neos wouldnt be dead, cus there are volunteers

but not likely to scale fasf enough

It is very clear you know little about the project luis

can you and luis argue in DM?

not according to froox where he said without ncr neos would be dead years ago

Everything about this statement is provably false

yawn

so froox was on board and tbh I think a smart guy like froox likes crypto (atleast the tech and concepts) but prolly cant voice that because twitter has brainworms and wouls be upset if he said that

he doesn't care for crypto

at all

not to compare the two but public opinion doesnt make something valid or not

they think money doesnt matter. i wonder they will run neos as a company. maybe they will make neos individually runned sw

it certainly does when you're asking for a game to become popular

majority of people were against gay marriage ill remind you

DEFINITELY NOT!

i have known smart guys who like crypto and smart guys who hate it (although i think the split favors "hate" and the guys who like it seem mostly interested in getting rich)

they used to be

yeah and people used to own slaves, who the fuck cares

?

if we're going to use regression as an argument, I'm not going to continue

just saying public outcry from ppl who largely dont understand something doesnt make the concept or practice valid or not

i think crypto is an issue where people should form their own opinions and try their best to ignore the hype and the testimonials

it does matter when it is the target demographic that is speaking

sure, cant argue with that

although i do think that if a lot of assholes all love something, it's probably bad

I will hand out some timeouts if arguments like this continue. We are not here to argue about Frooxius, we are here to discuss ncr.

tho seems to be some want their will imposed on others

i mean, i think taking a neutral stance on NCR would mean "not giving it first-party support"

you contradict yourself

i'm saying "i think hype is a signal, along with other signals" and i guess i'm trying to give actionable advice to people who are technically not qualified to evaluate what crypto is

Frankly if there is 2 neos versions, most of the current users will stay with Froox.
And this will make Karel's neos more business side powered somewhat like Decentraland.

Very interesting competition.

no, it would be fulfilling your responsibility of supporting it BECAUSE YOU ACCEPTED MONEY FOR IT and then giving people the option too ignore it if they want

my experience with crypto investors is that many of them literally do not understand what they bought

ahem NFTs

and currently the steam client lets people ignore it. so whats the problem?

not the steam kknd

putting a blindfold does not resolve the issue

i kinda wanna echo charles munger's advice which is that, if a thing you're being invited to buy is surrounded with a really large number of things that seem intended to make you commit to a decision for non-rational reasons, you probably should not buy the thing

okay then why don't you make a crypto neos

and we can split off on our own as well

current product of Neos is even better than decentraland... wonder what will happen with lots of partnerships

ok so I asked whats the issue? how is it hurting certain players other than it irks them knowing it exists?

i mean, it's going to hurt the next wave of buyers when it gets pumped and dumped again

There's probably no one who can snap you back to reality or most of the hardcore haters in this chat

that will be the ideal negotiation i guess

that will feed money back to the current wave of buyers but it will hurt the next wave

tell that to VRChat!

Simply being there is enough to hurt its reputation, and some people are very objected to it. Its presence is enough to deter newcomers, and general public perception of neos right now is that it is a crypto scam

As repeated, buy high and sell low is a bad strategy to anyone. If they're looking to be traders, they should learn to trade before doing so

but they are gone now, and the user base will be a lot different from current one(who understands more economy)

.

this is another example of the thing i'm complaining about. like, you and orc have been in here like "think of all the people who got scammed! that's why neos needs to continue providing support for its crypto" but when we're like "well, if they do that, more people will get scammed" you two come in like "well, basically, fuck em and they deserved it"

all markets have waves, cycles etc

like the empathy here seems to be selectively for _your wave of investors_

yeah that's how MLM works

i'm sorry — i'll switch to saying the same thing back to you. you should not have bought, knowing that all markets have waves and cycles.

No one has been scammed, you clearly think free markets are a ponzi

ok, then neither were you and orc! so stop complaining

what happened is all legal, and if not, hire a lawyer and sue.

Please dont put words in my mouth.

i'm not going to give empathy to you and not the other victims just because you're the victims that happen to be in the room

it's literally what you've been doing though

no thats how all markets work. All free markets have speculators. its your right if you want to participate

I'm pointing out your flawed logic which you're spewing out here, you're making yourself look like a fool or just inexperienced. If you're participating into free market, the price can go up and down. If you're buying crypto, you should expect high volatility. The only problem here is dev team trying to push the other founding partner out

either you can emphasize with everyone — in which case you should not approve of the continuing gamble that will cause other people to be hurt — or you can empathize with no one — and accept that your losses are legitimate like everyone else's

And allowing their friends to spam hate on discord for 24/7

"people deciding they will not work with your cryptocurrency" is just another risk when you invest in crypto

Nyeogmi has some ill formed opinion that because markets have ups and downs that they are scams or something

that's not what he's saying

orc: i've been a lot more specific than that and you fucking know it

He's saying that your complaints are based on hypocrisy

you keep going "please don't put words in my mouth" and accuse me of saying literally the most asinine things you can imagine

so how about you fucking stop putting words in my mouth

your argument was NCR is a scam because if it pumps itll have pullbacks.

