the team has most likely which is the reason this entire situation is going on?

I mean that's possible but so is a meteor striking earth tommorow

There is some kind of justification that dev team claim, which makes sense also.

But they didnt want to work with Karel few months before, and they want Karel to leave because of what they call "dignity".

I can understand that Karel should correct some stuffs for dev team, but what they are requiring is Karel fired from Neos. Ridiculous negotiation.

dignity just doesnt make everything what they do "rightful thing to do"
IRW, things need to be compromised.

There's times where compromise isnt really an option where you have to stick through and fight for what you believe in, I can understand that.

It may be rough currently but once this is all over things should be getting back to normal

And by normal i mean our great dev team working on the game we all love

If it was felony, I will stand by 100% dev team. But dignity harmed isnt something illegal, getting rid out of their CEO cus they dont want to work is ridiculous situation.

when felony, no compromise.
some dignity harmed, there's way to be compromised.

That isn't the situation, the team wants to work.

the team wants to work without who you get hired for... what isnt the situation?

ah. sorry. dont want to work "with"

Yes they dont want to work with Karel because of what he has done/been doing. For a full statement on what exactly that was we will most liikely need to wait AFTER the legal battle since any thoughtless talk now can be detrimental to your legal defense

You usually dont wanna just go spouting off about a legal dispute you are engaged in unless you want the person who is representing you to get a heart attack

Great, I think he has to go. In the beginning we had a lot of unrealistic ideas in doing nft. Making money is not the only purpose, but making money or not as a criterion for the success or failure of a project is the easiest and effective way to stop getting lost in the process.

I'm pretty sure the entire team mirrors that sentiment of not wanting to work with Karel, on the chance that Karel was to somehow remove froox and retain ownership of the full code. Karel would be left with basically no one that has any experience working on the project

When Karel said remove Froox?

It's a hypothetical

Karel is keep saying that he will keep the dev team, but independently.

Ownership of code is another problem, but I believe Solirax having is much more longterm beneficial.

Which is kinda unrealistic since the dev team doesn't want to work with him

Karel is trying to convince thats kind of middle point

getting unrealistic now. I see that

dev team doesnt need to talk with Karel, but they arent satisfied with that

Well.. what dev team suggests is "impossible" as in commercial law.

Removing Karel or Fropx is neither impossible

Honestly, The dev team being independent and karel having full code ownership isn't really a middle point

I dunno why dev team dont see that

Karel dont own code

Solirax

they really arent business man...

potential blackmailers.

dont matter if they give IP to Froox

thats also fair enough

And who is in control of Solirax?

Froox and Karel

One thing is for sure. need to tell dev team the real world..

unless im misremembering there is also a third party but yeah

what they are requiring is just "impossible"