Lets calm down lads

Yes, that's a risk also. Karel probably won't accept hostile takeover of his company without a fight though so we're just all along for the ride and to witness what becomes of this mess

It was artificially pumped based on speculation alone with nothing to back it

and it shouls be killed because itll pump again

Did he?

speculation is what free markets are about.

He participated in the scam by doing buybacks for investors

yes — in fact, he spent 56 million dollars on it

No, free markets is about delivering a good product people will want to use and buy into

Mmhmm makes sense

Idiots man

Where did he have that much money from?

You guys just like to accuse based on factless information

Free markets aren't just an excuse to do whatever you want

Anything to bash Karel lol

Dont even make sense half time

ok well NCR wasnt designed to pump. it took 4 years to pump lol and it happened not by its design

what???

Same can happen anywhere, that's all what free markets are, people speculating on how to value things. The extremes of it are in display in smaller markets, especially in case like ncr where it's even impossible to short sell

like you guys arent making sense

he had participated in the pump by representing NCR as whatever crypto wonks wanted to be — he had made a bunch of ETH from that. he then spent the ETH to do buybacks to pump its price

You *can* do literally anything you want, but if nobody wants you thing, it's worthless

i mean i get that you're just going to say whatever it takes to yourself to leave this discussion thinking everyone else is wrong and irrational

If it hurts NCR is bad, Karel is bad view, it's not working out for these guys

this is what I mean about political rhetoric rotting peoples brains with infantile views on things

i work with a bunch of crypto investors and i've outright given up — and some of them lost fucking big

I think that logic fails as a buyback doesn't pump

where's the politics?

I mean, the buy wall might hold the price that had been pumped before

i mean it might have worked, just maybe, but froox statements kinda slamfucked it the moment it started to matter

buywalls were no match

Important fact that's always not getting mentioned, before the minting Soliraxis didn't have a lot of ncr under their direct control, now they do. They're in the best position to benefit from future success of Neos now

sorry whats your point though? thats free markets shouldnt exist? or that NCR was designed to pump and dump? I dont think you know how illiquid alot of these smallcap cryptos are early on where the price swings can be massive. Look at any small cap and goinf 1 to 9 dollars can happen alot. Neos couldve been a top 100 crypro I honestly believe but not anymore

The market functions to determine a fair price for an asset through the decisions of many uncoordinated actors, which will inherently result in volatility, especially for immature and risky companies like Neos. That volatility in and of itself doesn't make something scammy, it's the process that all assets go through. It's unfair to characterize the rise in NCR price as a mere "pump and dump" - price rose because people were pulling forward the future potential and value of Neos/NCR, and price dumped after it became clear that there was a major rift in the team, and then after Froox basically said NCR would be pulled from receiving any first-party support.

I dunno how or why someone as well spoken as you is in here

he just said what I said earlier but more verbose

my head is spinning having up to 4 people going in circles

well no you pepper everything you say with blanket statements and your opinions

😂

It was artificially pumped based on speculation alone with nothing to back it

speculation isnt artificial

speculation is a right everyone has

It's not inherent value

it's not stable

Look at dogecoin. Nothing but speculation and flew to the moon basically.

😂 at this point i'm just invested in seeing how this story ends. corporate boardroom drama

you arr allowed to participate in a market. its your right.

It changes with public opinion, it's not stable

Speculation is artificial,
Havng a working econnomy and getting a value though the economy is organic

Telegramm double posts okthen

like what are we even arguing?

You know how everything from oil to wheat is speculated on the markets?

that specukation shouldnt exist?

That when the price is *based* on speculation, it's a bad thing

Sounds like people are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I can always hand out more timeouts if needed.

this is just categorically false. sure, there are speculators in every market - but there are plenty of people who saw the potential in the Neos and invested with a valid thesis of an emerging metaverse narrative and Neos being a superior platform compared to any other existing meta/VR product out there

all prices in all markets are the result od speculation. FULL STOP

Just keep things chill

No swearing at each other, etc.

No, iPhones are sold on its reputation, build quality and services they offer

yeah Id like to say atleast I bought NCR because I liked Neos. I wanted to invest in something I liked

um what about appl stock? LMAO

You're making a fool of yourself here, missing on the literal basics just like with crypto

So you're buying stocks then? Which has no inherent value

lol what

just stop khosumi

not everything has to be an argument

Ill just say in the event you actuslly want to learn something : for a market to be free, it has to be open to everyone, and that means speculstors are allowed to participate.

its not evil or weird

But that thought comes with experience and time, some here might be 16 to 20 who are mainly just gamers

This changes nothing from me saying that speculation is artificial price movement while a regular economy with buying and selling of products ia organic price movement

like when I was younger I used to think this way too on alot of stuff

Im not ascribing good or bad to that its just Artificiial movements of the price

ur making a distinction without a difference

ur just labeling one market as "organic" and another as "artificial"

the primary difference is one is a mature market and the other isn't

the underlying market mechanics of buyers/sellers and supply/demand are the same

The difference is that having people buy and sell products naturally modfiees the price based on demand and such

While artificial price movements are from no inherent value

If theres no difference in my distinction and im not saying either is good or bad i dont see your objection

There is no difference between the two. When you abstract out the value of things you realize that it really boils down to everything is worth what someone is willing tonpay for it and if they think it will be worth more later then they will buy it.

In speculation the goal is price movement
in regular economic action the goal is he sale and procurement of products or services
thats my distinction

if you dont think that distinction matters thats your tea, you are fine to think that, others will disagree

we dont have to argue about it we can agree to disagree

makes no sense though. who decides the price of something?

Pump is artificially raising the price of an item and when it gets upwards traction to sell what you bought for a big profit in before the market realizing it has overbought and the price falling again

and if wheat is worth so much a bushel and I thinknits possible a drought is coming so I buy more wheat... I just speculated

Yes The initial price of currency is pretty arbitrary which kinda makes the establishment of the currency by my definition an artifical price movement.
This is fine

like speculation isnt this weird thing only people in suits do or something like wtf I dont even get this anymore

I thtink you are just lookng too far into what im saying

It is stupid to place a buy wall at this place as buy back if something is currently overbought. The buy wall should have been placed at 25 cents or something

I just think you are trying to force a marriage between speculatioj and market manipulation and it doesnt really fit

When did i ever mention market manipulation?

Like not just now but in general

when you say artificial thats the air Im reading

im pretty sure beyond right there ive never even use the word before

As i said, i think you are reading too far into it getting yourself worked up

Everything in retrospect is easy to understand. People were very happy with the price wall at the time, at least in the NCR channel.

None

I should have used that buy wall myself as well

I guess. Just I take issue with this definition speculating on the future value of something is somehow artificial. And that is being used here to imply thst crypto is artificial and blahblahblsh you already know what you want to imply

Crypto speculation counts as artificial price movement under my definition yes.

However the neos marketplace would be organic price movement

Both are crypto so i dont see your point here in trying to say im calling crypto itself artificial.

Unless you mean the inception of it then yes just like establishing a real currency cryptos creation is initialy artificial

buy wall mighta been fine. market makers use them all the time but it couldnt last against the pressure. those very NCR whales were in the discord and reading the attitude of the devs and could see the writing on the wall. they were savvy to see this was going to be a rugpull way in asvance

The arguments that constantly went on in the NCR channel are what led to the fall of the NCR price

That is why I am against having them here

I see

No, Karel's mismanagement and the crypto community's own FUD spiral led to that.

I think as long as people stay civil action taken would be an overreach

Literally the only reason price went down is because the Neos community did not want NCR and made it very clear that was the case

well maybe your method of moddig would be better as I think Neos mods let the discord turn into a shitty drama pit for people-with-too-much-freetime to go for petty arguments

That is why Karel splitting from Frooxius is a good thing

His plan he has for each "side" having its own development of Neos should make both groups happy.

but wasnt NCR in neos for years?

NCR was in Neos for years, but it was never discussed much at all.

I watched as in response, people here who were crypto supporters FUD spiraled the entire thing themselves in response. It's very obvious if you aren't blind to one side.

The thing is with the rise of NCR also came Karels increased overreach

I rarely ever had a conversation about it over the years. People would find it overbearing if you brought it up too often.

The people here saying things about it dying and to dump now were mostly cryptofolk.

Ill be honest I think NCR being third party is a deathblow to it

They just reacted to the community

It seems that NCR will also be a first class thing in Karel's branch of Neos

They were extremely bullish when the Neos community was bullish in the beginning.

Everyone was suddenly rich and happy. Then the Neos community started selling off and starting FUDing.

Go through the NCR channel, it is all there.

Not something like a 3rd party thing or plugin as the devs suggest

Considering the detach this chat seems to have from the Discord, it's unfair to fully blame this on that. And I have gone through the NCR channel here, and in discord.

Karel's solution to this problem sounds great in my book. People that don't want anything to do with NCR won't have to.

so NCR wasnt a problem until it went up in value.

Yeah, NCR was not a big problem before. Just most people didn't know anything about crypto.

The very vast majority of Neos players before the price boom knew nothing about crypto.

I dont see how thats different than now. They have a nonsteam client

I don't think the value rise was what caused the anger. I think it was the amount of people who were vocally caring only for their bags and not about the actual health or wellbeing of the project and it's team, combined with the increased toxicity from both sides.

That is not the same. Those are still the same game, just different clients.

I can say with confidence that there was no shift in attitude towards crypto, it was never liked by the community simply tolerated because it was easy to ignore before the boom

so youre saying Neos be two seperate games entirely?

Remember though in the first month of the price boom. Everyone was enthusiastic about NCR for a while.

In-game, people all talked about it constantly

Is ncr dead?

I don't know what solution they will come up with.

Mmmh, this is an idealistic view of the situation. There was a lot of nervousness and unhappiness in the discord even then.

Maybe some new life breathed into it. Karel released a statement pinned above.

yeah I went back on the discord to when NCR was first made and comments were positive. I think people dont realize the huge anti-crypto wave is a recent thing

Honestly this has to be one of the most promising yet shitshow in crypto

I mean id say we were more shooting the shit so to speak about our funny oney suddenly going form 8 cents to 20 to 50 to 80 to a dollar, but yeah, it was more when the the influx of crypto people that came with the boom that really took its toll and made it unignorable in every channel

Odd the early guys got rich n sour

when the entire dev team says they want to sweep away the NCR holders and pretend they never existed, I find it hard to spin that as a good thing

I watched people, like night and day go from loving NCR to FUDing it. This came from both "crypto bros" and Neos players. They both did it.

it sounds like a minor inconvenience that had no effect on the game itself.

Could always tell when someone sold.

people were upset at the tease of a token burn and that suddenly being retracted and were also upset that the devs seemed like they had no love for the token

The reason the Neos community mostly turned on NCR, is because just prior to the boom, Valve banned crypto related stuff from their platform. This impacted Neos directly and caused a lot of issues with gaining new players. The average Neos player, in response, decided that they would do everything in their power to get rid of NCR to try to "fix" things. That is how we got to where we are now.

hes saying you could tell when someone sold cause their attitude changed and they started fudding

my buying Pizza with NCR post was a fun callback and you have to agreee tho

Karel's solution of having him and Frooxius split with their own development, resolves this issue.

what does the split mean anyway?

Crypto resentment was not much of a thing prior to the twitter NFT craze.

This quote

Ive been in the space since 2016 and its been nothing like it is now. It went from no one knowing what ether was to my entire twitter timeline being people conplaining sbout NFTs

A lot of the hate comes from reasonable places - a lot of minters looking for a quick buck would steal art from DeviantArt without asking the artist, sometimes even editing out the artist's signature or watermark. You can't really blame them all for being upset.

so like NCR being third party or there being two versions of Neos.. both sound like death for holders lol

If there were two versions of Neos, I don't see why it would be bad for holders.

yeah I know, a bunch of shitty practices

I don't know what he meant by the language he used, but it sounds like forked development or something of that nature.

can you think of a time when a game being split into two versions has ever been a good thing?

We'll have wait for an actuall joint agreed thing to know more, anything else is currently speculation

I don't know of it happening before. Sounds like a good thing to me.

SS13

Got split like more than once actually

ss13 has two versions?

Multitudes

Started of as closed surce, stolen via flash drive, redeveloped split off into branches, close sourced, stolen, open sourced, continued branched developments

sounds like death to me. Theyll diverge in development and how will a new team be able to work with froox's code?

I am not a coder. I assume they would learn how just like any coders do.

When a company hiring a new coder, how do they teach them to use their code?

Sounds like basic stuff to me, but out of my depth.

Yup best thing that ever happaned... twice

It highly depends on the state of the codebase, which is something only the team would be able to speak about. I've seen everything from amazing code to an incomprehensible spaghetti mess in other games and programs.

its a shame there cant be another team pr developers who exist alongside the current one and COOPERATING with then

Like theres no whiplash than SS13 development history

best example I can think of is like.. secpnd life having different viewers

We don't know what agreements they will come to, but I'd imagine cooperation is gonna be a part of it.

Small overview of some of ss13 dev history

lol at the names in the bottom left

It may well be great for development

Especially if Karel can get devoted devs for the marketplace and such

And froox and co can work on what they want

👍

Them co working is something i doubt will happen

wait

brain go brrr i understand now

is there not room for then to work on the same product but not interact?

like Karel handle all official store business and building

The team isn't willing to work with Karel, and I don't blame them at this point.

That all depends on how negotiations turn out.

cause doing that and then downplaying this terrible drama is the best case solution imo

Am I the only person who feels underwhelmed by this statement? I do t feel like I learnt anything new on the situation.

The one thing definitely new is his willingness to seperate

Also admitting that its not just about the money but im sure you mroe mean in future possible actions

the only thing I think thats sticky is how patreon funds get administered

He was before tho, but glad that it looks like he’s committing to this solution.

HIs reiteration of "Neos and NCR are not separable" over and over again made it seem otherwise

imo he should stick to that

if froox wants to remove NCR from Neos, I think court is the only solution

Plus does neos have enough money for two separate teams?

we don't know

If it comes down to a seperation and forked development theyd most likely run off of seperate funds

Im against forked and seperate developments

I think we all benefit if its worked on the same product

Not sure if the dev team would agree. I do t think they deserve a single cent from ico but arguably they have a moral claim on some patreon money.

Karel wanted to high new developers to help build out the UX/UI but thats not possible it seems

Oh theyd definitely get community supported funding from most of the neos community

A lot of us lowered or fully canceled our patreons and are waiting for a way to support the froox team directly

problem is theyve been getting funding derived in part from NCR for years now

This iis a problem how?

Yeah, 200 people…

Way more than 200

200 is the average concurrent player count

its a problem that people funded money toward a store that likely won't get developed

whats the patreon currently at?

The store will exist at least in the froox version thats a pretty much certainty, as for Karel i assume that would be a priority for him

Whatever the number is, it wasn’t enough to pay devs i the first place. I wouldn’t count on that after forking and reputation damage, and removal of NCR from froox’ version which incentivized some people

dropped from 140k to 35k and still lowering

The only people incentiviced by NCR to pledge was during the time when you could get more NCR than your pledge was worth, that time is long gone and so are they

gone from the patreon*

the team might have personal money from insider-trading NCR, but still don’t think that would be enough for an entire team.

currency conversion goes brrr

We have team members that work other jobs, im sure theyll be fine

I’m not worried about them. I’m more concerned about froox because he is so screwd

How is he screwed?

Neos, or at least his wing of neos, is already dead, and he is financially screwed with reputation damaged. No one would work with him or touch his project in anyway. The current dev team looks supportive but even if we look past their blatant ethical problems, which we may have different assessments on and I have lost every will to debate, they are part time workers and faraway. Froox is completely beholden to their good will.

"Neos, or at least his wing of neos, is already dead" How
"he is financially screwed" Im sure if he needs financial help the commnity will assist
"their blatant ethical problems" which are?
"Froox is completely beholden to their good will" If anyone tried to exploit froox the rest of the team and the community would not be very receptive of that

I dont really care, I think froox will be just fine. if snything this drama has made him bit of a martyr

Im more worried about how ncr holders are getting fucked by all parties involved

It’s easy to unite when you have a common enemy, when thing quite down and mundane life takes hold, there will be bills to pay and new internal frictions will occur, especially considering how territorial froox is and how childish their idea of settling differences are.

froox and devs want to sweep em under the rug, community hates them and Karel seems willing to compromise in fucking over the holders

who knows, I dont

you have adressed none of my questions

he'll probably be fine even if neos is just some place for furries to hang out

off topic but Ill say: getting emotionally invested in a game you have hopes for always leads to disappointment

cept in Neos case its emotional and financial

It seems every game I have high hopes for blows up in my face

I’m sorry but I just woke up and some of the stuff is just my subjective assessment, so there’s really no point of debating that. I’m certainly not hoping that he’d get screwed, but as you said, he is once again completely dependent on other people, just as he was on Karel. He didn’t see the boom of NCR as a chance to finally gain independence for himself and his company and blew it.

Not always Ss13 turned out pretty well

Yeah he'll be dependent on crowsfunding instead of dependent on one singlar person.

I remember when I first saw Neos I watched all frooxes videos and followed him everywhere and wanted to meet him someday

And the main think i want to know really is what you mean by his neos is dead?

and then wasnt long I met the community and was treated like trash

That’s the sad part. With the NCR boom, he didn’t have to depend on anyone, he was completely entitled to all those money, and according to Karel, the offer on funding independent US entity, or a number of other potential solution, would have made him an independent, powerful cofounder. Instead he nuked NCR and decided to keeping living under other people’s mercy and good will. How incredibly sad.

Integrity is worth more than money

Neos without NCR would have been dead years ago. Now not only there won’t be NCR, he also has to deal with a damaged reputation.

you feel regret?

This was in the past, the funding from NCR stopped the bankrupting yes, this does not mean that with our current community neos cant stand on its own.

Thats like saying if i sold my PC to stay afloat i cant buy another PC int he future or ill go bankrupt

its kinda shitty to use people and then discard them

Also maybe his reputation in the crypto community is tarnished but... good think he doesnt want to get into that community?

but hey theres plenty of mental gymnastics to justify doing so like what you just did

Yes orc, thats what happaned thank you for your input

I know

if it makes you feel better you can blame anyone as much as you want

im here for you buddy

Whats rreally shitty is buying into NCR and then trying to use that as some kind of argument to gaslight a reason for why someone should retain a buisness relationship they feel is abusive and unatisfactory

Im sorry that funny line isnt going up but this stuffs about more than crypto investments

Before the boom, patreon kept the company afloat but everyone was severely underpaid. I can only see it gets worse going forward.

People were happily working on things, and are more than happy to continue once this is resolved

And without NCR to support the money could actually be used to fund the dev team instead something that was not done before

Throughout this saga, what surprised me the most is how absolutely determined the team is at completely ruining Karel’s life, legacy and future in the company, along with investors’ money/lives, and how they won’t stop at anything short of that. I was willing to give them benefit of the doubt because Karel might have actually done something to truly deserve that. But by now, it’s clear that it’s fundamentally a dispute over control. Sorry if I don’t trust these people being able to work together happily ever after

That shit kinda happens when you abuse people and claim they are trying to Financially blackmail you for asking to be paid

These claims are unfounded.

Karel himself has admitted that his leadership was not positive

Not true, go ask nex

I can literally post geenz talking about it

Well, regardless, we are not here to bad mouth either Frooxius OR Karel. Like, it is not okay to go into a chat room and talk shit about the guy that runs the chat room just like you can't go to Neos discord and talk shit about Frooxius. Both will get you a time out.

If they have concrete accusations to hurl they would have by now. They don’t strike me as people who are careful about consequences of their words.

If you have some evidence that the team is lying about this i would be more than happy to take it and share it int he discord.

This is not about bad mouthing, this is a literal statement of what happaned to explain why someone would not want to continue such a work relationship.

Its not "talking shit"

don't play that card, only crypto people did death threats

Those people were banned

They do not represent all crypto people

I'm aware

We do not know the particulars of conversations they had, so it is hard to comment on who said what.

It would be bad mouthing if i made some stuff up about Karel to attack him, i am not this is a bad thing that happaned, theres no reason to try and push it under a rug

It is not fair to choose a side and say they are right when you were not there.

Considering the forum i am saying it in i think its more than fair, Karel has more than enough power in here to explain if and why it is an incorrect statement and show evidence of such

You can't ask someone for proof of a sensitive private conversation. That just isn't going to happen.

He could at least clear up the "misunderstanding" in that case and say what he actually said.

He has that power so do any of us

Maybe it wasn't a misunderstanding and Karel is telling the truth? I mean, we both were not there so it is hard to say either of us knows.

if you say I said that hawaiian pizza is my favorite kind i would be rioting with a sign explaining that you are lying

This could likterally apply to anything positive or negative

I just assume it was true and leave it at that. It doesn't change the present.

Btw i got nothing against you reactant

Take everything Frooxius has said and everything Karel has said and digest it as best you can.

Yeah everything thats gonna happen from here at this point is pure speculation

I don’t care about what crypto people or furries said at all. I care about what the team, including karel, said and done, and above is my opinion.

Im hopping back into neos now if anyone wants to chill

well to the withholding of information is most likely due to legal counsel as its not smart to just go and say everything and anything during a legal dispute.

I will say that I’m not a fan of Karel’s apologizing strategy. Apologies don’t typically mix well with liking unfriendly tweets against your opponent. I hope he was either full on apologetic or aggressive, which the team deserves.

None

Hi Tizzy

I didn’t know tizzy left..

Had to unplug for a few days. 💜

Hi Thomas

If there is , we’d have known by now. It’s obvious that this is about control at this point.

If you dont know what his grievances are then you havent read the discord announcements

And if you really havent i can copy them for ya if needed

I did. It says nothing other than “I won’t tell you what the real issue is” and paints a murky picture of karel being a generic dick.

Why is it aways straight into conspiracies?

Yes the announcements are Frooxs views

Ah so its ore that youd prefer ore detaiil

Yes the announcements have the support of the entire team, including froox, and have included froox talking about the situation that he himself had

Froox probably spoke his grievances with the team, and as such are aware of what his complaints are?

yeah they can

I have no idea what you mean.
As i have said, the posts ae signed by the whole team to show that the entire team supports froox.
In his posts froox has talked about things that happaned to him personally

If you think that things have been embellished or changed or forced against frooxs will... then i can honestly only say "they havent" but its on you to trust that or not

Slaves?

I, what?

YOu dont have to be someones slave to support their grievance

You understand people can willingly choose who they work with, right?

I'm still not entirely sure I understand the separation part of the document. Is it basically implying a perpetual use license for the Neos code that both parties are free to continue developing?

i'd be fine with that

It's not a joint statement, we'll have to wait for an actual statement from both partiest to really know whats gonna happen

Also everytime the dev team are painted in this evil villain light of manipulating froox its kinda funny to me to think about because i actually personally know a bunch of these people XD

Has it been established that Solirax as an entity legally owns the code?

no

Forking a project that both parties agree to eventually open source. I still can’t believe it came to this.

One thing we've been over is how none of the volunteers have signed contrbutors agreements or any other contracts besides NDAs

Also if Karel had ownership of the sourcecode i doubt hed offer the splitting like this

but that last parts spculation

well then why is making NCR a third party plugin such an issue?

Karel says the lawyers have gathered evidence that shows bulk of the codes belong to the company. Grain of salt of course.

I'm curious if any documentation exists at all establishing ownership. That's the first thing a judge would want to see. If that doesn't exist it becomes a little more gray area in terms of ownership.

Is google play store a third party plugin of android?

Of course there is. At least we have the papers from when signing the VC investment deal. That would no doubt have clear outlines on IP issues, as is the case for my company. Not so sure about some codes developed by volunteers tho. That could be subject to legal interpretation.

No one on the team has signed away their rights the only one that could potentially in question would be if froox signed any agreement or if we are unaware of some inherent transfer by law in the country

Right, it seems like a lot of this is going to come down to legal interpretation.

Other than that ownership is pretty clear

Also there could be non-compete clause from the VC papers and that won’t be good for froox, assuming karel will be the one that stays in Solirax.

When a developer joins a company such as Google or Facebook, in the contract there is generally a clause that states any code they develop while at said company belongs to the company. If the devs never had such contract it could mean that any foundational VC articles would be seen as irrelevant because there was never any legal tie to the individuals writing the code in the first place.

He is an employee. He has contracts.

there’s no way the VC was stupid enough to invest in a company that doesn’t own its product. Volunteers’ codes can be a more murky situation.

yeah a business partner

In his previous lengthy statement he said froox is employed just as he is.

Omg…just check that statement

Exactly

You guys truly believe that a guy can receive vc money and somehow also have legal right to the very product that VC invested in the first place? You need to give capitalists a little more credit.

rothenburg is defunct

You’re right. You don’t. I’m telling you, there no scenario where froox can have personal claim to ip right. Other volunteers might, for parts of the codes.

Where does it say that…

Shares transferred to a different company.

yeah and we don't know if froox signed anything that would

Im sure the VC papers have already covered that, is all I’m saying.

There’s no way a cofounder can just walk away with the product and form a new company and set investors aside. Sure they can do that to crypto investors, but not to a VC

I do t have to see the papers to know that. It’s just standard clause.

Otherwise every single VC will go bankrupt.

Non-compete clause is also a very likely possibility although it’s a lot more vulnerable to legal challenge.

Even if I’m to take this random outsider’s husband’s second hand legal opinion seriously , it’s a separate matter he is talking about

The best that I've been able to piece together is that ownership of the code is likely fractured among several different parties.

At least four of the developers never signed any contract assigning rights to any code they authored. Prime has confirmed he thoroughly reviewed his NDA and that it doesn't contain any such language. So at the very least, there is going to be an issue there.

On the other hand, we don't know the legal status of any code authored by Froox himself, as neither side has provided any concrete statements on this point. That said, we do know that there was a VC investment into Solirax, and I find it dubious that any VC would invest into a company without adequate protection to the IP, which is really the only thing of value to a startup like this. Otherwise, the VC would be funding a company in which the devs could simply say "bye bye" after the money runs out and take their code elsewhere.

The other overlay to all this is the legal doctrine of "implied license" which gives a party the right to use or modify code that is otherwise copyright protected based on equitable grounds. This is a judicial and non-contractual remedy, so the fact that the devs didn't sign a contract would not matter if a judge or jury finds that the circumstances warrant an implied license to Solirax. It's a highly fact-dependent issue that will require a lot of litigation to sort through. But based on what I've read, there is at the very least a colorable argument that Solirax is entitled to such an implied license based on (1) devs knew their work was intended to be used for Neos and Solirax; (2) the code they authored was intended to be a collaborative work; and (3) the parties intended to eventually open-source all the code in any event. You can read more about it in case from the USA here (start on pg 14): https://www.loeb.com/~/media/Files/Publications/2009/07/Numbers%20Licensing%20LLC%20v%20bVisual%20USA%20Inc/Files/Numbers%20Licensing%20v%20bVisual%20USA%20ED%20Wash%20July%202009/FileAttachment/Numbers%20Licensing%20v%20bVisual%20USA%20ED%20Wash%20July%202009.pdf

https://twitter.com/KarelHulec/status/1501948472148119559?s=19

Thank you. This is really good insight and definitely things that a judge will take into consideration.

The ideal dissolution is always one that can happen with a handshake outside of a court room but given how complicated this situation is I can understand why lawyers are involved now.

You said it better. This is why I say froox is screwed either way. His friends who doesn’t have much to lose in this feud really fucked him up for good.

Froox is a co-owner of the business. It's extremely common for startup founders to work without pay while they build out their business.

Respectfully, I really don’t think you know how a start up works. I was paid in minimum wage when I first started my company while my employees are adequately paid. Karel’s response to this accusation has been very clear: both of them, as cofounders, are underpaid. Karel received a bit more because he is the one taking care of froox. Unless it can be demonstrated that karel got paid unreasonably more than froox, or he wasn’t really taking care of froox and froox still had to be financially responsible for his everyday needs, Karel’s defense on froox’ low wage is water tight.

In fact, it's unavoidable until the company starts to generate positive revenue. Which can take years. In the meantime, the priority is to increase the runway for the project in order to eventually get to a profitable business.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your first point. Yehan and I just responded to why founders often don't receive a salary. As to the second, regardless of whether Karel was right to react that way, there is nothing unlawful about saying no to a negotiation between two cofounders.

But they're not a US based company so our laws don't necessarily apply.

These are basic copyright concepts that are fairly standard across the West, and Karel himself has brought up the concept of implied license, so I assume his lawyers have found it to be applicable here.

rofl that is a fucking absurd take that the discord keeps bringing up

How is it absurd if both froox and karel have stated this to have been the case?

If I start up a business to sell candles, am I entitled to a salary?

Froox was NOT an employee

as in Karel basically being in control of the Finances and denying froox a salary

there is no denying a salary, they are co-founders and owners of the business

and please stop with the indentured servitude thing - EVEN IF Froox was an employee, at most Karel would be liable for is a violation of minimum wage laws

I'm not saying it's not relevant just pointing out that a US court case is at best tangentially relevant.

I'm saying it doesn't apply here

I'm merely using it as an example as a way of explaining the doctrine generally speaking

I'll say it for the 5th time - it doesn't apply here

It's not by description indentured servitude because froox wassnt working anything off, so the indentured part wouldnt apply in that sense

ok, pointless to argue this - believe what you guys want

Indentured servitude usually has at least an amount you have to work to pay off, not just continued perpetual work.
I have no clue what laws in Czechia that violates tho

Its not indentured servitude because there's no indenture

yes, Sonadar is a dimwit based on my experience

and FYI, i'm an actual lawyer

the whole indentured servitude thing is straight up one of the dumbest fucking things that have been brought up during this whole mess

If theres a law called that that covers this kind of arrangement in czech law then yeah legally it would be that, common definitions can often differ from legal ones, its then probably defined in the law text

Imma try to look for this but i dont speak czech so may be hard

Let me try one more time to illustrate the point. If me and my buddies start up a business, which is not profitable or generating any revenue yet. Who is supposed to be paying my salary?

Does the CFO have a legal obligation to pay me anything because he controls the finances?

Answer is clearly no

I dunno i dont have a degree in czech buisness law

its not unusual for startups to live together

yeah he's the definition of a reddit armchair lawyer who is grasping

This may apply since Froox was an employee of one of the companies but i dunno
"Article 28

Employees have the right to fair remuneration for their work and to satisfactory work conditions. Detailed provisions shall be set by law"

Im definitely no expert on czech law

I remember the Star Control court case. Everyone on reddit believed in the original developers owning the IP and every reddit armchair lawyer was posting how it was a clear win for them. Then the case happened and they lost

this is just part of the consititution btw no specific law

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardock_Systems,_Inc._v._Reiche

Actually checked back with the announcements and he wasn't formally employed as far as i can see so i have even less of a clue how or what laws apply here in Czechia

well if you don't know, then maybe you shouldn't be accusing someone of holding someone else in bondage and indentured servitude. just a thought.

The one non legal thing that i can say on this is that it's definitely immoral

How is controlling someones finances and refusing their requests to be given enough of your shared finances to live independently immoral?

I dunno man

And we have confirmation from both Froox and Karel that this was the case

the more I hear about this stuff the more I think a court case should definitly happen.

So... his motive was revenge therefore it isn't immoral?

Like for one thats speculation but also what?

Especially for something petty like "he never cooked for me"
Like you are painting him in an even worse light

Not JUST about the pay, that doesnt mean its a non issue

Not JUST about pay, the shit he did with the finances is still an issue, its just not the MAIN issue

Yes which was in part caused by how he responded when people asked for pay. As is stated in the above post

That statement was interesting because who gives a damn how often anyone goes out? Like thats irrelevant what point is there to bring it up other than possibly as some insult.

The PDF was a step in the right direction. even if PDF was a weird medium choice

Like it just looks odd like

Heres my statement:
pdflink.pdf

I assume it was mostly constructed for here cause i can see how its easier on telegram and maybe even twitter

Agreed

This is speculation on my part, but reading into the situation a bit, I think the hostility from Karel may have come from the fact that there had been little to no progress for years on NCR development goals like the marketplace, and team basically ignored Karel and NCR.

Then all of a sudden after NCR starts to get some value, you have the dev team demanding to be paid out from it. Reminds me of the The Little Red Hen story - where hen puts all this work into making bread and none of the other farm animals help out, then ask for the bread after it's done.

are you suggesting froox isn't entitled to a salary?

a lot of us just went through this ad nauseum if you want to scroll through the conversation above

They weren't pro ncr. They were neutral

the team themselves said it

they never were

Khosumi and I rarely agree but I think he's right on that point. Team clearly didn't prioritize NCR and Karel has even stated his frustration with the delays in and progress on NCR related development.

no

Dude sotp

You just hate that I'm right

The team never cared for ncr

they never promoted it